This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan
Atomic Weapons Were Not Needed to End the War or Save Lives
Like all Americans, I was taught that the U.S. dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in order to end WWII and save both American and Japanese lives.
But most of the top American military officials at the time said otherwise.
The U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey group, assigned by President Truman to study the air attacks on Japan, produced a report in July of 1946 that concluded (52-56):
Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.
General (and later president) Dwight Eisenhower – then Supreme Commander of all Allied Forces, and the officer who created most of America’s WWII military plans for Europe and Japan – said:
The Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.
Newsweek, 11/11/63, Ike on Ike
Eisenhower also noted (pg. 380):
In [July] 1945… Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. …the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.
During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of ‘face’. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude….
Admiral William Leahy – the highest ranking member of the U.S. military from 1942 until retiring in 1949, who was the first de facto Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and who was at the center of all major American military decisions in World War II – wrote (pg. 441):
It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.
The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.
General Douglas MacArthur agreed (pg. 65, 70-71):
MacArthur’s views about the decision to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were starkly different from what the general public supposed …. When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor.
Moreover (pg. 512):
The Potsdam declaration in July, demand[ed] that Japan surrender unconditionally or face ‘prompt and utter destruction.’ MacArthur was appalled. He knew that the Japanese would never renounce their emperor, and that without him an orderly transition to peace would be impossible anyhow, because his people would never submit to Allied occupation unless he ordered it. Ironically, when the surrender did come, it was conditional, and the condition was a continuation of the imperial reign. Had the General’s advice been followed, the resort to atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki might have been unnecessary.
Similarly, Assistant Secretary of War John McLoy noted (pg. 500):
I have always felt that if, in our ultimatum to the Japanese government issued from Potsdam [in July 1945], we had referred to the retention of the emperor as a constitutional monarch and had made some reference to the reasonable accessibility of raw materials to the future Japanese government, it would have been accepted. Indeed, I believe that even in the form it was delivered, there was some disposition on the part of the Japanese to give it favorable consideration. When the war was over I arrived at this conclusion after talking with a number of Japanese officials who had been closely associated with the decision of the then Japanese government, to reject the ultimatum, as it was presented. I believe we missed the opportunity of effecting a Japanese surrender, completely satisfactory to us, without the necessity of dropping the bombs.
Under Secretary of the Navy Ralph Bird said:
I think that the Japanese were ready for peace, and they already had approached the Russians and, I think, the Swiss. And that suggestion of [giving] a warning [of the atomic bomb] was a face-saving proposition for them, and one that they could have readily accepted.
***
In my opinion, the Japanese war was really won before we ever used the atom bomb. Thus, it wouldn’t have been necessary for us to disclose our nuclear position and stimulate the Russians to develop the same thing much more rapidly than they would have if we had not dropped the bomb.
War Was Really Won Before We Used A-Bomb, U.S. News and World Report, 8/15/60, pg. 73-75.
He also noted (pg. 144-145, 324):
It definitely seemed to me that the Japanese were becoming weaker and weaker. They were surrounded by the Navy. They couldn’t get any imports and they couldn’t export anything. Naturally, as time went on and the war developed in our favor it was quite logical to hope and expect that with the proper kind of a warning the Japanese would then be in a position to make peace, which would have made it unnecessary for us to drop the bomb and have had to bring Russia in.
General Curtis LeMay, the tough cigar-smoking Army Air Force “hawk,” stated publicly shortly before the nuclear bombs were dropped on Japan:
The war would have been over in two weeks. . . . The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.
The Vice Chairman of the U.S. Bombing Survey Paul Nitze wrote (pg. 36-37, 44-45):
[I] concluded that even without the atomic bomb, Japan was likely to surrender in a matter of months. My own view was that Japan would capitulate by November 1945.
***
Even without the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it seemed highly unlikely, given what we found to have been the mood of the Japanese government, that a U.S. invasion of the islands [scheduled for November 1, 1945] would have been necessary.
Deputy Director of the Office of Naval Intelligence Ellis Zacharias wrote:
Just when the Japanese were ready to capitulate, we went ahead and introduced to the world the most devastating weapon it had ever seen and, in effect, gave the go-ahead to Russia to swarm over Eastern Asia.
