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Janet Tavakoli On The "Biggest Fraud In The History Of Capital Markets"

Tyler Durden's picture




 

In the following interview with the WaPo's Ezra Klein, Janet Tavakoli shares some more information on why every bank is about to shut down all foreclosures, in what she calls the "biggest fraud in the history of capital markets." Not very surprisingly, we are, so far, spot on in our 29th September projected timeline at this point: "We predict that within a week, all banks will halt every foreclosure currently in process. Within a month, all foreclosures executed within the past 2-3 years will be retried, and millions of existing home sales will be put in jeopardy."

Ezra Klein: What’s happening here? Why are we suddenly faced with a crisis that wasn’t apparent two weeks ago?

Janet Tavakoli: This is the biggest fraud in the history of the
capital markets. And it’s not something that happened last week. It
happened when these loans were originated, in some cases years ago.
Loans have representations and warranties that have to be met. In the
past, you had a certain period of time, 60 to 90 days, where you sort
through these loans and, if they’re bad, you kick them back. If the
documentation wasn’t correct, you’d kick it back. If you found the
incomes of the buyers had been overstated, or the houses had been
appraised at twice their worth, you’d kick it back. But that didn’t
happen here. And it turned out there were loan files that were missing
required documentation. Part of putting the deal together is that the
securitization professional, and in this case that’s banks like Goldman
Sachs and JP Morgan, has to watch for this stuff. It’s called perfecting
the security interest, and it’s not optional.

EK: And how much danger are the banks themselves in?

JT: When we had the financial crisis, the first thing the banks did
was run to Congress and ask for accounting relief. They asked to be able
to avoid pricing this stuff at the price where people would buy them.
So no one can tell you the size of the hole in these balance sheets.
We’ve thrown a lot of money at it. TARP was just the tip of the iceberg.
We’ve given them guarantees on debts, low-cost funding from the Fed.
But a lot of these mortgages just cannot be saved. Had we acknowledged
this problem in 2005, we could’ve cleaned it up for a few hundred
billion dollars. But we didn’t. Banks were lying and committing fraud,
and our regulators were covering them and so a bad problem has become a
hellacious one.

EK: My understanding is that this now pits the banks against
the investors they sold these products too. The investors are going to
court to argue that the products were flawed and the banks need to take
them back.

JT: Many investors now are waking up to the fact that they were
defrauded. Even sophisticated investors. If you did your due diligence
but material information was withheld, you can recover. It’ll be a
case-by-by-case basis.

EK: Given that our financial system is still fragile, isn’t that a disaster for the economy? Will credit freeze again?

JT: I disagree. In order to make the financial system healthy, we
need to recognize the extent of our losses and begin facing the fraud.
Then the market will be trustworthy again and people will start to
participate.

EK: It sounds almost like you’re saying we still need to go through the end of our financial crisis.

JT: Yes, but I wouldn’t say crisis. This can be done with a
resolution trust corporation, the way we cleaned up the S&Ls. The
system got back on its feet faster because we grappled with the
problems. The shareholders would be wiped out and the debt holders would
have to take a discount on their debt and they’d get a debt-for-equity
swap. Instead we poured TARP money into a pit and meanwhile the banks
are paying huge bonuses to some people who should be made accountable
for fraud. The financial crisis was a product of our irrational
reaction, which protected crony capitalism rather than capitalism. In
capitalism, the shareholders who took the risk would be wiped out and
the debt holders would take a discount but banking would go on.

 

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Sat, 10/09/2010 - 21:23 | 638653 poor fella
poor fella's picture

It's just too damn late. The freakish right (as opposed to leaning 'conservative') took Ron Paul's REVOLution and turned it into Palin's private wet dream of power completely destroying the center. Voting Independant or Green or for some WRITE IN is a Tea Party. Congress was scared shitless for a month or two, but now the lesser of two evils (however one perceives that) is right F^^KING back where we started. Sickening really... and MSM is to blame. Brilliant maneuver to throw beck and sarah freakface at the problem. We're HOSED. We can look forward to gridlock or more corporatacracy....    hosed.  

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 00:00 | 638847 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

My hope is that I see the government becoming increasingly irrelevant.  Don't participate.  I read the latest Gonzalo Lira piece and I think he's saying the same thing.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 22:00 | 637107 razorthin
razorthin's picture

I am just stockpiling lead.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 22:04 | 637108 ToNYC
ToNYC's picture

 

Get  the list of TARP I  voters in the House and vote for the other guy if yours voted yes in the face of and against the Will of the People. What could be easier than that! They proved they bent over for the member Banks. GTFOOH!

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 19:57 | 638552 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

The new guy will be as hungry for lucre and just as bad as the old guy.  The selection process has to change for starters.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:25 | 635911 skohiu
skohiu's picture

Dow at 11k......move along.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:25 | 635912 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

Janet is hot.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:40 | 635993 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

Yes , I just don't know if its the small brain or the large brain that she is stimulating ......

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 18:22 | 636741 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Janet is hot.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 20:22 | 636958 Bob
Bob's picture

A MILF.  Works for me. 

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 01:48 | 637355 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

I find intellectual women attractive.  Tavakoli has taken care of herself and I would certainly consider her attractive as well.  Attractive + Intellectual == hot.

