What's REALLY Going On In Odessa, Ukraine

George Washington's picture

Ukrainian War Crimes Whitewashed by Western Press

After more than 30 people died in a fire in the Ukrainian seaside resort town of Odessa, most of the Western press pretended that no one knows what happened or whose fault it was. For example, see these stories from the  Guardian and BBC.

But USA Today reports:

Witnesses and journalists reported that as the building burned with people inside, a crowd shouted, “Glory to Ukraine!” and “Death to enemies!” [These are neo-Nazi slogans.]




[T]he Associated Press reported that the Russian sympathizers took refuge in the trade union hall on Kulikovo Field Square after government supporters rousted their encampment outside and then burned their tents. Police said the building was set on fire with Molotov cocktails.

At 5 seconds into this 15-second video, you can see a Molotov cocktail being thrown at the building in which the Russian sympathizers:


Former Associated Press and Newsweek reporter Robert Parry points out how bad New York Times coverage of the Odessa attack has been:

On Saturday, for instance, the dominant story from Ukraine was the killing of more than 30 ethnic Russian protesters by fire and smoke inhalation in Ukraine’s southern port city of Odessa. They had taken refuge in a union building after a clash with a pro-Kiev mob which reportedly included right-wing thugs.


Even the neocon-dominated Washington Post led its Saturday editions with the story of “Dozens killed in Ukraine fighting” and described the fatal incident this way: “Friday evening, a pro-Ukrainian mob attacked a camp where the pro-Russian supporters had pitched tents, forcing them to flee to a nearby government building, a witness said. The mob then threw gasoline bombs into the building. Police said 31 people were killed when they choked on smoke or jumped out of windows.


“Asked who had thrown the Molotov cocktails, pro-Ukrainian activist Diana Berg said, ‘Our people – but now they are helping them [the survivors] escape the building.’” [Here's the Post story.]


By contrast, here is how the New York Times reported the event in its Saturday editions as part of a story by C.J. Chivers and Noah Sneider focused on the successes of the pro-coup armed forces in overrunning some eastern Ukrainian rebel positions.


“Violence also erupted Friday in the previously calmer port city of Odessa, on the Black Sea, where dozens of people died in a fire related to clashes that broke out between protesters holding a march for Ukrainian unity and pro-Russian activists. The fighting itself left four dead and 12 wounded, Ukraine’s Interior Ministry said. Ukrainian and Russian news media showed images of buildings and debris burning, fire bombs being thrown and men armed with pistols.”


Note how the Times evades placing any responsibility on the pro-coup mob for trying to burn the “pro-Russian activists” out of a building, an act that resulted in the highest single-day death toll since the actual coup which left more than 80 people dead from Feb. 20-22. From reading the Times, you wouldn’t know who had died in the building and who had set the fire.

Billmon comments:

Not even “atrocities were commited,” just a fire “related” to clashes that “broke out.” Immaculate conception theory of war crimes.

Postscript: While the Western press tries to paint the percentage of neo Nazis within the new Ukrainian government as small, the leader of the “protests” which ousted the previous president of Ukraine is a neo Nazi and follower of WWII Nazi sympathizer Stepan Bandera, and neo Nazis are largely in control of the new government.

Whatever You Think of Putin, You Should Understand How Russia Thinks

Even if you think Putin is a tyrant with ambitions to build an imperial Russia, you can’t understand the war in Ukraine unless you understand how Russians think.

20 million Russians died fighting the Nazis in World War II.

Neo Nazis just killed at least 42 Russians when they firebombed a building in Odessa, Ukraine that the Russians had taken shelter in.

Agence France-Presse reports:

Russian official rhetoric has increasingly compared events in Ukraine to the darkest crimes of Nazi Germany, ahead of next week’s anniversary of Soviet victory in World War II.




The fire in the southern Ukrainian city of Odessa that claimed at least 42 lives on Friday has been swiftly dubbed a new “reprisal raid” and even the “new Khatyn,” a reference to the Belarussian village where 149 residents were burned alive by the Nazis in 1943.




The Khatyn massacre went down in Russian history books as one of the Nazis’ most brutal “reprisal raids,” a term the Kremlin has now adopted to describe the offensive Kiev authorities have launched against pro-Moscow rebels in the flashpoint town of Slavyansk.




“What has happened, especially in the Trade Unions House, brings to mind the crimes of the Nazis during World War II,” pro-Kremlin lawmaker Leonid Slutsky told reporters in Moscow, referring to the Odessa fire.


