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Putting America's Tax Hike In Perspective

Tyler Durden's picture


One of those occasions when one picture really does speak a thousands words.

Houston, we may have a spending problem.


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Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:06 | 3111899 tsx500
tsx500's picture


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:20 | 3111931 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Forward has just been changed to free fall.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:27 | 3111943 Middle_Finger_Market
Middle_Finger_Market's picture

Free fall to free for all. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:57 | 3112038 CH1
CH1's picture

We're saved!!!

All hail our whorish overlords!!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:39 | 3112157 knukles
knukles's picture

Now we resume our regular programming.


(Congrats, Tyler.  Linked from Drudge... gettin' mainstream recognition.  Long way from shat upon by CNBS.... Happy New Year)

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:40 | 3112161 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

1 step FORWARD... 1000 steps back

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:00 | 3112210 negative rates
negative rates's picture

People willingly pay taxes,  by their own accord, or out of stupidity. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:03 | 3112215 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

Damn, gotta get me one of them central banks.  Do you know how I can get an application?  

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:13 | 3112237 economics9698
economics9698's picture

You have to be of sub human linage and a worshiper of sticks and twigs.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:20 | 3112257 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture


budgets grow exponentially, so the data should always be displayed on a log scale to be meaningful

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:32 | 3112409 Muppet Pimp
Muppet Pimp's picture

Look at what they have done since they killed JFK:

1 month after his death silver dropped from 90% to 40%, and five years later no more silver in coins.

These are not coincidences, we were infiltrated.  The numbers speak for themselves.

The 'war on poverty' is code for implementing communism by getting everyone on the teat.

Can you hear me now?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 15:29 | 3112546 Richard Chesler
Richard Chesler's picture

Let us face Mecca five times a day and intone "In debt we trust".

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 16:22 | 3112690 economics9698
economics9698's picture

Substitute 33 Liberty Plaza for Mecca. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:20 | 3112819 This just in
This just in's picture

QUick! SOmeone find out what Justin Bieber thinks about all of this!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:39 | 3112867 putaipan
putaipan's picture

to paraphrase the best post i saw left here last year- "it's almost like somone hatched this plan at a secrtet meeting on a secluded island somewhere"

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:49 | 3113161 Michaelwiseguy
Michaelwiseguy's picture

As the world turns and the probability of ever paying back the national debt drops to zero, on a long enough timeline.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 22:00 | 3113176 CPL
CPL's picture

Once you hit 100% GDP, which everyone is now, that's the point of no return.


All that's happening now is people are taking bets when the train hits the mountain.  Fast or slow, doesn't matter, the train is destroyed and nobody gets to ride anymore.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:41 | 3113250 GOLDTRADERRR

No need to consult with Justin Bieber.

Honey Boo Boo is the 'go to' girl for economic advice.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:14 | 3112241 Enslavethechild...
EnslavethechildrenforBen's picture

Cops need to arrest the real criminals and leave their victims alone. What we really need to do as a nation is place all the cops under citizens arrest, then remove the criminals from office.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:41 | 3113254 GOLDTRADERRR

Who is this 'we' you speak of Kemo Sabe?

Who makes the first move?

And how many of you can 'we' count on to cover our backs

when the lead starts flying?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 23:19 | 3113752 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

I couldn't agree more.  1000000000+ to you.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 01:48 | 3114133 caconhma
caconhma's picture

America, Charge!


We are fucking doomed.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:09 | 3112359 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

It's best to just follow what the central banks are doing. Slowly accumulate real assets and become your own central bank.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:04 | 3113200 brettd
brettd's picture

And stay out of debt.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 23:47 | 3113799 honestpolitician
honestpolitician's picture

OK...just askin...why stay out of debt....with interest rates on Refi at 2.75 on 15 yr fixed why not take out as much equity as possible from your house and reinvest elsewhere?  I think these rates will climb before year end and numbers like these will not be seen again in my lifetime.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 15:36 | 3112565 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture

jekyll island,


No application.

An ounce at a time.

"Keep stacking my friends"

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:04 | 3112219 Popo
Popo's picture

 The reality is inescapable:  America will do nothing do slow down or change course.  Stick a fork in America.  She's done.  

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:13 | 3112238 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Popo...we've told them so many times it's probably not worth telling the ignorant & blind assholes again, but for the one millionth's a spending problem not a funding problem!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:21 | 3112390 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1 trillion.  But, a trillion ain't what it used to be.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 15:34 | 3112562 centerline
centerline's picture

It's a math problem.  Ponzi schemes eventually implode.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 15:43 | 3112588 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

QE baby!  What' a little inflation when the world is facing financial meltdown?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:14 | 3113087 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

If inflation is all we need to worry about, buy EVERYTHING on credit.