Washington decided that Japan had been given its chance and now it was time to use the A-bomb.
I submit that it was the wrong decision. It was wrong on strategic grounds. And it was wrong on humanitarian grounds.
Ellis Zacharias, How We Bungled the Japanese Surrender, Look, 6/6/50, pg. 19-21.
Brigadier General Carter Clarke – the military intelligence officer in charge of preparing summaries of intercepted Japanese cables for President Truman and his advisors – said (pg. 359):
When we didn’t need to do it, and we knew we didn’t need to do it, and they knew that we knew we didn’t need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs.
Many other high-level military officers concurred. For example:
The commander in chief of the U.S. Fleet and Chief of Naval Operations, Ernest J. King, stated that the naval blockade and prior bombing of Japan in March of 1945, had rendered the Japanese helpless and that the use of the atomic bomb was both unnecessary and immoral. Also, the opinion of Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz was reported to have said in a press conference on September 22, 1945, that “The Admiral took the opportunity of adding his voice to those insisting that Japan had been defeated before the atomic bombing and Russia’s entry into the war.” In a subsequent speech at the Washington Monument on October 5, 1945, Admiral Nimitz stated “The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into the war.” It was learned also that on or about July 20, 1945, General Eisenhower had urged Truman, in a personal visit, not to use the atomic bomb. Eisenhower’s assessment was “It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing . . . to use the atomic bomb, to kill and terrorize civilians, without even attempting [negotiations], was a double crime.” Eisenhower also stated that it wasn’t necessary for Truman to “succumb” to [the tiny handful of people putting pressure on the president to drop atom bombs on Japan.]
British officers were of the same mind. For example, General Sir Hastings Ismay, Chief of Staff to the British Minister of Defence, said to Prime Minister Churchill that “when Russia came into the war against Japan, the Japanese would probably wish to get out on almost any terms short of the dethronement of the Emperor.”
On hearing that the atomic test was successful, Ismay’s private reaction was one of “revulsion.”
Why Were Bombs Dropped on Populated Cities Without Military Value?
Even military officers who favored use of nuclear weapons mainly favored using them on unpopulated areas or Japanese military targets ... not cities
For example, Special Assistant to the Secretary of the Navy Lewis Strauss proposed to Secretary of the Navy James Forrestal that a non-lethal demonstration of atomic weapons would be enough to convince the Japanese to surrender … and the Navy Secretary agreed (pg. 145, 325):
I proposed to Secretary Forrestal that the weapon should be demonstrated before it was used. Primarily it was because it was clear to a number of people, myself among them, that the war was very nearly over. The Japanese were nearly ready to capitulate… My proposal to the Secretary was that the weapon should be demonstrated over some area accessible to Japanese observers and where its effects would be dramatic. I remember suggesting that a satisfactory place for such a demonstration would be a large forest of cryptomeria trees not far from Tokyo. The cryptomeria tree is the Japanese version of our redwood… I anticipated that a bomb detonated at a suitable height above such a forest… would lay the trees out in windrows from the center of the explosion in all directions as though they were matchsticks, and, of course, set them afire in the center. It seemed to me that a demonstration of this sort would prove to the Japanese that we could destroy any of their cities at will… Secretary Forrestal agreed wholeheartedly with the recommendation…
It seemed to me that such a weapon was not necessary to bring the war to a successful conclusion, that once used it would find its way into the armaments of the world…
General George Marshall agreed:
Contemporary documents show that Marshall felt “these weapons might first be used against straight military objectives such as a large naval installation and then if no complete result was derived from the effect of that, he thought we ought to designate a number of large manufacturing areas from which the people would be warned to leave–telling the Japanese that we intend to destroy such centers….”
As the document concerning Marshall’s views suggests, the question of whether the use of the atomic bomb was justified turns … on whether the bombs had to be used against a largely civilian target rather than a strictly military target—which, in fact, was the explicit choice since although there were Japanese troops in the cities, neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki was deemed militarily vital by U.S. planners. (This is one of the reasons neither had been heavily bombed up to this point in the war.) Moreover, targeting [at Hiroshima and Nagasaki] was aimed explicitly on non-military facilities surrounded by workers’ homes.
Historians Agree that the Bomb Wasn’t Needed
Historians agree that nuclear weapons did not need to be used to stop the war or save lives.
