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Deaths From All Causes: The Short (But Not Necessarily Happy) Life Of Americans

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Wolf Richter   www.testosteronepit.com   www.amazon.com/author/wolfrichter

Americans under fifty are paying the price. We don’t know exactly why. Even the panel of experts that authored the massive report, U.S. Health in International Perspective: Shorter Lives, Poorer Health, admits that it can’t entirely pinpoint the reasons. But we do know how Americans under fifty, particularly males, are paying the price: with their lives.

The US health disadvantage, as the report calls it, is more prevalent among “socioeconomically disadvantaged groups.” But even if you’re “white, insured, college-educated, or in upper-income groups” and live a healthy lifestyle, you’re less likely to make it to 50 than your counterparts in the other 16 wealthy “peer” countries of the study—Australia, Austria, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the Netherlands, the UK, and the US. And if you do make it to 50, you’re going to get there in worse shape.

The report, based on mortality studies for the years through 2008, carves out three categories, “Deaths from Noncommunicable Diseases,” “Deaths from Communicable, Maternal, Perinatal, Nutritional Conditions,” and “Deaths from Injuries.” The latter, which I discussed in yesterday’s post, distinguished between deaths from “intentional injuries” and “unintentional injuries.” Grisly statistics. [Read.... How Americans Stack Up In Dying From Violence, War, Suicide, And Accidents].

“Deaths from Communicable, Maternal, Perinatal, Nutritional Conditions” is divided into dozens of categories and subcategories, and every country has its own nightmare. In Portugal for example, 7.4 people per 100,000 die of HIV/AIDS, more than double the rate of the country next in line, the US (3.4), and 246 times the rate of Japan (0.03).

Do the Japanese cover up their deaths from that scourge by declaring a different cause of death, such as pneumonia? Or is their reliance on condoms for birth control responsible for that immense success, at least in the hetero community? For example, in love hotels, and they’re everywhere, there is always a condom near the bed. One. If you need more, bring your own. One of thousands of tidbits I discovered in Japan—that all became the backdrop to an awesome story. And then a book. It started in France with a Japanese girl. Check it out on Amazon.... BIG LIKE: CASCADE INTO AN ODYSSEY.

Yet in Japan, 29.7 people per 100,000 die of respiratory infections, three times the rate in the US (9.7) and almost eight times the rate of Finland (3.9). On the other hand, in Japan, with its socialized healthcare system, the infant mortality rate is only 1.3 per 100,000. In the US, it’s 7.1. Over five times the Japanese rate. By far the worst in the group. But is it an endorsement of socialized healthcare? The second and third worst countries in infant mortality, Canada (5.9) and the UK (5.2), also have socialized healthcare. No easy answers.

Another conundrum: in deaths due to nutritional deficiencies, France is in the hot seat with 2.0 deaths per 100,000, twice the US rate (1.0), and way ahead of third place, Finland (0.14).

Overall, Finland has the lowest rate of “Deaths from Communicable, Maternal, Perinatal, Nutritional Conditions,” with 11.1 deaths per 100,000 people. On the other end of the spectrum: the US (33.7), the UK (36.1), Japan (40), and Portugal (45.5). So the chance of dying from these diseases in the US is three times higher than in Finland; but in Portugal, it’s four times higher.

Non-communicable diseases are the biggest killers. And easy answers remain elusive. For example, melanoma and other skin cancers kill 5.8 Australian per 100,000, the worst in the group. So we speculate about the ozone hole, the brutal sun, and people spending time on the beach. In Japan, the death rate is 0.47, by far the lowest in the group. So we speculate about people wearing gloves, hats, and protective garments every time they step outside. But then Norway has the second highest rate of deaths (4.7), followed by other northern countries, Sweden, Denmark, and the Netherlands. The US (2.8) is in the middle of the pack. And sunny Italy (2.0) and Spain (1.8) are outdone only by Japan.

