Let's talk disintermediation

hedgeless_horseman's picture

My sense these days is that nobody except me and maybe a few others work on fridays in America, especially on a cold and icy day like today.  It is a slow day.  So...let's talk disintermediation. 


noun.     reduction in the use of intermediaries between producers and consumers, for example by investing directly in the securities market rather than through a bank.

Here is a recent illustration of the benefit of traditional intermediation, such as investing through a bank.  Some other traditional intermediaries are Catholic priests, corporate farms, and your local police.  Together, these represent four areas that I find particularly interesting when it comes to thinking about disintermediation:

  • Wealth/Capital (gold, bitchezzz!!!)
  • Relationship with a higher power (God, bitchezzz!!!)
  • Food (garden, bitchezzz!!!)
  • Security (guns, bitchezzz!!!)

Over the years, I have found many ways to practice disintermediation in each of these areas.  I have written articles and comments and posted photos on Zerohedge about some of these efforts.  Today, I invite you to discuss with me our successes, failures, and hopes in the comments section below.  I am thinking this will be similar to an open thread, except I would like us to keep to the topic of practicing disintermediation as much as possible.

Here are a few examples to get us started:

Health and education are two other areas that come to mind where disintermediation can serve us well.

This may be a disaster, but let's see how it goes...

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FreeNewEnergy's picture

Great thread. Thanks to everyone at ZH, especially HH.

Peace. Out from frozen upstate NY.

stiler's picture

The thing about God is that one doesn't need an intermediary except Jesus Christ.

joego1's picture

One thing I have been doing is ham radio. Believe it or not hams have set up a digital network of radio stations. Get rid of the middleman in your communications.

Raging Debate's picture

I love you HH and your claiming of a bit of independence by becoming self sustained. However, such preperations really come down to a couple of scenerios.

1) Nuclear war - If one survives initial blast and radiation weapons, long term food supplies are necessary. I have preperations for this contingency.

2) Our society has become bifurcated, rich and poor. A barbell economy. Outside of prepping for home invasion which is wise, what discussions are we having here on either:
a) attempting to break gravity
b) living very simply and cheaply

It is always wise to hope for the best and prepare for the worst. But what beyond that?

As for me I see it best to be involved at the local level to influence politics and make new friends. Never know if one of them can give me work if needs be.

I did like the commentator that wanted to discuss religion, our purpose in other words and learning. Now prepped I am wondering what to do to entertain myself, at least where our species could go.

Pinche Caballero's picture

"It is always wise to hope for the best and prepare for the worst. But what beyond that?"

Enjoy living your life.

A glass of wine and a good book, a nap in the afternoon, or a cold beer after a hard day of laboring in the sun, sore muscles and sore back. The smell of fresh cut hay, the fresh smell after a rain, the smell of salt-spray at the water's edge. How a forest smells. Time spent with a loved one, thinking back on cherished moments already long in the past, mending a broken relationship, scratching your dog behind the ear, a cat purring in your lap. A bite of something delicious to the taste buds, smoking a doobie once in ten years with a good friend and acting like a jackass, the smell and taste of tobacco. a good cup of coffee, a day hike on a crisp and clear day. Pondering on my life, pondering on my children's lives ahead. A hard work out. A journey over the horizon just to see what's there... The list of life's little pleasures is practically endless, and is best shared.

It really is that simple. Or maybe it's just that I am.

Professorlocknload's picture

++ Caballero. Sounds like how I have been living these past few years! No fear. Life is goooood.

Pinche Caballero's picture

Thanks much for letting me know I am not the only one, Prof.

RMolineaux's picture

Before you croak, settle most of your estate by gifts to your chosen heirs.  That way they will get docked less by the lawyers, courts, and governments involved in succession.

RMolineaux's picture

A suggestion to stockholders:  When you buy a stock insist that the broker deliver the certificate to you.  That way the broker cannot use your stock to lend to short sellers as they might if registered in street name.

Papasmurf's picture

Have you done that?  If so, explain exacty what you did.

