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Is This Why Americans Have Lost The Drive To "Earn" More

Tyler Durden's picture


In the recent past we noted the somewhat startling reality that "the single mom is better off earning gross income of $29,000 with $57,327 in net income & benefits than to earn gross income of $69,000 with net income and benefits of $57,045." While mathematics is our tool - as opposed to the mathemagics of some of the more politically biased media who did not like our message - the painful reality in America is that: for increasingly more Americans it is now more lucrative - in the form of actual disposable income - to sit, do nothing, and collect various welfare entitlements, than to work. This is such an important topic that we felt it necessary to warrant a second look. The graphic below quite clearly, and very painfully, confirms that there is an earnings vacuum of around $40k in which US workers are perfectly ambivalent toward inputting more effort since it does not result in any additional incremental disposable income. With the ongoing 'fiscal cliff' battles over taxes and entitlements, this is a problematic finding, since - as a result - it is the US government that will have to keep funding indirectly this lost productivity and worker output (via wealth redistribution).


As we noted before (details below):

We realize that this is a painful topic in a country in which the issue of welfare benefits, and cutting (or not) the spending side of the fiscal cliff, have become the two most sensitive social topics. Alas, none of that changes the matrix of incentives for most Americans who find themselves in a comparable situation: either being on the left side of minimum US wage, and relying on benefits, or move to the right side at far greater personal investment of work, and energy, and... have the same disposable income at the end of the day.

Naturally, the topic of wealth redistribution is paramount one now that America is entering the terminal phase of its out of control spending, and whose response to hike taxes in a globalized, easily fungible world, will merely force more of the uber-wealthy to find offshore tax jurisdictions, avoid US taxation altogether, and thus result in even lower budget revenues for the US. It explains why the cluelessly incompetent but supposedly impartial Congressional Budget Office just released a key paper titled "Share of Returns Filed by Low- and Moderate-Income Workers, by Marginal Tax Rate, Under 2012 Law" which carries a chart of disposable income by net income comparable to the one above.

But perhaps the scariest chart in the entire presentation is the following summarizing the unsustainable welfare burden on current taxpayers:

  • For every 1.65 employed persons in the private sector, 1 person receives welfare assistance
  • For every 1.25 employed persons in the private sector, 1 person receives welfare assistance or works for the government.

The punchline: 110 million privately employed workers; 88 million welfare recipients and government workers and rising rapidly.

And since nothing has changed in the past two years, and in fact the situation has gotten progressively (pardon the pun) worse, here is our conclusion on this topic from two years ago:

We have been writing for over a year, how the very top of America's social order steals from the middle class each and every day. Now we finally know that the very bottom of the entitlement food chain also makes out like a bandit compared to that idiot American who actually works and pays their taxes. One can only also hope that in addition to seeing their disposable income be eaten away by a kleptocratic entitlement state, that the disappearing middle class is also selling off its weaponry. Because if it isn't, and if it finally decides it has had enough, the outcome will not be surprising at all: it will be the same old that has occurred in virtually every revolution in the history of the world to date.

But for now, just stick head in sand, and pretend all is good. Self-deception is now the only thing left for the entire insolvent entitlement-addicted world.

* * *

Full must read presentation: "Welfare's Failure and the Solution"


Some other thoughts on this topic: DOES IT PAY, AT THE MARGIN, TO WORK AND SAVE?


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Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:29 | 3027144 knukles
knukles's picture


Bait and switch

Tax the millionaires.

And just for shits and grins call that $250k for a couple.
Which in NY, CA, etc., is way the fuck not not even a 1%er.  (Might look pretty damned nice in the middle of the Ozarks)

Ya know, I can handle the ideology, can deal with it, but the downright evil shit like this goes on angers the piss outta me.
The Republicans are hypocrites, but these Dems are just plain fucking evil.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:17 | 3027226 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The dims (as presently constituted) are evil.

Pelosi is fine with giving Presbo an unlimited debt ceiling at his discretion? She said it. She also doesn't like reading her own legislation that she pushes. Reid, dirt bag that he is, refuses to pass any budget for four years...apparently distrustful of the public finding out (through debating the actual budget line items) what is being spent where.

Fuck em...let it burn...they need us, we do not need them.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:32 | 3027259 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

"The dims (as presently constituted) are evil."

Agreed, on a national level, but only if we can also agree to exempt Kucinich and a few other outliers who believe in freedom from the MIC/police state.  I voted for Ron Paul even though I disagree with his view on free markets.  In my opinion, the Blue and Red Team properly constituted would both agree to dismantle the military/police state machine, and leave us all to argue over the role of government in the economic machine.   Could you imagine going down to the polls and actually thinking you vote would make a shit bit of difference?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:00 | 3027313 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"I voted for Ron Paul even though I disagree with his view on free markets."

I don't believe you voted for RP for one second.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:21 | 3027345 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Denial is one of the early steps if I recall.

You can live in your world of ideology, or you can try to change things.  You've chosen the former.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:38 | 3027374 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Denial is one of the early steps if I recall."

You would know.

"You can live in your world of ideology, or you can try to change things."

I am and have.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:50 | 3027174 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Large U.S. corporations are structured to enrich a few at the top, and those receiving dividends on shares that were issued long ago and that do nothing to raise capital for the company.  The problem is a tax and (lack of) shareholder-rights legal structure that encourages that behavior and that also rewards paying workers as little as possible.   Having said that, I agree with you that merely taxing corporate "profits" or income would be counter-productive.   As usual, the black and white answers are not the correct ones, but debating them makes for easy point-making for whichever ideology you wish to espouse.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:10 | 3027215 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"The problem is a tax and (lack of) shareholder-rights legal structure that encourages that behavior and that also rewards paying workers as little as possible."

You've never recieved a proxy in the mail? Having not, I assume you've never exercised your RIGHT as a shareholder for what the Compensation Committee allows. If its a "coup" involving theft maybe should have been more interested.

"Having said that, I agree with you that merely taxing corporate "profits" or income would be counter-productive. As usual, the black and white answers are not the correct ones, but debating them makes for easy point-making for whichever ideology you wish to espouse."

As usual, you're full of shit.

Here's a "black & white answer". Stop executive compensation in company publicly traded stock, make it in taxable wages like everyone else. Is that black & white enough for you? If you have a hard on for CEO's & board memebers "printing" themselves compensation, thats how you stop it.

Then stand back and watch the implosion and suffering 401k holders while being short...this is also the last time I'll say what needs to be done in this regard.

Now, YOU take it and run with it as your own...afterall, I'm Tea Party...douche.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:49 | 3027266 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

"Then stand back and watch the implosion and suffering 401k holders while being short."

Exactly.  Do you receive a proxy for each company's stock held by mutual funds in your 401K?  Mutual funds, hedge funds, trusts, etc own the large majority of most large companies' stocks.  An individual receiving a proxy statement has exactly zero chance of affecting the compensation of the executives of GE, Apple, Halliburton, etc.  Fund managers are never in a million years going to vote against the goose that lays their golden eggs.  Suggesting that proxy statements give individuals rights to challenge executive compensation -- as you do -- exemplifies the simplicity of your thinking.

The oligarchs have successfully invested virtually everyone in their Matrix of multi-national corporations being the bulk of the U.S. economy.  Remember the expression, "What is good for GM is good for America?"  How about we eliminate the very concept of the corporation?  Why do we have a system of laws that allows the complete escape from personal responsibility of those who run multi-national enterprises?   Hint -- a few people make a shit ton of money from that system.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:57 | 3027308 nmewn
nmewn's picture

A corporation is there to separate the individual from personal financial loss. What you forget (or ignore) is the corporation is also there to protect the hourly employee from personal loss.

If an hourly employee accidently installs Item B where Item A was suppoesed to go...he is not personally liable, it was an accident, unintentional. The corporation assumes that liability.