Wedged between “Deaths from Neuropsychiatric Conditions,” such as unipolar depressive disorders, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and epilepsy are deaths from “Alcohol Use Disorders.” Danes succumb to it at a rate of 9.9 per 100,000—not including accidents. Next the French (4.0), the Germans (3.9), and the Austrians (3.9). For the latter two, the culprit may be per-capita beer consumption [Beer, A Reflection Of The World Economy?]. The US (1.6) is in the middle of the pack. At the bottom: Spain (0.38), Italy (0.25), and Japan (0.16).

In another conundrum, Alzheimer and other dementias kill Finns at the highest rate (34.9) followed by Americans (24.8)—both countries with relatively low life expectancies. At the bottom, Germans (5.9), Austrians (4.4), and the people who live longer than just about anyone else, the Japanese (2.5).

Cardiovascular diseases are a scourge in all wealthy countries, led by Germany (174.9), Finland (163.6), and the US (155.7). Least affected: Mediterranean countries Spain (115.7) and France (99.2), and finally Japan (97.3).

But there are some areas where Americans are lucky. Stomach cancer, for example, kills 2.76 Americans per 100,000, but six times more Japanese (16.8); and liver cancer kills 3.9 Americans per 100,000, as compared to 11.1 Japanese, almost three times more. Overall, non-communicable diseases kill Danes at a rate of 440 per 100,000, Americans at a rate of 418, and Japanese, the healthiest in that respect, at a rate of 272.

So, life expectancy for Americans is ugly:

“Something fundamental is going wrong,” lamented Dr. Steven Woolf, who chaired the panel. “This is not the product of a particular administration or political party. Something at the core is causing the U.S. to slip behind these other high-income countries. And it’s getting worse.”

The panel tried to nail down the culprits: a health-care system that leaves millions of people uninsured, the highest rate of poverty, education, eating habits, socioeconomic and behavioral differences, cities built for cars not pedestrians.... But it determined that these reasons cannot adequately explain the differences—because even wealthy, educated, insured whites with healthy lifestyles are getting the short end of the stick.

And worse: high infant mortality, traffic accidents, violence, HIV and AIDS, and alcohol-related mortality hit younger age groups the hardest—leaving them with a lower probability of surviving to age 50 than their peers in wealthy countries. And the lucky ones who do reach 50 get there “in poorer health than their counterparts.”

All this despite the costliest of all healthcare systems that eats up 18% of GDP. But now anecdotal evidence is coagulating into numbers that weigh down corporate earnings calls. It appears the wily consumer is having second thoughts about prescription drugs. And is fighting back. A paradigm shift that is causing “unprecedented concerns” in the industry. Read.... The Consumer Revolts Against Prescription Drugs.

 

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Sat, 01/12/2013 - 18:19 | 3147617 Shigure
Shigure's picture

Income inequality, the difference between the richest and poorest in a country, affects life expectancy according to research by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett in their book "The Spirit Level". They found that income inequality reduces life expectancy for everyone, richest and poorest.

http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resources/why-equality-better-everyone-s... (3 min video)

For a more in depth analysis - The Spirit Level part 1 on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxwEzReinv4

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 17:52 | 3147568 Umh
Umh's picture

Interesting and short article. It seems to show that there is more than one problem. Perhaps many different problems.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 17:48 | 3147563 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

Live well in Chile.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 17:22 | 3147526 the grateful un...
the grateful unemployed's picture

obesity is the big problem.  the only solution is to hire a bunch of people with bullwhips, and a few with bullhorns, then go to home depot and get the master keys to all these suburban homes, and run the people out of their house and down the street until their knees bleed. then burn their couch, and smash their TV. (i am sure some of them would pay for this service, because they can't lose weight any other way)

you could also expand the DUI checkpoints, have a portable scale, like they use for truckers. cops says, you're too fat buddy, you're going to jail until you get down to 200 lbs.

pretty soon you have a lot of skinny angry pissed off people. then you hold your presidential election.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 16:22 | 3149256 SmoothCoolSmoke
SmoothCoolSmoke's picture

And Mayor Bloomberg is a calorie Nazi?.........hooo-boy. 

