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The Relentless Eurocratic Power Grab

testosteronepit's picture




 

Wolf Richter   www.testosteronepit.com   www.amazon.com/author/wolfrichter

“The euro has profound economic advantages and is the most powerful symbol of European integration,” said not some wild-eyed dude with a joint between his lips, slouching in a café in Amsterdam, but the “Final Report“ issued by the Future of Europe Group, composed of the foreign ministers of Germany, France, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Poland, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, Portugal, and Luxembourg. It remains uncertain what they were smoking.

But they did fret about the future of the euro and the EU, their chef d’œuvre. To keep it glued and duct-taped together, they came up with a laundry list of recommendations concerning its governance. It included the vampire item that simply refuses to die, namely shifting sovereignty over national budgets to the European government.

To their credit—or was it just window dressing, given the uproar on the internet?—they also called for more “democratic legitimacy and accountability,” of which only trace elements are discernible in the EU government. One of the key items: “a directly elected Commission President.”

Then came the eurocrat response.

“If this is not going hand in hand with large powers for the Commission, then forget it,” said European Council President Herman Van Rompuy at a conference centered on that Final Report. It would give that top job “a huge legitimacy,” he said, but it would “organize the disappointment in advance.” Only by handing “large powers” to the Commission could a directly elected Commission President become functional.

Another step in the ongoing and ever so methodical power grab.

Just then, a 52-page draft report by the unelected European Commission President José Manuel Barroso bubbled to the surface—a continuation of his bureaucratic drive to create the United States of Europe come hell or high water.

To overcome “the crisis of confidence,” he called for “fast and deep” integration and envisioned a powerful European government. It would, for example, have the power to coordinate how Member States tax their citizens—with the unspoken goal to alleviate tax competition between countries, a recurrent complaint by high-tax countries against their lower-tax brethren. Even in the USA, the federal government doesn’t attempt to tell the states how to tax their residents. It would cause a revolt.

Barroso, building on his idea of a United States of Europe, also wants to give the Commission, his Commission, the power to veto the budgets of Member States. Imagine the White House vetoing California’s budget—OK, that budget should be vetoed because it's a sham, but it’s our sham, and we will deal with it or sink with it. White House interference would be a reason for secession.

He wants to endow that souped-up government with the ability to levy its own taxes, rather than be dependent on handouts that are determined during bitter budget negotiations by the 27 Member States. It would be a coup. It would give the European government the power to impose taxes on already overtaxed people—with little or no democratic limits.

And all that without a constitution. Because the people had voted it down by referendum [read.... Sacrificing The Will Of The People On The Altar of The Euro].

Meanwhile, Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte was giving interviews left and right, to reject exactly what the eurocrats were trying to push through: a federal Europe. He believed in a Europe of national states that worked together closely.

Instead of all that federal razzmatazz, he demanded that Eurozone countries “stick to the commitments that they made when they introduced the currency.” Hence, deficits not to exceed 3% of GDP. And austerity. That would be “essential for the survival” of the euro, he said. And only that would make the euro “credible.” The goal should be to strengthen the euro “and attack the dollar as world currency.”

He had something for everybody. Including Greece: treaties should be tweaked, he said, to allow a country that doesn’t follow the rules to leave the Eurozone without also having to leave the EU, which is currently not possible. And haircuts for official sector creditors, such as the ECB, that are holding most of the Greek debt? Not a good idea, he said. Not only for legal reasons, but also out of principle. “That would send the wrong signal to other countries that have debts ... like America.”

“I cannot be disillusioned because I no longer have any illusions about Europe,” muttered Euro Group President Jean-Claude Juncker a while ago. He wasn’t the only one. “There are better alternatives to the bailout policies of Chancellor Merkel,” declared the man who’d run against her in 2013; alternatives that “protect taxpayers and don’t only benefit the banks.” Read... “The Euro Will Blow Up Europe Instead Of Bringing It Together”.

And here’s a hilarious video—even if you’ve already seen it—that, in 2:30 minutes, explains better than anything else the entire Eurozone debt crisis. By Australian comedians Clarke and Dawe

 

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Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:10 | 3027837 Stuck on Zero
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Why is it that when you bring in an absolutely incompetent employee to review his/her dismal performance the person blames the poor job performance on not having enough power to do the job.  All you need to do is give them more power and they will perform much better.

 

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:09 | 3027833 Sextus Empiricus
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"The Relentless Eurocratic Power Grab"

I expected this to be a complete history of Europe... I'm a bit disappointed! 

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:29 | 3027868 Ghordius
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I'm equally disappointed... Some attempt to humour: Let's say we pit the US Trasury agaist the EU in mortal combat. 22'000 deadly secret agents agaist 35'000 unarmed bureaucrats. Who wins? It's irrelevant, it's all about Gollum van rumpoy.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 11:22 | 3027983 Sextus Empiricus
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If this is Mortal Kombat...

US Treasury is Sub Zero with the near 0% interest rates, capable of freezing nearly anything.

The EU is like Kano with the finishing move of ripping your heart out, just like they've done to the European people.

