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The Most Popular Rifle in History: An Infographic

Tyler Durden's picture




 

We have shown the recent surges in both sales and capitalization of several far, far smaller weapons-makers in the US: Smith & Wesson and Sturm, Ruger (along with the world's seemingly inexorable demand for 'bulk ammo'), but one can only wonder whether the market cap. of Kalashnikov (the maker of the world's most popular rifle) would be greater than that of AAPL if the firm had been based in the US and gone public at inception.

 

 

Source: Rianovosti

 

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Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:20 | 3034179 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

I've never "ridden" Roy Roger's horse and any pictures to the contrary have been photoshopped by the NSA.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:30 | 3034219 economics9698
economics9698's picture

Cleaning the AK-47 is just about as easy as shooting it, should you actually choose to clean it. Some people say the gun performs better the more you beat it and neglect it, but that's just a myth. To clean the AK-47, you pop the top cover off, pull the bolt out, and hose it down with gun scrubber and then give it a nice coating of oil. Seal it back up and you're good to go.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:06 | 3034323 economics9698
economics9698's picture

I always clean my weapons.  They cost money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0ZB_puM2rQ

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:54 | 3034077 ShrNfr
ShrNfr's picture

I believe we are talking enviornmental dirt here, not lead in the rifielings.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:56 | 3034083 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

For any weapon worth carrying, I expect to run a bore snake through it and add some lube.  Nothing more.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:16 | 3034162 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

Bootlace with 3 overhand knots, and a few dipsticks worth of used motor oil.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:19 | 3034178 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

Thanks for that.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:19 | 3034180 Karlus
Karlus's picture

Nonsense. Good Soviet would just spit on it... Maybe some pee down the barrel. Its an AK, for Leninsake

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:22 | 3034189 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

The pee probably works well on the corrosive ammo.  +1 to anyone who has ever washed an AK in a Holiday Inn bathtub </hotwater>

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:33 | 3034232 Karlus
Karlus's picture

I've washed WITH an AK and a couple thai ladyboys once. Does that count for a +1?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:44 | 3034662 Drunken Monkey
Drunken Monkey's picture

No, but I've showered with my FN on more than one occasion, does that count? (a tub would have been great, but there were none available).

 

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:52 | 3034073 Pinktip
Pinktip's picture

Col. David Hackworth

It's ironic because I'm reading "Steel My Soldiers' Hearts" right now. He really had a hard on about the M-16 and how terrible it is. In one scene in the book they are bulldozing a berm and turn up a dead VC still holding his AK-47. the guy has been there maybe a month or more buried in jungle crap. Hackworth jumps down, grabs the AK and says "this is what a real battle rifle should do." He pulls the bolt and fires off 30 rounds with no problem.
Reading between the lines he sounded like he could be a real a-hole but he was sincere in what he did and got results.
Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:55 | 3034080 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

Well, that may have been the case 50 years ago, but it's no longer the case today.  Today's ARs are 10x the weapon of today's AKs, particularly with the ACOG optics.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:58 | 3034092 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

10 minutes after the balloon flies, iron sights will rule the world. 

 

Probably got that quote wrong.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:01 | 3034317 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

Six months.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 02:36 | 3034867 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

That just doesn't make any sense.  If you were to expect such a situation, anyone with a force multiplier such as modern optics, i.e. not 19th century aming devices (>1) will have a material advantage on opponents.  Run that monte carlo simulation for about 10 seconds... Tell me who wins????  

 

 

 

 

psst... It's the people with optics.  

 

ACOGs are tough, and don't take batteries.  Even after the tritium burns out (years) physics of optics still works.  It's why the military has stated that the ACOG is the most signifigant advance in the battle rifle since the M1.  Just sayin...

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:12 | 3036370 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

No doubt about it. None.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 18:51 | 3037469 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

It’s all about  batteries.  

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:02 | 3034104 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

Direct gas impingement leads to a dirty action.

 

Gas cylinders, with a piston, provide inherent reliability.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:03 | 3034110 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

Piston driven ARs are a dime a dozen these days.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:13 | 3034150 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

That's news to me. Armalite finally threw in the towell, and jumped on the AK clone bandwagon!

