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When the Time Comes Will We Be Able to Forgive?
When the Time Comes Will We Be Able to Forgive?
By
Cognitive Dissonance
How do we live with that soul numbing pain we all know so well, but desperately wish to forget? You know what I’m talking about, the kind of inner pain that cuts a wide swath through our soul and then leaves us vacant and drained. It’s so much easier to be the hard ass, first with ourselves and then with all the others. You can’t be hurt by what you don’t let in, so let’s just raise our shields and hate those bastards because…...because they deserve it, that’s why. Of course, there’s always a special place in my personal hell for a few select psychopaths who deserve my best, most exceptional rage.
The thing is, though, when we finally lay splayed upon the floor exhausted from our hating labors, we still remain unsated and thoroughly dissatisfied. It is only then that we comprehend that we are all that we have left to abhor. Trust me on this one; those are the really ugly hate hangovers, the ones that spring from our own self loathing and disgust, along with our unabashed anger at the cruel world and those who we can single out for special hatred. Come on, we can admit it. We are all so very angry, furious even, at what the sociopaths have dealt us this time around. None the less, here we are. Or soon enough will be. So what are we going to do?
I suspect some of us are sitting smug as a bug thinking that we really aren’t all that angry, just plenty pissed off and loaded for bear. And that might well be the case, at least for now anyway. But just wait until the really shocking stuff is exposed, because the ass hat parade hasn’t even begun to march down Main Street. And between you and me, those stupid little clown cars, the irritating enablers and sycophants, are really going to irritate me to no end when they start to whine. Then what will we do?
I’ll tell you what we do; either we forgive them or we will be consumed by them. Either we dismiss them from our mind with an open and honest heart or we will be owned by them lock, stock and barrel. The choice is up to us and no one else, because at this point we are just renting space in our heads to those little bastards and it is slowly eating us alive. Sure, maybe for now the rented space is just closet sized and free of charge. But when the fecal matter hits several hundred million spinning minds there is going to be giant sized outrage and then the rent rapidly rises from free to mental and emotional slavery.
Forgiving someone or something certainly doesn’t mean forgetting what has been done. Nor does forgiving mean we should let ‘them’ off without punishment or sentence. And I definitely didn’t say a thing about turning the cheek. Nope, I said nothing of the sort. Forgiving is all about giving us permission to let go of all the hate, anger and bile that has been building for years, decades even. Forgiving is about evicting the demons that have occupied our mind for so long that we no longer know where we end and they begin. Forgiving them is all about forgiving ourselves.
Speaking from personal experience and only about me, when it came time for me to forgive I no longer knew how. I didn’t have it in me precisely when I most urgently needed to know how to forgive others so that I could forgive myself. I hadn’t realized that hating for as long as I did effectively sterilized from me my naturally occurring compassion and empathy. So when the time came to turn those healing tools upon others I found to my dismay that I could not heal myself.
Now I have come to understand that if I do not use the tools I have available, they become rusted, blunt and stale. Wait even longer and they are completely forgotten, assuring that I will soon become what I hate. So now I work daily to keep my forgiving sharp and at the ready. And the funny thing is that because of my continuous forgiving labors I now see that the time to forgive might never come because it is here already.
09-06-2011
Cognitive Dissonance
Forgiving Blue
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Forgiveness is necessary if we are to build a successful society. Of course we must punish the banksters, but if we use this hatred as a unifying force, we will ultimately succumb to its violent actualization. http://the-they.blogspot.com/2011/08/future.html
Absolutely ....................Positively .....................NOT !
Forgiveness is the foundation of many theological beliefs, but the concept of justice and punishment is not lost on anybody. You can separate the two, but not very well since our emotions get in the way.
Also, all my "I forgive you" statements are useless unless the forgiven apprehends and comprehends it and does something with it.
When it comes to Obama and the people who put him in office, I will try to figure out a way to forgive them, but it would be much easier to do if I get a sense that they realize how completely they screwed up. In my worst moments I say "I was once enlightened about race". But regardless of color, all of America will have to show me they have had some type of epiphany before forgiveness will come easy. Until then, it will be a long hard process for me.
Sounds a lot like the way so many feel about Bush/Cheney. After all, who else so celebrated sowing the seeds of America's dimise?
Bollocks! This shit would have happened anyways -- you are just indulging in scapegoating and denial. Man up and take responsibility!
