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Guest Post: One Very Strange Use For Silver Coins
From Simon Black of Sovereign Man
One Very Strange Use For Silver Coins
“Corruptissima republica plurimae leges. [The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state.]“ -Tacitus, the Annals ca. AD 69
The nature of what is ‘legal’ has become a truly bizarre concept these days. Developed nations of the west have hundreds of thousands of pages of rules, codes, regulations, laws, decrees, executive orders, etc., many of which are contradictory, archaic, and incomprehensible.
Across these ‘free’ nations, the law is selectively enforced, selectively applied, and completely set aside whenever it pleases the state. As such, even the most harmless of activities (operating a lemonade stand, collecting rainwater, etc.) can be cast as illegal… while the direct theft of people’s wealth through taxes and manipulation of the currency is considered legal.
There is no morality anymore in the law. And even still, whatever few activities may still be considered ‘legal’ are subject to consequences if the enforcers simply decide they don’t like it.
I have a good friend you might like to hear from on the subject; his name is Jake Lawless (an assumed pen name for reasons which will become obvious), and he is a bit of a master when it comes to skirting the line between what’s legal, and what they just don’t like.
In Jake’s words:
—
I’m a beneficiary of mortgage brokers who believed that housing prices would rise forever. The US real estate crash, plus high gas prices, forced a lot of people to sell their luxury vehicles… and the sudden glut caused prices to fall dramatically.
I didn’t think much about the market for pre-owned luxury cars until one day an engine fire from a cracked turbo manifold in my truck left me stranded. After a day’s search, I found a beautiful car for sale in Nevada, and the asking price was a fraction of the pre-crash peak.
I then contacted the dealer, wired a $500 deposit, and bought a ticket to Las Vegas… all after explaining that I wanted to purchase the vehicle with pre-1965 US quarters.
You may know that, before 1965, many US coins had a very high silver content. As such, they had intrinsic value… real worth, completely independent of “faith” or “because we decree it thus.”
I put roughly 4,000 of these quarters (~$1000 of face value) in a carry-on bag and headed to the airport. The quick math is this– 4,000 pre-1965 quarters contains 715 ounces of silver. At the time, silver was about $35/ounce, so 715 ounces was worth $25,000. In other words, every single quarter had a silver content worth about $6.25.
At the airport, I played my part in security theatre, dutifully removing my shoes after heaving my luggage onto the conveyor. There was a flurry of activity on other side of the x-ray machine. A crack TSA operative stormed up, indignant. “WHOA sir…I have to inspect your luggage.”
Mind you, there is no law against transporting 54 pounds (24.5 kg) of quarters onto an airplane, but that didn’t seem to matter. He just didn’t like it. The TSA guy opened my luggage to find a ziptied cloth bag labelled “$1000?.
“What’s this all about?”
“That’s a bag of quarters. I’m on my way to Vegas,” I said, showing my boarding pass. “I have a system for playing the slots.”
“Wow… will you go through all these?”
“Heck, no. I plan on coming back with even more. I told you, I’ve got a system. I can’t lose!”
“Can I cut the zip tie off and have a look?”
“I’d rather you didn’t, unless you have another zip tie…I don’t want 4000 quarters rolling all over the plane.”
TSA guy demurred. “Oh, ok. Well, good luck. Hope you win big!”
Upon arrival to Las Vegas, the dealer picked me up and drove us directly to a coin shop. I gave him the coins, around $1,000 in face value, and he handed them to the clerk who promptly issued a check for roughly $25,000 made out to the dealer.
It was a legitimate swap– $1,500 worth of legal tender changed hands (my $500 original deposit plus another roughly $1,000 in face value of the pre-1965 quarters), plus value-for-value was bartered between two grown adults.
I drove away with a bill of sale for $1,500, which I then submitted to my state DMV authorities as a basis for them charging me a vehicle tax. Frankly, I think this is highway robbery. Why my state has its hand out every time two individuals conduct a private transaction is beyond me.
But what can anyone do about it? Lobby the state legislature? Rock the vote? Protest… and hope we don’t get arrested, beaten, or shot by those sworn to protect and to serve? Give someone at the DMV a stern lecture about economic freedom?
Trying to change this system is a waste of resources. It’s a race that everyone will lose. Besides, you could spend your whole life lobbying to change one law, and by the time you succeed, they’ll have already passed another 10,000 new, even dumber laws.
Fact is, no one can do anything about this. Just like nobody can prevent Ben Bernanke from dropping money from helicopters. We can’t stop the price rises from monetary inflation, we can’t stop out of control spending (and theft) at all levels of government.
What we CAN do is take sensible steps to protect what’s ours… and then use their own stupid rules against them. It’s a much easier way to win.
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Good post. That's exactly why I said I wasn't sure on this, am not a lawyer, and had never carried bullion on a plane. But I was aware of this from personal experience:
"[Customs] Officers seized one bar of gold, two silver bullion bars and three bottles of gold nuggets because travelers failed to file a shipper’s export declaration. This automated declaration is required when transporting a commodity out of the country valued at least $2,500. Failure to file a shipper’s export declaration can result in the commodity’s seizure."
