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Dutch Reject PVV Guilder Study
Quick follow up poll results indicate only 23% find the euro exit study the Freedom Party released on Monday reliable (from expatica.com). The poll results were released by Maurice de Hond, who is the the nation's busiest and most frequently cited purveyor of these things.
We'll assume the opinion poll was carried out under a reasonably representative sample of at least 1200 voters of the six largest political parties. Why I may seem a bit cagey in my language is that I'm not going to claim to know exactly how De Hond works, but I can report on the conclusions as reported in the media which may be of interest.
My information regarding the poll is fragmentary, picked up here and there, and I will do my best to portray it as objectively as I can. I didn't participate in it myself, so I don't know how it works or the exact questions asked. Sorry to any media outlets I've picked up anything from and forgot to mention.
Since I'm an inexperienced blogger I'm simply going to do my best to give you the numbers and I will add some musings, as usual, to any questions or comments you have. Any constructive criticism is certainly welcome. Any other criticism or a lack of interest in this blog may discourage me from continuing with my project or it might give me a chuckle. I can't really predict any of this beforehand.
So here we go (from nu.nl):
Of those who voted Groenlinks in the 2010 elections, 83 percent do not trust the results. Nor do 76 percent of PvdA and D66 voters or 54 percent of the SP. These parties are considered left of center.
The voters of the governing coalition reject the study out of hand (out of hand may be creative licence on my part) in 61 percent (VVD) and 57 percent (CDA) of cases.
PVV voters consider the study dependable in 66 percent of cases while 9 percent do not.
Referendum
If a referendum were to be held now for a return to the guilder, almost two thirds would vote no. Only PVV and SP voters are more for than against a return of the guilder.
A majority of 67 percent did indicate they found that a referendum should have been held in 1996 on the introduction of the euro. Only D66 and Groenlinks voters thought on balance it wasn't necessary.
Hypothetical results of a 1996 referendum
If a referendum had been held in 1996, a majority of voters would have voted against the introduction of the euro. Only a third would would have voted for it and the rest abstain.
A rundown of those rejecting the euro in this hypothetical thought experiment:
PVV 90 percent
SP 85 percent
VVD 52 percent
PvdA 45 percent
That leaves us with a majority of CDA and Groenlinks voters who would have encouraged entry.
One thing I would like to note before closing off, if you missed it, we had some recent research from LSR (that carried out the guilder study too) posted here on what I consider some relevant issues:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/contagion-how-rest-world-will-suffer
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Synovate says the PVV appears to have gained from its call for a return to the guilder. They went from 20 to 23 in the latest poll.
Seeing the plans of Switzerland and Germany to investigate if it's better to ship their gold back home, should raise some questions within our own parliament. I hope some party demands some sort of investigation, that would probable be the SP, planning to ship our gold back.
I'm an euroskeptical but I honestly don't know of going back to the guilder is a good option. I would only option is really when Germany goes back to the mark. But that won't happen in the short term, as bad news brings the euro down which is good short term for the export. Until someone has to pick up the tab nothing going to change I think. Timing will be very difficult and I honestly think the Germans and the Dutch are overplaying their hand.
The Netherlands can only be in a currency union with Germany. The Guilder was locked to the D-Mark anyway before the Euro. Ever since the Dutch rejected Union with England under Oliver Cromwell the Netherlands has only really had the option of depending on The Rhine and whatever industries controlled it. The Dutch voters probably feel very afraid of being alone in a world where nations get crushed in the Global Banker Maelstrom.
A Northern European Currency Union is probably the only way forward and uncouple the Southern European Euro Currency into a banded float against the Northern ECU/Crown/Mark
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/03/lynn-parramore-schools-without-to...
a- De Hond doesn’t work. He asks 1200 people and writes that down. Although this might constitute scientifically proof, the number 1200, I still wish good intellectual luck with drawing any conclusions.
b- The people clearly weren’t asked to choose between Imperial fiat money, and debt free money. (or; Euro’s vs MP’s, as an example).
c- At time of introduction of the Euro majority of the voting population was not looking at their retirement funds. Now they do. (… that "verbot" to call for a bank run didn’t come forward bc there wasn't an ongoing bank run ;) ).
