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When the Time Comes Will We Be Able to Forgive?
When the Time Comes Will We Be Able to Forgive?
By
Cognitive Dissonance
How do we live with that soul numbing pain we all know so well, but desperately wish to forget? You know what I’m talking about, the kind of inner pain that cuts a wide swath through our soul and then leaves us vacant and drained. It’s so much easier to be the hard ass, first with ourselves and then with all the others. You can’t be hurt by what you don’t let in, so let’s just raise our shields and hate those bastards because…...because they deserve it, that’s why. Of course, there’s always a special place in my personal hell for a few select psychopaths who deserve my best, most exceptional rage.
The thing is, though, when we finally lay splayed upon the floor exhausted from our hating labors, we still remain unsated and thoroughly dissatisfied. It is only then that we comprehend that we are all that we have left to abhor. Trust me on this one; those are the really ugly hate hangovers, the ones that spring from our own self loathing and disgust, along with our unabashed anger at the cruel world and those who we can single out for special hatred. Come on, we can admit it. We are all so very angry, furious even, at what the sociopaths have dealt us this time around. None the less, here we are. Or soon enough will be. So what are we going to do?
I suspect some of us are sitting smug as a bug thinking that we really aren’t all that angry, just plenty pissed off and loaded for bear. And that might well be the case, at least for now anyway. But just wait until the really shocking stuff is exposed, because the ass hat parade hasn’t even begun to march down Main Street. And between you and me, those stupid little clown cars, the irritating enablers and sycophants, are really going to irritate me to no end when they start to whine. Then what will we do?
I’ll tell you what we do; either we forgive them or we will be consumed by them. Either we dismiss them from our mind with an open and honest heart or we will be owned by them lock, stock and barrel. The choice is up to us and no one else, because at this point we are just renting space in our heads to those little bastards and it is slowly eating us alive. Sure, maybe for now the rented space is just closet sized and free of charge. But when the fecal matter hits several hundred million spinning minds there is going to be giant sized outrage and then the rent rapidly rises from free to mental and emotional slavery.
Forgiving someone or something certainly doesn’t mean forgetting what has been done. Nor does forgiving mean we should let ‘them’ off without punishment or sentence. And I definitely didn’t say a thing about turning the cheek. Nope, I said nothing of the sort. Forgiving is all about giving us permission to let go of all the hate, anger and bile that has been building for years, decades even. Forgiving is about evicting the demons that have occupied our mind for so long that we no longer know where we end and they begin. Forgiving them is all about forgiving ourselves.
Speaking from personal experience and only about me, when it came time for me to forgive I no longer knew how. I didn’t have it in me precisely when I most urgently needed to know how to forgive others so that I could forgive myself. I hadn’t realized that hating for as long as I did effectively sterilized from me my naturally occurring compassion and empathy. So when the time came to turn those healing tools upon others I found to my dismay that I could not heal myself.
Now I have come to understand that if I do not use the tools I have available, they become rusted, blunt and stale. Wait even longer and they are completely forgotten, assuring that I will soon become what I hate. So now I work daily to keep my forgiving sharp and at the ready. And the funny thing is that because of my continuous forgiving labors I now see that the time to forgive might never come because it is here already.
09-06-2011
Cognitive Dissonance
Forgiving Blue
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All of us are playing catch up. I keep thinking I "get it" and then I fall down another rabbit hole and I can't get up. I have been "on to them" since 2005.
What I have only recently really understood is that we are living in a centrally planned economy that is almost totalized. They are trying to sew up lose ends now. It may not work but they will keep trying. Meditate on that, then understand liberty is an illusion you swallowed with mother's breast milk which enabled them to do what they do (ie, you didn't stand a chance, none of us did) and you will, quickly, forgive yourself. When I forgave myself I started forgiving the folks that everyone here calls sheep. I have taken a great deal of time to figure this stuff out and I have no where near the mastry that many here have. I am not a trader so I don't have experience in many ways that really count.
I could not remember where I did the Barter town thing. I am flattered your girlfriend laughed.
believe it or not, my girlfriend is the one who turned me on to ZH. i always knew something was up, but couldnt put my finger on it. oh well, got to go to my volunteer gig. its amazing how the world comes down to' how cheap can i get you to work for me,so i can make more money, and not have to work myself'........
I come from the same "how did I no see" place. Yes, it sucks but what you were is how you got to where you are. Accept what you were as part of the learning process and move forward. Most of us had to dig out from under the pile of lies presented as "truth".
You beat me to it. Good post.
Forgiveness has to be first requested, only then can it be considered.
This request must come from an attitude of contrition.
Be prepared to wait a long time for the money-worshippers to come round to that position.
