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VIPS Sends Memo To Obama Warning Israel May Bomb Iran "As Early As This Month"
The Steering Group of the Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity
(VIPS) which consists of Phil Giraldi, former CIA (20 years), Larry
Johnson, former CIA; DoS, (24 years), W. Patrick Lang, Col., USA,
Special Forces (ret.); Director of HUMINT Collection, Defense
Intelligence Agency (30 years), Ray McGovern, US Army Intelligence
Officer, CIA (30 years), Coleen Rowley, FBI (24 years), and Ann Wright,
Col., US Army Reserve (ret.), (29 years); Foreign Service Officer,
Department of State (16 years), have penned a memo to the president in
an attempt to alert him "to the likelihood that Israel
will attack Iran as early as this month. This would likely lead to a
wider war." Read on for the full memo by the activist group.
First appearing in TruthOut
Obama Warned Israel May Bomb Iran
MEMORANDUM FOR: The President
FROM: Veteran Intelligence
Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)
SUBJECT: War With Iran
We write to alert you to the likelihood that Israel
will attack Iran as early as this month. This would likely lead to a
wider war.
Israel’s leaders would calculate that once the battle
is joined, it will be politically untenable for you to give anything
less than unstinting support to Israel, no matter how the war started,
and that U.S. troops and weaponry would flow freely. Wider war could
eventually result in destruction of the state of Israel.
This can be stopped, but only if you move
quickly to pre-empt an Israeli attack by publicly condemning such a move
before it happens.
We believe that comments by senior American
officials, you included, reflect misplaced trust in Israeli Prime
Minister [Benjamin] Netanyahu.
Actually, the phrasing itself can be revealing, as
when CIA Director Panetta implied cavalierly that Washington leaves it
up to the Israelis to decide whether and when to attack Iran, and how
much “room” to give to the diplomatic effort.
On June 27, Panetta casually told ABC’s Jake Tapper,
“I think they are willing to give us the room to be able to try to
change Iran diplomatically … as opposed to changing them militarily.”
Similarly, the tone you struck referring to Netanyahu
and yourself in your July 7 interview with Israeli TV was distinctly
out of tune with decades of unfortunate history with Israeli leaders.
“Neither of us try to surprise each other,” you said,
“and that approach is one that I think Prime Minister Netanyahu is
committed to.” You may wish to ask Vice President Biden to remind you of
the kind of surprises he has encountered in Israel.
Blindsiding has long been an arrow in Israel’s
quiver. During the emerging Middle East crisis in the spring of 1967,
some of us witnessed closely a flood of Israeli surprises and deception,
as Netanyahu’s predecessors feigned fear of an imminent Arab attack as
justification for starting a war to seize and occupy Arab territories.
We had long since concluded that Israel had been
exaggerating the Arab “threat” — well before 1982 when former Israeli
Prime Minister Menachem Begin publicly confessed:
“In June 1967, we had a choice. The Egyptian army
concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that [Egyptian
President] Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with
ourselves. We decided to attack him.”
Israel had, in fact, prepared well militarily and
also mounted provocations against its neighbors, in order to provoke a
response that could be used to justify expansion of its borders.
Given this record, one would be well advised to greet
with appropriate skepticism any private assurances Netanyahu may have
given you that Israel would not surprise you with an attack on Iran.
Netanyahu’s Calculations
Netanyahu believes he holds the high cards, largely
because of the strong support he enjoys in our Congress and our strongly
pro-Israel media. He reads your reluctance even to mention in
controversial bilateral issues publicly during his recent visit as
affirmation that he is in the catbird seat in the relationship.
During election years in the U.S. (including
mid-terms), Israeli leaders are particularly confident of the power they
and the Likud Lobby enjoy on the American political scene.
This prime minister learned well from Menachem Begin
and Ariel Sharon.
Netanyahu’s attitude comes through in a video taped
nine years ago and shown on Israeli TV, in which he bragged about how he
deceived President Clinton into believing he (Netanyahu) was helping
implement the Oslo accords when he was actually destroying them.
The tape displays a contemptuous attitude toward —
and wonderment at — an America so easily influenced by Israel.
Netanyahu says:
“America is something that can be easily moved. Moved
in the right direction. … They won’t get in our way … Eighty percent of
the Americans support us. It’s absurd.”
Israeli columnist Gideon Levy wrote that the video
shows Netanyahu to be “a con artist … who thinks that Washington is in
his pocket and that he can pull the wool over its eyes,” adding that
such behavior “does not change over the years.”
As mentioned above, Netanyahu has had instructive
role models.
None other than Gen. Brent Scowcroft told the
Financial Times that former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon had
George W. Bush “mesmerized;” that “Sharon just has him “wrapped around
his little finger.”
(Scowcroft was promptly relieved of his duties as
chair of the prestigious President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board
and told never again to darken the White House doorstep.)
If further proof of American political support for
Netanyahu were needed, it was manifest when Senators McCain, Lieberman,
and Graham visited Israel during the second week of July.
Lieberman asserted that there is wide support in
Congress for using all means to keep Iran from becoming a nuclear power,
including “through military actions if we must.” Graham was equally
explicit: “The Congress has Israel’s back,” he said.
More recently, 47 House Republicans have signed onto
H.R. 1553 declaring “support for Israel’s right to use all means
necessary to confront and eliminate nuclear threats posed by Iran …
including the use of military force.”
The power of the Likud Lobby, especially in an
election year, facilitates Netanyahu’s attempts to convince those few of
his colleagues who need convincing that there may never be a more
auspicious time to bring about “regime change” in Tehran.
And, as we hope your advisers have told you, regime
change, not Iranian nuclear weapons, is Israel’s primary concern.
If Israel’s professed fear that one or two nuclear
weapons in Iran’s arsenal would be a game changer, one would have
expected Israeli leaders to jump up and down with glee at the
possibility of seeing half of Iran’s low enriched uranium shipped
abroad.
Instead, they dismissed as a “trick” the tripartite
deal, brokered by Turkey and Brazil with your personal encouragement,
that would ship half of Iran’s low enriched uranium outside Tehran’s
control.