Etc…
About Bolg:
In good dutch-english:
Vor al so door gaan!
3:30am, time for bed.
zzz
The PVV commisioned report mentions Switzerland on several occasions, portraying it as a shining example of a sovereign non-Euro state.
The report fails to point out the massive problem that the Swiss central bank has in keeping their currency down, and it doesn't mention the cost of the high Franc to the Swiss economy and its people.
The Swiss situation would be the same in The Netherlands were they to go back to the Guilder, with the exception being that The Netherlands are even more of an export economy, so they would be hit even harder.
The Netherlands would only be able to leave the Euro if Germany would leave, they could then team up in a new currency, or at least peg to the Deutsch Mark.
Let's not forget: the PPV is a mouthpiece for organizations like the Jewish Defense League, receiving millions just to push their agenda, not the prosperity of the Dutch people. The political system in The Netherlands works as follows: if you manage to collect enough signatures then you are able to enter the Dutch Parliament, get paid a handsome fee (yes, Dutch politicians are paid by the state) and receive free air time for party political broadcasts.
So, if you shout "IT'S THE MUSLIMS!" over and over again as the "solution" to all problems you will get a large part of Dutch voters on your hand, and money in the bank. In PPV's case throw in a couple of million for the "protection" of their leader, bleach-blonde Mr.Wilders.
Any commisioned report from an organization like this should be viewed with great distrust.
And the PVV is capitalising on a lot more than the issue you mention. Just a hunch but they have nothing to loose with the situation as it is.
So muddle through the way things are going. Focus on the 3 percent target and introduce a few tweaks here and there? And keep voting VVD, CDA, anything but PVV?
Question: Why has your avatar confiscated Belgium as a part of The Netherlands?
Did I say it was a picture of the Netherlands? It is a picture of Dutch speaking areas some time in the past, taken from Wikipedia somewhere. I've been warned by Bank guy Brussels that Wikipedia is criminal and CIA funded, and much more than that. It may not be on the page I link to but I think there must be a link from there. So if you want to risk visiting the site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language
And from here, I'm going to leave the discussion for a bit. Not sure how great temptation is going to be. This is obviously a complex question, the poll on the study or the study itself may be a bit of a strawman. Politics works that way. Diversions galore.
My point was to get a bit of debate going, look for alternatives to the status quo, do our own analysis of the Dutch situation. But maybe I should just slow down and stick to posting a bit of news once in a while until interest subsidies. I have no idea and I think out loud too much sometimes.
...The Dutch situation:
The Netherlands is a monarchy inwich the head of state (Bea) was atempted to be killed by a colonized slave that was fed-up(Curacao).
The second in line, Alex, ran for his live to South America trading/managing water.
And to top it off; her banker son is kept alive (why keep a dead person "alive"?) in... the "City of London".
If you ask me, but don't take my word for it, The Netherlands are done.
I would keep going the way you are (if you can take criticism ... whether well-founded or just trolls). Your thoughts are interesting and provoke others to correct you or provide counter-arguments ... from which all readers can learn or adjust their thinking.
Just be careful when quoting "conclusions as reported in the media". Most of us are a little suspicious of their motives and generally consider their "conclusions" to be "ruling class propaganda".
excellent remark, excellent post and excellent comments by the tower.
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i-dog, I also like to read your comments, except when you start to rant about your crazy American Catholics and their American Jesuit connections.
My point is that you don't separate the American- part from the Catholic and the Jesuit. I don't disagree with you, I just want to give you a hint, next time you travel in the world not to expect Catholics to talk and behave as they do in your country.
And this includes me, a Catholic, an alumn of a Jesuit school and someone that was/is involved in several Catholic organizations with activities all over the world. Which included several initiatives that would get American Catholics fuming.
Erm, I think you mean in the charity sphere? ;)
I never comment on American (or any other) Catholics "in general" .... please provide a quote, and don't provide it out of context.