As historian Doug Long notes:
U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission historian J. Samuel Walker has studied the history of research on the decision to use nuclear weapons on Japan. In his conclusion he writes, “The consensus among scholars is that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of Japan and to end the war within a relatively short time. It is clear that alternatives to the bomb existed and that Truman and his advisors knew it.” (J. Samuel Walker, The Decision to Use the Bomb: A Historiographical Update, Diplomatic History, Winter 1990, pg. 110).
Politicians Agreed
Many high-level politicians agreed. For example, Herbert Hoover said (pg. 142):
The Japanese were prepared to negotiate all the way from February 1945…up to and before the time the atomic bombs were dropped; …if such leads had been followed up, there would have been no occasion to drop the [atomic] bombs.
Under Secretary of State Joseph Grew noted (pg. 29-32):
In the light of available evidence I myself and others felt that if such a categorical statement about the [retention of the] dynasty had been issued in May, 1945, the surrender-minded elements in the [Japanese] Government might well have been afforded by such a statement a valid reason and the necessary strength to come to an early clearcut decision.
If surrender could have been brought about in May, 1945, or even in June or July, before the entrance of Soviet Russia into the [Pacific] war and the use of the atomic bomb, the world would have been the gainer.
Why Then Were Atom Bombs Dropped on Japan?
If dropping nuclear bombs was unnecessary to end the war or to save lives, why was the decision to drop them made? Especially over the objections of so many top military and political figures?
One theory is that scientists like to play with their toys:
On September 9, 1945, Admiral William F. Halsey, commander of the Third Fleet, was publicly quoted extensively as stating that the atomic bomb was used because the scientists had a “toy and they wanted to try it out . . . .” He further stated, “The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment . . . . It was a mistake to ever drop it.”
However, most of the Manhattan Project scientists who developed the atom bomb were opposed to using it on Japan.
Albert Einstein – an important catalyst for the development of the atom bomb (but not directly connected with the Manhattan Project) - said differently:
“A great majority of scientists were opposed to the sudden employment of the atom bomb.” In Einstein’s judgment, the dropping of the bomb was a political – diplomatic decision rather than a military or scientific decision.
Indeed, some of the Manhattan Project scientists wrote directly to the secretary of defense in 1945 to try to dissuade him from dropping the bomb:
We believe that these considerations make the use of nuclear bombs for an early, unannounced attack against Japan inadvisable. If the United States would be the first to release this new means of indiscriminate destruction upon mankind, she would sacrifice public support throughout the world, precipitate the race of armaments, and prejudice the possibility of reaching an international agreement on the future control of such weapons.
Political and Social Problems, Manhattan Engineer District Records, Harrison-Bundy files, folder # 76, National Archives (also contained in: Martin Sherwin, A World Destroyed, 1987 edition, pg. 323-333).
The scientists questioned the ability of destroying Japanese cities with atomic bombs to bring surrender when destroying Japanese cities with conventional bombs had not done so, and – like some of the military officers quoted above – recommended a demonstration of the atomic bomb for Japan in an unpopulated area.
The Real Explanation?
History.com notes:
In the years since the two atomic bombs were dropped on Japan, a number of historians have suggested that the weapons had a two-pronged objective …. It has been suggested that the second objective was to demonstrate the new weapon of mass destruction to the Soviet Union. By August 1945, relations between the Soviet Union and the United States had deteriorated badly. The Potsdam Conference between U.S. President Harry S. Truman, Russian leader Joseph Stalin, and Winston Churchill (before being replaced by Clement Attlee) ended just four days before the bombing of Hiroshima. The meeting was marked by recriminations and suspicion between the Americans and Soviets. Russian armies were occupying most of Eastern Europe. Truman and many of his advisers hoped that the U.S. atomic monopoly might offer diplomatic leverage with the Soviets. In this fashion, the dropping of the atomic bomb on Japan can be seen as the first shot of the Cold War.
New Scientist reported in 2005:
The US decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 was meant to kick-start the Cold War rather than end the Second World War, according to two nuclear historians who say they have new evidence backing the controversial theory.
Causing a fission reaction in several kilograms of uranium and plutonium and killing over 200,000 people 60 years ago was done more to impress the Soviet Union than to cow Japan, they say. And the US President who took the decision, Harry Truman, was culpable, they add.
