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Major General: Why Are Domestic Government Agencies Purchashing Enough Lethal Ammunition to Put 5 Rounds In Every American?
Preface: There might be an innocent explanation. But given recent trends, this is worrisome.
Retired Major General Jerry Curry wrote Friday:
The Social Security Administration (SSA) confirms that it is purchasing 174 thousand rounds of hollow point bullets to be delivered to 41 locations in major cities across the U.S.
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Those against whom the hollow point bullets are to be used — those causing the civil unrest — must be American citizens; since the SSA has never been used overseas to help foreign countries maintain control of their citizens.
What would be the target of these 174, 000 rounds of hollow point bullets? It can’t simply be to control demonstrators or rioters. Hollow point bullets are so lethal that the Geneva Convention does not allow their use on the battle field in time of war. Hollow point bullets don’t just stop or hurt people, they penetrate the body, spread out, fragment and cause maximum damage to the body’s organs. Death often follows.
Potentially each hollow nose bullet represents a dead American. If so, why would the U.S. government want the SSA to kill 174,000 of our citizens, even during a time of civil unrest?
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If this were only a one time order of ammunition, it could easily be dismissed. But there is a pattern here. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) has ordered 46,000 rounds of hollow point ammunition. Notice that all of these purchases are for the lethal hollow nose bullets. These bullets are not being purchased and stored for squirrel or coyote hunting. This is serious ammunition manufactured to be used for serious purposes.
In the war in Iraq, our military forces expended approximately 70 million rounds per year. In March DHS ordered 750 million rounds of hollow point ammunition. It then turned around and ordered an additional 750 million rounds of miscellaneous bullets including some that are capable of penetrating walls. This is enough ammunition to empty five rounds into the body of every living American citizen. Is this something we and the Congress should be concerned about? What’s the plan that requires so many dead Americans, even during times of civil unrest? Has Congress and the Administration vetted the plan in public.
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All of these rounds of ammunition can only be used to kill American citizens, though there is enough ammunition being ordered to kill, in addition to every American citizen, also every Iranian, Syrian or Mexican. There is simply too much of it. And this much ammunition can’t be just for training, there aren’t that many weapons and “shooters” in the U.S. to fire it.
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We have enough military forces to maintain law and order in the U.S. even during times of civil unrest.
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This is a deadly serious business. I hope I’m wrong, but something smells rotten. And If the Congress isn’t going to do its duty and investigate this matter fully, the military will have to protect the Constitution, the nation, and our citizens.
Why are government agencies doing this?
Major General Curry asks a troubling questions:
We have local police, backed up by each state’s National Guard, backed up by the Department of Defense. So in addition to all these forces why does DHS need its own private army? Why do the SSA, NOAA and other government agencies need to create their own civilian security forces armed with hollow nose bullets?
This may sound like a conspiracy theory …
But remember that Senator Daniel Inouye said in 1987:
There exists a shadowy Government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself.
The Federal Reserve – which is not exactly federal (and see this)- also has its own police force. See this and this.
Chalmers Johnson called the CIA the President’s private army.
But that’s nothing compared to JSOC. As John Glaser wrote in February:
For the past decade, we’ve seen the rise of a secret, unaccountable U.S. military force … Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) is an unwieldy private army at the command of the President, and him only. And they conduct military and spy missions all over the world, never receiving formal congressional approval ….
“Without the knowledge of the American public,” wrote Nick Turse back in August, “a secret force within the U.S. military is undertaking operations in a majority of the world’s countries. This new Pentagon power elite is waging a global war whose size and scope has never been revealed.” According to a recent Congressional Research Service report, JSOC forces “reportedly conduct highly sensitive combat and supporting operations against terrorists on a world-wide basis.” As the New York Times this week reported:
The Special Operations Command now numbers just under 66,000 people — including both military personnel and Defense Department civilians — a doubling since 2001. Its budget has reached $10.5 billion, up from $4.2 billion in 2001 (after adjusting for inflation).Over the past decade, Special Operations Command personnel have been deployed for combat operations, exercises, training and other liaison missions in more than 70 countries. Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, Special Operations Command sustained overseas deployments of more than 12,000 troops a day, with four-fifths committed to the broader Middle East.
JSOC operates outside the confines of the traditional military and even beyond what the CIA is able to do.
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But it goes well beyond the war zones. In concert with the Executive’s new claims on extra-judicial assassinations via drone strikes, even if the target is an American citizen, JSOC goes around the world murdering suspects without the oversight of a judge or, god forbid, granting those unfortunate souls the right to defend themselves in court against secret, evidence-less government decrees about their guilt. As Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Seymour Hersh said at a speaking event in 2009:
Congress has no oversight of it. It’s an executive assassination ring essentially, and it’s been going on and on and on.***
Under President Bush’s authority, they’ve been going into countries, not talking to the ambassador or the CIA station chief, and finding people on a list and executing them and leaving. That’s been going on, in the name of all of us….