You sure you're a business owner?...I trust your slip & fall insurance for your customers is paid up in full to that corporation ;-)

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:13 | 3027320 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

As usual, you are wrong.  An employee can be sued individually for his own wrongdoing.  Only shareholders and officers are protected by the corporate form.  Do you really not know that?   Holy shit.  ;(

The law of all states I think also holds the corporation responsible if the employee was acting in the course and scope of his employment.  Most individuals injured by an employee of a company sue the corporation because it has deep pockets and because corporate insurance policies cover the acts of employees, and they don't bother suing any individuals.  Obviously you do not own your own business.

Corporations have insurance to avoid liability of the corporation.  The same insurance could be purchased to protect against lawsuits against employees and managers were there no corporate form.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:35 | 3027365 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"An employee can be sued individually for his own wrongdoing."

I said...accidently...not "wrong doing"...implying malicious intent of...wrong doing. Very clever...but no cookie.

There is a multitude of case law on this if you would like to entertain them...from an employee not properly protecting open manholes to broken mayonaise jars in grocery store ailes.

The employee can be sued but unless there was flashing arrows erected for the customer or pedestrain to "Walk Here" WITH the ntent to cause harm to the public or the corpration is always resolved to the corporations liability.

Intent vs the employ of, LTER.

Some are 20-80...some are 60-40...or zero, victim vs corporation. No employee has ever been forced to pay personally for something he or she did without FIRST proving dereliction of assigned duties or malicious intent.

Perhaps you can find one for me? ;-)

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:43 | 3027380 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Again, wrong.  "Wrongdoing" = negligence.  If it is an accident that is not the result of negligence, neither the employee nor the employee will be held at fault.  If there was negligence by the employee, both the employee and employer can be held at fault.   Look it up, winker. 


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 23:05 | 3027412 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Dumbass...I don't know why even I bother.

"Wrongdoing" = negligence."

Ummm, no.

1: evil or improper behavior or action <cleared of any wrongdoing> 2: an instance of doing wrong

Wrongdoing carries WITH IT AN INTENT to do wrong.

Gawd you're fucking're a complete waste of my time.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 23:15 | 3027419 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

So you can't admit you were wrong?  Of course not.   

Employees of corporations can be sued individually for negligence.  Admit or deny winker?  If you admit, then you admit you were wrong.  If you deny, you admit that you care not about the truth and care only about defending your own ideology.  Which is it?

By the way, employers are not usually liable for the intentional wrongdoing of employees (there are exceptions, such as negligently hiring someone with a criminal past, negligent supervision, and others).  If you go to work for your employer (assuming you have one) and kill somone out of anger, your employer is not liable for your intentional wrongdoing unless he/she had a reason to know that you are violent, or failed to tell you to keep your gun at home, etc.  So your attempt to parse words is not only transparent, but as usual -- wrong.  ;(

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:34 | 3027880 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

No, you're fucking stupid.

The business will get sued; not necessarily because they're responsible, but because they have all the damn money. People usually sue to make some money...not likely when punking a 16 year old "negligent" employee, but much more so when they cast it as the corporation's responsibility to keep tab A out of slot B precisely because our economy must continue to function even in the face of ignorant drop-outs from Florida.

The small business will have insurance, the employee will be covered under said insurance if and only if they are performing the duties of their job as indicated. 

You've never heard of manslaughter or a wrongful death suit after an industrial "accident", Mewn? Get out more.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 13:01 | 3028127 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"You've never heard of manslaughter or a wrongful death suit after an industrial "accident", Mewn? Get out more."

You compariing an industrial "accident" to willful violation of the companies own safety procedures in that high risk enviroment? Yeah, industry is all about destroying its own infrastructure. Maybe you should get out more.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:43 | 3027377 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

Are you seriously asserting that a manufacturing employee is legally liable if they make an error, the product fails in some way and an individual is harmed?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:45 | 3027383 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Yes, if it could be somehow proved that the individual employee caused the error.  Employees are liable for their own negligence, period.  The corporate form does not protect them, though insurance generally does.  The corporate form does protect shareholders and management.  Are you seriously asserting that you don't know this?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 23:01 | 3027405 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

Show a single example please.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 23:06 | 3027413 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Read the law.  Or is that too complicated for you?  If so, then why in the fuck do you think you have something useful to say?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 23:24 | 3027438 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

As expected, you have no idea and can only resort to insults because you made an assertion that you are utterly incapable of backing up. You have no examples to back up your claim because it doesn't work that way and you are entirely too stupid to even realize it.

Rather than some vague general assertion about the law, provide a case of what you say actually happening and try to avoid your usual frothing non sequiturs about Ayn Rand.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 23:29 | 3027443 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Ignorance is bliss.  Or you could look it up.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 23:55 | 3027467 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

I actually work in manufacturing you ignoramus. It does not work that way, and beyond the voices in your head there is absolutely nothing to your statement that an individual employee can be sued if they make a bad widget that fails and causes death or injury due to their personal negligence. As with nearly every issue under the sun, you haven't the remotest idea what you are talking about.

Thanks for illustrating yet again the pointlessness of attempting debate with the mentally ill, the drug addled, or the intellectually challenged. In that sense you really are a walking hat trick.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 04:22 | 3027646 Kickaha
Kickaha's picture

Try woriking in law.  LTER is 100% right in every statement he has made in this thread.

We lawyers don't sue individual employees becuase when we file the case, we have no fucking idea which individual employees committed an act of negligence when making the defective product.  It's not like they sign their names to it.  Also, it is so expensive in terms of cost in bringing a product liability suit that you could never collect a Judgment from an average worker. You don't bring the lawsuit unless massive damages were suffered by the client.

Besides, the whole operation is covered by insurance, so you get insurance lawyers defending the case if you sue an individual or the company.  The insurance company then pays most of the judgment.  There are deductibles involved in some cases.

Want an example?  Resident at hospital leaves a clamp inside the abdomen.  Sue the doctor and sue the hospital.

The ignorance on this basic point of law is absolutely shocking.  Does anybody here really think that once you go to work for a corporation, you no longer have any personal responsibility whatsoever for your actions, and that signing a W-4 form is a grant of immunity from being sued?

LTER is also right about the company not being liable for the intentional misconduct of an employee unless it was misconduct ordered or sanctioned by management, or unless you can prove negligent hiring or supervision.  Imagine you own a small business.  You send an employee to the bank to deposit the days proceeds.  The employee decides that as long as he is going to be at the bank, he might as well pull out a shotgun and rob it.  There is no civil liability for the small businessman in that situation, nor should there be as a matter of public policy.  If your worker wants to commit a crime, there is no effective way the employer can prevent him from doing so.


Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:27 | 3027870 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

The example given was in manufacturing where it most certainly IS possible in the majority of cases to determine exactly who did what. A hospital employee leaving a clamp in was not the point of discussion, manufacturing was.

Your further excursion into theoreticals entirely failed to address the point. I asked for one example of a manufacturing employee being sued due the production of a faulty part. It is very often possible to determine exactly how and why a given widget failed, and if it was the fault of a production person to know exactly who they were.

I hope I havent given one of you legal cocksuckers any ideas, but your assertion that you can't tell who did what is not reality. In some cases you cannot, but in very many you most certainly can.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:36 | 3027886 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Employee tampers with bottles of Tylenol say.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 11:15 | 3027967 Central Bankster
Central Bankster's picture

I thought that happened and they sued the company, not the employee?

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 11:59 | 3028050 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Malicious intent. With the object to cause harm.

LTER and his new defense counsel are trying to conflate many different circumstances and words into one all encompassing legal theorem. The fact of the matter remains and my initial point stands, that the corporation is there to protect the individual from personal financial loss.