Dollars (wages) will increase while debt will remain the same.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:09 | 3112800 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

It is a spending problem because the money spent gets made out of nothing as debts.

For those able to make money out of nothing, every possible excuse is a "good idea."

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 00:44 | 3113972 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

I wish we were still in the present progressive

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:11 | 3113083 foofoojin
foofoojin's picture

on the flip side, people do receive entitlements, by others accord, or out of others stupidity. by a gun to others head.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:25 | 3113240 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

I willingly pay taxes to stay out of prison.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 21:55 | 3113538 Captain Kink
Captain Kink's picture

And there you have it....there it is.  

I hate myself for feeding the beast in this way.  

But I have kids.......the fact is that I should refuse and suffer the consequences BECAUSE I have kids!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 22:43 | 3113686 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

They sound more like hostages than kids.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 02:53 | 3114187 Liberty2012
Liberty2012's picture

You would be refusing the current payment system, not the taxes. It happened in the Depression. WSJ ran on article on it a few years back. There were various forms of money around the country. Most seemed to involve getting several signatures on a note/check before redeeming - apparently an attempt to reverse the ponzi - making sure value was actually occurring. Some were just additional currency - even "ten cent" sea shells in a town in California.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 02:51 | 3114188 Liberty2012
Liberty2012's picture

Sorry - double post

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:42 | 3112170 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

Now we resume our regular programmed spending.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:09 | 3112365 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

A link from drudge is a death knell. so sorry to have to look at zh as infiltrated and ultimately owned.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:07 | 3112795 Lore
Lore's picture

Agreed -- A link from Drudge is NOT a compliment

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:19 | 3112818 tickhound
tickhound's picture

We should welcome all willing Drudgies into de-tox.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:49 | 3112891 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Without Drudge I never would have found ZH. Okay, no not many will make the effort and figure it out but some may. Without ZH I can imagine where I would be now....a fatter sheep ready for the slaughter.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:52 | 3113045 monkeyshine
monkeyshine's picture

They shoot rabid dogs too. And wild monkeys.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 04:17 | 3114254 1fortheroad
1fortheroad's picture

I dont know about wild monkeys.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:40 | 3113145 Ima anal sphincter
Ima anal sphincter's picture

Multitudes of Mutton.

Breakfast, Lunch, and Dinner for the banker wolves.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 06:19 | 3114319 Anasteus
Anasteus's picture

Benny, we may have a spending problem.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:51 | 3112329 Snakeeyes
Snakeeyes's picture


Tax increases 5.7% of deficit and tax increases to spending cuts = 44:1 ratio.

Summary: no spending cuts, trivial tax increases (for gov't ravenous appetite, that is!)

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:09 | 3112935 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

Keep obama in president

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 21:44 | 3113508 Campagnolo
Campagnolo's picture

free fall or escape velocity?

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 01:08 | 3114043 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

No, FREE STUFF for all.

The deficit is the difference between what we want and what we are actually willing and able to pay for. Since, 1969 we have wanted more stuff than what we were willing to pay for. We balanced the budgets only by complete accident during the tech bubble burst of wealth and tax revenues. It did not outstip the ability and willingness to spend.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:18 | 3112094 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

it will in all actuality be a lot less than the above $62B when it is loopholed, written off and offshored. happy new year.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:23 | 3112393 TheSilverJournal
TheSilverJournal's picture

Yes, it could even result in less money brought in through tax revenue. But hey, appearances are all that matter at this point...anything to create doubt that the world economy is one giant debt ponzi.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 00:43 | 3113965 mt paul
mt paul's picture

and the checks for free....

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 16:15 | 3112669 venturen
venturen's picture


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:55 | 3113173 ball-and-chain
ball-and-chain's picture

I have no sympathy for the rich.

Take all their money.

Perhaps I'm a filthy communist.

I just can't help myself.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:07 | 3111901 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

It's not a problem if you are a recipient of the spending...

Perspective, man...perspective.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:12 | 3112808 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

It is especially not a problem if you are the one able to make the money out of nothing to spend, as long as you can continue to force everyone else to go along with that fraud.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:08 | 3113076 auric1234
auric1234's picture

It's not money. As soon as people realize it's just worthless paper, the emperor will appear naked.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:50 | 3113158 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

Yes, auric1234, you are correct, "It's not money." Gradually the meaning of the word "money" became inverted and perverted.  The word "money" originally referred to metal coins. In particular, the dollar, as money, MEANT an amout of minted silver.