[Marc Ambinder told Wired]:
There are legal restrictions on what the CIA can do in terms of covert operations. There has to be a finding, the president has to notify at least the “Gang of Eight” [leaders of the intelligence oversight committees] in Congress. JSOC doesn’t have to do any of that. There is very little accountability for their actions. What’s weird is that many in congress who’d be very sensitive to CIA operations almost treat JSOC as an entity that doesn’t have to submit to oversight. It’s almost like this is the president’s private army, we’ll let the president do what he needs to do.
An End-Run Around the Constitution?
Remember, we’ve gone from a nation of laws to a nation of powerful men making laws in secret. A nation where Congressional leaders themselves aren’t even allow to see the laws, or to learn about covert programs. A nation where Congressmen are threatened with martial law if they don’t approve radical programs.
National security powers are being used to help big business, to the detriment of the American people.
Veterans returning from the front lines are labeled “potential terrorists”, to the horror of both the Republican and Democratic leadership.
This is not surprising, given that tyrannical regimes always crumble when the footsoldiers refuse to carry out draconian measures.
Indeed, active duty military personnel are big Ron Paul supporters. And see this. Because liking Ron Paul – as well as liking liberty or the Founding Fathers – may get one branded as a potential terrorist these days, there may be some friction between active military folks and the government as well.
We’ve been in a continuous state of National Emergency for 11 years. The Constitution has so thoroughly been shredded that it – literally – unclear whether we are still living in a constitutional form of government.
Because military folks are sworn to defend the Constitution, many still would not allow the imposition of overt, full-scale fascism without a fight. See this and this.
As such, Major General Curry’s speculation is chilling, indeed:
Is the purpose [of the lethal ammunition purchases] to kill 174,000 of the nation’s military and replace them with Department of Homeland Security (DHS) special security forces, forces loyal to the Administration, not to the Constitution?
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How soon before these bullets disappear and reappear on the black market?
Why have they bought enough to put 5 rounds in every American? Hmmm... is it because some Americans might not die with only 4 rounds in them?
It is government work: five shots, one hit.
Also...
A foot of blubber will stop most pistol calibres from reaching a vital organ.
Autopsy: Death of handcuffed man in Ark. a suicide
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20120820/DA0P6VO03.html
LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) - An autopsy report released Monday lists the death of a man shot in the head while his hands were cuffed behind him in an Arkansas patrol car as a suicide.
Were his initials "Vince Foster"?
Brutal.
That's what you call an 'Arkancide' ...which were trending down after Bubba and the Wicked Witch flew away to Foggy Bottom.
Obligatory:
Lead bitchez
"Is the purpose [of the lethal ammunition purchases] to kill 174,000 of the nation’s military and replace them with Department of Homeland Security (DHS) special security forces, forces loyal to the Administration, not to the Constitution?"
Or, we just moved from Chess to Go.
Heck George, the Memphis Police have lost up to 200K rounds through shady dealings with a local private firm that interfaces between the departments OC unit, a regional federally funded training facility and informants.
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2011/nov/08/ammunition-missing-from...
What possible reason would Americans have to show up armed at their local Social Security office? Think about it. I have, and I can think of only one reason. All of a sudden, like overnight, Americans are going to be told that their Social Security checks aren't going to be coming anymore.
Ditto welfare, SNAP, disability. Ditto ag subsidies. NOAA I can't explain. DHS - duh.
IMO the only reason for these mass ammo purchases - although there are some good rationales in the comments section - is because right after the elections Americans are going to be given some very bad news. Basically - no more money from the government. Unless of course you are TBTF, in which case you're good to go. The rest of you - suck it up or get blown away.
Good post. Interesting. As to NOAA--perhaps they think that people might blame them for HAARP or some such. Who knows? You are right--it is hard to explain.
That's an interesting theory, but why would the government deny payment of SS checks before they absolutely have to do that? There is no sign that the government can't continue to borrow indefinitely, is there? Sure, at some point the checks will have to stop (or the actual purchasing power of those checks will be nil), but I just don't see any sign of that being 3 months away - do you?
http://youtu.be/bBgQIy3clBg
I don't think that SSA itself ordered the ammo. I think it was all ordered by DHS and just billed to all different agencies so it doesn't look like just DHS ordered it all and DHS is billed for it. Spreading the cost so it doesn't look too suspicious?
