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Guest Post: Is Germany Preparing For Future Capital Controls?

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Jeff Clark via Casey Research,

The best indicator of a chess player's form is his ability to sense the climax of the game.

–Boris Spassky, World Chess Champion, 1969-1972

You've likely heard that the German central bank announced it will begin withdrawing part of its massive gold holdings from the United States as well as all its holdings from France. By 2020, Bundesbank says it wants half its gold reserves stored in its own vault in Germany.

Why would it want to physically move the metal from New York? It's not as if US vaults are not secure, and since Germany already owns the gold, does it really matter where it sits?

You may recall that Hugo Chávez did the same thing in late 2011, repatriating much of his country's gold reserves from London. However, this isn't a third-world dictatorship; Germany is a major ally of the US. So what's going on?

Pawn to A3

On the surface, it may seem innocuous for Germany to move some pallets of gold closer to home. Some observers note that since Russia isn't likely to be invading Germany anytime soon – one of the original reasons Germany had for storing its gold outside the country – the move is only natural and no big deal. But Germany's gold stash represents roughly 10% of the world's gold reserves, and the cost of moving it is not trivial, so we see greater import in the move.

The Bundesbank said the purpose of the move was to "build trust and confidence domestically, and the ability to exchange gold for foreign currencies at gold-trading centers abroad within a short space of time." It's just satisfying the worries of the commoners, in the mainstream view, as well as giving themselves the ability to complete transactions faster. As evidence that it's nothing more than this, Bundesbank points out that half of Germany's gold will remain in New York and London (the US portion of reserves will only be reduced from 45% to 37%).

Sounds reasonable. But these economists remind me of the analysts who every year claim the price of gold will fall – they can't see the bigger implications and frequently miss the forest for the trees.

Check

What your friendly government economist doesn't reveal and the mainstream journalist doesn't report (or doesn't understand) is that in the event of a US bankruptcy, euro implosion, or similar financial catastrophe, access to gold would almost certainly be limited. If Germany were to actually need its gold, regardless of the reason, any request for transfer or sale would be… difficult. There would be, at the very least, delays. At worst such requests could be denied, depending on the circumstances at the time. That's not just bad – it defeats the purpose of owning gold.

But this still doesn't capture the greater significance of this action. First, it reinforces the growing recognition that gold is money. Physical bullion isn't just a commodity, a day-trading vehicle, or even an investment. It's a store of value, a physical hedge against monetary dislocations. In the ultimate extreme, it's something you can use to pay for goods or services when all other means fail. It is precisely those who don't recognize this historical fact who stand to lose the most in an adverse monetary event. (Hello, government economist.)

Second, here's the quote that reveals the ultimate, backstop reason for the move: Bundesbank stated it is a "pre-emptive" measure "in case of a currency crisis."

Germany's central bank thinks a currency crisis is really possible. That's a very sobering fact.

We agree, of course: history is very clear on this. No fiat currency has lasted forever. Eventually they all fail. Whether the dollar goes to zero or merely becomes a second-class currency in the global arena, the root cause for failure is universal and inevitable: continual and perpetual dilution of the currency.

Some level of currency crisis is inescapable at this point because absolutely nothing has changed with worldwide debt levels, deficit spending, and currency printing, except that they all continue to increase. While many economists and politicians claim these actions are necessary and are leading us to recovery, it's clear we have yet to experience the fallout from spending more than we have and printing the difference. There will be serious and painful consequences, sooner or later of an inflationary nature, and the average person's standard of living will be greatly reduced.

And now there are rumblings that the Netherlands and Azerbaijan may move their gold back home. If this trend gathers steam, we could easily see a "gold run" in the same manner history has seen bank runs. Add in high inflation or a major currency event and a very ugly vicious cycle could ignite.

Checkmate

If other countries follow Germany's path or the mistrust between central bankers grows, the next logical step would be to clamp down on gold exports. It would be the beginning of the kind of stringent capital controls Doug Casey and a few others have warned about for years. Think about it: is it really so far-fetched to think politicians wouldn't somehow restrict the movement of gold if their currencies and/or economies were failing?

Remember, India keeps tinkering with ideas like this already.

What this means for you and me is that moving gold outside your country – especially if you're a US citizen – could be banned. Fuel would be added to the fire by blaming gold for the dollar's ongoing weakness. Don't think you need to store gold outside your country? The metal you attempt to buy, sell, or trade within your borders could be severely regulated, taxed, tracked, or even frozen in such a crisis environment. You'd have easier access to foreign-held bullion, depending on the country and the specific events.

None of this would take place in a vacuum. Transferring dollars internationally would certainly be tightly restricted as well. Moving almost any asset across borders could be declared illegal. Even your movement outside your country could come under increased scrutiny and restriction.

The hint that all this is about to take place would be when politicians publicly declare they would do no such a thing. You could quite literally have 24 hours to make a move. If your resources were not already in place, even the most nimble of us would have a very hard time making arrangements.

Once the door is closed, attempting to move restricted assets across international borders would come with serious penalties, almost certainly including jail time. In such a tense atmosphere, you could easily be labeled an enemy of the state just for trying to remove yourself from harm's way.

The message is clear: storing some gold outside your country of residence is critical at this point, and the window of time for doing so is getting smaller. Don't just hope for the best; do something about it while you still can. The minor effort made now could pay major dividends in the future. Besides, you won't be any worse off for having some precious metals stored elsewhere.

The best chess players in the world aren't that way because they can see the next move. They're champions because they can see the next 14 moves.

You only have to see the government's next two moves to "win" this game. I suggest learning what countermoves you can take now are, before your government declares checkmate.

 

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Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:31 | 3204843 ACP
ACP's picture

Move faster, Germany...

...if you want to keep your 99 Luft-goldbars.

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:49 | 3204914 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

I don't put anything past desperate governments when things start going south fast.

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 23:17 | 3204933 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture

Physical possession may be 9/10th of the law, but it is a full 10/10ths of the value.

Leave banks out of the value preservation equation entirely and don't forget heavy-handed countries can control the movement of capital AND of persons.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:08 | 3205114 Thomas
Thomas's picture

I gotta confess that having gold outside the country feels about as uncomfortable as any of the choices. I want it within reach.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:20 | 3205129 knukles
knukles's picture

Methinks planning for anything more than knowing where the sausages are and what's in them to be Bismarkain about it, gives far too much credit (lol) to even the methodical Germans, especially when viewed in light of taking a hard look at the lunatic fringe they're in bed with in hte EU, the aggregate policies of global central banks, the desire of the EU to milk Germany for every last pfennig, geopolitical risk, tyranny of the banksters and general deterioration of trust in global institutions especially when headed by the Beavis' and Buttheads of the world....

I'd simply want my marbles back in my cigar box, too.

Forsooth, some worries are compounded in the wee hours of the morning when the walls one's mind close in way too tight...
Breathe deeply.
Empires decline, deteriorate and crumble slowly.

Any casual observer of the human condition these days would applaud having your gold at home in your vault, outside the reach and excuses of others.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 07:45 | 3205552 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

Crap.....looks like I'm gonna have to sew my stawks into my clothes lining if I'm going to get out.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 02:17 | 3205320 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

I agree Thomas. It could disappear outside of country far too easily. If they put capital controls on or tax the shit out of gold and it's useless you aren't any worse than the neighbor who doesn't have any. You can bury it and give it to your kids or grandkids in the event it can come out of hiding sometime in the future.