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:05 | 3034327 GCT
GCT's picture

Armalite puts out several AR15 models, a 50 cal sniper, and 6.8 lapua.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:06 | 3034124 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

Obligatory quote- "It shits where it eats."

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:11 | 3034146 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

Good one!

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:27 | 3034210 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Upgrade to fail zero bolt/hammer and add mcfarland gas rings. no more worries.....

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 02:38 | 3034872 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

clean it every 5000 rounds, you'll be fine, promise.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:04 | 3034322 GCT
GCT's picture

Agree F.Bastiat.  I have a sig piston gas system AR15 and love it.  No more powder in the face and can shoot it all day.  Alot better then an AK.  I am thinking about getting .17 calibur they are are sweet and pack more punch then a .22 and just as quiet. My brother in law uses it on the ranch for small varmints and swears by it.  I shot his Thanksgiving.

 

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:55 | 3034504 Ignorance is bliss
Ignorance is bliss's picture

Well my friend 50 years ago iron vs. ACOG may have been the case. I have an Aimpoint mounted on my Saiga. ACOG on an AK variant. I have a Texas defense system rail that replaces the dust cover. Amazing product. Great weapon platform. Nothing against the Ar, but the .308 is too pricey for those asking for a great combat weapon.The .223 is a little light for an all around budget based weapons platform, and who isn't on a budget nowadays?

 

Not that it matters, they are both (AR / AK) death on the end of a stick.

 

 

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:38 | 3034256 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

M-16's not a battle-rifle.  That's not quite a fair comparison.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:58 | 3034087 toady
toady's picture

Beat me to the punch!

AK's are nearly indestructible. I've seen video of them completely covered in oil, dirt & all kinds of other shit and they still fired. One video showd one with the stocks all broken & held together with paint, great big scratches all over it like it was dragged behind a vehicle down an asphalt road. It still fired.

I wouldn't do that to my AK's, but it's good to know they could deal with it.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:04 | 3034114 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

A stainless kalashnikov would be practically immortal.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 02:39 | 3034873 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

except for the safety that can only be described as: fucking stupid!

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:04 | 3034116 nmewn
nmewn's picture

One of the best small arms ever made.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:05 | 3034121 salvadordaly
salvadordaly's picture

I'm hoping that one day I will be able to recover mine from the bottom of the lake where I had that boat accident, and I also hope that they, (3 of them) will still work. I'll let you know how they work when the ice defrost and I am able to try and retrieve them. Wish me luck!

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:49 | 3034051 10mm
10mm's picture

Swinggggg.ak's and Saiga 12's.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:52 | 3034053 tom a taxpayer
tom a taxpayer's picture

iPod iTunes iPad iKalashnikov?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:52 | 3034054 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

If you go AK, then go Saiga.  First thing, add a Krebs Safety lever, so tactical index is possible with the trigger finger, rather than your thumb.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:54 | 3034078 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

+1.  At a minimum, it would be nice to shut up the morons at the range when the firing line is cold.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:05 | 3034122 Zap Powerz
Zap Powerz's picture

Mr. Horseman, is there anything about survival you don't  know?

Thanks for the tip!

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:20 | 3034182 Grifter
Grifter's picture

I second that.  Thanks Mr. Horseman, gonna look into these for a friend who owns a few SLR-95's.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:50 | 3034055 The Shootist
The Shootist's picture

Hard to say if Mr. Kalishkanov would be bigger than the NasdApple.

 

John Browning could still whup his ass.   ;)

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:51 | 3034064 10mm
10mm's picture

Don't forget Cooper.Long live the mighty 10 Mike Mike.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:16 | 3034359 Axenolith
Axenolith's picture

That's Saint John Browning to us...;-)

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 00:01 | 3034693 10mm
10mm's picture

It's Col Cooper.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:50 | 3034056 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

OK.  First off, I love the AK.  If you believe it's effective past 200 meters, you're dreaming.  That said, if you bury an AK and an AR in your backyard for 5 years, then dig them up and do an accuracy test, you'll realize the true worth of a firearm pretty quickly.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:53 | 3034074 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

Yeah, but why would you do that? 

