First Congressman Allowed to Read Secret Treaty Says “This ... Hands The Sovereignty of Our Country Over to Corporate Interests”

George Washington's picture

We reported last year:

Democratic Senator Wyden – the head of the committee which is supposed to oversee it – is so furious about the lack of access that he has introduced legislation to force disclosure.


Republican House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa is so upset by it that he has leaked a document on his website to show what’s going on.


What is everyone so furious about?


An international treaty being negotiated in secret which would not only crack down on Internet privacy much more than SOPA or ACTA, but would actually destroy the sovereignty of the U.S. and all other signatories.


It is called the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP).


Wyden is the chairman of the trade committee in the Senate … the committee which is supposed to have jurisdiction over the TPP.

Wyden is also on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so he and his staff have high security clearances and are normally able to look at classified documents.


And yet Wyden and his staff have been denied access to the TPP’s text.

Indeed, the decision to keep the text of TPP secret was itself classified as secret:

(I have also received a tip from a credible inside source that TPP contains provisions which would severely harm America’s national security. Specifically, like some previous, ill-conceived treaties, TPP would allow foreign companies to buy sensitive American assets which could subject us to terror attacks or economic blackmail.)

Yesterday, Congressman Alan Grayson (who knows how to read legislation … he was a successful lawyer before he was elected to Congress, and has written and co-sponsored numerous bills himself including the bill to audit the Federal Reserve and – most recently – the “Mind Your Own Business Act” to stop NSA spying) announced that he had been allowed to read the text of TPP – and that it is  an anti-American power grab by big corporations:

Last month, 10,000 of us submitted comments to the United States Trade Representative (USTR), in which we objected to new so-called free trade agreements. We asked that the government not sell out our democracy to corporate interests.


Because of this pressure, the USTR  finally let a member of Congress – little ole me, Alan Grayson [anyone who's seen Grayson in action knows that he is formidable] – actually see the text of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). The TPP is a large, secret trade agreement that is being negotiated with many countries in East Asia and South America.


The TPP is nicknamed “NAFTA on steroids.”  Now that I’ve read it, I can see why. I can’t tell you what’s in the agreement, because the U.S. Trade Representative calls it classified. But I can tell you two things about it.


1)    There is no national security purpose in keeping this text secret.


2)    This agreement hands the sovereignty of our country over to corporate interests.


3)    What they can’t afford to tell the American public is that [the rest of this sentence is classified].




I will be fighting this agreement with everything I’ve got. And I know you’ll be there every step of the way.





Congressman Alan Grayson

Grayson also noted:

It is ironic in a way that the government thinks it's alright to have a record of every single call that an American makes, but not alright for an American citizen to know what sovereign powers the government is negotiating away.


Having seen what I’ve seen, I would characterize this as a gross abrogation of American sovereignty. And I would further characterize it as a punch in the face to the middle class of America. I think that’s fair to say from what I’ve seen so far. But I’m not allowed to tell you why!

Remember that one of the best definitions of fascism – the one used by Mussolini – is the “merger of state and corporate power”. Our nation has been moving in that direction for a number of years, where government and giant corporations are becoming more and more intertwined in a malignant, symbiotic relationship.   TPP would be the nail in the coffin for free market economics and democracy.

Note to progressives who support public banking: This is a key battle.

Note to those who oppose to what they call “one world government” or a “new world order”: This is the big fight.

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deerhunter's picture

Truth that matters,  silver under 20 and free by lunch time,,, just sayin,,,,,,,,

tradewithdave's picture

You call "Just For Men" "formidable". Grayson is the pot calling the kettle gray and then trying to cover it with hair dye. At this rate he'll make Senator and get Carl "potty mouth" Levin's seat on the permanent subcommittee on investigations. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and gray is gray... not black and white. One question: Would you trust Grayson as your business partner in spite of his conveniently entertaining and opportunistic patriotic grandstanding? He's going to be on the skeet range retiring snowbirds like President Obama did in that recent double barrel photo pop... PULL!!

jughead's picture

Before we slit our wrists and surrender keep one thing in mind...any "treaty" must be ratified by a 2/3 vote of the Senate.  While the secrecy of this thing is troubling, when it comes right down to it Article 2, Section 2 of the Constitution grants the President the power to negotiate treaties...not the House of these reps really have no Constitutional role here.  

"He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur;"


Tic tock's picture

But damn, you really have NO INKLING how politics actually works. ...There's Power and there's Philosophy, which do you think this is?