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/archives/2010_news_rel...
As for what constitutes a "monetary instrument" and must be declared: (from the declaration form itself)
Monetary Instruments— (1) Coin or currency of the United St ates or of any other country, (2)
traveler’s checks in any form, (3) negotiable instruments (including checks, promissory notes,
and money orders) in bearer form, endorsed without restriction, made out to a fictitious payee,
or otherwise in such form that title thereto p asses upon delivery, (4) incomplete instruments
(including checks, promissory notes, and money orders) that are signed but on which the name
of the payee has been omitted, and (5) securities or stock in bearer form or otherwise in such
form that title thereto passes upon delivery. Monetary instruments do not include (i) checks or
money orders made payable to the order of a named person which have not been endorsed
or which bear restrictive endorsements, (ii) warehouse receipts, or (iii) bills of lading.
Thanks to Akak here. It was a domestic flight. Though in many US airports international and domestic departure gates are in the same terminals.
I've been contemplating doing the exact same thing with Silver Eagles. Not that I actually have said Eagles.
Yeah me too, but I'd have to pull them up from the bottom of the lake, first. Sigh.
Yeah me too, but I'd have to pull them up from the bottom of the lake, first. Sigh.
I understand why this guy did this but I would be very reluctant to give up my silver while FRNs still work
Massachusetts taxes you on the bluebook value of your car rather than the purchase price. So you can end up paying more in taxes than for the car itself.
Why didn't Simon Black simply trade in his iridium-heli-rocket-cycle? I hear it's got lousy MPG. He could have bought another mountain range in Uruguay - and all of its quaint inhabitants - for that junk bag. dude?
Ain't no mountains in Uruguay ... they don't call it 'Iowa by the sea' for nothin' ...
I don't think there are any iridium-helo-rocket-cycles, either. I think you missed the point.
West Point is fixin' to revoke Simon's alleged diploma I hear.
I don't know about the rest of you but the terms Fraud and Federal Offence come to mind.
We all know the government doesn't let anything like the law to get in its way, so in that respect you're right.
I investigated getting myself a pay cut from £2500 a month to £10 a month paid in gold sovereigns. I'd pay no tax that way.
HM Revenue and Custgoms don't allow that though, and my boss didn't like the idea of me having a fiat-pound payrise each month.
+1 to Sofa King for posting the bitterest pill on the thread.
Too bad when Corzine loses $1.4B of customer money, the words Fraud and Federal Offense don't seem to apply.
Should have been tased at the airport, for being so stupid as to be intending to sell silver coins for a depreciating asset, in a manipulated PM market.
This idiot will regret this.
Instead of 1,000 I suspect 100 silver quarters will buy the same vehicle in the near future. Maybe even 10 at some point.
That's what I'm thinking. Trade silver for a car!? No way.
I guess he needed a car. Several years ago I bought a lot of 1 oz silver bars for $14 each. Almost two years ago, I paid for a few things with some of them when they were at about $40 and got credited $42 each for them. With the cash I "saved" on that, I later bought more to "replace" them for $28. It sounds to me like Simon got a great deal on the car. He might have sold it for a profit, or got his money back on it at least, then bought more silver at $26. Just sayin'
A lot of supposition in your thesis regarding Simon's transaction(s). Regarding your own scenario; you bought at $14, sold at $42 (either using a portion of proceeds or the bars themselves to purchase other things), then bought back in at $28. If no additional monies were added; you now have fewer ounces at higher average cost than your initial purchase. If I'm wrong, show me your math.
You gotta' be kidding me...
Sunk costs are sunk. What I originally paid for them is irrelevant in this context. Why wouldn't I sell an item, any item, for $42, if I can turnaround a little later and repurchase it for $28?
But okay, I accept your challenge:
Say I bought 10 at $14 = $140 cost. And I didn't sell them, but kept them. I'd now have 10 worth about $34 each, so I'd be up $200.
Instead, I bought 10 at $14, then sold that 10 for $42, for a profit of $280. I then repurchased them at $28, so I'm up another 10 x ($34 - $28) = $60.
So if I had done it your way, I'd be up $200. Doing it as I did, I'm up $280 + $60 = $340.
And in either case, I still have 10 ounces of silver.
It wasn't "supposition" about Simon's actions. The point was that it's absurd to say he's "stupid" for what he did, not because I know all that he did, but because sprrdr doesn't.
If both math and language are this hard for you, "word problems" in math must be really tough;)
No. That is not what you wrote in your post. You wrote: "I paid for a few things with some of them". So subtact out the portion that you paid and try again.
Holy shit you're even slower than I thought.
Say that as you "advise" I bought 10 at $14 = $140 cost. And I didn't sell them, but kept them. I'd now have 10 worth about $34 each, so I'd be up $200.
Instead, I bought 10 at $14, then ran up a restaurant tab of $420. I could have paid with cash of $420, but instead paid with 10 oz (which if I had sold at the time, I'd have only received $400 for, as I said.) So what did that dinner cost me? $140. That's what I paid for the silver that I used to pay a $400 restaurant tab, instead of $420 cash. So I gained $280 for doing it that way.