Gradually, the international banksters bribed American politicians to change the meaning of the word "money," to become the opposite of what it used to mean. In 1874, a legislative trick demonetized silver, and thus, the destruction of the meaning of the word "money" began, which then picked up speed, as "money" became credits, or money-as-debt, rather than "money" with intrinsic value, backed by silver and gold. It is astonishing to recognize that, under the current system, if there was NO debt, then there would be NO money! That is how out of control insane the American system has become, whereby the very meaning of words was reversed!

But nevertheless, there IS something more than worthless paper. There is the full force of the American police and armed forced, to back up the legalized fraud that we now call the "money" system. The Emperor may be naked, but nevertheless, is very well armed with weapons of mass destruction!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 22:07 | 3113569 Captain Kink
Captain Kink's picture

Fuck the recipients.  

Fucking rapists. At gunpoint, no less.

Some say meat is murder.  Progressive taxation is torture, and an insult to the recipients. Fucking losers. Think they're "Winning".

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 22:51 | 3113699 pods
pods's picture

Income tax is slavery.

Shit, I could make the argument that fiat currency is slavery.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:07 | 3111902 BattlegroundEur...
BattlegroundEurope2011's picture

How dumb are the American ppl?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:10 | 3111907 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Look in the mirror, Europe.  You'll get your answer.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:13 | 3111916 john39
john39's picture

why stop at Europe... the debt bomb is a global issue (by design)....  and countries that won't go for debt master's fiat hell, get the real bombs.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:16 | 3111922 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Yea, but it's always great to see a self-absorbed European believe it's an 'Amerikkkan' issue.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:58 | 3112039 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture


Glass houses, dude.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:25 | 3112117 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:48 | 3112181 knukles
knukles's picture

Off to the Never Ending Summer Reeducation Camp for him.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:24 | 3112396 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

We'll be coming up to the 5th Summer of Recovery in a few months!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:18 | 3111910 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture



It's not that they're dumb; just blind and greedy.

It is difficult to get a man to see something when his paycheck is dependent on him not seeing it.

Even most alcoholics know they have a drinking problem; but they still can't stop drinking...



Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:11 | 3112080 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

yeah, cheers...

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:38 | 3112299 Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

I would not even say they're blind and greedy. I would rather suggest that they have been matrixed.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:15 | 3111915 Landotfree
Landotfree's picture

"How dumb are the American ppl?"

fixed for you

How dumb are humans on this floating rock?

They can eliminate the whole budget deficit and all of government, and the financial system will still collapse, matter of fact I would expect it to collape overnight.



The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version. 

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bull****."* 

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows. 

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:21 | 3111933 Cursive
Cursive's picture


Whoever coined the term "sheeple" long ago was onto something.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:33 | 3111969 Joe A
Joe A's picture

Just as dumb as us Europeans. We believe the crisis in the Eurozone is over because Oli Rehn says so.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:48 | 3112008 CPL
CPL's picture


How dumb are ppl?




Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:13 | 3112370 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture


"Shell and its contractors are no match for Alaska's weather and sea conditions either during drilling operations or during transit."

The grounding of the Kulluk, a conical, Arctic-class drill ship weighing nearly 28,000 gross tonnes, is a blow to Shell's $4.5bn (£2.8bn) offshore programme in Alaska. Its plan to convert the area into a major new oil frontier has alarmed environmentalists and many Alaska Natives, but excited industry supporters.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:33 | 3112143 toomanyfakecons...
toomanyfakeconservatives's picture

I don't care much, as long as they always represent the largest army on earth and have an overwhelming edge in firepower, such that in the end, they will always be in charge. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:20 | 3112386 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture

 There is truth in your statement.

The Empire is subsidized by the rest of the world.

by such methods as:

1) exchange of goods for fiat "Confederate" IOUs.

2) petrodollar financial extortion racket

3) investments in bankster (Goldman Sachs et al) "securities"

4) resource plunder by corruption (IMF and dependent despots) and outright theft (Libyan oil and gold).

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 00:52 | 3113984 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

and just as true is that this MO becomes an empire's own undoing as it must feed more and more resource into a less and less effective military as the rest of the world starts to get a clue and resist. Then, the empire starts to run out of resources at an exponential rate. It then turns on its own citizens. We're somewhere near the last chapter.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 16:36 | 3112736 imbrbing
imbrbing's picture

Coming to a neighborhood near you

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:19 | 3112816 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

The largest army on Earth is able to OVER-kill everybody thousands of times, instead of only hundreds, or dozens of times, like the lesser armies could. The largest pyramid scheme is backed up by the firepower threat to commit global suicide as the "alternative." WE WILL NOT CARE, UNTIL WE CAN NOT CARE, AND SO, THERE IS NO NEED TO WORRY.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:36 | 3113258 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

the largest army on earth is the armed populous of these several states.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 13:29 | 3112277 yogibear
yogibear's picture

"How dumb are the American ppl"

Extremely, look who the sheeple elected.



Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:00 | 3112347 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Referring to the Tea Pary creationist fools no doubt....

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:43 | 3112441 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

No, I believe he's referring to the maggots who re-elected him.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 21:17 | 3113272 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

You tool.  Not all Tea Party members are creationists.  On the contrary, they believe in real science including Darwin's laws.  Its the so called progressives who are the true creationists with there selfserving created scientific outcomes and their money created out of thin air.  Additionally, you have created a giant headache for me.  Fuck off. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 22:13 | 3113602 jomama
jomama's picture

considering Darwin's theory has yet to be proven, and now in the present with the lack of evidence for anything even remotely resembling the 'missing link',  i'd say belief in this 'real science' is somewhat unfounded. 

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 01:21 | 3114077 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

As opposed to atheists who might believe in central planning and collectivism?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:35 | 3113138 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

"How dumb are the American ppl?"

Well, let's see...they use 25% of the oil each year while being broke as Greece, have more weapons than all other countries combined, have countries around the world suckered into holding their bonds, and all while maintaining a massive trade deficit for decades.

Who's dumb again?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:10 | 3111908 Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades's picture

Senate clearly saying "Get back to work Bernank!"

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:48 | 3112010 CPL
CPL's picture


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:14 | 3112376 zelator
zelator's picture


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:11 | 3111909 dogfish
dogfish's picture

They reelected Obozo.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:19 | 3111929 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

We are witnessing the end of a once great country. Where are the patriots? Who will stop this madness?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:22 | 3111935 Water Is Wet
Water Is Wet's picture

Endtimes revelation #983753995303535321 on Zerohedge this year.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:26 | 3112400 HurricaneSeason
HurricaneSeason's picture

And that chart is totally taken out of context. $62 billion this year, $62 billion next year and pretty soon you're talking about a lot of money.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 15:33 | 3112558 TradingChief
TradingChief's picture

Interest rates move up 1% and you pay another $160,000,000,000 in interest per year, pretty soon you are talking real money lol

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:09 | 3112801 HurricaneSeason
HurricaneSeason's picture

Not only that, if they add another $2.5 trillion to the debt ceiling, like they did about 15 months ago, that's about 15% added to the national debt and the interest payment this year was about $300 billion (at ridiculously low interest), so that'd be about another $45 billion a year in interest if they raise the debt ceiling that much again.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 15:51 | 3112605 Acet
Acet's picture

Actually the chart is like-to-like: it shows deficit - the yearly increase in debt - versus tax take increase - a yearly increase in government income.

If fact, that's the really scary bit - that tax increase will barelly dent the existing yearly increase in debt.

An even more scary one is that, if the chart showed the US public debt, it would need to be 16 times taller (or that little slice showing tax increase would need to be about 5 pixels high).


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:13 | 3112809 HurricaneSeason
HurricaneSeason's picture

You're just a fear mongerer, we get rewards points for every pixel on the tall one.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 19:54 | 3116839 tboss
tboss's picture

trillion this year.. trillion next year.. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:24 | 3111936 Lucius Corneliu...
Lucius Cornelius Sulla's picture

Not who, but what. The what is inflation.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:27 | 3111949 Cursive
Cursive's picture

@Everybodys All American

The Patriots will play a Divisional Series Playoff game in roughly two weeks from now and Ron Paul just lost his primary bid to be a presidential nominee.  That's the only high-level patriots I know.  Since anyone who opposses our current tax and spend regime is swiftly branded a racist/child hater, I and most people like myself have decided to withdraw from the public square and wait for the reset.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:34 | 3111972 Water Is Wet
Water Is Wet's picture

You lost.  The mob won.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:54 | 3112028 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Thats yet to be seen.  When everything crashes, we'll see how well the mob does.  They'll be eating each other before its all said and done probably.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:02 | 3112061 Water Is Wet
Water Is Wet's picture

Endtimes revelation #983753995303535322 on Zerohedge.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:03 | 3112064 Cursive
Cursive's picture

@Beam Me Up Scotty

My plan is to stay in doors, clinging to my guns and my religion, waiting for the Angel of Death to passover my house.

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 01:24 | 3114082 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

"Rome is the mob."

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:16 | 3112087 Next to Arch Stanton
Next to Arch Stanton's picture

We can explain the situation patiently to those who would listen - problem is, it's not a quick conversation and people don't have the patience to listen to the facts nor do they want to let go of their version of the status quo.  A discussion about our flawed fractional reserved banking system, fiat currency, etc, would take too long for the average American's attention span.  Telling people that the economy as they understand it may change for something worse is not what people want to hear.  This is the USA.  Things always get better, regardless of personal effort.