Spanky's picture

Both. But if you have no power, you must use philosophy to gain it first...

Tic tock's picture

FINALLY, and as chaos moves in the waters, it is time for this dream to begin anew...and to deconstruct this idiocracy.

CJHames's picture

This was an interesting story - until I found out the main source was Alan Grayson, who is one of the biggest lying -insane douche bags of all time.  There isn't a credible freaking bone in this clowns body.  He's little more than a side show barker.

Hey Al, if you had any balls at all you'd be a fucking man and spill the beans rather than tell us "I'm not allowed to say."  Grow the hell up.

nathan1234's picture

Americans allowed the Banksters to take over.

Slowly but surely from 1913 ,the Banksters and their corporates companies are in charge.

When this was spoken off earlier- everyone said it is a conspiracy theory.

Facts are clear.

It's upto Americans to save their freedoms and souls.


putaipan's picture

try 1871 and corporatization of the us.

LongSilverJohn's picture

Good news! I was able to find a box of .45 ACP the other day!

CJHames's picture

That's not good news, it's GREAT news.  Want to trade a 77 Harley flat top for it?

BlackVoid's picture

"This agreement hands the sovereignty of our country over to corporate interests"


Already happened.

putaipan's picture

that's my little red downie there blckvoid. no. this is new. this is worse. all else is a distraction.

god bless ya' g.w. !

iconoclast2020's picture

Rightly or wrongly this is the West's answer to China ... the west knows it needs collaboration to undermine China ... otherwise what would be the purpose of a "Eurodollar"?  A prototype has been presented to many of the most powerful leaders ... mints around the world are rolling out their own prototypes ... I guess we get world government whether we like it or not.

All Out Of Bubblegum's picture

I'd bet my Babe Ruth signed baseball that the same people crafting these secret laws and treaties are the same people to whom we "owe" $48 bazillion2.


"Until you know who has lent what to whom, you know nothing whatever of politics, you know nothing whatever of history, you know nothing of international wrangles." -Ezra Pound


NickVegas's picture

Isn't this treason?

GumbyMe's picture

In other words, nobody knows who's in charge of the freak show in Washington D.C.


The best Hollywood screenwriters couldn't come up with this kind of black comedy, since the most creative minds would never believe the level of idiocy and incompetency from the tards in Congress.

Never One Roach's picture
Never Give Stores Your Zip Code. Here's Why


The whole scene emerged only because Davis did not want to share her ZIP code.  Why make such a big deal over five digits that only records that someone lives in the same area as many thousands of others? Because along with other information, the ZIP code may provide the final clue to figuring out your address, phone number and past purchasing details, if a sales clerk sees your name while swiping your credit card.

CJHames's picture

Just give the clerk the wrong zip code number.  Does anyone think for one second I REALLY give some moron my REAL phone number or zip code when making a transaction?



BigInJapan's picture

One thign it will certainly kill over here is Japan's foreign ownership laws, which currently limits foreigners to a less than majority stake. Any seemingly foreign large company in Japan is really a Japanese company paying licencing fees to use a trademark.

They're all bleating about protecting their precious fucking rice - the most expensive and most heavily subsidized rice in the world - meanwhile their whole way of doing business - their collectivism, mercantilism, their protectionism - will be thrown down the shithole while they stand around talking about which member of AKB48 is the cutest.

China is just waiting for the fire sale at the end.

minakaze's picture

atleast their government is trying to to something not only for big bucks but also for their people whereas in the US the people get fucked all over by big money whoch has pockted the government ages ago. So, Japan should keep it up, fuck big money! here in Japan could can still afford the most expensive rice in the world even if you flip some burgers at Macshit whereas in the States you have to feed on cloned beef pink slime if you're not loaded...

minakaze's picture

atleast their government is trying to to something not only for big bucks but also for their people whereas in the US the people get fucked all over by big money whoch has pockted the government ages ago. So, Japan should keep it up, fuck big money! here in Japan could can still afford the most expensive rice in the world even if you flip some burgers at Macshit whereas in the States you have to feed on cloned beef pink slime if you're not loaded...

BigInJapan's picture

Do you even live in Japan, or if you do, do you spend your evenings watching variety TV and thinking how delicious the ramen looks? Then you're exactly who I'm fucking talking about.