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:04 | 3034107 bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

i imagine he probably checks his gold stash every five

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:23 | 3034606 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

Well, checking the gold stash is a wise move. Burying your weapons in the dirt doesn't really qualify as one, though.  Gotta take care of your sh*t.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:02 | 3034100 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

How accurate are they after a canoeing accident?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:14 | 3034157 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

Not entirely sure, but I should mention that I use an AK as an anchor.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:50 | 3034061 kengland
kengland's picture

G3 is a much better rifle

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:52 | 3034071 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

+1.  G3 is Ak reliable plus shoots .308.  The only downside is that the ergonomics suck.  Sights not bad.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:01 | 3034091 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

Saiga makes a .308 AK.  Mississippi Auto Arms has all the parts for moving the trigger group forward, etc.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:02 | 3034103 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

Great.  Then I can have even worse ergos.  I'd rather use the op rod with my left hand.  The G3 safety ain't bad. Optics not bad.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:08 | 3034118 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

A FAL has better ergonomics than the G3, because you need not reach so far to run the bolt, but the magazines are more expensive.  

http://www.dsarms.com/SA58-FAL-Spartan-Tactical-Rifle-308-Caliber----SA5...

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:08 | 3034135 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

Depends on your timing buying mags.  Fal also has a mag release, bolt release.  Ergos are almost as good as the AR.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:09 | 3034141 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

I wish I could now afford one of those.  Unfortunately I sold the only FAL I owned.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:08 | 3034134 Zap Powerz
Zap Powerz's picture

Want a battle rifle with good ergos, shoots .308 and has good iron sights?  Go SCAR-H. Add an ACOG and youve got yourself a good weapon.  Course, it'll cost you $4,500.  An AK costs about 500 to 800 bucks.  So there is that.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 00:04 | 3034701 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

Don't really like the reciprocating charging handle on the Scar. 

The following is similar, but without the above-mentioned factor. http://xcr.robarm.com/xcrm.php

Personally, I went with the M1A scout squad. Proven technology.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:51 | 3034066 ThisIsBob
ThisIsBob's picture

As for empowering the people, Kalashnikov is right up there with Gutenberg.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:59 | 3034097 THX 1178
THX 1178's picture

Ironic how it was a symbol of communism.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:09 | 3034139 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Well, they did steal the design, like most other things in that era, from zee Germans.

Then the Finns improved it with the RK-62.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:23 | 3034192 nmewn
nmewn's picture

+1

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:04 | 3034325 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

The bolt looks a lot like a 30 cal carbine.  The rest looks like a MP 44.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 01:03 | 3034793 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

And 5000 of those original StG44s were just captured in Syria....mistaken to be AK47s...unbelievable

http://www.armoryblog.com/firearms/rifles/free-syrian-army-captures-5000...

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 02:43 | 3034875 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

how erudite of you.  You are learned on the true history of the AK.  Impressive!  +1

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:10 | 3034144 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

I wouldn't go that far. About the only people it empowered were the likes of Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Guevara, and the myrida savage dictators of the black continent.

The AK is a symbol of mayhem and murder, not civilization and the civilized.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:49 | 3034278 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

I think the irony he alluded to has to do to the possibility that the AK will ultimately DEFEND us against the Stalin-Mao like assholes that have made the US the pariah of hypocrisy.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:57 | 3034304 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

AKs aren't going to do it. Educated citizens, armed with ARs, might do it.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:09 | 3034337 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

True that.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 02:35 | 3034869 Incubus
Incubus's picture

If glock made a rifle, I would buy it.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 00:51 | 3034777 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

Evil is not a quality that inanimate objects can possess.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:52 | 3034068 ShrNfr
ShrNfr's picture

The ultimate victory of Keep It Simple Stupid. The dumb things are robust as all get out and can be made by hand in Pakistan.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:52 | 3034072 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

The effective range listed is exaggerated by about an order of magnitude.  An AR15 with an ACOG optic is 10x more effective than any AK derivative.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:56 | 3034082 Pinktip
Pinktip's picture

No comparison with 7.62x 39 vs 5.56....

 

Long range energy, windage.....not accuracy.....

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:54 | 3034262 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

Really?  Let's compare the AR15 with a $300 bolt action from Wal-Mart.  I volunteer.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:01 | 3034319 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

We're not comparing bolt actions. We're comparing AK derivatives and AR derivatives.