I tried (again) explaining to family over Xmas what I think is coming in the next year +/- concerning US/global debt problem.  All counter-arguments were very predictable as they were lifted right out of the headlines or off evening news.  No facts, data.  I could see my brother, father and mother becoming more agitated, irritated when I kept providing fact-based counters to their points. That's when they start telling me that I am too obsessed with the "doom" outlook.  My mother actually tried to comfort me as she thought I was upset that no one agreed with me.  Unfuckingbelievable.  And they are actually pretty intelligent people, imo.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:32 | 3112139 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

Quit beating your head against their wall. It's only giving you a headache, and annoying them.

Ask them a few thought provoking questions, then back off and let them ponder the answers on their own.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 19:53 | 3113171 SMG
SMG's picture

Very good point.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:03 | 3113188 akak
akak's picture

Unfortunately, Jendrzejczyk, you are assuming that the sheep have both the ability AND the willingness to ponder anything at all. 
I strongly suspect that most possess neither.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 21:51 | 3113528 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

Ak, I'm assuming the ones worth saving are smart enough to take the subtle hints.

Pure Darwin from there, and your conscience is clear.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:33 | 3112149 flacon
flacon's picture

Yeah it's pretty amazing when talking to some people who just can't seem to understand the most basic elementary things. 


I usually try different tacts:


1. Have them watch the youtube video MONEY AS DEBT


2. Ask them who has a greater net worth, that homeless man who sleeps under the bridge and owns a shopping cart of his belongings, or your neighbour who is hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt?


3. They just can not comprehend that money and economics is rather simple - they think it's UN-KNOW-ABLE and should be unknowable because they like the concept of having their needs taken care of by our god-men bankers ande politicians.


4. Just stop talking about it and realize that the world would be a better place without these parasites on it. You don't have to tell them that but just think about it in your own mind. 


To be honest I have had to revert to #4 most often. 




Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:45 | 3112178 Next to Arch Stanton
Next to Arch Stanton's picture

flacon - no doubt you have been awake longer than I have.  I have come a long way in the past year, but still struggle with how to discuss these issues with others.  Good advice.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:51 | 3112186 flacon
flacon's picture

It doesn't get any easier with time - but I have figured out that some people just can't or won't put forth the effort to understand. It could be what the Bible talks about as the "Great Delusion" of the end times..... I don't know. 



Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:23 | 3112825 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:15 | 3112377 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

@ Next to Arch Stanton,

Remember, they're under Psycke Warfare/PsyOp and Propagandized with Disinfo/Misinfo which is the art of Psyche Warfare by the bankster owned Intelligence Controlled Media/Military Industrial Complex/CIA.

Reach and have discussions with like minded individuals.  The art of PsyOp is very powerful.  Not knowing and denying your under are the individuals which can't and can never be reached or awakend and pose a threat. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:50 | 3112453 Clever Name
Clever Name's picture

+1 for the reference to the greatest movie of all time, Freddies views on Hollywood notwithstanding.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:48 | 3112869 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

Yeah, Clever Name, the "MONEY AS DEBT" MAD movie is the one I recommend to people who know nothing.

I feature it first on my list of favourite videos about the monetary system:

That movie's maker, Paul Grignon, also has a series of good theoretical ideas regarding various idealized "solutions." However, although he knows perfectly well that the real money system is FRAUD BACKED BY FORCE, but nevertheless, he persists in presenting sublime solutions, which are based on presuming political miracles that the biggest gangsters, the banksters, would somehow stop being out of control criminals, able and willing to be mass murderers, in order to allow any of such sublime theoretical solutions to ever be implemented.

In general, I like the sublime theoretical solutions presented by Paul Grignon, as well as illustrative others, such as Ellen Brown and Bill Still. HOWEVER, the reality is that money is backed by murder. The best organized gangs of criiminals have already taken over the political system, and they will continue to control it in the future in the same ways that they were able to take control in the past, namely by surpassing everyone else at being dishonest, and backing that up with violence.

The most important ways in which the vast majority of people are Zombie Sheeple, that DO NOT WANT TO UNDERSTAND, are that the only real alternatives would require them being willing and able to take over the murder systems, and actually decide upon and carry through the death controls. Since they do not want to do that, and do not want to understand why they should do that, we will continue to default to the tiny minority of Vicious Wolves running "our" governments, because they are willing and able to be as dishonest and violent and they are.

I am not aware of any videos which go beyond being versions of reactionary revolutions. There is nothing in the public space that I am aware of which takes the next logical step after facing the real facts that money is backed by murder.