The National Intelligence Estimate
The Israelis have been looking on intently as the
U.S. intelligence community attempts to update, in a “Memorandum to
Holders,” the NIE of November 2007 on Iran’s nuclear program. It is
worth recalling a couple of that Estimate’s key judgments:
“We judge with high confidence that in fall of 2003
Tehran halted its nuclear weapons program. … We assess with moderate
confidence Tehran has not restarted its nuclear program as of mid-2007,
but we do not know whether it currently intends to develop nuclear
weapons …”
Earlier this year, public congressional testimony by
former Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair (February 1 &
2) and Defense Intelligence Agency Director Gen. Ronald Burgess with
Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Gen. James Cartwright (April 14) did
not alter those key judgments.
Blair and others continued to underscore the
intelligence community’s agnosticism on one key point: as Blair put it
earlier this year, “We do not know if Iran will eventually decide to
build a nuclear weapon.”
The media have reported off-the-cuff comments by
Panetta and by you, with a darker appraisal — with you telling Israeli
TV “… all indicators are that they [the Iranians] are in fact pursuing a
nuclear weapon;” and Panetta telling ABC, “I think they continue to
work on designs in that area [of weaponization].”
Panetta hastened to add, though, that in Tehran,
“There is a continuing debate right now as to whether or not they ought
to proceed with the bomb.”
Israel probably believes it must give more weight to
the official testimony of Blair, Burgess, and Cartwright, which dovetail
with the earlier NIE, and the Israelis are afraid that the long-delayed
Memorandum to Holders of the 2007 NIE will essentially affirm that
Estimate’s key judgments.
Our sources tell us that an honest Memorandum to
Holders is likely to do precisely that, and that they suspect that the
several-months-long delay means intelligence judgments are being “fixed”
around the policy — as was the case before the attack on Iraq.
One War Prevented
The key judgments of the November 2007 NIE shoved an
iron rod into the wheel spokes of the Dick Cheney-led juggernaut rolling
toward war on Iran. The NIE infuriated Israel leaders eager to attack
before President Bush and Vice President Cheney left office. This time,
Netanyahu fears that issuance of an honest Memorandum might have similar
effect.
Bottom line: more incentive for Israel to pre-empt
such an Estimate by striking Iran sooner rather than later.
Last week’s announcement that U.S. officials will
meet next month with Iranian counterparts to resume talks on ways to
arrange higher enrichment of Iranian low enriched uranium for Tehran’s
medical research reactor was welcome news to all but the Israeli
leaders.
In addition, Iran reportedly has said it would be
prepared to halt enrichment to 20 percent (the level needed for the
medical research reactor), and has made it clear that it looks forward
to the resumption of talks.
Again, an agreement that would send a large portion
of Iran’s LEU abroad would, at a minimum, hinder progress toward nuclear
weapons, should Iran decide to develop them. But it would also greatly
weaken Israel’s scariest rationale for an attack on Iran.
Bottom line: with the talks on what Israel’s leaders
earlier labeled a “trick” now scheduled to resume in September,
incentive builds in Tel Aviv for the Israelis to attack before any such
agreement can be reached.
We’ll say it again: the objective is regime change.
Creating synthetic fear of Iranian nuclear weapons is simply the best
way to “justify” bringing about regime change. Worked well for Iraq, no?
Another War in Need of Prevention
A strong public statement by you, personally warning
Israel not to attack Iran would most probably head off such an Israeli
move. Follow-up might include dispatching Adm. Mullen to Tel Aviv with
military-to-military instructions to Israel: Don’t Even Think of It.
In the wake of the 2007 NIE, President Bush overruled
Vice President Cheney and sent Adm. Mullen to Israel to impart that
hard message. A much-relieved Mullen arrived home that spring sure of
step and grateful that he had dodged the likelihood of being on the end
of a Cheney-inspired order for him to send U.S. forces into war with
Iran.
This time around, Mullen returned with sweaty palms
from a visit to Israel in February 2010. Ever since, he has been
worrying aloud that Israel might mousetrap the U.S. into war with Iran,
while adding the obligatory assurance that the Pentagon does have an
attack plan for Iran, if needed.
In contrast to his experience in 2008, though, Mullen
seemed troubled that Israel’s leaders did not take his warnings
seriously.
While in Israel, Mullen insisted publicly that an
attack on Iran would be “a big, big, big problem for all of us, and I
worry a great deal about the unintended consequences.”
After his return, at a Pentagon press conference on
Feb. 22 Mullen drove home the same point. After reciting the usual
boilerplate about Iran being “on the path to achieve nuclear
weaponization” and its “desire to dominate its neighbors,” he included
the following in his prepared remarks:
“For now, the diplomatic and the economic levers of
international power are and ought to be the levers first pulled. Indeed,
I would hope they are always and consistently pulled. No strike,
however effective, will be, in and of itself, decisive.”
Unlike younger generals — David Petraeus, for example
— Adm. Mullen served in the Vietnam War. That experience is probably
what prompts asides like this: “I would remind everyone of an essential
truth: War is bloody and uneven. It’s messy and ugly and incredibly
wasteful …”
Although the immediate context for that remark was
Afghanistan, Mullen has underscored time and again that war with Iran
would be a far larger disaster. Those with a modicum of familiarity with
the military, strategic and economic equities at stake know he is
right.
Other Steps
In 2008, after Mullen read the Israelis the riot act,
they put their pre-emptive plans for Iran aside. With that mission
accomplished, Mullen gave serious thought to ways to prevent any
unintended (or, for that matter, deliberately provoked) incidents in the
crowded Persian Gulf that could lead to wider hostilities.
Mullen sent up an interesting trial balloon at a July
2, 2008, press conference, when he indicated that military-to-military
dialogue could “add to a better understanding” between the U.S. and
Iran. But nothing more was heard of this overture, probably because
Cheney ordered him to drop it.
It was a good idea — still is. The danger of a
U.S.-Iranian confrontation in the crowded Persian Gulf has not been
addressed, and should be. Establishment of a direct communications link
between top military officials in Washington and Tehran would reduce the
danger of an accident, miscalculation, or covert, false-flag attack.
In our view, that should be done immediately —
particularly since recently introduced sanctions assert a right to
inspect Iranian ships. The naval commander of the Iranian Revolutionary
Guards reportedly has threatened “a response in the Persian Gulf and the
Strait of Hormuz,” if anyone tries to inspect Iranian ships in
international waters.
Another safety valve would result from successful
negotiation of the kind of bilateral “incidents-at-sea” protocol that
was concluded with the Russians in 1972 during a period of relatively
high tension.
With only interim nobodies at the helm of the
intelligence community, you may wish to consider knocking some heads
together yourself and insisting that it finish an honest Memorandum to
Holders of the 2007 NIE by mid-August — recording any dissents, as
necessary.