I am always referring to luciferians -- which means Jesuits in positions of power who have demonstrable connections to other prima facie luciferians (ie. Sabbateans, Georgetown alumni, Bonesmen, Bilderbergers, CNP, etc) and, in particular, specific members of the Supreme Court, Congressional Committees, Administration Departments and prominent politicians (though I don't name them, I know exactly who I mean and try to reflect that in my phrasing ... you may wish to bear that in mind next time you read one of my "crazy rants").
Being Jesuit trained does not brand you in my eyes as a luciferian. Jesuit schoolboys, 3rd Degree (Master) Masons and non-observant Jews generally know less about luciferianism than do protestant clergymen. Such people are merely members of recruiting grounds for observation, testing and selection. I expect that less than one in a hundred go on to pass through the initiations into the higher orders. But, by definition, Knights of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, Fourth Vow Jesuits and 32-33° Masons are witting luciferians with a sworn allegiance to the luciferian ideology. Any person in the public trust who has taken such a vow is an out-and-out traitor, IMO. You can't serve two masters.
FWIW, I've lived and worked all over the planet, speak a significant number of languages, have extensive connections with "the elite" and have had spouses and partners from a variety of cultures and religious backgrounds. I refuse to be branded as either a bigot or a xenophobe.
I realise that you are a Catholic and have taken exception to my writings, but in the past you have chosen ridicule as your vehicle to argue with me, so I have chosen to ignore you and let my own credibility (or lack thereof) stand on its merits. This time you have attempted to make a point and I'm replying.
thanks, i-dog, and sorry for the late reply
let's put it this way: I thank you for the context you have given me, now I understand your statements better. Perhaps I was goading you in the past, but it was because I wished for some clarity which you have given me. Again, thanks.
to make it short: I object to calling luciferians a bunch of what are IMHO very mundane power-brokers-and-grabbers, but this is a very minor point which I think leads nowhere. I only know a bit of part of those groups and only the parts outside the US.
I think that you, me, a couple of past Popes, the Swiss in the 19th Century and Bismark all broadly agree on one thing: Jesuits, by their vow of obedience and a strong tendency of using very utilitarian methods, should be kept outside of politics. On the method we might differ, though.
No, I was not implying that you are making "crazy rants", I was mentioning your rants about crazy people. To those crazies I include some parts of my family and somehow most people who force religion into politics.
Agreed ... as individuals. They are a collection of snivelling pedophiles. However, their strength lies in the collective and its institutions. Thousands of devoted monks toilling away at developing policies, strategies, tactics and white papers ... tens of thousands of political animals (in both politics and business) clawing their way up the hierarchy, and bending over backwards (literally and figuratively) to both please their superiors and collaborate with their peers in pursuance of an ideology of intellectual elitism. Their arrogance in the face of their individual shortcomings is breathtaking!
When their figureheads include such astounding intellectuals as Dubya, van Rompuy and Ratzinger -- with the likes of Kissinger, Rockefeller and Sutherland active behind the scenes -- those snivelling pedophiles can achieve quite a lot that I personally find both distasteful and inconvenient.
One day I'll tell you what I really think of that ship and all who sail in her!
Peace.
It was asked in Parliament last year (Kamervragen), and shrugged off by DNB (Central Bank), but.... "Where is our Gold?"
Does J.C. de Jager still maintain the greek will pay up 100%? I stopped watching it, too painful.
Yeah, very ugly. The idea that we're somehow exempt from any shennanigans befalling the greek, or italians, because we're different is laughable, it's the same euro, that's going to be devalued. I get blank stares whenever I'm trying to explain what the ECB is and what it's doing. Just.not.interested.
I think it was rejected, because IME my fellow countrymen are not so well informed as the german population; do not see the situation as particularly threatening, and partially because they don't trust the PVV, as they are indeed a bunch of creepy would be, wannabe fascists. That's just my hunch, but I see it reflected in the nonsense written in papers and told on most newsbroadcasts. Perhaps they hope the huge accumulation of household debt will also be halved? LOL
All your hypotheken are belong to us.
