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How Should People of Faith - Or Atheists Who Want to Talk With Them - Think of Bank Crime?
Anthony Freda/Daniel Zollinger
What Would Jesus – Or the Rabbis of Old – Do?
Preface: If you are an atheist and believe that religion is crazy, please remember that some 85% of the American population identifies itself as Christian and millions more identify themselves as Jewish. Very few Americans are atheists. (And the majority don't trust atheists.) Therefore, knowing a few bible verses may be essential for atheists to be able to speak to people of faith.
The head of Goldman Sachs said he’s doing “God’s work” with his banking activities. The head of Barclays also told his congregation that banking as practiced by his company was not antithetical to Christian principles.
Are they right? Is big banking as practiced by the giant banks in harmony with Christian or traditional Jewish principles?
Do Justice
Initially, the Bible does not counsel us to ignore the breaking of laws by the the powerful.
In fact, the Bible mentions justice over 200 times — more than just about any other topic. The Bible asks us to do justice and to stand up to ANYONE — including the rich or powerful — who do injustice or oppress the people.
Indeed, one of the first things God asks of us is to do justice:
He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:8)
While many churches and synagogues have become obsessed with other issues, many have arguably ignored this most important of God’s demands of us. As pointed out by a leading Christian ministry, which rescues underage girls trapped as sex slaves in third world countries:
In Scripture there is a constant call to seek justice. Jesus got upset at the Pharisees because they neglected the weightier matters of the law, which He defined as justice and the love of God . . . Isaiah 58 complains about the fact that while the people of God are praying and praying and praying, they are not doing anything about the injustice.
Should Christians just pray for justice and leave the rest to God?
That’s not what the Bible asks us to do. Instead, Hebrews 11:33 tells us that we are God’s hands for dispensing justice, and God uses us to “administer justice.”
We have to “walk our talk” and put our prayers into action.
God demands that we do everything in our power to act as “God’s hands” in bringing justice. And as Saint Augustine reminds us, “Charity is no substitute for justice withheld.”
Indeed:
The Lord looked and was displeased that there was no justice. He saw that there was no one, He was appalled that there was no one to intervene. (Isaiah 59:15-16)
This is the only place in the Bible where the word “appalled” is used for the way God feels — in other words, the only thing which we know God is appalled by is if people are not doing justice.
There are hundreds of other references to justice in the Bible, including:
- Blessed are they who maintain justice . . . . (Psalm 106:3)
- This is what the LORD says: Maintain justice and do what is right . . . . (Isiah 56:1)
- This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. (Jeremiah 22:3,13-17)
- Follow justice and justice alone. (Deuteronomy 16:19, 20)
- For the LORD is righteous, he loves justice . . . . (Job 11:5,7)
- Learn to do right! Seek justice . . . . (Isaiah 1:17)
But shouldn’t we be deferential to the rich and powerful bankers?
No. Colossians 3:25 explains:
For the wrongdoer will have punishment for the wrong he has done, without respect for any man’s position.
So if the powerful players in the giant banks broke the laws, they must be held to account.
Fraud and Manipulation of Money
The big banks have engaged in systemic, continuous ongoing criminal fraud.
Allowing the banks to commit crime with impunity is not what Jesus would do. What would Jesus do? Turn over the tables of the money-changers. (economists agree.)
Moreover, the giant banks are manipulating every market in the world.
As Ron Paul notes, the Bible forbids altering the quality of money (which, at the time and place, was entirely in the form of coins):
Even the Bible is clear that altering the quality of money is an immoral act. We are instructed to follow the rules of “just weights and measures.” “You shall do no injustice in judgment, in measurement of length, weight, or volume. You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin” (Leviticus 19:35-36). “Diverse weights are an abomination to the LORD, and a false balance is not good” (Proverbs 20:23). The general principle can be summed as “You shall not steal.”
Proverbs 11:1 also provides:
Dishonest scales are an abomination to the LORD, but a just weight is His delight.
So to the extent that the giant banks have engaged in any dishonest acts or the manipulation of currencies, they are violating scripture.
Oppression of the Poor
Finally, the Bible condemns oppression of the poor for the benefit of the affluent:
He that oppresses the poor to increase his riches, and he that gives to the rich, shall surely come to want. (Proverbs 22:16)
To the extent that the giant banks have oppressed the poor to increase their riches, they are violating scripture.
Shouldn’t We Wait Until the Economy Recovers?
Apologists for Wall Street criminals argue that we should wait until the economy recovers before we prosecute the criminals.
But Ecclesiastes 8:11 notes:
When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, people’s hearts are filled with schemes to do wrong.
Nobel prize winning economists agree.
Important Postscript: Not all bankers are bad people. For example, many bankers at smaller banks and credit unions are good people who are trying to help their communities. Each must be judged by his own acts.
Moreover, corrupt government officials are half the problem. Indeed, the big banks wouldn’t have grown so large, or gotten away with so many bad acts, had corrupt officials in Washington not condoned their actions.