 

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 08:31 | 637513 Bob
Bob's picture

That's definitely what makes the sizzle

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:26 | 635913 Goldenballs
Goldenballs's picture

All the banks,central banks,politicians are doing a great job,they just can,t prove it.Laughable.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:25 | 635914 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Wall St. getting bailouts because they failed their due diligence obligations because they knew they lived in the domain of Helicopter Ben, Moralhazardland?

Naaaaah, Unposssible!

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 18:24 | 636746 Kayman
Kayman's picture

So when do you cross the line from "Moral Hazard" to "Committing Fraud" ?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 21:47 | 637085 QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

 

They didn't "fail" their due diligence, they(some/many) knowingly originated "bad" loans. Don't forget, the more desperate the borrower, the higher the IR, and the higher the rate, the greater the premium on the port, particularly as Allie "G" kept dropping rates....  the higher the premium, the greater the profits and the fatter the bonuses... the real rainmakers really cleaned up, particularly at shops looking to get "rolled up", b/c the big payoff was sprucing yourself up to be rolled-up and your "earnings" got valued at a higher "bigger bank" multiple and therefore the acquirer could pay way too much and the deal was still sold as "accretive"... this shit went way beyond simply the mortgage ports. 

 

What is amazing, is that S&P, Moody's and the rest have not been dragged into this yet... b/c alot of sludge  was rated "AAA".

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:26 | 635916 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Exponential bitches!

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:26 | 635917 frankTHE COIN
frankTHE COIN's picture

Now that this thing is hitting, we will get the delayed catastrophic response. It always seems that once it is acknowledged, it tears away underneath and explodes a little later.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:00 | 636090 HarryWanger
HarryWanger's picture

But first, there has to be some clarity as to what the "crisis" actually is and what if any impact it will have on the economy. From everything I've read on this for the past two weeks, nobody really seems to know if it's really a big problem or not.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:19 | 636161 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Well,

Since most of these LOANS are rolled into CDS instruments, how does one make a payment( if the titles are found), to a bank in Mogadishu?.

I mean, this ponzi paper shit is spread all over the globe.

What does this LOOK like after a 150 Trillion dollar CDS wipe out?.

Someones gonna be pissed,except Harry homesteader.......

You owe $350k your home,ok, to Whom,shall I send the payment?.

Is this like Free Houses Bitchezz?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:52 | 636325 aerojet
aerojet's picture

It would be a big problem even if the banksters had not sold all those securities levered 40:1 or whatever it was.  As it stands, it is a COSMIC problem that cannot be papered over.  I'm starting to believe the metalheads.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 01:35 | 637351 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

The anger of the CDO holders is gonna make Harry Homesteader look like a piker...

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 07:37 | 636861 bada boom
bada boom's picture

Harry, don't they need to repossess the homes so they can return (reflate) the asset back into the market place.  So, if they cannot easily flip the houses to create more "good" debt to replace the bad debt, I would think this is a problem.  No?

And to add, I doubt very much these people are paying property and school taxes on their homes if they are not paying the mortgage.  Hence, another problem for the bank, No?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:26 | 635919 Sarah Conner
Sarah Conner's picture

Can a bank sue itself for holding a shitty mortgage that it originated? 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:27 | 635922 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

"Given that our financial system is still fragile, isn’t that a disaster for the economy?"

The system is fragile the same way an AIDS sick person in their final stages is "fragile", u know that kind of fragile you get better from?, well its not that kind of fragile

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:27 | 635926 Sancho Ponzi
Sancho Ponzi's picture

There will be zero confidence in the markets and zero confidence in this administration if the O-Team and congress critters let this slide.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:29 | 636203 DosZap
DosZap's picture

"There will be zero confidence in the markets and zero confidence in this administration if the O-Team and congress critters let this slide."

Do you actually believe there is ANY Left?, or ever was?.

 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:28 | 635931 EllisWyattOTC
EllisWyattOTC's picture

Bankers and politicians have declared Marshal Law on Says Law, If the housing market is is not allowed to liquidate. We need massive liquidation in the housing market to ever get us out of this fucking mess, don't get me wrong i don't like people losing there homes but if they should have never had them in the first place foreclosure followed by liquidation of the property will be the only way for entire system to purge itself without having to have it crash. 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:29 | 635933 Bob
Bob's picture

We're gonna have to do what we should have done the first time (as both captialists and socialists would agree): Shut the banks down and sort them out. 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:30 | 635938 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

" resolution trust corporation"

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:08 | 636125 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Meet the new boss.

Same as the old boss.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:52 | 636319 Bob
Bob's picture

Nihilism much?

What's your solution?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 22:08 | 637119 LeBalance
LeBalance's picture

Going mobile :: obviously!

"Watch the police and the taxman miss me, I'm mobile!"

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 23:20 | 637226 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

"Beep-Beep Beep-Beep, yeah!"

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 00:57 | 637330 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

"Keep me moving over 50....."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxoO5yrabfc

turn it up and enjoy Keith's drumming!

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:18 | 637785 11b40
11b40's picture

The late, great Keith Moon was an inspired, pounding genius.  Unfortunately, his motto was the same as the banksters - 'Too much is never enough'.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 01:55 | 637360 snowball777
snowball777's picture

A guy sitting in the room someplace I can't see is talking about a guy up on Disturbed killing himself. Old Rawler. Cut both nuts off and bled to death, sitting right on the can in the latrine, half a dozen people in there with him didn't know it till he fell off to the floor, dead.

 

What makes people so impatient is what I can't figure; all the guy had to do was wait.