Japan is run, 100% by and for big money, so get your head out of the sand. Nokkyo... Keidanren... do these words mean anything to you? And no, Japanese people can't afford to eat the world's most expensive rice - that's why rice sales are down year on year over the past 10. They eat more bread, pasta, and potatoes. Also, funny that you throw the word McShit around - MacDonalds Japan is the biggest restaurant chain... in Japan. Japan has it's own pink slime, white slime, grey slime, (insert colour) slime, son - you've eatern surimi, right? Shit Japan INVENTED mystery meat.





Wanton1's picture
Also, look for "murder by injection" campaign to commence now that Congress has passed no-fault vaccine protection for Big Pharma.
stiler's picture

ultimately, everyone will become a useful idiot of Satan; everyone still alive on the earth. They will be successful beyond their wildest dreams, until they realize they too have been conned. This fourth kingdom involves principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of this world, spiritual wickedness in high places. Human govts are joined with the Satanic.

decentralizedscutinizer's picture

Is this amendment starting to make sense to anyone yet? Perhaps Alan Grayson could suggest stronger wording:

28th Amendment (The Constitutional Emergency Amendment)

    Corporations are not persons and shall be granted only those rights and privileges that Congress deems necessary for the well-being of the People. Congress shall provide legislation defining the terms and conditions of corporate charters according to their purpose; which shall include, but are not limited to:
    1, prohibitions against any corporation;
    a, owning another corporation,
    b, becoming economically indispensable or monopolistic, or
    c, otherwise distorting the general economy;
    2, prohibitions against any form of intervention in the affairs of government by means of;
    a, congressional lobbying
    b, electoral sponsorship or advocacy
    c, educational sponsorship or publication
    d, media news reporting
    3, provisions for;
    a, the auditing of standardized, current, and transparent account books
    b, closing the FRB and the establishment of state-owned banks
    c, civil and criminal penalties to be suffered by corporate executives et al for violation of the terms of a corporate charter.

Optional: (or possible 29th amendment)

    The 16th Amendment to the United States Constitution is hereby repealed and Congress shall re-write the U.S. Code to reflect the changes embodied herein.

    (While we're at it, we could also repeal the 17th amendment)


Spanky's picture

Good, as far as it goes.

While we're at it, we could also repeal the 17th amendment

What might you be planning? Do you smell convention?

decentralizedscutinizer's picture

Sorry about that stream of consciousness. In direct reply to your comment: no, I'm afraid a constitutional convention, without first firewalling corporations from participating, would be co-opted like every other political movement in the last decade.

I don't think the (corporate-sponsored) States can or will pursue such a firewall unless mandated by popular petition to do so. For that reason I think the strategy must be to perfect the wording and limit all discussion to the specifics of one (firewall) amendment. We can deal with all the other red herrings and serious policy issues AFTER citizen sovereignty is restored. It would be nice to repeal the 16th and 17th at the same time, but if those issues became argumentative I would pospone them for later consideration.

The only issue we should be thinking of now is whether The People run this country; or Wall Street. A full-on convention would open pandora's corporate box and their lawyers would turn it into McEmpireland. KISS

decentralizedscutinizer's picture

Nobody can "plan" anything with a system this huge and dynamic; but "they" are going to try nonetheless. I don't see any effective opposition to global tyranny other than a renewed sense of national unity. If it's to be a civil war, it will be between Corporatists and Constitutionalists. I don't think most Americans even know which side they're on yet. That's what's scarey.

How did we come to fear public incorporation but willingly accept private incorporation?    

honestann's picture

How about "the reality amendment":

Fictitious entities are fictions, they do not exist.

All organizations are fictitious entities, including:

The central FACT is this.  When a few people, or a few dozen people, or a few hundred people sit down, craft a document, then sign at the bottom, nothing pops into existence.  Period.  In other words, nothing is created, and nothing exists that didn't exist before.

Furthermore, no individual who did not sign the document can possibly be a party to, or obligated by, or controlled by anything stated in that document.  This is obviously true, and made completely clear by the fact that any number of groups of morons could sign different documents that completely contradict each other.

Nobody alive today bears any relationship to, or any obligation to, the declaration of independence, the constitution.  And the only humans who bear any relationship to federal, state, local documents signed recently are... the predators who signed them.  Those documents have nothing to do with anyone else.  Period.

No government exists.  That's a fact.  What does exist is:

predators DBA government
predators DBA corporations
predators DBA central-banks

The predators exist.  Those names they call themselves are just names, just fictions, nothing more.