“These are the new Khatyn and Auschwitz.”


A senior official in the pro-Kremlin government of Crimea, Ukraine’s peninsula taken over by Russia in March, chimed in.


“The last time people were burned alive in Ukraine was by the Nazis during the Great Patriotic War,” Rustam Temirgaliyev said on Facebook, referring to the Russian name for World War II.




Russia’s losses and sacrifice during World War II remain a hugely sensitive subject in the country ….

To the extent that the U.S. and Nato are backing the right-wing Ukrainians, we are creating conditions that the Russian leadership – rightly or wrongly – considers an existential threat.

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PTR's picture

Worth stating, never forget this: 

Battleground Ukraine: A Comprehensive Summary (From A Russian Perspective)



messystateofaffairs's picture

Can anyone throw some light on the dynamics of neo-Nazi and Zionist involment in the coup. I know both groups hold egalitarian views and are willing to ruthlessly prosecute them but these two groups should also be opposed. If one is using the other to achieve their agenda that would be the Zionists. Is there manipulation or is it just a clusterfuck.

sondernauch's picture

This is kinda funny. Thanks to alternative media, more Americans know more facts than the RedTeam-BlueTeam apparachiks. Makes it hard for them to spin events in their favor.

dexter_morgan's picture

LOL - the neo-con trolls are out in earnest today!

novictim's picture

Take a moment now and reflect on what Princess Putin might have done other than military action:

1) Turned off gas to Europe and Ukraine

2) Cancelled Ukrainian visas to visit Russia

3) Denied Ukrainian imports into Russia

4) Refused to pay for renting Sevastapol Naval Base.


Does any of this seem like "little stuff" to you people?  

Well, it isn't.  And it would have been very effective (and legal) and honorable.  Ukraine's Elections in May 25th would certainly have reflected a realpolitik business concern and would have weighed heavily in favor of proRussian/pro-trade parties.  

Now reflect on where Ukraine and Russia are now and how their relationship will play out for YEARS to come.  Tragic.  Stupid.  Pointless.  

Is Putin a smart or good leader?  A year or two from now, what will you all be saying?  20 years?  Will Ukrainians ever forget this?  Will all the other countries now looking askance at Russia forget this?

Quinvarius's picture

So far Obama's team consists of Al Queda and Nazi's.  This is what you get when you elect a fukn moron with no understanding of geopolitics or history.

GoldSilverDoc's picture

Look up the "Khatyn" massacre.


Then go look up the "Katyn" massacre.


In the Khatyn massacre, 149 people were killed by Nazis.

In the Katyn massacre, 22,000 Polish officers were killed by the NKVD (Russians).


So which is worse? Neither. both are examples of the best a State has to offer.



Bioscale's picture

War is the health of the state.

But as expected most people are confused and replace the meaning of the word state with "we the people". Not the power that be.

Bemused Observer's picture

The next time someone from the IMF pays a visit, the mob should beat them senseless, and stuff every orifice of their body with Euro's...

That image would be the most accurate depiction of the reasons all this shit is happening.

Just keeping it real.

Bugsquasher's picture

What we have is one criminal organization fighting another criminal organization for control. To think that Putin and his the thugs are any less a bunch of fascists than the Ukrainian thugs are is a fallacy as well.  The Russians might be a little more sophisticated in the manifestation of their fascist behavior than the Ukrainians but it's a difference of little distinction.

Nobody dares ask the question; Just what was it that drives the Ukrainian hatered of the Russians?  Instead of asking us to understand how the Russians think maybe we should try to understand what it does to a people to see nearly 5 million of ther family members deliberately starved to death.  Maybe we should conceive that this leaves deep scars and breeds the trap of believing the enemy of my enemy is my friend. 

The unwritten rule for Europe since the end of WW II has been that the era of changing national borders via military force is over.  That precedent has held until Putin and his neo-Tsarist ambitions came along.

Yes some 12 million Russians died in the fight against the Nazis and their various allies.  But we also need to understand that that was a tragedy in part of their own making.  Maybe if Stalin and Molatov hadn't been so damned anxious to make deals with the Germans and to seize eastern Poland, the independent Baltic states and large swaths of Finland it might have been a different story.

The story we often hear is that Putin and his gang think that Russia was treated "unfairly" in the collapse of the Soviet Union.  Really? Really?  What a bad distasteful joke piled on top of an outright and naked lie.