I agree. So we best start now.
Yes, starting now.
Thanks Cog D.
The end of the great debt experiment is nearing and everything is pointing towards a big credit crash coming up. The world’s monetary system needs to be backed by gold in order to move forward with a sound financial system that does not allow banks create money out of thin air. Money should not be based on debt, but on sound intrinsic value.
Check out the latest from the Capital Research Institute (CRI): The Debt End Game
www.capitalresearchinstitute.org
Anger is a special, powerful and complex force. Personally it took me some difficult discovery to realize that it is possible to skip over the true anger and forgive too soon, leaving a deep hole with unprocessed material.
Anger is like corrosive battery acid. It operates on both the psychological and physical level, i.e. it can actually kill you. Thus the impulse to 'step around it' and move on.
So while I agree with you CD there are steps on the road, important steps. For example, explicit revenge fantasies may be helpful or even essential to processing anger. But it conflicts with a nice/reasonable self image. So in steps...cognitive dissonance...which can sabotage the process or force compartmentalization so strong that it can last for a lifetime.
Let's take our anger at TPTB and the TBTF types and remember to take it seriously, work it out thoroughly, and use it for good. A lot of that is going to look seriously ugly. So let's also remember to not judge others based on their anger management of the moment...but rather be supportive and share what we learn about it.
It's like when you have been robbed. You are consumed with anger and revenge, but if you are smart, you don't compound your problems by doing something with no real benefit. It takes time. Day by day it gets a little less intense.
I was recently robbed by a PM dealer and his employees, they actually stole some of my silver (5k) when we were doing a swap. I went into a back office to look at some coins with an employee and the owner and 2 other employees started counting my goods - and stealing. I was fucked, they said I miscounted but everything was organized and counted multiple times. I was lucky to get out of there without it having been worse.
I tossed and turned for weeks, burning with revenge. Nothing I could have done would have made the situation better. I chose to do nothing. The only upside is my timing on the trade has put me way ahead. They burned me, but they were on the wrong side of the trade.
Choose your battles carefully.
Post the name of the dealer please. Enable karma. Or just put the review on google maps. I like to do that with the fed and the white house etc.
Great idea. Post the names of those who rob. Where you can, social networks might be nice.
If someone ever screws me like that, up they go on my blog, at Facebook, etc.
+ $1800 for doing the sane fo the Fed and White House, LOL...
Forgivness is between them and 'god' :)
Forgiving is one thing. But is it safe to forget?
And if you decide it is not safe -- that they'll just come back for another round if you forget what they are capable of -- then you end up having to sleep with the enemy. So they win again, because all they want is to screw you.
I am increasingly of the opinion that they should be forgiven. Indeed, just that. So that as you say we can each of us move on. And once they are forgiven, go ahead and kill them. Because they can't change and who wants to deal with that kind of fucked up shit for all of eternity?
Pretty straight forward, seems like. Or maybe I missed something?
-- the fyrebird
fyrebird,
Are you at ZH looking for safety?
you've come to the wrong place
thanks for laugh
this is the best of the day
respectfully om
I never said we should forget and walk away. Nor skip justice. From my piece above.
The criminals that have destroyed this country from the inside can be forgiven at the gallows- after their confession.
Forgiving trangressions unrecognized by the perp is empty liberalism. Jesus was all forgiving. His father kept a grudge.
"Forgive" implies pardon, which you explicitly reject. We need a different word that I am not sure exists in the English language.
"Evicting the demons" of resentment, anger and fear from our own mind allows us to live free from the wrongdoing of others. We must do it ... or live in mental anguish imposed by others over whom we have no control or power.
Once the demons are evicted, we are free men, accountable for our own actions and the results thereof.
Cordially,
TwoHoot
Cleansing?
But CD, really, objectively, what do I have to forgive in myself except my own non-perfection? Many of us have truly done nothing wrong in the context of ideology and its practical applications of politics and economy. "Forgiving ourselves" is has the ring of a "Guilt Trip", and I never buy those tickets.
We need to forgive them because in the end, they are as fallible as we are. But we need to punish their evil as well. I do not need to forgive because of some failing in myself, because in this case there is none. I need to forgive becasue...well I hate theological discussions on blogs.
But forgiving something in myself? No. Not in this case.