Until and unless human beings wake up and start treating predators as predators...

humans are finished.

putaipan's picture

even tho' i gave you a greenie.... the decentalized scrutinizer at least is presenting something "actionable" , you, not so much. ..... the white zone is for loading and unloading only.

honestann's picture

Oh, the number of actionable deeds is nearly unlimited at this point in history.  The only difference is, the deeds are left up to you, and up to every other individual.  And that's how it needs to get done, or it won't get done.  Ask anyone who was part of part of any resistance or guerilla campaign.

decentralizedscutinizer's picture

Would you then sign the amendment as written, or would you change it? How?

The question isn't really actionable options as much as strategically effective options. Red herrings are actionable but ineffective.

Have you noticed that not one single line of that amendment has been questioned for intended or un-intended consequences? Nobody's even really read it yet. I see you haven't. The hardest action, and the action most Americans are most loath to take, is thought.

If this amendment is doomed, it's because we've been mentally conditioned not to question the Holy Constitution.

Fact is: NONE of our Founding Fathers were constitutional scholars. They were THINKERS.

honestann's picture

Look, I wasn't being critical, just giving an alternative that is more my style, and more likely to work if humans could wake up and smell the reality.  I try not to be [too] critical of people trying to help, even if their idea is less practical or impractical.  Not that I expect more than a few human beings to wake up to my idea either.

But since you ask, however, I'll make a few observations.

I'm quite horrible at details of history (sorry, not that interested), but I have a vague impression that corporations did not even exist in the early years or decades of the fiction that is the USA.  All endeavors were individuals, or possibly partnerships (which are simply multiple individuals who are all responsible).

At some point some form of "corporation lite" came to be, but as I understand it, was limited to one specific project and a limited time (like build a railroad track from NYC to Chicago or something like that).

In theory, I suppose, anything can be regulated to prevent excessive danger.  However, it seems rather clear at this point in history that the control of anything remotely like a [large] corporation will always be taken over and then forever dominated by predators, and operated to scam, cheat, defraud huge numbers of individuals, and corrupt the fictions we know as "government" and "government laws", "government officials" and "government regulations".

So I'm not saying we don't need to be protected from "corporations", but the notion that the hugest monopolistic fictitious entity (corporation) of all (AKA "government") will protect us from large fictitious entities (corporations) is... well... obviously false.  Just look at present-day history, and believe me, not only present-day history illustrates this quite well.

Here is another worry I have.  I do NOT doubt that you and I could sit down and craft one, two, ten, twenty constitutional amendments that would make life massively more ethical and productive... if they were implemented and enforced.  But who enforces them?  Answer:  the predators-that-be.  Which renders them completely irrelevant.

I mean, really!  Look at the 1st, 2nd and 4th amendments right now.   The federal government (and other governments) completely ignore them.  No, worse than that, they explicitly defacate on them in public.  Those existing amendments have ZERO effect today.  The government arrests and wiretaps journalists... all journalists, all the time... as well as all individuals on planet earth.  They kick down thousands of doors and send swat teams to search homes without a warrant or any cause whatsoever (recall Boston recently).  They give weapons to gangs to increase gun crimes so they have a more salable excuse for ignoring and violating gun ownership rights.

I mean, really!  The congress, administration and courts regularly... every working day of the week in fact... pass and enforce and "find valid" laws that blatantly violate the constitution.  This is overt, in-our-face treason and tyranny.  And if you or I were to enforce the constitution (say, arrest Holder for fast-and-furious, or arrest Obama for fighting undeclared wars, or the whole Bush crew for paying thugs to hijack airplanes and collapse buildings)... we would be shot dead on the spot.

So I have to ask this.  Even if we wrote the most perfectly crafted amendment in the history of the universe, what would that accomplish?  Answer: Nothing.  Nothing whatsoever.  At this point in history it is blatantly obvious that the predators-that-be do whatever they want and think they can get away with, a line-in-the-sand that keeps moving further from ethical or constitutional every day.

I have a lot of respect and even admiration for many of the founding fathers.  I really do, even if my rants might vaguely imply otherwise.  But if we (good, ethical, productive individuals) are to have any chance for a peaceful, ethical existence in the USSA, we must get to the core, fundamental problems.  While the problem of "fictitious entities" is certainly important, and certainly close to being a core, fundamental issue, I believe it is not close enough for practical reasons I mentioned above.