Truth is the Russian communists were scared shitless that the Western powers were going to hold them and communism itself accountable for their 70 some years of tyranny and criminality.  But it never happened, Bush 41 treated them with kid gloves. (Gorbachev's own transcripts from them Malta summit show this.)

After WW II we tried and executed the Nazis for their crimes against humanity.  But we conveniently ignore that that horrible war started with a deal between the communist and the Nazis.

Maybe some one can tell us how many communists went to the gallows for the decades of throwing their own people into the Gulag.  Just where were the individuals and communism held accountable for the slaughter of the Polish Officer Corp in the forest of Western Belorussia or the 60,000 Polish civilians who were marched into the labor camps in 1940 never to return?  So tell us who was held accountable for the slaughter in Hungary in 1956 and in Czechoslovakia in 1968.  How many Eastern Europeans disappeared into unmarked graves during the neay 50 years of Russian military occupation?

The Russians didn't get treated "unfairly" they got handed a "get out of jail free card".

the phantom's picture

You do understand that most Ukrainians just want to live in peace, right?  They don't hate Russians or else we would see a popular revolution with ordinary people (not CIA, Svoboda neo-nazi, Blackwater mercs) take to the streets.  Instead you have a EU/Western puppet gov't given marching orders by the IMF to take control or "no money". 

Spare us your history lesson.  If you care so much about history, you should know that Russians view the Communist period as a black mark in their history.  If it's reparations you seek, and you live in America, then start by giving the American Indians their land back, and also the blacks 40 acres and a mule for slavery.

Bugsquasher's picture

So then you make me wonder; are the cubicles in the basement of the FSB and RT headquarters any different than the ones in the basement at the EOB or the NSA? 

Of course I understand that the ordinary citizens on BOTH side just want to live in peace and raise their families.  But seldom do these "silent majorities" play a major role in the currents of history, at least not until they are forceibly conscriped into armies to fight "the other guys".

Please spare us the Kremlin propaganda and revisionist history.  If the Russians so consider the communist period such a "black mark" why do so many former KGB and party aperatcheks hold positions of power?  Why do journalists who dare question then end up in jail, dead or simply disappear?  Why do statues of Lenin and Stalin dot the landscape? Why does a military honor guard still stand at the enterance to Lenin's tomb?  Why is the tomb even still there? 

The communist period was just a different form of Russian imperialism with Tsar and Dukes replaced with Commisars and political officers.  Putin is just trying to do the same thing with his own batch of oligarchs armed with 21st century propaganda and technology.

the phantom's picture

Not revisionist at all.  Communism was a black mark... but it was still Russian.  They are a very proud people. If you don't understand that then you don't understand the Russian mentality.

What you see dotting the landscape are Orthodox churches, which was supressed during Communism... you need to have your eyes checked, or go visit Russia.

Re: oligarchs.  So you're implying that the US is not an oligarchy? lol  Next you are going to say we just want to promote "freedom"... noting to do with the military-industrial complex or war economy. 

forwardho's picture

Great missive on Russia.

Lets us now hear about the other "criminal organization"

Bugsquasher's picture

The Ukrainians,like many Eastern European populations, Poles Romanians, Slovaks, have to one degree or another frequently been used as political footballs in the geo-political games of oppression and conflict between there larger more powerful neighbors.  Not only does this not create a great deal of polital sofistication but often paranoia, an attitude of revenge and the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" syndrome sets in.  This becomes an open door to what ever form of tyrant is willing to seize it and manipulate those feeling (whethe they be justified or not) to their own advantage.

There you have the present day Ukrainians with there long simmering resentments against the Russians, the Serbs in the 1990 caught between various Muslim factions and the Western powers in the 1990, the Slovaks of the late '30s turning to the Germans caught between the Poles and the Hungarians both slicing off pieces of territory (as well as ages old oppression by the Hungarians.)  The Romanians caught between a collapsing Ottoman Empire and an expansionist Russian one.  The Poles trapped in a three way tug of war between Russia, Prussia and the Austro-Hungarians.

It's a story oft repeated.  The parameters of the love/hate relationships, revenge and violence don't really change, just the name tags the partisipants are wearing and the date on the calander.

russwinter's picture

Ukraine Erupts, Economic War to Escalte, Odessa becomes hot spot.



Helg Saracen's picture

Odessa is a point of no return, this is the start of a full-scale civil war.