Sadly, our former colleagues tell us that
politicization of intelligence analysis did not end with the departure
of Bush and Cheney…and that the problem is acute even at the State
Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research, which in the past has
done some of the best professional, objective, tell-it-like-it-is
analysis.
Pundits, Think Tanks: Missing the Point
As you may have noticed, most of page one of Sunday’s
Washington Post Outlook section was given to an article titled, “A
Nuclear Iran: Would America Strike to Prevent It? — Imagining Obama’s
Response to an Iranian Missile Crisis.”
Page five was dominated by the rest of the article,
under the title “Who will blink first when Iran is on the brink?”
A page-wide photo of a missile rolling past Iranian
dignitaries on a reviewing stand (reminiscent of the familiar parades on
Red Square) is aimed at the centerfold of the Outlook section, as if
poised to blow it to smithereens.
Typically, the authors address the Iranian “threat”
as though it endangers the U.S., even though Secretary Clinton has
stated publicly that this is not the case. They write that one option
for the U.S. is “the lonely, unpopular path of taking military action
lacking allied consensus.” O Tempora, O Mores!
In less than a decade, wars of aggression have become
nothing more than lonely, unpopular paths.
What is perhaps most remarkable, though, is that the
word Israel is nowhere to be found in this very long article. Similar
think pieces, including some from relatively progressive think tanks,
also address these issues as though they were simply bilateral
U.S.-Iranian problems, with little or no attention to Israel.
Guns of August?
The stakes could hardly be higher. Letting slip the
dogs of war would have immense repercussions. Again, we hope that Adm.
Mullen and others have given you comprehensive briefings on them.
Netanyahu would be taking a fateful gamble by
attacking Iran, with high risk to everyone involved. The worst, but
conceivable case, has Netanyahu playing — unintentionally — Dr.
Kevorkian to the state of Israel.
Even if the U.S. were to be sucked into a war
provoked by Israel, there is absolutely no guarantee that the war would
come out well.
Were the U.S. to suffer significant casualties, and
were Americans to become aware that such losses came about because of
exaggerated Israeli claims of a nuclear threat from Iran, Israel could
lose much of its high standing in the United States.
There could even be an upsurge in anti-Semitism, as
Americans conclude that officials with dual loyalties in Congress and
the executive branch threw our troops into a war provoked, on false
pretenses, by Likudniks for their own narrow purposes.
We do not have a sense that major players in Tel Aviv
or in Washington are sufficiently sensitive to these critical factors.
You are in position to prevent this unfortunate, but
likely chain reaction. We allow for the possibility that Israeli
military action might not lead to a major regional war, but we consider
the chances of that much less than even.
Footnote: VIPS Experience
We VIPS have found ourselves in this position before.
We prepared our first Memorandum for the President on the afternoon of
February 5, 2003 after Colin Powell’s speech at the UN.
We had been watching how our profession was being
corrupted into serving up faux intelligence that was later criticized
(correctly) as “uncorroborated, contradicted, and nonexistent” —
adjectives used by former Senate Intelligence Committee chair Jay
Rockefeller after a five-year investigation by his committee.
As Powell spoke, we decided collectively that the
responsible thing to do was to try to warn the President before he acted
on misguided advice to attack Iraq. Unlike Powell, we did not claim
that our analysis was “irrefutable and undeniable.” We did conclude with
this warning:
“After watching Secretary Powell today, we are
convinced that you would be well served if you widened the discussion …
beyond the circle of those advisers clearly bent on a war for which we
see no compelling reason and from which we believe the unintended
consequences are likely to be catastrophic.”
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/downloads/vipstwelve.pdf
We take no satisfaction at having gotten it right on
Iraq. Others with claim to more immediate expertise on Iraq were issuing
similar warnings. But we were kept well away from the wagons circled by
Bush and Cheney.
Sadly, your own Vice President, who was then chair of
the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee, was among the most assiduous in
blocking opportunities for dissenting voices to be heard. This is part
of what brought on the worst foreign policy disaster in our nation’s
history.
We now believe that we may also be right on (and
right on the cusp of) another impending catastrophe of even wider scope —
Iran — on which another President, you, are not getting good advice
from your closed circle of advisers.
They are probably telling you that, since you have
privately counseled Prime Minister Netanyahu against attacking Iran, he
will not do it. This could simply be the familiar syndrome of telling
the President what they believe he wants to hear.
Quiz them; tell them others believe them to be dead
wrong on Netanyahu. The only positive here is that you — only you —can
prevent an Israeli attack on Iran.
Steering Group, Veteran Intelligence
Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)
Phil Giraldi, Directorate of Operations, CIA
(20 years)
Larry Johnson, Directorate of Intelligence,
CIA; Department of State, Department of Defense consultant (24 years)
W. Patrick Lang, Col., USA, Special Forces
(ret.); Senior Executive Service: Defense Intelligence Officer for
Middle East/South Asia, Director of HUMINT Collection, Defense
Intelligence Agency (30 years)
Ray McGovern, US Army Intelligence Officer,
Directorate of Intelligence, CIA (30 years)
Coleen Rowley, Special Agent and Minneapolis
Division Counsel, FBI (24 years)
Ann Wright, Col., US Army Reserve (ret.), (29
years); Foreign Service Officer, Department of State (16 years)
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If you have a military agenda but have been waiting around for a US administration with a wishy-washy foreign policy before you go pulling any triggers...now's your big chance.
I know it's evil to speak it, but a nasty little voice in the back of my head says that the biggest boon to world peace would be a self-inflicted smooth, glassy plain that covers a large portion of the Middle East.
Lots of short term death, but the benefit is a long-term cessation of hostilities. At least until the place stops glowing in a few thousand years.
Or maybe I'm just having a bad day. But since large groups of people there can't get along anyway, let's just give them all the short-range nukes and personal nuke vests they want. Then they can all gloriously do exactly what their various gods have ordered them to do.
And as a side benefit, the possibility of a nuclear winter might be enough to offset the planetary warming for awhile.
You know the place was a lot more peaceful before the Anglo-American establishment set up shop over there. Seems to me the problem is us not them. After all we were the ones to start radical Islam. So before you advocate genocide maybe you aught to think about the cause of the problem not the symptom.
Do a history check for me. Find the last time Iran invaded a nation. It's a lot longer ago then the US or Israel isn't it?