The most obvious practical issue is obvious.  Who will enforce the existing constitution and amendments, much less a new one?  It does nobody any real good to pass laws or amendments if the predators-that-be continue doing whatever they want, and whatever they can get away with.

Do you not agree?

Understand that we all go through various stages of intellectual discovery and development.  Maybe this amendment is your stage of development, and maybe you must go through this stage to move further and become more effective and practical (as opposed to theoretical perfection).  So I don't want to throw a wet blanket on you are others.  All I want to do is perhaps toss a few alternate ideas out there that I believe are much more practical.  Having said that, I don't think any ideas or actions that pass through "official channels" have any chance of success any longer.  I really don't.  I firmly believe that if a constitutional amendment was passed that dissolved the federal government entirely, that nothing significant would change.  One of the procedural secrets of the predators for over 100 years now is that government has "been" and "acted as" a corporation for over 100 years now.  That is one of their original "technical covers" if they got caught and exposed along the way (whcih they didn't to any significant degree).  They knew they have no right to set speed limits, force you to register your car, force you to obey absurd laws, force you to pay [most] taxes, etc.  So they created endless for-profit corporations and scam people into becoming part of that corporation in one way or another (either as a member of the corporation, or as a customer with an agreement with the corporation).  So when you "apply" for a "driver license", you are being scammed into accepting whatever terms and treatment they chose to dump upon you.  Of course, this is pure fraud, since they will lock your ass in a cage if you do not apply for the license, apply for registration, and obey endless freedom-killing corporation regulations.  Hey, don't believe me, just find out whether your state and local police forces are "corporations" or "governments".  You will find they are corporations.  But sorry, that's just another side story in their endless perverted games.

So please forgive me for not investing a huge quantity of effort to figure out whether you (or they) wrote the theoretically perfect amendment with no cracks for the predators to sneak through.  Because I know the predators will ignore your amendment just as completely as they ignore all limitations on their actions.

Always, but especially at this point in history, the only solution is to treat human predators in the same way as all predators.  They will not be stopped by anything else.  Playing nice has not worked.  Playing legal certainly has not worked.  Playing lawful certainly has not worked.  Nothing has worked.

Which perhaps brings me to point out that "democracy is slavery", exactly and precisely.  No, I don't mean people can't vote on anything.  I mean "a majority cannot get whatever they vote for".  In fact, if every individual on earth votes to abuse me, steal from me, enslave me, or restrict my actions, that means absolutely zip, zero, nada, nothing.

I have stated the nature of natural ethics in ZH messages many times, again in the past few days if you want to go find it.  I have boiled the entirety of natural human ethics down to a single sentence, a rather simple sentence at that.  And I explained fairly clearly why my statement is the valid formulation of natural ethics (minor practical quibbles aside).  My point of saying this is this.  While the constitution isn't that huge, all human beings really need is that single sentence... and perhaps a few pages of examples (applications to specific situations) to make it unavoidably clear even to less intelligent folks.  Plus, it seems clear to me that the vast majority of human beings are literally incapable of valid intellectual activity when confronted with fictions.  Once people accept in their own minds that a fiction such as "government" exists... the game is pretty much over --- predators win.  I honestly believe that human beings are probably incapable of working out any significant modern problems until they refuse to consider any argument that contains fictions.  Or at the very least, until they refuse to consider any argument that asks us to accept any fiction to be something real.

That is precisely the issue you attempt to address in your amendment, in a manner of speaking.  Which is why I don't want to give you are hard time.

Before I gave up on fictional approaches, I had all sorts of ideas for "amendments".  For example:

#1:  Allow any individual to officially state for themselves, "I do not consent to be governed".  At this point they do not pay taxes, they do not need to obey laws, acts, statutes, regulations, and they do not receive any payments from government.  If they do something like "call 911", they must ignored, or they must pay the full cost of everyone involved in servicing their request, including all indirect costs.  Their property is not defended by cops or military.  And so forth right down the list.  However, they must not be inconvenienced in any way, or stopped from free and unrestricted travel on roads, airplanes or similar.  In other words, you can't say, "you cannot travel because we paid for the roads", or even more absurd, "you cannot cross any roads because you didn't pay for that".  Because after all, nobody created earth, certainly including "government", so nobody has the right to stop others from traveling it freely.  Essentially, this idea gives people the ability to "opt out" of government.  It would be perfectly fine with me to make this "opt out" selective, so you can accept and reject each "government service".  But it would have to be done with extreme care, because the predators are always be looking for ways to make "opting out" of anything impossibly inconvenient.