It is quite worriesome though, that's a hell of a lot of ammo. And why all hollow points?
You got it!
Most of this is handgun ammunition. You need rifles and rifle ammunition to really do damage. Most hollow point handgun ammo do not even expand. The rounds are not powerful enough.
This article is going around the internet. My guess is civilians have much more hollow point ammo in their garages than these agencies ever will have.
My understanding is most of it is .40 caliber ammo which is a pretty standard law enforcement ammo. Most law enforcement agencies I know use .40 cal hollow points such as Federal or Speer. I carry .40 cal. hollowpoint in my handgun for my Glock 22 but I prefer to carry my Colt 1911 .45 ACP for real stopping power.
I wonder what this comes out to for all uniformed DHS personel that carry a firearm? That is a lot of ammo even for DHS. Are they getting ready to invade Mexico?
The MP5 submachine gun is chambered in that caliber.
Bullshit on the effectiveness of handgun HP rounds.
Handguns are meaningless against anyone with a real weapon (which is most US gun owners). Sure they can be effective at point blank range, but who the hell is stupid enough to fight with pistols? A pistol is better than nothing but completely outmatched by long guns.
Reasonably skilled guy with scoped deer rifle >>> guy with .40 cal. Pistol range is about 25 yards effectively, the old .30-06 is good to 500 without any trouble.
You are right about that. If I am going to war give me a rifle for my primary weapon and a handgun for close quarter combat. And on my wish list for my rifle please add an ACOG scope.
If it all comes to a shooting war, anyone who tries to take to the battlefield against federal forces will lose unless somehow they get control of the USAF and I doubt that that will happen.
The war will be fought with assassinations, sabotage, stealing information, and infiltration of each others organizations, the Michael Collins approach.
And for that, all you really need is a good handgun and one shot and the target is gone and the shooter disappears to never been seen in that locale ever again.
Ive also read reports of govt agency purchases of 5.56 rifle ammo (used in various M-16 variant rifles) - - But the .40 S&W was designed as a police round. Its also used by numerous federal law enforcement agencies. - - It isn't used by the military, so its likely they don't have large stocks of it. The military has lots of 5.56.
Anyone who looks upon these large purchases of this type of ammo with apathy is completely cluess IMO. I'm glad to hear the retired general made these statements of concern.
RE: Paragraph 1: You have no idea what you're talking about.
One red arrow because you failed to educate yourself before opining on an unfamiliar subject.
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=140e263e1c...
Above, 175 MILLION rounds of .223 ammo, by DHS. 450 Mil rounds, below. Maybe they want to drive up the price of lead. Make it hard for 'good ol' boys' to have re-loading supplies? Nahhh,,,
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/why-is-homeland-security-buying-450-mill...
I would worry more if they were ordering barrels of vasoline...
Believe me, THEY won't care about being GENTLE when they slip it to you and me, and ours. Just keep stocking up on silver and ammo...and of course FOOD. They you can say to hell with them, bring it!
Akin and Ryan have joined Casey and Biden in saying the Vaseline, like the condoms, are optional accessories in achieving macro and micro socio-political-sexual objectives.
"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you."
Look at it a little sideways. If your Commander in Chief maxes out the ammo manufacturing capability, it means that you guys can't buy any and the price will go sky high.
He can keep on doing that - He can print far more money than you can.
There is method in his madness.
Every bullet "printed", like fiat, can end up on the street. He can keep delivering bullets to agencies in large American cities, but he will have to defend those bullets from an angry mob.
Will the guy in the Social Security Administration die to keep those bullets out of the hands of a violent mob? I think not. Will a hungry SSA agent not sell bullets out the back door to feed his family? Sure he will.
Furthermore, the citizens who are truly awake and fearful of the state of our world today, are not going to blink at an increase in ammo price. They will sacrifice something else in the monthly budget. Besides, if the administration wanted to manipulate up the price of bullets they can manipulate the commodities used in its production, which they already do, they don't have to buy the bullets off the market. These bullet purchases are not for the purpose of price manipulation. Nor would they have to buy hollow points to manipulate the general supply of ammo.
Like Lexington and Concord in reverse.
While I really detest the arming of so many of our nation's bullshit alphabet soup agencies, this article is not really helping. Too much face-palm quotient.
"Hollow point bullets are so lethal that the Geneva Convention does not allow their use on the battle field in time of war. Hollow point bullets don’t just stop or hurt people, they penetrate the body, spread out, fragment and cause maximum damage to the body’s organs. Death often follows."
The General knows better than this.
