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A Bitcoin for Your Thoughts
The best performing currency year-to-date has no home country, no central banker and no physical scrip; it is the online-only ‘Bitcoin’ and as we noted recently, it is becoming more mainstream. BTC, as the currency is known, up 130% year to date in dollar terms, thanks to rising demand from a wide variety of adherents, which ConvergEx's Nick Colas notes, includes libertarian activists, small businesses, online drug dealers and gambling sites. That makes the Bitcoin a controversial subject, to be sure, but Nick notes we can also learn from this unique case study a lesson in global economics. Bitcoin ‘Money supply’ growth is capped at a slow rate – far below its current levels of demand. That makes it prone to boom-bust cycles. It also has no sovereign sponsorship, which means it works outside any nation’s security apparatus. Lose your bitcoins to hackers? Tough luck – there is no FDIC in these parts. Still, Colas concludes, in the creation and growth of the Bitcoin it is not hard to see the online future of currency, especially as real-world alternatives continue to struggle with sluggish economies.
Via ConvergEx's Nick Colas,
Every journalist knows that the epithet “Secretive billionaire” catches most readers’ attention like the landing hook on an F-16 making a carrier landing. If someone is rich and not in the public eye, what are they hiding? Are they crooks? Or just so happy with their lives that they don’t want to inspire any more jealousy than necessary? Inquiring minds (always) want to know...
Let me introduce you to Satoshi Nakamoto, secretive central banker. OK, truth is that he (it is probably a man) only uses that nom du guerre when writing research papers; no one knows his real name. And he isn’t so much a central banker as a technologist and architect of something called Bitcoin. Yeah, I hadn’t really heard of it either until I read an article on zerohedge about a “Bitcoin ATM” yesterday. I spent most of the day reading about Mr. Nakamoto and his virtual monetary construct, and there is much to learn from this first online success story in the world of stateless currencies.
Here’s a primer on the “Who-what-wheres” of Bitcoin:
- The elusive Satoshi Nakamoto published a research paper back in November 2008 outlining the structure for an Internet-only currency he dubbed bitcoin. Confidence in global currencies and financial system were at low points around the world. Why not try something new?
- Rather than have one central database of user balances and transaction history, Nakamoto’s design distributed the database to a network of third parties. Each one keeps the “Ledger” of owners and also runs hugely complex programs to solve cryptographic puzzles. Crack the puzzle, and you get fresh bitcoin currency for your trouble. The puzzles have grown so complex that people interested in working on them now band together online to share their computing power and hopefully earn a few bitcoins for their trouble.
- The overall supply of bitcoin in the system therefore grows at a slow and pre-ordained rate. There are currently 10.8 million bitcoins in the system, and this will cap out at 21 million coins in just over 125 years (2140, to be precise).
- To use bitcoin, you need a “Wallet” which allows you convert your local currency into BTC and back again. There are many available options online, as well as BTC “Exchanges” to execute the conversions. The distributed database which manages the system is anonymous, so there’s no central record of what you own or where you spent your money.
So what we have is a stateless currency, with essentially no government oversight, run by a bunch of nerds cracking puzzles, with an anonymous architect who (by the by) hasn’t been heard from in over a year. Yes, in other words a recipe for massive success. Some recent statistics:
- Those 10.8 million bitcoins in circulation are worth $345.6 million as of today. (See this and other stats here: http://bitcoinwatch.com/). The velocity of this money is astounding: 1.6 million bitcoins have changed hands in the last 24 hours, or over 10% of the existing money stock.
- The U.S. dollar value of a Bitcoin is up from just shy of $5.00 a year ago ($4.87, to be precise) to $31.09 today. It has appreciated by over 100% from the end of 2012 alone, when the quoted price was $13.48. And back during most of 2010, you could buy all the BTC you wanted for less than a dime.
- Over the last 24 hours, there have been +61,000 transactions using BTC. This is almost double the 30,000 transactions in January 2013, and more than 6x that of March 2012.
- That distributed ledger of BTC owners has one pitfall: it takes about 8 minutes to clear a Bitcoin transaction. The good news is that this is down from the +10 minutes of just a few months ago.