But it all leads to the monetary system and policy guiding all of them, which is Goro, the multiple armed beast that does whatever it wants and beats people into a pulp.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 06:04 | 3027677 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Very disingenuos PROPAGANDA crafted to measure for American tastes of fear and rejection, as usual by Wolfie Richter the "pretend German".

Shallow, disinformative and misleading, particularly on the hot-button themes of Constitution, Elections, Taxes and Currency.

And as usual it hides the truth: that in europe everything in politics goes back to the appointed cabinet ministers and to our elected parliaments.

(It's really easy: If you don't intimately know and understand well the words Cabinet, Minister and Parliamentary System you won't understand europe, ever. It would be like trying to understand the US without knowing anything about the word President/Governor or it's meaning)

We are going slowly in the direction of a decentralized confederation of sovereign nations.

Wolfie neglects to mention that the EU has no own taxes, police, military and that it depends on the member nation's whims for *everything*, including it's budget or any enforcement of it's laws.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 09:27 | 3027797 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Nope.

it does have it's own Militairy. And the ESM is mandatory.
Because it's extracting money through the countries' governments, and not directly, that is proof "it all goes back to appointed cabinet ministers and to our elected parliaments"?
Who issues the law that trumps ALL OTHER inside Europe? Not the European Parliament. Not the souverign parliaments.

And that's where it goes off the rails.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:06 | 3027829 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"The law"? Aren't you talking about power, instead of law? Can't follow you

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 11:56 | 3028040 Reptil
Reptil's picture

The European parliament has no rights to issue Laws. It only has a partial say about legislation of these laws.

The Commission drafts and implements EU legislation.

http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/decision-making/index_en.htm

That's the European Commission's job.

IMHO that's not really democratic.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 12:18 | 3028081 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

directly elected national parliaments (above) national governments appointed by them who meet in council (above) appoint commission

just keep this as picture in mind, it flows from the superior to the inferior

commission confirmed by directly elected eu parliament then follows council directives, including drafts for eu legislation

council approves or rejects drafts (and here it can be challenged in the national parliaments who can recall their governments)

then the approved draft can be presented to the directly elected eu parliament for approval or rejection

-------------------

some Americans would die for something that preserves the rights of the national parliaments so much

it's called a confederative principle, having the center subordinate to the periphery, even if it's a common parliament

it's like sharing a young and obedient daughter

 

what you seem to want is more a federative principle, with the center having the same or more rights than the periphery, ergo having a stronger eu parliament not subordinate to anyone

like sharing an older, stern mother or like of course the federal government of the USA

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:05 | 3027827 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

The ESM is mandatory? Any parliament voted AGAINST it? Beef up your claims

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 11:41 | 3028010 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Well... take the Netherlands.

The government was dissolved, the PVV party stopped it's support. What happened then is that the DEMISSIONAIRY parliament made the descision to go ahead with the ESM, without informing the public of the massive consequences, just before the summer recess. Comparable to the "lame duck" period after elections in the USA.

Our "Eerste Kamer" - a kind of Senate, that's supposed to put any new law to the test, ratified it in the silent, sunny days of Juli http://www.eerstekamer.nl/wetsvoorstel/33221_goedkeuring_verdrag_tot

When asked, many members of our parliament said they didn't really read the ESM or understand it's consequences. I don't deny our democratic system is more and more disfunctional, but that is also because these politicians (Rutte) are looking more and more for a european piece of the pie and sacrifice the interests of the dutch people. I.o.w. the "political elite" has not only captured the EU, also souverign nations.

Of course there were reservations, about the broad and undefined nature of the ESM, but since it's been signed, that's "mustard after the meal". http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/3324/Financiele-crisis/article/detail/14637...

I.o.w. they siltently pushed it through, then LIED about it's consequences before the elections in October, and now it's a done deal? These politicians were "wowed" by the same dreams of grandeur, and ignored the accounting office's warning it won't work.
They ALL think that a political descision can magically fix a broken financial system. They're politicians, so they think politics reign supreme. (just like a scientist would say the same about science, a mathematician about mathematics etc.)
And there you have the problem: The politicians are digging a bigger hole, because they want future jobs in Brussels... And the ESM was presented (by Goldman Sachsmanites) as the only solution in a row of "extend and pretend"

Ask a dutch person in the street about what the ESM is. NO ONE TOLD THEM.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 12:05 | 3028064 Ghordius
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so the dimissionary lower chamber voted yes and the upper chamber too? and no party is making noices abou that, to exploit it politically - the only venue because as such it's constitutional? and the newly elected lower chamber is not making any motions to repeal it?

look, I probably hate the ESM as much as most and you, but for an outsider to the Netherlands (my Dutch is horrible) should not sound as if the ESM is the Sovereign Will of the Kingdom of the Netherlands?

because for the moment it is. in the same way that forces you to drive on the right side of the road or pay your taxes. it's the law of the land

so this is a political problem inherent to the Netherlands (a problem for you and a very few others) that has nothing to do with the question of how to manage the EU, particularly not by empowering this second-tier intra-government layer

the dutch person on the street expecting that "someone tells them what the ESM is" is not being informed in any detail by any major or minor party and any other Dutch organization

so all in all IMHO you are stating that there is a disconnect between the Dutch elite that tries or thinks to understand and wants to talk about it - and that includes you - and the Dutch elite that that tries or thinks it understands and keeps numb

and all the trusting, clueless others are so not being informed because the second group is a near majority and whistling "it's all fine, really"

well, welcome to the psychological cage of huge potential problems in all politics. it's always been so throughout history, it's very human

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 12:37 | 3028102 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Now we're getting somewhere.

