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Twinkies Union Issues Ultimatum: We Get Our Jobs Back Or The Company Gets It Again

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Following a brief infomercial for Gordian Group's apparent skills in bringing dough-makers and yeast-cooking perfection to the table - arguing that they are here to preserve jobs (for skilled workers who have been apparently working for below-market wages) - and maximizing value for the Bakery Union; Peter Kaufman stops the pretense of helping and goes straight for the threat. "We are here to work with credible bidders to get started right away with a great work-force; on the other hand, if bidders don't want to work with us (and re-hire Hostess employees), the union will ask the AFL-CIO to put any Hostess product on its 'boycott product' list." But "we're here to help," he reminds the somewhat stunned CNBC anchor. It seems beggars are once again choosers... as the entitled roll on.

Of course, far be it from us to point out the incredible irony that it was the labor union's unwillingness to negotiate that forced the company to run out of cash; and now that same union, that effectively blew up their employer, demands to have jobs restored as if nothing happened, and likely with the same (apparently higher comp) demands entitlements as before.

 

 

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Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:46 | 3218184 stormsailor
stormsailor's picture

remember the coke machine that looked like a lunar lander.  it only took a dime and had a lever.  the little coke slid down a ramp from a covered hole.  and old stores had drink coolers with cold water in them

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:46 | 3218185 stormsailor
stormsailor's picture

remember the coke machine that looked like a lunar lander.  it only took a dime and had a lever.  the little coke slid down a ramp from a covered hole.  and old stores had drink coolers with cold water in them

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 20:09 | 3218244 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Gas is roughly 13 cents today as measured in silver dimes.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 21:38 | 3218443 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

Exactly.  Thank you.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:00 | 3217803 nofluer
nofluer's picture

I have 9 boxes of Devil Dogs in the freezer

You keep MARINES in your freezer?

As to prices... I remember 5 cent candybars and two-for-a-penny candy.

Yep..... gettin' OOOOOLD! ;-D

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 16:57 | 3217545 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

TWINKIE BAILOUT!!!

A CASH FOR CLUNCKERCANDY PROGRAMM!!!

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 16:57 | 3217546 Joebloinvestor
Joebloinvestor's picture

Union threats.

How original.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 16:57 | 3217547 vintageyz
vintageyz's picture

"optionality?"  how about the option of stuffing some ding dongs up your ass, Peter?!

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 16:57 | 3217549 Demonoid
Demonoid's picture

Nice bakery you got there, cupcake. Shame if anything happened to it....

ho ho ho ho ho

 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:28 | 3218122 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Speaking of which, when are you opening YOUR shop back up? ;)

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 20:20 | 3218268 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Yes, we'd all like to get a crack at it.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 16:58 | 3217550 monopoly
monopoly's picture

Hire union workers to make cup cakes that have so many chemicals in them I cannot even pronounce half of them. Bad management and high "labor" costs destroyed this company. How can we make this work if we have the same costs? Oh, you will get back to us on that. OK> we will wait.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 16:58 | 3217551 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

Unions made America great.
But they need to reinvent themselves.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:29 | 3217682 Marco
Marco's picture

The union boss is a sociopath. Instead of backing down and admitting he made a mistake he just goes into fantasy land. The rise of sociopathy at the top is hardly unique to unions though, the US (and the world) has to reinvent itself.

The Teamsters were willing to compromise ... unions don't act irrational by design, only by bad leadership.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:34 | 3217702 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

Unions made America great?

Where did you get that from?  The Union handbook?

They served a useful purpose years ago but are a drain on resources and serve no useful purpose in today's world.

 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:37 | 3217718 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

wage protection
job protection
employees wheren't caddle

if you don't know what unions did you know shit about American history.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:04 | 3217818 nofluer
nofluer's picture

Unions made America great.

No. They didn't. America was great LONG before the first union screwoff shouted "scab" at a non-union worker.

But they need to reinvent themselves.

Yeah... reinvent themselves as NON-union workers.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 21:25 | 3218420 bunnyswanson
bunnyswanson's picture

Having grown up in the area where coal mining industry is located, I can tell you that union workers gave the men who could not breathe after several years given you selfish sonofabitches the ability to turn on the lights and shower under hot water. 

The obesity epidemic is not gluttony in this country.  The obesity is making a fortune for weight loss industry, including physicians who perform bypass surgery.

When the people eat food that is not fortified with vitamins/minerals which are essential, their bodies demand more food.  They may be swollen beyond recognition but they are starving to death.

You boys are idiots.  I am surprised you can count your money; maybe your daddy does it for you.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 23:43 | 3218850 thepixelpusher
thepixelpusher's picture

Good point. ^^

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 16:59 | 3217554 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 How do you write/spell "Hostess" in Chinese?