I then took that gain and repurchased them at $28, so I'm up another 10 x ($34 - $28) = $60.
So if I had done it your way, I'd be up $200. Doing it as I did, I'm up $280 + $60 = $340.
And in either case, I still have 10 ounces of silver.
Maybe this will help ya' Vincent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungibility
"Fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are capable of mutual substitution, such as crude oil, shares in a company, bonds, precious metals, or currencies.
Thank you. You have made my point. You either handed the restaurant your 10 oz physical (or cashed them in at your local coin dealer for the $420 then paid your restauirant tab with it.). Either way you no longer have the 10 oz. or any cash. So to buy 10 oz at $28 you have to come with cash from your pocket. Which is what I originally stated: you either have fewer bars or new ones at a higher cost.
Vincent, I just realized all that might be too complicated for you.
I've spent:
$140 10 ounces of silver
$280 10 ounces of silver
------
$420 total outlay
I've received or still have:
$340 current value of 10 oz of silver
$420 value of a great meal for a group of people
------
$760 profit total revenue (yeah, $420 of it was a great meal I chose to buy just like Simon chose to buy his car.)
$760 - $420 = $340 profit (that pesky number again;)
Under your advice I would have spent:
$140 10 ounces of silver
And I would have received and still have:
$340 10 ounces of silver at today's value
------
$200 profit (there's that pesky number again;)
p.s. $340 is more than $240
There is that out of pocket expense again that you ignored in your first post. You now say you bought 10 oz at $28. That's my point...you came with additional cash. No way around it. You now have 10 oz of silver with a current value of $34 but you paid $28 for those ounces. Period.
Period? No, Vincent, you conveniently forget that I also got a $420 meal out of it (that I paid for from the profit I made on my initial "trade" where I bought silver for $140 that I sold for a meal worth $420.)
It's really not that complicated Vincent. The first trade on silver made me $280. The second trade on silver has so far made me $60.
Here...let's do it your way:
$140 for 10 oz silver at $14
$420 for meal at restaurant (paid for with 10 oz silver @ $42)
------you now have no silver and no cash.
* this is where you make my point (again). Go back up to your post immediately above this one. You wrote "$280 outlay" that is a second out lay. You bot 10 oz at $28 using new money. Which, again, is what I originally said. You now own 10 oz at $28.
Are you REALLY this fucking stupid?
I still have 10 ounces of silver. I also got a $420 meal.
I've spent $140 for silver, and also $280 for silver. Total I've spent = $420 ($140 + $280).
So yes, I have 10 ounces of silver, and a $420 meal. All for just $420 in cash. So essentially, the cash I spent ($140 + $280) paid for the $420 meal. I still have the silver valued at $340 (10 oz x $34 current value per ounce.)
I can't believe I just let another dimwit draw me into explaining a 3rd grade math problem, after I just swore off that yesterday. I must be insane. Heh.
No, not stupid. But you have changed your scenario several times and each time I point it out you resort to ad hominem attacks. You have now said in your last several post that you had to come with an ADDITIONAL $280 to end up with 10 oz. For the last time...go back and read my original post: you either have fewer bars orr you came with additional cash. By your own admission, in your scenario, you came with additional cash. The $280 is an "outlay" per you.
"ad hominem attacks"
It's Fight Club, dimwit. I can't punch your stupid face thru the screen. Haha
Ok, one more try dimwit, and that's it, cuz we're clogging up the board. This is fight club but once you're knocked out, it's time to stop, and your lights have been out for a while now.
How much cash have I doled it for EVERYTHING? Silver both times, meal, everything?
Vincent: "$140 + $280 = $420 total you've spent"
Right. What do I have to show for it?
Vincent: "10 oz of silver...and you got a great meal valued at $420 too."
So then I spent $420 total (you've said that five times yourself, and that's correct.) And for that $420, I got a $420 meal PLUS I STILL HAVE 10 OUNCES OF SILVER WORTH $340 (that pesky number yet again!)
I paid $420 for a meal and 10 oz of silver. Vincent? I spent $420 total, for a meal (valued at $420) PLUS 10 oz of silver. Vincent? My total cash outlay, for the silver and the meal, was $420, and for that $420, I got a $420 meal, and 10 ounces of silver that I still have.
Vincent? Your brain is escaping. Go catch it. And then be a man and admit you got smoked bitch! hahaha
Don't take "ad hominem attacks" personally Vincent. This is Fight Club, not HuffPo. I get my ass handed to me around here too sometimes...and admit when I'm wrong...but that just hasn't happened today. Yet.
Agree with let's quit clogging the board...this is stupid. I do not disagree with your math! Where you keep missing my point is in the introduction of the ADDITIONAL $280. For the last time, or I will be coming through this screen :-) go back to my original response to you: you will either have fewer bars or higher average cost UNLESS YOU COME WITH ADDITIONAL CASH. The $280 is the ADDITIONAL cash you had to have to end up with 10 oz. You came with ADDITIONAL cash. Fight on Bitch! Good Luck.
NOW you're fightin' like a MAN! Alright! A stupid man, but a man. Heh!