RMolineaux's picture

All you have to do is to tell your broker that you demand a certificate.  He won't like it, but he has to comply.  It may take a couple of weeks.  When you receive your certificate, that item will disappear from your brokers statement and you will be holding a certificate that you can endorse and surrender if you have to sell the stock.  Note that this can only be done with cash-only accounts, not margin.

janus's picture

no time to post...off to fetch some fiat; but i wanted to say something about disintermediation; and so i will ask Kipling to do the saying for me:


IF you can keep your head when all about you 
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools: 

If you can make one heap of all your winnings 
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!



now that's wisdom...read, digest and grow fat on it, ZHealots.





hopefulbutwary's picture

Akarc, for what it is worth, Gotoma the Buddha is said to have taught (boiled down to a nutshell) that there is no personal soul, and that everything changes.

hopefulbutwary's picture

Akarc, for what it is worth, Gotoma the Buddha is said to have taught (boiled down to a nutshell) that there is no personal soul, and that everything changes.

hopefulbutwary's picture

Akarc, for what it is worth, Gotoma the Buddha is said to have taught (boiled down to a nutshell) that there is no personal soul, and that everything changes.

hopefulbutwary's picture

Alaric, for what it is worth, Gotoma the Buddha is said to have taught (boiled down to a nutshell) that there is no personal soul, and that everything changes.

akarc's picture

All things are interconnected therefor all things are one and all things breathe as the tides and the seasons brings change thus into life and out of life the electrical energy of our beings assimilated like a pebble in the pond we are seen we are not seen yet our having been here have consequences.

Appears your post was reincarnated <G>

my apologies instead of writing

"Kill a mans soul and and the rest means nothing."

I should have written "kill the soul and the rest means nothing".

But then we would have to define the soul <G>.


Manipuflation's picture

On the top fringe of the Zerohedge screen there are three people that I will read or view.  WB7, Cognitive Dissonance and Hedgeless Horseman.  Bruce Krasting?  I have heard it all before.  I want to read the comments on HH's post but I have to run as I have company coming over and they will want a cocktail.  I have noticed that HH's post is over on the right now.  Let's keep this thread going.  I want to hear what others have to say.

thewayitis's picture


  As Celente would say "Guns Gold and a get-away plan).  Gold (physical) Bitchezzz I much agree with ....



akarc's picture

HH your goal with the article was admirable and I scrolled at least the first page of comments looking to learn something. Unfortunately, yet not necessarily surprising, was much of the thread deteriorated into a discussion of which gun was better to kill some one with.

Would have loved to have seen more discussion re:

  • Relationship with a higher power (God, bitchezzz!!!)

Kill a mans soul and and the rest means nothing.

Soul pollution has brought us to where we are now. Maybe it is age that has had me questioning violent times of my  past and the need for them. And I still see the existence of the necessity. However if I am to be violent and possibly die as a result I would like to think it would be meaningful. That,  I understand is a discussion in and of itself.

Satoshi mentioned in a commet or two, what is the goal, what is the end result? I choose not to go to my end knowing that I spent my time here learning only how to exist.  I will  not run into the woods and hide until they come find me. They know where I am now. Let them come now. The relevance of my death is  only important to me and my higher power.  He/she/it did not save me from the crap shoot to turn my back on the evils that threaten us all.

That said. I do have a little piece of nowhere. And I feel quite certain that the big "They" already know where it is. Google earth pales in comparison to what the big "they" probably have.

hedgeless_horseman's picture



Do you pray and/or meditate on a daily basis? To me, that is the key to having a direct, disintermediated, relationship with your higher power.

akarc's picture

HH yes I do meditate at least an hour, often times more each morning. If I have pressing engagements in the am I try to insure that I am able to get up in time to still have that time. It took my lady awhile to get it, i.e. do not bother me during that time, but she now respects it.  Often times that time is focused on gratitude. Often times self-reflection, e.g. where am I and where am I going. And more often than not just blankly staring at the trees and birds and allowing what ever enters to enter w/o resistance.

I used to spend hours on my knees praying daily. Besides creating discipline, which I have little of, it taught me much.  Until finally my prayers were whittled down to a simple, thy will be done and allow me the courage to face and accept it.

Now i wish I could say the results of such have resulted in my becoming a highly evolved spiritual being. But I would be lying. I would like to think that I am now a better person than I was. But even that may depend on the day of the week.