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:20 | 3217876 Jena
Jena's picture

M-E-L-A-M-I-N-E

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 21:25 | 3218418 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

I thought that was Mandarin for milk

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 22:18 | 3218546 Jena
Jena's picture

It's a contaminant/filler in all sorts of products.  Remember the animal food debacle a few years back with the dog illness and death?  That was melamine, too.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:13 | 3218066 Massholio
Massholio's picture

I see what you did there ^^

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 20:10 | 3218246 Bub Ba
Bub Ba's picture

geisha

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:00 | 3217565 SIOP
SIOP's picture

Do not piss of the Union boyz, or that cream filling might not be what you think it is.     (ewwwwww!)

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:05 | 3217581 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

It would probably be more better for you than the chemical

crap they put in the filling.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:25 | 3217660 elementary
elementary's picture

Nah.  Too salty.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:07 | 3217826 catacl1sm
catacl1sm's picture

Lots of protein.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:02 | 3217569 Guinny_Ire
Guinny_Ire's picture

Hostess RIP.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:18 | 3217869 Five8Charlie
Five8Charlie's picture

Hostess - Good Riddance

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:02 | 3217572 devo
devo's picture

Grown men talking about Twinkies. Jeez.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:03 | 3217576 secret_sam
secret_sam's picture

Maybe they should just make unions illegal.  Like short-selling.  That'd solve this, right?

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:07 | 3217592 world_debt_slave
world_debt_slave's picture

yep, unions are not about workers or profits for companies but to steal the wealth from union members and companies to line the pockets of union bosses and politicians.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:41 | 3217729 secret_sam
secret_sam's picture

If the police were really doing their job, they'd be preventing all wage-earning subjects from meeting up and organizing. 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:02 | 3217813 world_debt_slave
world_debt_slave's picture

yeah, local, state and federal police forces are unionized by design.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:05 | 3217580 astoriajoe
astoriajoe's picture

The hostess stand at my corner store has been filled with other non-hostess products. I would imagine those regional bakers will be happy to keep filling the stand.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:05 | 3217586 Richard Head
Richard Head's picture

Peter Kaufman, ridiculous douche!

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:07 | 3217596 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Lol.

Yeah, that yeast is some tricky shit, boy... Almost as dangerous as a runaway nuclear reactor.

One slip and we could lose the whole city.

Look for the Union Lable.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:35 | 3217708 exgop
exgop's picture

LOL

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:11 | 3217607 wagthetails
wagthetails's picture

does anyone have a pic of a guy holding himself hostage?

the sad part is that neither the union nor the bidder realize they are in a dead market of selling 1950s kitchy processed goods.  eventually american will eat less of it over time...or our state will outlaw it. 

 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:46 | 3217748 Tod E. Tosspot
Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:12 | 3217610 101 years and c...
101 years and counting's picture

just send the jobs to china!

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:12 | 3217613 MyBrothersKeeper
MyBrothersKeeper's picture

Who are we kidding...most of these jobs at Hostess could be done by high school students (well maybe not the ones in Chicago or Detroit but you get my point)

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:13 | 3217614 astoriajoe
astoriajoe's picture

I think I may start my own brand of baked goods and call it Mostess.

I got a little sick during that interview.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:15 | 3217618 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

ZH seems to be offering one side of the story here. The pro-management anti-union side (hardly a surprise but whateer...)

 

Here's a little more on the bigger picture:

Vulture capitalism — not unions — killed Twinkies Hedge funds took profits and piled on millions in debt at Hostess. They created this bankruptcy, not unions

 

 

Hostess (then known as Interstate) initially entered bankruptcy in 2004, with uncomfortably close to half a billion dollars in debt. Sixty percent of the debt was owned by hedge funds Silver Point Capital and Monarch Alternative Capital, the rest by an assortment of other lenders. No one who was paying attention to the company’s fortunes was surprised by the move. During the nearly five years of its initial bankruptcy, the company accrued even more debt.

As these conditions lingered the workforce agreed to massive pay and benefit cuts in an attempt to keep the company afloat. One 14-year veteran of the company describes the $150 million annual givebacks the union agreed to: “In 2005, before concessions I made $48,000, last year I made $34,000.” Pensions and healthcare were cut as well, with labor’s total loss equaling $110 million annually.

Following these massive givebacks, a private equity company called Ripplewood Holdings brought the company out of bankruptcy in 2009 for $130 million and rechristened it Hostess Brands. The hedge funds and other lenders forgave some old debt and extended some new debt. Ripplewood convinced the other stakeholders that it could turn the company around and, apparently, convinced them so completely that only Hostess Management and Ripplewood had seats on the board. Neither the unions nor the hedge funds acquired voting seats as part of the deals struck to keep the company afloat. They just trusted Ripplewood to turn things around, implement new technologies, introduce new products, and rebuild aging infrastructure.

That’s not how things worked out.

