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Janet Tavakoli On The "Biggest Fraud In The History Of Capital Markets"

Tyler Durden's picture




 

In the following interview with the WaPo's Ezra Klein, Janet Tavakoli shares some more information on why every bank is about to shut down all foreclosures, in what she calls the "biggest fraud in the history of capital markets." Not very surprisingly, we are, so far, spot on in our 29th September projected timeline at this point: "We predict that within a week, all banks will halt every foreclosure currently in process. Within a month, all foreclosures executed within the past 2-3 years will be retried, and millions of existing home sales will be put in jeopardy."

Ezra Klein: What’s happening here? Why are we suddenly faced with a crisis that wasn’t apparent two weeks ago?

Janet Tavakoli: This is the biggest fraud in the history of the
capital markets. And it’s not something that happened last week. It
happened when these loans were originated, in some cases years ago.
Loans have representations and warranties that have to be met. In the
past, you had a certain period of time, 60 to 90 days, where you sort
through these loans and, if they’re bad, you kick them back. If the
documentation wasn’t correct, you’d kick it back. If you found the
incomes of the buyers had been overstated, or the houses had been
appraised at twice their worth, you’d kick it back. But that didn’t
happen here. And it turned out there were loan files that were missing
required documentation. Part of putting the deal together is that the
securitization professional, and in this case that’s banks like Goldman
Sachs and JP Morgan, has to watch for this stuff. It’s called perfecting
the security interest, and it’s not optional.

EK: And how much danger are the banks themselves in?

JT: When we had the financial crisis, the first thing the banks did
was run to Congress and ask for accounting relief. They asked to be able
to avoid pricing this stuff at the price where people would buy them.
So no one can tell you the size of the hole in these balance sheets.
We’ve thrown a lot of money at it. TARP was just the tip of the iceberg.
We’ve given them guarantees on debts, low-cost funding from the Fed.
But a lot of these mortgages just cannot be saved. Had we acknowledged
this problem in 2005, we could’ve cleaned it up for a few hundred
billion dollars. But we didn’t. Banks were lying and committing fraud,
and our regulators were covering them and so a bad problem has become a
hellacious one.

EK: My understanding is that this now pits the banks against
the investors they sold these products too. The investors are going to
court to argue that the products were flawed and the banks need to take
them back.

JT: Many investors now are waking up to the fact that they were
defrauded. Even sophisticated investors. If you did your due diligence
but material information was withheld, you can recover. It’ll be a
case-by-by-case basis.

EK: Given that our financial system is still fragile, isn’t that a disaster for the economy? Will credit freeze again?

JT: I disagree. In order to make the financial system healthy, we
need to recognize the extent of our losses and begin facing the fraud.
Then the market will be trustworthy again and people will start to
participate.

EK: It sounds almost like you’re saying we still need to go through the end of our financial crisis.

JT: Yes, but I wouldn’t say crisis. This can be done with a
resolution trust corporation, the way we cleaned up the S&Ls. The
system got back on its feet faster because we grappled with the
problems. The shareholders would be wiped out and the debt holders would
have to take a discount on their debt and they’d get a debt-for-equity
swap. Instead we poured TARP money into a pit and meanwhile the banks
are paying huge bonuses to some people who should be made accountable
for fraud. The financial crisis was a product of our irrational
reaction, which protected crony capitalism rather than capitalism. In
capitalism, the shareholders who took the risk would be wiped out and
the debt holders would take a discount but banking would go on.

 

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Fri, 10/08/2010 - 23:01 | 637203 Deflation
Deflation's picture

I like Mako's theories.. but he did say total market credit debt on the z1, wouldn't go up anymore.. and it did this quarter.

I agree in the end a total collapse will happen, but I believe a currency crisis and hyperinflation will happen first.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 07:44 | 637499 Mako
Mako's picture

It did go up, never said it would not go up, no I don't think you will see big movement from here on out.... that is the job of Benny, to get all of you guys to believe in Helicopters.   Whether you agree with what the government and Benny have done... what they did was successful in slowing the rate of the decline, in time it will pick up again.  Are you still in a death spiral, I would say Yes.

There is actually a good chance the number doesn't collapse going forward for awhile, they are stopping foreclosures which would stop the banks from writing down.

 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:57 | 636070 Rusty_Shackleford
Rusty_Shackleford's picture

Points (1) and (2) are actually two sides of the same "fraud coin".

 

'Tis Death to Counterfeit

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 00:47 | 637322 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

'Tis Death to Counterfeit

Unfortunately, MOST think that this is a man-made Law, but as future events will PROVE, it's a NATURAL LAW!  Money HAS TO BE REAL, simply because there are too many people on the planet for everyone to do all that it takes to survive by themselves!  Division of labor requires a REAL medium of exchange and COUNTERFEIT money is NOT REAL (in the long run)!

Reagan said it best:  "Trust, but verify."  Which is why people used to bite Gold coins.  They were verifying the REALITY of the Gold content!

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 16:32 | 636477 Troy Ounce
Troy Ounce's picture

 

Right: too far, too late:

She only talks about a tiny part of the big problem which is an overall corrupted system and too much debt.There is no way Congress will ever allow a trust corporation. Their corrupt role might come to light also. In order to avoid mayhem and civil war the only way to regain overall trust will be:

  1. abolish the fed
  2. stop manipulating markets; do less instead of more
  3. introduce a gold/silver based monetary standard
  4. go after the corrupted

Now how much chance would you give that?

0.0000001%?

 

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 00:52 | 637323 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

TPTB would rather see the collapse of the system than give up their grip on Power!  This is why I chose the picture of George Washington from the book "Dreams Come Due, Government and Economics as if Freedom Mattered" by John Galt (ISBN: 0-671-61159-3).  The Dreams of the Socialist/Progressives will come due -- I only hope that they're closer to Ground Zero than I am!

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 13:25 | 637982 merehuman
merehuman's picture

from their point of view, the banksters view, WAR is the answer.

THEY are in power, they have control of the vertical and horizontal,

you/we are toast, we just havent been fully baked yet but the twilight zone allready is. Not far to go now.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 21:12 | 637037 QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

We're not too far along, it would however require the polis to admit they vaporized a zillion dollars. The RTC was not perfect, but it was pretty "quick" and it did cleanse the system in a reasonable amount of time... Again, not saying it was perfect.. BTW, the FDIC contracted out their appraisal management on CRE this time around....