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 20:00 | 3147777 Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

Cops says, you're too fat buddy, you're going to jail until you get down to 200 lbs.

 Will it be "one law for Them and another law for Us" then? Seems there are more than a few policemen and women who are well over 200lb (= 91kg for those who prefer the Metric system) in the USA.

Here in Australia 90kg is now regarded as almost a "normal weight"!! We regularly see 200kg (440lb) individuals, and our current record holder was 320kg (= 700+ lb!) - an ex-fireman.

ALL our Hospital adult beds are now rated to 180kg; the Bariatric beds (and wheelchairs) are rated to either 300kg (wheelchairs) or 400kg (beds). And we regularly have a "shortage" of suitably rated equipment . . . . .

"Welcome to the Fat Society!"

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 13:46 | 3148958 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Seems simple to self-resolve...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnwGC7oDYIY

 

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 23:50 | 3148175 the grateful un...
the grateful unemployed's picture

well honestly i had no idea, i watch Crocodile Dundee, or that poor guy who caught a sting ray,  and i think all of you look that way. but you have bullhorns and such, and home depot, or something, you can run these poor beggars into shape. your country will be better for it, and so will ours!!

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 17:24 | 3147525 HardlyZero
HardlyZero's picture

How many of the other countries with longer LE have very large social healthcare relative to their GDP ?  How many of these countries are already bankrupt (ahead of the USA) ?  That might shed light on this conundrum.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 16:59 | 3147503 mrdenis
mrdenis's picture

My best friend told me ...http://i.imgur.com/7rSr4.jpg

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 16:51 | 3147490 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

it started when people began eating out for dinner (and lunch) every day........fast food is the reason

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 16:47 | 3147477 Steaming_Wookie_Doo
Steaming_Wookie_Doo's picture

I spent time in Italy last year and given how much these people eat (and trust me, it's not fat free), you'd think they'd outweigh the Jabba the Huts down at the local Walmart. But no, mostly very lean people. They are all active though, lots of walking for everyone. I do notice their lack of Pavlovian response to clocks, i.e. they don't worry about being on time, don't seem too stressed. Also take joy in the pleasures of life. And no fast food joints! All the food is local, high quality, a lot to love. But not the slaves to the rhythm here in America. Of course we can be hyper productive, we just hate every minute of it, even if we have a big screen tv at home. Oh yeah, they don't seem to watch a lot of tv either. 

I think one factor is group dynamic or involvement. Do you get out and meet people? Do you know your neighbors and have them over to dinner? People don't have their heads buried in a piece of technology constantly over there (and not just Italy, lots of places). The introversion factor seems a biggie to me.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 03:25 | 3148436 Freddie
Freddie's picture

+1 Yeah - love Italy.  Not many McDonalds, Starbucks or other shit like the USA or UK.  The food is usually fresh and not processed.  The food can be simple but the quality is high.  In the USA it is bulk garbage.  McDonalds is the worst.

Itlains do like to watch football (soccer) matches on TV but they are not brainwashed like Americans.  Get rid of TV, Hollywood and processed foods and your life will improve.

As far as hyper productive, many Americans no longer are.  Young people with Facebook, texting, Twitter etc.  Parts of Italy are pretty productive including the far north.  

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 00:03 | 3148203 kareninca
kareninca's picture

And they don't reproduce.  If you're female, not having kids sure keeps the weight off.

Not really a recipe for an ongoing society, however.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 23:18 | 3148114 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Probably mainly to do with them not taking in much modern vegetable oil.

To wit, if you are taking in a lot of omega-6 PUFAs, like Americans do, AND having regular insulin spikes on top of that(from eating carbs), your cells are producing a lot more inflammatory compounds.    