As a result of management that still hadn’t really attempted to adapt itself to new market realities, the company earned profits in 2011 of $2.5 billion: That’s 11 percent less than in 2008, before Ripplewood took over. But thanks to debt approaching $1 billion, Hostess ended 2011 with a loss of $341 million. The CEO who led the company back into bankruptcy? He got a pay raise — while Hostess pushed a 30 percent salary and benefit cut onto its employees. (A previous failed chief executive, Brian J. Driscoll, was pushed out, but only after the board tripled his pay package to $2.55 million.)

That leaves the unions in one corner and the hedge funds and Hostess management in the other. Management ordered the company to stop contributing to the union pension funds, ignoring their obligations under collective bargaining agreements. They have demanded a new round of concessions, which would have doubled insurance premiums, negated all pension obligations, and slashed pay by 27 to 32 percent. Again, the 14-year Hostess bakery veteran: “Remember how I said I made $48,000 in 2005 and $34,000 last year? I would make $25,000 in five years if I took their offer. It will be hard to replace the job I had, but it will be easy to replace the job they were trying to give me.”

Hostess CEO Greg Rayburn attempted to blame the company’s collapse on its workers and, in a move that seems calculated to add insult to injury, today asked a bankruptcy judge permission to pay executives $1.75 million in bonuses to oversee the dissolution of the company (and 18,000-plus union jobs). And that’s after a round of executive pay raises earlier this year.

 

You can read the full article here...or you can just junk this post and blame the evil unions. I really don't care anymore.

http://www.salon.com/2012/11/20/vulture_capitalism_not_unions_killed_twi...

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:17 | 3217627 astoriajoe
astoriajoe's picture

Takes two or more to tango.

They should just buy the brands themselves and usher in the glorious dawn of the Union-owned revolution.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:24 | 3217656 SmallerGovNow2
SmallerGovNow2's picture

bingo joe...

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:24 | 3217658 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

The workers took a 30% pay cut and the CEO gave himself a 300% raise and somehow you guys can perform the requisite intellectual jujitsu needed to arrive at the conclusion that the fault lays with the union?

fuckin amazing really.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:36 | 3217716 astoriajoe
astoriajoe's picture

"Remember how I said I made $48,000 in 2005 and $34,000 last year? I would make $25,000 in five years if I took their offer. It will be hard to replace the job I had, but it will be easy to replace the job they were trying to give me.”

So he should go replace the job they were trying to give him. Problem solved.

He probably could start a company with better products than the crap that hostess was producing, charge a higher price and employ a few of his friends.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:40 | 3217724 khakuda
khakuda's picture

They are all to blame.  Financial management was poor, product management/marketing was poor and the union's attitude is clearly very poor from this video.  Debate salaries and pay packages and point fingers all you want, but they are irrelevant if you are out of business.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:18 | 3217631 wonderatitall
wonderatitall's picture

fuck the union nazis

and fuck hostess crap

 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:23 | 3217654 SmallerGovNow2
SmallerGovNow2's picture

This union guy was a complete thug.  Typical strong arm politics and fine example of these special interest babies...

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:32 | 3217694 nobusiness
nobusiness's picture

If it is so easy to replace the (Bullshit) reduced $25,000 job then why strike?  Go get a fucking new higher paying job and the free market would be functioning perfectly

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:35 | 3217710 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that reading comprehension is not your forte?

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:10 | 3217836 nofluer
nofluer's picture

$34,000 still seems like a lot of money to fish the occasional mangled twinky from the automated line... just sayin...

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 21:30 | 3218428 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

A family on wefare/SNAP/Medicade gets $54k a year, why work at all?

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:36 | 3217927 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

This is the same story that has been happening in this country for the last thirty years over and over again. Viable companies destroyed by the new version of capitalism: "Predatory Capitalism". Reverse takeovers followed by loading up the companies with humongous debt and outright looting. Destroying the company and the loss of jobs paying a living wage. Traditional American Capitalism which has be the major building block of the greatness of this country, has been perverted by the new version of "Predatory Capitalism". This has been deliberate and it should be criminal. It is destroying this country!

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:03 | 3218025 Quarky Gluon
Quarky Gluon's picture

I'm really starting to wonder who is behind this ZH website.  At one time I assumed there was just one guy behind the Tyler Durden username -- not anymore.  I now suspect that a wealthy trade group composed of non-banker businessmen started and fund this site in an effort to make their version of 'free enterprise' a hip and cool concept.  I doubt if any of those businessmen are particularily good at writing but they have plenty of money to hire a number of starving authors willing to prostitute their abilities by spewing the sorts of propaganda that support policies that will allow those businessmen to get even richer -- because they are never satisfied with the mountain of wealth that they already have. 

Now this article really tops it.  For the figures directing and funding this site I'm picturing in my mind a gang of middle aged white men in their taylored suits, Rolex watches with professionally manicured hands that likely never saw a day of manual labor in their lives putting out an article like this that bad mouths the union organizations that were the only entities ever strong enough to stand up to business owning thugs and squeeze out a living wage from them so the workers could emerge from the oppressive poverty like the sorts detailed in Sinclair Lewis's book 'The Jungle.' 