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:23 | 635896 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Looks like Floyd the Barber is going to be busy.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:32 | 635956 Wynn
Wynn's picture

Don't worry, Deputy Fife is on the case.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 16:33 | 636484 crosey
crosey's picture

But he'll need more than one bullet.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:51 | 636047 aheady
aheady's picture

Otis is gonna have some company!

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:24 | 635898 bugs_
bugs_'s picture

Banks take back those toxic mortgages.

Take back Vanessa Redgrave
Take back Joe Piscopo
Take back Eddie Murphy
Give 'em all some place to go

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:26 | 635901 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Yes she is absolutely right. The banks ran a scam on both ends of the candle, the borrowers who were duped into thinking leveraged drunkenness was the new normal, and the sophisticated morons who got duped into thinking default risk and paper fraud somehow magically dissappeared and obviates the need for due diligence. They should all get flushed down the same sewer.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:38 | 635949 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Wait!

Doesn't the fresh water intake for the water treatment plant draw from the same river the sewer system flushes into? And wasn't the intake deliberately placed down river from the sewer to keep everyone from flushing this fraud down the sewer system, the implicit threat being that to do so would poison ourselves?

WB7, how about some art to illustrate this concept?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:58 | 636076 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

You read my mind...But in the meantime you can proudly display this redesigned patriotic emblem wherever you like:

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:29 | 636157 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

I wish we could at least UN-junk some of these morons who are junking. Give us a vote to the contrary? If not thumbs up tabs, at least a null ability? I dont understand just the option to junk something.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 16:07 | 636381 Ripped Chunk
Ripped Chunk's picture

Really. The anonymous junk squad has gotten extremely old.   

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 18:20 | 636736 Ripped Chunk
Ripped Chunk's picture

Thanks

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 20:39 | 636983 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Life ain't fair.  The Universe isn't symetrical.  Why hold ZH to a higher standard?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 21:51 | 637091 ToNYC
ToNYC's picture

 

Stand Up and Junk with your handle.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 22:44 | 637168 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

I would like to see a link to junks by handle to further expose the Ponzi trolls.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 04:08 | 637443 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Monthly junk stats...

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 06:42 | 637474 Hedge Jobs
Hedge Jobs's picture

and i wish i lived in jellyland where everything is transparent and wobbly so i would never have to wonder what was around the corner or hurt myself on sharp edges.

if a post has recieved no "junks' consider that to mean people either agree or it dosnt make them angry enough to junk it. its not really that hard to understand SD1. ZH is not a popularity contest  

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 22:40 | 638756 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

ZH is not a popularity contest 

Damn right.  It should be the Fight Club arena of ideas.  Too bad the trolls don't offer any ideas, except as an anti .. just like politicians

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:22 | 636176 DollarMenu
DollarMenu's picture

Cool flag refresh.

I can't believe you got a 'junk' for this.

I wish we had an up and down set of counters.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 16:06 | 636376 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Its Lloyd Blankfein, I have my suspicions about his avatar/name

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 23:56 | 637269 merehuman
merehuman's picture

anyone seen Bravo? teenjunkie got a busy finger

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:45 | 636285 1100-TACTICAL-12
1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

Cool...

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 16:07 | 636383 Ripped Chunk
Ripped Chunk's picture

+ 1000

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 20:11 | 636944 benb
benb's picture

Very tasteful....Made my day!

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 00:38 | 637311 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Another t-shirt project, thanks William.  Maybe I can make "People of Walmart" with this one?

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:05 | 637852 Husk-Erzulie
Husk-Erzulie's picture

This is the classic sentence of the piece... Many investors now are waking up to the fact that they were defrauded. Even sophisticated investors.  Love the flag Banzai.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:28 | 635903 Mako
Mako's picture

The fraud started the day the ink was dry on the supposed mortgage that was never given but is claimed was given by the bank.  She is incorrect. 

Banks do not give mortgages!!!!!!!!  Banks do not lend their own credit.  No loan was given. 

Once the sheeple figure out the Truth oh boy they are not going to be happy, it's been like since the beginning of civilization.   All you guys are money changers, it's not going to end well for any of you.


Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:29 | 635927 Eureka Springs
Eureka Springs's picture

Any way you can do a post (or two or three)? What you've been saying so clearly needs a link to go with it!

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:39 | 635962 Mako
Mako's picture

Modern Money Mechanics by the Federal Reserve. 

Heck, I would say a banker would be dumb if he didn't try to resell the non-existent mortgage back to the same stupid lemming that thinks he/she received a loan from the bank. 

This world is one big ass Greek comedy that is going to go up in a mushroom cloud.  It's like a Seinfeld show.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:13 | 636141 Assetman
Assetman's picture

Ah yes... the Seinfeld "Show About Nothing".  Haven't seen it. ;)

On a little more serious note, Mako... you are one of the smartest guys on the ZH block, but I have a curiosity-type question:

Have you read any critiques of "Modern Money Mechanics by the Federal Reserve"?  And if so, what are they? 

If there is no mortgage, is there no debtor?  Or creditor?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:42 | 636200 Mako
Mako's picture

There is an obligation if a loan is given.  No loan is given no obligation can exist under your agreement.  You will see on your mortgage docs saying you received a loan and now you have an obligation. 

Obligation is statutory defined in Title 12 CFR.

The Promissory Note is a promise to  pay a loan servicer, generally presumed to be the holder in due course, a  monthly payment every thirty days over the amortization period of the Obligation.

Of course, you don't ask for what does not exist, you challenge standing of the party to bring such action. The lawful question is to substantiate that the loan servicer does not have legal standing to command the Trustee to execute the Deed of Trust.

All these banks and attorney for the banks are completely wrong it is the job of the defendant to force them back to their dark hole.

No mortgage was given, so exactly how did they get equity in your house with no money?


 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 20:31 | 636966 tomdub_1024
tomdub_1024's picture

after reading (to the best of my non-lawyer understanding, shit, php/.NET/java error messages are easier to decode than legal-ease) Title 12 CFR...and your other posts...I think it is becoming clear...

the sickening realization that YET AGAIN, all I have been taught and thought I knew is a frakkin' lie.