Mountainview's picture

Do you remember Sarajevo, do you remember Bosnia...? To avoid the drama take the Bosnian constitution and translate it in Ukarainian/Russian.

litemine's picture

99.9% of Americans, suffers from the delusion which some writers have labeled “American Exceptionalism”, but which I prefer to call the “Goodness Delusion”. I define a delusion as a rigidly held belief not based on evidence or facts. The “Goodness Delusion” of most Americans consists of the deeply-held and unquestioned belief that: (1) America’s motives are always good and benign; (2) America is inherently morally superior to the rest of the world; and from those first two: (3) America has the moral authority - and even the obligation – to enlighten and improve the world by spreading America’s culture and political, legal and financial systems to the rest of the world, using force if needed.


Azannoth's picture

Whats really amazin is that this building did not collapse(unlike another modern skyscraper previously known as WTC #7 did), "due to office fires".

JRobby's picture

Really hot burning office fires. Metal fatigue, mangenese, chinch bugs.


Alot of people do even know what any of that stuff is (Carl Spackler)

moneybots's picture

"Whats really amazin is that this building did not collapse(unlike another modern skyscraper previously known as WTC #7 did), "due to office fires"."


A different type of construction and not anything close to being 47 stories tall.

raeb's picture

A different type of construction and not anything close to being 47 stories tall.



and no thermite

dexter_morgan's picture

Always a first time for everything - like a skyscraper collapsing perfectly in it's foot frint from a fire.

falak pema's picture

 GW : what happened to that photo of girls with the nazi shirt making molotov cocktails in Odessa? 

Did you auto censure that.. If so,  why?

George Washington's picture

Yes, I deleted after someone pointed out that her shirt was less a Nazi shirt than a Ukraine shirt ...

Lumberjack's picture

This mornings headlines at Rian.



I suspect that a clear and concise case is being made in a very expeditious manner. This is going hot soon.

Jack4952's picture

Memo to Vladimir Putin: America’s “Goodness Delusion”

by John-Henry Hill, M.D.

April 29, 2014

I am an American living in Ukraine offering Russian Federation President Vladimir Putin – and other leaders throughout the world - some free advice regarding his dealings with U.S. government over the Ukraine crisis. I have read and heard a number of political analysts in Europe (including in Russia) state that they cannot understand how the U.S. government can NOT accept the blame for the current political crisis in Ukraine. After all, they argue, the U.S. government planned and funded the violent protests in Kiev that led to the February 2014 coup d’etat, ousting the democratically elected (but very corrupt) Yanukovitch regime and replacing it with unelected oligarchs and admitted fascists. So, they wonder, HOW could the U.S. NOT accept the blame for the crisis? As professor John McMurtry wrote, “Reversal of blame is always the U.S. method of pretext and justification.” (“Global Society Destruction and The Ukraine Crisis: Decoding its Deep Structural Meaning” by Prof. John McMurtry, Global Research, April 26, 2014; http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-society-destruction-and-the-ukraine-crisis-decoding-its-deep-structural-meaning/5379275) However, analysts such as professor McMurtry miss the point: Americans see NO BLAME that can be assigned to them for their actions.

Mr. Obama, like 99.9% of Americans, suffers from the delusion which some writers have labeled “American Exceptionalism”, but which I prefer to call the “Goodness Delusion”. I define a delusion as a rigidly held belief not based on evidence or facts. The “Goodness Delusion” of most Americans consists of the deeply-held and unquestioned belief that: (1) America’s motives are always good and benign; (2) America is inherently morally superior to the rest of the world; and from those first two: (3) America has the moral authority - and even the obligation – to enlighten and improve the world by spreading America’s culture and political, legal and financial systems to the rest of the world, using force if needed.

Remember President George Bush’s statement following the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon in which he stated, “They [the alleged radical Muslim religious extremists] hate us for our freedoms.” Many people have dismissed this statement as nonsense, but the fact is that most Americans truly believed it. Even Bush himself may have believed it. After all, how could anyone possibly hate the U.S. government, which seeks only to spread our enlightenment and goodness throughout the world? Similarly was the American phrase used during the Vietnam War of “burning down a village in order to save it” from Communism. To non-Americans, such thinking may seem like a joke – or even insanity. However, that is precisely how most Americans feel. It is what most Americans believe: it is the true American religion – and, like all religions, it requires no evidence or facts to justify it. Would you criticize a parent trying to help her child in ways that will benefit that child, even if that means occasionally spanking that child? As the standard American cliché’ told to anyone complaining about being forced to do something states, “You will thank me later!”