So, what does 'free enterprise' mean to you ZH, whoever you are?  Does it mean the freedom to exploit workers and the environment to whatever extent you please?  Are you ok with creating a company town where one business owns and runs everything where all its plebs can be labeled as 'free' just because there is no barb wire fence around that town and so anyone is free to leave anytime they want?  Is that your version of freedom Tyler Durden?  Do you have any understading or do you even care about the long history of worker exploitation by businesses that has only been measured by unions and the government?

 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:11 | 3218058 pashley1411
pashley1411's picture

Funny, I've always picture the Tyler's as a gaggle of pink bunnies humping each other. 

to each their own.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:23 | 3218105 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

I thought they were guys hanging out at the coffee shop after an aa/na meeting.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 20:32 | 3218300 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Wow, maybe the Tylers should offer this guy a job behind the curtain, he's got a vivid imagination and would be a great addition to the current gagle of starving authors willing to prostitute their abilities by spewing the sorts of propaganda that support said policies.

What'a you say Tylers?

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:49 | 3218189 SIOP
SIOP's picture

@ Quarky Gluon, Although I disagree with most everything you said, I did enjoy reading it.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 22:22 | 3218561 Jena
Jena's picture

Upton Sinclair, I believe.

Wed, 02/06/2013 - 01:41 | 3219090 Quarky Gluon
Quarky Gluon's picture

Oops, you're right. Upton Sinclair wrote 'The Jungle.'

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 23:38 | 3218830 thepixelpusher
thepixelpusher's picture

Plus 1 for your informed opinion! Good job bringing light to a dark topic.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:18 | 3217629 nobusiness
nobusiness's picture

If you rescue our jobs, we will fuck you with the same demands that lost our jobs.  Where can I sign up to invest?

 

Or is this a ploy to tank the price so a union "friend" can make a cheap bid???

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:19 | 3217638 nobusiness
nobusiness's picture

Doesn't Al Gore have a $100 million to invest?  Cash on the sidelines

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:18 | 3217633 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

How does a union worker wink?

He opens one eye.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:08 | 3217827 thepixelpusher
thepixelpusher's picture

How does a company exec get rich?

 

He runs the company into the ground, gets a multi-million dollar golden parachute to retire filthy rich, has the media do a hatchet job on the powerless workers and takes advantage of wealthy only tax havens.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:18 | 3217634 khakuda
khakuda's picture

2:32 - "We're here to help"

 

Has anyone not gotten the shaft after hearing those words?

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:26 | 3217666 Jethro
Jethro's picture

Pick any tribe on a reservation....

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:10 | 3217834 thepixelpusher
thepixelpusher's picture

Whenever the govt. amd company execs say that.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:22 | 3217648 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

Never thought I'd see a Twinkies Twuck Dwiver paid more then my family doctor...but there you have it!

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:24 | 3217650 Pinefox
Pinefox's picture

I was incensed when I saw the interview and it might drive me to eat some Twinkies if they every come back on the market as long as NON union bakers are making them!  Here is a guy whose organization was part of the ruination of the company threatening to boycott the product if the Union doesn't get its way in an attempt to destroy the comoany.  This is a text book case of why people are fed up with Unions (no pun intended). Why would a buyer take over the company, with the risk involved knowing the Union is going to do everything it can to harm it? This guy tried to take the high road at first, touting the advantages of Union labor, but resorted to "holding a gun" to any prospective buyer's head with his coerciive threat.  Another Union resorting to brawn over brain.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:33 | 3217699 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

Wouldn't you be even happier if they were made in China or Mexico or India? You know we can get them to work for $1 a day and no doubt the fine folks in upper management will pass the savings on to you instead of pocketing it for themselves...right?

Wed, 02/06/2013 - 08:14 | 3219382 knotjammin2
knotjammin2's picture

This isn't about where they are made but who will make them.  The fact that Kaufman dosen't know when to keep his mouth shut tells me he needs to go.  I'm no union fan but Kaufman has done a great injustice to the union he represents.  To threaten any potential buyers before you even know who they are just shows Kaufmans stupidity.  Kaufman just put the last nail in the union coffin!!

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:27 | 3217664 knotjammin2
knotjammin2's picture

Peter Kaufman is a fucking idiot.  If he represented me his ass would be out the door.  This dumb ass is threatening the potetial buyers that could possibly hire some of the union workers.  So tell me why in the hell would I buy a Hostess Brand again.  Makes me want to crawl in bed with the union!! Fucking Idiot!!

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:27 | 3217670 Bennie Noakes
Bennie Noakes's picture

Woo! Scary!

I wasn't aware the AFL-CIO had a boycott product list. What products are on it?