Anyone who thinks it is difficult to wake up ordinary people to the first level of truth, namely that the financial system is fundamentally fraud backed by force, should try the next step of explaining WHY that exists, and therefore, the ONLY real solutions are to do that better than the current banksters are doing it!

... Welcome to the Fringe Cubed, and multiplying!!!!

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:52 | 3112190 EINSILVERGUY

I found a similar situation.

I'm 50 and graduated 25 years ago with a Finance degree and spent 10 years in Banking and Brokerage toiling as a middle level employee trying to do the right thing while becoming more aware of the lack of ethics and morality in those industries. I left in the mid 90's and moved into the high tech world where I have worked for the last 15 years to greate success and happiness. I have always kept an eye toward the financial industry but it was only in the last 5 years that I saw the light.  It took a lot of analysis and reading/listening to alternative sources to start seeing things for what they are.  The Creature from Jekyll Island taught me more than the 4 years of college and 5 years I worked as a financial analyst.

It took me years to have reached the point where in 2008 I recognized what was happening and what will happen. I was a lifelong republican but see that politics is just swapping one set of corrupt leaders for another.  I know that Obama is evil and is intent on destroying this country but I don't see the other side demonstrating a moral counterweight (outside a select few).  

I've been taking steps to prepare for the end game. I've been preaching to friends, family and co workers for the better part of 3 years with various degrees of acceptability.  I've reconciled that I can advise and proselytize the message but I cannot make them move through the learning curve any faster than they can move themselves and in a lot of cases, some will never get "it".  It is difficultt to explain succintly how the whole system is flawed and won't end well. Its a complicated integration of politics, social order, economics and history.  Its frustrating to know that people have a chance to mitigate the impact of what is coming but can't take time away from their consumption driven lives and their insular "matrix".

All you can do is help those that understand and talk to those willing to challenge their own construct


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:16 | 3112285 AgAu_man
AgAu_man's picture

1 AG guy, it sounds a lot like a religion they have and observe, and you are trying to change that.

And we all know what the success rate is at making religious converts?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:51 | 3112895 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

Yes! The monetary system is our STATE RELIGION.

& Money is more a social taboo topic than sex was!

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 05:54 | 3114303 Acet
Acet's picture

I've been noticing that to a large degree the problem is that people simply don't like to hear neagative things, more so when the explanation overlwelms their intelectual abilities (funny thing, one of my side theories is that belief in a deity or pantheon provides emotional and intellectual confort to those that can't cope with or understand the complexity and uncertaity of live by giving them an easy explanation in the form of omnipotent figures of authority).

I reckon this is in part due to consumerism and the continuous conditioning of people to act on impulse, be needy and be driven by their lowest most basal desires to the point that adults have become heavilly infantilised in our societies.


Wed, 01/02/2013 - 06:16 | 3114317 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

spot on, including the infantitization of societies (imo an unintended consequence of third wave feminism and individualism, and so more visible and progressed in AngloAmerican societies - but I digress)

but there is another aspect

when French battleships came to collect gold in 1968, Nixon kicked successfully the US can forty years in the future

it's very difficult to plan at any level when you don't see how far in the future the can lands

most of the people who could now say "told ya" are dead

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:50 | 3112455 Room 101
Room 101's picture

A suggestion: sometimes the WHY is not so important as the WHAT YOU DO ABOUT IT. Truth without action is really just a form of intellectual masturbation.  

What you could do is identify the worst fear of the family member or friend and then gently guide them to action to mitigate the potential damage.  It's odd, but you find that the prudent planning you do to contend with anticipated disaster A, B, or C is pretty much the same thing that you do with anticipated disaster X, Y, or Z.  Or said another way, the things that you do to mitigate the feared and anticipated earthquake are much the same as what you do to mitigate an anticipated financial meltdown.  As a family member or friend, do you really care why they plan so long as they plan and execute the plan?



Tue, 01/01/2013 - 15:07 | 3112486 hawk nation
hawk nation's picture

I cant predict but i can prepare

I also think the reset could be a very good thing if you live in a state that is conservative and does not run a deficit. IN THIS CASE WHY CANT THERE BE ECONOMIC GROWTH WHEN THE FOOT OF THE GOVERNMENT IS OFF THE PRODUCTIVE CLASS

If you live in a major metropolitan area then it will get ugly in IMHO

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:58 | 3112206 Nikao7
Nikao7's picture

Been there done that is a sad and frustrating situation.  Your story is spot to my own concerning my attempts to enlighten my own family...I mean spot on.  Feel you brother.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 16:22 | 3112689 ugmug
ugmug's picture

Recently I waited in line for 3 hours to see the Emancipation Proclamation here in DC and I asked people standing there if they believed that we are in deep trouble concerning the fiscal cliff. They all laughed and said that is was a hoax perpetrated by the republicans. All these people were in there 50's and all worked for the US government. It is worse than a horror movie watching these idiots laugh at their own financial demise.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:32 | 3112411 verum quod lies
verum quod lies's picture

Don't beat yourself up too much, as I suspect this is more common than we care to admit to ourselves. I suspect I've not been welcomed with open arms at many family gatherings for some time for spouting out truths here and there.