You have therefore no need to consider forgiveness at this point; so perhaps concentrate on assisting and encouraging the guilty to repent.
I don't want to get all biblical but you're wrong.
It is true that confession is important. BUT....
Forgiveness, to 'forgive'.... whatever you want to call it only takes one person - you. You are called to extend forgiveness regardless of whether the other person understands fully what they have done or is even sorry. Forgiveness, to 'forgive', does not wait for the other person to 'learn their lesson.' YOU initiate forgiveness, totally independent of the other party asking for it. FORGIVING is something you give away even though you may be the only party who recognizes that you even offered it.
So 'forgiveness,' to 'forgive,' forgiving'... is an event, but not an event of amnesia - you are called to forgive the sins of another, not forget them. Forgiving doesn't mean that we minimize what may have been done to us and it doesn't show weakness.
While forgiving is an event, understand that restoration and reconciliation is a process and does not depend on restoration of your happiness. Sorry about that one.
Trust has to be earned, reconciliation takes time. But the event of forgiveness is YOUR responsibility alone.
Sorry. Moving on.....
(Matthew 18:33)
you are called to forgive the sins of another, not forget them.
...I will remember their sins no more. (Jeremiah 31:34)
Mayhe, the proper context of the verse you gave relates to my original post. Translated [emphysys added], '...I will FORGIVE their wickedness and I will NO LONGER HOLD THEIR SINS AGAINST THEM.' That's the meaning of forgive, not literally to forget. Do not hold their sins against them IN YOUR HEART.
Again... Forgiveness is not being a victim and it is not pretending that we did not get hurt. No where in the bible does it tells us to accept the offense done to us, that somehow showing grace means to say what was done is not a big deal. And no where does it tell us that the wicked should not be punished - quite the opposite. But (as C.D. offered), it DOES say to not hold [the bankster's sins] sgainst them in your heart.
I think the author (C.D.) was clear about this but thought I would offer an expanded context.
Moving on from bible hour.... :) Apologies.
What you suggest by saying that "forgiveness has to be first requested" is the essence of existentialism. It's a perversion of Hegel's constitutive other. It's the same as Jean-Paul Sartre's statement "Hell is other people" or "No exit." That's a Marxist shift of the accountability, control and power to "the other" which allows for relief from personal accountability.
We can't bear the pain on our own of the full accountability for our own actions, much less those who have wronged us. That was why Jesus took your burden. He forgives us so that we can forgive others. It's not in their power to decide if I forgive them or not. A line of thinking that others are in control, or no better is that latest spin that has come out of Washington in the form of something called "Libertarian Paternalism." It means that we are only free when we can shift accountability to someone who knows better than us what we need... be that Google, or the government, or some social worker who tells you your dog is overweight and you might be fined if you don't do something about it.
If you can successfully shift the accountability for your willingness to forgive a person to that other person, you've successfully relieved yourself of the quantum condition of free will. Your choices are made for you. You're no longer responsible. The "other" is responsible... but who is responsible for your choice to make them responsible for your free will? People have bought into this idea in a big way because it brings great relief to those who don't know Jesus Christ and that His burden is easy and his yoke is light... because he carries it.
Dave Harrison
www.tradewithdave.com
Please point to where I am discussing 'forgiveness' in this essay. I only use the words 'forgive' and 'forgiving' which are not the same as 'forgiveness".
Lost me on that distinction, CD. To speak of forgiving is the same as to speak of forgiveness IMO.
Many people are using forgiveness in a context I did not use or imply.
I can forgive someone without demanding or needing them to repent or even ask to be forgiven. To forgive is mine and mine alone to do or not do. Too many people are saying forgiveness instead of forgiving and they are implying or outright saying that one cannot be forgiven until they repent or ask to be forgiven.
This is why I stayed completely away from forgiveness in this essay. I focused only on what the person harmed can and, in my view, ultimately must do if they are to heal from the assaults. They must forgive.
Exactly. And I mean exactly. You know, brother Cog, I read this a bit ago, but did not have time to come down here into the comments section for my phone, which is currently ringing with urgent business at hand.
Anyway, after reading it, and prior to reading the peanut gallery response, I knew this one would not sit well for many. You see, the business of money knows no humility, and barely any decency. The business of markets is that business of NEVER resolving anything...quite the opposite of your subject matter.
BLAME MUST BE UNDONE---NOT RE-ALLOCATED.
"The peace of YOUR Soul lies in its limitlessness. Limit the peace you share, and your own Soul MUST be unknown to you. Every altar to God is part of your Soul, because the Light He created is One with Him. Would you cut a brother off from the Light that is yours? You could not do so, if you realized that YOU CAN ONLY DARKEN YOUR OWN MIND. As you bring HIM back, so will YOUR mind return. That is the law of God, for the protection of the wholeness of His Son.