Is this “Goodness Delusion” a strictly American phenomenon? I think not. From my study of American history, I place its origins in Britain and in the British people who migrated to America. As for its origins in Britain, I have no idea. I recall reading speeches by politicians and admirers (past and present) of the British Empire expounding on the many benefits bestowed upon other peoples under British rule. And in America was often defended as being “beneficial” to the slaves; just as the subsequent genocide of the American Indian and later forced internments onto “reservations” where their culture, language and laws were crushed as they were assimilated (taught the “ways of the white man”) were justified. The British and the Americans viewed their actions as being “beneficial” to the peoples they oppressed. Like the mother spanking her child, it was “done for his own good” with no ill intentions. Therefore, how could anyone possibly criticize such actions? (I always found it interesting that the French settlers in North America were extremely tolerant – and often very admiring - of the various American Indian cultures and consequently developed harmonious relationships.)

Any political leader who under-estimates the power of this “Goodness Delusion” of Americans places himself and his nation at risk. For from this delusion comes the determination – some may say “fanaticism” – of the U.S. government in its attempts to “convert” other nations and cultures to the “American way”. And if the U.S. destroys a people in the process of “helping” them, there is no one to blame since its motives were pure. And consequently, the U.S. will try again and again and again to forcefully bestow these “benefits” upon unwilling peoples until it succeeds – or becomes exhausted by the process. The U.S. government will force the post-coup Kiev government and military to use whatever means necessary, including the mass slaughter of its own people, to gain control of the entirety of Ukraine. Mr. Putin, that is why you will need to send Russian troops into eastern and southern Ukraine to protect the Russian people there. So, take heed, Mr. Putin; you have been warned. You will thank me later!

John-Henry Hill, M.D.



falak pema's picture

It goes back to "God wills it" the cry that launched the Crusades and the "goodwill delusion" of the Christian Age, as practiced by soldier-monks... the greatest betrayal of christianity's core values as subsequent history would prove.

therearetoomanyidiots's picture

Yawn.  The majority of Americans, at this point in time, are idiots, stupid, brainwashed rubes.   A number of other americans are "in the system" that is making money because they are the elite, connected and 'educated'.   

Then there are a number of Americans that believe in the exceptionalism of the country only because it is (was) this system that enabled the uneducated but industrious to succeed and live happy and comfortable lives despite not being born into the 'right' bloodline.   BUT we do not condone or believe in the global benevolent hegemony that has been especially espoused by Bush and Obama.  

That hegemony is nothing but hubris and arrogance and imperial desire.  

But, fuck you and the sycophantic cunts who claim the country was corrupt from it's beginning.  Cocksucking poofters.

Global Observer's picture

The "Goodness delusion" was an invention of the 20th century. Until then the psychopaths called Americans didn't find a need to justify their actions to their kind, it was obvious to them, and they didn't feel any need to justify them to the others anyway. The "Goodness delusion" is not what drives the American psychopaths. It is what is used to <i>justify</i> their psychopathology. The British psychopaths has a similar thing, called "white man's burden".

Helg Saracen's picture

:) "America’s “Goodness Delusion” :)

 America’s  zionism + nazism :)

 A plague o' both your houses! (W. Shakespeare, «Romeo and Juliet»)




Setarcos's picture


I was born in England and woke up to the evil of the London Empire when I was about 12 years of age, i.e. nearly 60 years ago.

falak pema's picture

About that time the Hungarian soccer team beat the Brits 6-3 in spite of local hero Stan Matthews. Just goes to show...first defeat of Brits at Wembley. 

therearetoomanyidiots's picture

"I was born in England..."

Nuff said.  

Setarcos's picture

What a long way around avoiding the fact that the Washington Empire has been ruled by socio/psychopaths since 1776.

It kinda amuses me that, here in ZH, we have George Washington's Blog.

Personally I would be ashamed to claim that name for myself, because the real George Washington was a land and slave owning piece of shit .. and he hated native Americans.

doctor10's picture

Even today, the existence of the dissent we enjoy here at ZH is only possible because of the few, white slaveowning "pieces of shit"  that had the cojones  to tell  the worlds bankers and their puppet governments in Europe to go to hell -which worked for about 100 years or so.  The bankers are still dealing with the residue-see "Homeland Secuirty" and the NSA


AnAnonymous's picture

Dissent? Where?