So at this point your BS-meters should be quivering – what’s going on here? Huge swings in value combined with growing adoption for a system which (aside from anonymity) seems more a step back than a great leap for mankind. The answers are part pulp fiction, part elegant case study on the real utility of “Money.” A few points here:
- While Bitcoin may not get much mainstream finance love, the FBI and various U.S. legislators are paying close attention. Turns out that some bitcoin-accepting online vendors (look up “Silk Road market”) with good anonymity software allow customers to buy illegal drugs using the similarly no-names-please Bitcoin.
- Online casinos who wish to cater to U.S. customers accept Bitcoins, again for the anonymity of the currency. The folks that run BTC “ledgers” do release aggregate financial information – where the money is going. And it is going to online gaming, with an unknown number of U.S. customers in the mix.
- At the same time, scores of legitimate businesses are also beginning to take BTC, in addition to dollars and euros. You can buy everything from socks to sneakers to precious metals to baklava online, all with Bitcoins. See here for a more complete list: https://www.spendbitcoins.com/places.
- When incremental adoption meets relatively fixed supply, it should be no surprise that prices go up. And that’s exactly what is happening to BTC prices. What’s interesting to note is why BTC prices plummet, which they did in the back half of 2011. The cause was a very short-lived hack attack on one Bitcoin “Wallet” company out of Japan, which caused the price to drop from $27 down to $2 in a few months. Confidence in money as a store of value is the ultimate driver of its value, both in the cyber and real worlds.
I have no idea which way Bitcoins will trade in the next 2 days or 2 years, but the whole process of starting a new Internet currency is a great case study in how real people use real currency. Limiting supply has clearly been a huge plus for the BTC. Becoming known as a currency for illegal drugs and gambling is more problematic, of course. But let’s not forget that the U.S. Treasury printed 3 billion $100 bills in the 2012 Fiscal Year. Most of those (the Federal Reserve estimates 80%) go overseas and many of them simply facilitate the global drug and arms trade, not to mention tax evasion and human trafficking. So the BTC’s growing role in the same types of business might qualify it for “Reserve currency” status sooner than anyone thinks.
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Or the CIA.
Covert Israel Attache?
http://www.phillyimc.org/en/israels-longstanding-middle-east-plan
I am on the phone at this minute talking to my son...he brings up that he put $50 in bitcoin a while back....He just checked his account and it's worth $294.
How bizarre is that that at the second this post went he was calculating his gain?
So now he's deciding whether to buy a jap passport, ecstacy from holland, an uzi or an amazon gift card...lol
Too fucking weird!
I vote for the X.
Back in the 90's... I bought $50 bucks of JDS Uniphase stock... Sure wish I'd bought a couple of pieces of eight instead...
Great story.....
Get a Jap hooker in Holland and pay her with an Amazon gift card.
Any alternate currency that is NOT officially state (aka nation) sanctioned, that enjoys near-monopoly if not absolute monopoly status as payment of public and private debt, that can be literally created at zero cost basis by fractional reserve banking interests (as The Bernank himself proudly and freely admits that it is) constitutes a direct and significant threat to the exisiting MMT system that is intentionally utilized to produce boom and bust economic and financial cycles.
Without being able to induce such boom and bust economic & financial cycles, harvest can't occur, and without harvest, the further concentration of real wealth (e.g. taking fee simple interest in assets that possess inherent value that were pledged as securitized collateral for fiat paper loans) can't continute to accrue to the ruling elite (aka Crony Capitalists in today's vernacular).
Hence, any alternate currency that grows in popularity and frequency of use as a medium of exchange of commerce will be severely frowned upon and the state will devise increasingly harsh methods to wipe it out of existence, as it threatens and runs contrary to the interests of the very top rung of the fiat oligarchy that owns allegedly sovereign governments (whether proclaimed as democratic or not) & that currently wield absolute control over the levers of the monetary system.
As you predict, the frowning Authorities are already on the case:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-28/bitcoin-s-gains-may-fuel-central-bank-concerns-chart-of-the-day.html
http://www.dgcmagazine.com/bitcoin-the-european-central-bank-sees-you-as-a-threat-to-financial-stability/
http://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/other/virtualcurrencyschemes201210en.pdf
So you're saying that BITCOINERS have more to fear from 'drones', than comedic comments from ZHers... Damn ~ & I thought I was getting somwhere...
Thanks for the links. This is maybe the most important information regarding the actual status of bitcoins.
I am curious to see, if there suddenly is an explosion in their popularity (more than at present), let's say an exponential awareness to them, how will they be distributed, how will the rise in price, how will the "mining" be altered, if at all, to suit growing use.