The employee is protected by the corporations insurance policies, provided he follows the standards set down for his/her employment. LTER's defense counsel has just confirmed that. We all assume the makers of Tylenol did not instruct the employee to tamper with their bottles, of course.  As an employee I don't carry a rider on my personal policy protecting the corporation who employs me. I also said an employee can be sued but as a practical matter the lawyer is looking for deeper pockets and his own compensation, which lies with the corporation and its insurance, thus levels of protection from financial loss for the individual.

But on to this conflation of words and their meanings, as I said, wrong doing does not equal accident...I even provided the definition of wrong doing. Then another term/word is introduced...negligence. Negligence does not imply intent to harm. Its just simply a deficiency in the expected level of performance or due diligence.

The upshot to all of this is, LTER's blind hatred of corporations has him using words with no utility to what was brought up...personal financial liability while in the employ of a corporation. The existence of it is a net positive to the individual, legally and financially.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:35 | 3027884 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

And the peons tend to be negative net worth.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 11:07 | 3027953 BurningFuld
BurningFuld's picture


Wed, 12/05/2012 - 22:10 | 3037944 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

As far as I know, it's never been done yet. I can't state a case where a cop has been sued personally for obvious violations in his/her duty. Does that make it impossible? Hardly. Like anything that you play with in the arena of the PTB, you better have deep pockets and a lot of time on your hands. Or you could simply stop playing in their arena. I stopped 12 years ago. I'll bet anything you still pay taxes and accept your sheephood on a daily basis.

Anyone can be sued PERSONALLY. Sheep just don't understand that. They think they are powerless. Learn how to use THEIR alleged authority AGAINST them. Frankly, it's a waste of time. I've got better things to do with my life than sue people or fret over multi-thousands of pages of tax code, etc.

There are a few truly brave souls who seriously challenge TPTB. Google a fellow by the name of Dean Clifford. Watch his vids and the shit he's gone through. He makes Winston Shrout look like a pussy.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 23:50 | 3027459 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

Police are corporate employees. Why are rogue cops not being sued individually for their wrongdoing?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:50 | 3027288 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

In actual fact, the only "fair" tax is a trasaction tax.  x% of ALL trasactions (buy/sell).  What that percentage is... I don't know but it would not have to be very high... I think it may put a stop to HFT as well.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:34 | 3027363 smiler03
smiler03's picture

 "Why a Tobin tax won't work".

I haven't put a link because it would be one of hundreds.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:12 | 3027219 GernB
GernB's picture

You seem to miss one critical point. Large corporations cant enrich squatt without consumers, because without consumers there is no money. It is consumers who decide whether the product of those wokers labor is worth what labor is paid, it is consumers who pay if that labor costs too much, it is consumers and laborers who pay the price when labor is priced out of the market, and it is consumers who pay corporate tax hikes. There is no other magic fountain from which money can come.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:19 | 3027228 adventuretime
adventuretime's picture

General Motors disagrees.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:39 | 3027269 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

You just brilliantly made my argument for why the pure free market doesn't work as a viable system.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:21 | 3027234 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

". . . corporations pass EVERY tax levied on to their customers (you & me)."

This is absolute fucking nonsense.  I was a corporate officer for nearly 20 years and we did not  "pass EVERY tax levied on to their customers".  We charged our customers as much as we thought we could get away with without our customers going to our competitors.   If that wasn't enough to pay the bills and stay in business, then oh fucking well -- too bad.  If that was enough to give ourselves big bonuses, then it was happy foot time.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:41 | 3027271 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"money too must be dear." hence the power of a gold standard..."it makes money dear...without making it non-existent." unlike say...our current variant...more "grab and go" indeed. "the best way to rob a bank is to own one"! maybe all we're suppose to complain about here is that they never said they were sorry for blowing up their banks? it's not like Congress ever asked them to apologize. You know..."what do you have to say to the American people before we inflate this bitch of an economy to hell and tax the snot out of them fine Goldman Saxon sir?" ... "uh...I'm sorry?" ... "Okay...thank you for that Mr. Big Shot Financial Guy. Now here's your trillion dollars. What do we have next on the agenda Mr. Chairman? War on the totality of Islam? EXXXXCELLENT! Who wants to go first?"

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 23:51 | 3027461 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

If all like businesses pay the same tax then those costs will be passed on as a cost of production. If a competitor can sell for lesser cost it would be due to other factors. Consumers will pay the lowest cost, not the highest, so any like expenses will go to the consumer. Do you think that the cost of crude does not influence the cost of gas or is it simply a coincidence that the two are linked. Sure, a business will charge as much as they can but will always be limited by their competition. Some corporations have successfully avoided taxation in order to become competitve to foreign competitors but their exemptions allow them to also have advantage to their US competitors. If your thesis were true, corporate profits would be unlimited as they could charge virtually anything they wanted, and also there would be no corporate failures. Taxes are an expense and will contribute to consumer costs. As a business person, if my taxes were reduced to zero i would eventually be forced to lower my prices because in a free market one of my competitors eventually would. It's what we like to refer to as the free market, or used to anyway.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 01:21 | 3027548 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Whoop, this was directed at me.

You Feral, are a another dumbass "corporate officer"...this is getting interesting now. In what corporation did you serve in? Is it still a profitable going concern?

I'm thinking

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 11:16 | 3027971 BurningFuld
BurningFuld's picture

Feral is absolutely correct in how successful business works. The better you are at defining the exact maximum amount you can extract from your customers the better you do. You do not have time to run through all your minor costs and try to pin them back to your pricing I mean are you kidding. Selling shit is an absolute art form. The better the artist you are the better you do. There is just so much involved in, volume,'s all fluid all the time.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 12:18 | 3028084 nmewn
nmewn's picture

He is correct when he says the object of any business is to maximize profit.

But that isn't the quote he chose to nit pick...which was...

Mine: ". . . corporations pass EVERY tax levied on to their customers (you & me)."

His: "This is absolute fucking nonsense."

And your defense of his...

"You do not have time to run through all your minor costs and try to pin them back to your pricing I mean are you kidding."

US federal and state corporate taxes are some of the highest in the world. This is not a "minor cost".

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 19:31 | 3028529 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

No it wasn't  It was a wafer fab operation.  It's a cyclical industry with large capital costs.  This is not the time to be in that industry.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 20:21 | 3028592 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Thanks for circling back around to this.

Feral, I really don't care what your former position was or how much you earned. Really I don't, it could have been a dollar a day or a billion dollars a day.

Corporate taxes is a cost NOT borne by executives or employees. It's a pass through tax on to the consumer/customer. You didn't pay it, the corporation did, thus saving you (as an executive/employee) buying power in the compensation the corporation paid to you for your service.

Too high and it makes the products produced become unaffordable.

To my way of thinking there shouldn't even be a corporate tax or an income tax. There should only be a point of sale federal tax. They have "hidden taxes" everywhere along the production chain now amounting to a VAT in everything except calling it that. It would be more transparent to see the tax at point of sale...but transparency is the last thing they want.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:14 | 3027845 Umh
Umh's picture

It seems to me that you just said you either pass the tax onto the consumer or go out of business. You are just nitpicking about also being able to pass on more than the tax amount.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:42 | 3027898 CaptainObvious
CaptainObvious's picture

Have you learned NOTHING in your time here?!  No, it would not be a start.  It would be the end.  Exhibit A:  France bumped its tax rate on millionaires to 75%, and immediately France was emptied of millionaires.  Exhibit B:  Commiefornia bumped its corporate tax and made the burden of regulations intolerable, so businesses slipped over the borders to Arizona, Nevada, and Texas.  The fat cats, as you call them, always have an escape pod gassed up and ready.  And the morons who write tax codes can never seem to understand that.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:37 | 3026976 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 It's not that/ it's Litigious " turncoat"  douchebag Lawyers, that are so poor they will sell thier Grand Mothers soul for a profit!