"Radical" Islam is merely non-secularized Medieval Islam. We -- the West -- didn't start it. Feudalism (more-or-less) ended in Europe, a few centuries after the Moors were expelled. Meanwhile, the Moors, Ottomans, etc, failed to keep up on these political developments until the early 1900s (basically because they managed to suppress their rebellions until the destruction of the Ottoman empire)
Secularism has always been a strong force in Iran. After all, the Iranians are Persians first, and Muslims second. This tends to be true in countries with secular governments and many coexisting religions, such as India, the US, etc.
Too late to protect the Faberge egg, now that baby tossed it on the floor.
Besides, I'm not advocating genocide. I'm just advocating personal responsibility. Those who want to nuke their neighbors should be considered personally responsible.
No need for Americans to dirty their hands with the actual war. They can just supply the armaments as usual. With enough nukes for all interested parties, human nature can just take its course.
It's not really genocide when you nuke just a few thousand people at a time. That's just a "police action."
Seems like a relatively peaceful solution to me. But then, I don't actually live there. Besides, production of tatical nukes creates a LOT of jobs all across the U.S.
"It's not really genocide when you nuke just a few thousand people at a time"
Wolfowitz: Dick, you changed the definition of torture, right?
Cheyney: Check.
Wolfowitz: How about "genocide"?
Cheyney: You get that nuke-powered heart prototype finished yet?
Actually it's not really genocide if you do it for political reasons. Raphael Lemkin, a Polish Jew who lost his family in the Holocaust, coined the term and worked toward recognizing such as an internationally prosecutable crime against humanity.
When the definition was officially codified by The UN in 1948 the Soviets, who were in the habit of wiping out whole populations for political purposes, had successfully lobbied to limit the definition to the "systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group" which is how it remains today.
To this day the Russian position on the still hotly debated "Holodomor genocide question" (1933 Ukrainian famine) boils down to: 'all those Ukrainians died because they were farmers' which, because of the official definition of genocide, is a lot different from: 'all those farmers died because they were Ukrainians.
Interesting - Thanks, and I see the Russian's point, but doubt "those people died because they were living in an area where we decided use a nuclear weapon" would fly. lol
You are no one on this thread unless you get junked.
What will they do when they find out who Uncle O is fronting for.
Once the bankers get the money they swing socialist, no?
The bankers now include the house of Saud and
they don't much like Achtungamjad.
Yes, the world need to make a cyst around the infection that is the middle east, just like our bodies do, before that conflict infects the rest of us.
Lemme guess, Dr. Sandi is an Israel-firster. You know Sandi, you could make aliyah and fight for Israel? Nahh, cajole Americans to do your dirty work. Pretty neat little trick, but nothing changes the fact more people are realizing every day that Israel is THE terrorist state.
No wonder it has no real friends, just countries it exploits.
Israh,
If Israel doesn't do it, WE are going to( been a topic of discussion for 2 weeks on even the MSM news)....even the rooskies are getting real skiddish about this Islamfascistnazi.He's a religious nutcake.
Israh,
If Israel doesn't do it, WE are going to( been a topic of discussion for 2 weeks on even the MSM news)....even the rooskies are getting real skiddish about this Islamfascistnazi.He's a religious nutcake.
The ass-kicking Xerxes received must have been very traumatic.
Right on Shameful.
But that and many other simple pieces of "evidence" are not nearly enough for the brainwashed mind.
I think it should be called "Radicalized" islam, not radical islam, as your post hints.
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com
Oh,
Or Islam is radical, is more like it.
Shameful, here is a 'history check' for you:
"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." --- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001
"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
I'm aware of the Jewish past. Coming from a hard line religious youth I learned a lot, I was in the Israel could do no wrong mindset as a teen. I try not to discuss their ills directly, not because they do not exist but people are irrational about it. When I say that in many eyes Israel can do no wrong I mean it. Israel could conduct any act (and I mean ANY act including open genocide), and people would rally behind them. A large block of the American psych is built in supporting Israel. Note how people get upset when the USS Liberty is brought up.
Though really in the long term the state of Israel is in trouble. The demographics say they are in trouble, the Muslims will out breed them much like the Muslim immigrants will out breed the Europeans in Europe. The real existential threat to Israel is the growing pop of none Jews, so they need a way to turn that back around. It's hard to "correct" demographics without the cover of violence or emergency.
Muslims don't produce anything of value - once the "welfare" (Oil, Aid or Social Security) dries out they will starve (and blame it on Israel too).
I guess we already reached peak muslimhood in Europe: All the welfare is now sponged up and no more is forthcoming due to the recession and the somewhat alternative muslim displays of gratitude that are getting nationalists elected everywhere. Such fun to watch.
Seems like the solution would be to give the entire Middle East back to Turkey. In retrospect they did a pretty good job.
How about a "glassy plain" over the NE US & Bible belt? Think that might solve "some" of the worlds ills and conflicts?
The question is how can we turn the Baptists against the Lutherans so that we can get the fireworks going. Or maybe we can encourage the Pentecostals to make a long-fantasized move on the Catholics.
"I love you and Jesus, Ma, so I'm headed for Omaha. I've strapped myself into a personal nuclear vest, and there's one on a timer in the pickup truck. When you hear that St. Mary's is gone, along with St. Peter and Paul, you'll know it was me. And remember to feed the goats when I'm gone."
Surely the Second Amendment also allows personal nuclear devices! And if it doesn't now, we can probably get a favorable 5-4 ruling from the Supremes if it can be shown to be good for nuclear sector investors.
why the backhand at the second amendment, dufus? personal protection is a lot diff than nuclear destruction, innit?
Why the personal attack? And why so touchy about the second amendment?
Get a life!
You are an idiot. Actually, even worse, you're a moron.
The second amendment is the only thing that has stopped the genocides from happening here in the U.S. that have happened all over the world in the past century.. Fucking shill...
And while i'm at it, I have a message for all of you Zionists and Neo-cons. You are fucked in the head if you think the next war for Israhell is going to go over well on the American public. It will be your doom.
Don't kid yourself - the only thing that has stopped the Genocides is the large land mass and relatively small population. If the fascists take over and want your land, your 'gun collection' isn't going to help you one little bit.
The Indians would perhaps disagree. And the civil war killed maybe 20% of the male population - which is pretty good even by European standards.
The Indians would perhaps disagree. And the civil war killed maybe 20% of the male population - which is pretty good even by European standards.
Now you got me all horny.
Thoreau,
What an assinine statement......
