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How Should People of Faith - Or Atheists Who Want to Talk With Them - Think of Bank Crime?
Anthony Freda/Daniel Zollinger
What Would Jesus – Or the Rabbis of Old – Do?
Preface: If you are an atheist and believe that religion is crazy, please remember that some 85% of the American population identifies itself as Christian and millions more identify themselves as Jewish. Very few Americans are atheists. (And the majority don't trust atheists.) Therefore, knowing a few bible verses may be essential for atheists to be able to speak to people of faith.
The head of Goldman Sachs said he’s doing “God’s work” with his banking activities. The head of Barclays also told his congregation that banking as practiced by his company was not antithetical to Christian principles.
Are they right? Is big banking as practiced by the giant banks in harmony with Christian or traditional Jewish principles?
Do Justice
Initially, the Bible does not counsel us to ignore the breaking of laws by the the powerful.
In fact, the Bible mentions justice over 200 times — more than just about any other topic. The Bible asks us to do justice and to stand up to ANYONE — including the rich or powerful — who do injustice or oppress the people.
Indeed, one of the first things God asks of us is to do justice:
He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:8)
While many churches and synagogues have become obsessed with other issues, many have arguably ignored this most important of God’s demands of us. As pointed out by a leading Christian ministry, which rescues underage girls trapped as sex slaves in third world countries:
In Scripture there is a constant call to seek justice. Jesus got upset at the Pharisees because they neglected the weightier matters of the law, which He defined as justice and the love of God . . . Isaiah 58 complains about the fact that while the people of God are praying and praying and praying, they are not doing anything about the injustice.
Should Christians just pray for justice and leave the rest to God?
That’s not what the Bible asks us to do. Instead, Hebrews 11:33 tells us that we are God’s hands for dispensing justice, and God uses us to “administer justice.”
We have to “walk our talk” and put our prayers into action.
God demands that we do everything in our power to act as “God’s hands” in bringing justice. And as Saint Augustine reminds us, “Charity is no substitute for justice withheld.”
Indeed:
The Lord looked and was displeased that there was no justice. He saw that there was no one, He was appalled that there was no one to intervene. (Isaiah 59:15-16)
This is the only place in the Bible where the word “appalled” is used for the way God feels — in other words, the only thing which we know God is appalled by is if people are not doing justice.
There are hundreds of other references to justice in the Bible, including:
- Blessed are they who maintain justice . . . . (Psalm 106:3)
- This is what the LORD says: Maintain justice and do what is right . . . . (Isiah 56:1)
- This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. (Jeremiah 22:3,13-17)
- Follow justice and justice alone. (Deuteronomy 16:19, 20)
- For the LORD is righteous, he loves justice . . . . (Job 11:5,7)
- Learn to do right! Seek justice . . . . (Isaiah 1:17)
But shouldn’t we be deferential to the rich and powerful bankers?
No. Colossians 3:25 explains:
For the wrongdoer will have punishment for the wrong he has done, without respect for any man’s position.
So if the powerful players in the giant banks broke the laws, they must be held to account.
Fraud and Manipulation of Money
The big banks have engaged in systemic, continuous ongoing criminal fraud.
Allowing the banks to commit crime with impunity is not what Jesus would do. What would Jesus do? Turn over the tables of the money-changers. (economists agree.)
Moreover, the giant banks are manipulating every market in the world.
As Ron Paul notes, the Bible forbids altering the quality of money (which, at the time and place, was entirely in the form of coins):
Even the Bible is clear that altering the quality of money is an immoral act. We are instructed to follow the rules of “just weights and measures.” “You shall do no injustice in judgment, in measurement of length, weight, or volume. You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin” (Leviticus 19:35-36). “Diverse weights are an abomination to the LORD, and a false balance is not good” (Proverbs 20:23). The general principle can be summed as “You shall not steal.”
Proverbs 11:1 also provides:
Dishonest scales are an abomination to the LORD, but a just weight is His delight.