On a more uplifting note, I have read a few studies on learning as it relates to hindsight bias and overconfidence, which BTW are very resistant to learning (i.e., very, very resistant) and I think they can offer a piece of confirmed advice as relates to trying to get someone to face facts without dropping your pumpkin pie. There have been many techniques and tricks tried by psychologists and yet only two things have proved effective: (1) Try to get the person to look for discrepant information (i.e., try to get the person(s) to look at the issue in a different way; e.g., and as mentioned, ask them a question like: What then do you think is the right relative amount of debt and spending ...?) (2) Brutal repetitive exercises (i.e., essentially going over the problem or contradiction again and again until they get it, or have that aha moment as it were - essentially like most learning in grade school). Therefore, for family members, and as pointed out already, your best bet is asking them questions that allow them to tease out the truth and face it directly. For example: "You say that this 'fiscal cliff' merely requires a few tax increases and some moderate spending decreases (just like Barry Soetoro and the gang keep insisting), yet isn't it odd that I just read this book (and I can buy a copy for you if you want) that states that almost every country that spends as much as we do and prints as much money as we do is unable avoiding a financial crisis that turns into an economic one? Boy, could it be that the U.S. is just different and so special that it will now avoid what almost every country in its current position has never been able to avoid?  ..." Anyway, you get the idea; but even though I advise this I must tell you that I should do this smoothly, yet I still have a hell of a time not yelling fire when I see, smell, and feel a fire.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 15:34 | 3112560 jumbo maverick
jumbo maverick's picture

"I have read a few studies on learning as it relates to hindsight bias and overconfidence..."

I am interested in reading about this. Any way you could steer me in this direction where I wouldn't have to spend a lot of time sifting through material on the net? Thanks.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:34 | 3112417 verum quod lies
verum quod lies's picture

Don't beat yourself up too much, as I suspect this is more common than we care to admit to ourselves. I suspect I've not been welcomed with open arms at many family gatherings for some time for spouting out truths here and there.

On a more uplifting note, I have read a few studies on learning as it relates to hindsight bias and overconfidence, which BTW are very resistant to learning (i.e., very, very resistant) and I think they can offer a piece of confirmed advice as relates to trying to get someone to face facts without dropping your pumpkin pie. There have been many techniques and tricks tried by psychologists and yet only two things have proved effective: (1) Try to get the person to look for discrepant information (i.e., try to get the person(s) to look at the issue in a different way; e.g., and as mentioned, ask them a question like: What then do you think is the right relative amount of debt and spending ...?) (2) Brutal repetitive exercises (i.e., essentially going over the problem or contradiction again and again until they get it, or have that aha moment as it were - essentially like most learning in grade school). Therefore, for family members, and as pointed out already, your best bet is asking them questions that allow them to tease out the truth and face it directly. For example: "You say that this 'fiscal cliff' merely requires a few tax increases and some moderate spending decreases (just like Barry Soetoro and the gang keep insisting), yet isn't it odd that I just read this book (and I can buy a copy for you if you want) that states that almost every country that spends as much as we do and prints as much money as we do is unable avoiding a financial crisis that turns into an economic one? Boy, could it be that the U.S. is just different and so special that it will now avoid what almost every country in its current position has never been able to avoid?  ..." Anyway, you get the idea; but even though I advise this I must tell you that I should do this smoothly, yet I still have a hell of a time not yelling fire when I see, smell, and feel a fire.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 14:52 | 3112458 hound dog vigilante
hound dog vigilante's picture

Imagine the relentless tide of ignorance that Ron Paul has endured over 40 years... and people complain that he isn't charismatic enough, etc.  The man is a saint.


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 16:04 | 3112626 PlausibleDenial
PlausibleDenial's picture

I was at a party last night discussing the banksters and the economy.  Now I am labeled paranoid.  I told my girlfriend on the way home that I really don't want to go to any more parties as those folks will be knocking on my door looking for food one day.  Fuck them.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 16:29 | 3112713 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

Been dealing with the same for years, I'm tired of dealing with closed minds and avoid wasting my time with it.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 18:48 | 3113035 Room 101
Room 101's picture

IF they're people you care about, you might try to find out what disaster they really fear on the horizon and gently nudge them toward planning for that.  It doesn't matter much what the disaster is, the planning for it in my view is pretty much the same.  Water, Food, Shelter, Medicine, a means of defending it, and real assets to prosper with later.     