I need to forgive becasue...well I hate theological discussions on blogs...
At the risk of a hateful response, from theologian RC Sproul and "Renewing Your Mind", (paraphrased): Five stages of Forgiveness
1. Turning from the evil act. In a church word, repent.
2. Remit. This is the Divine's act in response to a guilty person's recognition of wrongdoing.
3. Restitution. This is the penitent's proof and response in thankfulness for the payback/remittance provided by the Divine.
4. Reconciliation. This is the purpose for our being on the earth in the first place.
5. Restoration. This is our final destination.
If nothing else, it may help with understanding where our founding fathers ideas for the republic originally sprang from.
I am not making a theological argument. It is others that are and then accusing me of being off base. And in your case you are talking about the evil doer seeking forgiveness. This is not what I'm talking about.
you are talking about the evil doer seeking forgiveness...
I'm not so sure about that even. It may be that at the end of the road, the realization is that my separation is rightfully deserved. Forgiveness or not, separation is just.
I realize too you're trying to draw a distinction between "forgive/forgiving" and "forgiveness". It may or may not be a difference without a distinction, but in the book of books, the jew's king David said he sinned against the Creator alone when he had his paramour's husband killed. That didn't stop the slain man's grandfather from setting him up with some payback later on when he counseled his son to sleep with his concubines in public.
Seek justice, love mercy. That's the command. That's the struggle. imo.
In the context of the comment I replied to they were talking about the evil doer seeking forgiveness. If you wish to engage in a larger discussion then we can at another time. But many people are putting words and slanted meaning into my mouth. I just wanted to make sure my intent was heard.
I just wanted to make sure my intent was heard...
Fair enough. By the response to your thoughts on the subject, I'd say you struck a resonant rather than dissonant chord. Your garden very well may be the first to feed.
Very quickly, there are (4) areas we take offense at from others, murder, lying, thieving, and adultery. We know when justice is required, but without a legal framework and collective will to address the wrong, retribution and vengeance overtake justice and the scales remain unbalanced. Trust will remain unrestored unless truthful contrition is acted upon. imo.
Exactly
If you have searched and found nothing within yourself to forgive, well then this is good. Right?
You should walk away knowing that you are well rounded and right sized and that this essay doesn't apply to you. It was most certainly not directed towards you to begin with.
Thank you for your feedback.
I hate that essay CD. ;>)
Though I am not (yet) done hating the villians.
I really appreciate these articles of yours, CD.
Forgiveness matters, not for the others, but for US. We need to let the bitterness go; we can still remain aware of what the sociopaths are.
And for you hardasses, who want to shoot people... forgiveness is MORE important for you. Talk to a guy who has really killed someone and see.
Indeed, CH1. I posted this earlier in the thread:
Perhaps it is only when one has realized the need for forgiveness that the need to forgive is revealed.
Best regards...a former hard ass.
I wouldn't call myself a hardass, but for the massive amount of "transfers of wealth" that are occuring (which is in reality, theft on a planetary scale), executions IMHO are called for since the lives of so many have been and will be ruined. Simply think of the pension funds being slowly "eaten alive" by the 10 yr rate at 1.9%.
CD is right. This is not about absolving anyone of responsibility, or shaking hands and saying, "Hey, no hard feelings".
It's about moving on. It's saying, "You made some really bad choices, and built yourself a prison cell. But it's a prison cell for one, and I'm not going to share it with you. There's too much life still to be lived. See ya."
Our age's great moral philosopher Glenn Frey put it this way:
"Well I know it wasn't you who held me down
Heaven knows it wasn't you who set me free
So often times it happens that we live our lives in chains
And we never even know we have the key."
As for me, I'm already gone.
Definitely an underappreciated songwriting talent. I tell my songwriting friends to go listen to old Eagles songs all the time. Not only do they say something, they are rhythmically and syllabically perfect.
I think of those lyrics a lot lately
Great song, great quote.
I can forgive the B L A C K S for voting for Obangi. I didn't and never have expected much from them based on "most" of my past experiences. They have to have some kind of role model......and they will just have to continue their search. A lot of them are alcking a father figure. That being said, I guess the independents, the young, and the short-memory democrats who supported Obuma should have known better. Some of my friends and relative must have thought this was another smooth funny version od Eddie Murphy, but we know now that no one has seen any of HIS movies lately. THis was the "talking German Shepherd" moment. Everyone heard that there was the impossible combination of looks, jive, intelligent almost approaching the impossible. And they heard it from SO MANY.........that thier disbelief was buttered up and buttered over. This will separate people next year. DO NOT assume that any driver who STILL has an Obungle sticker on their car will see you in traffic.....