So to the extent that the giant banks have engaged in any dishonest acts or the manipulation of currencies, they are violating scripture.
Oppression of the Poor
Finally, the Bible condemns oppression of the poor for the benefit of the affluent:
He that oppresses the poor to increase his riches, and he that gives to the rich, shall surely come to want. (Proverbs 22:16)
To the extent that the giant banks have oppressed the poor to increase their riches, they are violating scripture.
Shouldn’t We Wait Until the Economy Recovers?
Apologists for Wall Street criminals argue that we should wait until the economy recovers before we prosecute the criminals.
But Ecclesiastes 8:11 notes:
When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, people’s hearts are filled with schemes to do wrong.
Nobel prize winning economists agree.
Important Postscript: Not all bankers are bad people. For example, many bankers at smaller banks and credit unions are good people who are trying to help their communities. Each must be judged by his own acts.
Moreover, corrupt government officials are half the problem. Indeed, the big banks wouldn’t have grown so large, or gotten away with so many bad acts, had corrupt officials in Washington not condoned their actions.
The Wall Street criminals themselves are not the real problem. The deeper problem is the malignant, symbiotic relationship between corrupt government officials and corrupt bankers.
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The rain falls upon the righteous and unrighteous alike. Anyone who thinks differently needs to read the story again ;)
please remember that some 85% of the American population identifies itself as Christian and millions more identify themselves as Jewish.
Please remember, once 100% of the American population had never heard of a christian or a jew, let alone identified themselves as one. From what I've read, the christians and jews wacked the ones they weren't able enlight. It was a strong motivator to get enlightened. Same thing with crusaders. It's evidently in the christian and jewish playbooks.
What a hypocrite this "GW" is. Obama sitting in the Oval Office is an injustice unto itself, as he is not an eligible natural born Citizen, and allows the voidance of the Constitution and US Citizen sovereignty. YOU YOURSELF ALLOW THE INJUSTICE BY NOT CALLING THE PUBLIC'S ATTENTION TO IT! Obama is a domestic enemy of the United States who has stolen our liberty, since he is not even eligible for the office yet wants to "transform" America. When there is no legal executor of the laws then there is NO LAW. Get a Clue!!! The criminal NWO put him there specifically for that reason--- so that they can loot the treasury under cover of lawlessness.
Obama is not a natural born Citizen and not eligible due to birth as a British subject, of a British subject father. ALL of his unconstitutional legislation signed, executive orders given, and Marxists appointed are NULL and VOID, since he would enjoy no Presumption of legality due to his actions in bad faith, and because millions know that he is ineligible. He can be removed, according to the 25th Amendment and 3 US Code 19--- due to "INABILITY" (i.e Constitutional disability).
Speak the truth GW, you coward.
... due to "INABILITY" (i.e Constitutional disability).
Where does MickV get this nonsense about "inability" being something besides accident or illness, or murder?
Of course he's not a natural-born citizen, but Congress and Justice Roberts went ahead with choosing him anyway.
Who the fuck do you think is gonna unseat him without killing him dead?
Where do you get the idea that it is only about physical disability?
"INABILITY" can certainly mean "constitutional disability", especially since "Constitutional disability" were the exact words used in the part of the 12th Amendment that the 25th Amendment replaced. and which 3 US Code 19 is the Congressional statutory framwork of. Especially since the exact words of 3 US Code 19 are "the person ACTING AS PRESIDENT" which further implies that that person is not Constitutionally eligible.
" INABILITY" can certainly mean "not having the legal capacity", If it only meant "physical disability" then it would have used those words. Inability means "physical or constitutional disability".
All of you morons have the answer right before your eyes. That the person acting as President can ne removed because he is Constitutionally ineligible is Kryptonte of the Criminal class of bankers, putative POTUS, the fawning media, and treasonous Congress.
Obama may not be a U.S. citizen.
~ OR ~
OBAMA THE LOVE CHILD - END OF THE BIRTHER NONSENSE!