  Look up retarded in the Dictionary/ and J.D  aka Barrister is next to the definition!

   So now the global "Ambulance Chasing" cartel is on my ass/  Some lawyers- in certain fields are worth keeping<>

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:50 | 3027076 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

The litigious excesses in the U.S. cannot be overstated.

More attorneys per capita than any place in the world and we still have N.D.A.A., KELO vs. City of New London, and Jon Corzine roaming free.

Too many lawyers and lawsuits are one of the reasons so much employment has been shipped overseas.

The gas container company "Blitz" was put out of business over people suing them for not realizing that gas in a gas can may actually burn and hurt someone.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:32 | 3027154 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Thanks Ebworthen/  I think you hit the nail on the head. I need to work on my delivery system.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:37 | 3027165 Matt
Matt's picture

Why the hate for the lawyers? They're just responding to the incentives the system is providing them. I would say that, as measured by the incentives system, they are actually pretty smart.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:54 | 3027193 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Oh man, I could have funded your Law School loans with the legal fees I have paid to run businesses. No litigation, just setup fees and mitigation/arbitration fees. Every law firm wants some "equity" in the game.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:03 | 3027205 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

"They're just responding to the incentives the system is providing them."

Let's revisit that when the bodies start hitting the floor.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:01 | 3027307 newengland
newengland's picture

'Just because you can doesn't mean you should.'

There. Sums it all up, succinctly. I pity the welfare recipients, the canon fodder. I despise the corporate welfare recipients, the canon.

No rope is too short and no drop is too long for the cynical money grubbing politicos who grift off all. Joe Biden, public enemy number 1...the man behind the throne, hiding behind the nicey guy.

The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 ruined the Republic, and reclaimed it for the international financiers and their British monarchy who do so like the thug Politburos and despots. The NWO wants to make tax slaves, wage slaves of all, serving a technocratic beast, as defined by the Trilateral Commission, the vehicle of people like inbred Rockefellers, Rothschilds, Oppenheimers, the AshkeNAZI.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:21 | 3027342 Hubbs
Hubbs's picture

Except those motherfuckers are held to no standards or accountability.Tried suing 4 of them, and even the trial court opined they were negligent (comitted legal malpractice)  but then turned around and granted them summary judgment in their favor because my losses were "speculative" so the evidence never sees the light of a jury day.

Line the lawyers up along the ditch (so you don't even have to waste time burying them), and mow them down with the M-60 (.308) of your choice. Keep the ammo coming, and don't forget to switch the barrels after every 200 rds.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:52 | 3027918 CaptainObvious
CaptainObvious's picture

Go read up on a class action lawsuit, ANY class action lawsuit, and then maybe you'll understand the hate for the lawyers. 

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 14:27 | 3028210 James
James's picture

Matt says - I would say that, as measured by the incentives system, they are actually pretty smart.


I beg to differ.

I'm 30/1 w/the courts.

I owned a biz for 30+ yrs.

I owned an apt. bldg too.

Their in fact is nothing new under the sun.

Whatever your case is precedent has already been established (case law)

Research, if you actually have a defense,will enable you to prove your case stating at least one, if not more, case precedent.

Dec. 6 once again I will be deposed.

Was told 3-12 lawyers will attempt to roll me.

None of these defense lawyers know I'm going to do a smackdown yet as in their eyes i'm just another schmuck.

In all my cases at the end of deposition/court they're so p.o.the veins in their foreheads look like garden hoses.

It's not that the lawyers are smart.

It is that the public is ignorant.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 18:53 | 3026977 tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

"the painful reality in America is that: for increasingly more Americans it is now more lucrative - in the form of actual disposable income - to sit, do nothing, and collect various welfare entitlements, than to work."

god bless and love zh but this analysis is so stale it could be a hockey puck...the public interest was publishing this type of analysis in the 1970s and 80s...nathan glazer and company covered this issue to kingom come and not a goddamned thing has changed in 30 years....

a veritable galaxy of who's who in supply side economics and assorted hangers on used this material to give birth to the lowering of marginal tax rates because  of similarly perverse effects on upper income workers in the heyday of the kennedy - carter era of high marginal tax rates....y'all remember george gilder?

my god is the world autistic

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:05 | 3027002 CH1
CH1's picture

the kennedy - carter era of high marginal tax rates

I remember. And I remember a lot of loopholes back then too. Not many people actually paid 70% (No one that I ever knew.)

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:31 | 3027152 knukles
knukles's picture

Hell, everything was deductible.  Sales tax, property tax, state tax, double mortgages, interest to borrow to finance muni portfolios....
You name it!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:57 | 3027199 CH1
CH1's picture

Good times... good times. :)

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:41 | 3027173 Umh
Umh's picture

You could even write off your credit card interest. I thing it was the 80's when they decided that to many people had credit card interest and changed the tax  law.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:47 | 3027279 disabledvet
Sat, 12/01/2012 - 18:54 | 3026980 carbon
carbon's picture


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:51 | 3027190 Mr Pink
Mr Pink's picture

I want an Obamaboat!

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 00:21 | 3027484 knukles
knukles's picture

I wanna blowjob

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 18:59 | 3026987 blindman
blindman's picture

U.S. Justice Dept. indicts Paul Thorsen, autism/vaccine researcher.
Edited on Thu Apr-28-11 06:30 PM by pnwmom

Thorsen's research has appeared to disprove links between autism and vaccines. He's being
charged now with submitting invoices to the CDC between 2004-08 that "falsely
claimed that a CDC laboratory had performed work and was owed grant money." He was
the principal investigator on this $11 million CDC grant that included research on autism
and vaccines.

Here's the press release:

April 13, 2011 /
CONTACT: Patrick Crosby
FAX (404)581-6160

Thorsen Allegedly Absconded With Over $1 Million

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 18:59 | 3026988 mumbo_jumbo
mumbo_jumbo's picture

it is just math folks, ship all the well paying jobs to China and we're left with what?  the charts you see above.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 03:12 | 3027623 Incubus
Incubus's picture

It's all part of the modern American dream.  We'll all be "professional" office workers that make jack shit and are above dirtying our hands doing actual work.

Mass pretentiousness has its price, it seems.



Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:52 | 3027919 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

we will be left with more war

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:08 | 3026991 Central Bankster
Central Bankster's picture

And what happens if AMT expires and suddenly, half of all tax payers are hit by additional taxation?  Even making more, will be marginally less valuable.  All those joint filers making 75-85k, find themselves just as "valuable" economically as the woman with no education and 2 kids workin 10-30 hours a week.  Ahh, good game fascists, good game.  You won. 

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:49 | 3027287 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

when that happens we kick the animals out of their cages in the zoo and insert ourselves instead.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:20 | 3026996 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Actually, this meme played out in April / June / July:


The American Myth of Social Mobility Huff Post

The American Dream is a Myth Business Insider

Social Mobility and Inequality Economist

Harder for Americans to Rise from Lower Rungs NY Times

Too hot for TED: Income Inequality NationalJournal

Evidence: Social mobility is lower in more unequal countries Equality Trust (included because there's a very nice graph in there of country comparisons - hint, America is bottom right, when you want to be top left)


Conclusion: MSM is pushing the meme that people can no longer strive to reach the top, because they can no longer reach the top.

Time for the stereotypical George Carlin video, which gets used in every one of these discussions.


Real conclusion: the meme has taken hold, and has nothing to do with "entitlements". "Entitlements" never stopped the immigrants from working 24/7 in their SMEs to better themselves, when they believed the dream (or, perhaps, when the Banks weren't total bastards over lending, but that's a different topic).