 

Kesey

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:31 | 635943 euryale
euryale's picture

bring back...

William Black...

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 22:56 | 637192 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

yes! wait, that was decades ago when the government still followed the law

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:32 | 635947 LostWages
LostWages's picture

And what happens to the trillions of CDS contracts written on this garbage?

IMHO, it's the CDS casino that causes "intelligent" options to be ignored.  The CDS casino cannot payout, especially if the banks that need to take the hits are the holders of the CDS contracts.

AIG deja-vu all over again....right Yogi?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:49 | 636041 Bob
Bob's picture

If the instruments that are "covered" by the CDS's are fraudulant, then the CDS's should be null and void.  Right?

Hell, they should just be dissolved en mass, far as I'm concerned.  So sad, too bad.  Cocaine used to be legal once, too.  Things change. 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:19 | 636162 Assetman
Assetman's picture

I agree on the "null and void" comment.

But can it actually be done?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 16:54 | 636309 Bob
Bob's picture

At some point, it must be done.  To fail to do so is to continue to allow the risk of it "happening" to substantially direct our course.  If there is no meltdown, we pay dearly to the banks for holding them at bay.  This is only blackmail and the bailout money only "protection" money. If/when there is a meltdown, we'll find that it was wasted money spent trying to avoid it--the system cannot survive an uncontrolled derivative explosion. 

I'm no legal expert.  But I don't see how we can continue as a society to allow this situation to continue. 

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 01:03 | 637332 agrotera
agrotera's picture

CDS's need to be outlawed since they add NO VALUE, only enable accounting fraud, and on the highest level, an illusion of safety for anyone who buys into the idea that they actually can be paid--unless of course you are Goldman Sachs or another member of the Fed cartel and you know Lehman is going down and that you will be paid thanks to your friend in treasury who with the help of a friend named Ben, refuse Lehman a 6 billion dollar a bridge loan yet two days later, give AIG the money to pay off the bets made through AIG on Lehman's death.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 23:00 | 638788 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

Are you back or just visiting?

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 11:35 | 639287 agrotera
agrotera's picture

Hi Miles,

I've never been gone, but sometimes I miss out on everyone's comments and so  I sometimes miss a great part of the whole gift of ZH!!!  Hope you are doing well and God Bless you!!!

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 23:20 | 640182 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

And you as well fellow Tennessean.  Peace pal

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 11:36 | 639288 agrotera
agrotera's picture

.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:35 | 635970 max2205
max2205's picture

Wonder how much bad MBS 's Ben brought this year?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:39 | 635994 Sancho Ponzi
Sancho Ponzi's picture

/sarcasm on

The Fed cannot legally purchase subprime securities.

/sarcasm off

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:45 | 636017 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

This morning, while watching CNBC "live" from the St Louis Fed, I caught Steve Lies-man explaining QE using flip charts. I almost choked on my morning coffee when he said (with it printed out on his flip charts) that the money the Fed "prints out of thin air" (I quote Steve baby here) can be used to buy "any asset they want".

He then goes on to list all kinds of assets, including visits to yard sales and (h)opium dens.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:05 | 636109 frankTHE COIN
frankTHE COIN's picture

Yeah i saw that too. It looked like Steve rushed things a bit to make that appointment.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:09 | 636123 Sancho Ponzi
Sancho Ponzi's picture

Hey Steve, you may want to read this:

'What types of securities are eligible collateral for a TALF loan?

 

TALF loans are used to finance the purchase of certain asset-backed securities that have a credit rating in the highest long-term or short-term investment-grade rating category from two or more major nationally recognized rating organizations.

Eligible securities must be student loans, credit card loans, equipment loans, floorplan loans (to finance auto dealer inventories), small business loans fully guaranteed as to principal and interest by the U.S. Small Business Administration, or receivables created by principal and interest, tax and insurance, and corporate advances made by Fannie Mae- or Freddie Mac-approved residential mortgage servicers under pooling and servicing agreements. In general, eligible securities must be issued on or after January 1, 2009.'

http://www.tiaa-cref.org/public/about/press/about_us/releases/pressrelease275.html

 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:14 | 636144 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Damn, that's disappointing.

Looks like I'm going short yard sales and (h)opium dens. :>)

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:21 | 636175 Sancho Ponzi
Sancho Ponzi's picture

Of course all you have to do in these times to circumvent rules, regulations, laws, constitutionality, ratings, legislation, etc. is to play the 'Crisis' card.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:35 | 636225 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

They already have. It goes so far beyond this little gem, which was published once and never seen again.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/may2006/nf20060523_2210.htm?campaign_id=rss_daily

Intelligence Czar Can Waive SEC Rules

Now, the White House's top spymaster can cite national security to exempt businesses from reporting requirements.

President George W. Bush has bestowed on his intelligence czar, John Negroponte, broad authority, in the name of national security, to excuse publicly traded companies from their usual accounting and securities-disclosure obligations. Notice of the development came in a brief entry in the Federal Register, dated May 5, 2006, that was opaque to the untrained eye.

 

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:40 | 637908 agrotera
agrotera's picture

Thank you CD!  if it wouldn't be too much trouble and you have it avail, will you please give me a copy of the Jan 2009 order that Pres O signed to expand Bush's dictation....it was surmised that it was so that banks could submit pretend docs to the SEC since they are sacred as determined by the leaders of our country, the privately held federal reserve corp--of course to cover up that TARP was a heist and that the big TBTF and ms, gs, c were also out of business when the money got passed out in Oct 2008.  I unfortunately didn't make a copy of the info and can't find it anywhere...if you (or anyone) has a copy, and reference, i would be most grateful if you would share here!!!

best regards!!