“He knew he was beginning the process of annihilation of the species,” says Peter Kuznick, director of the Nuclear Studies Institute at American University in Washington DC, US. “It was not just a war crime; it was a crime against humanity.”
***
[The conventional explanation of using the bombs to end the war and save lives] is disputed by Kuznick and Mark Selden, a historian from Cornell University in Ithaca, New York, US.
***
New studies of the US, Japanese and Soviet diplomatic archives suggest that Truman’s main motive was to limit Soviet expansion in Asia, Kuznick claims. Japan surrendered because the Soviet Union began an invasion a few days after the Hiroshima bombing, not because of the atomic bombs themselves, he says.
According to an account by Walter Brown, assistant to then-US secretary of state James Byrnes, Truman agreed at a meeting three days before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima that Japan was “looking for peace”. Truman was told by his army generals, Douglas Macarthur and Dwight Eisenhower, and his naval chief of staff, William Leahy, that there was no military need to use the bomb.
“Impressing Russia was more important than ending the war in Japan,” says Selden.
John Pilger points out:
The US secretary of war, Henry Stimson, told President Truman he was “fearful” that the US air force would have Japan so “bombed out” that the new weapon would not be able “to show its strength”. He later admitted that “no effort was made, and none was seriously considered, to achieve surrender merely in order not to have to use the bomb”. His foreign policy colleagues were eager “to browbeat the Russians with the bomb held rather ostentatiously on our hip”. General Leslie Groves, director of the Manhattan Project that made the bomb, testified: “There was never any illusion on my part that Russia was our enemy, and that the project was conducted on that basis.” The day after Hiroshima was obliterated, President Truman voiced his satisfaction with the “overwhelming success” of “the experiment”.
We’ll give the last word to University of Maryland professor of political economy – and former Legislative Director in the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate, and Special Assistant in the Department of State – Gar Alperovitz:
Though most Americans are unaware of the fact, increasing numbers of historians now recognize the United States did not need to use the atomic bomb to end the war against Japan in 1945. Moreover, this essential judgment was expressed by the vast majority of top American military leaders in all three services in the years after the war ended: Army, Navy and Army Air Force. Nor was this the judgment of “liberals,” as is sometimes thought today. In fact, leading conservatives were far more outspoken in challenging the decision as unjustified and immoral than American liberals in the years following World War II.
***
Instead [of allowing other options to end the war, such as letting the Soviets attack Japan with ground forces], the United States rushed to use two atomic bombs at almost exactly the time that an August 8 Soviet attack had originally been scheduled: Hiroshima on August 6 and Nagasaki on August 9. The timing itself has obviously raised questions among many historians. The available evidence, though not conclusive, strongly suggests that the atomic bombs may well have been used in part because American leaders “preferred”—as Pulitzer Prize–winning historian Martin Sherwin has put it—to end the war with the bombs rather than the Soviet attack. Impressing the Soviets during the early diplomatic sparring that ultimately became the Cold War also appears likely to have been a significant factor.
***
The most illuminating perspective, however, comes from top World War II American military leaders. The conventional wisdom that the atomic bomb saved a million lives is so widespread that … most Americans haven’t paused to ponder something rather striking to anyone seriously concerned with the issue: Not only did most top U.S. military leaders think the bombings were unnecessary and unjustified, many were morally offended by what they regarded as the unnecessary destruction of Japanese cities and what were essentially noncombat populations. Moreover, they spoke about it quite openly and publicly.
***
Shortly before his death General George C. Marshall quietly defended the decision, but for the most part he is on record as repeatedly saying that it was not a military decision, but rather a political one.
»
- advertisements -
Indeed, everyone is a savage except the venerable Americans.
Comments on the Moro Massacre by Mark Twain (March 12, 1906)
Please ask the survivors of Nanking province what they think of the destruction of Japanese cities. The civilians of Nanking. And hundreds of thousands of others subjected to Japanese barbarity. The Bataan death march. Torture and atrocities committed throughout the Pacific theater. Perhaps the Japanese would surrender.Perhaps collectively, Japan had atomic hell coming. Perhaps not. Democrat Saint Harry Truman really did give 'em hell.