If I owned any and they tried to outright confiscate it, I would dump it into the deepest lake I could find before I'd give it to them. There wouldn't be a boating accident it would just get dumped overboard. If I can't keep what's mine, neither can they.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 05:17 | 3205449 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

it does seem ironic that the lesson drawn by germany's repatriation of its gold is to put some of one's own gold outside one's country.  but we're talking diversification of risk apparently.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 07:46 | 3205555 youngman
youngman's picture

The countries could also sign a treaty or something that they all WORK TOGETHER to stop the unlawful movement of an old relic....I have some In Canada..who knows.....

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 02:38 | 3205346 Obama4Ever
Obama4Ever's picture

Peter Schiff was constantly pushing for clients to hold gold at the Perth Mint. Perth is right there within shelling range of the ocean, which is entirely accessable by the US Navy. A single executive order and within a matter of days I could have the entire hoard of the Perth Mint loaded onto US carriers. National interest, don't ya know.

Any concentration of gold can be easily targeted. Countries can nationalize gold held by foreigners. Seems to me only a real jackass would trust the safety of international borders or even the continuation of nation states. See how easily we got Switzerland to roll over?

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 09:38 | 3205796 trav777
trav777's picture

dude...if you're seriously suggesting at some point we are going to invade fucking AUSTRALIA to steal their gold by executive order, then...capital controls and whatnot are some of your smaller concerns

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 09:09 | 3205710 Shocker
Shocker's picture

You would think so

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 02:51 | 3205359 From Germany Wi...
From Germany With Love's picture

It's not called Lufthansa for nothing, I suppose.

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:20 | 3204844 ReptilianSlaveMaster
ReptilianSlaveMaster's picture

was just watching the daily show with jon stewart and realized that Obama is the good black guy being unfairly treated by southern hick states and their republican slave owners who are bummedout over the civil war.. the most important issues we are facing at the moment is gay marriage and abortions.. all this economic hubbaloo will have to wait until we save the gays

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:22 | 3204853 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

jon stewart is a large turd stain

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:45 | 3204905 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Obama is gettin' off easy... I mean ~ it's not everyday that Notre Dame linebackers & their gay 'sexting' lovers walk into your life & spill their beans on the Dr. Phil show to get everyone's mind off what a shitty President you are...

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:49 | 3205202 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

His mother still calls him Jonathan Stuart Leibowitz.

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:37 | 3204877 ArgentoFisico
ArgentoFisico's picture

same story in Italy

arms of mass distraction

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 23:14 | 3204982 Race Car Driver
Race Car Driver's picture

> was just watching the ...

 

I junked ya for watching the TeeVee. How passe.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 03:15 | 3205366 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Yes, and electric vehicles that burn a lot of coal-fired electricity;, and animal rights, because it is so important that the little kitty cats and puppy's eat and have chew toys made in China - to hell with those little humans.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:53 | 3205669 Karlus
Karlus's picture

Sorry, i think the priority is to secure millions of new Dem voters called DREAMers and various undocumented workers.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 09:41 | 3205813 trav777
trav777's picture

yes, but don't forget racism; it's more important than ANYTHING.

Diversity = strength

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 05:38 | 3205465 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

"Professor, what's another name for a Pirate's Treasure?"

LOL

Beastie Boys dittos.

"Ch-Check it Out"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYpzWRk7E9I

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:18 | 3204849 bugs_
bugs_'s picture

ve have vays of controlink capitals

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:20 | 3204851 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