Remove EITHER the omega-6 PUFAs (there are hardly any in good old olive oil they like in Italy) or the insulin spikes(pasta and bread are blood sugar jackhammers of which Italians eat plenty), and you cut down hugely on the inflammatory compound production.

You want to look Italian?   Don't ever eat anything with vegetable oils other than olive oil...grosso modo...and you're more than halfway there.

Olive oil unsaturated fatty acid is mostly monounsaturated fatty acid.  Take care to get the good stuff, keep it refridgerated and sealed, and consume within a few months.

Another thing you can do is take in more EPA, which competes with omega-6 based compounds for the chemical pathway that produces the worst inflammatory compounds.

Anyway, a lot of fat people are very healthy, aside from their fat tissue which is unhealthy, because it is a waste dump so often for the toxic fatty acid "AA" produced from conversion of omega-6 PUFAs.   Anywhere else it goes in the body other than fat cells it mostly does damage, even iy your body needs SOME amount of it.   Just not the noah's ark type flood we get from modern vegetable oils.

The other thing to do is moderate insulin spikes, mainly by eating less carbs and different carbs.   Stop eating bread entirely, forever, if you can, and that will do wonders for waistline and general health.    Bread kills.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 11:17 | 3148665 TrulyStupid
TrulyStupid's picture

Coconut oil is every bit as good as olive oil...particularly for light pan frying. The symbiotic relationship between big food, big medicine and big pharma is responsible for the poor health and high health care costs of the first world. Fight back with proper diet for you and your children, be active and giving, avoid anger and disseminating bullshit... don't buy insurance, pay cash to health providers and don't be afraid to seek low cost procedures in Mexico, Thailand, India  etc.

Recommended reading:  The Paleo Solution, Wheat Belly.

HNY

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 13:32 | 3148939 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

But, but, but...coconut oil is SATURATED fat!!!   The American Heart Association (an association whose chief contributors make their incomes from the existence and spread of cardiovascular disease, but nevermind that) says avoid saturated fat almost entirely and eat low fat diets generally speaking.  

The American Diabetic Association likewise insists on diabetics getting their carbs in good quantity, in combination with prescription medecines under regular insurance provided cashflow providing medical supervision.  Also, they recommend fructose, even though eating that causes "bad" LDL cholesterol to jump, reliably and quickly, highly predictably.

The USDA (DA stands for Dept of Agriculture, not say, Astronomy) says eat lots and lots of healthy whole grains.

Hollywood says watch plenty of their content, with popcorn and coke and candy at the ready, and the FBI says don't pirate.

Panem et Circens, bitchez!

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 16:11 | 3147429 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Because only Obama and his minions know what's best for everyone in the USA.

Go 'incentivize' yourself.

I'll do fine without Statist 'help', thank you.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 15:55 | 3147407 Son of Loki
Son of Loki's picture

Honestly, it's a good article pointing out a portion of the problem. Take a walk through Walmart and one can see where 90% of our problem rests. I was disappinted that Obamacare does zero to incentivize people to have more accountability with their own health instead of merely shifting all the costs of poor health (obesity, etc) onto others.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 04:09 | 3148469 Oldrepublic
Oldrepublic's picture

I was in a Walmart store in Mexico City recently, mostly middle class, average, unlike in the US where a different socio-economic class is on display at your local Walmart! 

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 23:22 | 3148118 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

The entrances to wallmart are lined with walls of cheap carbohydrates laced with cheap vegetable oils.  

Nevermind looking at the people, look at what Walmart's business analysts and computers have calculated is most profitable to line the entrance chutes and checkout chutes with.   Cheap carbs and cheap vegetable oils.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 17:39 | 3147550 Umh
Umh's picture

We get what we subsidize.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 08:08 | 3148540 Widowmaker
Widowmaker's picture

Great comment.