I do agree, I never made much progress in these areas when relying on intermediaries to dictate or judge my progress. Though were it not for intermediaries I don't know that I would ever headed down any number of paths. 

Miffed Microbiologist's picture

A dear friend recommended to me to " bookend" my day with meditation. I start the day with a brief meditation and then look at the day objectively. See the difficulties that will occur and the problem people that will disrupt your work. Then set an intention how you plan to deal with them in a calm manner.

At the end of the day review what has occurred without judgement. Celebrate the victories and let the failures go. Then, before sleep, clear your mind and meditate again to set the stage for a restful, restorative sleep. I have done this for many years and it has been immensely helpful for me to endure a life with many stressful attributes.


akarc's picture

Good protocol miffed. I only wish.........<G>

Nights have always been an enemy. To think at all at night can pretty much guarntee I won't sleep. Much anyway. I must fall into the bed exhausted. I read somewhere doing math problems at night occupied the part of the brain that dept you awake. My luck, lol.

Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Nights have always been a problem for me as well. My mind,unfortunately, explodes in activity at that time. Too much ZH at that time can only add to it. What helps me is daily power yoga in 95 deg heat to relieve the tension from the day. Close to bedtime I take a tincture of valerian, Passion flower, Skullcap, Wood Betony, peppermint and Chamomile an herbalist friend made for me. This really takes the edge off so I can calm down, focus and meditate. Right before bed I read something soothing and spiritual sometimes CS Lewis or What the Buddha Taught. If all that fails, there is always sex and Mr Miffed seems to be happy to oblige me!


akarc's picture

"valerian, Passion flower, Skullcap, Wood Betony, peppermint and Chamomile an herbalist friend made for me."

tried valerian, kava kava, peppermint, lavender, Chamomile and others. Everything seems to work for a brief time. I seem to develop toleances fairly quickly (if you don't include people). Which is why I stay away from the prescribed alternatives.

Reading anything that interest me insures I will be up all night.

Of late I build houses and boats in my head. 

No, no, no to reading ZH before bed.

My hat is off to Mr. Miffed. A gentleman indeed.

hedgeless_horseman's picture



I would like to think the priestly class is to play a support role for the church, not an intermediary role for God. Why would God need an intermediary?

akarc's picture

I suspect that many would like to believe that. They scare me. Though would not argue the divinity within some individuals. The ones who understand the yin and yang of things.

akarc's picture

HH, not one that is much for the priestly class of any organization as I have found the purpose of most is to perpetuate the organization. I have known ministers who have caved to the church elders in order to keep their jobs, etc.

My experience anyway has been that HP has placed many intermediaries in my life if only for a brief moment.  My problem is difficulty in recognizing the importance of said persons w/o 20/20 hindsight occuring oh maybe about 5 years down the road when circumstances and events light a bulb that goes, oh so thats why they where there then.

I was once told that praying is good, but only if one takes time to listen. And even then take care not confuse Gods voice with our own.

Then again, it works so many different ways for so many different persons. Thus the saying, "whatever works."

I only know one thing fer sure, miracles happen. <G>



Manipuflation's picture

"thread deteriorated into a discussion of which gun was better to kill some one with."

It was not what I had in mind for discussion but I have no problem with it.  I seriously doubt that any ZHer really wants to kill someone anyway.  I have killed a lot of critters in my day but never another human being and have no wish to do so. 

On the other hand, trying to reason with some people might make you want to reach for your gun.  I look at my gun collection and wonder why I have all that I do.  I did not put my money in the stock market and there are guns everywhere around here.  Even the vehicles I drive have guns in them and they are unpapered.  I know all about ammo... it's heavy.

I like my silver.  Keep Calm and Slave On.  

Pinche Caballero's picture

HH, this has been a great brainstorming exercise that has brought to light many useful ideas. I have spent the better part of last night turning these things over in my mind. Much of it I agreed with, some of it, not so much. I think many ZHer's have already decided on an outline for determining a way ahead in the event of whatever scenario taking place.

The FM 7-8, for those who bothered to look it up, may not be the best investment in time and resources. A better source of info may be the U.S. Army Ranger Handbook. It highlights several key points, for instance, the importance of planning, the principles of patrolling, how to conduct a raid, ambush, recon, etc., as well as briefly touching on basic survival skills. My interest is not to engage in offensive action, but to avoid it as used by others against me. After 15 years at war fighting terrorists, lots of Muricans
At home now have mad fighting skills.