If Money = Energy, then you really need to look into the gravitational effects of money. Yes, it works towards a black hole singularity. Might want to count the # of mega-Corps left in the world. Getting smaller, my friends.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:55 | 3027302 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

how can a "dream" be a "myth"? and if it is a "myth" isn't that a good thing? i mean everyone wakes up and says "man i had this amazing dream." but what if you said "man, i woke up this morning and i had this amazing myth!" people might actually listen for a change "if you had an amazing myth to tell them about." nobody listens's really sad. i've devolved to plain old bald faced lying to get attention these days. sad days indeed, sad days indeed.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:01 | 3027314 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

There's a difference between a myth and a legend.

Bottom line is that; The ability of being able to rise to the top in American society is a legend of the first 200 years, but now a myth.


Note: due to your tag, I'm happy to offer a free lesson / skill share / training in anything you'd like if it'd help you out.[1]





[1] Work out if that's a snark about your lying comment yourself. Then ask, or not.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:03 | 3026998 RopeADope
RopeADope's picture

Between that and central banks that steal from you and give to the 1% is it really that surprising that the middle class no longer believes the work hard and you will be rewarded line of BS?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:07 | 3027004 Central Bankster
Central Bankster's picture

I mean just look at all the new money, pull yourself up from nothing types who became mega rich.  They truly won the lottery.  Take Mark Cuban for example.  The guy comes up with a decent idea during a bubble caused by Greenspan.  A business that probably should have netted him a few million dollars and he instead sells a business that doesn't even cashflow anymore, for nearly 6 billion.  Good for him seriously, I'm jealous!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:05 | 3027001 BeagleOne
BeagleOne's picture

The AEI is another fascist front group.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:22 | 3027025 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Yeah so we should probably dismiss this analysis entirely. I suppose we could get a balanced piece from the Huffpo or MSNBC. What this nation needs is more people on welfare and fewer workers supporting them..... that's sustainable.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:13 | 3027017 Troublehoff
Troublehoff's picture

If this is really true - ffs - grrrr

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:16 | 3027020 new game
new game's picture

solution is as simple as raising a family and knowing how to say no and mean it.

oh, and if we as a nation wanted to solve any of these problems we could in a simple blink, but

we have a broken system where we vote in a bunch of two faced liars working for the matrix(corporation)...

and the best part is about 1 percent of amerikans have a fucking clue how owned they are...

freedom vanishing in a flash, as all the blood spilled will be in vain.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:28 | 3027027 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 When we read the household income chart, what is the first "trend line" we  see? I see a declining left to right step down in earnings, quality of life, and children being born out of wedlock/

  I see a giant blue wave, being slammed by a wave of reality!  Carter was smarter than Obama/ At least Carter grows peanuts.

  Did you catch the Unions Camped out side of the Mayor of Chicago house hold! Friday the trash union was camping out/

   Bring back the guillotine and rack!  O’Hare Janitors Descend On Mayor’s House To Protest Looming Job Cuts « CBS Chicago

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:42 | 3027059 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

give to one - must give to all (except if you don't belong to a union, that is).

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:26 | 3027028 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

Theres nothing left to buy, thats how I see it.

In America, you dont have to work that hard to GET STUFF, you have to work hard to KEEP WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE.

That how it goes.

You dont actually Own ANYTHING in America, its all owned by the state and banks, and you have to rent your house/cars/hell even half the crap in your house from the state and banks.

If Banks didnt exist to give loans, cars and homes would be sooooo affordable by ANYONE who has atleast a basic income.

Its banks that drive demand to bubble levels because of fraudulant loan origination that pumps the system with a ton of counterfeit currency... (its like playing monopoly and every round everyone gets 1000$), eventually prices will rise..... in a real world scenario.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 03:16 | 3027627 Incubus
Incubus's picture

Look at the higher education bubble.

Modern economics would be a comedy if it weren't so tragic.

Because when the act finishes, bullets will be inserted into skulls and the killing starts.


Sun, 12/02/2012 - 21:21 | 3028668 hooligan2009
hooligan2009's picture

+1 brazillion - you have hit the nail smack on the head, bravo.

our lives are dominated by borrowing. borrowing = taking from tomorrow to use today in the expectation that it will make a profit (sell more or buy before prices go up).

when there is no demand for crap shitty, mobocracy sponsored, output..the system fucks up.

now..lets wait for tomorrows headlines.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:27 | 3027030 Joebloinvestor
Joebloinvestor's picture

They are lying to us about how they are gonna get us out of the debt they subjugated us to.

Of course someone besides the politicians will pay the bill.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 02:05 | 3027578 Mentaliusanything
Mentaliusanything's picture

Well thats not actually true! They just have not the stomach to say to all the people that this debt is just deferred future Taxation. Inflate all you want and you will find the bill inflates as well. This is where Bernanke is a fool on a Hill.

And as to Government  Transfer (read that as shush money) payments then I refer you to a certain Mrs Thatcher.....  "There can be No entitlement without an Obligation" And that includes a certain number of Corporate thieves that either avoid Taxation or suck at balls of lobbiests to avoid their fair share. Google, Apple, GM, Exon all of them single Mothers(fuckers)

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:28 | 3027034 Crtrvlt
Crtrvlt's picture

This still doesn't even match all the corporate welfare and the approx 35 trillion plus and counting transferred to wall st the last 4 years ( via their best friend the fed and the treasury of course) in the form of, among other methods, direct cash injections, short term overnight loans, free money at the discount window and various liquidity swaps which the banks and their 35:1 leverage ratios and shadow banking liabilities needed to even stay alive even to this day.

2 wrongs obviously don't make a right. So you have the parasites on the bottom, partly there because of the massive gap in record corporate profits (deteriorating as we speak) and record low wages, and the scumbag leeches at the top abusing the system with the government's blessing because of political donations.

We're fucked

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:28 | 3027035 sangell
sangell's picture

EVery time you see a broad nosed, rubber lipped ape with a 100 inch ass marching across a parking lot with her brood of hubshis you see the problem. Until they are exterminated there is no solution.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:11 | 3027119 Karlus
Karlus's picture

Just wait until there is a hiccup with the Kroger supply chain. They willl be swiping their SNAP cards until their bodies stink up the cities.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:28 | 3027343 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

9 people up-voted "EVery time you see a broad nosed, rubber lipped ape with a 100 inch ass marching across a parking lot with her brood of hubshis you see the problem. Until they are exterminated there is no solution."


i am sorry to say ZH is done. the readership is fucked. there was never racism like this before. let's not forget the big-assed white people busy stuffing themselves all across this fucked up country of ours and of course the spics and the kikes running everything. yeah it's all the kikes fault since they own everything and everyone and the niggers for eating all that free junk food and the whops speakchuckers gringos and everyone else we can hate based on ethnicity and what have you. 


if you really wanna get going let's just say that the jews are at that extreme right tail of the IQ distribution curve, just a touch ahead of the Asians. So you dumb hateful white people are all ours! and if it wasn't for us, you wouldnt have an internet, atomic bombs and energy google or even Tyler Durden himself. See WHITE PEOPLE FUCKED IT ALL UP FOR EVERYONE and Jews aren't really white they are more middle eastern which is closer to niggers than plain old white people. You like that?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 23:44 | 3027457 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

vast-dom: Chill man, it's an obvious troll account even though it's been around for 2 years, 45 weeks. You've got better things to do than get upset with that obvious troll post. Shhh... if you listen closely you can here me cracking another beer. Got one here for you too.


Sun, 12/02/2012 - 04:22 | 3027647 AssFire
AssFire's picture


Both you and vast-doom are part of the problem.


Multiculturalism is a proxy for multiracialism, and integration is a proxy for mono-racialism, which is a proxy for white genocide.

The proposition that the ultimate interest in human life is the continuity of one's ethnic group. Not prosperity, not personal liberty, not niceness to the minorties , not any preference of the pro-immigration/colonization mentality.