You an American?, do you know how this country was built, why we were the City On a Hill...............until the Marxists took it over?.
Guess not.
I regularly read Col. Lang's blog, and recommend it to anybody who has an interest in what he has to say. The comments and dialogue are excellent as well.
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/
I would love to see Iran get bombed.
Ever since I was 12 years old all I can remember is Iran taking hostages, burning American flags, calling the USA the great satan. Fuck them. They need to shut their fucking mouths.
Right on! I agree. I used to have a lot of Iranian friend when I lived in the usa, they were always apologizing for what they did back in iran. Let the fanatics produce something of value to mankind other than pistachios and oil then they can get the respect they demand.
Let the fanatics produce something of value to mankind...
OK, then, show us what you've got.
The Persians contributed nothing to mankind? Are you serious?
"I would love to see Iran get bombed."
But are you willing to pay the price? higher taxes? putting yourself in harm's way? creation of many more terrorists?
Last time (Iraq) the chickenhawks did it on the credit card .... we still owe for that
...and by 'thepower' you mean your own potential intellect?...but then again...I suspect, probably not...
Google is your friend...and by that of course I mean not a friend of your propaganda
http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2008/10/was-khomeini-agent-of-us-and-uk.html
The question is: how much of that was propaganda? How much do you actually know about Iran?
I would love to see Iran get bombed.
Ever since I was 12 years old all I can remember is Iran taking hostages, burning American flags, calling the USA the great satan. Fuck them. They need to shut their fucking mouths.
What could possibly possess a person to spout such ignorant and indecent garbage? It's as if you're proud of being mean and stupid.
we are in deep shit.
Yes ignorant for sure. Never learned history in school. From Wiki: Mohammad Mosaddegh 19 May 1882 – 5 March 1967) was the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran from 1951 to 1953 when he was overthrown in a coup d'état backed by the United States Central Intelligence Agency.
I won't post the whole thing but go back to your idiot box and stay there.
.
Fox News called.
They're upset because you've walked away from the TV and are reading blogs.
Get back in front of your TV for your next dose of propaganda. There's a good sheeple.
But if we let the world shred Israel, we could all live in peace (and wealth).
I've said it before, but the only war I'd love to see is the US attack Israel. I'd join immediately, and work for free!
Let readers learn for themselve just how subversive Israel-firsters are:
http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?11782-The-Hasbara-Handbook
Now that the word is out, Israel-firsters are doing damage control by editing the manual so it's not so offensive to us "Goyim". Just read the first few pages and you'll get the idea.
I would sign up in a heart beat to fight Israhell..
Could you imagine the peace and prosperity of the entire world if that cancer were to be removed?.. What a dream.. What a dream...
Buffoon...
Yea the Muslims never did anything before Israel was around. Jefferson was overreacting to the evil fucking neo cons when he sent the Marines to Barbary...you fucking assclown.
Charles Martel was fucking hallucinating on neo con peyote mushrooms when he stopped the muslim fanatics from having their way with Europe. Befuckingbuffoon....
And it was a bunch of deranged CIA employees working for Sharon that were flying those aircraft on 9/11...do you fucks simply take drugs to be that fucking stupid or were your parents dumb fucks as well?
Tell you what when the war starts between you buffoons and Israel let me know before hand so I can pop some popcorn. Naturally you fuckers want to eliminate the only fucking country in the ME that is worth a shit.
"But if we let the world shred Israel, we could all live in peace (and wealth)."
What about all the other places in the world where muslims and infidels of various sorts, clash. Would all of that stop just because Israel is gone? How does that work? Just asking.
bomb albania too.
and the rest of world could be forgiven for thinking this about the USA.
"ever since I was 12 years old, all I remember is the US taking liberties, burning foreign lands and people, acting the Great Satan, Fuck them, they need some of their own medicine"
every bit as valid as the nonsense you you wrote.
fight,
Forget fighting the American & Jew haters here............the site is loaded with Islamofascist lovers.
Israeli & American war against Iran will lead to a destruction of both Israel and the USA.
Jews have already badly miscalculated both Hitler and Stalin. They were very lucky then but, this time, their luck might run-out permanently.
American/Zionist aggression in Iraq
PS
As for utterly corrupt American politicians, they will change their "love" for Israel in a hurry to save their own ass.
Excellent comment! Damn right corrupt political whores will bail on Israel. They've already proven to be traitors to their own, one shouldn't think they have any real loyalty to terrorist Israel!
And with regard to Stalin and Hitler,I agree this time is different, mainly because they now have a stolen "homeland", and we get daily displays of their evil on video. They even have an army so are fair game! I wish Americans would quit going to the Middle East for Israel's benefit. Not one country over their can even reach us, thus the invention of "terrorism", the perfect "enemy" as it can't be clearly defined. It's all BS from those that benefit, Israel and it's loyalists.
isra,
A Stolen Homeland, it was theirs way before 48.
If you know anything about scripture,you know when and why,and how they got there to begin with.
But,to accept that,you have to be a believer....which is obvious your not.
At least in a traditonal view.
It was under the control of Persia far longer than it was an independant state.
stop them with your peace prize
It's why he's in office in the first place. Barack Hussein is not against the Muslim. Noooo.
Time to pull the troops from Afgani-sham and send them to Iran to fight for the israeli's. I imagine for every israeli engaged in that conflict he(or more appropriately put, she) will need about 1500 American troops for support and protection. We don't want any of the chosen people to get killed in action.
When this goes down the tubes (and it will!), Obamatron can NEVER say he was NOT warned!
If they could start before the 20th, my Aug 90 crude calls and I would really appreciate it.
ps: New moon on 8/8 and Ramadan starts on 8/11.
Bit of a numerological freak show with these crazies...especially never rule out a 33 (August 25) etc. etc....
Hit them the only place that hurts them: CUT ALL FUNDING TO ISRAEL IMMEDIATELY!
ok...his Chief of Staff is an Israeli citizen. Do you REALLY think what you propose has a snowflake's chance in hell of happening?
Who *controls* funding in the US? Look up and down the Fed Board list. Find me the non-semites. If you are in a power position in finance or media and you are NOT a semite, then YOU are a token!
You sir are a very funny man! That has about as much chance of happening as an transparent Federal Reserve.