If nothing else this is a big middle finger to the BIS, IMF, ECB, FED, et al
Ponzi schemes only work if they're officially sanctioned and part of the system - then they are defended to the death (hence the upcoming forced feeding of 401K's into the US debt system).
Both of you are correct... Here's the math...
~~~
I posted [about a month ago]... the 'notional' value of all BITCOINS in existence VERSUS the notional value of all the various FIAT in the world [& loosely ~ how that attaches to perceived values of prized physical assets]...
To make a long story short ~ It's a ridiculous ratio... Which DOESN'T ~ in my mind ~ make the probable case for BITCOINS RISING [in value] to meet the par valuations... BUT RATHER ~ the easy to comprehend likelihood that even a modestly placed WHALE... ON A WHIM... could purchase up all the bitcoins on the planet [like a real estate, or oil speculator, buying up land from unsuspecting farmers]...
I'm guessing that that WHIM would be based upon putting an end to all the nonsense [like Mosanto buying up a mom & pop seed company]...
huh?
you wouldn't understand... just stick to your naked farming activities in Canada...
Greenspan in his younger and more lucid days acknowledged the absolute & inherent governmental hostility towards any competing or alternative currency to state issued monopoly fiat exactly as has been mentioned:
Gold and Economic Freedom (1966)
by Alan Greenspan
.
I think your logic is flawed, sir. Suppose a whale attempted to corner the bitcoin market. He would begin buying up bitcoins on the open market, exchanging (let's say) US dollars for them. As the supply of available bitcoins dwindled, their price would rise. Some people would refuse to sell entirely, perhaps out of principle. In the end the price of a bitcoin would rise exponentially out of the whale's purchasing reach. So in the end he's left with, say 90 or 95 or 99 percent of them before running out of dollars. Ho hum. Now what? He's got a bunch of bitcoins that he can spend down by purchasing goods and services from people or companies that will accept them. Or he can dissolve his bitcoin stock (destroy his private key), accept the capital loss, and declare the bitcoin project deceased. But what about the people who sold their bitcoins to the whale at inflated prices during the run up? Now they have a bunch of dollars to spend. Bitcoin is dead? Bring on bitcoin II. Those old bitcoin dollars will find their way back into the new bitcoin system. And bitcoin II will probably suck in many more speculators who look with envy at how much money the original bitcoin participants made. The whale will not have accomplished anything, except a huge money loss.
This will never happen. Bitcoin will not be killed by a whale spraying dollars at it with a fire hose.
Disclaimer: I am not a bitcoin participant. I hold no bitcoins. I am, however, broadly supportive of it.
Glad you found them useful. I have been reading up on Bitcoin, not being one to just jump in without research.
As usual, the "journalists" who cover this story couldn't identify irony if it hit them in the face. Take this headline, for example...
"bitcoin-the-european-central-bank-sees-you-as-a-threat-to-financial-stability"
@TruthInSunshine
Edit: You replaced your earlier post with a long excerpt about Greenspan for some reason - just putting in a note here for clarity, in case someone is confused by my reply.
You've ably described the obstacles facing bitcoin from governments and other power structures. I disagree that they'll be able to stop it, for a variety of reasons - one notably being that the system is decentralized. Governments have had trouble exerting their influence on such architectures.
Essentially, like other peer-to-peer technologies, I believe bitcoin will be able to survive in a similar manner.
I never said that they will or won't be able to stop bitcoin or any other nascent alternative medium of exchange from supplanting existing monopoly fiat in the future.
I merely said that the state (controlled by the monopoly fiat oligarchy) will deploy all of its tools and known methods to try and stop such alternative mediums of exchange from being popularized and utilized.
@TruthInSunshine
Yes, I was just stating my opinion on the subject, sorry if I didn't express that clearly - you did state what you've summarized in your latest reply.
Also, I was confused by the greenspan quote - but I see your other post was there after all. Just my luck, I guess :)
Not a prob.
The biggest drawback to bitcoin that I've come across is that your wallet is a usb stick. I don't trust usb sticks, and I don't know of a way to back up the wallet. If my wallet is on my (hard/usb/sd) drive and it crashes/gets lost, I lost all my bitcoins.
There are many options. Look into it.
> your wallet is a usb stick.