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 16:41 | 3112743 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture



Unfuckingbelievable.  And they are actually pretty intelligent people, imo.

Another example of sheeple believing what they want to believe. 

Facts don't matter.  Facts are ignored.  Reality is ignored..  They live in a fantasy.

America is full of these sheeple.  It's why America isn't worth saving.

These millions of sheeple really need to die off, and many will in the difficulties ahead.  Don't spend energy and resources trying to help them and save them.  They're not worth saving.

Letting them go, letting them starve and die, it's tough, but it's what they deserve. 

Having enough mental toughness to stand back letting stupid blind sheeple die.  That's one of the challenges of survival.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 17:45 | 3112878 Whoa Dammit
Whoa Dammit's picture

Philosophcal question for you Cranky :

If I think you're a stupid blind sheep, and you think I'm a stupid blind sheep, who is the one living in a fantasy, and who is the one that should be let starve and die?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 21:06 | 3113324 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture



It doesn't matter who we think is or isn't.   Our opinion isnt needed.

They'll demonstrate who they are by ignoring the warning signs and not preparing. 

This is where a slow decline would be better, giving them more time to open their eyes and see what reality is.

A fast decline, or outright collapse, is where they'll get caught for sure. 

And they'll be the first ones expecting everyone to help them.  Completely selfish, completely corrupted, not worth being helped, no value to the human race, useless eaters, leeches.

America is full of 'em,   Probably 70% of the population now, and that percentage is growing.

Back in 1776 they were 20% of the population, maybe less.

It's not just the government getting corrupted.  It's society too.  What we see happening in government is happening in society too, at about the same rate. 

It's why Obama and Reid and Pelosi and Feinstien and people like that get re-elected, put back in office by people just like them out in society.

Its not just ignorance.   It's flat out disgusting selfishness.


Wed, 01/02/2013 - 01:33 | 3114109 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Been there, too, Arch. Try talking to your parents and grandparents about the stats and all their "free" benefits. My mom told me she knows Obama is bad for the economy but there are "good things" in the Obamacare so she voted for him. She cannot name one thing but believes it is good on balance.

It takes time and reason and most people will not do it. You could sidestep this necessity with something like a Constitution which would avoid this necessity and eliminate mob rule but some men and women in black robes have said the U.S. Constitution is actually a collectivist document. So, now it necessitates reasoning with people who are promised a check now or some vague libertarian argument about the future benefits and prosperity of liberty and self determination.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:20 | 3112100 toomanyfakecons...
toomanyfakeconservatives's picture

The patriots are still sitting on the fence. They are many in number. We have thousands of men and women in uniform who are in control of some pretty serious military hardware. Millions of veterans and armed citizens are in control of far more small arms than the military is.


I don't believe the military or the people are willing to march into WWIII on the orders of the Kenyan. I don't forsee a draft, full-on war, or the dreaded "Martial Law" being declared.


Seriously folks, martial law is not "declared" by civilian authorities who are still in charge, it is *imposed* by military authorities when civilian authorities become ineffective or collapse. When I say military authorities, I mean national, state, or local (militia). In America, the civilian government can't just unleash the military on the people. If it tried to, 90% of military people would quit, go home, and join the millions of armed partriots who would appear overnight.

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 12:46 | 3112179 hyperbole2000
hyperbole2000's picture


Tue, 01/01/2013 - 15:03 | 3112481 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

That's exactly what happened in when the Soviet Union collapsed.  Enough divisions joined with Yeltsin to stalemate the state forces and the regime collapsed.  If that could occur in a state like the Soviet Union one expects even more resistence to martial law in the West.  Unfortunately, collapse of the state doesn't eliminate the corruption. 

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 15:30 | 3112548 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

The Soviet Union collapsed?

Wed, 01/02/2013 - 04:58 | 3114268 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

it's elites felt some change was necessary, yes. the changes were of course profitable for it's elites and a couple of foreign elites, too

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 20:54 | 3113297 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Toomany, I honestly believe this may be our only hope and Obama's fascist brethren's mistake. He has not won the military. Look how Hilter use the youth (HJ) and the SA to further his power. Youth were suffering (as they are maybe in a lesser way today) and Hitler was there to offer hope against bleak futures. They were willing accomplices in his atrocities. I don't know many people in the military but the few friends I do have despise the man. I can't see them mowing down civilians. I cant recall any moment in history where a dictatorship occurred without the backing of the military. Perhaps this is the reason to keep them engaged in continual foreign wars. Idle warriors at home may not be such a good thing. Rome discovered this as well.


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