Its like being raped by the man your wife cheated on you with and left you for...

Blinders off...the "red" pill is a harsh mistress...

The Matrix was too real a metaphor, how did it get past the PTB? Their sadistic proclivities, to mind-fuck the ones that can think it through?

Fuck me, I am so close to just not giving a shit anymore, why bother?

 

 

ok, that feeling will pass, I don't quit...

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 20:57 | 637012 tomdub_1024
tomdub_1024's picture

I guess I now know, cognitively, cerebrally and viscerally, the Buddhist concept of Maya (illusion).

Damned red pill.....

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 04:29 | 637451 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Johnny Liberty - The Global Sovereign's Handbook

Reclaiming individual sovereignty and establishing the principles of constitutional republics along with the unalienable rights of self-determination is our most important endeavor today.

Summary of content:

Reclaiming the American Mind
American and World History
American Citizenship
American Law
Commercial Law
International Law
Terrorism
Money
Bankruptcy
Individual Sovereignty
Indigenous Sovereignty
Sovereign Power Structures
Global Sovereignty Movement
Social Security and Income
Taxes
Visions and Solutions
Introductory and Advanced Tools for Freedom
Restoring a Republic
Freedom Technologies
New World Order

Johnny_Liberty___The_Global_Sovereign_s_Handbook.pdf

(slow download at first)

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 20:02 | 638555 tomdub_1024
tomdub_1024's picture

interesting choice...thank you...I love the lyrics...:)

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 20:53 | 638622 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

this is beautiful ww.  sometimes a song is all it takes to snap you back to trust.  thanks a bunch.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 22:44 | 638762 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

I hope you take over the music linking.  You'd be great

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 12:32 | 639352 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Oh, gracias! I have seen some great stuff posted around here.

Here's one for our troops - away from families - pawns in the madness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMgUvVR0z5A

Honor the warrior, not the war.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 22:45 | 638766 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

Terrific 411

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 22:52 | 637184 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

Mako - I have to admit, this was a revelation to me.

No mortgage was given, so exactly how did they get equity in your house with no money?

Thanks for your efforts at educating.

I avoid the worst aspects of The Ponzi, by having no mortgage, no debt, no credit card, no checking account, no bills, no insurance.  I value my freedom, such as it is.

I wish everyone would/could disengage as well.

 

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 00:12 | 637283 merehuman
merehuman's picture

Ah , Bringin it, i too have downsized. My ego still has bruises from selling my truck. No more tags, fees, licenses for business either. Only bill left is cable, gas, electric. I wont need to shop for a long , long time.

5.00 in my account since a year ago. This year i gave the veggies. Next year i will trade for them and sell what i create in my shop. Silver art work thats wearable should do well, food even better. I changed my lifestyle to sit the times. Anyone seeing me would see an unkempt unshaven rag picker.

Often love is dressed in rags

like a beggar carrying a jewel

hiding its brilliance only to those

who look at the beggars  rags

and do not see in his eyes

their own reflection

1973 , when i woke up to illusion

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 04:17 | 637447 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

MH - interesting about the silver jewelry.  That sounds like a good idea if you are blessed with talent, but remaining unkept may restrict your customer base amigo ;-)  People try to sell me sterling silver Ruppee coins from the Raj all the time.  They look to be about 1 oz. and the going price is $15.

Do you ever think about brewing beer?  Don't they grow hops near you?

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 13:35 | 638011 merehuman
merehuman's picture

I did grow something that stinks when lit up. Lol. I shower, keep clean. But hair on face hides the well fed look a bit. Going barefoot feels great. The overall picture i created at my place is that there is nothing here to steal but the garden produce. Image is everything to most.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 23:52 | 638838 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

A beard's cool.  I never lock my doors.  Don't need to.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 01:03 | 638905 SheHunter
SheHunter's picture

High in the northern rockies where I live we can still skin a buck and run a trout line (thanks Hank Jr).   And take care of neighbors in need. We're the lucky ones.  door locks not needed....hardly anyone breaks in and if they do they only do so once.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 08:14 | 639095 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

I understand.  I lived further West.  I suppose you an yours will be fine.

Edit - my kitten was typing.  Minnesota Jim.  Is this what happened to you?

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:26 | 637712 bankonzhongguo
bankonzhongguo's picture

Mako, I deeply appreciate your work in this department.  However, I have been in court on this stuff a lot and despite all the theory of standing, mortgages and debt; the bank did at some point in this whole process wire transfer money from their account to the seller's account at a third party title company for the benefit of the "buyer-debtor."  Whether all the paperwork is "wrong" it seems to be that people would not been allowed to enter and alive inside one of these subject foreclosed homes unless "their" bank paid some money on their behalf.  I do not think it matters where the money came from or how it got in the bank possession - the bank paid money out and you got to live in the home.  Even if all the "contracts" are wrong; resold, no notary, "wet ink", missing documents, no loan app, etc.  Money was paid, accepted and people moved in.

I would love to set fire to the recorder offices and punch these bankers and BOD in the face, but I can't see some human avalanche of debt forgiveness.  I have argued for a long time, since 2008, that there should be a macro mark down of mortgages. But I don't see the courts helping the little guy going forward.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:50 | 637830 B9K9
B9K9's picture

I'm of two minds regarding your post. My initial reaction is that people who are as clueless as you appear to be should remain quiet and continue to read/learn. The other is that your post serves as a foil for whomever wishes to spend the necessary 5 seconds in which to correct your erroneous conclusions.

The "money" that was "wired" is a complete fiction. The "money" was first created by simultaneously debiting assets (mortgage loan) and crediting liabilities (checking deposit) at a specific originating bank. Bank accounts are essentially open books which are reconciled each day between inter-bank members. That means the original phantom check amount is recognized as an offsetting asset when deposited at another bank ie your so-called "money wire".

It's a closed system where each bank agrees to cover the fraud committed by others - IOW, RICO writ large. There's only one nit - it was all made intentionally legal back in 1913. So which statute has priority?

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:59 | 637946 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

It's not only the "spell" of "money" that has so blinded most people to what's going on, but all the supporting illusions that appear to make this entire charade "real". For so many people, to seriously question this "reality" would require that they question everything they think they know and believe in.