I guess it doesn't really matter very much because in order for the boycott list to have any effect, AFL-CIO members would need to be able to read.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:28 | 3217677 LongBallsShortBrains
LongBallsShortBrains's picture

Looks like the same people running the public schools are running this union. Too bad Americans who put their children in public schools don't realize the similarities between public school teachers, and Twinkie engineers, between the quality of a Twinkie product, and the quality of a public school "education". What is on tv tonight......?

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:30 | 3217684 Fix It Again Timmy
Fix It Again Timmy's picture

The union got twanked, it's over - stop dreaming...

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:30 | 3217685 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

It's just amazing how a crowd that so constantly bemoans the decline of the middle class in America is so oblivious to the correlation between the demise of unions and the demise of the middle class.

Well, here is a chart, so you don't have to read too many words:

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/wp-content/uploads/issues/2011/04/...

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:37 | 3217711 secret_sam
secret_sam's picture

You're mistaking hysterical denial for oblivity. 

There are a lot of full-time "traders" here.  Their livelihoods are threatened by anything that can make the markets structurally more efficient--like quality employees, job stability, and decent management.

Financial parasites benefit most from high volatility, and volatility is primarily a result of unstable systems.  It all makes sense if you remember there are at least two sides to any market.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:17 | 3217868 nofluer
nofluer's picture

There are a lot of full-time "traders" here...

Sam... didn't your mama ever tell you that you don't piss in the potted plants when you go to someone's house as a guest. Offer suggestions, make comments about your observations, okay, but it's REALLY bad form to piss on the house plants.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:47 | 3217956 secret_sam
secret_sam's picture

Dude: this whole place is mostly a urinal.  You've never looked at the other comments here?

Believe me, my tiny contributions are FAR outweighed by the concerted efforts of the Jew-haters, the John Birchers, and the quasi-literate "anti-socialist" elderly crowd living off the backs of the younger generations they have nothing but contempt for.

We're all just doing our part.  If we save enough piss, maybe we can make some gunpowder.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:42 | 3217737 khakuda
khakuda's picture

Correlation is not causation

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:46 | 3217755 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

...and denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:58 | 3217792 khakuda
khakuda's picture

We don't make a lot of things in this country anymore...shoes, clothes, etc and those jobs are gone.  Is it because there are no unions or because consumers bought clothes made overseas that were cheaper?  Adding a billion Chinese willing to work cheaper had nothing to do with it?

The decline in unions didn't cause the decline in the middle class.  The rise of cheap overseas labor caused the decline.

Anyone with a heart feels bad for these guys, including a lot of guys on this site.  This wasn't the America these workers were promised.  Instead of complaining about it, you should start a company here and make great products.  It can be done.  I hate shopping and would gladly pay more for the US made jeans that lasted 25 years I had as a teenager.  Make the product and convince me it is value worth paying for.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:25 | 3217894 smartstrike
smartstrike's picture

The economic reality precludes this type of behavior.  Consumers are forced to buy the cheapest items possible as they lose earning power. It's a Catch-22. 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:41 | 3217923 nofluer
nofluer's picture

We don't make a lot of things in this country anymore...shoes...

Wake up and smell the coffee... wait. We DON'T make coffee here... but shoes? We sure do! Belleville Boots are made in the USA, and Bates Boots are made in the US, Canada, and the UK. And those are just the brands and types that I wear... why? Because they are better made and last longer than any foreign made brands. Are they union made? don't know - don't care. they make high quality products at a reasonable price, and THAT is what builds a company.

As for cheaper - if the US boots last three times as long as the Chinese boots, then you'd have to buy three pair of Chinese boots to get the same durability... If the Chinese boots cost half as much as the US boots, you're losing money buying the Chinese stuff.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:59 | 3218211 khakuda
khakuda's picture

...as are Allen Edmonds and Alden dress shoes.  And you are right, they are completely worth it and a lot cheaper in the long run.  My point exactly.  It can be done here AND you need to convince people that they not only get a better product, but are saving money in the long run.  A lot of companies went out of business due to cheaper labor and even Allen Edmonds has a cheaper line made outside the US, but these are great examples that it can be done.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:05 | 3218034 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

***Make the product and convince me it is value worth paying for.***

Would you really want to invest all your capital in your own business manufacturing something when you know the a Chinese company can come in and undercut your price by 50%. It has happened over and over to many America entrepreneurs. It's the suppressed story of the destruction of traditional American capitalism.

 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:46 | 3217756 SoCalBusted
SoCalBusted's picture

Chart assumes zero sum.

Chart does not show those that were once in middle class becoming upper middle class.