Your wallet can be your brain or a piece of paper:
http://brainwallet.org
https://www.bitaddress.org
You can store bitcoin in your BRAIN.
brainwallets
or store in the cloud
or get a QR code tatted on your ass
You can also print out or buy actual physical bitcoin coins with a private key which is blocked to preserve the "value" of bitcoin.
http://print.printcoins.com/
these bitcoin (wallet) addresses are impossible to run out of as their are trillions of combinations. these bills need to be funded of course with already established BTC. Once funded it is imposible for someone to steal the underlying bitcoins unless they gain access to your private key located on the bill. same is true with the actual physical casascius bitcoins
Bitcoins are as safe as an asset as the US dollar. Gold bugs who think this is a new miracle currency that will cure the fiat system will be soarely disapointed not to mention the pathetic liquidity
Not as disappointed as I am in your spelling.
No. Actually that just shows what gold and silver are trying to do, and where they would already be if left alone. The bankers got flanked. Now they look like friggin retards because bitcoin humilated them. That is like your money actually being worth less than monopoly money. Find a way to buy gold with your bitcoin.
BTC is rigged just as much as any fiat bullshit, anyday one person could kill it or replace it in a heartbeat. People using as a an inflation hedge will be bums in the long term
And you know this how?
Probably historical precident where a single hacked website or a dumping of bitcoins on the open market crashes the price to near zero in a single day.
You're so 2011.
And you should be ashamed of yourself for perpetuating this nonsense.
Ashamed of competition? You a free market hater? If BC is as dangerous as you claim, it will go NOWHERE. I say, let it live, or die, by it's own virtue or lackthereof, allow competition.
I'm ashamed of myself for not putting another $10k into bitcoins when they were at $5.
@MoneyThangs
I disagree.
I'd be interested how one person could kill or replace a decentralized system of many nodes. If you could reply, we could talk about those ideas.
Keep buying your gold and silver fool. they have already made their moves and will actually collapse when the morons on wall st. realize that bernanke has painted himself into a corner. Then we will see the true rigor of a deflationary collapse. everyone will sell their gold to pay margin calls and the price of the FRN will skyrocket.
“There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about
by credit (debt) expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should
come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit
(debt) expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency
system involved.” – Ludwig von Mises
bernanke, and the market, will choose voluntary abandonment, because to choose otherwise would destroy the federal reserve system. I don't think bernanke is that suicidal. he may be stupid, arrogant, detached, but he is not suicidal. he will seek to preserve his job/life/ and the federal reserve system. we are very close to the tipping point on the cost/benefit of creating more debt
There's already at least one site selling physical gold coins for bitcoin. Google is your friend.
I'm haven't jumped on board (yet), but what I read is pretty convincing that it's not a classic ponzi. For one thing, therer's no central entity resonsible for issuing (i.e., diluting) the currency. Also, though there's no cop to turn to in case you're defrauded, there is a network of public reviews of transactions-- an online reputation for the merchant.
The anonumity I love. The state will despises it, though, so I think one should be very careful where one conducts significant bitcoin transactions.
I think it's perhaps worth investing a few bucks to explore. Just my own opinon.
It's not a single entity running the ponzi. It's essentially an environment of corruption with dozens of confidence scams and ponzis running at any one time. For simplicity's sake rational people just say bitcoin is a ponzi but it is merely a general description of what is a culture of thievery and graft. Look up incidences of bitcoin scams and you will find literally hundreds of cases where people have lost huge amounts of bitcoin "wealth" due to the actions of people considered leaders of the bitcoin community. These guys have no shame and the fleeced will often become just as zealous in their attempt to regain their lost investment.
Hey look, a free market!
A wise man once said that you never know how expensive something can be until someone says it's free.
And a wise woman once said freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.
Well, you convinced me. It's time for me to get in early on bitcoin so that I can get rich quick*
*Not a get rich quick scam, promise.
Your fear is palpable.
"a wise woman once said freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"
~~~
that's funny... I just thought she was stoned to the verge of overdose... But maybe the point is the same.
If I was concerned about the vices of poets, artists, and philosophers it would really limit the selection.