The diet of government racketeering and unsound money.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 15:48 | 3147399 Dr. Gonzo
Dr. Gonzo's picture

The fluoride they insist on putting in our water is probably helping to mess us up... in addition to the fast food/frozen food diet and horrible television programs. I put a reverse Osmosis drinking system in several years ago and switched to a non-fluoride toothpaste and stopped watching TV. Hey. No cavities mom!I Also bought a vitamix to get steady raw veggies and avoid the standard poison they sell in the grocery stores and opt for a traditional meat and potatoes diet. I can't correlate this for sure but it's probably why I'm leaps and bounds ahead of the average fat and slow American boob and probably why I've been buying precious metals for so long and becoming financially comfortable...You know. Because I can think independently and with a clear head.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 03:06 | 3148423 Freddie
Freddie's picture

+1 Very good suggestions. TV and Hollywood are shit and they want to disarm you.

What kind of reverse osmosis water system?  What is a Vitamax?  I need to check into non-flouride toothpast too.  Thansk.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 15:15 | 3149130 BooMushroom
BooMushroom's picture

Non-fluoride toothpaste is easy to find. Just look near the tubes with My Little Pony, Brother Bear, Strawberry Shortcake, etc.

Many of the 'kids' toothpastes are fluoride-free, and it says so on the label.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 15:33 | 3147380 Meremortal
Meremortal's picture

Obama will have the answer:

More laws. People are too free and make bad choices resulting in early death. Control of the populace is the answer.

What's most important is to raise our statistical rating against the other countries!

/s

 

 

 

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 17:59 | 3147585 Banjo
Banjo's picture

The populace is easy to control. If the US attacked Iran tomorrow the cheering would erupt around the nation. How many people will vote outside DEM/REP?

Just like Carlin said about the education system your health care system not about helping you live longer or healthy it's about getting the money out of you.

Much more cash to be made having fat hippos eating artery clogging food with high fructose corn syrup and jamming insulin in their body and popping experimental prescription pills, than having a fit society of people actually accumulating capital (real wealth) for themselves.

Also why is the US prison population so high? Oh I guess since the onset of "privatized" prison facilities you have to change laws that send just about anyone to jail for things such as having some pot. Yes you also pay for this. Enjoy!

Freedom and all that. Rah rah rah...

 

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 15:26 | 3147358 tango
tango's picture

What no one dares say is that US figures are a result of extremely unhealthy sub groups (racial and ethnic). Equally important is obesity.  Japan's rate is miniscule and this permits their health system to hold on a little longer. They have made overweight a cultural no-no that overcomes marketing, political posturing, TV documentaries, professional whiners/social welfare type.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 14:58 | 3149095 Conax
Conax's picture

They must have put all those Sumos on diets, then. Those boys are huge, and held in high esteem over there. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=K4cDSy-THS8#t=40s

Kiddin aside, the Japanese don't eat all the grain we do. They have to work at it to get fat on that cuisine.

A bit of rice, vegetables, chicken, fish and other bizarre sea creatures just aren't fattening.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 00:13 | 3148216 kareninca
kareninca's picture

There's no way to compare Japan's health system with ours.  First of all, I don't trust their statistics AT ALL.  Remember a couple of years ago when they sent people around to congratulate the country's centenarians, and it turned out that most of them had died long ago?  But the Japanese government didn't know it?  Because, in most cases, the relatives hadn't reported it so that they could keep collecting the benefits.

It's only been in the past few years, that Japanese doctors have started to tell people who have cancer, that they have cancer.  It used to be taboo to tell them; never done.  Think that might affect the treatment folks "opt" for?

Re Blitzer's hypothetical:  does the Japanese govt. cover up its AIDS deaths, by calling them pneumonia?  I'd guess  -  YES.

It is a country that has the facade of a Westernized country.  It isn't one.