ONLY YOU CAN DEPRIVE YOURSELF OF ANYTHING. Do not oppose this realization, for it is truly the beginning of the dawn of light. Remember also that the denial of this simple fact takes many forms, and these you must learn to recognize, and oppose steadfastly and WITHOUT EXCEPTION. This is a crucial step in the re-awakening. The beginning phases of this reversal are often quite painful, for as blame is withdrawn from without, there is a strong tendency to harbor it within.
It is difficult, at first, to realize that this is EXACTLY the same thing, for there IS no distinction between within and without. If your brothers are part of YOU, and you blame THEM for your deprivation, you ARE blaming yourself. And you cannot blame yourself WITHOUT blaming them.
That is why blame must be UNDONE, NOT re-allocated. Lay it to yourself, and you cannot KNOW yourself, for ONLY THE EGO BLAMES AT ALL. Self-blame is therefore ego identification, and as strong an ego defense as blaming others. YOU CANNOT ENTER GOD'S PRESENCE IF YOU ATTACK HIS SON." Course in Miracles
...........................
One horrendous problem with this tripe... no mention of who/what exactly is "them"? But precision and balance doesn't really serve the needs of a pissed off mob who want to see only what they want. And of course, a self-righteous vantage point so that one puts the blame solely on the nameless. What a fine bunch of innocent victims we are!
Seriously, who is "them"?
Every bank CEO? Every person employed in a bank, down the the last inbound representative? Where is the cut-off?
Every Federal Reserve hack? Every economist that ever shamed the halls of higher learning? Every person that believes that J M Keynes was onto something?
Every IG executive that creates shell companies to pretty much launder money offshore and avoid taxes? Every employee with a job?
Every small businessman that takes advantage of some lawyer that settles ten years of deadbeat tax dodging for 10 cents on the dollar?
Everyone in the financial industry, institutions that never got a bailout? Financial planners? Or just the incompetent ones that told their clients to stick their heads in the sand in the face of one of the biggest stock market ramps ever? The army of accountants in the ratings agencies?
Blame the guys that lost their jobs? Or just the ones that are on foodstamps, and welfare?
The aliens that abducted your cow and probed your anus?
The "illuminati" that are as clueless as everyone else?
What a hypocritical, self-indulgent, self-righteous article... blame "them" for it, so that you can have a focal point to vent on. But that is what this all about: emotional crap that avoids at all costs thinking with your mind.
I do my best to avoid juvenalia that starts with phrases like "soul-numbing pain" but it is time for all children to grow out of their diapers at some point.
For me, THEY come from the top .01% global economic strata. THEY are the economic and political rulers pulling the strings. Examples would include the Rockefellers in the US and the Rothschilds in Great Britain and Europe. Suffice to say that most multi-billionaires and all trillionaires (Rothschilds) fall into this group. After reflection, I realize THEY are those that we personally rage against. If all of the folks you mention enrage you, then THEY are your focus.
So because they have more money than you, they are deserving of your revenge.
If you think you have problems, go talk to a mom dying of terminal cancer and a three year old daughter. Or the boy that is stuck with an alcoholic dad that beats the living hell out of him a couple of times a week. Or the toddler that has dissassociative disorder because his mom put her cigarettes out on his forehead. Or the milliions of people on this planet that don't get welfare checks and starve if they don't find work.
Take the cards you have been dealt in life as they are. Make the best of them. Shrug off the setbacks. Sometimes nothing is a pretty cool hand. Stop whining about how much worse things are for you than other people. You can always find someone that has it worse.
Above all: GROW UP AND STOP BEING CUPCAKES.
For those who are intersted, the scriptures are clear...we are to leave space for God to exact revenge.. not our job.
Some Gods snore loudly, while another God gave us hands so we might be act as the effect to those 'in need of forgiveness'. We have the responsibility to react to this 'cause', so the transgressions cannot happen again from the same people and institutions..
Forgiving others is easy compared to forgiving yourself when you haven't used the tools provided to do what must be done in this very, very short life.
Interesting piece CD.
I do agree that blind rage and revenge can turn us into something worse than what we are struggling against- look at the reign of terror after the french revolution for example. But I also have a perspective on what too much leniency and forgiveness turns into...