Answer this then: How much have I spent, total?
and
What do I have to show for it?
You're having such a problem with this because you're unnecessarily conflating two separate transactions and getting lost in the process.
I made two trades. I bought 10 oz of silver for $14 and sold them for $42. Profit? It's first grade arithmetic. $280.
MONTHS LATER, I bought 10 oz again, this time at $28. I still have it and it's value is $34. Profit? $60.
What's the total profit on these two disctinct trades? $340. RIGHT? Vincent? Vincent?
(the fact that I spent $420 on a meal is beside the point, as was the fact that Simon spent what he did on that car.)
TWO TRADES VINCENT.
BOUGHT AT 14, SOLD AT 42.
MONTHS LATER: BOUGHT AT 28. HOLDING AT 34.
It's like if you bought a Brain for $100 today and sold it for $200 tomorrow. Then, in six months, bought another brain for $150, and sold it for $250. Both times, you made a profit. More profit than if you hadn't sold the first and then bought it again.
And if you didn't sell it the second time, and were still holding that Brain, you'd have an "unrealized" profit on it, AND YOU'D HAVE A FUCKING BRAIN! Hahaha
There's no "profit" on the second deal. That's just asset appreciation. Profit comes after closing the trade.
Plus, you're an asshole.
If you'd read the entire discussion you'd know that I refered to it as "unrealized profit" a few times. Is that really all you've got after all that? Child-like sophistry? Pathetic. Try to learn something so you'll actually have some valuable insights or information. What are you, 11? And yes, I'm an asshole;)
Maybe -- I doubt it, but maybe - I can settle this.
You bought 10 units (X) at $14 per X or $14X and it equaled $140.
You sold 10X for $420, or $42X. You earned $28X.
One assumption would be that you could only re-enter the market with your original investment again, which is $140. So, no that X=$28, you'd only be able to afford 5X. In other words, when you went back to the buy coins, you'd only be able to buy 1/2 the amount you had sold if you were investing your original amount. Or, if you bought 5 ounces, you just averaged up in price. One point is, you can't go wrong if you continue to buy silver and the price continues to go up. That's also what people thought about real estate. However, I believe the former will continue to hold, while the later was based upon the greater fool theory, and all the greater fools went broke!
However, you made a smart move since few people could argue that buying something at $14 and selling at $42 wasn't a brilliant investment; the cash value tripled. Further, by selling them (and intending to buy them back) it could be said you simply shorted the silver and earned the difference between $42 and $28 - the cost at which you sold, less the cost you had to buy them back. In that case, you made $14 per ounce and paid $14 per ounce (originally) and you have 10 ounces at $28 per ounce! If silver remained at $28, you just ended up doubling your money - just as if you never went out to dinner or spent the 10 ounces to begin with. Does that make sense?
Basically, it's the difference between LIFO and FILO inventory. You can account for your items based upon the first in and last out, or vice-versa. Of course, when you are left with zero in inventory, it's irrelevant. So, from a trading standpoint or an accounting standpoint, you simply made good investments, but you end up ahead because you paid $28 for silver worth $28 per ounce, but you also got a great meal worth, theoretically, worth $420.
One last point - Considering the restaurant is still charging the same amount, you made a fucking killing. You got a $420 meal for $140 and saved $280 the night you ate out. However, you could have bought 20 ounces at $14 and now had them worth $560 and stayed home and eaten rice and beans.
Confusing shit. I hope you had a nice meal. Keep buying silver. Wow, I'm just really tired now.
"Does that make sense?"
Yes.
" However, you could have bought 20 ounces at $14 and now had them worth $560 and stayed home and eaten rice and beans."
Yep. I chose otherwise, just as Simon chose to realize his gains on silver by exchanging it for a car.
The irony of this thread is that it all began with a comment that Simon was some kind of idiot for using silver to buy a fucking car. And what's disturbingly apparent is so many readers approved that comment. People need to buy stuff sometimes. And I think there's nothing more truly patriotic, smart, and in line w/ ZH philosphy than to buy and sell with bullion when you can instead of with Benny Bux.
A lot of folks approved of that comment which attacked Simon, for one reason: They're so simple-minded, all it takes is someone to bash the sale of silver as opposed to its purchase, to get an up arrow, regardless of the foolishness of the statement, the context, or the gain the seller obtained from it. Were people who sold silver just over a year ago at $50, then bought it back a year later at $26, idiots?
There are a helluva lot of angry brokedicks who comment of "vote" on this site but are the mental equivalent of a pitbull. That is becoming more apparent by the day, unfortunately. Honestly, I wish Tylers and the guest posters had more time to call these idiots out for the angry know-nothing brokedicks they are, more often than they do.
"Brokedick" is not a state of financial condition. It's a state of mind. Rest assured that virtually all of the brokedicks who would junk Simon and green that utterly pig-headed comment calling him an idiot, have never bought bullion in any form in their life and wouldn't even know where to. EVERY SINGLE TIME posters here are talking about bullion, on a thread that is all about that, and someone starts talking about or asking what are some good sources for it...the same posters who were spouting off suddenly...crickets...or at best, throw out some link to some high profile dealer with a 10% markup that they saw advertised on Infowars or just found with a google search.