I don't know which is true ...
I am not sure exactly "what" Obama is ... there are so many false trails ... many times it is impossible to fully understand what something is simply by looking at its shadow.
The question is: does Obama cast the shadow or is he only the wall on which we can see the shadow? My "guess" is that it is the latter and so any discussion of what Obama is, other than a gifted teleprompter reader with a girly golf swing is pretty much moot.
You still don't get it silly GW. Still protecting the Usurper?
"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President"; A2S1C4
It is NOT whether Obama is a US Citizen. It is whether he is a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN---- which he is definitely NOT.
"The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners".
Minor v. Happersett, 88 US 162, 167 (1874) US LAW IN THE FORM OF SCOTUS PRECEDENT.
You really shouldn't have the nom de plume "George Washinngton" if you know nothing about the Constitution.
Mick, Mick, Mick.....before you took a dump on poor George, the least you could have done is read the link he offered you. If Obama's papa is Frank Marshall Davis (as seems quite possible) and his mama is Stanley Dunham, then both of his parents are U.S. citizens. Hence, he was born to US citizens in Hawaii, which is sort of a US state and is thus a native born citizen, as well as a natural born liar.
And Jeff Dunham might be the president's half-brother, in which case he gets---nothing.
By the way "or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution" is the grandfather clause that made eligible all of those that were made citizens of the US in 1789 by the adoption of the US Constitution. The first natural born Citizens, those born in the new United States since 1776 were only 13, so the founders of the country (including George Washington) grandfathered themselves in as eligible. No one born after 1789 of foreign parentage is eligible.
Athiests are just like faggots and Democrats. They have only one argument -- that unsustainability is sustainable.
"just like faggots and Democrats"
That is so terrible. Not just the hate speech, but the redundancy.
Dupe. Eat shit NSA.
One more point is the fact that firms like JP Morgan have paid fine after fine yet they continue to engage in bad behaviour.
WOuld that behaviour continue if the fines equated to the profit made from such behaviour rather than being only a percentage of the profits made?
Would the crimes and unethical acts continue of the CEO was executed or thrown in jail and sodomized by Bubba every time they were caught in a major violation.
Money means nothing to them since they have the power to either borrow or create out of thin air, infinite sums of fiat.
For sure, Peter Pan, the basic principle developed in the law for Centuries was that punitive damages had to exceed the profit made from the crime, or else those damages were merely a cost of doing business by committing that crime.
That jurisprudence is clear common sense. However, it is also obvious common sense (to anyone who looks) that the best organized gang of criminals are able to covertly take control over the government, so that the rule of law no longer actually applies to them anymore. They can prevent investigations from ever happening, or only have to pay token fines, which are nothing but a trivial cost of doing business by continuing to commit their crimes.
Obviously, the ultimate achievement of organized crime is to take over enough control of the government so that they are able to legalize their own crimes. THAT is the deeper problem behind the current systems. The existence of the Federal Reserve Board, and their Federal Notes, as "money," is the supreme "crime!"
Being able to legally counterfeit "money," became a privatized privilege, given to private banks, but that privilege is otherwise criminal for everyone else, except those banks! That necessarily becomes runaway social insanity! But nevertheless, the whole world is now almost totally dominated by the international banksters being able to create the PUBLIC MONEY SUPPLY, enforced by governments, out of nothing, as debts! That organized crime gang is the new royalty, with de facto sovereign immunity to commit financial frauds.
IF one thinks long and hard enough, it is clear that money is measurement backed by murder, where the debt controls depend on the death controls. There are NO genuine solutions to these problems outside of that frame of reference. All notions about "monetary reforms" that fail to address that deeper problem are merely more bullshit. The deeper problem is that government IS organized crime, controlled by the best organized criminals. Since most people have been brainwashed to believe in bullshit morality about that, there is no reasonable hope for the future.