First off; no I'm not part of the "elite". I'm an outsider, by choice. Made my way in a completely different field of expertise, not politics, or even finance. Still I'm an investor, and citizen, and I like to be informed.

Does being informed put oneself into the ranks of a minority in the modern Netherlands? Certainly. Does it equate to "elite"? No, certainly not. In order to "make it" in politics here you'd have to focus on local issues, and make your way up through the ranks. So that means local politicians, with small issues on their mind, not intellectuals decide on big issues.
Personally I'd like some more philosophers, artists, people with a diverging, often interesting opinion decide on these questions of human society organisation. Because for the carreer politicians, a desired job in the EU is nothing more than a step up from their city council, some corporate jobs, then into the province and national parliament.
Of course there are healthy exceptions, but they lacked corporate funding like the VVD (party of Rutte) did have in the last election. (this is a backdoor around the law that corporations cannot fund political parties)

http://www.nrc.nl/verkiezingen/2012/08/24/riskante-financiering-campagne...

On the topic of the ordening of society; I'm interested in this because I think freedom (to express oneself, to inform oneself, to do business, to make choices about health and life in general) is the key ingrediënt of making it possible for human beings to rise up above an existence of worker drone, with limited cognitive development. Personally, from experience I think "the masses" can be very dumb, easily controlled, but the individual is a lot smarter than they themselves are led to believe.
I also think that the rise of corporations, not limited by boundaries of souverign states is a very dangerous development, since it doesn't have the key ingrediënt for bettering the human condition as it's prime directive. Simply put, there must be regulation, so there can be freedom.

I've been reading up on John Gray recently, and the ideas about democracy and freedom sometimes diverging:

We need freedom because our goals and values are highly diverse and often quite different from those of the people around us.Having a voice in collective decisions - the basis of democracy - is a fine thing, but it won't protect your freedom if the majority is hostile to the way you choose to live.

I think in the EU we're about to have the worst of scenarios: A plutocracy that has the face of a democracy but the brutal manners of fascism.

A refined version of what Sheldon Wolin called "inverted totalitarian state". Anyway, I hope and will fight for a free europe, and think an informed public is detrimental to the success of this union: There are HUGE challenges coming our way, not in the least the pending economic collapse. As said, yes I expect the banks will roll out a world currency, after creating more chaos.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:22 | 3027826 Ghordius
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Who has it's own military? PROVE IT
You can't hide a military force that big to be effective

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 11:48 | 3028028 Reptil
Reptil's picture

No one said it was big. But it's there, and it's been granted consideral powers (to kill citizens in case of riots, or insurrection).

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/40203479?uid=3738736&uid=2&uid=4&s...

http://www.questia.com/library/1P3-384775591/developing-a-european-inter...

http://mondediplo.com/2006/07/07euintervention

Observation: it seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong please) you don't really know the EU you're so fond of, that well...

READ THIS: http://www.currentconcerns.ch/index.php?id=866

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 12:37 | 3028101 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

No, it's not big, it does not exist. When troops are being deployed in an UN mission in Africa they still are national troops.

Recallable national troops. National troops still under order to obey their national authorities.

your links are about plans. well, there are also plans for an european moon colony, but nothing serious

----

the last link has a huge mass of misinformation and propaganda, a seriously unholy tangle

what is exactly your beef there? the death penalty? that's propaganda, pure and simple

a national enforcement could still not institute a death penalty where it's against national law

this would only be legal if we would have something like an EuroGuantanamo powered by EuroEnforcement agencies on EuroTerritories, which we haven't in all three cases and nobody wants to have

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 12:54 | 3028116 Reptil
Reptil's picture

European Intervention force FACT

Right to kill citizens (without trail?) under european law. This applies to the EU and it's direct forces. FACT

 

3. The provisions of Article 2 of the Charter correspond to those of the above Articles of the
ECHR and its Protocol. They have the same meaning and the same scope, in accordance
with Article 52(3) of the Charter. Therefore, the "negative" definitions appearing in the
ECHR must be regarded as also forming part of the Charter:

(a) Article 2(2) of the ECHR:

"Deprivation of life shall not be regarded as inflicted in contravention of this article
when it results from the use of force which is no more than absolutely necessary:

(a) in defence of any person from unlawful violence;
(b) in order to effect a lawful arrest or to prevent the escape of a person lawfully
detained;
(c) in action lawfully taken for the purpose of quelling a riot or insurrection."