'Americans' are urged to depict tyranny as it was not to provide some sort of credibility to their 'american' system.

For thousands of years, tyrants were not concerned about dissenters who expressed their dissent in the desert. On the contrary, they welcomed dissenters who took their dissent to the desert instead of the public arena.

The Internet is a modern, 'american', version of the desert.

And indeed, the FF must be thanked for that.

Setarcos's picture

Sorry, but you are wrong.

The Founding Fathers were just like the robber barons who extracted Magna Carta from King John.

They objected to paying taxes to the king, that is all.  Neither Magna Carta, nor the Constitiution, etc. were ever supposed to apply to everyone.  "We the people" is really "We the oligarchs".

Your Founding Fathers were republicans, NOT democrats.

George Washington - a robber baron - did not give a stuff about the 'rights' of common people and how long did the divorce from the Rothschilds last?

Every attempt at a sovereign bank has failed.


scrappy's picture

Excellent observation Setarcos.

The folks in Europe did catch on to that elitist fact and created "The Forest Charter"

The Charter of the Forest 1217 C.E. (Paper) the legal foundation of the commons



Setarcos's picture

For some really good live-streaming news, etc. try:  http://www.presstv.ir/live.html  You might be surprized, even if you've been previously Foxed into hating Iran.

Disclaimer: I am not Iranian, nor Moslem, nor of any religious/ideological persuasion, unless trying to acquire facts is an ideology.

I'll say no more.

Pinche Caballero's picture

CIA was founded in 1947. Perhaps you meant the OSS in your blog. Otherwise, thanks for pointing out the differences in how this news is being reported, by whom, and the intended effects (agenda).

Moscow Theatre Hostage Crisis:
"During the raid, all 40 of the attackers were killed by Russian forces, and about 130 hostages died due to adverse reactions to the gas (including nine foreigners). All but two of the hostages who died during the siege were killed by the toxic substance pumped into the theater to subdue the militants."

Beslan School Hostage Crisis:
"On the third day of the standoff, Russian security forces entered the building with the use of tanks, incendiary rockets and other heavy weapons. At least 334 hostages were killed as a result of the crisis, including 186 children, with a significant number of people injured and reported missing."

It isn't that the Russians aren't also heavy-handed, I suppose. Maybe it's just that we lack the conviction of our own beliefs.

falak pema's picture

CIA : created 1949, as a result of "we've lost China" trauma in Truman's administration; and Greek civil war menace in Balkans spilling over, between CHurchill's brigade and the local communist party (1946-49). 

CHurchill's Iron curtain Fulton speech was 1946 and after the Berlin Airlft of 1948, the writing was on the wall that the US create its own "dirty bag of tricks" to take over from the Brits "special forces/SAS" on a more global basis than the OSS WW2 operations. 

Pinche Caballero's picture

Thanks for the correction, Falak Pema.

Although I wouldn't disagree with you on specific dates, I have in the past noticed minor variations in the reasons you and I each think events unfolded the way they did, and their impact on today's current events. The Dulles brothers with their flair for international intrigue have done us no favors.

IMO, the "Great Game" between USSR-UK is simply being replayed in an updated version, only in another direction with the latest revolving players rolling the dice. Ukraine is just another pawn, caught in a buffer zone. The issue with our meddling is events far away have a tendency to overtake our intent.

The Eisenhower Administration was, in my mind, a pivotal one with regards to American involvement in foreign affairs. It was during this time the U.S., via the CIA, became entangled in Iran. At stake then also was the control of natural resources. What might have become a flourishing democracy has since culminated in a theocracy, armed with nukes, at odds with the West. It would seem, due to U.S. lack of concern for longer term consequences, our use of snake oil elsewhere may lead to a rising up that could potentially consume us all.

Apparently lessons of even recent history are too easily forgotten.

One drawback to the discourse here is that there is so much more to things than just what appears on the surface. There isn't ample time/space to work through the finer points here.


xavi1951's picture

To all those Lumberjacks among you, down vote for the diarrhea of the thought and NO substance.

This used to be a website where people would discuss issues and it has degenerated into a website of conspiracy idiots.

Get real!  Evil people do evil things, they always have and always will.  There does NOT need to be a conspiracy for evil people to do evil things!

I feel like I am dealing with the most inept, self-centered, easily led, idiots sometimes.  If this is you.... minus me.