 "The best chess players in the world aren't that way because they can see the next move. They're champions because they can see the next 14 moves"

~~~

I'd say quite a few have trouble with the LAST 14 moves...

How about a nice game of Tic Tac Toe or GlobalThermoNuclearWar?

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:46 | 3204909 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

I can sometimes see 1 move ahead, but often not that many.

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:24 | 3204858 Walt D.
Walt D.'s picture

When Hitler did this, people were still able to move their valuables to Switzerland, and the Swiiss banks and government maintained secrecy. This is not going to happen this time around. 

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:24 | 3205142 knukles
knukles's picture

They maintained posession for themselves, as well.
Jesus.....

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:27 | 3204861 max2205
max2205's picture

Out by the shed...

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 01:33 | 3205267 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

it's inside the wood chipper..

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:29 | 3204863 Pareto
Pareto's picture

No way could I be pursuaded to move PMs outside the country, or, away from my grubby little hands, because this is how it would likely go:

"Hey man, could you look after this for me, I'm kinda freaked about whats going on with my government and such?" says friend, "ummmmmm sssssssuuurrreeeeeee, what do you want me to do with it?"  I don't know, just keep it in a safe place for me, I'll pay you $1,000 for your troubles."  says friend, "okay."

6 months later

"dude, its all good, i'm going to move to your country,.....say.....I hope you stored my PMs in a nice safe place!"  says friend, "ohhhh ummmm, yeah about your PMs......yeah, you know what I thought I put them in a safe place, and you know I went to check on them the other day, and poof, they've vanished!"

"all of it?"

"yep, every round, I dunno man, they're just gone.  I feel really bad about this."

says friend, "by the way............you owe me $1,000."

Even if it was a recognized institution!  No way.  Nope.  Na uh

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:47 | 3204908 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

Exactly. In some cases people might well be prudent to diversify their gold holding locations, but one of the main reasons for having phyzz is that you can carry all that value in a grab n go moment whereas you can't carry land. Thus if you store it somewhere else or abroad for that matter, the time you'd imagine needing it perhaps to swap for food/essentials, is exactly when the infrastructure/communications will be gone. 

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 06:36 | 3205491 Acet
Acet's picture

You store some of your PMs abroad, you don't store all of them abroad. You keep with you some as a reliable and widelly recognized store of value for quick and easy access when inferior stores of value stop working and you still need to pay for things like food and you keep some away for long-term safekeeping of part of your wealth and as insurance against sudden economic dictatorship in your own country.

Or in other words: "Don't put all your eggs in one basket"

 

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 01:15 | 3205242 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

Other countries have lakes, too.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 06:46 | 3205498 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

And lots of gardens .allotments,forests etc etc.

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:33 | 3204865 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

I understand the thinking behind moving some Gold overseas and away from the heavy hand of Uncle Sam. But what makes it any safer in another country? Seems to me that Gold stored over there (wherever "there" is) and held by (from their perspective) "foreigners" would be much easier to take than the Gold owned by the local citizens of that country.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Anyone have a response?

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:38 | 3204880 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

What's to stop the same villains who imposed capital controls from ushering in people controls. Or does everyone think "they" haven't already thought about that................?

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 23:50 | 3205068 jtrader82
jtrader82's picture

Gun nuts.  Our only hope.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 05:43 | 3205468 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Gun nuts. Our only hope.

Gun smarts.Our only hope

There corrected it for ya.

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:37 | 3204882 jimmytorpedo
jimmytorpedo's picture

I volunteer to hide it from you,..err for you I mean.

 

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:42 | 3204893 akak
akak's picture

I could perhaps see the logic of holding gold in, say, the privacy-respecting Switzerland of the 1960s if one were living in, say, Austria (threat of Soviet invasion) or Argentina (ongoing threat of currency debasement and gold illegalization) or the USA (effectively illegal to own gold) in the same period, but with today's "harmonization" of increasingly draconian tax and financial laws around the world (refusal to go along automatically makes one a "rogue state"), and particularly with the long and strong arm of the US Internal Revenue Service essentially making the entire world an IRS prison for US citizens, I must admit I fail to see many, if any, advantages in holding gold overseas in this increasingly unfree and ubiquitously surveilled day and age.

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 23:38 | 3205041 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

i agree. we are ALL living in fear of our "Federal Governments" as it relates to our monies now. I did like the title...but was very disappointed in the article. In other words "if there is a fear in Germany that suddenly the euro will collapse" (as it did when it was first launched...it didn't really take off until the US was attacked on 9/11--how interesting--failed launch of the euro that was created in New York City suddenly is saved by an attack on New York City) then repatriating the gold does sound like a "vote of confidence" to me...and indeed i would think US banks would welcome the move. DB has just reported a MASSIVE loss...the first of many i think...and thyssen/krupp is now selling a massive steel mill in Alabama that they put 25 billion in for a few billion bucks. these are both very big deals. i think the overshoot of the commodity bubble has been EPIC this go around...i don't know what the world was thinking when the USA took out Saddam Hussein but clearly "it wasn't economics." with the US housing market bust for at least another decade (though still not as bad as Europe's) i really fail to see the pricing power outside of a very few commodities (lumber. KILN dried lumber. that's about it.) no...capital controls would not surprise me if the euro tanks and it looks like a wave of bank failures is about to get underway over there. i think the verdict of 2008 is now official...that would be DEFLATION and a "Japanese scenario writ large" save for the United States (MAYBE) due to "whatever the hell the CIA is up to." and i REALLY don't want to know the answer to that. I REALLY don't.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 01:33 | 3205268 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

There is evidence that the CIA keeps its very large stash of gold in Kloten.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 21:24 | 3208070 Enslavethechild...
EnslavethechildrenforBen's picture

Switzerland... nice hookers there...

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 23:49 | 3205064 jtrader82
jtrader82's picture

I'd suggest staging some Craigslist sales long ahead of time and keeping the email records from the "sales" so that you can back up the "fact" that you don't have any precious metals.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 05:31 | 3205458 August
August's picture

"I'd suggest staging some Craigslist sales long ahead of time..."

This is a good idea, I think, but more so for select firearms.  To be convincing, and IRS-compliant, "selling" of PMs really should be accompanied by reporting of the capital gain, and paying tax on the "sale".

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:28 | 3205608 Silverhog
Silverhog's picture

If the government decided to go as far as to confiscate privately held Gold, then what is to prevent them from taking your home, bank accounts or any other valuable possessions as well? It's a very slippery slope. How many years has the US Mint been selling Gold & Silver coins plus all the pre 1964 coinage still floating around. There is loads of this stuff scattered all over the country. It would be easier to just round up everybody and put them into camps with just a pair of pajamas. And before any of this happens, they need to go after your guns. Good luck with that.  

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:36 | 3205627 BeerBrewer09
BeerBrewer09's picture

You nailed it.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:56 | 3205682 Karlus
Karlus's picture

Last time I checked, property tax indicates you never own your home, but are a perpetual renter from Uncle Sam

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 23:57 | 3205088 Tinky
Tinky's picture

While much is (reasonably) made of the potential folly of holding PMs within the banking system, and this applies to all banks around the world, those who argue that there are benefits to using non-bank facilities in other countries may well be giving good advice.

Akak, for example, responds to your question by lamenting recent changes in the world, and suggests that Switzerland is no longer a safe country within which to hold assets. But what has changed in Switzerland are the banking laws, as the U.S. has extraordinary power over foreign banks and threatened to freeze non-compliant banks out of the system.

There is, to my knowledge, no example of a private company in Switzerland (or Singapore, Hong Kong, etc.) having been coerced by the American government to release information about, let alone the assets of a foreign national. I am sympathetic to the cynical view that they would simply need to pull the "terrorist" card in order to gain compliance, but let's set that aside for the moment (in part because they could not make such claims en masse).

Were a private Swiss company to receive such a request (or demand), it would deny it, and appeal to the Swiss government. For obvious reasons, if private companies were to roll over and cooperate with a foreign government, it would literally be suicide. Private companies which buy, sell, and/or house PMs in Switzerland could no exist if there were the slightest hint that those assets could be seized by foreign governments. And such businesses are, of course, a rather large part of the Swiss economy.