Good post BTW, although you just thoroughly confused Vincent even more than he was. It really isn't that complicated.
Why not? Money exists to facilitate trade. I think it is actually better to be trading silver back and forth. Isn't that what we want? To do business outisde of Fed's influence. If everyone hoards coins and does nothing with them, it's a mere speculation. If money flows just as the dollar does and actively competes with it, it's actual money.
... at least until the government lays eyes on the threat and spreads its loving arms.
But there was no "back and forth" trading of silver. An appreciating asset was traded for a depreciating asset. Again, a lot of supposition in the thesis. The people I know don't expect to ever go back to trading silver coins to buy 'things' and then receive back a smaller amount of silver as change.. The people I know have purchased PM's as a store of value against inflation/devaluation. To trade out of PM's now as we approach the debt ceiling, fiscal cliff, problems in Europe, Middle East, QEinfinity, etc, etc, etc.... would seem to defy the reason for a purchase of PM's in the first place. Unless, of course, one is a trader/speculator. But then isn't speculation most likely to be played using paper? Simon has led us to believe he is not a trader/speculator. And as is pointed out repeatedly here on ZH: "all things physical", "if you don't hold it you don't own it", etc...
Money gets spent. You buy food with money, you pay for shelter with money. Most things you spend money on loose value. I'm saying I have nothing against spending silver and think more people should be actively exchanging goods and services using it.
If you have paper, go ahead and use it. Gresham's law applies. Get rid of your worst money first and then proceed upwards.
What I would do is earn cash, convert it into PM's (not knowing when I would actually need to spend) and then spend PM's when the time comes. No shame in that. No illogicality. The only hit is the margin initially charged by the PM dealer, but that can be made up for when you negotiate your final sale. The dealer marked the con up by 10%? Feel free to do the same! Charge more if you want to. It's all negotiable.
Regarding "you don't hold it, you don't own it", I agree. To that I'd add, even things you hold you don't always own. Prime example - real estate. Owning the house is meaningless without the ability to own land it stands on.
Holding an asset is good. Keepign it mobile and out of sight is even better.
I'm not trying to argue. I'm merely agreeing with the auuthor and the title of the article: One Very Strange Use For Silver. And agreeing with the comment of spdrdr from above.
p.s. Agree re real estate.
Tyler, Vincent seems to have a message for you:
"You guys need to be consistent, and tell people that once they buy silver, they MUST NOT resell if for a profit, even if they believe they can later repurchase it at a lower price. Not even just some of it. Once bought, they MUST keep ALL of it until the SHTF. Otherwise, they're breaking Fight Club rules. Bitchez."
Vincent, "Brokedick" is not a statement of financial condition, it is a state of mind. Just sayin'
With the return of sub-prime car loans, just about anyone can get a 0% 60 month term car loan. Why give away good silver when the Bernanke has arranged for you to borrow the money for free? And likely pay it back in hyper-inflated dollars.
Sheesh, just buy more silver again, no big deal
While in principle I agree with you, an accurate judgement requires knowing what the vehicle taxes are for $1500 vs. $25,000 in his state.
Tax cannot be avoided as suggest by the author. In Florida, I know suspect valuations are sent for audit. The DMV will ensure a reasonably minimum for a car based on the model, year, and mileage. If you are challenged and lose there is a substantial penalty.
You are correct. Those thiefs are no fools.
I find that it's worth buying vehicles out of lease fleets as that minimizes the amount of digging on their part. Many explanatory forms can be avoided if the car's traded below determined market value. I've seen forms being prepped and thrown out when insitutional lease was mentioned (like a muni fleet or a rental shop). Does not hold true for private leases though.
I haven't done enough digging to find out why that is the case.
I betcha it's because of all the taxes/fees that were already collected for those "fleet-leasing" deals.
Huge boatloads of money have to change hands for a company to maintain 100 leased vehicles, and I'm sure the State has its finger on the scale for a lot of those transactions.
Between one individual and another, they have no way of knowing what could have gone on. But a place like Hertz is going to have thousands of pages of paperwork documenting every ding and filled tank.
SILVER, bitchez!
That is all.
It must have taken a long time to collect 1,000 pre-1965 quarters.
Hoarding silver is natural after fiat paper comes in. As a result, 40 years later you can buy 90% silver at a lot of places.
One can buy a 1000.00 face value bag of them..
Not really. You see, part of Simon Black's legacy family property used to be a pleasure park for well-heeled oil tycoons. On this park was a 1-acre artesian seltzer water fountain that said well-heeled oil tycoons would pitch odd bits of silver (that they first pried out from under their shoes and shook out of scarves and such) into for luck.
Simon simply rented a canal-dredger company, dug up the acreage, and ran the subsequent cubic megatons of muck through a very sensitive filtration mechanism that chemically identified the silver by detecting the gamma-radiating meteorite isotopes in that occurred naturally in the dies use to stamp old coins.
He then isolated the now smaller masses of muck, carted them to Uruguay via hovercraft, and set his mountaintop fiefdom to work picking through the muck for silver, which kept them well-occupied in the dry season when the snozgobblers and the vermicious k'nids preclude any sort of agriculture. A win-win.