Re the European stats:  do they have a special category for "let tens of thousands of old folks die in a heat wave"?  If not, their stats are crap, too.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 16:28 | 3149263 SmoothCoolSmoke
SmoothCoolSmoke's picture

And our stats are not monkeyed with?  3 letters for you: BLS.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 02:41 | 3148403 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Germany doesn't count even moderately premature births as having ever been persons, if they die.   In the US we include them all as persons if they live outside the womb, which adds a zero to the numerator and a one to the denominator in the US life expectancy numbers, dragging those down for the USA vs other places that often just let them die and carry on.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 17:48 | 3147546 Umh
Umh's picture

And after they get fat the residents of the United States of America hover. When you're so fat you need to hover you should probably walkaround.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 15:20 | 3147348 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

10 Worst States to retire in:

 

http://money.msn.com/retirement/10-worst-states-to-retire-in

 

 

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 15:06 | 3147322 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

Healthcare kills you.

Stay out of hospitals and avoid the doctor!

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 15:22 | 3147352 Hype Alert
Hype Alert's picture

Medical Malpractice .. by the numbers:  http://centerjd.org/cjrg/Numbers.pdf

In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA:  http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/11856.php

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 21:13 | 3147905 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

Amend the Constitution to Protect Americans from Hospitalization

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 15:03 | 3147319 cornflakesdisease
cornflakesdisease's picture

STRESS   STRESS  STRESS  STRESS  STRESS . . . . .

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 16:38 | 3147458 RichardP
RichardP's picture

OT:  RIP Aaron Swartz.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57563656/co-founder-of-reddit-aaron-...

Starry, starry night.
Paint your palette blue and grey,
Look out on a summer's day,
With eyes that know the darkness in my soul.
Shadows on the hills,
Sketch the trees and the daffodils,
Catch the breeze and the winter chills,
In colors on the snowy linen land.

For they could not love you,
But still your love was true.
And when no hope was left in sight
On that starry, starry night,
You took your life, as lovers often do.
But I could have told you, [Aaron],
This world was never meant for one
As beautiful as you.

Now I think I know what you tried to say to me,
How you suffered for your sanity,
How you tried to set them free.
They would not listen, they're not listening still.
Perhaps they never will...  Don McLean

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 18:40 | 3147651 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Great tune.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 15:49 | 3147400 Son of Loki
Son of Loki's picture

You don't mind if I scarf my cheeseburger & supersized fries down whileI read this, do you? I promise not to slurp my double thick milk shake on the screen.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 10:53 | 3148637 847328_3527
847328_3527's picture

Pink slime....with mayo or mustard?

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 15:08 | 3147330 centerline
centerline's picture

+ obesity, lack of exercise, etc. and it is amazing the US is still even on the list.  What it says then is that we have really good healthcare, supply chains, safety nets, and so forth - in general.  Once these systems really start to shake, expect the LE to plummet here, in the UK and many other places.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 17:29 | 3147533 HardlyZero
HardlyZero's picture

When things get rockin' and rolln' it will the the rate of change of LE that will be the 'tell'.  I'd expect the dLE/dt of the USA to be much more positive than any other highly-leveraged fiat-based high-debt high-defecit economy.  dLE/dt...that really shows what comes next.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 22:41 | 3148036 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Is that an Ankh Oscillator? One of the coolest pictures I've ever seen.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 16:59 | 3147502 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

You're wrong. Once people have to start walking or riding their bike more often, overall fitness will increase and LE will go up. Another thing, caloric deprivation increases life expectancy in rats. Should be the same effect for humans.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 15:08 | 3147325 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

Get a boxing ball and stick Obama's face (or Bernanke's) on it and then punch hard. That will relieve your stress.

Sun, 01/13/2013 - 02:21 | 3148376 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Hope & Change.

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 23:17 | 3148110 ShrNfr
ShrNfr's picture

Personally, it is more relaxing to get a little quality range time in with some 37 wadcutter, 9 mm, or a 1911.

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