When White liberals spend decades non-stop 24 /7 harping on at every available opportunity about the Original Sins of the Fathers to the point where it becomes a CULT , you are committing an evil deed , because what you are doing is sending a message , and that message is that all future generations of White children not yet born share the collective guilt of the White Lefts Litany of White Historical real or imaginary injustices .

There is a word for that . It is called a " BLOOD LIBEL " --a RACIAL --BLOOD LIBEL , that is asking for its pound of flesh in retribution .
Is that what you want to see looking back at you Mr. Lefty , from the mirror, when you wake up one morning?

We often have some White historical guilt Lefties on this thread spreading their 6th form civilizational mea-culpa , that has now become the unchallenged de facto factory setting narrative in every educational institution and every champagne trendy radical chic champagne socialist dinner party in every single White nation on the planet , and anyone who even so much as questions these Lefty guilt sodden intellectual giants and experts on world history is of course --once again --" a racist " for even doing so . Well you cannot get out of that closed loop never ending polemic --can you ? It's check mate in one frocking move isn't it .
So listen you holier-than-thou virtue narcissist --love me , love me --I'm a liberal " ALL of humanity loving " hippies !

You win the global compassion/ guilt sentiment competition . Happy now .
Now I must have told you Lefties the following a hundred times and you all come back repeating the same 6th form off the shelf plug in clap-trap about the sins of the White man . Why don't you read some books that don't conform to your preconceptions ?

FACT ; The White race did not invent slavery , but he did ban it all across the world , and if he had not , it would still be going on in Africa today .

FACT ; A new strain of small pox or any other plague could have wiped out 1/3rd of all populations , but the Whites invented cures for them , and when you add up all the other benefits of technology , the White race has spared a billion lives from famine , disease , child mortality , pestilence and god knows what else .
Question : When you say that the White man was more cruel , evil , sexist , homophobic, authoritarian, fascistic and totalitarian , in comparison to WHO ?

FACT ; Islam expanded from a pagan desert cult to conquer , colonize and convert 1/5th of the planet leaving a pile of 270 million dead bodies in its wake , and NO , the Crusades were a response to two unprovoked attacks by Islam, one as far up as Tours in France and another to the Gates of Vienna , and centuries of Barbary pirate raids on Mediterranean and British coastal settlements which took 1 million white slaves back to Africa

There is no act of cruelty that the White man has committed that Amerindians , Chinese , Africans , Muslims , Japanese , or other races are not capable of . And do you think any of them would have had second thought about colonizing the world if they had the chance , and do you think they would have lost sleep about it .

FACT ; So you arty-artsy white liberals peddle half educated cafe pseudo-intellectual clap-trap that we have all heard before , because you think that the more you denigrate your own civilization , the most successful , beneficial and humanitarian in all of human history because you get a big smug....

" Pooh how I bask in the ego-glow of moral supremacy , as I condemn my own civilization as evil --love --love me "
out of it -Oh and by the way , there are so many of you now that you are creating utter havoc ,and busy creating future world that no liberal progressive would ever want to live in .

Can you White liberals not get it through your thick skulls that any civilization that gropes around apologizing for existing 24/7 as if it had no redeeming features whatsoever , cannot hope to survive . It will eat itself alive from within ..

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 21:50 | 3037887 Angus McHugepenis
Angus McHugepenis's picture

Ummm... the last time I looked I was FAR from being an "artsy-artsy white liberal". Give your fucking head a shake. I have no idea what else you are ranting about.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:30 | 3027037 Surrealist
Surrealist's picture

I seriously cannot believe some of the abject rubbish we read in various media reports....


World Economy in Best Shape for 18 Months, Poll Shows

“The global economy is improving, recovering and healing, thanks to the U.S. and the emerging markets,” said Andrea Guzzi, a poll respondent and vice president of IST Investmentstiftung fuer Personalvorsorge, which manages money for Swiss pension funds. “More people are becoming wealthy, less and less are poor.”

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:34 | 3027049 I am Jobe
I am Jobe's picture

Sure and I see a Unicorn in my backyard everyday.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:14 | 3027102 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture


North Korea finds secret Unicorn lair

Currently trending on all major sources, including Telegraph and fleet-street. At which point we all groan, because the MSM has gone full retard and is so unprofessional these days, it can't check sources. (I mean, REALLY, you're adults being paid a wage for this, and you can't do a 5 min GREP? REALLY? AND YOU DESERVE TO BE PAID?)

Flip-trick: not actually a unicorn, it's a Qilin.


The Qilin (Chinese: ??; pinyin: qílín; Wade–Giles: ch'i-lin) is a mythical hooved Chinese chimerical creature known throughout various East Asian cultures, and is said to appear with the imminent arrival or passing of a wise sage or an illustrious ruler.[1] It is a good omen that brings rui (Chinese: ?; pinyin: ruì; roughly translated as "serenity" or "prosperity"). It is often depicted with what looks like fire all over its body. It is sometimes misleadingly called the "Chinese unicorn" due to conflation with the unicorn by Westerners.


Conclusion: story isn't about rainbows, unicorns or MLP. They're celebrating the arrival of a new illustrious ruler, fire based, rui, get the picture? 

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 11:00 | 3027934 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

ha. .... comment is spot on

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:33 | 3027043 dumpster
dumpster's picture

Buy america

keep more of your income

grab a macdonalds and some frys

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:33 | 3027046 Payable on Death
Payable on Death's picture

The take-away is that the tipping point has been reached. Those who live off the government are a majority. The conservative meme of liberty to work for your own benefit is not attractive. It is threatening. Gaaaame... ooooooover...

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:33 | 3027047 I am Jobe
I am Jobe's picture

Amerika is still perfecting welfare. Give it a few more years.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:35 | 3027051 Troublehoff
Troublehoff's picture

I've just been out tonight - have been speaking to a friend - very tallented guy, knows dot net framework, jquery inside out and has been building quality websites and web tools for over two decades. I'd not class him as an idiot but he got into some debt just after leaving uni and has never been debt free since, working 16 hour days for the last ten years, still living with his parents, writing glossy promo websities for big brands that i cannot really name at the mo while some people live, with several children and no job, in government funded 'council houses' in inner london with rents averaging 2-3 thousand per month, paying taxpayer money to the landed elites, who are probably etonites/bankers/politicos, or just people who accumilated wealth in this low interest rate system that never allows speculators to lose because 'we need growth'- and he doesn't make the connection - i get more angry every day at this shit


I spend most days writing algoritms and webtools to anylise marketing data so that comercial enterpriseses can more efficiently target and sell to the consumer, which i admit is a job, working for 'the man' - i agree that nobody owes me a living, yet it boils my blood when i see council paid employees and union workers doing simple jobs with pensions that i can dream of, striking and collecting wages similar to mine, assuming they are indispensible cogs of society - let the fragmented, none union comercial workers strike, or withdraw their labour and see how quickly society falls apart! let the engineers, scientists and brains of productive corporations stop working - and see where we are - i'll go out and collect the bins or drive the trains - i'm sure i can do it with very fucking little training and collect a similar wage - fuck them


my advice to them is, if they're unhappy in their current roles, quit, find another job and stop complaining, or do the job at the rate companies are willing to pay them until they aquire a more desirable skill - and the bankers can go fuck themselves


its about time the government started spending money into existince and the bankers gravy train stoped - a country permanently in debt paying interest at a rate above what the centeral banks loan money to the selected few large banks is the true defintion of fascism  - society is sickening, and even seemingly inteligent people are taking it in the arse without asking questions - the low brow are bought off and the middle classes have sleep walked into slavery while the elites take the cream, 

fuck this


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:50 | 3027077 gutfeeling
gutfeeling's picture

"...the low brow are bought off and the middle classes have sleep walked into slavery while the elites take the cream".

This perfectly sums up the situation.