NuttyYahoo best think twice. His head will spin when he sees how fast the mouth breathing, bible thumpers of fly over country can go from Red Shirt to Brown Shirt if they get ta feelin' Israel brought on the next leg down in the shitty depression.
for bible thumpers, economics takes a backseat to dispensationalist prophecy. bible thumpers are all for war involving israel. instability in the region increases the likelihood that the 'dome of the rock' in jerusalem is demolished, clearing the way for the reconstruction of solomon's temple and thus armageddon/rapture whence 100,000 lucky followers of jc get beamed up to heaven.
pardon my excitement but sectarian conflict makes me feel all warm and tingly, no matter who's playing
rapture = near instantaneous vaporization via chain reaction denoted by rapid dissasembly of a nuclear weapon's outer case a moment earlier.
testify!!!
Didn't Stan get "raptured" by JC in an alley on an episode of American Dad???
I believe it's 144,000 and I 've been praying to Jesus everyday that he come and get them!
What I always tell them is that the Rapture has actually already happened, it's just that God took people so boring and useless that no one noticed.
Might be best if you found out what the Bible thumpers thump on about. If you check Revelation chapter 21, you'll see that the New Jerusalem comes abou tafter all the trouble is over - so, no Temple, then Armageddon, its Armageddon, then Temple.
To be sure, some people do twist Biblical prophesy to make a buck and end of the world stuff is always a great seller (also check in to Global Warming for this sort of thing), but the Christian support for Israel stems from the fact that Salvation is from the Jews - they are still God's Chosen People.
I understand that meaning sometimes does not come across in what we say or write until it has been batted back and forth a few times. Thus the value of dialogue. Did you actually mean to say that salvation is from the Jews? Most Christians believe that salvation was from the Jews - in the form of Jesus. My reading of your statement is that salvation is something coming in the future, rather than something that has occurred in the past. Perhaps I'm interpreting your meaning incorrectly? (I'm ignoring here the theological position that our salvation won't be completed until the catching away and final judgement separating the sheep from the goats. That is in the future.)
Richard,
Its best not to get too wrapped up in our frame of reference as regards time - God, Jesus, heaven - all of that is outside our universe and thus outside our time frame. Its not like God is waiting until next Thursday - He already sees the whole story; best allegory I've seen on this is to picture God as the author, we're in the novel. A friend of mine, a recent convert to Catholicism, put it to me this way - when the End does come, we'll all be there at the crucifixion as well as at the resurrection and the return. I think he hit it right - or, as right as we can get it, given our position in the grand scheme of things.
As to salvation and the Jews - "Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him. God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth." - John 4:21-24"
Thanks.
worship bitches !
The webbots, if we are into prophesy, predict an 80% chance that the Promised Land will become a smooth glassy plain if the Chosen People use a bunker-busting nuclear device in a first strike on an Iranian nuclear refinement facility, with further dark mutterings about a cloud of death as a result that circles the earth 9 times.
Chaim Witz aka Gene Simmons, another racist Israel-firster. That dirtbag told his son, on tv, not to touch the engine of his car b/c "that's Goyim work".
He can think whatever he wants about non-jews, but it wasn't too smart waking more of them up!
so i hear the israelis are looking for a dinnerjacket to go with the nu clear umbrella. If its a bargain they may go for it.
What is muzzletough?
Iwreck, Iran, I broke
Actually, some Bible thumpers are waking up ever since Rahm Emanuel put a 100 foot high Menorah on the White House lawn, while Israel-firsters around the nation rip nativity scenes off town hall lawns.
The Bible thumpers around me aren't ready to start harming others, but they're listening to what a terrorist asshole Israel is (with video proof).
No wonder J Lieberman is trying his best to pull the plug on the internet!
If there were any justice or pride left in America, Rahm Emmanuel would be arrested for treason, tried, and publicly hanged on the Mall.
We actually have a foreign military agent working as Chief of Staff to our President! Think about that!
isra,
What did you think after your POTUS(YOUR) Potus............cancelled the day of prayer, and then did the Islamo Rug Boogie w/ a gaggle of Muslims,toward Mecca?............
I guess that's OK with you?.Do you see any ASS sucking going on here?
Why does a person give up a Christian name, for a Muslim name........not hard,I know you can get it.
Tell you where assholes committment lies?.
turds,
Obvious you haven't read a bible in a long time, if ever.
Everything you said, is BS.
Since when does dispensationalism have anything to do with the Bible?
Left Behind is the worst book ever written.
insofar as iran shares borders with both iraq and a-stan, aiding israel in a war against iran would consolidate the two existing wars into one war --> peace prize earned, bitches
Unless this memo makes its way onto a teleprompter, I don't think it is going to reach its intended audience.
If only there was a way to hack in and gain control of the chosen one's teleprompters, then he could be MY puppet, instead of the banksters' puppet.
BO isn't reading from the Teleprompter. He's pretending to read from the Teleprompter while the chip in his brain programs his speech center.
And here I thought he was a total Android!
Gee, when ALL major media outlets are either neocon or Tribe controlled, plus all the major banks, the Federal Reserve, you've got the 3 major newspapers under Tribe control. How fucking HARD could it be to get your message across?
The message and the money is monoethnic...yet people keep saying "it's the whites." Maybe Netanyahu is confused by the WASPy names that have been adopted by his cousins here
+100
hasn't VIPS gotten the message?
the president is golfing and isn't to be disturbed.
F*ck Israel. Waaaaay more trouble then they've ever been worth to us.
Copy that sentiment with one correction...
replace the "I -word" with Zionist Entity...
+100
^100
why do I get the feeling day after day that the world
revolves around protecting the interests of 6 million people ?
Can't say for sure where you get that feeling, but I know it's not from the media they control. Only in the last year+ did I realize there is only one real terrorist state, Israel.
Plus infinity.
War with Iran is a must be. Look at a map, it and Syria are the last holdouts in the region. They want it tied up before the US totally collapses. Though a war with Iran would radically speed up a collapse. I can only fathom how high oil will go when they block the Straight of Hormuz and then GS and Pals get in on the action.
and wait until those in Pakistan who hate USA also
join in - a ready made nuclear arsenal just waiting
for the chaos.
They are not going to tie up anything. These "wars" are a never ending goat rope. When we leave, it is going to be business as usual and perhaps a few less explosions. Anyone who wants a war with Iran or wants the endless mayhem to continue in Afghanistan or Iraq needs to volunteer immediately and get their asses up on the front line. Go and learn some lessons.
Obama already knows about the attack...the USA will participate with B-2's and Tomahawks. Then fighter/bombers. It will cover 3 days duration. Iran currently moving to shut down the Straights of Hormuz. Things are already underway on both sides.