In the early '90 Poland was dealing with the "transformation" from one party rule to "democracy". The old opposition was divided into two camps. One of the camps where the people who wanted swift prosecution and justice against the apparatchiks of the previous system- begginning with the people who introduced martial law, orderd the militarized police mowing down coal miners on strike with machine guns and crushed with tanks (not further than a 20 minute drive from where I live), down to the people who informed on their neighbours to the secret police about petty bs. The second camp in the old opposition called for "forgiveness" and "moving on"... The first camp was booed away by the media and their government dismantled, the second one was successfull... The agents of the old system where allowed to stay in political and public life, media, law enforcment, inteligence/counter inteligence, military and economics... A socialdemocratic party was formed and started "making govrnment" with the cooperative, lenient old opposition.
20 years later we have a political eliete that just keeps changing paty names but the same faces stay in the seats of government- a two headed one party system, with no representation of the common man. The military inteligence is a shadow government brokering deals on state projects and determining a foreign policy no one I know supports (like polish troops in Afghanistan). The old secret police top dogs- that used to order rusy pins to be stuck under fingernails of dissidents are now billionare "entrepreneurs" and bankers that bought their starting capital for pennies on the dollar in insider deals during the years of the pillage go happy privatization. Historians and the die hard opposition figures keep pulling skeletons out of the closet pointing to the abovementioned "second camp" being nothing more than agents of the old system- controlled opposition- but no one cares anymore... The country is drowning in debt both public and private, the media is lobbotomizing the public and we are heading like blind sheep towards the edge of a cliff.
I see my friends scraping up a living in deep coal mines, or on factory lines. They work for silly money no one from a western country would take to even come close to the lift that takes my palls 2100 feet underground, or no one from for example a german factory would be motivated with a paycheck like they get to make the kind of quota on the factory line that they reach here. Me, Im privilaged, thanks to my parents emmigrating when I was 4, leaving me here and helping me with money from abroad to finish collage- soon as an automation controol and robotics engineer I might get a chance to get a job in the coal mine overseeing a mining combine, or- worse- at a factory thinking on how to automate a part of the line a bit better so Fiat can fire one of my friends- haha, wonderfull.. And the pay Ill get if Im this lucky and land one of theese jobs? I used to install hardwood floors in Illinois over the summer- I made more money (adjusted to cost of living in the States) than what I will be offered here as an engineer with a diploma.
Thats the kind of country and reality I live in thanks to to much leniency towards people who should have been at least banished from Poland... The establishment and all its minions right now are and always will be a threat even if it- hopefully- comes to the point when we get them into court rooms... They need to be treated as a deadly threat because the instability their machinations introduce into the world could be the end of us all... We need to understand- its not just about an economic depression in the US, or me nagging about being a poor polack... there are people dying of hunger in Africa... the banking cartel, and the political class pushing for globalization at all cost have ALOT of blood on their hands, and if they kick off WW3... Well You think about it.
So for most of them the forgiveness should come after a fair trial- when all their crimes are judged and acounted, when the priest standing by them says: "... and may God have mercy on Your soul" and the rope snaps..
But reality might not be so fair and civilized... no trials may await them as the growing mass of disgruntled, impoverished people voice their ideas about how to deal with the top cast like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMwIOdfYU8E
... I believe they brought the rage upon themselves- You reap what You sow.
Invaluable insight into what's going on in Poland. I can't thank you enough. We get fed a load of BS here by our neocon press about Poland. How wonderful things are and how everyone is becoming an entrepreneur. Probably Russia is also like how you describe Poland.
Doubt you will listen:
Eckhart Tolle - The Current Economy
http://vimeo.com/11549085
A Zen dude on the economy
watching now. love his sly chuckles. gracias amiga.
He seems to be in on the cosmic joke, doesn't he?
My only question after watching/thinking/feeling was the justice question. "Is there a "distance" from events that is unhealthy for the world?" My husband is a rogue monk (and an ex-soldier). He informs me that you can mindfully beat a mugger over the head with loving compassion. The mugger needs awakening. And so it goes. ;-)
methinks your hubby's a wise man. please tell him that parables from rogue monks are always welcomed.
dear mscreant,
i regret to inform of this, but, you will no longer be the recipient of janus's coy flirtations. i read something the other day that touched ole janus. it was in reference to your husband. seems like you have you a Good Man -- they are most rare. now i know the answer to the mystery. you actually Love your husband.
besides, there is a decent chance he and i ran into each other in my past life...please do not bring up what i'm talking about; you know EXACTLY what i mean. no need to clarify.
so, sadly, from here out, msCreant and janus are merely friends -- the best of friends, but friends only.
one last one...parting is such sweet sorrow (turn er up, sugar).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_yvrugtnpo
alas...sigh,
janus
I am indeed rich, even without gold, silver, or fiat!
janus is cute. That takes nothing from my lover, my husband, who is all that!