(b) Article 2 of Protocol No 6 to the ECHR:

"A State may make provision in its law for the death penalty in respect of acts
committed in time of war or of imminent threat of war; such penalty shall be applied
only in the instances laid down in the law and in accordance with its provisions…"

http://www.echr.coe.int/ECHR/EN/Header/Basic+Texts/Complementary+texts/E...

No, that's not on the official website, of the Treaty of Lisbon. They hid it in a sub-treaty, which has (alongside other sub-treaties) to be combined and extrapolated with the "main" treaty.
Seems to me that the bureaucracy that you've touted as viable has gotten the better of you. ;-P

Kidding aside, it's NOT a laughing matter IMO.
I heartedly agree with Prof. Schachtschneider. For those that understand german, this is an imporant, compact and powerful message:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCXB5aiqrCw

 

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 08:53 | 3027769 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

From the teaser

“The euro has profound economic advantages and is the most powerful symbol of European integration,” said 11 EU foreign ministers. What were they smoking?

you could think that this is a laughing matter, and yet it is an interesting phrase

- people that dispute that the euro has profound economic advantages are usually in the camps outside the eurozone or on the far left inside the eurozone

- there aren't many symbols of european integration. telling, eh?

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 08:42 | 3027755 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

the rollcall of the strangest thoughts expressed here in the threads

---------------

"The eu will raise a police force and begin a top down civil war against secessionist states" by bankruptcylawyer here 3026732

ehmm... how? the "secessionist states" can leave whenever they want and they all have armies, police forces and tax systems, the three key components of power that the EU hasn't.

why do you make such a comment? usually your other comments are not moronic, but this one is so inane that I'm left utterly speechless. repeat after me: the EU has no police and can't raise a police force. it has no resources to do this, including money

---------------

oh, this one is good: "Secession results in civil war which results in a centralized fascist/socialist EU State. A New Roman Empire, which is what the Eurocrats have wanted all along anyway. They have always wanted a centralized empire that could tower above the USA on the world stage. They will get their wish." from andrewp111 here 3027222

this from the guy that thinks we europeans want to enslave the English or something. I'd say I sense some traces of "Imperial Dick Syndrome" here.

Question: is then the USA (presumably with the UK) a centralized empire that "we" want to tower above?

------------

"My best guess is that the "EU Standing Army" will begin as a police force, and will be sent to occupy States that default on debt, have internal unrest,  or try to secede from the (a) Union. Note that it may not be an entire EU State that secedes first - it could be a Spanish region, and EU Police could be sent in to buck up the Spanish State." again from andrewp111 here 3027227

no further comment

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and bank guy in Brussels writes about an expense of perhaps not more than 100k for iPhones for some bureaucrats

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Sun, 12/02/2012 - 08:20 | 3027741 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

oh, I like this one: "Another step in the ongoing and ever so methodical power grab."

Wolfie, if you think that electing a bloody EU Prez directly is a methodical power grab, than you are stating that we europeans are freer than Americans, aren't you? Because then we would have what you have since George Washington.

besides cheap and shallow comparisons, it's really about power

your point is that europe should be as disunited as possible

sounds too simple, I know, but that's really all it is, it's an old dredge from the British Empire before it morphed into the Pax Americana

Keep the Continentals disunited, their opposition to whatever is decided in the imperial centers of power fragmented

Keep them from confederating

Their disunion is the empire's strenght - independently from what power nexi currently steer the empire's course (at the moment there is a banking parasite nexus in charge, but the old interests like weapons and drugs are still there, like big oil)

Derail their efforts by pushing the near incompatible UK with their non-metric systems, their different legal tradition and basis, their different customs and their different electoral system and political culture into the fray

Further derail their efforts by pushing for the fast integration of the easterners like Greece, the Iron Courtain Belt and Turkey

Make a huge opposition to anything that might tarnish the glory of the imperial reserve currency, be it the British Pound or the Dollar, be it gold-backed or pure fiat

Just keep em' apart, dammit! Ah, and don't be too obvious, use people that at least have German sounding names, we don't want to make it too obviously AngloAmerican

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 07:51 | 3027735 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Also interesting: "Then came the eurocrat response. “If this is not going hand in hand with large powers for the Commission, then forget it,” said European Council President Herman Van Rompuy at a conference centered on that Final Report. It would give that top job “a huge legitimacy,” he said, but it would “organize the disappointment in advance.” Only by handing “large powers” to the Commission could a directly elected Commission President become functional."

There you have it: Gollum himself saying that it does not make sense.

If you elect a "big man executive" you are putting your popular trust into one man who then delegates this legitimacy down to his trustees. And legitimacy without power makes no sense (actually it's unstable).

Nevertheless, this is the system the US has, where one elected man as president has more political weight than one chamber of elected representatives alone on federal level and even more at state level as governor.

Is there any deeper point in Wolfie's article except shallow propaganda?

What we have here in europe is the utter centrality of the elected parliament being the only repositor of popular legitimacy and the subordination of the executive governments to this "fount of legitimacy".