 

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 02:01 | 637363 snowball777
Sat, 10/09/2010 - 23:03 | 638791 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

or lend treasuries against unused frequent flyer miles (ya, no black out dates for bennie yet), securitized sub-prime Harley's and SocGen's potatoes

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:39 | 635991 RecoveringDebtJunkie
RecoveringDebtJunkie's picture

"This can be done with a resolution trust corporation, the way we cleaned up the S&Ls. The system got back on its feet faster because we grappled with the problems."

This is the statement of someone who clearly doesn't understand the magnitude of our predicament. Discounts and debt for equity swaps? Give me a break. You had a 300% private debt to GDP ratio, banks leveraging up 60:1, global derivatives of $600T+ notional value and generally the greatest misallocation of capital ever known to man. What we need is a great reduction in economic complexity, not some damn resolution trust corporation.

http://peakcomplexity.blogspot.com/2010/09/limits-to-complexity.html

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:16 | 636150 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

I can appreciate what you're saying. BUT..............

Before we squash the idea of a RTC, let's get them to agree they need a RTC. You can't get the junkie into rehab (or at least to stay in rehab) until they agree they need rehab.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:31 | 636215 RecoveringDebtJunkie
RecoveringDebtJunkie's picture

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, BUT I know that not only will we not get the RTC, people like Janet will keep thinking the RTC is the end goal and we will never have a more appropriate discussion about what's happening in the world. We are the addicts, the banksters are the pushers, and the RTC is not so much rehab as it is a temporary switch to a lower dosage, while we keep our fingers crossed that maybe next time we won't be tempted to go on a fear & loathing style drug binge again.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 21:51 | 637094 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

The bartender has a vested interest in preventing rehab.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 13:02 | 637949 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

So you're saying the bartender has a conflict of interest.

Say it ain't so Rocky, say it ain't so. :>)

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 17:06 | 638364 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

All the ones I've met wanted me coming back. 

But that's been a long time ago...

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 18:11 | 638429 RecoveringDebtJunkie
RecoveringDebtJunkie's picture

True enough, but the alcoholic also has a vested interest in avoiding rehab and getting another drink. An extremely short-sighted interest, but an interest nonetheless. Without genuine bottom-up transformation, we have nothing, and no RTC will change that reality.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 01:45 | 637354 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Once an RTC clears an MBS, CDO, etc. and finds more claimants in the line for the very same mortgage(s) the RTC "thought' was 100% spoken-for, then what?  Some very unhappy Saudis, Germans, etc. are gonna black-list the US Govt.  Are we prepared to wage war on dozens of different countries, denying their resources to the US?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:26 | 636189 Assetman
Assetman's picture

Okay, how about a "really big" Resolution Trust Corporation, then??? ;)

I agree about this magnitude of the problem, as well as the need to reduce the complexity.

But what sort of tools do you propose to get FROM the massively complex TO the basics... without some mechanism to liquidate the mess that's there?

Are you a "mark it zero" sort of guy?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:37 | 636230 RecoveringDebtJunkie
RecoveringDebtJunkie's picture

I'm all for a RTC, but not in a vacuum. We need to combine that with fundamental reforms of our monetary and energy systems. We need to understand that this isn't the 1980's, and we're not facing another S&L crisis. This is a major inflection point, and our governments need to primarily help people become robust to that reaity.

Here is a piece I recently wrote on some ways in which they can do that - http://peakcomplexity.blogspot.com/2010/10/choice-architecture-capitalizing-on.html

BTW I shouldn't have said we don't need "some damn resolution trust", but we don't need just some damn resolution trust.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 01:07 | 637335 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

They were over the line, of course you have to mark it a zero!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiQmQhA-OrM

Mark it zero, or they will enter a world of pain!

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 09:30 | 639144 fallst
fallst's picture

Just have the Quants incorporate this Algo    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward-backward_algorithm

Then go back in time and shift the SIV's, Repo 105's, and All CDS, to that parallel universe.

 

Top Men are working on it, as we speak.

 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:53 | 636055 jbc77
jbc77's picture

Thanks Janet for being a voice of reason in a room full of ass hats.

I pray to Jesus Christ my almighty father that he makes these sons-of-a-bitch bankers pay.

I am so fucking sick of these crooks in suits, from politicians down to our own president. I hope they all get run over by a Mack truck. They destroyed our country and sucked it's citizens dry. They deserve to fucking die.

 

 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:33 | 636219 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Someone from the Banks, or the Admin is on here, they JUNKED YOU!

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 16:07 | 636382 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

they have been for a week or so

look at all the strange junk marks

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:54 | 636058 John McCloy
John McCloy's picture

OT: 

Second time in as many days that Alex Jones has referenced Zero Hedge relating to the Fed now largest holder of U.S. debt. More interesting he used it in his interview with our 2012 President Ron Paul

http://www.youtube.com/user/thealexjoneschannel?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/1/N4bXb...

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 22:03 | 637111 BrosMacManus
BrosMacManus's picture

Beck did too, couple of days back.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 20:08 | 638562 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

our 2012 President Ron Paul

Thanks John.  That made my day.  One can hope.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:55 | 636060 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Oh, so now that the bill has shown up for the banker crack and whore fest, theyre trying to pin it on their next door neighbors door?