The ACOG optic for AR15/M4/M16s, in particular, has been the single greatest infantry force multiplier of the last 50 years.  Couple that combination with MK262 ammo and you have the most potent rifleman combination ever known to man.

The AK had some advantages 50 years ago; it really doesn't have any today other than cost.

 

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:25 | 3034389 a growing concern
a growing concern's picture

So now it only takes 50,000 rounds per kill in battle as opposed to 100,000?  Fantastic!

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:37 | 3034636 TheAntiGov
TheAntiGov's picture

Thats why the SOCOM is getting rid of the 223 platform in favor of the 308 SCAR 17H. They blow the doors off of ANY 223 platform!

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 00:15 | 3034722 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Anyone know a lower cost ACOG set up?   I once had an AR 15.  It is at the bottom of a lake but I have a scuba tank and flippers.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 00:19 | 3034728 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

Trijicon ACOGs can be found on eBay for around $1,000.  So, for the AR + the ACOG + some Black Hills 77 grain ammo you're looking at about $2K.  Sell your scuba gear, procure an AR.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 09:50 | 3035206 BooMushroom
BooMushroom's picture

Holy fuck!

If I have need of a firearm, it is going to be defending my home against a burglar, or a group of hungry zombies. With untrained family to help, I would be better off with 5 Mosin-Nagant rifles, 2000 rounds, and $700 worth of other supplies.

Quarter mile range is plenty, I can't see much farther than that anyway.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 02:49 | 3034876 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

This man speaketh the truth.  The wise would listen.  For combat effectiveness, the AR platform is unmatched.  In war, after fire and maneuver, its about accurate fire, and volume of fire, and if you can shoot them before they can accurately shoot you, you WIIIN!  

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:55 | 3034081 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

The Galil is an AK.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 00:07 | 3034705 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

with longer sights and a bottle opener.

 

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:56 | 3034084 forwardho
forwardho's picture

the AK platform while substandard on long range MOA, more than makes up for this shortcoming by firing in all conditions. Dirt, powder, grunge, takes a beating and still keeps cycling. That makes it a lazy commies wet dream.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:46 | 3034274 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

its like playing moneyball only with war instead of baseball. 

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:57 | 3034085 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I'm not saying that I own or buy any guns mr. NSA snoop, but if I did own a collection of battle rifles this would be the next one I would add. Hypothetically speaking that is.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:24 | 3034195 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

"I'm not saying that I own or buy any guns mr. NSA snoop"

Yep, start another age old AK vs AR argument and gather information. 

So here are at least 20 years worth of results on this debate simplified:  AR-15 et al= overengineered, too tight of tolerances, too many parts, headspacing issues, jams a lot.  AK variants= basic, few parts, sloppy but sturdy recievers, bolts and firing pins, headspacing issues, does not jam.  End of story.

Now how about that Mosin-Nagant M44 carbine with the perma-bayonet?!LOL  Anyone ever freehand a 100 rounds through one of those on any given day?     

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 02:51 | 3034878 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

AK's are shit, but everybody should train on one, or own one, just because they're everywhere, and the ammo is plentiful

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:58 | 3034088 hairball48
hairball48's picture

The AK's were, and are fine weapons. I owned an SKS at one time(same basic rifle design). Been a shitload of people killed with AKs and SKs.

That said, for personal/home defense, most people would be far better off with a short barreled, .12g pump gun like I'm holding in my avatar picture. Should I need to reach out to "touch someone", I have a 30'06 that I've had 50+ years....and I can still shoot it :) And of course I have lots of ammo for both.

Gold, silver, and ammo bitchez :)

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:05 | 3034119 El Hosel
El Hosel's picture

How many AK47 will an ounce of gold buy?... Seriously, aren't they pretty inexpensive?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:35 | 3034239 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

Should be able to get 6 wholesale, depending on where from.

 

Romanians make one with 3 shot burst feature.

 

Bulgarians have a nice synthetic stock.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:06 | 3034544 Ignorance is bliss
Ignorance is bliss's picture

AKs and Ars are both expensive. The base Ak is cheaper then the AR platform in general, but once you start modifying the weapon then the cost increases. FYI...you will want to modify a base AK. If a base AK goes for $900, then double it for modifications. I am going through that now.

So far...