Yikes! You mean that Divine Justice nukes you for Bataan? Nanjing? And other assorted atrocities?
Gee, What are we gonna get for 4 million SE Asians killed in the 1960s and 70s + over three centuries of "Indian" Wars that reduced the native population of North America from 50 million to today's 3 or 4 million? I mean like Germany was doing Jews for about 15 years but three centuries?
Man, I reckon God has really got it in for us.
So Japanese soldier's barbarity against Chinese civilians justifies US barbarity against Japanese civilians. Who the fuck do you think you are? THe Right Hand of God?
I don't think he said that. Excellent response to arguments not being made!
I see you claim you are a historian. Are you such an idealogue that you can not connect just two dots?
1) Atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki: August 9th 11:01am.
2) Emperor Hirohito announces desire to accept Potsdam Declaration to The Supreme Council for the Direction of the War: August 10th 2:00am.
Coincidence?
Unsupported assertions, obfuscations and ad hominum attacks begin in 3...2...1...0
Specifically, you view Hiroshima and Nagaski as barbarity because of the nature of the weapon used. The fact that conventional weapons, used to fire bomb civilian centers get short shrift from you certainly supports your hypocrisy. And yes, barbarity is best dealt with by employing a much higher level of barbarity. And yes, l am the right hand of GOD.
No Vlad,he is clueless.WE did not try Dr Ichi,the japanese Dr mengele.He was buried with honor in 1968(?).
Excellent article.
We need more of these.
i agree.
it's a great discussion with some interesting comments.
..some people get pretty indignant and sensitive about other peoples opinions though..
i'm enjoying the history lesson (from both sides).
thanks zero-hedge !
Amerika the most ethical nation. Yeap, now Amerika talks about Human Rights. LOL.
Morality is a double-edged sword.
It is a benefit to the culture in which it arises and a bane to other cultures.
A very difficult thing for almost everyone to overcome.
"Amerika the most ethical nation"
And in what saintly nation do you take comfort ?
In other words, which cage in the Zoo do you prefer?
The only morally superior position is that which seeks to stop pointing a gun at each other. How close is Amerika to that goal? We can do better.
This is not the first time I've heard this. It certainly does have the ring of truth to it, and Truman does strike me as the kind of politician who is capable of making such a decision. This line also caught my eye: "Nor was this the judgment of “liberals,” as is sometimes thought today. In fact, leading conservatives were far more outspoken in challenging the decision as unjustified and immoral than American liberals in the years following World War II." That drew my attention because all the biggest genocides in history were committed by leftists - Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, and a dozen or so other leftist "revolutionaries" may account for up to 200 million deaths in the 20th century. Killing in cold blood is definitely part of the leftist DNA.
It's not the leftist's fault, all those people just refused to accept their re-education.
More revisionist history. The bomb was used for many reasons. Gaining leverage with the Soviets was one. Forcing a prompt Japanese surrender before the Soviets could grab too much Jap territory is another. Preventing a massive expenditure of the lives of US Marines, who would have to invade Japan and take it before the Soviets did was another. (My dad was on one of those ships that would have had to invade mainland Japan, and man was he happy when they dropped the bomb.) The Soviets grabbed much of Europe and we couldn't have them grab Japan too. It was successful. Japan fell largely into our hands. The little bit of territory that was taken by the Soviets is still held by Russia.
If we were so concerened about Soviet imperialism, why were we fighting their enemies?
Uh, Pearl Harbor? Germany declaring war on the US?
Because it was a colossal fuckup from beginning to end. Just like now.
Im also happy that your Dad lived and 200000 people died. Who would educate zerohedge if you were never born?!
Your "argument" is based on the assumption his dad was going to be the only casualty. That assumption is yours alone.
"Never go full retard."
Though you are correct, I would not call this "revisionist" for that term carries with it connotations that are negative (much like the word appeasement). I think this article is intended for the uninitiated (those who only learned 'history' is school) to be aware that there were many reasons for the dropping of the nuclear weapon. The official history makes the leaders who decided to use it look like saints, when indeed, as you have pointed out, they had multiple motives (not all of which were... saintly). This article highlights those less than saintly motives.
As for your revisionist history comment. It is a good thing to revise history. As you know history is used as a weapon and the discussion of what actually happened is healthy for society. We should be as cautious of the new story as we should be of the old one.