See? It's just that easy.
And all at a cost of five dollars.
At first you sounded like you know what your talking about until you got to the part that Simon transported the masses of muck to uruguay via hovercraft. Everybody knows he uses a teleporter. DUH!
I just checked the ^%$#* Kitco site again. It's still goin' up.
I'm putting a keyboard shortcut to that site.
I'd like a few bars to try and convince Daniella to run off with me.
I just checked the ^%$#* Kitco site again. It's still goin' up.
I'm putting a keyboard shortcut to that site.
I'd like a few bars to try and convince Daniella to run off with me
Why do that when you can have American prices 24-7-365, go to Lear Capital, and download Exact Price(requires downloadong Adobe Air), but it's free.
Just do not BUY from them....................they are too expensive, and hold your orders WAY too long.
Wouldn't work in OK because you are taxed on the BB Value no matter what you paid.
I have wondered what form to own gold and silver.
If the federal govt decides to move against the metals in some way, might we be somewhat better protected by owning gold and silver eagle coins? It's just currency, right?
And when they start the wealth tax and ask how much wealth one has -- well, I believe the 1 oz gold eagle says $50. That seems like the number to put on the form. $5,000 of the right kind of currency might be worth a little more (like $180,000).
"And when they start the wealth tax and ask how much wealth one has -- well, I believe the 1 oz gold eagle says $50. That seems like the number to put on the form. "
Why on earth would anybody report any amount of PMs in their posesion on a form such as this?
Not reporting PMs. Reporting on the currency line - since it's currency (at least that's what it indicates on the coin).
maples, libertads, loons, philharmonics....doubt that they can "recall" non US currency
They won't specify any currency whatsoever.
They will just tell you to "redeem" your gold or be incarcerated.
Somewhere deep in the Patriot Act a distinction was drawn between bullion gold and "antique numismatic" gold where more than half the value was *not* the value of the metal.
If there's a seizure of private gold, one might expect that distinction to come into play, and perhaps the swells will be allowed to keep their coin collections.
http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1196605589.php
But...if they confiscate, wouldnt the numismatic value of any coin go up?
This specific "case" has been tried many times in the US. It's been ruled to be an attempt at tax evasion.
No reason to expect you're suddenly going to start getting away with it--we have this thing in the US legal system called "precedent."
The confusion only comes in when you start thinking there should be a relationship between "moral" and "legal."
There was a guy a while back who was paying his employees with $1 silver eagles and paying employment taxes based on nominal value. There didn't need to be a law against it, the IRS simply didn't like it, and fined based on market value, so i am told.
It's not that the IRS "simply didn't like it" it's that it was very clearly tax fraud. Do five minutes of googling about face values on those coins and you have your answer.
"Tax fraud" is a sentence in itself.
It's also a redundant phrase.
On topic of silver (but off topic as far as this story):
I'm big time in the 'one only owns it if one holds it' camp as far as PMs, and strongly think those who are playing with paper metal are going to in the not too far future get hammered, because there very much is a musical chairs aspect to these turbulent times. I've got a decent stack, but am not at home and do not want to have phyzz. with me at the place I'm at (not secure enough), so I got an account, and, at moment I got news that QE-infinity was announced, bought USLV. It's done well, but I just wanted to hear any take on USLV vs. say AGQ. PSLV seems like a solid, relatively trustworthy choice, too, but it has these premiums that have it underperform. Do these 3x leveraged ETFs/ETNs decay only when it is a roller coaster or big series of down days? That's what I think happens there. Any opinions? I also am thinking about investing in mining companies, or playing NUGT or something like that. Would appreciate any takes/experiences.
Thanks
Do these 3x leveraged ETFs/ETNs decay only when it is a roller coaster or big series of down days?
They decay rapidly under all conditions and should never be held for any significant period of time. They even decay as they go up in price. They're basically for momo players only.
My take: Read the prospectus and know your tax rules. Almost all types of precious metals holdings, including ETFs are taxed (capital gains) at a higher rate (28%) than other investments (15%). I trade a bit in PM ETFs in an IRA where capital gains taxes are not a factor. This is betting money in amounts that won't change my life if I lose it. Check out tfmetalsreport.com for a ton of opinions, takes and experiences.
Sigh. Again with this bit of misinformation.
Gains on precious metal holdings are ONLY taxed at the 28% rate if one's personal income tax bracket is already at or above 28% --- for those of more modest income, PM gains are simply taxed at one's prevailing ordinary income tax rate.
"There is no morality anymore in the law."
LOL, you don't say!
Kyle Bass would be proud.
Should the "full faith and credit" of the federal government suffer a heart attack, people will fall back on tangible assets to determine their worth. In that case, one would expect metals to play a crucial part. Real Gold for wealth retention, Silver for everyday use, copper for change and lead to protect it all. Nickle is also vital for creating those fine stainless steel blades!
Nickels..now worth 5.5 cents in base metals..
Nickels...The next '64 removal of base metals from US currency?
Keep it quiet man! Do not alert the masses about this arbitrage opportunity. Ssshhhh!