Like with the debate about which means for self-defense are best for which types of situations, I feel everything will depend on one's own personal experiences, circumstances in life, ability, comfort level, fitness level, and so forth.

So, setting myself up for a certain amount of criticism from the peanut gallery on an already dead post, here goes:

In the event of wide-spread economic upheaval, a key concern will be to what degree? I will presume most on ZH have already taken steps to minimize the impact to themselves financially in a worst-case scenario. For provisioning purposes, as someone previously noted, he thought most ZHer's were day-traders but it turns out most are really farmers!

Some highly probable/predictable outcomes in the event of economic collapse are 1. law enforcement agents will simply be overwhelmed with maintaining order, and 2. the FSA will immediately turn into locusts and destroy everything in their path (think Hurricane Katrina). Also, don't discount a possible other likely event, 3. .gov temporarily shutting down the Internet ostensibly in the interests of "national security" (why I don't BTC) but more so to control the official story line and prevent capital flight throughout the digital world until the rape of personal wealth is complete.

Things could be vastly different on the other side of these three events simultaneously taking place. Once the dust settles, the masses will adjust to the new rules dictated by TPTB and sort themselves out. IMO, what is crucial will be getting one's self and loved ones through to the other side as intact as possible.

Anyone attempting to stand up to either LEA or FSA in such circumstances is at risk of needlessly throwing their own life away. Both sides may be eyeing your meager stores with torches and pitchforks in hand. Avoiding finding one's self in such situations will require planning, mobility, and a safe destination to move to safely.

A flight to safety by the masses usually ends up in gridlock and depletion of resources along the route, for instance, evacuation prior to a hurricane. Also, most natural or made disasters generally have a regional effect for which outside resources can be mobilized during relief efforts. In the event of widespread financial collapse, there may be no place for the masses to move to and no resources available for relief efforts to be undertaken. Hence, a breakdown in society materializes quickly for so many sheeple.

Some of us are able to provide a relatively safe place for others to move to where provisions are already on hand, others may need to determine where their safe place is and be prepared in advance for the journey, whether by foot, horseback, ATV or off-road capable vehicle if necessary. Be prepared to leave things of sentimental value behind, or place them in secure storage well in advance of needing to.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned much here is use of boats and waterways for both a form of transport and avoidance of LEA/FSA. Although temporarily living on a pontoon boat during a time of upheaval may feel less secure because it is easily observed on open water, it also places an effective barrier between it's physical location and roving bands of thugs on shore away from population centers. Besides, there are many even more remote locations accessible only by boat along shorelines, even farther off the beaten track and away from urban areas where the LEA/FSA threat may be the highest. Very few will have the wherewithal to walk-in to your secluded spot. For many who can't afford a 2nd safe place of their own, or don't know anyone with whom they can ride out the storm if necessary, might consider having a well-provisioned boat on a nearby lake or waterway or one ready to be quickly trailered and launched at a location only a short distance away. Anything from a 16' John boat laden with camp gear or a live-aboard well stocked can offer a form of refuge, much like the ark did Noah and his Family. Deer and other game harvested along the shoreline and/or fishing tackle would ensure a readily available source of protein, container gardening could provide some fresh greens, and a filtering system won't leave you thirsty. I think much of the same applies on lakes or the inland waterways, on which a watercraft can literally move about much of the U.S. Regardless, from nearly any point, you would always be within sight of shore (navigational skills/needs minimal), relatively safe, with everything accessible to you by foot, bicycle, or motorcycle/ATV depending on your means and size of boat.

Waterways/bodies of water and their role in the movement of people and goods over them throughout the ages has largely been forgotten, as well as the fact that many cities, towns, and communities of the world are located on a waterway due to practical use. It wouldn't be at all like living on a sailboat crossing the pacific. It would be more like living on the fringe of society, like some creative thinker who posts on ZH would do.

Pinche Caballero's picture

I have no freakin' clue how this just ended up here, or how to fix it. Apologies...

Not Goldman Sachs's picture

NSA knows where you are. Drones will neutralize ANY of your self  defense plans. Job #1 is to get control of drones when TSHTF. Good Luck with that.