Nevertheless, in the EU we do have an elected parliament, but it's a subordinate parliament. subordinate to the sovereign national parliaments.

by the very fact that the national parliaments express their intent by forming coalitions of majority (which can change because it involves multiple parties) that than temporarily and recallably appoint national cabinets (what our governments are) that then meet in the Council or in it's subordinate advising teams like the eurogroup.

and the Council is nothing more or less where the will of the national parliaments meets, where the flow of the greater legitimacy can then be tested against the flow of the lesser legitimacy of the EU parliament

personally, I'd scrap the MEPs and would have the parliaments send a selected group each there, but the idea of the directly elected european parliament is to have a different legitimacy as an additional check and balance - and this includes parties like Nigel Farage UKIP that can't achieve seats in their own parliaments

-----

yeah, yeah, boring, and for some it's anyway clear, it's all statist and soviet and whatever and "nobody asked me!"

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 07:20 | 3027720 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"...but the “Final Report“ issued by the Future of Europe Group..." and "...they also called for more “democratic legitimacy and accountability,” of which only trace elements are discernible in the EU government. One of the key items: “a directly elected Commission President.

WOLF RICHTER, you are a disingenuos propagandist

let's say what this "Final Report" made by the Future of Europe Group, as you yourself say is composed of the foreign ministers of Germany, France, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Poland, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, Portugal, and Luxembourg, which are btw the 6 founding nations and the rest of the "Hard Core Continentals":


 - ensure full democratic legitimacy and accountability. If additional action is taken at European level and this concerns EU competences, the European Parliament has to be involved either through co-decision or consultation. Most* members were of the view that, if a decision applies only to the Euro area plus other “pre-in” member states who wish to participate already at this stage, ways should be explored to involve the MEPs from these countries – while fully respecting the integrity of the European Union and the European Parliament as a whole. If national competences are concerned, in particular the budget, national parliaments have to agree*. Cooperation between the European and national Parliaments should be further strengthened by creating a permanent joint committee.

 

- The European Parliament should boost its democratic visibility by the nomination of a European top candidate by each political group for the next EP elections.

At the end of a long process, a more streamlined and efficient system for the separation of powers in Europe which enjoys full democratic legitimacy should be envisaged. For some* members of the Group, this could* include a directly elected Commission President who personally appoints the members of his “European Government”, a European Parliament with the powers to initiate legislation and a second chamber for the member states.

So to summarize: 11 national ministers meet and make a joint statement in which they make proposals on increasing the transparency and visibility of how their appointed and recallable governments that depend from majorities in their all-powerful elected multiparty Parliaments intend to manage in future their shared affairs called ECB and EU. and for SOME of them this COULD perhaps mean a structure were we would elect a bloody president

and there the rubber hits the road: the Prez proposal is made by a minority of a minority (and it's actually only from three little countries commonly named BeNeLux). and it flies against all traditions we have. the other 24 parliaments and their governments will fly tooth and nail against it. parts of it would mean no Council anymore, and this would be straight against everything we are trying to have here that is not understood outside europe.

and you know it

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 09:19 | 3027785 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Note that he's not talking about more democracy, but about more democratic visibillity.

And it seems, so are you.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:12 | 3027842 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Reptil, between you and me: we both know you don't care for Democracy.
It's ok for me, you don't need to pretend.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 11:17 | 3027973 Reptil
Reptil's picture

What I care for is a european government that assures checks and balances, so the people of europe can, through their representation in that government, guard themselves from outside control.
This requires an informed populace, and guess what; the european people are more and more informing themselves about the old power structures that misuse the european concept as a powergrab.

Because the politicians regard the EU as a machine, not as a functioning organism, and have disregarded bottom-up critique. They've focussed on the nationalistic resentment against "their europe", while it's OUR europe. Any europe that's not under their control (like the popular uprising, which is CONNECTED #14n) scares the living shit out of them, and they try to squash it. They also do not understand the concept of decentralised coherent coöperation, because of common interest. Instead they try to "capture" the european unionification through top-down control. While making massive mistakes that leave our (collective) backs exposed.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 11:42 | 3028013 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I agree on some parts of your critique. and I note that you avoided my albeit ad hominem challenge about democracy

--------

you know that you sound more federalist pro-european than me, do you?

you state that you care for "an european government that assures check and balances"

well, I don't care for one, at all.

and that's the reason why I favour the current setup: it's the national governments originating from their parliaments meeting in Council and appointing a commission of second-tier subordinates, one per country

--------

yes, we have institutions and we have the parasites of the institutions. classical examples:

welfare and welfare queens - defense spending and arms barons (including the Bilderberger) - banking/monetary institutions and MegaBanks

the thing is not to throw the baby with the dirty bathtub water

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 13:13 | 3028139 Reptil
Reptil's picture

I answered your challenge in another post.