'Handle it like the RTC did with the S&L's?' Thats like setting a moustrap for an elephant infestation! S&L was what, a few billions range? This is a couple quadrillions? Who's gonna pay THAT back??

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 21:08 | 636964 Bob
Bob's picture

The S&L was roughly $1T.  This, on the other hand, is more like . . . damn, it's hard to say, but all those elite properties, toys and entertainments don't come cheap.  Not to mention their securities and other assets.  It's gotta be one helluva lot more than a measly Trillion.  Hell, ponzietard Madoff had billions as a one man band.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 20:13 | 638568 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

Bob - Not $1T.  Where did you get that from? 

More like - "The ultimate cost of the crisis is estimated to have totaled around $160.1 billion, about $124.6 billion of which was directly paid for by the US government via a financial bailout under the leadership of George H.W. Bush"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis

Different order of magnitude ... and then some.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 10:09 | 639167 Bob
Bob's picture

Man, I've read so much stuff recently that I don't remember the source, but it seemed authoritative or I wouldn't have filed it in the old brain. I do recall that the source was somebody who had been centrally involved in the resolution. 

Yeah, that is nearly an order of magnitude.  Beats me.  If wiki is right, that seems to throw some additional doubt upon whether another resolution action would work out the same. 

Perhaps the $1T would be the nominal amounts unwound and the ulimate costs to the taxpayer were  about $120B+?  That would make some sense.

 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:59 | 636084 John McCloy
John McCloy's picture

Bank of America finally cliff diving. Who wants to be long this weekend heading into mortgage gate just beginning the rumblings. Me thinks Tyler is right and this may turn into another TARP 2 shakedown. 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:05 | 636108 Ragnarok
Ragnarok's picture

From my observation it takes about 3-4 weeks for the news I see on ZH to be reported and comprehended in the MSM. So sometime late next week or the week after..... wear a rain coat.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:11 | 636131 frankTHE COIN
frankTHE COIN's picture

Definitely. The 1998 Asian Contagion started with the Thai Baht and then eventually all hell broke loose.

TD is worth 10 Baht collapses with his knowledge and reporting.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:36 | 636234 DosZap
DosZap's picture

John,

Really, do you see anyway that THIS can be stopped without TARP 2?.

Sorry, I do not.

I agree w/Tyler............also.

 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 16:04 | 636370 John McCloy
John McCloy's picture

Further craft the "accounting rules"? Already played that game however. 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 14:59 | 636085 Everyman
Everyman's picture

Every bank CEO and every creator of MBS should be taken out behind the building and shot in the head.

Simple as that.

You cannot committ theft and fraud on this scale and get away with it.

OPEN SEASON on BANKERS and FINANCIAL HOUSES!!!!

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:30 | 636207 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

i might be wrong, but i'm beginning to think you have an ulterior motive in continuing to post your calls for extreme violence over and over and over again.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 16:17 | 636417 aerojet
aerojet's picture

It's called frustration--a rational man can only watch massive crimes take place and then go completely un-punished (and even rewarded) right before his eyes and not want to hoist the black flag.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 23:06 | 637183 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

didn't say i didn't understand the frustration or what it feels like to be consumed by it..  nor did i question the 'morality' or effectiveness of such a method.  although it might be an interesting discussion to have, it's best to have elsewhere so as not to hijack the thread (the forum maybe?).

it wasn't what was said that was questioned, but the volume & frequency of the loaded language used to make the argument.   COINTELPRO 101 : to successfully discredit & defuse the power of an idea, use constant repetition of extreme language & possibilities to draw out the basest elements of human nature in order to identify the group espousing the idea as dangerous radicals bent on violence & destruction & 'anarchy' in the court of public opinion.   works like a charm every time, even when the members are 'anonymous'.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 02:09 | 637370 snowball777
snowball777's picture

To keep sheep under control, make sure they feel that expressing themselves is frowned upon, regardless of context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AR_d6b8-Jg

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 22:55 | 638723 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

please elaborate snowball.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 23:40 | 638826 snowball777
snowball777's picture

In essence, there are as many attempting to artificially pacify as instigate.

Using walls formed from such fluff as political correctness or other more overt censorship, they work to prevent those who would change the status quo from taking action by carefully defining the language of debate and trimming it like an obsessive-compulsive bonsai artist.

 

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 13:45 | 639487 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

i see your point and happen to agree with it to a point.   but if you are insinuating that my initial comment was advocating censorship or political correctness, you are sorely mistaken.   and you are just as much of a bonsai artist as myself or everyman or anyone else here.   that's the point of a self-organizing system. 

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 20:19 | 638576 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

tip e. canoe - I hear what you're saying.  Entrapment is a well used tool of the state.  No need to get violent at this point.  If everyone just stops doing their bit to prop up the Ponzi, it will be over and we can rebuild.

Even if Everyman is not a provoceteur, he is being useful to some as such.