- Expanding ammunition is banned by the Hague, not the Geneva Convention. This was originally a result of poorly designed early hollow point rifle ammunition causing severe - but not neccessarily fatal - wounds that maimed people
- Properly designed hollow point rounds don't fragment, they simply expand. Their purpose is to penetrate a specific amount (generally 12-18 inches) and then stop, as opposed to full metal jacket rounds that will often penetrate 2 or 3 times that distance.
- These rounds are for use in pistols. FMJ rounds in pistols leads to rounds overpenetrating all sorts of things and generally being more hazardous to everything and everyone you're not actually shooting at. This is why police and civilians in the US use hollow point rounds in modern pistols; to do otherwise is irresponsible.
- Our currently military rifle ammo is full metal jacket due to our following the letter of the Hague. It also happens to fragment violently and creates much more severe wounds than either FMJ or expanding bullets.
- The General's statements about ammunition usage are entire orders of magnitude off the mark. The military uses far more rounds than that in training, and they *still* don't shoot a fraction of what they should for competent training. Some servicemembers deploying to combat zones don't even shoot once a year in training. Most of the military has an organizational fear of letting soldiers fire weapons at all - commanders are afraid of accidents. Domestic agencies generally are not.
- The amount of ammunition ordered by DHS and other agencies (and keep in mind, DHS is supplying these rounds to a bunch of other agencies) is appropriate for the amount of rounds expended in training by the sorts of people they're employing. A single 3 day pistol or rifle course can easily consume 2,000 rounds of ammunition per person.
The scandal here isn't that highly trained shooters are using this much ammunition - this is what makes them highly trained. It's that these agencies employ so many of them in the first damn place.
The General's use of hyperbole and factual errors is not helping our case here.
Yes, the general uses some hyperbole & I have mixed feelings about that. - - - But youre also dealing with a completely clueless and overly tamed population who, for the most part, have absolutely no idea what a hollow point is. And many of them seem quite apathetic about anything except the results of 'American Idol' or the latest t.v. sports event. Perhaps the general wanted to make a point - - by getting these sheep to actually envision 5 HPs going into them and their loved ones.
Given the level of fraud and the numerous attacks on our personal liberty and security we constantly see nowadays, - - you have to wonder what it'll take to wake some people up.
You don't train with JHP, you train with FMJ. This is an insane ammount of ammo, any way you look at it.
Why does DHS need its own Airborn Warning and Control System? (AWACS)
http://mostwanted06.deviantart.com/art/P-3-Orion-AWACS-DHS-303408603
No, that's not a photoshop. I saw it up close and personal at this year's Joint Service Open House at Andrews where they had it on display.
Just what are they going to be using it for?
Hey guys, look on the bright side. They are hiring, and they pay on time.
DHS also ordered 180 H&K UMP short barrel machine guns chambered in .40. They will empty a 30 round magazine in 3 seconds.
Meanwhile, Business Insider reports that civilian AKs are flying off the shelves and dealers can't keep them in stock.
Go figure.
Who needs an AK? All you need to survive is a good knife and some survival skills. Anything else is just a luxury.
Got mine and 1k rounds. Hopefully wont need it, but I am more concerned about brigands, looters and gangs than the government agents who will have their hands very full.
Me too JB. I'm hoping just hearing me rack my Mossberg 500 cruiser will scare off would be rioters and looters. Most people know what that sound means plus the damage it could do is a lot worse than .40 hollow pt. If there is a full scale military attack on civilians we're finished.
Miffed :-)
How about to keep ammo supplies low so citizens can't buy any????
Definitely part of the equation, I think. Also raises prices and keeps a lot of folks from buying too much.
So true! Looked into getting .40 hollow pts fro my XD pistol and they were about $1 a round in CA! Shotgun ammo is more affordable.
Miffed:-)
Retirees can get incredibly rowdy. When they get goin' they're like ninjas or something. I've seen grandma take someone's head off with a roundhouse kick.
The feds need every advantage they can get.
Because Americans are FAT
For those 2000 bedridden beasts, you probably need more than 5.
"They hate us for our freedoms."
"I Heart Tyranny" works, for them, equally well too.
I actually think George is on to something in the last paragraph. I know many military and a few former special ops guys. What is interesting is that these guys have expressed more suspicion of 9/11, current foreign policy, and the president than anyone else to the point of being the one to bring it up themselves. Ironic is that these discussion usually happen at the gun range. In fact, until recently I believed the mainstream stuff about 9/11 until a former member of the military with an engineering background kept wondering how certain aspects of 9/11 could happen. These guys are a greater threat to the government than several hundred "Dancing with the Stars" watchers. Probably why they need hollow point as opposed to regular ammunition. How long until good men and women find unexpected material on their computers and are either arrested or shot while resisting arrest on suspicion of terrorist activity?