I also said that I think a government that regulates a market, a society in a correct way assures freedom: That's the purpose of laws, to assure freedom for each individual. Because IMO it brings out the best in the "human condition". There are many that think that human beings function best in a strictly hierarchical structure, I disagree, it stiffles development, because there's no challenge outside the artificial boundaries of the hierarchy. It's not the natural condition, and the fact that coercion is needed in this, to keep it afloat, is evidence of this. Human beings are kept from growing spiritually into responsible, inquisitive beings, and fear and resulting anger has been used to prevent it. With many (technological) problems now solved, and even bigger (ethical) questions that result from those steps forward, dumbing down the population, and repression of alternative ideas is rather stupid, and will put our collective survival at stake. What I read more and more in the sea of information, is a fatallistic attitude towards a "culling", I see that as a fallacy, a suïcidal idea injected into the public domain, as an obvious "conclusion" to an equally unsustainable period of consumerism.
It's "funny" that the people that perpetuate this myth of "healthy cleansing of the planet" are the same that have been instigators and instruments of the previous and present rape and destruction of the biotope.

thanks for the discussion sofar. I have to do something about my (neglected) social life now ;-)

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:17 | 3027839 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

According to many it's important. Also called transparency. Also called glasnost (for those who remember). Also called fight against societal corruption. Also called quality civilization.

But Wolfie is only after writing FinBearPorn starring Fantasy Princess Euro in the role of The SM Queen of the evil "Eurocrats".

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 11:03 | 3027899 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Look, I'm PRO europe. But there need to be some changes. What your "apparachik heroes" try to accomplish by creating more bureacracy (as a cushioning layer of inpenetrable bullshit to keep the "ignorant masses" from finding out who's really calling the shots), instead MUST be solved by adressing fundamentals.
It's actually pretty SAD what's going on, bureaucrats ignoring healthy feedback of the european people, regarding it as "anti-european SENTIMENTS".
I.o.w. they can't or they won't see that they're making mistakes in fundamental issues, in their blind drive to form a "union".

1. The bureaucracy in Brussels is out of control.
http://ec.europa.eu/budget/library/biblio/publications/2011/mff2011/MFF_...
http://www.europa-nu.nl/id/vgvhl34mprlc/nieuws/voorzitter_eu_rekenkamer_...

2. The euro has now become, from a replacement of stable national currencies (Guilder, DM, ..), into a vehicle to fill the (ever growing) black hole in finances.
This is again because of mismanagement of money, which is not adressed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo1ygFynK30

Example; take the ESM. Our national accounting office warned it was not going to be a success because of lack of control over the money. Nevertheless the beaurocrats pushed it through.

http://www.rekenkamer.nl/Nieuws/Nieuwsberichten/2011/10/Controle_op_700_...

What is becoming increasingly clear is that something is very wrong in european finance management.
What I mean is that it's a thousand small, and bigger hemorrhages (death by a thousand cuts), and that this is now used to TRASH the functioning economies.

Any critique to this flaw has been dealt with by the apparatchik heroes as an attack on their right to make descisions. I'm sorry I've lost my "faith" in this way of doing politics.

The only quick fix I can see, is to do one huge writeoff, fold the euro, and start anew, build a whole new banking system. IMO it should be non debt based (like the greenback was), and fractional banking should be put to the grave. Of course that's a MASSIVE undertaking, it requires gutsy politicians, and a lot of bulletproof vests. They should've done this in 2008. Is it too late? No, but it will require a revolution.
Why would I even suggest such a radical and dangerous idea? The goal is stabillity and a fair system so europeans citizens and corporations can thrive, right? Well, the alternative is even worse. Debt slavery. Call Blankfein if you don't understand this concept. He'll be happy to explain it to you. Or ask any ordinairy greek, portugese or spanish person in the street.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vBcGaDs6hk

My point; a different euro CAN WORK. But it requires a radical departure from the course that the Central Banks and European Commission are going.

Look at what happened in the second half of the nineteenth century; in europe the countries issued 20 francs pieces. They were interchangable. This existed because of a need to exchange value across europe. The europe of neverending conflict is not a complete picture. There have been periods of functioning trade and stabillity. Before the bankers & elite fucked it up by trying to grab power. Like they are doing now.
Instead of "guaranteeing peace and stabillity" the euro has now turned around to do exactly the opposite: anyone that denies this has their head in the sand.

3. European Constitution. The USA was never a democracy. It's a federalist republic. Actually... it's a corporation, but let's not go there for the sake of argument. The european peoples need a Constitution. A real one this time, not the piece of shit that was presented in 2005 and relabeled as "Treaty of Lisbon". It needs real CHECKS and BALANCES, to ensure it's autocratic government structure isn't captured by a small group of men, beholden to powerful corporations and corporative conglomerates. We're well under way of going down that road. European institutions, supposed to safeguard us from vested corporative interests have already been captured. We need to change this, so Europe can work for it's people, not for globalist corporate control.