 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 21:36 | 3218440 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

How does this chart line up with manufacturing jobs? Part of the middle class/union decline is the export of these jobs to the 2nd/3rd world. My experience with Union and GOVT is that only ratfuckers make it to the top, and that's why you have ratfuckers like this talking. I think a PE deal with the union to run it could work. That was the idea (Not saying it was good..) with GM, they gave the UAW a 30% stake, so they would only fuck themselves if they were unreasonable. I think a big provision in bankruptcy should be that the employees get to take over, and try and turn the place around. 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:31 | 3217691 NotAMathWhiz
NotAMathWhiz's picture

Just an extension of the entitlement mentality.  Union workers make a very smooth transition to unemployment benefits, SNAP and welfare.

Abandon all hope.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:32 | 3217693 Gamma735
Gamma735's picture

Screw The Union.  Go ask Buffet if he uses unions. 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 21:37 | 3218441 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

Becky Quick is in a union, and he stuffs that ho-stess, so he uses unions.....

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:33 | 3217700 Fezter
Fezter's picture

No Hostess, No Peace!!!.....No Blood for Creamy Filling!!!!

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:34 | 3217703 laomei
laomei's picture

Sigh.... more idiocy that ignores the fact that the vulture fund sucked every last dime out of the company.  Had nothing to do with the union, apart from finally saying enough was enough.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:37 | 3217720 Fezter
Fezter's picture

I think Vulture Funds are peckers rather than suckers.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:44 | 3217738 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

I tried. Forget it. They don't want to hear it here. They just want to rant and rave about the decline of the middle class and then blame unions for that decline. It's utterly idiotic. But, at the end of the day, what we have here are mostly stock traders. their income is derived from the stock market (that they also love to rant and rave against)...but in the final analysis, all this proves is that Upton Sinclair was right: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” (that quote also perfectly describes the CNBC morons)

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:51 | 3217768 Fezter
Fezter's picture

I am a twinkie maker and I am the middle class....bring me your street sweepers and I will give them 8 weeks paid vacation, early retirement, and health care for life. The Great AFL "Middle Class Maker" CIO has spoken, and your ass better listen.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:56 | 3217785 Sun and Moon
Sun and Moon's picture

The unions are more responsible for the decline of the middle class than anything else. When I was young, the steel and auto industries were huge, employing massive numbers of people. You almost never saw a foreign-made car on the streets (except for a very few expensive luxury cars).

Now, American cars are in the minority in many places. Why is that? Because they are expensive and their quality sucks. And why is that? Because of the unions. I long ago learned that "the union label" means "low quality" and now all union made products are on my personal boycott list.

Union activists like to portray unions in a struggle against greedy management. But unions are just as greedy (if not more so) and unions are really in a war with consumers, trying to force us into buying crappy products at high prices.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:49 | 3217960 secret_sam
secret_sam's picture

That's not really what happened. 

The fundamental problem is that you can't sell expensive American products to the current American "workforce," because most of that workforce is 10,000 miles away and earns $20 a week.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:57 | 3218001 IamtheREALmario
IamtheREALmario's picture

I disagree. The unions are the middle class. Execs who piled on the costs of funding their lifestyle and anti-competitive measures, including bribing politicians and excessively costly advertising legal and regularly costs have a much bigger effect than labor costs.

It is not labor costs that kill US manufacturing. It is everything else.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:13 | 3218057 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

***I tried. Forget it.***

You did try and it was a valiant effort. But in the end - "As a dog returns to its vomit, so the fools here return to their folly."

 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:35 | 3217712 stant
stant's picture

i put my fake trillion dollar coin in the vault with that twinkie i won at the 12/21 end of the world party. theres hope for at least one to gain value

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:21 | 3218098 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

make a trillion dollar platinum twinkie. hard to eat, but holds its value. kills 2 birds w/1 stone.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:40 | 3217725 groundedkiwi
groundedkiwi's picture

What is a Twinkie?

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:59 | 3217800 Legolas
Legolas's picture

I think it has something to do with the sodomite crowd.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:58 | 3218006 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

your illegal pResident.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:40 | 3217726 Lendo
Lendo's picture

Unions are their own worst enemy. 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:41 | 3217732 Rockatanski
Rockatanski's picture

i think his vagina has an incorrect yeast balance.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:42 | 3217736 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

actually.. screw management.

throw out all their management and let the workers work and manage themsleves.  That's what really happens anyway except the part where management sucks all the bonuses and high pay for nothing

 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:00 | 3217805 LongBallsShortBrains
LongBallsShortBrains's picture

Let the union buy the assets if they want to run things. I'm sure they will be kinder to the employees than farmer Jones, er, I mean the former owners.

They want profits without risk. They wish to profit off of the capital of those who take risk, but wish not to incur risk themselves.

You could GIVE the assets to the union, and they would still bury the company in twenty years or less. They don't understand risk management.

Yes I know they trade their labor for wages. Finding a person to replace a manual labor position which can be taught to a high school aged person in two weeks, is not difficult.