I was amazed to read somewhere that the average public servant salary in the US was something like 50% more than in the private sector, and that is before the incredibly generous retirement benefits are taken into account. We have the same situation here in Australia, but I thought it was because we've had mostly leftist political parties in charge of state and federal governments for most of the last 60 years. The stuff that the public servants get is incredible, PLUS there are so many of them. We even have people being paid their full wage for years on end (even up to 5 years or more) while their public service department finds them a job because their old job became obsolete!!! Incredible this stuff goes on while people are struggling to pay basic bills on their ever-decreasing (in real terms) salaries. But in the USA, the so-called land of the free and place where people are meant to succeed on their own merits? I was shocked to hear this statistic.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:11 | 3027118 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Be sure to be fine-tuned about this: There are VC based banking outfits who are very much into helping the economy, and people.


PFI - now that's a huge New Labour scandal just about to break. Ex-Labour ministers creaming off £12 mil in fees ring a bell? Government really isn't your friend here, mon ami.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:55 | 3027197 Troublehoff
Troublehoff's picture

Yes, no problem there mon ami. 


Comercial enterprises and banking institutions should and can be the backbone of the ecomomy. But currently, when I see goldman turning massive profits, and their star boardroom emplooyees taking the reigns of central banks, i figure something is a little wrong.

we shouldn't have central fucking banks or central fucking anythings

and yes, PFI, is just another debt-based taxpayer arse-rape


why the government should ever need to 'borrow' money is beyond me. It should come out of peoples wages or be declared and spent into existence so we all have an idea of what the fuck is going on


the obsfucation is beyond belief - and their are too many Q7 driving civil servants and BMW driving cops


i hear they've found water on mercury - perhaps we can fuck off there - it may be a little hot but surely, the obsticles to success cannot be much greater than what we're fighting against now

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:21 | 3027217 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Scratch that (2 years+ I bow to you).


The revolving door of Government <-> High level Board is well documented.


The bottom line is that the % of GDP due to Finance [City of London] in the UK is massive, and has only grown since the 1980's. As others have pointed out - if it goes, the UK is in trouble. Couple that with local councils who are mindless and self-serving, "Better Business Bureaus" who handed out EU cash to their friends [true story: a 'rival' (i.e. same area, exactly same model) business of mine got ~£750k fully dual grant from them and when I looked over their presentation, there was a claim that "no competing business was within 50 miles". I pointed out we were less than 30 miles away, and the idiot wasn't even intelligent enough to defend it or take the logical route of splitting it before the courts screwed the other business. Not my fault, but I'm pretty sure the other business was a little irked with the guy who'd not done his homework as the EU removed the grant and demanded repayment] and a generally lacking educational output...


Hmm. Sorry to say: the UK is rather in a mire.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:35 | 3027053 I am Jobe
I am Jobe's picture

Should have titled this as Bend Over Amerikan workers. Scoialism Rocks

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:39 | 3027055 Sextus Empiricus
Sextus Empiricus's picture

There is a reason I dropped out of grad school, gave up my lavish graduate assistantship (well, lavish for a poor guy like me), and have now settled for trying to turn this beast around.

No matter how much I could make, I would only be doing what someone else wants me to do.  I would not be teaching courses the way I want, but only the way the state permits me to.  And the money I make would be totally devalued bit by bit until it was worth virtually nothing.  The loans were too much, the payback too little.

Go Galt, change the world at the grassroots level.  I could have chosen the screen name "Sisyphus", but I didn't for obvious reasons.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:46 | 3027184 Sparkey
Sparkey's picture

Yes that is obvious, still you do display a certain courage, and you do have the skill of critical thought,,, Poor Sisyphus, I've heard that he slipped on a rock, a case of carelessness bred by over confidence and boredom?, nothing had ever happened differently, why should it be different now? Yet, that time it was different, as told to me; the rock rolled over him crushing his skull, the lesson for us is, Don't take anything for granted, that is when the outcome will be unexpected!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:41 | 3027056 QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

Wealth redistribution is not "Funding" it is stealing

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:41 | 3027057 SmackDaddy
SmackDaddy's picture

Yo economist motherfucker, talk all the shit you want, but you dont contribute any more to the real economy than these welfare assholes...

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:51 | 3027078 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

FU crackdaddy.  my efforts in mineral exploration have brought into U.S. millions of outside (cdn, aus, gb etc) dollars that have paid the salaries and benies to the govt worker and welfare hogs as well as bankster trash.

Which are you?

you don't know shit.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:02 | 3027094 SmackDaddy
SmackDaddy's picture

You too are enabled by the system.  Make no mistake about it...

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:08 | 3027112 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

How, because it allows me to breathe?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:08 | 3027327 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

hopefully we don't need gainful employment in order to breathe. that would CLEARLY be a step backward and i would protest this. hopefully before i stopped breathing...maybe even...with my last breath. at which point i would say ... "tell them i said something...

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 23:53 | 3027465 dognamedabu
dognamedabu's picture

Buy some carbon credits for yourself just in case.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 01:40 | 3027562 Payable on Death
Payable on Death's picture

I don't concede your point. But, if it were true, how does it justify the statistics presented here--so many living at the expense of others?

Regardless, the real tragedy is that the help, is not help. The help offered by liberals who wrap themsevles in a mantle of caring actually harms the recipients. 80 years after the New Deal and 50 years after the Great Society, we know that liberal help is a failure. We know this because liberals keep asking for more. The harm caused by dependency upon liberal help is so pervasive, so obvious that one can only conclude that liberals don't really care. Instead, they have chosen to create dependency in order to gain power (votes) and money.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 02:05 | 3027583 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

Americans really need to learn the definition of liberal.

Your misuse of it makes you sound fucking retarded.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 10:44 | 3027905 Payable on Death
Payable on Death's picture

I know the difference between classical liberalism and what American lefties call themselves (before they became ashamed and went back to progressive).

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 11:11 | 3027960 Umh
Umh's picture

True, but it's hard not to use a word the way almost everyone else does. Most of use don't really use a dictionary to pick which words to use; we follow the common usage. That being said the Democrats have squated on the word liberal for years. This squating has shifted the common usage of the word. Today liberal is synonymous with socialist in the common vernacular.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:41 | 3027060 Sextus Empiricus
Sextus Empiricus's picture

The economy is fine.  Just take the pill.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:42 | 3027062 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Jobe I understand your rant. London is a giant "peep show"... Cameras every where, and tolls are absurd!

  Thank God for the(educated) trollies that know their way around London. It's expensive and nutty in that city!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:43 | 3027064 evolutionx
evolutionx's picture


A deluge of an unprecedented magnitude is both inevitable and imminent. The consequences of the economic and political mismanagement will have a devastating impact on the world for a very long time. And the consequences will touch most corners of the world in so many different areas; economic, financial, social, political and geopolitical.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:50 | 3027079 JR
JR's picture

This is the plantation. Everybody would have plantation money and a plantation ID card and mess hall privileges, a warm bunk and daily instructions on work crew assignments.

Why is it so difficult for people to see that a managed economy is a managed nation and a managed nation has a manager: an owner, an overseer, a dictator, a Simon Legree.

We are being channeled into Carroll Quigley’s banker utopia.

The ultimate insult is to call this a recovery, to actually pretend we have some kind of economic program, when this banker-controlled government is destroying the lives and fortunes and liberty of individual Americans.

Revolution is bubbling under the surface in America.

And to think that these Congressmen will do anything to get these jobs –will move Heaven and earth to ride around in limos sporting marcelled hair – just to cheat and be manipulated by the international bankers.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 19:54 | 3027085 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

And if the government tries to cut the subsidies and entitlements they will be left with 40% unemployment and people in the streets.