$410 Aimpoint red dot (purchased)

$ 140 Dog Leg rear rail western defense systems (purchaed)

$ 125 midwest front rail (the barrel gets hot dream list)

$ 250 SSAK -47 slide fire stock...too cool. ( dream list)

 

Total = $925 modifications

base AK (Arsenal) = $900

total $1800

 

Not cheap IMHO = 1 ounce of Gold = 1 great weapons platform

 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 00:48 | 3034773 Nimby
Nimby's picture

Seriously?  If you need a red dot you either need to buy more ammo and hit the target range, AND you're too close.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 08:49 | 3035058 Mr Kurtz
Mr Kurtz's picture

Arsenal AK (IMHO) is the best AK on the market. Plus the side mount for optics gives the option to switch to iron sites, as needed. The bayonette lug is just for good all around fun for chasing the wife around the house when she gets behind in her laundry duties.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 08:51 | 3035059 Mr Kurtz
Mr Kurtz's picture

Arsenal AK (IMHO) is the best AK on the market. Plus the side mount for optics gives the option to switch to iron sites, as needed. The added bayonnete appeal is just for good all around fun chasing the wife around the house when she gets behind in her laundry duties.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 09:04 | 3035081 Mr Kurtz
Mr Kurtz's picture

Arsenal AK (IMHO) is the best AK on the market. Plus the side mount for optics gives the option to switch to iron sites, as needed. The added bayonnete appeal is just for good all around fun chasing the wife around the house when she gets behind in her laundry duties.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:08 | 3034137 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

Birdshot to the belly will stop any intruder, but it won't overpenetrate through neighbors houses.

 

That intruder will leave a big mess, and a short blood trail.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:09 | 3034553 Hi Ho Silver
Hi Ho Silver's picture

Number 8 "cut shell".

Big mess without the trail.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:11 | 3036127 RallyRoundTheFamily
RallyRoundTheFamily's picture

I never had the balls to attempt a "cut shell"

Advice anyone?  Seen some videos displaying the "damage"

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 00:02 | 3034696 Fedaykinx
Fedaykinx's picture

... couple of points.  birdshot might or might not penetrate a heavy winter coat very well.  birdshot "to the gut" may or may not kill the intruder.  personally, i'd probably rather be able to just outright kill someone who may or may not pull a .45 off his belt and start blasting instead of attempting to flee.  never underestimate a desperate man, especially not a badly wounded one.

i do have a shotgun for home defense, pistol grip short barrel 870 remington express, with a strobe and laser just to make sure it's extra f'n scary when i come out of my bedroom with it.  first round is high brass #6 that i use for squirrels, rest in the tube are #4 buck.  1 oz slugs on the side saddle.  no magnum loads, all 2 3/4".  the long and the short of it, anyone breaking into my house that doesn't immediately surrender or turn and go back the way they came once confronted is more than likely DRT.  for all sorts of reasons.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 00:47 | 3034768 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

Point blank birdshot to the belly, and you can reach right in, pull out their heart, still beating, and dangle it in front of their face as they die.

 

It leaves a tunnel of burger.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 03:20 | 3034884 Fedaykinx
Fedaykinx's picture

i don't really want to argue about this but i don't operate under the assumption that the only scenario i will be faced with is some guy showing me his belly at point blank range.  light game loads can be lethal at very close ranges that is certain, but toss in some distance from the muzzle, say a heavy leather jacket and a little meth for good measure and you've got yourself a whole nother can of worms.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 02:56 | 3034879 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

You fucking people and your bird shot.  Bird shot is for killing little birdies, not bad people.  Spend 10 seconds googling that on the interwebs so as to keep yourself, anyone stupid enough to listen to you, and your family members from getting killed.  

 

Go shoot a round of bird shot at ballistic gelatin, and get back to me....  (hint) not sufficient trauma to stop the bad people

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 03:25 | 3034887 Fedaykinx
Fedaykinx's picture

there's a bunch of bullshit floating around in this thread for sure.  like, racking a shell is guaranteed to make everyone piss themselves as they run away or even better that you really don't have to aim a shotgun.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:16 | 3034166 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

I'm retired too and have to agree with you, nothing like a short, pump

12 gauge to protect your home. Just the sound of loading one into the

chamber will send anyone with 1/2 a brain running for the exits.