Finding somebody to risk tens of millions of dollars to be in the position of Hostess, owning a business being held hostage by its employees' union, while margins are shrinking, is going to prove much more difficult than replacing a few union employees.

Think it's unfair? Think they are making too much off the back of the labor class? Then YOU BUY IT and run it how you like.

What? Don't have the $?

Then quit trying to ru(i)n their company.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:31 | 3217916 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

Ok, so you didn't read what I wrote.

I said get rid of managers.  What managers put up any skin in the game?

 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 20:31 | 3218298 LongBallsShortBrains
LongBallsShortBrains's picture

Not directed at you.

We agree

I just replied to you out of laziness.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:42 | 3217941 bunnyswanson
bunnyswanson's picture

Banks aren't lending, that is why.  A business is impossible to run without a line of credit.  Competing with the low prices of the products coming from mega corporations is also impossible (3.95 for tank tops at Wal-Mart do result in the closures of privately owned clothing boutiques). 

I would ban mega corporations entirely from operating within US, ban their products.  Give the citizens a goddam job that pays a living wage and they'd be on Main Street spending the money, and the fucking show would begin.  What's so fucking complicated about that?

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:06 | 3218040 BurningFuld
BurningFuld's picture

"What's so complicated about that?"  Well it's become vary complicated to remove Corporate Greed from most politicians ass. It's kinds stuck waaay up there.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:51 | 3217745 thepixelpusher
thepixelpusher's picture

Why is it that people assume the Unions ruined Hostess!? Could it be the Execs ran the company into the ground, while taking big salaries? No, it's always the lowly paid worker with little control over the company direction that gets bashed and blamed for the train wreck of a company. The trouble wasn't with the unions, it was with the people making the company decisions, plain and simple.

 

Some scream Union Entitlement. Get your brains out of your butt. The companies have lobbists that get them all kinds of govt welfare entitlements and govt welfare tax breaks so that the execs are well paid, while screwing USA workers out of benefits, income and sending jobs overseas. There should be balance to each side. If you think unions are strong, just ask the teachers in Wisconsin why they had to give back 1/2 of the money in their pensions, are taking a 20% pay cut, and are adding 30% more students/work to their schedule.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:36 | 3217930 W74
W74's picture

There's actually some truth to that.  Those execs DID take huge bonuses and raises during the boom years and then never toned it down when profit margins were tighter.

Now, with teachers, that's a mixed bag.  Where I live they are grossly overpaid for the work that they do and property taxes are rising by a couple hundred each and every year, even on modestly sized homes.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:45 | 3218181 thepixelpusher
thepixelpusher's picture

Nope. The teachers you probably are thinking of had to get a Masters Degree for an elevated wage, otherwise they are paid poorly. On top of that they have to get recertified every few years with a set of classes that cost quite a bit. Additionally, teacher pay out of their pockets for school room items due to the lack of budget just so your kid can have a good learning environment. Teachers are underpaid for the work they do. Most people couldn't handle the work they do. Sorry, you are plain wrong.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:45 | 3217746 groundedkiwi
groundedkiwi's picture

Anyone here who has ever used a lobbyist firm is being hypocritical complaining about a union.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:46 | 3217752 MagicHandPuppet
MagicHandPuppet's picture

This interview just lowered the street price of this union-"protected" operation a great deal... possibly taking its value below zero.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:46 | 3217754 yogibear
yogibear's picture

He has nothing. If a company doesn't hire the worker back what is the guy going to do?

The new owner can open a Hostess factory in Jamaica or Haiti.

Practically slave labor.

Minimum wage in Jamaica is $37/week.

 

 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:56 | 3217784 thepixelpusher
thepixelpusher's picture

So what is the author compalining about!? Unions have no real power anymore, yet get all the blame in the media and seemingly by many here that drank the Jonestown Kool-Aid. The govt is practically falling over themselves tp help the rich execs of these large companies to kill labor jobs in the USA to send them overseas. Why don't people complain about that killing companies? If the workers here cannot afford to buy products because they are out of work, who will buy the products. USA is the #1 consumer out there.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 20:27 | 3218284 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

Hey mon & mem bagay.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:48 | 3217758 jmcadg
jmcadg's picture

Fuckin Unions man.

If I had worked for Hostess driving a van for $100k, I'd now be on the union warpath to strangle these fuckers. 

Right there, they lost the jobs period.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:56 | 3217995 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

100K?

Wait'll they find out Barry is gonna give their jobs to mexicans.

!Ole!

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:53 | 3217772 moroots
moroots's picture

What's stopping the union from stepping to the plate and buying the company? 

Union assholes, you think you can run the company profitably paying union wages/benefits?  Go right fucking ahead and put your money where your mouth is.

Until they put a bid in, they should STFU.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:02 | 3217812 thepixelpusher
thepixelpusher's picture

The poor workers who don't have stock options and big exec perks? The workers who are up against companies that want to pick the bones of the company, ones who have investment firms lined up to do that? Maybe they tried to get a buyout together. What do you know?