History is written by the victors.
Only after a long period of time is the less than palatable truth allowed to surface.
Prejudies and hatred run very deep.My father who served in that theatre, had an undying
hatred of all things Japanese.Now that generation has passed maybe a more balanced
perspective can be brought to light on what really happened.
The established history will change greatly when the '100 year rule' allows,
the pre and war communications between FDR and my avatar , publication of a lot of hitherto
top secrets.
I'm in slight disagreement. History is (eventually) written by it's bystanders. Most of the loot, was carried by innocent, people fleeing their homesteads.
Those artifacts depict history, in it's true "aroma"
"The official history makes the leaders who decided to use it look like saints,"
I am unaware of any serious history that portrays Truman as a saint for dropping the bomb on Japan. It was a damn nasty, difficult decision and Truman, rightly, preferred saving American lives.
The U.S. could easily have carpet bombed the Emperor's castle, exposing the Emperor as a man not a god, but Truman (and FDR) chose not to.
Really? Have you read any history text books? They bring up a moral question, but it is always spun as having ended the war, when the evidence does not entirely support this assertion.
What makes American lives worth more than those of Japanese Civilians? Russia was poised to strike, why not let them pound the ground? If we were so worried about Russian expansion, why fight Russia's enemies?
If you were an American president would you seriously decide that Japanese lives were more important than the lives of Americans?
I can't believe that has to be pointed out to you.
"If we were so worried about Russian expansion, why fight Russia's enemies?"
Because they were losing territory to the Soviets (not Russians).
Indeed
He's a "saint" for "saving" so many American lives.
How you must hate him for saving American lives.
not at all, just pointing out perspective. Do not presume that because I question the "official" history, I wish for Americans, or anyone else, to die.
In preparation for the invasion of Japan, the US military ordered over 400,000 Purple Heart medals. We're still using up that inventory today.
pity they don't awards those Hearts to families of those "accidentally" droned in Afghanistan, or other non-combatants killed by military - they'd certainly keep the manufacturers busy.
Thats pretty much my view of it as well. And my dad was on one of those ships too. Of some interest to the readers of this thread is something I stumbled across recently.
A guy by the name of Harry Dexter White, the manipulation of our government by a Soviet spy and Operation Snow.
http://www.huntingtonnews.net/45689
Lots of other juicy stuff connected to Harry Dexter White...the genocidal plans to turn Germany into a potato field, the IMF etc...
http://www.conservapedia.com/Harry_Dexter_White
Things are not always as they seem looking in from the outside ;-)
Wait!
Are you saying that we actually had Soviet spys moving America's foreign policy?
The revisionists have determined thats not true. Uncle Joe was a really nice guy.
McCarthy was a nutcase... :)
The Game of Thrones is indeed a multi-layered chess board as opposed to a game of checkers as some would like to think.
It's no small wonder that those who are the most adept at the game are the least morally fit to win it.
"Are you saying that we actually had Soviet spys moving America's foreign policy?"
I think the evidence is clear.
"The revisionists have determined thats not true. Uncle Joe was a really nice guy."
Yes.
One of the ironies of drinking from the Fountain of Moral Relativism, is those who think they could never be thrown against the wall and shot for espousing their views are usually the first ones shot after their army is defeated...lol.
"those who think they could never be thrown against the wall"
Useful Idiots, indeed.
Theres a kiloton of them in academic circles ;-)
why build a perfectly good bomb and not use it right?
the japanese had it comming. they where beasts to the chinese and other asian countries.
There were a few women in Nanking, the few that the japs forgot to murder after they raped them, who must have cried out of sheer joy.
I thought they did it so that a few years later Stanley Kubrick could make a really good movie.
Just kidding. Thanks for the info GW.
If we throw in the non-nuclear fire bombing of Dresden, what can we conclude then?
Were cities destroyed simply to curry favor among voters who simply wanted revenge after a long and brutal war?
The bombing of Dresden by English and American bombers was done at the behest of Stalin. Bombing Dresden would not have helped the effort on the Western front, but was immensly helpful for the Soviets on the Eastern front. The Soviets had little to no strategic bombing capabilty so Stalin wanted the Western allies to do it for him.