I keep a loaded 12 gauge on both floors of my house and the 

"Governor" ( S&W 6-shot 410 shotgun/ long colt 45 pistol in

my night table drawer next to my bed. If someone breaks in

my house, I don't have to put on my glasses. Just point in the

general direction and pull the trigger. When I go out I carry a 

357.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:26 | 3034393 GoNavy
GoNavy's picture

All that crap should go away if / when you have grandchildren.  Trigger locks and locked gun cabinets.

Your life isn't as valuable as your grandchild's and there's nothing in your house more valuable than them.  Keep your glasses and the key to your trigger lock on your night stand.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:12 | 3034564 Hi Ho Silver
Hi Ho Silver's picture

My HOMAKs are strategically located.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 00:37 | 3034754 Nimby
Nimby's picture

Don't chamber a round and a child can't rack one themselves.  When they are old enough to chamber a round they should already know well enough how to handle a firearm.

Of course, I wouldn't expect a squid to know much about firearms. 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 02:10 | 3034854 Boondocker
Boondocker's picture

my dear squid.   we train our kids to handle guns.....problem solved.....

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:07 | 3034548 Ignorance is bliss
Ignorance is bliss's picture

Mossberg 500 is my first weapon of defense. I hope I never have to use it. God Willing.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:26 | 3034208 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Hi hairball,
I was contemplating adding a shotgun to my arsenal but am a bit nervous if I could handle it. I've shot a Mosberg 500 cruiser at the range and I did ok with it. My husband conned me in to firing his old 1896 30/40 Krag too and the guys at the range really had a belly laugh over that. I'm just glad it's not on U-tube....er I hope it's not! Is there a lot of recoil with your gun?

Miffed:-)

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:36 | 3034246 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Dear Miffed, A 410 shotgun for the ladies is much easier to handle and

just as effective in repeling intruders. 

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:53 | 3034286 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Thanks Zorba!
All the hand guns I have were rented previously so I could see if I could shoot them well. I haven't been able to find a place when one could try out a shot gun. I was lucky a guy at my range had a mosberg and agreed to let me try it after hours because it is against their policy to fire shotguns in the indoor range. I don't think I want to be trying to figure the gun out as someone is barging into my bedroom at 2 AM. Mr miffed doesn't share my concern and feels just racking it should send anyone running. I'm not so sure. That seems too subtle for many present day zombies.

Miffed:-)

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:26 | 3034370 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

Miffed, Mrs. Horseman suggets a 12 gauge Benelli M2 Tactical for the ladies, with a short stock from a vendor that just happens to be local to you in San Diego, Mesa Tactical.  

Add a Surefire forend light, and tritium night sights for the irons.  GG&G release plate and charging handle along with a Nordic extension tube and Urban ERT sling and you are good.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:28 | 3034398 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Wow! Now I have something to put on my Christmas list! Tell her thank you from me. I'm not sure if there are any other women on this thread to advise me:-)

Miffed:-)

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:50 | 3034431 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

Nine (or even 12) .32 caliber 00 pellets with one pull of the 12 guage's trigger is a relaible method for a woman to stop a big, powerful, motivated bad guy.

With good training and practice most any lady can master a 12 guage, especially an inertia driven gun like the M2.  

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 00:05 | 3034699 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

+1 on GG&G and Nordic. Bulked up my Mossy a wee bit.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:46 | 3034272 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

If you did OK with a Mossberg 500, you'd be fine.  Just skip the magnum shells and use a light load.  12 gauge is the way to go, but if they're too much, you could always get a 20 gauge.

.410s are fine for varmints, but I'd advise against 'em if your real concern is defense.  You never want to have to shoot someone twice.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 13:15 | 3036142 RallyRoundTheFamily
RallyRoundTheFamily's picture

20 gauge for the win.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:54 | 3034283 Jam Akin
Jam Akin's picture

I've seen a slender 13 yo boy do OK with a Remington 870 12 ga pump gun.  You can get low recoil buckshot for it too.  And that helps reduce concerns over penetrating outside walls of the house, etc.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:56 | 3034507 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

Mossberg Model 590 with pistol grips and a bayonet(M16).  00 buck 12 pellet ammo.(not nine)  I might entertain an offer on that 30/40 Krag.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 01:40 | 3034831 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

That's mr miffed's baby. I'm sure he wouldn't sell it but ammo is hard to come by and certainly is costly. The guys @ the range really loved it and made offers on it because it had a Calvary attachment on it ( sorry I don't know the proper term) so it could be fired while attached to the saddle. I fired it just to get a feel for handling a gun that size before trying the Mossberg. That was quite an experience! Thank goodness I was shown how to hold it or I would have bruised my shoulder. Amazing a gun that old could still fire so well.