MsCreant's picture

Live near work, work out of your home.

Walking is healthier and makes my car insurance very low. Low wear and tear on car (don't drive much). 

joego1's picture

The best use of a weapon is to remove the idea of the use of force. In this respect a 220 lb man and a 90 year old woman are equals if the woman has a gun. Its much harder to build local community but this what we all need to do to get to a better world. We need to all unite at the local level and slay the idea of a global economy.

whoisjohngalt11's picture

THIS .... is more realistic. Build an infrastructure of a local community 

Rusty Diggins's picture

So something no one has mentioned is disconnecting from the utilities. PV is down to a buck a watt.  When I put my system up a decade ago it was closer to $7 a watt.  Your biggest expense is in batteries (lead $1+ per pound).  The inverters and charge controllers just get better and cheaper.  1kw of pv will run a sears refridgerator, computers, lights, stereo, radio etc.  As supply lines fade having power can be a life saver.  The only precaution would be the ability to blackout your windows.

I have had two hives of bees that I do nothing to for the past 8 years.  I am in the high desert and they do not have an easy life, flowers only appear in the last part of the summer.  They mostly forage on juniper and pinion sap.  Dark honey full of flavor.  The complete lack of agriculture has shielded them from any ill affects.

Angus McHugepenis's picture


You write too few articles. Question: Is this "disintermediation" thing a play on Reggie Middletons earlier article? Just curious.

Here's a brief list of my own "disintermediation"...

- Banks: Haven't even walked into one since the year 2002. All dealings with any banks started ending before that.

- Fiat Paper: Immediately gets converted to something useful. I am stunned by the fact that I can hand over this paper junk to somebody else and get a welding machine, generators, various tools, auto parts, and silver. And FOOD from the wholesalers! (I don't have the ability to grow my own at this point).

- Land: I co-own 150 acres of remote Rocky Mountain property that is an actual working gold claim. My total cost was a mere $2,000, which I traded for in silver maples when they were around $32/oz. Can't buy a house or that much land anywhere for that price (except Detroit?) unless it's very remote.

- Ownership: Nothing is in my name, therefore it can never be stolen from me. My vehicle is in a company name and I don't own the company. My gold claim is with a friend who already owned it, I simply bought into it and leave it to him to do the incredibly minimal paperwork.

These are only a few examples. Sure there are risks the way I operate, but I would rather trust people I know than puting blind faith and trust into a bank or other .gov sactioned or "licensed" entity with my own name.

There are now only two things .gov thugs could possibly take from me. My time (jail) or my life. And I will never pay them in their worthless paper fiat for either.

Disintermediation, BitCheZ!

disabledvet's picture

I think what would really scare the bejesus out of the "folks running things" is for all of us to show up in Togas and demand to start arguing with anyone who appears to be either a: important or b: protecting someone important. Instead of demanding answers we'll demand equally forceful rhetoric from the opposition "while not allowing for a non response response."

At some point they'll just give you the gun and the badge and say "it's all yours dude."

"Bank Examiner" sounds like a good start.

satoshi101's picture

Range and ABC's - Distance, and Airway, Breathing, and Circulation. You must know the human body, know to block the airway, stop the breathing, terminate the circulation, anytime any place any range.

It's all about range folk you must master the RANGE, distance from you to your opponents.

Up close you have to know about knives and wrestling, not touching then boxing, or knives or any fucking instrument for slashing, or destroying human flesh

5-15 feet you have to know about pistols, 45 acp is the best COLT

15-50 feet a mossberg pump is best with loaded 1/2 with OO, and slugs on the stock to reach out to 100 feet as needed

50 feet to 200 yards a rifle, ... preferrrable an M1-Garand, the rounds 30.06 cartridge can drop an engine block, and black-tip armor piercing is still legal to find,....

200 yards 1o 2000 yards a Barret 50 CAL auto or bolt is fine to take out power plants or command and control


Out past 2000 yards, you need to work with mortars and high explosives and remote devices.

It's all about KNOWING YOUR RANGE, and using right tools at the range.

There is wresting range, boxing range, kicking range, spear range.