To prove my point:
http://bankwatch.org/news-media/for-journalists/press-releases/monsanto-... (Monsanto being subsidised 40 million in 2013! Because their malfunctioning products are not in demand)

http://www.world-psi.org/en/canada-eu-trade-talks-water-privatisation-an... (international treaties as backdoor for private interest - ignoring european people's interest)

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/10/ceta-replicates-acta (ACTA = CETA ...)

http://sustainablepulse.com/2012/11/10/study-shows-germany-misled-eu-gly... (german gov. lies about biotech)
http://corporateeurope.org/sites/default/files/attachments/EFSA%20and%20... (the european watchdog on biotech is CORRUPT)

http://www.nu.nl/buitenland/2971626/eerste-vlucht-nieuw-europees-gevecht... (spain is funding an expensive new militairy technology? REALLY?)
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-09/baltic-ministers-express-suppor... (just one example of the nuclear lobby disregarding public interest)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5od-uSGnrOQ (dutch lies about Joint Strike Fighter project - another militairy turkey)
http://nos.nl/artikel/446339-amerika-kan-mogelijk-in-epd-kijken.html (electronic health data up for grabs to a third party (USA gov)
etc. etc.

But that's not what YOU want, is it?

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 13:16 | 3028144 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

in a way you are way more pro-european than me, and there are many points where I agree with you

huge comment, I'll have to nibble at the edges first

"do one huge writeoff, fold the euro, and start anew, build a whole new banking system"

yes. conditionally and scenario dependent. for example immediately after a dollar total crash or a crash of our european banking systems - part of the planset specifications of the EUR

"fractional banking should be put to the grave", well, the problem is that's it kicks and screams

"The european peoples need a Constitution.." you are asking for a Federal Europe. Even the French voted against it.

I am for a Confederate Europe - what we are having now, including the weak, subordinate center of no great relevance and all the rest by treaty between sovereign nations.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 03:13 | 3027625 q99x2
q99x2's picture

That is the Goldman Sachs gang. They'll be tried at the Hague for financial terrorism someday not to long in the future. Right now financial crimes are in vogue. Things change.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 23:57 | 3027462 Reptil
Reptil's picture

LOL the "wild-eyed dude with a joint in his mouth" has probably known for a loooooooooong time that the system's fucked and doesn't work for himself, or "the people" but for a bunch of arrogant fuckers at the top of an imaginairy foodchain.

It's the "respectable apparatchiks" that are teaming up to push it all over the cliff, because their paradise is down there... somewhere. Prime Minister Rutte ("the laughing mollusc" as he's been called by some) saw his ratings drop to an absolute minimum, after the VVD party broke every promise that was possible, but they don't care. The population is in trouble, but apathic and holding on to a semblance of normalcy, the top layer can't be trusted, the middle management is grabbing all the money they can, while smiling. It's amazing to behold how a functioning country, with a centuries old history of humanism and development in government stuctures is taken to the slaughterhouse step by step.

Back in 2009 VPRO TV in the Netherlands aired a docu-drama "the day the euro collapses", which laid out the threatening collapse of the euro, to be saved..... by the brave bureaucrats stepping in, and forging a political union. tadaaaaaaa All fixed. In the show that is. How they'd go from A (a broken financial system) to B (a functioning currency) through this miracle was never "explained": It just happened so it's all ok.

Of course that's just one example. But illustrative of a planned "resolution". Because if the house is on fire, you close the fence of the garden. Or something.. I think the wild-eyed dude with the spliff is the sane one. I think I'll go join him now for a toke.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:39 | 3027170 Bansters-in-my-...
Bansters-in-my- feces's picture

CHEMTRAILS......

 

Thats what we are all smoking.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:36 | 3027264 covert
covert's picture

they are drunk on the illusion of power.

http://covert.ias3.com/forums

 

 

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:09 | 3027108 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

“I cannot be disillusioned because I no longer have any illusions about Europe,” muttered Euro Group President Jean-Claude Juncker

considering Europe is falling apart at the seems, while the Eurocrats fiddle to further empower/enrich themselves, and Juncker himself thinks a Greek budget can be solidified as far out as 2020 (when the Greek Govt can't control their flip-flop budgetary figures for any current quarter) i'd say Juncker is totally f'n delusional about his grasp on reality

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 18:23 | 3026917 Joe A
Joe A's picture

You need to know something about Mark Rutte: at home and in the press abroad he says one thing and in Brussels he says another thing. So I don't attach too much merits to his word in the foreign press. And domestically, he practically broke every election promise that he made. That might not be so shocking since all politicians are liars but the shocking thing is the speed with which he did it. He started his new government with a crisis and had to renegociate the deal he made with the coalition partner regarding insurance for medical costs. 25% of people who voted for him said they regretted doing so. And that only in a few weeks time.

And regarding van Rompuy: when one is building a centrally led planned economy of course one does not have a need for an elected president. He and the EC are not even elected. Well, by the MEPs perhaps but they will vote for anyone who gives them fat paychecks and expense accounts.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 00:10 | 3027475 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Yeah Rutte is doing a balancing act between two sets of lies.

And yeah Van Rompuy, he's taking this planned takedown as "an opportunity to shape a european political cohesion" (See his interim report posted before please.)

The people of Europe have 2 choices:
1. Sit there apathically while their world turns into an economical graveyard, and their continent into a totalitairian state.