Miffed:-)

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:38 | 3034633 hairball48
hairball48's picture

You'll get lots of opinions and here's mine.

I have a Mossberg 835 with 2 barrels, 18 1/2" for home defense and a 26" turkey barrel.

There's no way around feeling recoil with the heavy loads I prefer 3" 00 Buckshot. That 2000ftlbs of energy has to go somewhere :) Even at 6'4"/190 after 10-15 rounds of practice, my skinny-ass shoulder is black and blue. I just think about the damage I would have done on the other end :)

You can get "low recoil" 2 3/4 .12g buckshot rounds. They are every bit as lethal with much less recoil. The kinetic energy of a so-called "low recoil" .12g round is still a multiple of most handgun loads.

Get a pump shotgun that will fit you as well  as possible. Do not buy those pistol grip things.

Contrary to popular belief and the movies, a shotgun must be "aimed". Learn to shoot a shotgun properly. ..which includes gun safety.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 01:48 | 3034836 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Thanks hairball, it's nice to hear everyone's opinion. I really want to learn as much as possible. The guys at the range were having me hold the Mossberg on my hip instead of my shoulder. I think they felt I'd do better with it that way. I did fire the Krag against my shoulder and boy did I feel that!

Miffed:-)

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:33 | 3034224 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

Hairball is correct. Nothing is better than a shotgun for home defense.  Aim in the general vacinity and fire. We used them in the Marines for guarding high-value things in or near buildings.  AKs are great. For about 100-400 yards max. They are seriously mass produced now by China and formerly Eastern Europe (and God knows where else) and they are dependable but shitty, or I mean shoddy in accuracy.  Perhaps the Russkie ones are better.  That said, they don't break too often, are not overly complicated, and the round they fire is an absolute mutilator (provided it hits the target).

30.06 is probably the best hunting round out there too for the average Joe.  

I suspect big-balling ZH-readers own HKs and such.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:43 | 3034264 Karlus
Karlus's picture

Good luck clearing some corners in your domicile at night with your shotty. I prefer a pistol with a squeeze to light weaponlight. First thing a burg does when he sees the light is freeze. Gives you time to see if its the intruder, or your little girl looking for the "baffroom"

Also, nice 9mm hollowpoints arent going to neighbors houses, but do left you hit a perp ducking behind some sheetrock.

Shotguns are for hunting and if you make the sound when you rack it to show off, you just told the badguys where you are and that you have 4 shots total.

Grrr

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:25 | 3034321 Jam Akin
Jam Akin's picture

Pretty easy to install an extended mag on a pump gun to increase that number of shots to 7.  Any street wise intruder would know that.  

 

Be a rare bird that would stick around to find out the exact round count.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:31 | 3034406 Axenolith
Axenolith's picture

It's not 4 total if you took the damn plug out, it's 'least 7 and 1 :-)

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:50 | 3034678 hairball48
hairball48's picture

People's situations are different. I have no kids and live alone. I have loaded guns all over my apartment. If someone is in here, they're in a heap of trouble. They won't hear me rackin' one in because there's already a round chambered.

I'm not worried about neighbors and over penetration if I'm protecting myself. Fuck them. 

I do keep 9mm Hydroshoks(a type of hollowpoint round) in my Browning HiPower. Hydroshoks in my Model 19 S&W .357 which stays close by my head at night :)

As for letting bad guys know where you are...that light on your weapon makes a mighty fine "target" for me.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:10 | 3034559 IrritableBowels
IrritableBowels's picture

HUGE fan of the .270 cartridge, here.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:35 | 3034241 klockwerks
klockwerks's picture

Hairballs, couldn't agree more about the 12 gauge. Don't plan on looking for trouble but when it comes to you, can't beat a 12 with 000 buck. A very nice pocket gun is the Ruger LPC 9. Feels like a heavier gun but easy to carry and great balance. Weapon of choice when leaving the house, with my CHL of course.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 23:59 | 3034689 hairball48
hairball48's picture

.12g shotgun is an underrated weapon 'cause it's not too "sexy" as guns go.