The most vicious wolf-people, dressed in sheep's clothing, have taught the sheeple to bleat their morality. Christianity is basically a religion for the Zombie Sheeple, to be able to get on with their lives, while they let the biggest bullies run their world. The reality of 85% of Americans saying that they are some kind of "Christians" actually means that 85% of Americans are Zombie Sheeple, being routinely fleeced, while they are set up to be slaughtered.
Most of their bogus "leaders" are exhorting that everyone should be better sheep. That always backfires, and enables the most vicious wolves in sheep's clothing to continue to control things. My recommendations that everyone should become better wolves tends to be the most unpopular and most misunderstood position to take on these issues. HOWEVER, the social facts are that citizens actually are members of an organized crime gang, which they do not understand, and do not want to understand, and therefore, act as extremely incompetent citizens.
That the biggest banks routinely pay trivial token fines for breaking the law is merely one tiny tip of the iceberg of the problems. I would only slightly exaggerate to say that at least 99% of the rest of social reality is something that 99% of the people do not know, and do not want to know. That is why I find articles like the one above by George Washington to be quite depressing ... There are no good reasons to believe that anything can possibly happen than that this overall social insanity situation is going to get worse, faster, until triumphant runaway financial frauds finally result in the psychotic breakdown of the economic system.
Brilliant as usual.
I see the strange popularity of religion in the USA as symptomatic of a social illness. Here is a population in which people have been turned on one another, dog eat dog, down to the family level in pursuit of corporate profits. Individualism rules. Don't share, that's piracy or worse..COMMIE!
Yet we evolved as social animals. We're in-tribe carers (and out-tribe killers) so excessive individualism leaves us empty, a modern aberration that distresses the otherwise mentally healthy (fine for psychopaths who are, disturbingly, now being selected for). Religion steps in as a cheap psychological fix, a salve to keep the peons somewhat functional, giving them a sense of community and belonging. Then there are all the pills...pharma would prefer that.
----
Democracy is imperfect, but it remains the best option yet tried for maintaining a happy society. It works because it is somewhat effective at diluting power, thereby reducing the opportunity for concentrated killing.
However money is power because money buys people. Concentrating power, a consequence of the privatization of money supply, therefore destroys democracy and ultimately leads to oppression in the most extreme form: war.
Here is Jay Hanson on the matter:
"Unscientific Aspect #3: Economists assume that “money” is only a “medium of exchange”:
“MONEY: Anything which is widely acceptable in exchange for goods, or in settling debts, not for itself but because it can be similarly passed on, has the character of money since it serves the primary function of money, i.e. a means of payment. As a means of payment money is an entity which is transferred when a payment is made; as such it acts as a medium of exchange, a function essential to any economy other than the most primitive.” [p. 285, THE MIT DICTIONARY OF ECONOMICS]
"But even the casual observer can see that money is social power because it “empowers” people to buy and do the things they want—including buying and doing other people: politics."
"If employers have the freedom to pay workers less “political power,” then they will retain more political power for themselves. Money is, in a word, “political,” and “economic efficiency” is correctly seen as a political concept designed to conserve political power for those who have it—to make the politically powerful, even more powerful, and the politically weak, even weaker."
"Our national currency provided the means for moneyed interests to capture our formal political system."
-more at http://jayhanson.us/
Thanks for that Jay Hanson quote, Mediocritas!
I will copy that into my kind of personal diary on:
Some Monetary System articles.
Thanks for the link. Going to take me months (optimistic?) to chew through all the good posts in that forum. Hope you're keeping a few backups around the place.
I am a Christian and yet it is clear to me after a lifetime of experience and observtion that good and evil is to be found amongst Christans and non Christians, agnostics and non agnostics, Jews and non Jews alike.
Bank crime is simply theft and we all more or less know such a crime when we see it.
However, there is a greater crime than bank theft and that is either the neglect of authorities to stop and punish such crimes or even their total protection of such crime for whatever reason.
We all hate criminals but we alll hate crooked and corrupt cops even more.