I would argue that while PMs are never 100% safe, irrespective of where they are stored, if the U.S. government were to go down the road of actually attempting to seize PMs from its citizens (highly unlikely, in my view), the very last place that they would attempt to do so would be in foreign countries. It would be impossible for them to do so without the compliance of the States themselves, and again, whether Switzerland, Singapore or Hong Kong, such compliance would lead to the death of extremely important industries in those respective countries.

If things were to get really bad in the U.S. (e.g. harsh capital controls, etc.), having the ability to access PMs in another jurisdiction might well prove to be extremely valuable. There is no way that the U.S. government could instantly access or freeze such accounts, so there would minimally be a period of time during which those controlling such accounts could either sell, ship, or physically collect their metals.

As powerful as the U.S. military remains, the ability of the Government to coerce foreign countries to do its bidding is waning rapidly, and I do not envision wealthy, independent countries whose economies are largely reliant on financial services, rolling over in order to allow private companies (including vaults) to be raided by any foreign government.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:22 | 3205139 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

But my question was what is stopping the foreign country from taking the Gold you stored over there, not if the US could seize your Gold from the foreign country.

In the event of global currency wars or just plain failure it is easier to justify taking foreigners Gold than that countries citizens Gold be it the US, switzerland, Great Britain and so on.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:30 | 3205150 knukles
knukles's picture

The answer, to answer your question, is that the risks you've pointed out Cannot Be Ameliorated and in fact, to have anything overseas layers on additional specific foreign country as well as domestic risk. 

Simple as an aneurism.

The foreigners take your stuff, Uncle Sam can order it back with risk of forfeiture if non complaint, send you to jail...
And that the response is I'll just not tell anybody, so just not tell anybody and keep it in your wife's lingerie drawer of backyard.... whatever....

Jesus....

Where do people come up with these permanent complex solutions to simple temporary problems?

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 01:13 | 3205210 Tinky
Tinky's picture

"...to have anything overseas layers on additional specific foreign country as well as domestic risk"

That is, to put it mildly, grossly simplistic.

Do you somehow imagine that everything will fall apart simultaneously, and with no warning, and that all sovereign nations will immediately freeze and/or seize the assets of foreign nationals? That sounds rather fanciful to me.

It is, in my view, far more likely that (to stick to the theme of this sub-thread) the U.S. would impose strict capital controls well before any such controls were adopted in Switzerland, Singapore or Hong Kong. The likelihood of those disparate governments acting in unison with the U.S. is roughly nil, especially given the importance of the financial services industries to all of them

Furthermore, what you characterize as an additional layer of risk could easily turn out to be a reduction of (all eggs in one basket) risk, instead.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 01:26 | 3205253 Tinky
Tinky's picture

CD –

Your question is, of course, only useful within the context of an extreme breakdown in the world order. Not that it cannot happen, but I want to be clear about the necessary backdrop.

My view, again, is that the very countries that are often talked about as relative safe havens for capital (and PMs) are viewed that way for good reason. Even under a relatively dark scenario, the governments of those countries would do everything in their power to bolster their good reputations. If they begin to confiscate the assets of foreign nationals, they will immediately forfeit the very foundations of their stable and successful societies. It would be a form of national suicide, and I don't see it happening.

Countries like the U.S. and the UK are very different, of course.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:34 | 3205164 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

...There is, to my knowledge, no example of a private company in Switzerland (or Singapore, Hong Kong, etc.) having been coerced by the American government to release information about, let alone the assets of a foreign national...Were a private Swiss company to receive such a request (or demand), it would deny it, and appeal to the Swiss government...

Good of you to drop in from your amazing time-travelling tour - judging from your articulate useage of modern English, you may be a well-educated denizen of the early to middle C20th, perhaps an inventor or Jules Verne-like writer, caught up in an experimental time machine project gone badly wrong...well, hope it all works out for you!

Meanwhiles...

Jailed UBS Employee Gets $104 Million From IRS For Exposing Swiss Bank Account Holders -see ZH article on same from 9\11\2012

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123499439400216483.html

http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/19/ubs-swiss-banking-markets-equities-tax-...

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 01:50 | 3205200 Tinky
Tinky's picture

For future reference, sarcasm tends to be most effective when the user of it has actually read and understood what was written by the target.

I made it quite clear that the banking sector was a separate (and obviously much more dangerous) issue. If you can produce an example of a non-banking entity that rolled over to such a request with the compliance of the host governement, feel free to enlighten us.

It's also worth noting that what happened with the Swiss banking industry was that the IRS compelled the banks to provide information relating to possible or probable tax evasion. No one who had money in Swiss bank accounts that was legitimate was harmed (and no, I'm not siding with the gubbermint).

I'm well aware of the possibility that a desperate U.S. government could theoretically use a similar tactic in an effort to seize gold, but:

a) they do not have the same power over private, foreign, non-bank entities

b) any claim en masse of tax evasion would be viewed with great suspicion by foreign governments

c) allowing the U.S. to seize legitimate assets would be a disaster for the host countries

d) it would be far more efficient and effective to raise taxes on the sale of PMs than to attemp confiscation

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 02:55 | 3205349 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

'

for future reference....hahaha!...touche!

clearly I must stand aside to your mastery of travel into future times! When apparently, the banking sector will be fully nationalized, and thereore no longer consist of private, for profit entities!???!??

Or perhaps, in your all-seeing wisdom, you are making some distinction between private banks and companies working in the finacial sector as managers of private assets? As if they can somehow escape the iron hand? I know for a fact that GOLDMONEY has already been forced to truncate it's client offerings due to pressure from governments, and the Dutch in particular have made their operating there problematic. If that's no 'private company' you must make clear just what arcane distinction you are on about!

Ok, sahib, though sadly limited in my time horizon, compared to thyself, I will cite the case of  WEGELIN. shutting down after some 250 years as a Swiss PRIVATE BANK due to indictment by DOJ on charges of aiding US tax evaders -after a messy campaign to get them to cough up names.

 'The timing of Wegelins indictment dovetails with the US launch of an amnesty program designed to induce taxpayers into coming clean on hidden assets' sayeth the Reuters article detailing the campaign to seek out and identify all foreign held assets of FEMAVILLE inductees...how you can manage to avoid seeing the connection between that and the obligatory reportage and potential sequestering of their gold holdings in any Swiss entity is a mystery...but, since you do not seem up for reading links, I will stop providing them...and simply let you travel through time and space to the event itself!

Allowing me to say in closing, that your a) b) and c) are, each in their own, examples of specious or missing logic which, when combined with the Caseyites' fast and loose approach to dealing in facts, causes me to believe that some people here think it's some kind of game, this issue of giving unfounded advice to others, about their savings...we're dealing with peoples' survival stakes here, and it behooves the commentor to exericise the care commensurate to the gravity of the subject here.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 03:00 | 3205364 Tinky
Tinky's picture

What part of the word "bank" do you not understand? I am not referring to banks of any kind. This was the very first sentence of my original post, a sentence which was, for some reason, apparently shielded from your view as you scrambled to respond:

"While much is (reasonably) made of the potential folly of holding PMs within the banking system, and this applies to all banks around the world, those who argue that there are benefits to using non-bank facilities in other countries may well be giving good advice."

If that fundamental point is still unclear, then I urge you to get lost.

If, on the other hand, you have finally digested the fact that I am not referring to banks, then let's continue with the discussion. Let's take Via Mat, to use one, prominent example. They are not a bank, and yet enormous amounts of PMs (and other valuables) are stored in their facilities. Do you somehow imagine that they will allow foreign governments to seize private assets from their vaults? Do you imagine that the governments that preside over the jurisdictions in which they operate would allow that to happen? If so, then you are dreaming, and your dreams are very dark.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 05:38 | 3205463 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

What part of the name GOLDMONEY do you not comprehend amigo?

I have now twice referenced in this very thread(and once before even encountering your amazing adventure here on your new temporary home -Earth-)to a [private!!!]company with vaults(VIAMAT in point of fact!!!)in Switzerland\Sinagpore\HongKong - the very jurisdications which you have absurdly challenged me to find examples contradicting your equally absurd thesis- which has encountered problems from the 'authorities' over it's management of customer bullion accounts...AND HAS HAD TO SHUT DOWN PARTS OF ITS SERVICES in order to escape total closure a la Wegelin!....or(as in the case with Holland)had to deny any and all service to certain passport holders....