#2:  Dissolve the federal government.  That would help a lot, because it would make states compete.  Of course, the power of predators-DBA-states needs to be drastically dialed-back too, for example by #1 above.

#3:  Eliminate federal income taxes.  Or absent that, get honest about what is "revenue versus income".  I mean, seriously!  Look at how a corporation distinguishes "revenue versus income" for example.  For individuals, any time you trade your time and effort for goods or money, by definition, you have NOT made any income.  By definition, if you trade your time and effort for goods or money, both your time/effort and the goods/money have equal value, and thus you have no income.  But just dorking taxes is absurd.  They can still make everyone slaves, which is infinitely worse than paying taxes.

Well, just a few ideas for you to consider.  I wish you well.

PS:  The ultimate (and only valid) instance of "decentralized" is the individual.  All larger aggregates are simply fictional, and co-opted to justify abuse of individuals.  So I'm all for decentralize.

PS:  I am fairly certain the only way to prevent the disasters that flow from corporations (including fascism) is to eliminate the fiction entirely.  Even if you do eliminate them, the remaining rich predators will pay congress to re-create them, because those rich predators want the these corporation to protect them from their evil deeds.

decentralizedscutinizer's picture

The natural law (of the jungle) is what drove the first humans to incorporate. It took a tribe to kill a saber-tooth tiger or cave bear. Incorporating for mutual defense is natural. Human predators long ago siezed on the opportunity to enslave the weaker members and monarchs/tyrants have ruled for most of our history for 5000 years. Then came the Greeks and a guy named Socrates starting thinking real hard about ways to spread the love around more equally. For 2000 years mankind has edged ever closer to a democratic form of self-government in which every member of society was a shareholder in the corporation of government. It wasn't until 1307 that Philip the Fair had the Templars rounded up and killed for usurping the power of governments to establish and uphold a rule of law (however tyrannical). Edward the Third, of England, 60 years later commissioned the first private corporation to sail forth and steal from foreigners with the promise of a safe home port as long as the King got his share of the spoils. That's how corporations got so popular with governments around the modern world. Up until then monarchs were "above" petty business.

But the cat was out of the bag. Templars taught the world that the power to create and lend money trumped the sovereignty of sovereigns. So: while a sovereign democracy makes everybody an equal shareholder in the defnse of society, a democracy in debt to bankers recognizes only the safety of the banks' shareholders. Seeing this new reality, predators took to banking like fish to water. The democratic incorporation of government (that was originally formed to provide a defense against domestic predators) is thereby trumped by the predatory incorporation of ambitious business predators. Do away with the constitutional democracy and all you have left is predatory business corporations. Do away with predatory business and there's no organization at all: back to the old warlord, and we're back where we started 7000 years ago. OK . Now; how would you begin anew  to smite the evil predators that are still among us?  

The US Constitution was written to form three competing branches and multiple restrictions on its power to avoid this situation but failed to deprive business predators of their most powerful weapon - the ability to incorporate. Sociopathic predators have exploited that failure mercilessly and used it to corrupt not only the government but the culture and specifically you. (Me too until recently)

People are going to incorporate. There's no changing that. It's in our DNA. The only question is HOW; under what terms will such charters be tolerated by society for the function of mutual defense. Under what terms will we charter the creation of lesser incorporations? We certaintly want to place even more restrictions on a private (possibly predatory) institution than the already limited institution of government. We, The People, can only enforce that level of sovereignty when business corporations are completely stripped of any participation in society.

I hope you're not thinking that anarchy will rid the world of predators. I have no desire to go there.

honestann's picture

First of all, I refuse to accept the notion that "collaborate" and "cooperate" are identical to "incorporate" and "form corporations".  In fact, there is nothing but individuals.  Every claim otherwise is just nonsense, or more exactly, just fiction.

Now I have no problem with fiction per-se.  In fact, I freaking love fiction.  My whole life is about fiction in one way or another.  As an inventor, every product or technology I create is fiction before I do the work to make it real.  As a screenplay writer, every story is a work of fiction.  The problem isn't with fiction, the problem is that the vast majority of human beings are either incapable of distinguish real from fiction (at least many fictions), or is incapable of tracking the real-versus-fiction status of every mental-unit they manipulate when they think.  In either case, they become fundamentally (and clinically) insane as a result of their failure to identify and/or process fiction properly.