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:34 | 3217922 moroots
moroots's picture

Money talks, bullshit walks.  You want to dictate how the capital is used?  Buy it yourself.  Otherwise, what incentive do you have to use the capital wisely and efficiently?  Nobody is stopping the union from putting up.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:45 | 3217950 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

you guys are missing a big fuckedup piece here. 

remove all managers that do not bring any skin to the game.  The clowns these days are GIVEN tons of shares in compensation to rape the company.  I rather just see owners and workers.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:59 | 3218012 moroots
moroots's picture

It's the Board of Director's, as representative of the shareolders (owners of capital) job to align management and ownership's interests.  If management is raping the company, it's the BoD's/shareholders' responsibilty and perogative to take action.  After all, it's THEIR capital that's being consumed.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:18 | 3218090 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

Right, I agree.. just have the board work with the workers.   The idea that these middle managers provide any value is the disconnect

if you really want to keep them, outsource them to India as well..  they don't deserve shit for the 'work' they do

 

 

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:39 | 3218156 thepixelpusher
thepixelpusher's picture

After the company management broke Hostess, you want the unions to buy it!?? You think they are stupid, but I bet they are smarter than you apparently, andthey didn't want to take the reins of a ruined company.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 20:45 | 3218331 TotalCarp
TotalCarp's picture

How about i want union to just walk away? You dont like it - leave - the door is that way. They are nothing but bullies, attacking workers who wouldnt fall in line first and foremost.
Unions = poison.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:41 | 3217936 nflux
nflux's picture

stop using the poor worker bullshit to try to sell your retarded theories.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:33 | 3218136 thepixelpusher
thepixelpusher's picture

Follow the money to see who has the power. It's no theory. You'd be a better investor if you weren't so gullible.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 20:29 | 3218289 nflux
nflux's picture

I'm not an investor, I'm a 'poor worker' so you can quit that nonsense. You can't honestly think anybody that had all the power would pay any worker the outrageous wages that the union workers were pulling in. So yes I will follow the money. Those people should be making close to minimum wage for the skill and effort it took them to do their job. Union bullying was the only reason those workers were paid multiples more than what they were worth. Had they been paid what they were worth then they'd still have jobs. Instead they drive up costs unnecessarily and it is those union costs that sank this company.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:55 | 3217777 Legolas
Legolas's picture

Wow, twice in one day!  First Erick Holder and now the American Twinkies Union!

 

Here's the word of the day:

"EXTORTION"

Extortion - the crime of obtaining money or some other thing of value by the abuse of one's office or authority.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:57 | 3217790 are we there yet
are we there yet's picture

Just issue the unions unlimited stale twenkies for their EBT credits.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:58 | 3217793 LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

cocksucking extortionist

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 19:30 | 3218127 thepixelpusher
thepixelpusher's picture

...that would be the executives.

 

You see Hostess is not employee-owned, so the execs made the decisions and mistakes. The workers are just the fall guy in the corporate owned media. Hilarious that you fell for that though.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 20:47 | 3218334 TotalCarp
TotalCarp's picture

The workers get paid a salary for their work. Thats what being a worker means. It doesnt mean that you are entitled to anything else. Get over it you union stooge.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 21:38 | 3218444 thepixelpusher
thepixelpusher's picture

The only stooge here is you! Because you want to give "Moe" money to the slaveowners that keep you as an indentured servant. Oh, snap!

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 21:42 | 3218451 TotalCarp
TotalCarp's picture

Noone is indentured you moron. Walk away. Start your own business. But if you choose to not do so why should it be someone elses problem? The point of freedom is it cuts both ways thats what you fucking trolls dont get. Noone owns you but noone owes you either.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:59 | 3217798 Mi Naem
Mi Naem's picture

Who lets a union of twinks push them around?

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 17:59 | 3217799 ShrNfr
ShrNfr's picture

Actually, it was the Teamsters who drive the trucks that blew up the company, not the AFL-CIO guys. The teamsters wanted 120 grand a year to watch somebody load their trucks (with either Twinkies or Wonder Bread, but not both), drive to the supermarket and then watch somebody unload their trucks for 8 hours. No sympathy for either of them.

Tue, 02/05/2013 - 18:30 | 3217906 W74
W74's picture

A family friend of my in-laws grew up in a poor working-class neighborhood in Phillidelphia and had his first run in with Teemster Thugs as a teenager working after school.

He didn't know any better and says to the teemster "hey are you gona help?" (unload newspapers from his own truck) to which the teamster replied by throwing the kid (never mind that he's 14 and 95lbs) against his own truck and saying "listen kid, I drive trucks, YOU Unload trucks, got it?"

Heard that story about a dozen times and I won't forget it and I'll never shed a tear over union thugs losing their jobs because they destroyed the companies that employed them.

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