Despite common belief, Dresden was a major transportation nexus. Four major rail lines converged there (to Leipzig, Chemnitz, Prague and Breslau). In addition, Dresden is also on the Elbe river which was a major route for war materiel shipped between Germany and occupied Czechoslovakia.
After the war, the Soviets created this fiction that Dresden had no military significance so they could use the bombing as a propaganda tool. After the war, the Soviets could use this to accuse England and the US of war crimes as a way to ingratiate themselves with their newly conquered subjects. Leaving out, of course, that the Soviets had asked for England and the US to do it in the first place.
A lot of people in the West seemed also to buy into it also.
You are exactly right. Stalin's pleadings for a Second Front started with increased aerial bombing. The British, under Harris, openly bombed cities, though not exclusively. The Americans were told to unload bombs wherever they could, if they could not get to the targets. Since targets were heavily defended I will leave it up to the readers imagination how often targets were too hard to get to or could not be found in cloud cover.
Tell me, is being an ignoramus comfortable? The Dresden firebombing occured in Feb of 45, only two months before the collpase of Berlin. Societ troops had already driven through Poland The "second front" had been open for more than a year and Dresden's only usefulness as a railhead was funneling refugees and POWs as Kurt Vonnegut would attest to. Take your bloodthirsy bags and go somewhere else. I'm sure there are 7th graders in need of propaganda somewhere.
I guess you're a 7th grader who's already gotten your propaganda. By your own admission, it seems you learned history from reading "Slaughterhouse Five".
In fact, the German army was still effective on defense in February 1945. They were being pushed back but making the Soviets take heavy casualties for their effort. The Soviets didn't cross the Oder until April 16th where the Germans were able to hold back the Soviets for three days at the Seelow Heights. Breslau (modern day Wroclaw) didn't surrender until May 6th.
You may be interested in what the Dresden Historians Commission found after a five year investigation. Keep in mind, these are German historians:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8574157.stm
The Oder is 40 miles from Berlin. Zhukov halted his advance on it's banks at the end of January to allow for proper forces to sweep up the Eastern European capitals. Bombing Dresden was a barbaric and inhuman act. If the Allies were so intent on helping the Soviets,why didn't they bomb Berlin, or the German troops reinforcing the Oder and Neisse River lines in front of Zhukov? It was childish vengeance.
I learned my history properly at university. Attempting to put me down because I'm broadly read does little to bolster your argument.
Some fucking historian you are. Berlin was continously bombed. But the Allies sure as hell didn't want to have stray bombs dropping on the Russians near the end of the war. You are book-learnt, and have never dirtied your hands in history.
And it is naive of you to consider that all your opponents to your slavish pursuit of your self-conjured truth have not passed through some Ivory Tower.
You have sharpened your mind by narrowing it. The most you can say, is you have read it somewhere, as can we all.
It sounds like you learned your "history" from Marxist professors. What university did you study at?
MIT then UC Davis. You?
And I didn't care what bent my professors had. They all had something to teach me, a perspective I may not have considered. But the best learning is always done by one's self with a stack of books. Voltaire was so right when he said "History is a pack of lies agreed upon." I seek the truth rather than recieve it. You may want to try it some day.
The bombing of Dresden in February, 1945 was personally ordered by Prime Minister Winston Churchill. The British campaign included burning out as many German cities as possible, Dresden and Leipzig were at the bottom of target lists that were very short as the war was coming to a close.
Multiple sources including Liddel-Hart, Wilmot, Trevor-Roper. Taylor is a revisionist and not trustworthy. Both Churchill and Arthur 'Bomber' Harris were equivocal about Dresden after the war.
Aiding the Soviets was not a strategy but killing as many Germans as possible was. Allied unit advances in the western parts of Germany was hindered by the damage to infrastructure caused by Anglo-American bombing in 1944, and early 1945.
Vonnegut was a POW in Dresden and was pressed into effort to remove rubble from the streets and dispose of the thousands of corpses. IMO the carpet-bombing of Dresden was unnecessary beyond efforts to slow rail traffic, best done by ground attack aircraft w/ rockets. Rail centers were outside of Dresden proper.
BTW, if the Germans had been able to hold off Allied attacks until August, the first atomic bomb would have fallen on Berlin.