We are tested by evil and can learn much from it ... ultimately the dialectic must be resolved internally within us, only the school is "without".
Another excellent article from George Washington, which, alas, actually has the final effect of making me despondent.
Throw a dart at the map of the world, and one will likely hit some history like the following, as an example:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/christianization-lithuania.html
The human realities are always organized lies, operating organized robberies. "Christianity" was a well-developed system of hypocrisy to justify its plunders. One only has to look at how big the human organization is, to know how much dishonesty and violence was behind it!
The only way forward is to continue to muddle through the madness that civilization is controlled by huge lies, backed up by violence, and the things which exist are some possible dynamic equilibria between the different systems of organized lies, operating organized robbery.
Typically, the more that people say they are doing "God's work," the more that they are actually justifying themselves doing the opposite.
I started off as a third generation atheist. However, I broke through to recognize energy is spirit. Therefore, I now regard the principles of the conservation of energy and momentum, and the preservation of information, as being an indication of the signature of "God," or the Supreme Being.
Take heart ... Christianity is good and true, but it was corrupted and twisted by "men" in the early 300s AD. The story goes that Constantine, a pagan king, converted to Christianity. However, in truth, it was the other way around. When Constantine converted to Christianity he formed the counsel of Nicaea which then, with his guidance decided the official dogma of the Christian/Catholic church. The church became essentially pagan per Constantine's designs. One of the main goals of the "new" christainity was to hide our past and the truth.
As two examples, early Christians believed in reincarnation as taught by Christ (and written in apocryphal texts) and they did not believe in hell. These are two concept that decrease the power of despots and the church over people.
The teachings of Christ and Christianity are good ... it is just men who are imperfect and for that Christ died for us. Still iMO, it is important to endeavor to resolve the conflict inside.
Yes. The actions of evil men twisting and manipulating that which is spiritually good for their own temporal ends.
The olde question of "Did man create God or did God create man?", well dated from the days of Newton at the College of the Undivided and Holy Trinity at the bridge over the River Cam is a philosophical trick.
For the correct answer is "Both."
There was a reason they called it the ROMAN Catholic Church. What do you think Rome was remembered for? Not charity, and certainly not humility or discretion...
When gold is your God...doing "God's work" indeed.
Aggression is the taking of another's Life, Liberty and/or Property without permission or contract. Fraud is theft. When fraud is commited with the protection or action of violence from those of government, it is an act of war. Committing "war against them" is treason and may be punishable by death.
Bring on the guillotines.
Thank you, George.
I always enjoy the "lessons" and appreciate others who relate to the true insights.
T'is sad a reference as such brings out the less considered, the insecurities, thoughtlessness and ego-eccentricities of so many.
But then again, character is identified in numerous ways, no?
To assume there is no God demands extreme speculation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxjiEi2Eywk
The Scriptures have two natures, according to it's writers, that of "letter" and "spirit", or the literal and the allegorical. Trying to pull lessons from the Scriptures regarding natural things and this natural life will result in many discrepancies and apparent contradictions. Seen in allegory, there is no such problem.
When the Word speaks of "money" and "treasure", it is not speaking of literal money or wealth. It is speaking of how we look at the Scriptures and understand them, either literally ("treasure laid up on earth") or as parable, allegory, figures, etc. ("treasure laid up in Heaven"). Although Jesus literally chased the money changers out of the temple, it has nothing to do with physical money. It is a figure of his chasing the carnal understanding of Scripture out of us.
A lot of wasted thought and text about something very simple. Two words - Golden Rule.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
Supplemented with this:
“In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trails 1945-1949) I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men. Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.” -- Captain G. M. Gilbert, the Army psychologist assigned to watching the defendants at the Nuremberg trails
Very well said. I'm not so concerned with whether a person is religious, non-religious or even anti-religious. What matters to me is: Are you what I call a person of good will?
Is your fundamental attitude towards other people characterized by love and concern, or are you.......Jamie Dimon?