What I'd like to add or perhaps encourage you to reply to is that the gold question last year was initiated by Irrgang who has IMHO (I'm the same as you, the debate here isn't worth following) taken his foot off the gas on all these questions. I'm not certain if he was threatened or if I missed a whole lot of debate.
OK. I'll continue: unless we own up to the mortgage issue and do something about it (take some pain) we're just going to keep pretending it isn't there and keep throwing the change at the periphery. Because confidence, especially in demeanour, matters right.
Am I arguing that the Dutch leaving the euro wouldn't be a major event? Maybe. But I think a certain neighbour may beat us to that kind of announcement. A somewhat more restrained financial system might stay that eventuality, but (and this is only my perhaps hysterical take on things) it seems to be turning into a bloody all and all out race.
Do you have a link to the study itself?
I wish I did. But I do have an analysis thrown at it in Dutch that I haven't linked to yet. It will be here momentarily (in Dutch). If clarification is necessary I will try to oblige.
http://sargasso.nl/archief/2012/03/05/miracle-on-lombard-st-de-gulden-sprookjes-van-de-pvv/
There are several ways to translate these things on the internet these days I've noticed, not that you needed that advice.
I ask that any questions in this regard from anyone be presented in easily digestible format.
LOL @ Henk & Ingrid (political joke)
I just read it, it seems to me that the report is kind of sloppy, that there are inconsistencies, and that this article is correct in pointing that out (a botched opportunity?). But, where both report and article commenting on it, have a blind spot, is that the dutch economy with it's strong (read: large) financial sector is going to be "het haasje" (a sitting duck), is that the financial market is broken, and the mechanism to create liquidity where there is no trust, will not work, because it will cause a europe-wide devaluation. And that has absolutely nothing to do with them being in the euro, and we in the guilder. It's about that both report and critique ignore that everyone's broke, and an unwind of a ball of unpayable debt will be epic. (compare it with the first Deathstar exploding).
I.o.w. typically dutch, think back and treasure fond (but false) memories about the seventies (report) or the last decade (critique) and ignore the present. It works, as long as you don't look out the window at the clusterfuck unfolding. (a botched opportunity!)
It's great that we're such a model NWO farm. I'm going to look for an exit. The Antarctic is lovely this time of year. Nice and quiet.
Got gold?
Thanks for your take, I concur.
It is too bad that the Dutch people simply wouldn't say "tot ziens" to the Euro.
I remember when the Euro replaced the Guilder, and overnight, you had less money, but everything cost more.
When everything finally comes unglued, it is going to be Zeer lelijk (Very Ugly).
"I remember when the Euro replaced the Guilder, and overnight, you had less money, but everything cost more."
That is because Dutch business flourished when the Euro was introduced. They racked up prices, but they didn't share the profits with the Dutch people.
At the same time the wages in countries like Spain skyrocketed, so you could find Dutch tomatoes and cucumbers in every Spanish supermarket, competing with the home-grown product.
The Euro has been VERY good for Dutch business. It's a shame that the Dutch people fail to see who really debased their wealth...
The Euro is a currency like all other currencies. The effect that a currency has in the scheme of things is determined by politicians, banks, and businesses.
To think that simply replacing one currency for the next will bring change is naive, to say the least.
I will tell you the effect of the return of the Guilder: lower cost of Dutch products abroad. The Dutch tomatoes and cucumbers will stay in the Spanish supermarkets, no matter what. It will be the Dutch people who pay the price...
Yes, that's my thinking still too. Nothing to convince me otherwise yet. What LTRO 1 + 2 seem to be doing for the masses so far is simply reassure them there are always fixes to anything when push comes to shove. There will be no major events happening, and if they do we'd better just hold on to the euro. Unless that event involves the euro of course, but then its too late. All the bickering and politics is mostly just that.
/end rant
I would think that from a sovereign point of view, they should control their own financial destiny. However, the Dutch being prime traders, the Euro has been providing them with an additional edge.
Considering that things are unraveling so fast right now, it looks like it's time to switch to the Guilder and fast. The Danes are in a better position right now.