 

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 04:45 | 639028 Voluntary Exchange
Voluntary Exchange's picture

+1   A clearly defined and highly just  rational for refusal to cooperate by a committed  core  and documentation to get the non-cooperation publicized will be able to inspire,instruct, and galvanized those who are on the fence to tip the scales peacefully. This should be tried before there is little left to save and much larger numbers of people are trying to do desperate things to feed themselves. It will give all the world a workable example to follow.  Once a new genuine non-monopoly adjudication capacity exists in a stable free society then we can worry about restitution and arbitration.  Even though the tyrants and thieves have been responsible for the deaths and impoverishment of millions, the way out for all of us is a new path that is superior to the mistakes that usually happen, mistakes that form the seeds for new despotism to arise. Who agrees?

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 09:02 | 639128 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

I agree VE that we need a new path.  For now, I'll call it the Junk don't make you happy path.

I think if enough people choose to do the right thing, this will be over.

Walden Pond is a good read for anyone who hasn't done so yet.  To me it was startling that back in a time, when life was supposed to be such a struggle, here was a great guy, Thureau saying, descibing, demonstrating how you don't need all that junk you're trying to collect.

Many people are kind of manic in their need to collect ever bigger piles of junk.  Just stop and find a truer way to be happy.  Be happy w/o junk.  <-- New path name.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 16:17 | 636418 VWbug
VWbug's picture

he's just one of many here who talk about killing people every chance they get.

go to any post and make a comment about what supplies you need for the coming mad max world and watch what comes out of the woodwork.

guns and ammo is top of the list, which is then followed by exactly how many times you need to shoot each of your neighbours that are trying to take your stuff.

 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 20:33 | 636969 Bob
Bob's picture

one can only hope it's not their neighbors they take out first. 

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 02:11 | 637375 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Sadly, the type we're discussing and their Napoleonic issues don't leave much room for deterministic behavior or rational thought.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 23:00 | 637199 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

just to be clear, don't care for guns myself, but got no beef with the 2nd amendment.  in fact, i choose to believe that if there was a healthier respect for them, our society would be much less violent -- physically, mentally, emotionally, economically.  methinks the swiss are onto something in their view.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 01:54 | 637358 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

An armed society is a polite society!

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 02:10 | 637372 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Works fucking great in Somalia, huh?

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 19:43 | 638532 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

 - .

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 20:24 | 638588 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

snowball - That got a chuckle out of me.  But let's say you're in Somalia at some point in the future, or something like Somalia instead, comes to you.  Do you wan to be unarmed?

I believe the Founders look wiser every day as this tragedy of deceit unfolds.  As such, I support the 2nd Amendment too.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 23:43 | 638829 snowball777
snowball777's picture

I support the 2nd amendment as well, but what I don't support is using bass-ackwards logic to attempt to bolster said position. A well-armed society isn't 'polite'...it's resistant to tyranny. Don't pretend that comes with benefits that it doesn't (more firearms means more accidental and not-so-accidental deaths) and keep your eyes on the prize.

 

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 12:48 | 639399 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

It's only resistant to tyranny if the society is trained and vigilant. Who taught you logic? The Swiss are your guide:

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/articles/swiss_teen_rifle_festival.html

Try this one: Guns sales up in a big, big way in 2009. FBI reports crime went down. Just sayin'.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 17:12 | 639771 chopper read
chopper read's picture

+357

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 05:19 | 639034 Voluntary Exchange
Voluntary Exchange's picture

If the armed groups worked on defending and preserving the wealth producers and stopping the predators, and obtained an appropriate just compensation for doing this service then yes, it would work Fxxxing great in Somalia.  Do you understand what is happening over there and the nature of the ignorance and desperation? Might does not make right, but when you understand the situation, just might can preserve the right (and inspire and instruct the ignorant to learn a better way). What is happening in Somalia is what often happens when ignorant people become desperate and continue to think inside the box. Your focus on their observed action without pointing out the the underlying misconceptions does nothing to help cure the ignorance and offer a way outside the box.

The way out of the box is to start to understand the situation you face and then take appropriate action. To "see" beyond the "box". What it boils down to is basically behaving like men (who think) rather than behaving like beasts. People who understand and are willing to live justly (voluntary exchange, non predation), and are armed and committed to preserving their freedom in a just manner are a different category than those who lack any of these key ingredients. I hope you can appreciate the differences.

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 20:32 | 644877 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

Good stuff - VE

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 20:03 | 636937 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

Got a better plan?  ..oh, sorry, you actually think this will be solved at the polls?! roflmffao!!

Look, circa April 1775 there were colonists who just couldn't believe that a segment of their society began to advocate violence against the legions of King George.  There comes a time, don't know when that will be, but there comes a time...

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 22:20 | 637136 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

"you actually think this will be solved at the polls?"

i do actually, but only if Willie Nelson decides to run for prez in 2012.  until then, i'm writing in Jim Traficant for every single office i can.   and you?

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 20:25 | 638591 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

No solution at the polls.  Stop participating is the solution.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 22:34 | 638733 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

maybe, but Haiti had something like less than a 20% turnout rate in the last election and look where that got them, even before the earthquake.   i prefer to take an active participation in taking the farce to dada land so that maybe eventually even the most ignorant of us 'sheeple' can figure it out.  but again, to each his own.   my way is not the highway, just my way.  everyone must choose their own path, yes?  

(and fwiw, it took me 20 years of being an eligible voter to even make an effort to do it and i always make sure to take some mind-twisting bong hits beforehand just to throw a non-conformist wrench into the machine.  plus i refuse to vote for anyone who's actually on the ballot.  voting is fun, if you want it.)