2. Rise up, buy silver, throw a wrench in the machine, strike, REFUSE coöperation, before the machine is taken apart, WHILE THEY STILL CAN, and then after a purge (violent or not so violent), start over with a non-interest currency.

It's the lack of information, so there's no realisation, that the trap is about to close, and once it is, it's going to take a LOT more effort to open it up. There's people rising up all over the planet, Mexico, Argentina, Chile, USA, N-Africa, S-europe, but over here... they're still watching their game shows, in the hope it'll blow over.

It won't.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:19 | 3026793 knukles
knukles's picture

Hah ha ha ha ha ha

Whadda buncha shit.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:59 | 3026767 Joebloinvestor
Joebloinvestor's picture

I want to see the plans for funding the "standing army" and who gets defended first, should war break out (hopefully not between the participants!).

They want a common union only to spread the debt around.

Should anything happen, they will be on their own just like the US ambassador (and we all know how well that worked out).

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:18 | 3027227 andrewp111
andrewp111's picture

My best guess is that the "EU Standing Army" will begin as a police force, and will be sent to occupy States that default on debt, have internal unrest,  or try to secede from the (a) Union. Note that it may not be an entire EU State that secedes first - it could be a Spanish region, and EU Police could be sent in to buck up the Spanish State.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:52 | 3026751 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

PURE EVIL

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 15:59 | 3026654 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Charybdis of blind statism and Scylla of greedy oligarchy compete on how to squash the boat of of Odysseus, symbol of humanity; of intelligent humanity; as the dumb ones died at Troy!

Life is a bitch if you survive Troy, you die between Charybdis and Scylla! 

Hey Mr Tambourine man play Sisyphus's song to me! 

I wanna go back to Ithaca ! 

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 15:17 | 3026596 Vegetius
Vegetius's picture

There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.

- Leon Trotsky

 

The map for the future of the European Union is quite widely known amongst the powerful euro elite, it is hidden under the message of preventing war and making Europe a better place for its peoples. So we can see they have made a mess of all their plans but desperate times make desperate men, so they are going for the big prize as they see it. Of course it will not work and the whole edifice will crumble away and then collapse into a bloody mess.

The seeds were sown years ago and are growing strongly key target groups will be foreign groups like the Turks in Germany, Muslims in France and Holland with savage pogroms and ethnic cleansing. We will have the amusing spectacle of show trails of ex EU officials with ashen faced power brokers staring at the mob pleading for succour waiting to be taken on the tumbrils to the place of execution with their entire families.

I know some readers of ZH will be rolling their eyes at these remarks I would point out that the Russian revolution destroyed everyone from the middle class up estimated losses are in the order of 70 - 100 million, the groups that rose to power in Romania, Bulgaria and across the eastern Europe that became communist and the fun things they did to millions of people. Old news you say, well the Balkans is not old news the rise of the extremists in Greece is not old news. Things are going to get rough here in Europe.

“You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.”

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 03:35 | 3027632 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances.

- Leon Trotsky
______________________________

Welcome to an 'american' world.

In 'americanism', everything is situational.

Anyone living in the post 1776 world could have come up with that observation just by learning of the US history.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:39 | 3027268 August
August's picture

"We will have the amusing spectacle of show trials of ex EU officials with ashen faced power brokers staring at the mob pleading for succour waiting to be taken on the tumbrils to the place of execution..."

One must indeed find satisfaction in life's special moments.  

I still get a warm feeling all over when I recollect the Ceausescus being judged in an ad hoc legal proceeding, then being led out from the courtroom to be shot in the snow.  1989 - it was a very good year.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:36 | 3026726 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

All too true.  Those who know France well, will tell you it has still not recovered from the mass slaughter of the educated classes during the revolution.  Bloody as the twentieth century was with American wars, it will probably prove to be a rare island of tranquility, the exception that demonstrates the rule.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 03:41 | 3027634 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

from the mass slaughter of the educated classes during the revolution.
_________________

No kidding. That would mean that the "educated classes" could save the day in this 'american' world?

Outstanding claim.

____________________________
Bloody as the twentieth century was with American wars, it will probably prove to be a rare island of tranquility, the exception that demonstrates the rule.
_________________________________

What exception? There is no exception. Only the mere observation that it is an 'american' world and a US world order.

As put by one 'american' poster in here, the US is expected to be the eye of the storm. The US is the place to be to feel the less of the negative sides of 'americanism'.

Storms have eyes. It is how they are.

The 'american' storm has one eye: the US.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 13:24 | 3028149 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Got me again this time AnAn...

?????

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:37 | 3027044 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

just so you know that "rare island of tranquility", America, has a few wars going on across the globe, all under false pretences (lies to its people) compared to the farely peaceable France

it befalls the global leader of any Era, currently the US, to be the biggest basket case when it crashes (it's an ego thing) ..the US Govt parasites have already empowered themselves to go-to-war against their own people robbing and thieving every asset they have, as did the Roman and many other Empires during their collapse stage

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 15:59 | 3026657 falak pema
falak pema's picture

A pick axe for your pains for being so intelligent; just like Ciceron before you! 

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!