It's possible nickels are an energy source too:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/09/nickel-coin-lenr-experiment/
I've called those cocksuckers over at the IRS before, asking them how Silver coinage is taxed. After literally 45 minutes on hold I finally received my answer. They said the coins must be taxed on the Silver market value and not face value. Remember that Vegas man who was paying his employees in US bullion coins and was only claiming the face value of the coins for taxes? Well they cracked down on his ass hard, swat-teamed his whole office & staff guns drawn like the crazy cocksuckers they are. And now he's in jail. I hope this guy got away with this transaction. But never underestimate those purveyors of evil at the IRS and what they'll do to steal your money.
I upped you just for the multiple c*cksucker usage. Thanks Al.
Seriously, what else are we supposed to call them??
Ah... OFFICIAL COCKSUCKERS!!
That's 'Officer Cocksucker, SIR!' to you ...
Think about this for a moment... if it is at the value of silver, then the precident is that if silver/gold is ever confiscated, then it must be at the metal content value and not face value. I'd try to find a precident and tuck it away for future use.
+1 for language ability!
They will confiscate it and exchange it at the rate of "New Dollars", or Ameros, or whatever name they give it.
And you can take precedent and chuck it out the window.
I call anyone who works for Fed or the IRS a Fedophile.
Bernanke and Krugman - 2 prime Fedophiles right there with their typecast financial predator beards.
The headline caught my attention. But when I realized the author was Goldmember Simon Black "Mystery Man" and ex-pat world traveler and super investor extraordinaire, I skipped to the comments.
Silver is a great investment. Period. That's all. The end. Have a nice day.
Yup, right up until it isn't.
And when would that be? Before or after the inevitable fiat currency collapse? Iranians wish they had purchased gold and silver with both fists. Inflation 40% this week alone.
Good luck to the next person who tries getting through TSA with big bag of quarters.
A "two bit whore"?
"Legal", "illegal" and "law" represent no sacrosanct ideals anymore, not written in stone. There's nothing uniquely "fair" or "just" about law...nothing impartial, ethical or especially worthy of respect.
All they are is relative terms for rules put in place based on the power the imposer of those rules possesses.
Laws are merely someone's rules enforced by the gun...that's all.
The complete law of natural law, can be stated succinctly - I believe the following definition is good enough to replace all the laws of all states.
1) Whosoever infriges the property of another human being without their consent, commits an unlawful act.
2) A human beings property is their body, which they inherit at birth and all things contingent upon it, including their labor, products of their labor, speech, idea's and the mind itself.
3) A human beings property also includes all properties voluntarily transferred to them willingly and with full understanding by another human being.
4) All human beings have an equal interest in the natural world that sustains life, including the sunlight, air, cycle of living things, water and the earth itself.
2) A human beings property is their body, which they inherit at birth and all things contingent upon it, including their labor, products of their labor, speech, idea's and the mind itself.
I think I just found the flaw. Nice try, though.
I fully expect a "transaction fee or tax" on the redemtion on gold and silver coins to be enacted in the future.
However, the palladium coin with Barry's mug on it will be exempt.
That coin can't be released too soon as far as I am concerned.
This may work on a small scale, but if The Man finds out about it, prepare for the shaft.
Robert Kahre was paying his employees in gold eagles, and claimed he didn't have to file tax forms because the nominal (ie, face) value of his payments were below the IRS' threshold. What do you think happened?
http://www.rapidtrends.com/robert-kahre-vs-the-irs-and-doj/
Bobby Kahre is, at the time of this writing, at FCI Lompoc (a federal prison), and isn't scheduled to be released until 2023.
FUCK THE MAN!!!!
all ya'll mother fuckers who out there continiuing to live n fear of the fucking man r getting exactly what u deserve and will contiue...
if i cant b free id rather die...the 1st step is shunning their worthless debt coupons and stacking "real money"...
FUCK YOU BERNANKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm with you Kaiser. I don't have a death wish but like most of the poeple who post here, have had it up to here. I've seen situations where death is not such a bad thing.
Yes, I remember reading a story about someone from that state paying employees in junk metal coins but paying face value taxes.
I can't see how this would work on a new car. For taxes They usually give a bit of wiggle room in price especially used car value, but a new car would set off red flags during the registration process.
Yes, I remember reading a story about someone from that state paying employees in junk metal coins but paying face value taxes.
I recall the story also, he's doing time now...................got caught.
When the system does finally collapse I'm sure the government will give it's people a public service announcemt to let them know their only way to make an honest survival is to revive and trade again in the real silver/gold coin money....Just kidding. They'll confiscate and try to put honest people in prsison like they always do but the black market will survive and thrive like it always does when everything else goes to shit...on another not I think it is still technicaly legal in this country for a free man to sell his labor or goods privately to another private citizen for whatever barter they agree upon...It's when you get into the public relm of commerce that will get you in trouble.
It will definitely be different this time around:
1. Only 2% of investors/survivalists take possession of physical metals. This means the government can only go after small banks and private vault storage to get any meaningful amounts.