You're just crazy to claim human beings, including modern human beings, cannot exist without incorporation.  And actually, I don't think you believe this nonsense yourself.  I just think that for some reason you decided to equate collaborate with incorporate, which is just nuts, because they aren't the same concept.

BTW, explain how am I corrupted.  I'm certainly no apologist for any predator of any type.  So please, do explain.

The bottom line is this.  If every individual is ethical, and refrains from harming or destroying any other individual or his property, why is this not sufficient?  And why is voluntary collaboration and cooperation between individuals impossible without some wacko fiction like "incorporation".  I sure don't understand why you pervert these concepts the way you go.  For what purpose?  To justify incorporation, which always leads to predatory authoritarianism?

decentralizedscutinizer's picture

Your intellectual corruption is evidenced by your Sophist introduction of the words "collaborate" and "cooperate" to rationalize an illogical viewpoint. Look up "incorporate" . Just because a thing lacks embodiment doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You sound somewhat intelligent and might find yourself being more relevant if you actually understood the words you used. Look up "The Republic" and "Forms" "The history of corporations" on Wiki sometime.

You really do tend to go off the rails in your dialog. Where did you come up with "incorporation, which always leads to predatory authoritarianism?" The thought of myself justifying incorporation had me ROFLMAO. I think you'll do well writing fiction; it seems to come naturally for you........ Political philosophy: not so much.  

honestann's picture

To quote you:

The natural law (of the jungle) is what drove the first humans to incorporate. It took a tribe to kill a saber-tooth tiger or cave bear. Incorporating for mutual defense is natural.

Maybe you should study the nature and history of "fictitious entities".  They don't call them "fictitious" for nothing.  Here is one quote about fictitious entities that you might appreciate.  I wonder if you recognize the source, off hand.

The state is the great fictitious entity by which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else.

In case it isn't obvious, compare the statement "incorporation, which always leads to predatory authoritarianism" to the quote just above.  Hmmmm.  Interesting similarity, no?

But let me not be AT ALL obscure here.  ANY set of individuals who create and sign a document that claims to obligate or control individuals who are not signators is precisely "predatory authoritarianism".  And that is precisely what every government is.  Are we clear now?

HardAssets's picture

One of the best things ever written on ZH.

Mr. Mandelbrot's picture

Let's not wait for Dateline NBC to start catching our predators for us . . .

the grateful unemployed's picture

just postulating that the america made through collective sacrifice, and cooperation has been subverted by a system which owns both parties in a false democracy. i am old enough to remember. hmmm

spanish inquisition's picture

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Gotta be getting close to the definition with the TPP

kchrisc's picture

Please don't post "terrorist" and al Qaeda propaganda here.  /sarc

Spanky's picture

Nope. Way over the line. And has been for a long time...

Think what you will about the CFR, but just before the war started, in 1940, several "committees" commissioned a year or two before by the CFR to study US foreign relations were integrated whole-cloth into the State Dep as a new division... Policy and Planning. Dulles brothers ring any bells?

billw's picture

People you are dealing with an authoritarian regime. That is where all far left socialists end up taking their country. How are you going to fight them when they are spying on everyone, even the mainstream media that totally supports them. Everything that the left dreamed that conservatives might do, now the liberals have done. The left has gone full blown totalitarian.

calltoaccount's picture

the left right stuff is crap.  the socialist stuff is crap. the mainstream media are an essential tool of the elite banksters and relatred predators. this is not left right.  this is right n wrong.  the predators have gone totalitarian.  you're labels are outdated and illfitting.

kchrisc's picture

Look, if Grayson were really such a good American and not your typical scumbag piece of shit pol (sorry, don't mean to be so polite), he would just release the details and dare them to prosecute him and reveal more details.

That he won't, means he is using the "heat" of his constituency and the rest of the American people on this "issue" as a "negotiation" tool. He probably wants a judgeship or a cushy revolving-door "job."

Time will tell, but the odds are good that he'll fold and later end up at some big corp./think-tank as the "emeritus-well-paid."

Reader1's picture

Why not?  They leak everything else they learn.  Who leaked details of the bin Laden raid and secrets behind our analysis of the bin Laden videos, etc? 

calltoaccount's picture

"typical scumbag piece of--"?


how much do the cokes pay you to post this shit?