You know, there are other countries who are interested in the well being of Iran and who would be negatively impacted by unilateral action on Iran (read China) that may see things a little differently. There are red lines to consider there -- Iraq was tolerated as it was seen as US finding a spot at the table. But, taking action on Iran may be seen as monopolizing and as taking it one too far. Hope this one does not spin out of control...
"Hope this one does not spin out of control..."
Count on it. The inevitable war w/ Iran is intended to 'spin out of control'... this is the excuse our pols need to scrub themselves of all responsibility for the shit sandwich they've served up - multi-generational debt/larceny, political re-alignment, economic depression, laughable public education, etc.
Furthermore, if Israel/US engage Iran, then we can expect real jihad to be waged here in on US soil - dirty bombs, IEDs, sabotage, etc. And we'll have nobody but ourselves to blame... we fucked them first, and there's no denying that fact.
I do hope the warmongering neandethals among us will be first in line at our military recruitment centers, but my gut tells me that they will be hiding in their basement quietly cheering the realpolitik (and nuclear winter) that they worship like religion.
I wish i did not agree with you, but i do. Hounddog has it right. Except the part about the basement. I think their basement is like well outfitted and on an island out of harms way.
I am most unhappy that criminals rule the country and my life.
IBelieve,
You know, there are other ARAB countries that are interested in Israels well being?.Not out of love, but fear.....of Iran.
Iran is a major instigator, and trouble maker in the region for a lot of Arab states....just as Saddam's Iraq was..........
Russia,China,France were all against the invasion of Iraq, because they were breaking U N sanctions, and doing business with them, end arounding the sanctions.
Russia, is not concerned with anyone but Russia...........and money.
China is only interested in their trade surplus, and the South China sea, and Taiwan..........
Neither are stupid enough to take on the US militarily,nor do they want to.
Cost them too much denero.
No need: Lots of scary people wants to fight the US. China and Russia could just begin selling their modern anti-aircraft missiles in the marketplace and "poison the well" so to speak. Then they buy some popcorn, lean back and watch the USD 400 Million++ displays of burning titanium!
On the money side, maybe China and Russia have gained what they can from the current world order. Maybe more oportunities lie in rocking the boat and grabbing whatever goes over the side?
It is given that the US will default on its debt - If I was China or Russia I would prefer that to happen quite a while *before* the US have managed to grab and consume ALL ressources. So Iran is a line.
I think that, if Iran is attacked, there will be an explosion in the Saudi Oil facilities. Kill the Oil, Kill the US economy and put the US military in the same spot as Hitlers Wehrmacht, running a mechanized army that needs a sea of fuel to carry it but without controlling any. Mind, if such a tragic event should occur, Russia and China will probably sell the US military oil in exchange for Uranium, Gold or IPR ... Get Americans killed and impoverished while making a profit at the same time. Its a Win^2 for them!
Perhaps Obomba needs a new war to lessen the political losses in the coming elections. Will it work?
probably not, he already has the electorate running scared. This will not help him solve that.
I can tell you that if Israel starts a regional war that causes more American loss of life, a fair number of US and NATO intelligence and military officers will hold Netenyahu and the Israeli govt grudgingly responsible. Christ, the Israeli govt is like a rabid dog foaming at the mouth... WTF!!
Israel is on Iran like Jews on Jesus; and we know how that turned out. Unfortunately, Israeli-Americans run the show in the US and they don't give a damn what the christian infidels say, think, bitch or cry about.
Drunk israeli settler brags how jews killed Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irIXIy6hNc8
This fellow makes Imadinnerjacket look like a gentleman and a scholar.
Sgt,
No US troops will enter Iran.................
Israel is more than capable of taking care of Israel.
lol
Tylers, you are calling for attacks every other month... Sure, someday Israel will do the move, no question. If you keep on posting about it in the same frequency, you will be right on the long run.
So here is my prediction for the actual timing of a bombardement: It wont take place when european or american commodity markets are open and trading. I was told so by an israeli guy, whom i happened to pick up drunk from the railroad just seconds before the train arrived. I shouldnt tell you, but anyway...
Even a "small" war is connected with substantial costs for the couterpartys. If you start it, you have the indeniable favour of beeing able to externalize a huge junk of the expeditures to the oooooooohhhhhh so broken and oooooooohhhh so irrational financial markets by taking the right position in advance. Only a complete fool wouldnt take this chance.
That is the reason why i am strolling around all railroad tracks available in search for drunken IDF personell i could save their lives.
fuck it - I got 5 on Israel - lemme get long some crude first, tho - I'm just glad I can telecommute and walk to the store
New Moon – August 10. These things are best done under cover of night.
Wow, anti Jewish board we are. Iran says it wants to wipe Israel off the map, and is developing nuclear weapons; how can common sense not be a preemptive strike? Too much bias on this board for clear thinking I suppose?
That is a dubious translation of an old quote from Ahmadinejad. He doesn't even control the army, much less any supposed nuclear program.
Israel and its friends have gotten a lot of mileage out of that one quote....
When the entire establishment is telling you a certain war is absolutely necessary, you should become doubly sceptical. The Iraq war was "absolutely necessary" too because of all the WMD that Saddam had, right? The powers that be are full of shit most of the time, reglardless of their ethnicity.
flag as worthy(1)
+1
(BTW, this is my first comment on ZH. Yay me!)
Hmmm, now I was a kid when the walls fell, but didn't the USSR threaten the US a bunch? I happen to remember reading about Kruschev and a little shoe pounding incident. "We will bury you" ring a bell?
Clearly in the world today if a threat is made then murder is totally justified. We clearly were wrong not to go into a full war with the USSR. "Hey you heard him threaten me, he could have meant it I had to kill him!". I wonder if that would work with a judge
Killer: "Your honor, he was eyeballing me and making threats, so I beat him to death with a tire iron. He had it coming."
Judge: "Not guilty!"
The truth is nations with nukes don't fight directly. Ironically Iran with the bomb would help stabilize the region. Then Israel and Iran could glower at each other and we can have some damn peace.
unjunk
Unjunk
Clearly in the world today if a threat is made then murder is totally justified.
Yup. The "Gangsta Culture" have reached Government! Look how The Law is enforced:
US District attorney: "A hear You go be around laundering drug money on my turf boy? That be against the law here - Unless you pay protection, you dig nigga!?"
Bank: "Sorry boss, didn't now shit. Would 10% cut be OK for now?