what part of the phrase MISSION CREEP do you no comprende tio? Do the words full spectrum dominance not appear in your "Short English Phrasebook for Space and Time Travellers"????

Were you not in line at SpaceStation Customs and Excise when they handed out the free copies of "Dummies Guide to the Psychology of Human Governmental Structures," did you miss the boat when the donut seller was offering a free handout with every cruller - the Drooler's Guide to Mammalian Behaviour>>>?????

Do you somehow imagine that they will allow foreign governments to seize private assets from their vaults? Do you imagine that the governments that preside over the jurisdictions in which they operate would allow that to happen?

Indeed, surely I must be dreaming - that anything so witless, so lacking in practical knowledge of the world we live in could be passed off as informed commentary, and by one so incredulously immune to the irony of ignorance posed as information in such overbearing fashion, is beyond what I could imagine in waking life!

But I do welcome your contributions here - your misplaced arrogance boldly goes far beyond what mere earthlings can muster!

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 06:22 | 3205485 Tinky
Tinky's picture

I asked quite clearly for examples of private, non-bank companies that have given up customer accounts/assets to foreign governments, and you have provided exactly zero.

Goldmoney's issue is only tangentially relevant, and they are based in Jersey, rather than any of the countries that are being discussed. Shutting down part of its services (e.g. no longer catering to clients from certain countries, etc.) is a long way from turning over legally obtained, private assets. No matter what you may believe, the slope isn't so slippery that owners of such assets wouldn't have sufficient time to ship, sell, or collect them before such radical measures were put into place.

If you are arguing that the U.S. will make the holding or sale of gold illegal (a highly dubious premise), and that under those circumstances it will be able to compell foreign companies and governments to roll over and freeze or disgorge private assets, that is a different discussion. We are nowhere near that point, in any case.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 06:52 | 3205504 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Good... now that you've calmed down a bit from your previously worked up state, we can pursue your thesis, and the suppositions which back it, a little more...

and please do note that they are mere suppositions you use to support your case. You want us to believe that you have some kind of direct line on what governments [can]will and [cannot]will not do, as if to say you are looking down upon our humble human world from a higher plane and\or other spatial-temporal viewpoint - I think I have addressed that howler sufficiently that we can move on to the crux of your viewpoint...

that force majeure, and literally dozens of other Corzine-MFG-style dirty deals are not in the toolbox of state-capitalist criminal cartels, and that customers\bagholders stand in no danger of pre-emptive grabs for their stored wealth...is that you Eric Holder??????????????

That such a viewpoint flies in the face of recent events, and the simple empirical evidence available to even the most casual follower of them is not the biggest problem with your presentation....

the biggest problem you have is that you don't even understand the subject, let alone the absurdity of your pontificating on it in such heavyhanded fashion. One example will serve to drive that point home, at least for the gallery, if you yourself are a lost cause here...

the example you have mentioned, VIAMAT, is a storage company...they store bullion on behalf of companies such as GOLDMONEY, my example, who in turn manage the allocated bullion of retail customers. GOLDMONEY being intimidated, threatened or shut down in any of the jurisdictions is very much the essence of the discussion here - no allocated bullion manager, no safe offshore gold account!!!!!!!!!!! That is part of the action plan of the USA and complicit mafia regimes and that is what I am alerting potential customers\victims to...

whereas you seem to be dead set against that information(and what I have put forth in this discussion are facts, not suppositions)being spilled to them...

now tell us, Space Cowboy....who's yur daddy?

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:20 | 3205546 Tinky
Tinky's picture

First, if there were some kind of special award for irony, you'd be a shoo-in to win it. Anyone juxtaposing our respective posts would laugh his or her ass off at your claim that I was the one who was "worked up", and then they'd keep right on laughing as you call me arrogant while at the same time exclaiming "...the biggest problem you have is that you don't even understand the subject, let alone the absurdity of your pontificating...", "...it behooves the commentor to exericise the care commensurate to the gravity of the subject here", and "who's yur daddy?".

Now, as to the substance of the matter, I have clearly laid out the foundations for my opinions. You are certainly free to contest my opinions, but your objections thus far have been diffuse, off-topic and weak.

Your main argument is apparently based on your broad view that "governments" are intrinsically evil, and that they can and will conspire to steal the wealth of their citizens. You make dubious leaps such as Corzine to PM confiscation, and blithely ignore the complex political realities involved in the U.S. actually attempting to confiscate legal, privately held assets in foreign countries. Your position also presupposes that the U.S. government is likely to confiscate PMs, when in fact, it would be far more efficient, and far less complicated for it to levy high taxes on their sale.

Goldmoney being threatened and intimidated is, as I've pointed out previously, miles apart from actual confiscation, which is the theme of this sub-thread. Were any PMs stored by Goldmoney confiscated? No. Did they disgorge cash accounts to foreign governments? No. Have any non-bank entities based in Switzerland, Hong Kong or Singapore been intimidated and forced to give up customer assets? No.

Be sure to check back in when you can actually provide directly relevant information that demonstrates that holding legally obtained PMs in non-bank accounts in those countries is dangerous.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:54 | 3205670 Eally Ucked
Eally Ucked's picture

The main point of your discussion is not if confiscation of gold already happened but if it is possible in the future. If somebody asked question about confidentiality of Swiss bank accounts 5 or 10 years ago the answer would've been - it's 100% confidential and there is no way that those informations would be provided to any governments. 

What would have happend if some government started criminal proceedings for eg. money laundering against VIAMAT? What info would they get and what would happen to "proceeds of criminal activity"?

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 10:55 | 3206078 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Since the Guest from Another Planet is never going to grasp this, I'll put the point forward here, in hopes that somebody does.

Viamat is a storage facility...you rent cold stores for apples, freezers for meat, lockers for personal effects, Viamat for gold bullion. In this case, companies with major tonnage of bullion held in trust for customers rent storage from Viamat in places like Switzerland, Singapore and Hong Kong.

Anybody wishing to interfere with that chain of business is going to serve notice on\raid the offices of\acquire a phony search warrant upon....wait for it...

the leasee - GOLDMONEY, BULLION VAULT, etc. etc.

As has been proven by recent events, there are dozens of ways to get at customers assets when kleptocraptic authorities and\or their partners in crime want them....that the USA governments offshore efforts in "tax recovery" have been a prelude to the identification of all citizen\victims' assets and potential seizure of same is a no-brainer for anybody with two eyes and a nose...

but the more I read Mr Tinky's fantasy narrative, the less I can be sure even those basic attributes belong to our guest, who appears to come from a planet where benevolent higher-ups look down upon their charges with compassion and concern for the wellbeing of all! Most definitely sci-fi stuff!

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 17:46 | 3207602 Tinky
Tinky's picture

Yes, we all get it. The sky is falling, and only those with PMs buried on their property who are well-armed are poised to survive.

Good luck with that.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 17:43 | 3207591 Tinky
Tinky's picture

The answer to your question is that nobody knows at this point. But if you believe that the U.S. government is going to use such an approach, en masse, in order to confiscate gold, then I would argue that you are engaging in dark fantasies. Again, the Government would have a far easier and more efficient time levying high taxes on the sale of gold, then engaging in the sort of convoluted confiscation scheme that you imagine.

The elephant in the room regarding the basis of your first point is that not a single innocent American citizen was harmed by the end of secret Swiss bank accounts. Only those seeking to evade taxes, or laundering money, etc., were harmed. Yes, I agree that there are some slippery slope aspects to the issue, and I am certainly against Big Brother encroachments, but no one has presented a shred of evidence that an American citizen who has acquired, or does acquire PMs legally, and complies with the tax code, might be at risk by storing such metals abroad in through/with non-bank entities.

The whole premise of the-sky-is-falling crowd is that the gubbermint is likely to become so desperate that it will either attempt to confiscate PMs, or make them illegal to own. And while I believe that to be very unlikely, for a variety of reasons, even if it were to actually take place, it won't happen without implicit warning. In other words, anyone paying attention will either be able to sell (likely at a big profit), ship or retrieve their metals before such a radical step is taken.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 06:59 | 3205509 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Exactly so,a point people keep missing is the IRS was cracking down on Americans using their

natiomality to evade paying income taxes anywhere.

As long as as income taxes(if appros) was paid somewhere.and again on any

interest income(sweet memories).then the IRS doesn't give a rats ass.

Double taxation agreements exist between the US, and most countries.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 10:40 | 3206027 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