GW, interesting you want to engage in such a heated topic with your article given the global religious wars taking place.
This country is as far removed from Christ as it has ever been so trying to even suggest a civil conversation between Atheists and Christians is a non-starter, and one could even suggest that this move away from Christ has contributed to this country's ills. What is most interesting is while the effort to separate church and state has been effective, what most people aren't noticing is the infiltration of our federal, state and local governments, laws, and protections of our civil rights are being threatened in the name of Allah.
Lol. Christ has blessed us with a great military and we're mowing down the brown people by the millions. Another billion to go and we'll be totally free!!!
Indeed....
Many thanks.
so 85% of Americans look crazy for not being atheists.
Not surprising. Until they wise up I have little to say to the fundie-nutters.
Still waiting for mankind to create a living organism out of dust...
Still waiting for a law of physics that works AT THE moment of the big bang...
Still waiting for a viable explanation of plate tectonics and subduction...
Still waiting for the finding of a transitional fossil that's in stages of transition....
Still waiting for the return of our Lord, Jesus Christ!
So you don't read much.
Craig Venter made a living organism a few years back.
http://www.ted.com/talks/craig_venter_unveils_synthetic_life.html
Also subduction has been easily explained by fluid movement of magma pushing plates together. Sometimes they push each other up (mountains), sometimes they don't (one plate is shoved under another).
It's that simple.
This has been known for decades with zero possibility of error.
As for the "moment" of the big bang no one even knows IF there was a big bang. All we know for sure is that we can see the most recent expansion of space-time using our telescopes and we can create the more elementary particles that existed at those levels of energy density by smashing particles together today.
You should try reading more. What you think is unknown has been known for decades.
Transitional fossile: tiktaalik rosea right here:
http://tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/images/meetTik1.jpg
and here http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/06/images/060406.tiktaalik-3.jpg
So basically you refuse to even look, and then pretend no one's ever seen it. We have.
You still have to get the dust first. ;-)
Still waiting for the christians to walk over from the abortion clinic to the bank to protest usury....oh rrright.
The primordial desire to be subdued, to bow at the feet of someone or something more powerful than yourself. A primitive desire of a primitive mind. Jesus aint coming back love, because he doesn't exist. There may have been a man called Jesus Christ who existed 2000 years ago but the rest is fabricated. The very fact that a large number of people still think the earth is 4000 years old, that there are talking bushes, that entire seas can be parted leaving the sea bed upon which to walk, of floods that covered the entire earth and all of earths creatures boarded an ark in two's. This simply is sad enditement of a gullible uneducated organisim whose stupidity will be it's undoing. The human race will pass into antiquity.
Can a christian please explain to me how it is possible to believe in the infinite complexity of a being who always existed but not believe in simple natural processes that become accretive to complexity over billions of years. Are you people on coke or something. Can you also explain how eternal life (or consciousness without a body if you can call that life) is a desired outcome. What are you supposed to do or think after the first trillion years have passed. Do you sit and think, mmmm, wonder what the next 1000 trillion years will bring. You people are crazy and I don't mean that in a off handed manner, I mean, you are really, certifiably nuts. The term "confirmation bias" was invented for you people. Isn't it amazing how comfortable you are in your delusions when a majority of others share the same delusion. How many times have market analysts studied this behaviour when it comes to herd investing but you people can't take just a small step back and recognise the same behaviour in religious beliefs.
BringOnTheAsteroid asked:
"Can a christian please explain to me how is it possible to believe in the infinite complexity of a being who always existed but not believe in simple natural processes that become accretive to complexity over billions of years."
Well, I will give it a lash but with a couple of qualifiers. While I am a believer most Christians consider me a cultist because my beliefs are fairly removed from the mainstream. And of course what I believe might be wrong. But I promise not to excommunicate or kill anyone who believes differently. Oh, and while I haven't used coke lately I am a little drunk and stoned (vodka & marijuana) right now.