CUround!
well, then, my lovely, tis back on! tell your husband that janus has the same self-confidence (and chuckles when lessers try and flirt with mrs. janus behind my back), and that janus now knows he'll fully understand.
he has exquisite taste in women (but i'm sure you both already know as much).
i will stop when you give but the faintest signal to stop -- janus is nothing if not a gentleman.
tell your husband i said "green feet"!!! he'll know what janus means.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjJw4eiF9Uk&feature=related
my prayers are with "sam" and his family
she's got everything she needs/
she's an artist/
she don't look back/
...she's a hypnotist collector/
you are a walking antique,
janus
fuck that!
be a team player..
let the sweater puppies loose!
I have not read the entire responses so 'forgive if I repeat anothers thoughts:
I'll keep the forgivness thing in mind BUT...if there are serious attempts to limit my ability to control things through assaults on the Second Ammendment, then all bets are off. I have put up with a lifetime of taxation abuse, TSA abuse, petty law abuse, corrupt politics abuse and so on...as long as I know that ULTIMATELY we can fix it if it gets bad enough I can probably continue to put up with things. If the government decides it must have THAT power too....well then...
Some data for those willing to deny entropy any power over them.
www.tradewithdave.com/?p=6183
First Justice, then Forgiveness.
I am discussing 'forgiving' someone and to 'forgive' someone. I am not discussing 'forgiveness'. There is a marked difference in these words.
People seem to forget that forgiving is for yourself, not someone else. Without it the past will destroy you.
CD-
You are an example of a person overwhelmed by emotions and falling into sloppy, self-absorbed sympathy. that is why you hate. You didn't get what you want and you hate it - a product of your selfishness.
There is no need to hate. We only need relentless, precise, intelligent driven action to do the right thing for the right reason. no hate, no selfishness. Just relentless virtue.
Get off your immature high horse and get to work.
Forgiveness only come to those who repent.
+1 for the even #'d paragraphs. the odd is staring at all of us in the mirror, you too stev3e.
"Forgiveness is for God and toward God but not of Him. It is impossible to think of anything He created that could need forgiveness. Forgiveness, then, is an illusion, but because of its purpose, which is the Holy Spirit's, it has one difference. Unlike all other illusions it leads away from error and not towards it.
Forgiveness might be called a kind of happy fiction; a way in which the unknowing can bridge the gap between their perception and the truth. They cannot go directly from perception to knowledge because they do not think it is their will to do so. This makes God appear to be an enemy instead of what He really is. And it is just this insane perception that makes them unwilling merely to rise up and to return to Him in peace." Course in Miracles
I've read most of the comments. Wow, there is a LOT of anger out there.
It's not possible to forgive someone you've never met. You probably can't really hate them either. You can hate the evil they have become, but that is far different.
Most of these people have become irrelevant.
They are in the process of self destructing and so are really more an object of pity.
I'm moving on.
I forgive the sheeple, but the wolves must perish.
Mortality is not the antithesis of forgiveness. All will perish. All are offered forgiveness, but not all accept it.
18. "A miracle is a service. It is the maximal service that one soul can render another. It is a way of loving your neighbor as yourself. The doer recognizes his own and his neighbor's inestimable value simultaneously. (This is why no areas of hatred can be retained. If you retain them, your own value is no longer inestimable, because you are evaluating it as X or infinity minus that amount. This is meaningless mathematically, which uses the term "inestimable" only in the very literal sense."
I don't believe in miracles.
Now that I reflect on my comparison of the Oligarchs to wolves, it gives me pause. Wolves act upon animal nature without the capacity of higher thought. They kill to survive. Oligarchs steal and murder with the full knowledge of how they effect humanity. The sociopaths relish in the evil deeds they do.
My apologies to wolves everywhere.
Hate is not needed for that.
hello, mscreant. you wrote about ben and bartertown once, but we cant find it. where is it? my girlfriend was laughing so hard she cried, i thought it it was so tragically true, thank you.
Answer later in this thread.
Hey CD. Did you know that forgiveness is the only thing capable of breaking the arrow of time as it relates to human consciousness. Check the math. See Gromoll soul theorem, Perelman, Poincare. It's a proven fact. You don't need a large haldron collider. We all possess a time machine called forgiveness. Sartre, Berlin, Marx, etc. denied it because of its inherent freedom. But I forgive them for denial. Having the power to change both the past and the future is a big responsibility plus it can get you crucified.
Dave Harrison
www.tradewithdave.com
Gutsy post, CD. Thanks.
http://www.stgeorgeaz.org/assets/files/newsletter/pdf_files/2010/201011_Newsletter.pdf