Remember the secret of KNIFE FIGHTING is the other GUY doesn't see YOUR knife until he see's his blood on your knife, and then he only has 3 seconds before collapse.


So fucking WHAT, killing men is easy, but what is your fucking plan?

satoshi101's picture

What is the point of this article?

It reads like survival-101?


What I see is survivalist getting ther 'KIT' bag all setup and that's fine, and then its back to the TV and wait.

There needs to be more to this mindset than survivalism.

I see no mention of goals, or plans.

Mostly its just MORE fucking CONSUMPTION, just telling folks to run out and BUY this and that,

Yes, by all means TRAIN, but training starts when your 2 years old, and you peak at 18 years, and then try to keep what you had until your 80 years of age. But if you didnt' train like hell as a  teenager, your always going to be pussy when you get older.

Tyson's right, everybody has a plan until they get bitch slapped, the difference between a man and pussy, is the man doesn't freeze when bitch slapped the pussy does.

The trouble is like FIGHT-CLUB, until you folks actually get out and the street and knocking each other teeth out you ain't training.


but still I ask what is the fucking goal? The last man standing gets what the bill? or scurvy? or filthy pussy?

chindit13's picture

I can almost hear some economist, or some politician, saying, "If we all just prepped, we'd get this economy moving again".

It's a kind of tautology.

satoshi101's picture

I hear you chindit, kid you not your like a voice of reason in the ZH wilderness.

If you look at the entire survivalist narrative, or prepping its go out and buy shit.

But see that is what caused the problem.


Here's the deal, you want to learn survival, go to BORNEO, or northern burma with just a knife and your underwear and live for a month, and you will come out a man.

You don't have to BUY anything.

CHINDIT is right, I suspect he like me, has been there, if you can't walk into the jungle, I mean the real jungle, with cobras and wild boars the size of horses and tons of this that make "AVATAR" look like pussy shit.

Go do that, ... go live in the real fucking jungle, for a month, with nothing but a K-BAR (its a knife), and if you survive, then you will know that you don't need to BUY shit to be a man.

Jaspergers's picture

My goal is to protect my family.

As for peaking when you're 18, where I train, those in their teens and twenties cant keep up with those in their 30s, and 40s in any way -endurance, technique, experience, strength, determination and of course fighting- ok they have fewer injuries and more boners. And unless you are raised by yamabushi in the mountains you won't have the mindset to BEGIN internal work until age 30 (+/-) and that's what takes over from your 50s onward. 

Didn't downvote and don't disagree with some of the rest you said...

satoshi101's picture

I will try to start slow I see this shit all the time.

Over here in CHINA we start teaching children 'chinese boxing' when their 6 months old, and many occasion when we get guys from the west over here the first thing we do is match them up with an 8 year old kid, usually with a weapon, like a pool cue.

The white-guy, first doesn't want to 'hurt' the kid, but later finds that he can't even defend himself let alone hurt the kid.

How can this be? Well the white guy usually about 24, might have started training at 16 or 12, but he didn't start training at 6 months.


Then you take a couch potatoe and start training him when he's 25, and when he's 30 what do you have? Not much really.

Cardiovascular don't mean shit.

It's all about first-strike kills, any fight that goes more than a second is all for show.


I was only talking about PEAK strength,

In the real GONG-FU we say a man doesn't even begin 'school' until he's 40, his mind isn't ready, but that's a separate issue, I'm talking more about 'strength' fighting when young, sure as shit when old you got to use your brain.


This is why old women in their 70's can kick ass on guys in their 20's, the old woman has moves that the young guy can't even fathom.

But all things equal, ... I think if your going to TALK training, it has be started DAMN early, and it has to be 8+ hours a day everyday forever, and the western lifestyle doesn't train that way,

Anyways the SUBJECT was TRAINING and I was simply trying to explain rural asian training.


What does it mean to train a 6 month old baby? Well as soon as he can crawl or stand they put him against the wall and have him hold 'postures' classic to GONG-FU, when the kid is 2 years old he learns to link the postures in motion, by 5 the kid by instinct can fight.  By 8 years they're tought little bastards. But by 18, if all they have is MUSCLE then they decline, ... that's when they have to enter the next 'gates'.

The trouble with most western training in commercial schools is they never get past the level of 3 year old in rural asia.