So with that said back to the question noted above:
The short answer is that I can believe in both a creator who always existed and the simple natural processes of creation. Just because you say someone can't hold both those beliefs doesn't mean it is so.
You also asked for an explanation of how "eternal life (or consciousness without a body if you can call that life) is a desired outcome".
The short answer is that I don't know. Maybe I will be able to get back to you on that after I make that trip to the other side. Be it heaven or (a new) earth or hell but I don't believe in hell but then again I could be wrong or change my mind :)
There are longer answers for both of those questions and many others.
Maybe the processes are also cycles. creation, destruction, creation again, destruction again. The same (mostly) over and over or maybe different (mostly) each time. If you want an allegorical frame for it consider that the Bible tells us that God created the world and everything in it and called it good but also created or allowed the means (free will) for it to become not good (evil for lack of a better word ... angels trumpets and devils trombones)). And when the evil reached a certain point God was actually sorry that he had ever started the process. He repented of it and destroyed what he had made but preserved a remnant. Circle of Life.
Come on everyone! Let's all sing together ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bRJLkNqNXI
"Can a christian please explain to me how it is possible to believe in the infinite complexity of a being who always existed..."
Thanks for asking as I'm excited to share! From my memoirs recalling my childhood at age 5:
Every night during my preparation to heaven, I would lay in bed as still as possible, slowing my breathing and tightly squeezing my eyes until they became painful. This could take a few minutes and when I was sure I had reached maximum pain, I would slowly relax my eyes and while keeping them closed, see before me a moving swirl of purple, blue and green. Within a minute or two, the moving colorful swirl would clear and I would sense myself leaving my body and traveling in the darkness of the cosmos. Ahead of me in this large dark space was an immense swirl of intensely colored jewel-toned stars surrounding a tiny but every growing bright white light that grew larger and larger as I traveled closer. The journey seemed to take a long time but I didn't mind as the utter beauty of the colorful stars was breathtaking. I “flew” ever faster, gaining speed, approaching the white light that shone so brightly it was beginning to hurt my eyes. The light became so bright I had to look away because I couldn't bear it any longer. Before I knew it, I was there, in Heaven, and I found myself in a large room with soft peach or gold lighting (the memory of the color of this room is a bit fuzzy after all these years) emitting everywhere and not coming from any particular source. Angelic music, unlike any I have ever heard then or since, played softly, and was the sweetest, most amazingly beautiful music imaginable. Large drapes, like those seen hanging in an auditorium or theater, hung behind the throne, and were also the same color as the lighting.
I was not to witness those seated on the throne but innately sensed the presence of both God and Jesus seated side by side on the throne. I could hear them talking but could not make out what they were saying. I could not see the Holy Ghost, not because I wasn't allowed but rather because He was within me. Human-like spirits, while featureless and unclothed similar to the appearance of a shadow, softly glowed with the same colored light. Many of them were there in the throne room, talking and dancing and singing with me and I reveled in the merriment and joy of it all. I too, took the same form of these spirits while there, and felt light as a feather, my feet barely touching the floor. I cannot recall what the spirits and I spoke about, but I remember the feeling I left with was a loving, joyful experience that I found myself yearning to return to again night after night.
I grew up in a secular home, we went to church only on Easter Sunday. We didn't read the Bible and I knew very little about the world. At 5 years old I should have been dreaming about Santa Claus or rainbow unicorns.
Now you know why I'm a Christian.
Your secular parents were hippies and you busted into their LSD stash.
Hm.
Well, I guess that solves the mystery.
Sounds like a great meditation experiance. Thanks for sharing.
Michelle, deadly serious question. What makes you think your internal experience has any bearing whatsoever on the external world we call reality. Your confabulation borders on clinical, psychotic delusion or hallucination. I am not being deliberately insulting, I am deadly serious.