Since the illusion begins with our own acceptance of the illusion, all these questions will eventually lead back to ourselves. It's simply too much for many, thus they fight to remain safely within the Matrix.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 23:53 | 638841 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

Miles - I bet you are younger than me.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 02:06 | 638950 Miles Kendig
Sun, 10/10/2010 - 09:17 | 639102 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

Miles, that was good.  Check this out.  Do you know this stuff?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9OmkP_AelU

Peace

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 14:37 | 639544 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

Like my favorite dry bbq... I do find myself back in Memphis for the fall after all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk33tySBWj0

Back to bridgin' Janet...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xAJVri2a1U

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 21:03 | 638632 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

B9, we're all at different levels of understanding on different subjects amigo.   what i love about mako's return is that he made this complicated illusion crystal clear to many without a hint of antagonism or ego.  this is the same approach that FOFOA takes which is why i believe so many are drawn to him.

maybe in the end (i.e. the black hole, the void), it's not the goal (or gold) that matters, but the path in which we take to seek it (and to help others seek it).   with that said, in your best moments (which have been many lately), you have taught much and for me, that is worth much more than any preps that you may be taking to ensure your survival.

just a thought shared in good faith.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 22:55 | 638782 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

And it is a damn fine thing to see returners

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 10:43 | 639217 bankonzhongguo
bankonzhongguo's picture

B9K9, WTF?

I Want to believe all the logic and theory of this legal attack, but houses are built by people with materials, which like it or not are paid for with less than existential money.  After that house is built, the builder sets a market price and someone comes along and pays it - somehow.  The Matrix is a movie.  We are taking about (sur) real life here and I am afraid that standing before a judge and saying (and let us all get your quote correct); "The money that was wired is a complete fiction." is not an affirmative defense to otherwise prevent foreclosure, rescind a sale or otherwise universally remove debt from the back of humankind.  No doubt these are some creative arguments. but please (anyone) report back to the Mother-ship with news that this "Matrix theory of debt" has any traction in a real court and will otherwise address the nation's real estate bubble problems.  Somehow I don't see the "socialist" Obama coming to the rescue with this legal argument.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:44 | 636279 Jean Valjean
Jean Valjean's picture

Well assetman, you tried, with a treat for Mako's huge ego, but he still did not answer your questions did he.

Hey Mako, is owning gold still a futile endevor?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:51 | 636312 Mako
Mako's picture

I actually have some gold and silver, bought between 2000-2001 but I don't add to my position.  I see nothing wrong with holding some gold or silver or chicken wire or seed or fuel or whatever you might want to collect.  It's not going to stop the final conclusion.  The chaos will eventually start and the tanks will be rolling, the tanks crush everyone no matter if they have gold, silver or lint in their pocket. 

BTW I did answer him. 

I have no huge issues with the Modern Money Mechanics.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 17:50 | 636660 Apocalicious
Apocalicious's picture

But no war has ever completely enveloped 100% of the habitable global ecosystem. If I am to accept that the tanks will start rolling is in fact an inevitable outcome (fine, I concede that point), I still do not accept the correct response is do nothing. Frankly, I am in complete agreement that the system is too far gone to correct. Things grow, mature, then die. We will too, and ex post, our history will be a relatively short one compared with the great empires. But if in fact the tanks will roll, does it still not make sense to invest in things that might get you out of the way of the tanks when they come through? Throughout history, this is what the survivors have done. Gold works for this as well. Buy your way out. (One could also argue that Hummers, lots of gasoline, a private jet, a private island stocked with several years of food, etc. would also be good investments in that end game scenario. Or a big network of contacts from which you may call an Oskar Schindler in time of need.) Not that such things are easy, or perhaps even possible for most, but I merely argue that your conclusions regarding "nothing matters at the end" are not de facto logical extensions of your expected scenario analysis. There are in fact, things one can do.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 21:25 | 637057 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Like crawl under your school desk in the event of a nuclear attack.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 22:57 | 637194 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

chindit, you are being cheeky.  I think you see a way through for your own-self.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 21:59 | 637102 ToNYC
ToNYC's picture

 

 

Please do take the Chill pill large. Mathematics and Physics can work out the lowest activation energy solution that produces the largest buy-in for any situation. Wack projections suck up the bottom of the fear barrel and macht nicht.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 21:23 | 637056 Assetman
Assetman's picture

Thanks for the response.  You answered what was most important.

It's admittedly taken some time, but it's finally sinking in.

Whoa.  Just wait until the J6P's have that "you've been royally screwed" moment.   I can envision many folks being both on the the borrower side and a pension holder at the same time.

 

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 07:27 | 637478 Mako
Mako's picture

Fiction of Law. That which is false is presumed to be true. What is presumed to be true, that the bank gives you a loan and funds it.  Everyone is in on it, the bank the court and now even the forclosed homeowner.  They are all sitting around talking about a loan that never happened.

The goal is uncover that the party accepting the mortgage payments, is nothing but a broker, a loan servicer, who has no lawful claim as the beneficiary of the Deed of  Trust.

 Then with the documentation secured from the Loan Trust, the Mortgage paperwork, and supplemental communication issued by the loan servicer, the targeted Home owner of the non judicial foreclosure sale, may move a question of law in the proper jurisdiction to substantiate the loan servicer has no lawful standing to command a legal foreclosure under the Deed of Trust.

All these cases are acts of a DEBT COLLECTOR hiding in plain sight using by claiming to be an attorney of Law when in fact they ware DEBT COLLECTORS.

There is nether money lent, nor funds borrowed, there is only the deposit of one’s signed documentation into the demand despot transaction account of the state and or federally chartered financial services company’s form driven administrative operation of statutory law.

How may the loan servicer move a proof of claim when the promissory notes sits elsewhere, beyond said servicer’s statutory reach, in a separate legalistic formed entity, statutorily defined as the Real Estate Mortgage Investment Conduit without recourse?

OH CRAP!!!!

In virtually none of these cases does the plaintiff that is moving a foreclosing action have STANDING. 

These guys are not stopping because of robo-signing gate, people are already figuring out that none of the jokers have standing, and there is no way for them to gain standing.  Robo-signing Gate is nothing but the smoke screen to the real issue... that there is no standing of the party moving the foreclosure action.