"such compliance would lead to the death of extremely important industries in those respective countries."

They swallowed the poison pill on their banks already !

And banks are kind of treated lightly, because they are
all inter-dependent and know each other.

Private company ? "They have child porn on their servers
and drugs in those safe-deposit boxes ! Call Interpol,"
early morning raid in 1, 2 , 3...

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 02:26 | 3205335 20834A
20834A's picture

I think if this scenario played out, there would be a massive black market that would put narco-traffickers in the shade. Good luck to to the gov't trying to shut that down. When you're desperate you don't worry too much if something is "legal".

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:51 | 3205665 nmewn
nmewn's picture

CD raises a good question..."But what makes it any safer in another country?"

It wouldn't be.

Unless one is part of the 0.01% where the potental LOSS of this portion would not have a devasting effect on your wealth.

For us, (the commoner) the risk/reward is too high. Again, if you don't possess it, you don't own it. The trust in any government(s) to do the right thing on a range of issues (including this topic) has completely evaporated.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 11:04 | 3206120 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

You are correct.

The niceties of legal arguments are academic because those legalities are gossamer strands.

Fucks sakes people...Wake up! They can call you a terrorist and blow your head off with a stroke of a pen and not see a day in court. It's an Exec. order NDAA-World now.

You don't hold it, you don't own it. Simple as that.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 10:14 | 3205936 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

Try going to Ecuador, buy property and start messing with
drilling equipment to get to a save storage depth beyond detection. None of your new neighbors will notice , sure !

By the time the newly formed communist bolivarian south american union collapses and gringos are allowed to visit
again, (think eastern Germans only now
allowed to buy back property in their ancestral land administrated by Poland), you receive your FEMA camp survivor pension and are wheelchair bound.

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:31 | 3204867 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

So that's why all the Central Banks are accumulating gold....now I understand....before the mad rush into the yellow metal.

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:52 | 3204921 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

Germany is just trying to get its gold far away from jon corzine and his bunch.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 02:39 | 3205347 Ropingdown
Ropingdown's picture

Germany's recall of US-stored gold is a sham, window dressing.  The real goal is to get their gold out of France.  The motivation is obvious.  They've been screwed too many times by France in the last three years.  They don't want France able to grab the gold to pay phonied-up Germany liabilities for Euro debt.  If Germany is forced to break from the Euro the UK isn't a problem, but France definitely is.  Additionally, at the moment that occurs Germany will need flexible foreign reserves fast, with the target trade uncertain at the moment.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 02:50 | 3205358 From Germany Wi...
From Germany With Love's picture

Bingo.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:07 | 3205575 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Last 3 years ? Try the last 300 Years

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 22:57 | 3204937 AL_SWEARENGEN
AL_SWEARENGEN's picture

I get the idea of not keeping all your golden eggs in one basket.  But if events turn sour like this author is describing, I'd rather keep liquid assets close by and not stored in some foreign county where I don't have citizenship and who's cocksucker politicians are just as evil and greedy as they are in the US.  And who wouldn't think twice about confiscating foreign gold & silver ESPECIALLY if the treasury and fed pull the joker card and retain ownership of foreign held gold in NY and fort knox.  Dig a couple holes instead in an area that is familiar to you and 'deposit' extra gold there if you have so much.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:11 | 3205118 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

Seems like a more rational approach.   In the event of a SHTF financial mess, what keeps any foreign country from grabbing the gold on deposit in THEIR jurisdictions - no matter who the owner is?  It seems like bank secrecy is no longer withthe US putting immense pressure on any nation that might serve as a safe haven.  A US dentist looking to safeguard a few hundred thousand is screwed - though multinationals get away with billions. 

I suspect gold holdings in those nice big bank vaults (aloocated or not) will be the first thing grabbed by desperate governments if the need arises.  Property rights?  Here's your payment in full - the day before revaluation 100 times higher (there's precedent in the US - FDR).  If some of that gold is foud to be owned by 'foreigners' will a government feel compelled to pay restitution?   Feel free to take your case to court.... bwahaaaaa.....        In some countries it would not be surprising to find out that government simply confiscates PM's - for the national good.   In such locales any complaints will likely be answered with a bullet.  

Under FDR, gold in bank vaults was taken and people were asked to voluntarily exchange personal holdings BUT many did not turn in their holdings and kept them.  Today Homeland Security has the right to check on Safety Deposit Box contents so that is not a good place to keep your holdings.  If you waited 50 years or so, you could legally own your stash again.   

I can easily see governments taking possession of whatever is found in any and all bank vaults - one way out of the GLD and SLV inventory dillemma - all the bullion banks manage to avoid a full public disclosure.  Perhaps this is one reason FOR governments to take such a step - avoiding the embarassment of everyone findng out how little metal actually exists.  Would be easy to SAY you have XXXXX tons of gold - we're doing it now with Ft. Knox.  However it is really worht the effort to go after those holding a few ounces - especially if those peopel are also well armed?    More likely you'd have any 'small' transactions regulated and taxed onerously - easire than confiscation.  However it seems that black markets always find a way around such things when demand exists.   If government tries to regulate the hell out of everything - inclluding food supplies - with price copntrols, you'll have a VERY actiuve black market.

Pewrsonally, I dont' forsee a total SHTF scenarion - TPTB will do all they can to prevent such a thing.  Expect a long drawn out gradual descent into the murk of lower standards of living, endless war for resources and a gradual transition into the new Feudalism.  Glad I won't be living much longer whatever the path.

I'll let my kids know the location of the boating accident - sometime in the future they may want to go after what's on the bottom of the lake.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 06:49 | 3205500 Acet
Acet's picture

You don't keep gold abroad.

You keep stuff in a private vault (and said stuff just happens to be gold) abroad. Or you keep it with somebody you trust. Also make sure NEVER, EVER, EVER  to keep anything with a large international bank, no mater where they are based: such banks will roll-over and comply to any request from the US authorities (at least until the US implodes) to protect the profits they make in the US.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 11:14 | 3206163 Funghi
Funghi's picture

Sooo, how about Canada? CEF? GTU?

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:44 | 3205648 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

having seen the world a bit I can't ascribe to your theory that all politicians worldwide are equally evil and greedy - and in particular private gold ownership haters

some countries have a long history of hating gold in private hands

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 23:05 | 3204959 are we there yet
are we there yet's picture

If gold confiscation starts, some law will remove boating accident as an excuse for loosing gold. Never underestimate the hubris of detatched burocrats.

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 23:48 | 3205067 Northern Lights
Northern Lights's picture

That would be interesting.  I believe buying gold will eventually be heavily regulated to the point that if you decide to move it/trade it/sell it, you would immediately need to notify the government because the government will start to tax you for unrealized gains on the gold based on year-end market price per ounce.  If you hold it, you pay a tax based on how many ounces you have on Dec 31st. The whole "lost it in a boating accident" will be nullified because if you can't prove to the government to their satisfaction that it was indeed "lost", they'll state that you're lying to them and they'll continue taxing you on it indefinetly!!!!!  This will probably necessitate the need to have your bullion insured against any claims that you may have lost it.  Eventually, all this would make gold prohibitively expensive and would work as a great deterant to holding it or playing in the game.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 01:29 | 3205258 Tinky
Tinky's picture

I have yet to receive a compelling answer to this question:

Why would the very same government that is essentially owned by the financial elite choose to harshly penalize their benefactors (who own the vast majority of privately held gold)?

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 02:01 | 3205300 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Because there is no equal protection under the law (prosecutorial discretion).  The financial elite will be allowed to keep their gold.  The Boating Accident Crew will have theirs confiscated (water-boarding is not torture).  This is what happened in 1933 too, I believe.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 02:13 | 3205316 Tinky
Tinky's picture

Not compelling. I simply don't see draconian laws being enacted and the elites who own the vast bulk of the PMs being given a wink and and a nod so that they remain exempt.

It also misses the obvious point that high taxes and/or confiscation would only be worthwhile to the gubbermint if those very same elite were subject to the laws.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 02:21 | 3205324 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Elimination of habeas corpus is draconian.

The goobermint is owned by the elites.  The elites may not wish to keep the bulk of their gold locally.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 02:28 | 3205339 Tinky