@Asteroid,
Science can surely explain my experiences as being humanly possible but the bigger question nobody ever asks about these experiences or Near Death Experiences (which are uncannily similar as I've since learned) is this:
If the brain is undergoing stress, why do these people "travel" to heaven and not someplace else and return knowing where they've been?
I have been asking myself this question my entire life and the answer I always come up with is the same: I don't know but if God exists and He has given me a gift through these experiences I would be a fool not to pay attention. Maybe to put it another way is WHY SHOULDN'T I BELIEVE? I don't agree with many organized religions and therefore I don't attend church but I'm a staunch believer otherwise.
BTW, I have shared these experiences with only my immediate family and have never publicly shared with anyone outside our family before but your inquisitiveness urged me to do so for the first time even though I'm putting myself out there to be discredited as a psycho. Does it matter what anyone thinks? Nope.
Are you not curious why all the imagery within these dreams or hallucinations is all entirely predictable and contains familiar concepts, regular flow of time, standard or normal interconnectedness of people and objects and so on. Are you not at all curious why you can bring nothing back from these experiences that we have not already experienced in the imagery of art and film and fiction.
It strikes me, continually, when talking with theists and I've spoken to many that narrate a very similar experience to yours, why are you so confident in the inner workings of your mind when we all know how fallible the human mind is. This is where I must invoke adjectives like gullible, there is no other word for it. If a schizophrenic tells you they hear voices do believe the voices are manifested from outside their mind and that they have some special gift to tune in to these voices. Or do you think the voices are a product of a malfunctioning brain and that the schizophrenics reality has been compromised.
I've had brutally frank discussions along these lines with simply whacky theists before that have resulted in them simply disintegrating into tears, as if the curtain on their true state of mind has finally been lifted. Is this desirable, yes, but only when they are trying to sway others with their delusions.
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Hypoventilation kills brain cells.
hypoventilation (also known as respiratory depression) or Odine's Curse and also called congenital central hypoventilation syndrome (CCHS) or primary alveolar hypoventilation, is a respiratory disorder that is fatal if untreated. Persons afflicted with Ondine's curse classically suffer from respiratory arrest during sleep. Or they sometimes become Christians!
Dead brain cells.
Isa 5:21
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!In 1996, Michael Behe, a biochemist who looks at the wonders of the microcosm of creation, rather than the macrocosm, wrote Darwin's Black Box, and argued that the single tiny cell is "irreducibly complex," and therefore the product of intelligent design, not chance. "Irreducible complexity" means that the immensely complex cell has a large number of parts that all work together in such a way that the absence of one part stops the entire function - which means that the functioning system of the cell could not be built up by small evolutionary steps in which the parts accumulated gradually.
For example, Behe considers the bacterial flagellum.
Scientific Suppression of the TruthMost recently of all William Dembski has written The Design Inference (Cambridge University Press). He points out that many well-known scientists must constantly suppress the suspicion that there is design (poiema) in the universe. For example, he quotes Richard Dawkins, an "arch-Darwinian" who says, "Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." And he quotes Francis Crick, the co-discoverer of DNA, who says, "Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved" (ibid. p. 21).
In other words, to use the words of the apostle Paul, the manifest truth of God's poiema - God's "designed things" - must be constantly suppressed, lest scientists be brought face to face with their Maker and have to glorify him as God and give him thanks as dependent creatures.
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/displays-of-god-remo...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_flagella
Endogenous, autogenous and direct filiation models[edit]These models argue that cilia developed from pre-existing components of the eukaryotic cytoskeleton (which has tubulin and dynein – also used for other functions) as an extension of the mitotic spindle apparatus. The connection can still be seen, first in the various early-branching single-celled eukaryotes that have a microtubule basal body, where microtubules on one end form a spindle-like cone around the nucleus, while microtubules on the other end point away from the cell and form the cilium. A further connection is that the centriole, involved in the formation of the mitotic spindle in many (but not all) eukaryotes, is homologous to the cilium, and in many cases is the basal body from which the cilium grows.
There is no such thing as irreducible complexity.