2. People are flat ass broke. The average american maybe 10 ounces of silver and 2 ounces of gold in jewelry, family silverware, etc. There is nothing for them to trade in to get dollars or what ever the new currency becomes.
3. In 1929, 80 of Americans lived in rural settings with rural skills. in 2012, it's 80% in burbs and cities with no rural skills to speak of.
4. There are definitely more sociopaths among us today and lots more guns.
Civil War 2.0 will be like nothing ever seen before.
Some of us "sociopaths" are on the good guys team. We prefer the term "sheepdog".
It's going to get exponentially more difficult to resist with 10,000 armed drones in the air - coming soon to a neighborhood near you. (My guess is that they won't be too big an issue once the electricity goes off for good, so keep your head down for a few weeks...)
I agree about the drones, but the government will use those to protect itself. I am more concerned about the burbs vs. the urbans, because if the government can't or won't supply enough food, that's exactly where it's going.
"Only 2% of investors/survivalists take possession of physical metals."
Hey, I'm finally part of the 2%!!! As far as Civil War 2.0, I'm ready for that too. 5.56 and 7.62 are my friends.
The government won't confiscate anything--they'll put a 90%+ capital gains tax on precious metals and be done with it.
That occured to me as I reaad the post. When the coins were converted it triggered a taxable event, i.e. the capital gain on the original purchase price vs. market price of the coins. The IRS is very clear about this.
yeah, but in all seriousness, fuck the IRS.
Right, that story makes no sense.
It seems like a trick. But who knows what price he bought them for? regardless of the level of tax, he did create a taxable event.
Most states no longer trust the person registering the used to car to state how much they paid and rely on a "Blue Book" value. You can apply for a lower fee if you can prove the vehicle is damaged or is in some way less than that value.
Bravo!! I'm surprised you didn't get more of a hassle from the TSA at the airport. Well done sir!!
Ever thought of just burning all those volumes of chains called laws? Now that is a book burning we can get behind baby!!!!!!
Inflation adjusted, per capita government spending has been going down for 40 years, except possibly the last couple years as Bernank tries to prevent a deflationary collapse.
The problem is the world is running out of resources, the US empire is collapsing, and the heydays of yesteryear are gone ... FOREVER.
Across these ‘free’ nations, the law is selectively enforced, selectively applied, and completely set aside whenever it pleases the state.
_____________________
When reading this 'american' author, self proclaimed world round tripper, you always get this feeling of an infant discovering the world for the first time.
Could title his blog "an american discovering americanism for the first time"
Djeee, selective enforcement of law is 'american', this from day one...
This is an 'american' world. Get a grip.
When reading this Chinese Citizenism author, self proclaimed acid tripper, you always get this feeling of an infant defecating in his diaper for the first time.
Could title his post "a Chinese Citizenism troll discovering insanitation, blobbing-up and kneejerk anti-American bigotry for the first time"
Djeee, selective blame-placing on 'americans', this from day one...
This is just more AnusMonotonousitizenism. Get a grip.
The car dealer's an idiot. He should have taken the bag of quarters and then signed the paperwork for $1500, then gone and done whatever he wanted with them. Now he's going to be looking his shoulder for the IRS because he did everything in the wrong goddamn order...either that or Simon is getting worse at making up stories.
This doesn't make any sense. Instaed of transporting all of that physical silver why didn't he just sell to a local shop prior to making his trip? What's the difference if he sells here or there? It's not like the dealer accecpted teh physical as cash payment.
You don't get it. The TSA agent sees a bag of quaters valued at 25 cents a piece. He looks like a slot monkey. The TSA agent is too stupid to release the real value of the coins is MUCH higher.
Besides, try going through an airport with more than $200 dollars in cash. You are going to get a finger up the ass, and most likely have your cash stolen from you.
Just the other day I wanted to pay off my car loan, which was approximately 11,000. In order for me to get a bank check, I had to fill out a form explaining exactly what the money was for.
America is gone, welcome to West China.
Interesting. The dealer can probably claim a loss on the car and will owe short-term collectible capital gains tax for the coin sale (same as personal income.). You don't get to claim a loss or gain on the silver coins because you used them as currency thereby avoiding what would probably have been a long-term collectible gain tax of 28%. Legal??? Should be, but I'm sure the IRS could argue persuasively that you have profited without being taxed.
Sorry, pal. The law has determined that fair market value governs transactions not game playing with 90% silver. Just if you happen to end up in court on the issue, no judge will side with you and your lawyer will have to negotiate a plea. Bad research here sorry to say...
USA will be just like Greece and Europe with all the laws, license this, bylaw that, certified by them, dissalowed by that.
Every time I look the laws the IRS, the reporting is always, consistently changing. Its just retarded, and the thing is, that with all these "consumer" protection laws- the consumer is getting fucked more than ever.
Does it pay to understand the distinction between unlawful and illegal?
Si Seigniorage.
http://tradewithdave.com/?p=9915
http://tradewithdave.com/?p=7228
So silly. At the end of the day, the problem isn't with the debt held by the FED. The problem is with all the debt held by OTHERS.
Tell CHINA you'll buy their bonds back with bills and then throw 'em a $2T coin.
Good luck.