Itis said that "Ignorance can be cured, but stupidity is lifelong.....IF you live long!"
What is tragic about the Obama 'administration" is that those who needed help the most, those who naively believed him, and those who supported him will probably be hurt the most when the economy REALLY goes down for the third time. I'm not sure if this can be called irony, tragedy, or .............just evolution at work.
If so-called "whites" didn't vote for him as they did, he wouldn't be where he is today. It's funny that you should mention experience and ignorance while exposing yourself as a racist:
"The wise are instructed by reason; ordinary minds by experience; the stupid, by necessity; and brutes by instinct." --Cicero
dp
Typical stupid White Liberal logic - look at the numbers.
Yea I know the old line, 'dont hate on them, that just eats you up'...or just turn it into something useful and productive instead.
Hard to ask the slave to forgive the slave master right before the whipping kicks into high gear. Anger gets a lot of things done, and will see a man though troubled times when someone who is not driven will simply give up. It's a natural response to what is happening. Hell I don't think people are angry enough! In the past our ancestors would have already revolted for far less, we are down right passive.
Nowhere in the piece do I advocate skipping the whipping. Nor do I suggest anyone give up.
I suspect we have differing definitions of what forgiving means. Read the piece and you will understand mine.
Maybe we do, because to me forgiveness has with it letting go of seeking reprisals or fixating on "getting even", you say still pursue justice, but that is not being pursued now. It's noble to go after those destroying our world, but ultimately futile. I've not seen justice in my time, and scanning the pages of history most powerful villains live long and luxuriously lives. There is no justice in this world so in effect to forgive is to forget.
But what I'm trying to point out is that anger can and will keep one foot moving in front of the other. Many don't have much but that anger left, and that will only increase when the collapse begins in earnest. People can and do give up when they have nothing left. Maybe anger isn't the best thing to live for, but it's certainly a tried and true reason that has kept man alive throughout the ages.
Shameful,
Obesity may be a sign of repressed anger; I don't know, but it is the first thing that comes to mind in reading your comment.
The only justice that ever appeared aside from that concept of the human mind is what 'is' or 'asi es' in Ecuador. meaning acceptance of reality. I'm having a bad time with this practice of accepting the world as it is because 'I' do NOT want IT.
I can only be frustrated with this oldman for such foolishness
thanks for stimulating this thought om
diet
almost two years ago, when I just found this site, I remember getting into a debate whether or not any of these unprecedentd crimes could be resolved without some level of "violence." I recall quoting Assimov and others and throwing out all sorts of schemes I thought might do the trick in a neat, bloodless, ribbon tied package. Two years later, and all I see is more insanity, more theft, more injustice, and amazing amounts of destruction and hunger. If violence, in its most basic form, is merely brute force to achieve an end, then justice is nothing more than a directed constructive form of "violence" that the majority of us have come to agree. See war. Whether or not this ends in civil war, I know now, given the amazing levels of corruption, that it will only be resolved by working outside the very systems that are rotted and falling and by applying some amount of brute force to tear them down and build something healthy
The problem is we don't just have a couple thousand 'bankster's to punish(kill) I'd say we got anything from 60-90% of population that are equally guilty of being gullible and willfully ignorant sheeple that have enabled this corrupt system in the 1st place, war is the only thing that will clean out the system
They are not equally guilty but more guilty. When a "insert favourite sport here" player fouls and goes on to score because the ref / umpire doesn't call the infringement who do the crowd boo? It is the referee, not the player that took advantage in his quest to win. The reality is that all this could have been stopped / prevented at any instant in the last 50 years IF enough people had thought for themselves and simply voted for change / demanded change.
It is quite a conundrum and has dealt a severe blow to my dreams of a truly egailitarian society .... who are we kidding, the useless eaters are the problem. Without their complicity none of the other problems could ever have manifested to the degree they have.
And it also locks man into making the same mistakes again and again. Which makes it one of the inner sources of our own self enslavement.
When will we as a people finally try a different way rather then prove once again that we are all just insane?