Under your state financial laws t plainly states, a creditor may charge fees as if they may be deemed to be  “interest”.   No loan was made nor funded they are charging you a fee.   The fiction is that this fee is interest that was funded by the bank and gave to the seller of the home. 

THE SO CALLED ATTORNEY AT LAW IS A DEBT COLLECTOR, THE TRUSTEE IS A DEBT COLLECTOR, THE NOMINEE IS A DEBT COLLECTOR AND THE LOAN SERVICER IS A DEBT COLLECTOR.   Oh crap.

http://openjurist.org/443/f3d/373/wilson-v-draper-and-goldberg-pllc

Nor is it relevant that Defendants were attorneys. Generally speaking, all lawyers are fiduciaries for their clients. As discussed above, however, the more important question is whether Defendants' actions were "incidental" to their fiduciary obligation. We conclude that they are not. Furthermore, it is well-established that lawyers can be "debt collectors" even if conducting litigation. See Heintz v. Jenkins, 514 U.S. 291, 299, 115 S.Ct. 1489, 131 L.Ed.2d 395 (1995) ("[T]he Act applies to attorneys who `regularly' engage in consumer-debt-collection activity, even when that activity consists of litigation."). In fact, the Act as originally enacted exempted attorneys from its coverage, but Congress amended the Act in 1986 "to provide that any attorney who collects debts on behalf of a client shall be subject to the provisions of [the] Act." Pub.L. No. 99-361, 100 Stat. 768 (codified at 15 U.S.C.A. 1692a); see also Carroll v. Wolpoff & Abramson, 961 F.2d 459, 461 (4th Cir. 1992) (discussing repeal of the attorney exemption). If the principal purpose of a lawyer's work is the collection of debts, he is a "debt collector" under the Act. See Scott v. Jones, 964 F.2d 314, 316-17 (4th Cir.1992).

 

Of course, I have seen people that have figured this out but then go to court and try and ARGUE all kinds of crap.  The goal of the defendant in a foreclosure action is not to prove himself right but to prove the other party WRONG.  

Simple put, the plaintiff in these actions have no standing regardless if there was a loan or not.  More than likely the promissory note is embedded within the REMIC without recourse. It is up to the defendant to stop the plaintiff from using deviant means to secure something that is not legally theirs.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p938.pdf

Once the home owner makes the last payment, the statutory clock on debt starts ticking. 

 

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 21:03 | 638633 Cammy Le Flage
Cammy Le Flage's picture

Hello.  Plaintiff's burden.   I am a defendant in one of these actions but I do what always good defendants do - tell the Plaintiff to fuck off and prove it.  Excepting the Plaintiff already filed fraudulent docs.   The dates and overlap was so funny now they are trying to prove I committed some sort of fraud on them - which I didn't so SOL on that.  But in some states there is a little statute re: property taxes and if they are not paid by anyone the tax amount goes to sale - if any potential entity is claiming a lien or something on the property they got to watch those sales in the states where the buyer of the tax lien becomes the owner of the property and the underlying debts/obligations to same are cancelled out completely by statute.   I know of three properties that were subject to foreclosure but ALSO to building code violation liens and the bank/lender thingy did not show up to the violation hearing at all even though given legal notice and the houses/apartment buildings are now bulldozed to the ground and only the land is left.   Said land is now sold at tax auction.    And the foreclosure actions are still on the docket as "pending" but dangerously close to dismissal for lack of prosecution.   Other issues occurring: These entities filing these foreclosure actions do not respond to discovery requests usually and then rules of civil procedure kick in and then the suit gets dismissed for "you had plenty time to prove your claim and you wasted it - game over no matter what you are entitled to".

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 10:44 | 639107 Mako
Mako's picture

I am not giving legal advice, but if you are in county court that is ran by a bunch of stupid idiots.  You would post federal question as to the status of the plaintiff... ie attorney, trustte, nominee, loan servicer, etc as to being a DEBT Collector... a move to USDC will slow the process down.  Also, an immediately BK filing will halt the foreclosure, this will slow the process down and when the DEBT Collector saying he is an attorney at law comes into BK you make him prove standing and you could move another suit in USDC about their status as DEBT Collectors.

The county courts are learning but they are behind the 8-ball in some places. 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 19:42 | 636901 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

What mako is saying assetman is that the lender never gave the borrow consideration. And thus the lender can not claim a loss on the loan, because it didn't come from a deposit or cash reserves. It came from ledgering the amount into existence based on your signature. Your signature is the credit that is given. It originates essentially from the banking acts that developed during the civil war as a way for Lincoln to pay for the war. Banks were not able to create bank notes prior to the civil war and the bank act allowed money to be created through a signature.

It is why currently all money is based on a signature. Dollar bills, bank notes, credit cards, etc.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 01:00 | 637198 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

The technique preceeds the Civil War.  Look into how the "capital" was raised to start the BoE.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 01:27 | 637348 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Some fun historical info about early colonial currency:

http://www.thecurrencycollector.com/pdfs/Maryland_Colonial_and_Continent...

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 08:49 | 639118 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

Someone loaned 20% of the agreed upon capital and the other investors(4?) borrowed the initial deposit in a fractional reserve way to buy their stake.  Again, no skin in the game.  We'ze been fleeced ... again!

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 21:06 | 638636 Cammy Le Flage
Cammy Le Flage's picture

Good and requisite consideration - it is key.  

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:34 | 635966 Ragnarok
Ragnarok's picture

He's talking about fractional reserve banking and the money being created at the loans origination by simply putting it as both an asset and a liability on the banks balance sheet.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:40 | 635992 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

...simply putting it as both an asset and a liability on the banks balance sheet.

What, the banks can't have their cake and eat it too?

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 02:39 | 638981 Cammy Le Flage
Cammy Le Flage's picture

The Bahamas and all the other place just got raided - i am not kidding....indictments are flying but their courts are small and we dont really "like think their judgments are valid" but we do have a navy base under their archepelago that the chines bought the top of years ago......   Puerto Rico lost a lot of their police department (allegedley) Hait is still a wreck but it is Haiti - things are happening.   the Caribbean is heating up.....