I like my Browning HiPower for carrying. Again, not as sexy as the new Glocks and Berettas. However, the HiPower is a fine pistol. John Browning was a gun genius. Simple, bombproof design with 13round capacity.  The basic design is nearly 100 years old and yet the HiPower is still a widely used and respected pistol. Been carried by nearly every major armed force in the world, including "special forces", at one time or another in the past. The British SAS used HiPowers for years. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:41 | 3034259 BeerBrewer09
BeerBrewer09's picture

anyone ever shoot one of the SRM 1216 Shotguns?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiZgSXfN-BA

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 20:58 | 3034093 sangell
sangell's picture

Just another commie knock off of a German assault rifle. Like everything else from the ex USSR it was either stolen or copied from more advanced peoples.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:07 | 3034125 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

Yep. At the end of the day, it's the guy or gal with the rifle that really matters.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:15 | 3034163 hairball48
hairball48's picture

Mighty Right. It ain't the gun, it's the gunner.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:28 | 3034213 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

+1 Aim small, miss small

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:10 | 3034142 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

Ever hear of the mosin nagant?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:13 | 3034153 economics9698
economics9698's picture

91/30 fires 7.62x54, cheap, great weapon.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:25 | 3034202 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

100% Russian design, except for the remington and westinghouse outsourced versions comissioned by the czar.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:53 | 3034290 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture
Ginseng, you seem pretty up on your Mosins if you know about the Westinghouse version but you are not correct that the design is 100% Russian.  The bolt design itself is partialy borrowed from a Belgium design.  For anyone who has ever taken that bolt apart, they have likely not forgotten the experience.:-)

And for whoever is worrying about running out of mil-spec ammo for these beasts.... don't worry.  I still have some 54R from WWII!(and it fires every time)  As for reloading for these rifles, let's just say this, I have brand new die, never fired boxer style brass and the .311 dia bullets and I bought it all five years ago.  Never used because....why bother?

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:13 | 3034350 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

Maybe they didn't invent the bolt, or rifling like the Austrians did, or metallic cartridges, or tangent sights, but if the design wasn't Russian then, it sure is now, considering the volume produced and the durability displayed, but thanks for the info. I thought it was 100% Russian.

 

I don't like mil-surp ammo, because it's fmj.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:31 | 3034408 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

Not all 54R mil-surp is bad.  If you can find the Czech made "silver tip" you would be in good shape as they seem to be the most accurate out of the carbine Mosins.(M38 and M44)  Most of the mil-surp out there was loaded for the M91 long rifle.  That would explain the huge pumpkin sized fireball that no doubt you have experienced if you have ever shot a Mosin carbine.

Something you should note:  Most Mosin mil-surp has a steel core inside.  If you look at the headstamp of any soviet satellite manufactured ammo, you will be able to track exactly what the bullet is and when the cartridge was made.  If you do not trust the headstamp, I would suggest a Dremel tool to inspect.  Simply cut away at the midpoint of the ogive on the bullet to see what's inside.(don't overheat the bullet because well...)

This is the ammo you would want for the Mosin carbines.  Too bad it is dated link but it has a picture.  The light blue boxes with the silver stripe are well made.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=280709

 

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 00:40 | 3034758 Ginsengbull
Ginsengbull's picture

Nyet!

 

I want soft point, or hollow point, or ballistic tip in front of good old fashioned lead core.

 

Eff the geneva convention. What do the swiss know anyhow? Nobody wears their watches when they can get a Casio for $10.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 01:02 | 3034792 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

I will be honest here, I have never even loaded for any of the Mosins.  I have checked the headspacing on several Mosin rifles.  Not "good". 

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 22:35 | 3034424 Axenolith
Axenolith's picture

400 rounds into a 1000 round case of .303 British, without a misfire, and it was manufactured in 1918.  Ammo kept dry is probably good til the second coming...

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 21:55 | 3034297 PeterSchump
PeterSchump's picture

Mr. Nagant would argue with you.

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