The Wall Street criminals themselves are not the real problem. The deeper problem is the malignant, symbiotic relationship between corrupt government officials and corrupt bankers.
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How do you "know" god exists.
I've read all 62 books of the bible (fucking waste of time that was) and many hundreds of books on history, theology, science, politics, psychology, cosmology and I know jack shit. Wouldn't have the faintest idea what caused the big bang, why we are here, what happens after we die (although I can have a pretty good guess - NOTHING).
How are you people so sure. Maybe you are god oir maybe you are just parroting lines and phrases that you have been programmed with from birth.
Thanks for the useless emotional response that says nothing, adds nothing.
When you fools finally repeal God let me know cuz I'm gonna kick your ass straight to hell.
Atheism is not a religion you fuckwit. Atheists believe that no "creator" exists as there is complete lack of evidence to prove otherwise. Why anyone would believe something without proof is a question for you and your fellow 85 percenters.
So you don't care if I beat the ever loving shit out of some random atheist because, well, the rules against violence are just made up control-grid incantations of a non-existant pretend god, flying spaghetti monster.
Might makes right, right? I can kick the ass of any 3 or 4 pencil necked atheist geeks so that makes me right.
Darwin rules you lose.
+1
And I absolutely HATE atheists that try to say altruism is what keeps society together. If I know anything about people, I know that TPTB couldn't fucking care less about the sheep they shear...
Your post is further proof of how angry and bitter atheists are. No wonder no one likes them.
I'm not sure how you incorrectly concluded I was an "85 percenter"
Maybe you should try to understand the difficulty of trying to prove a negative before you call people names.
"Atheism is not a religion you fuckwit."
It has the same elements and structure as any organized religion and, most ironically, a belief in something that is just as difficult to prove. Be aware that "no creator" is a symbol as good as "creator"... don't be fooled by the "no" particle.
By your (non-)logic, it is equally supportable to believe in unicorns as to not believe in them, as both such stands "have the same elements and structure as any organized religion".
Is there is a religion with a central belief in unicorns? If yes, yes; if not your post does not make any sense.
Yes. The church of modern Enviromentalism. They replaced the idea of God with Mother nature, where plants and animals are now held as sacred. This new belief system is reverting them from Monotheism back to Animism and Idol worship.
My guess is that it would be children that believe in unicorns.
Perhaps they should turn it into a religion.
No creator? That's funny! How did ANYTHING with a circulatory system exist before blood could coagulate?
please don't feed the animals or confuse them...
Wrong reply on my part.
"There ain't no rhyme for oranges!"
Dammit I'm mad spelled backwards is Dammit I'm mad.
Gosh, you know, I was wavering about whether or not to be an atheist, but you convinced me when you called that guy a "fuckwit". Hard to argue with that sort of deep thinking.
Forgive him(?), it's frustrating sometimes, this persuit of rationality among humans.
Is this is why Unitarian's burn a question mark on the lawn of atheists?
BI-WINNING!
Unitarians believe in at most one god.
@stevegee58
another term is practical atheist
When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, people’s hearts are filled with schemes to do wrong.
Amen!
Corzine anyone?
Mozilo, Fuld, Cassano, Lewis, Rubin, Weill, Dimon, Blankfein, Moynihan...
jon corzine. lloyd blanfien. hank paulson
Hmmm
Many here agree that we are in a situation from which there is only one exit, currency collapse.
I favor giving bankers some slack as they too must face a situation for which there is no fix, no course of action they could take to 'do right'.
I know this goes against the usual meme of 'hang 'em all, roll out the guillotines' so favored here but if the final resolution of or current system is truley collapse, what would you do as a banker?
Yes they profit and excessively. But they are just keeping us afloat, we may thank them when the outcome is here. We may long for a few more days of 'bankster crime'.
Yes! There are many calls for heads to roll, but WTF would any of these wankers do if placed at the head of the table? Turn off the spigot and let the riots begin? We didn't start the fire, it was always burnin' since the world was turnin'.
My question is: Will Bernanke get out before the final act is called? Answer is: Yes. And probably Yellen, too. Settle down and enjoy the ride.
"they are just keeping us afloat"
Dude, you better get out of Vegas while you still have one or two firing synapses.
Um, too late.
"but if the final resolution of or current system is truley collapse, what would you do as a banker?"
Bonuses all around, and lets blow this bubble up again!!!!
All time low for using the Bible as guidance... I just threw up in my mouth... One of the most violent books in the world (OT), all sanctioned by "god", yet merged with the duality of the NT... yea...
dude you are missing the point, just as much as the god squad
GW raises this as the most sensible way to get the issues across to the majority without passing any judgement on their belief system.
work to the mission
actually GW ... i thought you were goin' all bill riley on their asses.
You're missing half of the point.