Tinky's picture

"The elites may not wish to keep the bulk of their gold locally."

Ah, that dovetails nicely with the sub-thread above.

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 23:16 | 3204989 sansnobel
sansnobel's picture

It has to happen over time so nobody will see what is happening. Slight of hand from Central Banks.  They leased the shit out.  Now they have to go back on the market and buy it to settle claims.  Biggest shortsqueeze of all times coming.  If you and every Tom Dick and Harry Central Bank on the Planet can Print Jew Confetti and Buy real resources then it becomes pretty obvious why they want their "NOT MONEY" back. 

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 23:17 | 3204990 Bansters-in-my-...
Bansters-in-my- feces's picture

This "Casey Research" sounds like an enemy of the state.

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 23:24 | 3205013 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

Not the state of Uruguay -- just saying.

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 23:34 | 3205034 Braverdave
Braverdave's picture

My mom and/or oma can sew it into my clothing maybe :)

My sewing skills are fairly crude :(

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:21 | 3205137 Toronto Kid
Toronto Kid's picture

Curtain weights. You don't want your curtains flapping around do ya?

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 23:38 | 3205043 Sizzurp
Sizzurp's picture

Here is an interesting take on the German gold issue that makes some sense. http://www.professorfekete.com/articles/AEFAmericanBasesGermanyGoldBasis...

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 10:21 | 3205967 PeakOil
PeakOil's picture

Thanks, good article!

Thu, 01/31/2013 - 23:50 | 3205069 Squid-puppets a...
Squid-puppets a-go-go's picture

if anyone thinks the gold repatriation by germany isnt a big deal they have no imagination

imagine going to your automattic teller machine and punching in a withdrawal and getting a sign that says "Your withdrawal has been processed and will be delivered to your house in 2020"

This news was tantamount to America declaring that it is defaulting on its debt, period

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:04 | 3205103 BeerBrewer09
BeerBrewer09's picture

They gave themselves 7 years to make some damn fine gold plated tungsten bars. ;-P

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:35 | 3205169 knukles
knukles's picture

That's a bloody insult.
Can't eat tungsten

At least creamy chocolate filled nougat centers.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:05 | 3205105 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

...But these economists[can't see the bigger implications and frequently miss the forest for the trees]...

Right out of the gate, Clark implicates himself in the same errors he ascribes to others, and then piles on more to ice the cake. If you want to build a case for holding pm offshore, OK, go right ahead, but do it with logic and more than cherry-picked quotes and misleading factoids...

Germany's announcement re gold repatriation was pure window-dressing, designed more to serve the interests of the "Federal Reserve" than challenge it...the timelines and quantities mentioned exclude any possiibility of serious intent on Germany's part to 'prepare for a currency war'...just another 'limited hangout' of the kind which now fully replaces 'real' news stories, and Clark should be in a position to know the difference...were he a credible source of analysis rather than salesman for something called "the Casey Report."

On the topic of holding your gold\silver offshore, presumably the point of this info-mercial,

The metal you attempt to buy, sell, or trade within your borders could be severely regulated, taxed, tracked, or even frozen in such a crisis environment.

This is true enough, and deserves serious attention...much more serious than what the author follows up with:

You'd have easier access to foreign-held bullion, depending on the country and the specific events.

But that's nothing compared to the follow up howler -

Besides, you won't be any worse off for having some precious metals stored elsewhere.

and you could put all your savings on the exactor in the next race and hope to get lucky too!

Outfits like Bullion Vault\GoldMoney are great vehicles for storing pms offshore, and, next to saddlebags which you sleep and ride on 24\7, probably the best thing going for the serious candidate for financial survival...but even they can be(and have been)tampered with by governmental interference, and their utility impeded or removed. Outside of that, any attempt to keep your stash somewhere other than where you keep yourself is a recipe for big disappointment. And if you insist on keeping yourself inside of Femaville, be prepared for double trouble!

Step 1) get outta Dodge, and when you find a new nest, move your loot to an allocated storage.The  BV\GM thing will allow you to move some of your assets to an account in the new location where you can buy local physical and the requisite saddlebags and fourlegged friends to place them on.  As cattle and sheep are cheap right now, buy up stock at low low prices, and get cracking on finding that irrigable pasture land or start up the barley fodder project(25 acres worth of feed in 300sq ft of space!) Sleep under the starry sky whenever possible, make coffee in battered smoke-blackened containers, keep an eye out for rustlers(same as you would for financial hustlers!), and the other one out for like-minded drifters...with whom to form up into loose nomadic bands of free livin folk, just like our happy forebears, afore we ran into the moneychangers and wormtongues!

That's the forest and the trees, and I don't need to charge a dime for that two cents of common sense!


 

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:05 | 3205107 Fred C Dobbs
Fred C Dobbs's picture

I agree with Jeff Clark.  If gold became illegal to hold/buy/sell in the USA and doing so will put in in prison, a lot of people are going to wish their gold was stored in a foreign country.  It is easy to leave with it now.  You only need to file a US Customs form at the airport.  It is a little more difficult to find a safe place to store it but it can be done. 

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 01:25 | 3205254 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

Ah, but you get put into that "freedom database."  They know you have the gold and how much.

They could tell you to get it or you go to jail.

The only solution is to stop the tyranny altogether, not try to squeeze a few goodies between its fingers as its velvet gloved hand clenches into a fist.

Spread the word:

Debt Money Tyranny

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/4768883/debtmoneytyranny-6-1-pdf-60k?tr=77

That chart is 100% proof beyond all doubt of a conspiracy to bankrupt entire nation states.

A coworker who pretends I'm a 'conspiracy theorist" told me "I choose not to look at that chart, I don't feel good talking about those things."

That chump already looked at the chart, knew there was no answer to it, tucked his tail between his legs and decide to play some "make believe."

Another coworker who told me I was a loon for thinking the economy wasn't doing just fine was laid off at the beginning of the year.In the good ole days, we used to hire people inbetween layoffs...  no more.

Red alert, people - the government just pretends to be soft silk...  they are the noose being used by Big Finance Capital con men and women to destroy the Republic.

 

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 02:43 | 3205351 Ropingdown
Ropingdown's picture

I don't really follow why the Germans' move is about gold, per se.  It's about reserves.  They aren't taking much from the US, so that's just a head fake.  It's about getting gold out of France, period.  The motivation is obvious.  Leaving the Euro?  Don't want a desperate France claiming it in payment for baloney Germany Euro-debt liabilities.  France has been screwing Germany non-stop, building BS coalitions of peripheral Latins to gang up on Germany.  Time for Germany to get its A game together.  They'll need flexible foreign reserves instantly if they go Deutchmark or NordEuro, and there is no way to know where reserves will be needed. 

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 06:52 | 3205503 goldenbuddha454
goldenbuddha454's picture

You could have a point as the Egyptian's Morsi is in Germany right now asking for a debt-forgiveness deal from Merkel for the 100's of millions they owe Germany.  Cyprus is doing the same, but asking for new money to bail them out.  Greece is has a fulltime job trying to convince Germany to forgive their debt and then there's the ubiquitous PIIGS always feeding at the German trough.  Oink, Oink!  What's that you say Ben, there's not actually AU in the bottom of the Ny Fed, its PB?  Well no wonder its going to take 7 years to transfer!

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:31 | 3205156 nicoacademia
nicoacademia's picture

this is good. its like the little vines that leak out through the walls. just like when BNP Paribas closed those MBS/CDO funds. no one knew jackshit....

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:31 | 3205157 nicoacademia
nicoacademia's picture

this is good. its like the little vines that leak out through the walls. just like when BNP Paribas closed those MBS/CDO funds. no one knew jackshit....

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:40 | 3205178 knukles
knukles's picture

What the Fuck?

Some of you people are plum fucking crazy!

If TSHTF as some here profess to be the future, why the fuck would you want your gold somewhere offshore?
If the banks are closed, travel has ceased, the shelves are bare and people are raping pillaging and looting, what the fuck good is your gold going to do you in some cave in the Hinterlands or wherever?
If you live in Cleveland, what good'll it do you even in Arkansas for that matter?

Some people really need to Get A Grip and Serious Professional Help.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:42 | 3205185 newengland
newengland's picture

Portugal lost 7 tons of its gold when Drexel Lambert went bust. Portugal held a claim on its gold which was held 'safely' by that bank.

Where is that gold now? No one knows. Portugal is without it. Someone has it. Kind of reminds me of MFGlobal. Where is Corzine now, and where is his client's gold?

Meanwhile, the gangster bankster head of JP Morgue is said to be the next head of the U.S. Treasury. CONgress is full of willing thieves, it seems.

 

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 00:55 | 3205214 dr.charlemagne
dr.charlemagne's picture

It is very easy for an American to set up a physical precious metals account with UBS. Physical, allocated, off balance sheet, not hypothecated. Why not do what all of the elites do... keep your stuff in Switzerland. Even at the height of WWII, the elites of enemy nations rubbed elbows in Swiss vaults while they visited their stuff. Prolly wont be different this time. See ya in Switzerland!