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:47 | 636028 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

It always amazes me.  You would think people would inherently understand that our money supply has grown since 1913. But yet, nobody questions how that supply grows or who has the power to grow it..

Question Everything! Knowledge is Power!.. and quite disturbing at times.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:58 | 636056 Mako
Mako's picture

Most people have no idea what even money is, let alone trying to figure out where it comes from.

They think you go to the bank, get approved for a loan, the bank reaches in the vault and has money stashed in there just waiting to be lent out.  Why do or did we all believe that, because that is what our parents thought us. 

If our parents thought us that the Moon was made out of cheese, I am sure we would start a war to defend that notion.

 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:01 | 636092 Rusty_Shackleford
Rusty_Shackleford's picture

Most people have no idea what even money is

 

Bingo.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 03:22 | 637429 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

but more may as the money gets odder.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:35 | 636227 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Mako, thanks for the knowledge. 

I don't think the idea that banks create money out of thin air will be the rub, per se. 

It's the implications of this (of course they are related):

1. They charge INTEREST (and origination fees) for the privilege of doing nothing; and 

2. They receive REAL collateral for this nothingness, in the form of a claim on real productive assets, your DOWN PAYMENT, and a claim on your future productivity (especially in recourse states). 

IMHO, your argument becomes much more powerful when you provide the zinger - that in return for doing nothing, the bank receives a claim on real property, interest payments and fees, and your down-payment (which you have actually 'earned'). Not a very fair trade...

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:47 | 636295 Mako
Mako's picture

It's the same scheme recycled over and over for 1000s of years.   Humans are so predictable it's not even funny, Humans love taking a bite of the apple.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 20:54 | 637009 tomdub_1024
tomdub_1024's picture

Which is why maybe the religious texts all seem to have a prohibition against usury, and a solution, periodic "jubilee", to reset the system since the mathematical certainity points to only one end...

Problem is, with the reset, enough of us take the bait again, like fish in a farmed pond...

Yup, trout were created to think corn impaled on a hook is their natural food....

riiiiighht

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 07:35 | 637496 Mako
Mako's picture

Yes, they figured out you can't escape the Truth.  Well, you can if you perish before the Truth comes in smacks you in the head.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 11:05 | 639250 hardmedicine
hardmedicine's picture

WAIT A MINUTE.... HOW DID THE BUILDER GET PAID WHEN HE HAD TO BUILD THE HOUSE.  HE ACTUALLY PUT HIS AND OTHERS SKILL AND LABOR INTO IT WHICH WAS GIVEN TO THE BANK IN CONSIDERATION FOR THE MONEY.  SO THE LOAN REPRESENTS THE BUILDERS LABOR.  THAT IS REAL.  WHAT ABOUT THAT?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 18:48 | 636801 macholatte
macholatte's picture

You are correct, sir!

What the bank is supposed to provide in return for all the fees and the license to fabricate currency from vapor is a fiduciary duty to the customers. The bank is supposed to be a standard of TRUST and a place where people can be treated fairly and honestly by a disinterested third party.

Unfortunately, that is not the case because there is no punishment for a banker (individual who is an officer of the corporation) who breaches his duty. Therefore, there is nothing in trade that benefits the customer other than the illusion of integrity. The banker simply shuffles down the street to set up shop at a new storefront after the old corp went BK and he parachuted out with money created from nothing.

 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 22:13 | 637123 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

"The bank is supposed to be a standard of TRUST and a place where people can be treated fairly and honestly by a disinterested third party."

yes theoretically, that should be the case.   but what happens when everyone talks their book?   can a system be designed where the 3rd party is completely disinterested & transparent?

would a open-source model of banking work?

how about an open-source model of investment banking?

see max k's new project?

www.piratemyfilm.com

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 22:59 | 637196 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

love this.

thanks for the link tip e.!

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 01:11 | 637339 thermroc
thermroc's picture

Oh My God, I have just seen the future.

That is so fucking cool.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 21:11 | 638646 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

ya mon...gotta give mad props to max...can't wait for piratemyfarm.com

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 00:15 | 637287 PeterB
PeterB's picture

"Corporations have neither bodies to be punished nor souls to be damned" 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 21:19 | 637048 QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

and if they have recourse on the loan, they have claims on a lot more than you detail. 

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 03:06 | 637420 RunWild
RunWild's picture

Wow, think I'm starting to understand...

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 19:21 | 636862 Rotwang
Rotwang's picture

The corporate can only deal with that which they 'comprehend'. Since they are a virtual from the start, all their dealings are in virtuals, such as 'real estate'. Real estate is not land.

A man or a woman can comprehend land, and can thus deal with it. Todays transfer documents no longer call out the participants as men/women, nor do they specifically transact in land and the appurtenances. The legal descriptions are flawed, in the manner that they no longer 'enclose a tract of land'

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:38 | 635987 LeBalance
LeBalance's picture

I luv these posts by Mako:

Debt as Money Series I and II on Youtube.

This is the beginning of the banking holiday.

Once a certain "larger" fraction of folks realise that banks DO NOT supply money it all gets very wacky .... in an instant. as in ZAP!

That ZAP is known as catharsis, or seeing the light, or the epiphany.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:41 | 635998 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Or the ultimate anal pucker.

Pucker power to the people.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:53 | 636054 Ragnarok
Ragnarok's picture

Great series.  Even as a cartoon I still have trouble getting others to watch it.  They simply don't want to know and can't be bothered.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:05 | 636111 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Emphasis on "don't want to know".

It's a real problem knowing because once you know, it's real hard to un-know, ya know? It takes much less energy to not know something to start with than it does to practice unknowing, aka denial.

Who said Americans aren't energy conscious? :>)

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:07 | 636122 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

Its an uphill battle to "know"....basically creating order from chaos.  Second law of Thermo makes it a tuff slog.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:11 | 636132 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Says "Dr. No".

LOL

In a world that recognizes the power of Karma, "Dr. No" could be the only person to reply to my comment.

Ya know? :>)

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 18:46 | 636798 Voluntary Exchange
Voluntary Exchange's picture

I am not so impressed with that 2nd "law". Every "piece" of everything needs everything else to be "whole". Put another way it takes something greater than a universe just to define a single electron. Or some might say, "God" really gets around! Imagine that!. IN other words there is actually no such thing as "closed" system.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 21:29 | 637061 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

Wake me when they find the anti-entropy particle (or is it a wave?)