The gravy at the bottom and the top will continue until every last middle class citizen has been pushed down or up and all that is left are the Pharaohs and the Slaves.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 11:06 | 3027948 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

"left with 40% unemployment and people in the streets".  Have already seen it and continue to see it.  There is a 1.5 mile stretch of road leading to the freeway I take home from my rental place and every single corner had people begging on it all the way to the freeway.  This is in a major city "doing well" in a relative sense.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:02 | 3027092 woggie
woggie's picture

the beast is on the gobble
and all that matters is we're all headed for it's belly

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 00:45 | 3027513 A Middle Child ...
A Middle Child of History's picture

I did not see your screed on a few of these comment sections. You are slacking, asshole.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:04 | 3027098 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 There is some justice. J.R. and Ebworthen getting it done!  The dog gone "central banks" should take notice!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:07 | 3027101 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

Supply side economists believe that the poor are not working and being productive because we are paying them too much and the rich are not working and being productive because we are not paying them enough. As is reflected in this article.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:07 | 3027105 Unlawful Justice
Unlawful Justice's picture

Working for wages turns everybody into conformist and cowards.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:07 | 3027106 gutfeeling
gutfeeling's picture

We have the same situation in Australia. In Australia are far, far better off on welfare (free house, free dental, free transport, fortnightly salary, discounted car registration, probably free electricity and water for all I know) than you are earning a low wage and paying your own way. We have a situation where, if you have a taxpayer-funded house for your family (let's say two adults two kids), when those kids grow up and move out of home, you do NOT have to give up that house - because it's your "family home". What? A regular person does not have this option if they are no longer able to afford their house! The taxpayer-funded house can ALSO be passed on to your children, "because it's their family home". WTF. We also have a situation where the taxpayer (I'm sick of being told it's "the government") pays individuals $5000 when they have a baby - I am NOT joking. Little wonder then that it's the people on welfare who are having all the children. The regular workers are having 0 or 1 children while they attempt to pay normal ever-increasing power, water and food bills and try to pay off a house over their lifetime, which in itelf is becoming increasingly difficult even with two adults working full time even without children.

We've fallen a long way and still getting shafted more all the time. Meanwhile the bankers are still permitted to literally print money every day of the week.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:17 | 3027130 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

So am I. It's raining Roos and Snappers up here/ Sydney is socked in!  I'm loving it!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:22 | 3027136 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

By the time the great Kenyan leader is done with his second term those charts will look good. All I can think of is how bullish this is for gold & silver.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:24 | 3027140 knukles
knukles's picture

What truly confounds me is how many reasonably well off folks who've got their heads up their ideological anuses think that everything is getting better and better....

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:12 | 3027168 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Me to/ I was taught to donate.  I see a lot of taking going on!

  More people locked up, and more crime/ Who forgot the "Pledge of Allegiance"?

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 11:16 | 3027972 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

Indeed.  I hear and see those very people every single day.  In general those folks seem to have never have been laid off or had their jobs outsourced in the last 15 years or more and tend to still believe their living 'the dream' but on the other hand I also know people who haven't been laid off or out of work in 30 plus years who are well aware that everything is fucked up and are truly frightened by seriousness of the state of the economy.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:24 | 3027139 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

For about 25% of the cost of welfare and administration the U.S. could simply subsidize labor.  The U.S. would simply pay for the first $7.00 of all paychecks.  Minimum wage labor would then become almost free for employers.  The cost of labor in the U.S. would become competitive with 3rd world countries and useful work would be obtained where none is had now.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:28 | 3027146 Umh
Umh's picture

Some people do more than $7 per hour in damages; think about it?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 23:09 | 3027416 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

So true.  But they are all in Washington DC.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:26 | 3027142 Umh
Umh's picture

No shit people. I thought everyone knew that people who could not for whatever reason make 200K just coasted since the incentive was vaporized to make a little more than you can get from breathing.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:28 | 3027145 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Welfare Moms?  What about welfare Dads.  Ooops.  Wait.  There is no welfare for Dads.  Men are scum.


Sun, 12/02/2012 - 16:00 | 3028300 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

usually I'd just scroll past your oft-repeated line - it's yer lucky day.

"welfare" is paid to the parent with the child/ren - just because many fathers choose to hide out in Idaho and avoid childcare payments, staying "under the radar" rather than give a penny to their spawn's upkeep, doesn't mean .gov wouldn't love to contribute to the Daddy's nest too, should he ever decide to land.

Using statewide computer records, Roth studied what factors affected case outcomes of 740 families in eight Florida counties who received Aid to Families with Dependent Children benefits shortly before the program was eliminated as part of the 1996 Federal Welfare Reform Act.

In her study, there were 1,124 men and 141 women who were absent parents. When the absent parent had other children with another partner, the family in her sample was 18 percent less likely to get off welfare at six months after the beginning of the study, she said.

“We need to look at the type of man who has many children by many women,” she said. “This may be a predatory male who is not taking responsibility for his own behavior.”

it's ole Johnny Appleseed you want to take yer gripes up with - he could get gov monies if he'd just show up.


Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:33 | 3027156 Troublehoff
Troublehoff's picture

unfortunately, with the current fractional reserve system, if central banks don't employ loose monetary policy, we will disapear into a deflationary vortex because the workers cannot get any more productive - how can this be right? Surely at some point, people will cease to find ways to become more efficient, when both parents are working full time, and red tape and taxes become overbearing, what the fuck do people expect, when the corporations selling caffeine to these slaves pay fuck all in taxes because they're based off shore, while the people lucky enough to have pensions are invested in, and complain about the very same coorporations becuase they have no understanding of the system - debt slavery and monetary fudges should not be the fucking solution to this


the solution to this should be rich, porsche driving, speculators taking a fucking haircut, losing their houses. The Donald trumps of this world being liable to their creditors, without being able to start new, limited liablitiy enterprises, and people with savings actually seeing a downturn in inflation - people with pensions, not seeing their pensions inflated by POMO, but actually realising a loss - and assuming we have a monetary system where money doesn't vaporize like matter hitting antimatter, we'd reach an equalibrium where people might actually be able to work less hours in jobs that are more valuable to society because the financial sector would no longer be able to churn a profiit from loose monetary policy (rich slickers raping the productivity of your average bricklayer, welder, architecht), where people were not forced to speculate, as ther alternative would see their savings erroded 


I agree, we need a tiny amount of inflation, to stop people hoarding cash - how about the government spends money into existence and taxes to target inflation at 0.5% and at NO FUCKING POINT does a commercial bank loan money to people via fractional reserve bullshit - if a bank loans money, it should be money that the customer placed into an investor account which is liable to losses as well as gains - if somebody wants to insure that shit, great, but there are no fucking governments or central banks backing up the insurers 

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 20:46 | 3027181 newengland
newengland's picture

Freak Gordon Brown, pet of private banks who sold off Britain's gold at rock bottom prices and admitted that he doesn't understand economics after Britain got rid of him; Labour darling Brown with a degree in Labour (Stalinist) Party history, the thief who rarely appears in public unless it is to whine in Parliament about his own personal vendettas. He avidly serves the globalist agenda, a one world order dystopia.


A short rope and long drop would be too good for him, the filth who betrayed labour.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:44 | 3027276 Troublehoff
Troublehoff's picture

i drop him into the same ctegory as Krugman. A person who has no logical foundation to his arguments, spewing dogma, and empowered by other idiots, and the financial elites


somebody who appears, on the surface, to have the best interests of the populous at heart. very dangerous, an advocate of centralistaion of power


fuck him

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:47 | 3027284 Troublehoff
Troublehoff's picture

really, i should stop posting on this site after drinking half a bottle of whiskey


tylers, i promise to add quality to your site with more cogent post,in future - apologies for sloppy spelling/grammar

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 02:40 | 3027608 newengland
newengland's picture


Keep calm (and whiskey) and carry on. 

Ace posts from you.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!