If I was concerned about the ADvices of poets, artists, and philosophers it would really limit the selection...
which gov. lab do you work in tadpole? you are such an obvious sock puppet shill for the continuation of the dynastic banking central bank model. bitcoin is not about getting rich quick, although accumulating something with true value is a nice fringe benefit. bitcoin is about bringing down a despotic monetary system that does much more harm than good to the average person. ie upwards of 40% of money is used to pay interest on other money ie bonds, taxes, etc. pretty inefficient with a lot of friction; or it now takes ~six dollars of debt to create $1 of GDP. sounds like a good deal eh? bitcoin is a frictionless currency where it is impossilbe to counterfeit a bitcoin.
no need for someone like you to get rich quick when you are just a gov. paid scientist sucking at the public teet, eh? you have your little scam now don't you?
so what does that make you? a fucking moron tadpole with a very small brain.
"Freedom is a scam. Stay on the plantation."
-The Bernank
Because in the mind of a bitcoiner, you are either for bitcoin or you are for the US Dollar fiat.
Hey frog lady. anybody home. ya, we bitcoiners are all 0's and 1's in your microscopic view of things. "you're either with the terrorists or with us"--W such a moronic, simpleton analysis it doesn't even deserve comment. You are probably some government sock puppet "scientist" who works in a lab and studies tadpoles and think you have all the answers to everything in life.
Bitcoiners, or more properly miners, believe in an honest currency system which is not able to be manipulated by political or power elite at a whim. do you even know how a bitcoin comes into existance you fucking idiot? do ou think that BTC can be created out of thin air "by decree" like dollars can be by our "benevolent Ben" bernanke? It will be wonderful to see all of you government shills that parasitically live off the tax payer doing their "research" eat their own shit when bitcoin goes to $500/BTC. I was buying bitcoin back in 2011 at$0.10. Do the math Bitch. you are day late and a dollar short. the american people are going to wake up to the annonymity of bitcoin big time this summer. imagine the government not being able to track your every financial move. no need to imagine. it exists now and it is called Bitcoin!
I bought JDS Uniphase stock in the 90's when it was 10 cents a share... But I'm sure you're smarter than me with that Star of David avatar...
~~~
I'm just a FICTION writer... But... as a FICTION writer... I can imagine a FICTIONAL COMEDY whereby, at the end of the day, its discovered that the writers of the original BITCOIN CODE, were in the employ of the Rothschilds/JPM's/Lazards/ or whomever you wish to nominate...
Not that I'll be worried about any of that...
You're a knave.
Fictional writer =/= hysterical paranoid schizohrentic message board poster
Bully for you and your JDSU.
its a star of david innertwined with a nazi swastika dipshit!! Israel is a fascist dictatorship wrapped up with an apartheid racist theocracy. no democracy there, and they are no friend to america in the middle east. in reality, they are our enemy. search engine Israel attacks USS liberty.
Congrats...
~~~
Your SMALLTYPE [irony] face avoids the 'joojunkers'...
I hope [FOR YOU] that it makes you the next 'Sheldon Adelson' of BITCOINS... Maybe LasVegasDave will be your poolboy...
I use my ebt to buy bitcoin. So I support both.
You must just be wet to the knees having the opportunity to ignorantly shill your BS all over Bitcoin twice in one week XenoWTFrog...
Failed the litmus test also (2 planes, 3 buildings ...and, unlike Bitcoin, defies the laws of Mathematics).
Prob's to ZH for letting it soil the comments on these articles as it demonstrates more openness than just about any Government currently in existance. =/
@XenoFrog
So what you're saying is anything that is valuable is set upon by scammers and con artists? Yes, you're quite right, just like gold has scammers putting tungsten inside, bitcoin has people trying to trick others to obtain more bitcoins. I think you'll find the same situation occuring with US Dollars, Yen, and many other currencies.
As for your suggestion that people who have lost bitcoins will immediately turn around to scam other people, I have no basis to believe this. If you have some proof, that would be useful to the discussion.
Does this mean when a trader has a bad day in the E-Mini he goes and robs someone? I certainly hope not.
rational people like you that don't even understand the underlying basis of anonymity and liberty and that they go hand in hand with a crytographic currency like bitcoin. You're "rational" mind will only realize it when it is too late and the gov. has cut you off from the teet!
you should go to the fox news boards tadpole where you will find like rational minds that just love the hive borg mentality. just admit it, you hate bitcoin because you don't understand it. when you don't understand something you have to attack it
Frog is onto something here. For the last 100 years the federal reserve bank, that private cartel with the bank monopoly which our wisest forefathers warned us about, has been devaluing the federal reserve note like frog values brain cells. And because of this, now that we have an honest, sound currency, no one remembers how to use it. Excellent observation frog. We've been in the monetary wilderness so long the sound monies are foreign and unfamiliar. Frog. How will we kill Iraqi babies without a fiat currency? How will the individual amd corporate welfare queens survive such a sudden and brutal adoption of sound money? Will the children of the dc mob have to pay back their student loans under a honest money bitcoin system? Oh the horror.