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 21:12 | 638647 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

or is it a wave-icle?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:10 | 636130 Ragnarok
Ragnarok's picture

...........I'm sorry what? The new episode of glee was just delivered to my Hulu account.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:11 | 636134 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Sadly I know what you mean. :>)

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 22:49 | 637176 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

ignorance is pissed

or on a long enough timeline, the bliss rate for everyone drops to zero

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 19:27 | 636877 desgust
desgust's picture

I junked you because you are a SHILL!

HAVE YOU SEEN THOSE VIDS?
They have to be from the CFR!!!

Last one is pleading for DIGITAL MONEY!!!

you must be a fucktard not to see who gave birth to this misscarriage of a vid!

Desinformation, lie an suggestivity!

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 22:02 | 637109 LeBalance
LeBalance's picture

Wow!  Please discuss in less than four exclamation points exactly how defining bank loans as promises to pay and fraud qualifies one as a shill?

Me think you are missing the point of general information dissemination.

Is Bill Still's Money Masters a crock even though Bill's political viewpoint leaves something to be desired?

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 04:09 | 637400 i-dog
i-dog's picture

"Bill's political viewpoint leaves something to be desired?"

That's putting it mildly! But, as you suggest, he peels away one or two layers of the onion for us ... and for that, I thank him.

I guess it's how the "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" epithet arose: Someone peels away the dry skin, finds an edible "core" in the onion and shouts "eureka! ... I've discovered an apple", without yet realising that the core is in fact a whole lot more layers of onion.

Mako has certainly exposed another important layer of the onion for me in the last 24 hours that Bill completely missed (or I missed it, if Bill didn't). Thanks, Mako!

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 19:42 | 638531 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

In the beginning of Money as Debt, he does talk about you taking out a bank "loan" that you think is from deposits, but it isn't.  But I have to say as well, I didn't get it either until Mako spelled it out.  Thanks again Mako.

How can we have a system where the bank gets title to real property after advancing nothing but the magical priviledge of creating the impression of money out of thin air?

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 01:53 | 638942 i-dog
i-dog's picture

I got the "creating the money from thin air rather than from deposits" from Bill (one of a number of layers of the onion that Bill peels open).

But what I got from Mako was the "bank has no right in equity for taking the actual property" part, because they had no skin (consideration) in the contract with the mortgagor.

All in all, a very valuable thread.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 19:37 | 638523 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

LeBalance - ... even though Bill's political viewpoint leaves something to be desired?

Can you elaborate?  What's up with his political viewpoint?  He doesn't like banks.  He does like those money-sticks.  Anything else?

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 05:33 | 638946 i-dog
i-dog's picture

Just in case LeBalance doesn't see your question, or has a different perspective, this is why I don't like Bill's politics:

1. His solutions are statist and still based on fiat money. I believe in a "money" solution, not a "fiat" solution. He wants to hand the printing press to the government, not the wealth creators (ie. competing currencies).

2. He is a blatant Keynesian socialist, which means "government should save during good times, and spend during bad". This is just another redistribution soporific that would be misused/abused just as often in the future as it has been in the past. The person who creates the actual wealth -- in good times or bad -- is not the government: they just steal it at gunpoint.

Just my 2¢ :)

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 08:53 | 639124 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

Thanks i-dog.

I think going back to the Constitution and remaining a nation of laws is the best way to go.

I suspect you do too.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 11:32 | 639263 i-dog
i-dog's picture

"I suspect you do too."

Sorry, BI. Magna Carta, maybe; Constitution, no.

I am an anarcho-capitalist. Have been for nearly half a century. I have been a consultant to the CEOs or boards of more than 30 of the 'Fortune 500' and have spread anarchy through many of the biggest of these ... because it works to improve their efficiency, innovation and profitability. I know it works and I have proved to them that it works ... notwithstanding the initial very strong resistance by senior management who were just as scared of losing their 'authority' and control as those among the populace who are scared of losing their 'democracy' and the corrupt nanny state that it always and inevitably results in. I also apply the same principles to my children, grandchildren and employees -- anarchy reigns and they are all successful and happy!

As a consultant to large corporations and governments, I am certainly not naiive as to the consequences of scaling something up that might work in a small tribe but not at an international level. On the contrary, I am fully cognisant of the need to allow ALL complex systems to allow the individual components to work in their own self-interest under local rules rather than trying to control everything from the top with global rules.

Sure, we need the rule of law -- but natural law and its extension by individual contract and independent arbitration covers all that is needed to avoid the 'Mad Max' scenario that statists promulgate as the "inevitable" outcome of removing their overarching power. They WOULD say that -- and propagandize you all to believe it -- wouldn't they?!!

The failing of the Constitution is in its reliance on elected representatives acting in the best interests of their constituents AND not becoming corrupted. Yet, within just a few years of its enactment, George Washington was leading the army against civilians to collect new taxes to which they (and the constitution) were opposed -- and Jefferson was issuing written warnings that the whole thing was a fragile house of cards!

Look where we were in 1861 (Civil War), 1898 (false flag terrorism starts Spanish-American War), 1913 (Fed takeover and start of IRS), 1914 (false flag assassination starts WWI), 1941 (contrived attack on Pearl Harbour gets US into WWII), and hundreds of other false flags and other acts of untrammeled government abuse of citizens -- culminating in the inside job of 9/11 and the current ponzi meltdown!

So much for the Congress, President or Supreme Court protecting "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"! How many have they killed? How much have they stolen? How happy is everyone now? How could it be any different if we started the whole process over again?

Remember Einstein's definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result NEXT time!

That is enough for now.

Peace.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 12:13 | 639346 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

"The failing of the Constitution is in its reliance on elected representatives acting in the best interests of their constituents AND not becoming corrupted."

Bingo!

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 13:18 | 639451 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

i-dog, it might be valuable for many to further elaborate at a later date on some of these principles of anarchy that you teach.   i agree that 'anarchy' is not what most believe it to be and the resistance comes from fear of our potential vs. fear of our destruction.  perhaps it's time to find a new name for it.   the word itself has been fenced in by too many negative connotations, so that the principles behind it are still completely opaque to most of us.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 23:50 | 640221 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

i-dog - You talk about how the flaws in the Constitution have manifested themselves over time and I agree with your list.  But what you're saying is forget about representative democracy? 