"In fact, the Bible mentions justice over 200 times — more than just about any other topic. The Bible asks us to do justice and to stand up to ANYONE — including the rich or powerful — who do injustice or oppress the people."
"Fear not" or "Do not be afraid" is the champion for most repeated instruction in the Bible at 365 times . . .
http://www.ask.com/question/how-many-times-is-fear-not-used-in-the-bible
No, he's missing 85% of the point. I have used the bible in arguments with religious people on secular matters, its a winner for sure.
I've seen the '85%' figure before....it doesn't capture the country very well. I have no doubt that 85% self-identify as Christians, but it's pretty clear to me that they are cultural Christians and not religeous Christians. No judgement about it - everyone's spiritual jorney is a personal thing, but at least they are questioning...and hopefully seeking.
As one who has had his life transformed by Christ in the past year, I wish for you the same blessings I've found.
May the Lord bless you, my friend. Christ was the ransom paid for all. We owe him everything.
Sounds like His "sacrifice" was actually a manipulation to induce others to "owe him everything".
It usually doesn't work. The mind set of a cult is powerful... I have had my share as well, they shut down...
this cult mind set is not unique to christianity... more so, it is unique to our sinful natures... now knowing that you may be better to analyze the scripture on its own basis rather than the flawed interpretation of a looney...
In my opinion you would have been better off using the works of Hammurambi, as it predates the Bible. Funny how you reference a book, created by the same peoples who run the banks and the financial systems... hahahahaha...
That irony escapes most, PG. The Bible is first and foremost an instrument of control, imho. Further, it I is not the divine word of the Creator. But, that's just my opinion. The old testament speaks of God's wrath that will surely rain down on the non-compliant. That can only work for so long though, 'cos after a generation or two, the fear wears off. You know, people see obviously deceitful fucks prosper, and the propaganda just don't work anymore. IOW, the message has to morph into something new, or die.
Along comes the "new testament" (apparently the all-knowing Creator fucked up on the old one) and proclaims that all can share in the splendor of the Creators' presence simply by being baptised in the faith of the only-begotten-son (who was actually despised by TPTB of his time, and summarily crucified) with only one little catch; You have to die to see it. Does anyone actually know anyone else who has returned to tell (verify) of this amazing loophole in the circle of life (outside of hallucinogenic drug users)? No. You have to die to find out. I can't wait!
As far as the miracles and such of the new testament- This is where Goebbels et-al: got the idea of the "big lie". I mean shiaat! If you can believe that Moses got the ten commandments from an incendiary shrub he met while alone in the mountains- you'll believe most anything!
OK, I'm (currently) down 3 to 9 in votes. Would anybody care to rip my face off with insightful commentary? Maybe someone is out there just this moment, compiling chapter-and-verse quotes to make me look silly. You can parse that book if you want, but I take it for what it is.
Well, if you would like to look silly I will oblige you. But only because you asked so nicely.
You say"the old testamant speaks of God's wrath which will surely rain down on the non-compliant".
When the scripture actually says something like "the rain falls on the righteous and the unrighteous alike".
So, now you look silly. Happy now ;)
My intention is not to make you look silly but since you asked for it ... well, lets say it becomes an unintended consequence (and if my beleifs were more calvinistic a preordained consequnce ... but I digress). My true intention is to illustrate the presumptions and assumptions that people make about one another.
Now go forth and sin no more ;)
hard to argue with the book when one actually reads it.
Well, if you would like to look silly I will oblige you. But only because you asked so nicely.
You say"the old testamant speaks of God's wrath which will surely rain down on the non-compliant".
When the scripture actually says something like "the rain falls on the righteous and the unrighteous alike".
So, now you look silly. Happy now ;)
My intention is not to make you look silly but since you asked for it ... well, lets say it becomes an unintended consequence (and if my beleifs were more calvinistic a preordained consequnce ... but I digress). My true intention is to illustrate the presumptions and assumptions that people make about one another.
Now go forth and sin no more ;)
Thanks, Braverdave. But, go forth and slay the Philistines for their evil, wicked ways is more what I was referring to. Speaking of presumptions; It seems to me that the ultimate presumption of Christianity is that the bible, both testaments, is truly the transcribed word of God. Joshua fit the battle of Jericho with the jack-bone of a jaw-horse, and shit.
So, Moses really did encounter a burning, talking bush? The same text says he wandered aimlessly with his tribe in the desert for 40 years. Like Richard Pryor, I ask, "Hey Mo', how 'bout you lemme take a look at that map?" Yeah, I know they were "persecuted". But the world was a much bigger place back then. They could've migrated to Asia, like Jesus did for a time, BUT NO! They milled about in the deserts of Egypt 'cos they were determined to go back to Jerusalem, NO MATTER WHAT.
Question for you, Dave- If God made the whole world, why is Israel assumed to be the promised land? Does your bible actually say that somewhere? If so, I musta missed it.
1 John 4:1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Personally, I'm with the preordained consequence concept... :-)