 

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 00:18 | 638866 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

I like the pre-vote adjustments idea.  I always voted, usually for 3rd parties.  The vote was scammed in 2004 by Dubya and Diebold, so it really is kind of useless.  But voting or not, a real way to make a difference is to stop participating.  I stopped making/realizing all but minor profit.  I couldn't stand my taxes going to the GWOT, the murder of innocents.  I got self-sufficient on the land.  I got good at my accoustic Fender for entertainment.  Going off to see friends soon with a similar outlook and help them build their house.

Americans are wedded to consuming junk as a way to achieve happiness.  I had a lot materially and realized that for me anyways, junk don't make me happy.  I watched very wealthy people around me who I could see would never be satisfied, always salivating on the hampster wheel, making it spin faster and faster, but never becoming more human, happy or content.

If everyone found a way to stop consuming and stop paying taxes, the nightmare would be over and we would be a free people once again IMO.

Good luck Tip e.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 05:48 | 639043 Voluntary Exchange
Voluntary Exchange's picture

It is time to synthesize a new reality.  In the long run, resorting to political power will always be a failure. The objective is the elimination of political power, to maintain eternal vigilance against monopolies of force and monopolies of adjudication. To live by voluntary exchange. This is achieved though free market forces and choosing non-monopoly adjudication and security services.The idea is to empower people in a systemic way such that the undesirable tendencies in some of us will be effectively held at bay and even reformed by the individual actions of those most aware of individual torts on a local basis and those who are empowered  to challenge these actions though adjudication, and freely employing their "power of the purse" also on a local scale. It is a network system and as such, highly stable and resilient.

As a species we now have the understanding to move beyond the mistakes of the past.  Come join us to make a free, prosperous, just, and peaceful future that will take mankind to the stars.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 23:17 | 637202 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

some of y'all need to reread rule #4.

the yellow flag still stands until it stands corrected.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 02:04 | 637367 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

Yeah the word that comes to mind is provocateur. 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 19:04 | 636826 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Everyman- I simply CANNOT agree with shooting them.

I say a guillotine and they bring their own basket.

I know we jest about this, but the day is rapidly coming. 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 19:21 | 636864 Everyman
Everyman's picture

I actually feel they should be "impaled" for the damage they have done to people.  Icannot believe that there is a crowd out there that "condones" their behavior by not vigerously opposing it.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 22:17 | 637129 LeBalance
LeBalance's picture

By the Coinage Act of 1792 the penalty for degradation of the coinage is Death.

So is our discussion merely one of enforcing the laws as they appear on the books?

LOL, one could make a case that the folks in question are ex-US, but I think that as foreign agents they can also be tried for espionage and given the same penalty.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 06:08 | 639045 Voluntary Exchange
Voluntary Exchange's picture

There is another way! An "eye for an eye" will only take you so far, and that "so far" is an endless circle!  Unless you build from a foundation of understanding and love of others (despite their flaws and crimes -and we all have "flaws" and all have committed "crimes") your actions will confine you to a circle that will ultimately return to a place similar to where you are at today.  Step outside the "known" and see the world in a new way. 

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 15:04 | 638169 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Let's go back to the beginning of this nation.  When Mother England stiff-armed the colonists, only Very Wobbly Buggy people would say- WRITE A STRONGLY WORDED LETTER.

The CRIMINAL FRAUDULENT ACTS of CRIMINAL BANKSTERS have brought the country to its knees and decimated many, many individuals and families.

Their PUPPET- Benny and the Inkjets are on a dangerous path toward destruction of the US dollar- Treason by any measure.

The solution is structural and not in printing more HOT money for his masters.

And I will repeat, Janet is hot. I wouldn't kick her out of bed for eating crackers.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 17:18 | 639782 chopper read
chopper read's picture

Their PUPPET- Benny and the Inkjets are on a dangerous path toward destruction of the US dollar- Treason by any measure.

 

the polls are where we settle scores until they come for our gold and guns.  then, they will have gone too far.  guns are for insurance that we will not be trampled under foot without a fight.   

 

...until then, VOTE, BITCHEZ!

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 02:16 | 637376 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Too painless.

He was captured after the battle, and condemned to sit on a heated smoldering iron throne with a heated iron crown on his head and a heated sceptre in his hand (mocking at his ambition to be king). While Dózsa was suffering, a procession of 9 fellow rebels, who had been starved beforehand, were led to such throne. In the lead, was Dózsa's younger brother, Gergely, who was cut in three before Dózsa despite György asking for Gergely to be spared. Next, executioners removed hot pliers from fire and forced them into György's skin. After pulling flesh from him, the remaining rebels were ordered to bite where the hot iron had been inserted and to swallow the matter. Those who refused, about 3 or 4, were simply cut up which prompted the remaining rebels to do as commanded. In the end, György died on the throne of iron from the damage that was inflicted while the rebels who obeyed were let go without further harm.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 01:56 | 637362 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

As long as you supply a list, maybe someone will go along with such an idea -- oh, and SOME PROOF of guilt would be helpful as well!

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 17:21 | 639785 chopper read
chopper read's picture

we can tie stones around Bernanke and throw him into the Long Island Sound.  If he floats, then he's a sorcerer!!

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 13:17 | 637972 macholatte
macholatte's picture

 

Every bank CEO and every creator of MBS should be taken out behind the building and shot in the head.

 

not behind the building....... no hiding. It should be the half time show of the Super Bowl broadcast globally. An auction should be set up so people could bid on the rights to execute a particular bad guy/gal.