In the beginning, the ratio of those being represented to those doing the representation was much lower.  Now the ratio is so high that the representative is just an abstraction collecting lobbying payoffs.  Would the system work better if we had more representatives?

And what about the Magna Carter?  It doesn't look to me that that evolved too well either.  Is the average Englishman (Joe-6-Pints) freer today than the average American (Joe-6-Pack)?

What's 'Natural Law'?  Is that something like the 10 commandments?  The 8 precepts?

I agree re. the Mad-Max scenario, the current state of the state will try to pump you full of fear of your fellow man [Be on the lookout for underwear bombers with swarthy complections!].  I believe it is an individual choice to accept this fear or not.

Finally, you talk about having put your anarchy ideas into practice already.  Well, what happens when one or more of your anarchy-operating units, doing their anarchy thing, bumps up against the state?

Interesting post.  Thanks.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 21:01 | 637020 benb
benb's picture

LeBalance “This is the beginning of the banking holiday.”

Are we looking at the OCTOBER SURPRISE?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 22:06 | 637113 LeBalance
LeBalance's picture

BenB: I come to ZH and also to Netdania every day and my jaw drops on most days.  In the medium term this mess is going to heat up to chaos level, but in the short term a distraction is needed for the PM price issue and the mortgage robo-fraud.

The attention of too many is on the banksters.  Be safe.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:49 | 636043 Marla And Me
Marla And Me's picture

Thank Dog you showed up for this one Mako!  I was just going to invoke your name after reading traderjoe's reply above, and then here you are!  These banks will go on, in some form or other, because humans require that credit be created when dealing with each other (do people really want to act like the old-time Chinese did and pay for their homestead in CASH after saving for years in order to buy it?).  If we continue to inject interest into the equation, well then the outcome will be baked into the cake every. single. time.  You simply cannot add compounding interest into a finite system.  Math is really the only religion humans need to get in touch with.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:59 | 636082 Mako
Mako's picture

People are waking up but it's not because they want to but because the Truth is being forced on them.  Humans can't win against the Truth.  Like you said Math(Truth) is breaking down all the lies we tell ourselves. 

The lie is the same lies as they were a thousand years ago.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 19:43 | 636906 NumberNone
NumberNone's picture

Mako...if it's been going on since the beginning of civilization, why will it end now?  Jesus tossed the money changer tables in the temple and the moment he was gone they tidied up and had him killed.  

Until you can boil this down into a kernel of information the average person can get outraged over most people could give a damn.  Most will view this as deadbeats gaming the system over a technicality that they themselves won't benefit from...so "fuck 'em".  

Where this really has the potential to get ugly is if a national law firm or firm(s) file a class action lawsuit and starts advertising that they can get people out of their house notes on the paperwork technicalities.  Then people will get excited like sharks with blood in the water.  

If they get that Sham-Wow guy to pitch it ....the banks are doomed.   

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 20:20 | 636953 Bob
Bob's picture

Where the hell are those commercials, anyway? 

I keep hearing references to "class actions in every state," but I have seen no evidence of these.  Wonder if it's true?  Would be nice to know. 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:25 | 635909 midtowng
midtowng's picture

So if the big banks all gets sued and have to pay billions of dollars for fraud, doesn't that mean that the taxpayers will have to bail them out again?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:36 | 635969 Bob
Bob's picture

No.  The taxpayers were adamantly against TARP I by a 9:1 margin.

If our representatives insist on bending us over again, well, I don't think they really want to consider the possible consequences.  None of them are good for them. 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:48 | 636033 HarryWanger
HarryWanger's picture

Ummm, they were "adamantly against Tarp I by a 9:1 margin."

And what happened? Tarp I was put into place. So why would you think they would care what the taxpayers think this time? Especially after the election.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:54 | 636057 aheady
aheady's picture

That's kind of where I arrived as well.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:55 | 636062 Bob
Bob's picture

I think it would get very ugly this time around.  Now it's in the MSM that the banks are on thin ice due to fraud. 

Would you want to be either a politician or a bankster in that situation?  I wouldn't. 

They'd better plan on shutting down the internet, for starters. 

 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:03 | 636100 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Official bank nationalization in 3... 2... 1...

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:56 | 636345 Bob
Bob's picture

You got it!  Very good. 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:02 | 636099 Everyman
Everyman's picture

Because this time P{ATRIOTS will take POLITICIANS out in the streets and BEAT THEM TO DEATH!!!

Peole have had enough of this crap and they will not take another bailout of banksters when their milk, bread, food are all going up 25%.  Check the commidities prices.

People are gpoing to get pissed and want someones head, whether "legally" or not.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:04 | 636104 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Nah, they'll just demand a bigger handout in order to make things "fair."

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:13 | 636138 HarryWanger
HarryWanger's picture

No they won't. Not if it coincides with the season premiere of Dancing with the Stars or American Idol.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:20 | 636164 aheady
aheady's picture

Check.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 19:51 | 638542 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

Double check ... unfortunately.  People aren't hungry yet.  Wait until the hunger starts.  In the mean time, the myth of the greatest time in the greatest place there ever was continues to dominate.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 19:09 | 636842 macholatte
macholatte's picture

It's a real shame that the sheeple are not grabbing the shears and doing some serious trimming of the Congress. The next few weeks will tell the tale of "business as usual". Scumbag politicians will be rewarded  for their lying, cheating and stealing by their constituents who relect them in spite of the bad deeds they do.

Every single piece of shit who voted to repeal Glass Steagal should have been skinned alive as the half time show of the 2009 Super Bowl.

I'm betting a US Silver dollar that on Nov 4 we will NOT have 25+ new Senators and 300+ new representatives. That would be a revolution.

 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 20:22 | 636956 Bob
Bob's picture

Or at least a big hint.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 19:55 | 638550 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

No electoral solution on the horizon.  Even if all the incumbents lose {and you lose your silver dollar} the replacements have already, all passed through the selection process.  All are wed to the banksters and the GWOT.

Where is there a real choice?  In CA., you can choose Boxer/AIPAC icon, or the former HP CEO.  Same same.

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