Effing pathetic. I happen to like Iran more every time I read the news and see how crooked and stupid "democracy" is becoming! No wonder that the rest of the world dont want any of that shit imposed on them!!
Iran talks the talk whilst Israel walks the walk... all over the Palestinians.
You are a racist asshole..
Israhell only walks the walk because it has armor from the U.S... They are like the little kid with a bee-bee gun that shoots at the other kids in the neighborhood because his big brother is the HS Football star with an IQ at room temp and easily tricked into fighting for his little brother (sister).
Iran says it wants to wipe Israel off the map, and is developing nuclear weapons
I'd think that someone employing a Hitch avatar might have figured out that in this story line, Iranian nukes are the MacGuffin.
Some of it is anti Jewish. Can't fix that. But a LOT of it is anti Israel. Like me, for example.
I'm good with the Jews, at least as good as with any religious group. Better than some, actually. But I'm so tired of the bullshit antics of the Isreali government that I could shit out a golden Star of David.
By the same token, I'm mostly okay with Christians. But if the entire U.S. government were to toddle off somewhere quiet and shoot itself in the head with automatic weapons, I'd be quite okay with that too.
We've got to start separating thoughts about the government of Israel with thoughts about Jews. The two are separate.
I keep hoping that the good people of Israel will rise up and kick the shit out of their government. Which is exactly what I keep hoping will happen here too.
And I also still want a pony for Christmas.
Dr. Sandi your intentions are good but this never works ! You cant have a decent conversation or ask an innocent question without someone shouting " yer anti-semetic " before you get past the fifth word.
Hey nice goiter ya got there
that's isn't what Achdumshitjad said.
That's a fictitious re-rendering of the quote. But, what should you expect from Tribe-controlled media outlets?
Anti Jewish? How so?
Anti American involvement in a Zionist mandated preemptive strike? .. Guilty as charged
Are you from the (anti) Defamation League?
Truly,
You haven't figured out that the Iranian Gv't is as Anti American, as anti Israel?.
Whether you can can take this in, ISLAM, is anti every swinging penis on the planet, that is not Islamic.
Look at Europe, France is screwed, U.K. is screwed,WHY?
They have allowed too many Muslims into thier countries, and they are going to lose their countries.
The Mosque in the process of being built in NYC near ground Zero, is being run by an ANTI American IMAM..............THE NAME of the prospective mosque, is a symbol of Victory over the enemies of ISLAM.
3Blks from where 3000+ Americans, and foreigners lost their lives..WE are allowing a Fking Mosque, funded by Anti American Islam,a IMAM with known ties to the radical morons in the ME, and a symbol of their victory over the Great Satan?.
FUCK THEM.
The US is the promoter, supporter, protector and instigator of Saudi wahhabism everywhere in exchange for Oil. It is just fitting that you should build a mosque in its honour on top of its victims.
PS: If somebody dynamited the thing then, IMO, it would be clear that there are still decent Americans around. But, hope is dwindling.
well...perhaps there are some here with a (not traditional ) ie. different -view of Israel and its value to the world from a cost/benefit analysis....
"Wow, anti Jewish board we are. Iran says it wants to wipe Israel off the map, and is developing nuclear weapons; how can common sense not be a preemptive strike? Too much bias on this board for clear thinking I suppose?"
Please don't confuse ant-jew with people who are anti-war, anti-right wing, anti-extremist-sons-of-b@!#$ches whoever and whatever they maybe: human, dog, or alien. Most of us are grown up (read: not emotional 12-year olds masquerading as adults), and don't get offended when people in far away lands talk smack about the US. War is a racket. Tyrants are bought and paid for (eg., Napolean, Hitler, etc).
So go to Israel, Thalamus, you traitorous puke.
Let Israel attack Iran, BUT WITHOUT US BEING INVOLVED! Iran can't hit the US anyway. If you care about Israel so much, make aliyah (getaway).
Thalamus,
Just noticing the Anti Semite legions here?.
Your logic makes too much sense, only an idiot would do a pre-emptive strike on a frigging maniac, who has publically stated he is/will destroy your nation, and all your people?.
Wonder how the Americans on this site would feel, and what they would do...faced with the same threats?.
I know, get nuked.
Common sense here, gets you junked.
Fsck 'em both, let 'em fight.
So what to happen financially? Oil rockets up. Dollar goes up for safe heaven. SP500 down. Treasury up. Hi yield bonds down. Defense stocks up. Oil companies up. Gold up.
Yes?
It seems to me that if this is really going to happen, the oil price will forecast it. Too big of a secret to keep, so someone in the market will know.
Traders are f'in morons. They react to news, they don't anticipate anything. That's because they are idiot savants whose only skill is placing orders based on the latest bit of news to cross the wire.
of course they're excellent drivers.
p.s. it is now referred to as autistic savant.
Spike up in Oil, then a crash all the way to near Zero. With side-effects.
The inevitable crimp in the oil flow will first trigger concerns about "growth", then margin calls on The Debt. The margin calls will dump everything that can be liquidated into the market but The Debt is so much larger than the value supporting it that everything will be sucked in without making any real dent in it. Seing what is coming, People will welsh on future contracts, raw materials in transit and whatever else "they may need later". Trade Dies. Then The Debt implodes.
The government steps in, converts the The Debt to "war bonds" at at rate of 100:1 (which will later deafault also) and introduces rationing which lead to even more severe shortages. Businesses are nationalised and turned towards the war effort. Social unrest breaks out in earnest and is crushed, China-style. Several countries depending on western support to feed their ever-growing population collapse bringing regional wars and streams of refugees into play. Nationalism goes off the charts to keep "them" away since people are barely feeding themselves. Lots of scary people see that western powers are otherwise occupied and step into the breach to grab land, change borders, ethnic cleansing or all of the above.
After a long while, trade begins again using local currencies or straight exchange of goods and ressources. Quite a few countries drawn up on maps by European officials no longer exist.
curious as to what the thoughts are on what a barrel of oil will cost if this happens.
my guess (i am no oil expert) is $125.
Insurance rates for tankers will shoot through the roof too. Iraqi, Kuwati and Saudi oil terminals are sitting ducks.
There are over one million Iranians living inside Iraq. You can be sure a few will make life hell for any US convoys.
oil is over 80 now. If we had an economy the 8o dollar oil would sure set us back.
mere,
You know WHY oil is $80.00?.............because our DOLLAR is shit.