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 01:13 | 3205239 Mark123
Mark123's picture

It was not that long ago that the UK and most of Europe had currency controls....so I would not be surprised to see them again.  The big problem would be that the banking cartel controls amost all countries so where do you hide?  Venezuela or North Korea?

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 01:20 | 3205249 gwar5
gwar5's picture

If I have a place in another country gold goes in the ground nearby some coconut tree. Never in a bank. 

 

 

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 11:30 | 3206243 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

"Coconut Tree Bank" on some sand ridge with a palm and a shack called bank with some smiling monkeys and a bad mouthed Brit for a boss never cut with me . Despite the bullet-proof legislation signed by the local chieftain...

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 01:29 | 3205257 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Once the tungsten bars are plated and all the gold has left the country the US Gov't will place capital controls on gold. We have some time.

We might have a push for solar and capital controls on silver in the name of subsidizing photovoltaics.

Nothing's safe. I'm going back to writing.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 01:49 | 3205285 pain_and_soros
pain_and_soros's picture

If Germany were getting all of its gold back from US & UK over a short time frame instead of small portion of it over 7 years, then there might be something more to it than simple message sending to the US govt/Fed (& UK & France) that they need to get their deficits & printing under control.

What better way to "enforce" some discipline, than start talking very publicly about (& moving) some of your gold out of the countries (US & UK) that are devaluing their currencies (at the expense of the Euro & German exports)?

 

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 02:53 | 3205356 AUD
AUD's picture

the root cause for failure is universal and inevitable: continual and perpetual dilution of the currency.

Bullshit. The currency was junk a long time ago. It makes no difference whether the central bank prints a lot more, or no more.

The currency has been an out & out Ponzi scheme, a colossal credit bubble, for decades. It could unravel at any time.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 03:18 | 3205368 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Well, I'll sew it into my luggage with a couple of dildos or a suitcase full of $100 dollar bills or a box of New YorK Times issues - sure to be ignored by the TSA.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 05:50 | 3205471 DosZap
DosZap's picture

If you are not shortly following your deposits outside the CONUS, then I would keep my ducks within my hands reach.

NO storage facilities are safe havens ANYMORE.

Except you and GOD know where it's stashed.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 03:52 | 3205392 FunkyOldGeezer
FunkyOldGeezer's picture

Currency controls are naturally going to be applied if and when TSHTF. I well remember not being able to go abroad with adequate funds to enjoy a holiday. It wasn't that long agao and the troubles then weren't anything like as bad as they have the potential to be, in the near future.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 04:37 | 3205426 dunce
dunce's picture

 Financial collapse is often followed by gold confiscation, but i am not sure any govt, with ample stocks of gold has ever had a financiasl collapse. Examples anyone?

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 04:52 | 3205434 Fahrenheit451
Fahrenheit451's picture

GBI now offers storage and delivery in Singpore, and it's not a FATCA required disclosure.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 06:27 | 3205487 goldenbuddha454
goldenbuddha454's picture

Of course there will be a move to control Gold, Silver.  Instead of the 'Gold Confiscation Act' they'll call it the 'Homeland Gold Trust Children's Act' as to garner trust with the public in a time of economic meltdown.  So when the politicians want to pull an unconstitutional maneuver, from this point forward they'll try to link the new 'Legislation' to women or children because how could something that has the intention of helping women or children be harmful?  Remember potus parading the kids for the AWB last week?  Additionally, Banks are already allowing for gold to be considered a tier 1 asset for collateral.  China is hoarding Gold and commodities to be able to show the rest of the world who's money really has value.  The farther we get away from the date at which the gold standard was abolished 1971?, the more worthless all currencies have become with exception of those countries like china who have stockpiled pm's for the eventual collapse.  Russia/China and China/Brazil already are dealing currency to currency avoiding the U.S. Dollar altogether.  Put a knife in it, fiat is done!

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 07:29 | 3205535 Volaille de Bresse
Volaille de Bresse's picture

Venezuela, "a third-world dictatorship"????

Ha ha 20 years from now we "rich" white people might beg for a visa given by one these South-American dictatorships!

 

Remember that in the 1920's, moving to Argentina was, for a European citizen, considered to be a blessing!

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:14 | 3205587 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Argentina was one of the top 5 economies when the Anglos ran it until the radical anarcho-leftists arrived from Europe in the 1930s.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:10 | 3205582 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Gold is important for German to retain its wealth having had its assets and patents confiscated by British, US, USSR to develop new technologies and chemical proccesses in the postwar era. The likely outcome is to prop up the Euro until France buckles then form a North European Currency Union with Russia included to provide raw material backing for the value and lock in a major market straddling Eurasia. Without an energy source like Russia any currency is going to be weak even if backed by gold because of energy deficits

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 11:49 | 3206324 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

Sandmann, Panslavic Empire is the nightmare of the anglo-west and the spectre thereoff might well had them concluding to go after Germany by all means to keep that from happening.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:14 | 3205586 El
El's picture

Please. Someone should share with me a "safe" place outside the country. There aren't any "safe" places. The best you can hope for is perhaps safer for the moment...but who can say?

It seems ludicrous to me to believe that my gold would be safer outside of my custody and control given the world environment. It isn't just the U.S. in trouble here.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:32 | 3205620 falak pema
falak pema's picture

In the meantime the Euro is going bananas! 

Euro Surging, February 1 - Business Insider

What gives? 

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:36 | 3205631 goldenbuddha454
goldenbuddha454's picture

What gives is that the EU has some actual experience with hyperinflation (Germany 1930's)  and has refused to join Japan and USA in a worldwide currency devaluation via money printing madness, however, don't count the EU out yet as there are still some PIIGS out there who would love to see a new round of QE eurostyle.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:39 | 3205635 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

you know that theory that

A) the ECB artificially pushes the EUR up and B) that the US Markets and algos wag the dog and take EURUSD strenght as "Risk Off" signal

can't subscribe to that but I have this irrational feeling that the EUR is just coming back in the range where it belongs, vs the USD

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:47 | 3205650 falak pema
falak pema's picture

this ratcheting up of the currency war thingie by Japan Inc., according to a lot of pundits will exacerbate the FX roller coaster big time; do you see it affecting the Euro fluctuation much relative to the USD?

Germany and Japan are head to head in this shrinking world car segment of the global transactions; except of course in Bric type markets. 

I have a feeling 2013 will be a very rock and roll time in FX as in Asset quotes on WS; or it could be just the opposite, very inert! 

Should I toss a coin on that?

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 09:25 | 3205757 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

yes, please, toss the coin - but I maintain that the big players like it choppy, zagged, full of energy (which they can skim)

it's my private pet churn theory

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:39 | 3205637 Volaille de Bresse
Volaille de Bresse's picture

"Germany's recall of US-stored gold is a sham, window dressing.  The real goal is to get their gold out of France"

 

Idiot! We French HAVE the German gold, we can deliver it within 2 weeks. What Merkel want is her gold "stored" in the US. 7 years? HA!

 

You might understand Germany's move as the first MAJOR act of deglobalization. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deglobalization

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 08:51 | 3205664 Downtoolong
Downtoolong's picture

Look at the failures of corrupt dictatorships and similar regimes in just the last two years, i.e., Egypt, Libya, etc. Ask yourself, what form of money it was that the falling leaders were scrambling to position and hide for themselves before their inevitable demise. Hint, it wasn’t hordes of paper cash, securities, or account statements from their favorite fund manager. It was gold. Do you really think it will any different when a major government falls?

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 09:15 | 3205730 goldenbuddha454
goldenbuddha454's picture

Spot On!

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 09:16 | 3205733 goldenbuddha454
goldenbuddha454's picture

Turkey paying Iran for oil in Gold, not Fiat!

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 09:36 | 3205793 mendigo
mendigo's picture

For Germany to have anounced a non-event such as this is suspect and somewhat reinforces the lack of trust.

The fact that they felt it necesary to allow 7 years to complete is less than reassuring - are they trying to freak us out?

They should be able to thier gold at will without advance notice - its not like your talking about relocating your armed forces or a national monument.

Fri, 02/01/2013 - 14:08 | 3206774 Stares straight...
Stares straight ahead's picture

Not sure this is correct when they call for half of all of the American held gold.  Why not just 15%?

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