 

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 17:22 | 639786 chopper read
chopper read's picture

whatever happened to the good old days of public executions?

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:00 | 636088 centerline
centerline's picture

OK, I will tell a true story here.

 

Back around the height of the run-up, I called a bank that shall not be named about opeing a HELOC on my house.  I was asked on the phone what I thought my house was worth, what I owed, what I made, etc.  I gave all truthful and conservative answers.

 

Anyhow, I was approved and given a sizeable, six-figure line of credit without any income verification or appraisal.  Nothing.  Nada.  Just a signature.  I knew at that moment the system was f****d.

 

(by the way, I used only a small portion of the HELOC to add onto my house - which was purchased long before the run-up.)

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 20:26 | 636963 msjimmied
msjimmied's picture

Happened a whole lot more than you realize. The other really interesting story is the Heloc angle. I have heard of two instances where one guy sold his house on a short sale, and the heloc was not paid off in closing. It did not even show up, two different lenders entirely, but you would think they would know? The other was a guy who was offered a heloc on a property he used to own, not just offered as apply for it offered, a checkbook and line of credit was already established and paper work sent to his new house!

So, would you think there is a good reason they are forging papers to foreclose? It may be more FUBAR than we think.

 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 20:35 | 636973 Bob
Bob's picture

If you have worked in corporate america, you know it's gotta be true. 

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 01:04 | 637336 Hillbillyfreak
Hillbillyfreak's picture

I will ditto your comments.  I did the same thing.  Got a home equity line of credit, 6 figures, in 2007, 2008.  Can't remember, but it was after the s*** was hitting the fan and thought there is no way I will be approved for this.  Wanted access to "cash" just in case.   No problem, business as usual.  Never used it.  Thank God.  Subsequently, got laid off, rehired as independent contractor (=work twice as much, get paid half as much). Wifey got laid off.  I'd be living under an overpass now if I cashed the HELOC.  Remember, bankers motto - heads I win, tails you lose.   

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:00 | 636089 papaswamp
papaswamp's picture

I just wonder when it will dawn on the equities market that the banks are fucked....

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:21 | 636166 lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

TBTF in play. 

Banks aren`t fucked taxpayers are.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:54 | 636333 RichardENixon
RichardENixon's picture

Yep. Add this to the tab.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 20:36 | 636976 Bob
Bob's picture

Too Big To Fix is dawning on people.  This will get very interesting.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 02:20 | 637383 snowball777
snowball777's picture

T-FUTS: Too Fucked Up To Survive

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:20 | 636167 HarryWanger
HarryWanger's picture

When somebody tells them. Right now, as hard as it may be to believe here at ZH, most people see a clusterfuck but don't see any economic ramifications. I've heard arguments on both sides on whether it will be a huge deal or just simply be swept under the rug. 

If this is going to have a big impact on banks and hit them hard, then you will see the market react. Until then, they see it as nothing to worry about.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 15:57 | 636347 VWbug
VWbug's picture

right.

so far all i have seen is that banks will need to hire more staff to do the clerical work regarding foreclosure.

So, employment will go up, house prices up, bank write offs down, bank costs up.

Banks are on total life support anyway, so who cares if costs go up?

Loser will be the taxpayer as always, and those who pay their debts.

Winners will be the freeloaders who bought houses they could never possibly afford.

 

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 19:07 | 636835 Kayman
Kayman's picture

You missed the skimmers, the lawyers, the brokers, the quants and the crooks.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 23:11 | 637211 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

ditto. I'm always amazed how people blame this on the "feeloader" borrowers. They don't write the laws, they don't lobby (make that own) the congress, they don't owe boatloads of statutory duties whose very purpose is to protect the investors and taxpayers from the "freeloader" borrower. 

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 09:54 | 637614 jplotinus
jplotinus's picture

The "freeloader" is analogous to the buyer of illegal street drugs.  Few things in life in society as currently constructed are more intoxicating than "easy money."  In the next step of the street drugs analogy, it is the seller of the drugs who is considered the main criminal, not the buyer.  You do big time in jail for being the "dealer" and you get sent to rehab for being the "buyer."

So it is in the mortgage and foreclosure crisis.

The "freeloader" may be just that, but the law comes down hard on the supplier of the drug who made a flat out fortune while engaging in wanton, large scale, nearly unprecedented, fraud.

Jail for the fraudsters.  Rehab (i.e., free house) for the borrowers.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:08 | 637640 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

good analogy and our lawmakers are a bloated binging Harvey Keitel in The Bad Lieutenant

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 16:22 | 636432 1100-TACTICAL-12
1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

Most people don't know & don't give a shit, Take my retired Fireman father in law I tried to strike up a conversation about this mortgage mess, he said I think I heard something about. Then I told him his pension probably held a whole shitload of'em, then the wheels started to turn a little I could see it in his eyes. These retired so called public servants think it's all just rosy.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 20:07 | 636941 bada boom
bada boom's picture

It is for some in certain states.  The public is on the hook for all bad investments.  Higher taxes will take care of that as they destroy what's left of their population.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 20:33 | 638598 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

Until there is no more money.  I predict the public will renege on the bloated pensions in due time.

Fri, 10/08/2010 - 23:18 | 637216 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

maybe because they're the ones most indoctrinated into the system?   which make them the most ripe for edumication.   at least then they'll begin to have a more unbiased position from which to make an opinion about the real value of such a system.

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