Quinvarius said, "Find a way to buy gold with your bitcoin."
http://www.goldsilverbitcoin.com/
Never used them, caveat emptor..
This article has some interesting points, but the last bullet item glosses over the "hack attack," which if I recall correctly was outright theft of people's account balances. Not saying Bitcoin isn't worth the enthusiasm, but that factoid should be out there in the context of "hacking."
This is an interesting blog on Bitcoin privacy:
http://anonymity-in-bitcoin.blogspot.com/2011/07/bitcoin-is-not-anonymous.html
@Z`
You're technically correct that bitcoin isn't fully anonymous out of the 'box'. There are steps to take to make it more so. Just like safe sex, you have to practice safe bitcoining :)
The system as it exists right now does provide much more privacy protection than any other financial network.
Thanks for the reply TT, I appreciate it. I didn't write that blog... just found it in my search for more info on Bitcoin, and thought it pertinent info for the Bitcoin discussion.
The story on the ATM earlier this week...
I got the impression you BUY with cash these bitcoins but can you exchange bitcoins FOR cash or bullion anywhere?
With a hat-tip to ZH commenter "Half_a_Billion..", gold bullion can be purchased at http://coinabul.com/
Places that accept Bitcoins: https://www.spendbitcoins.com/places
In order to convert them back into real money, you have to use one of the online exchanges and trust them to not steal it. These are places that have been "hacked" in the past and lots of people were fleeced.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Mahatma Gandhi
I guess you are at the attack stage eh gov. troll?
you just can't stand the fact that there are people out there who have broken free of the federal reserve system to live in true anonymity. no slimeballs like you watching their every financial transaction. can't have fianncial anonymity or freedom can we? then the terrorists would win wouldn't they. you probably think that our governement was brought to its knees by a bunch of bearded Muslims living in caves don't you.
"...you probably think that our governement was brought to its knees by a bunch of bearded Muslims living in caves don't you."
As a matter of fact, she does as is evidenced by past psycho-shill-dom in 9/11 discussions. Hence the reason anything this avatar of idiocy posts is completely and utterly worthless at best. Never mind the blunt instruments that up vote this nonsense...
Suppose tomorrow you find out that 10 of the most trusted people you know offer to sell and buy bitcoins. Would that make you rethink Bitcoin?
Do you know of any inherent aspect of Bitcoin that shows any sign of maliciousness or immorality or dishonesty or secrecy? If so, please specify. Or is there any essential information about Bitcoin that you can't easily get from a public source? Or is there anything essential to Bitcoin that for whatever other reason you can't judge whether there might be something wrong with it? Please do ask yourself these questions!
not my bullion.
Bitcoins moving to a silver standard lol
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoE8nAOEMIa7dExCSk5BX3E0TkV...
Alternative currencies are part of the answer. The amount of vitriol is surprising.
The amount of virtiol is surprising.
If they were informed questions, that would be one thing. If they were simply ignorant and scared, that would be another....
But these comments are both ignorant and arrogant, a very ugly combination.
"But these comments are both ignorant and arrogant"
They are neither. They are branding. It is even uglier than you suggest.
Yeah, you may be right.
fuu ~ you don't totally get it here...
~~~
There IS NO COMPREHENSIVE SOLUTION [based on history ~ & operational mechanics of humankind]... Therefore ~ it's NOT vitriol [against the sworn enlistees]... Intead ~ it's more like... SHOW ME how dedicated you are...
Dude I specified a part of the answer. There is no silver bullet slam dunk touch down solution. Nitpick my thong.
There is obvious overlap to the reasoning behind owning metals as an alternate currency and bitcoins.
Agreed... But this argument SHOULD NOT devolve into 'camps' [read comment above]
~~~
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-28/bitcoin-your-thoughts#comment-3288311
Admiral that ship has sailed.
It's late & you don't have to answer me now, but, HOW HAS THAT SHIP SAILED?
~~~
There are people that say all the mined gold on earth couldn't support the notional value of asset prices... Bitcoins are a mere fraction of that...
Assuming the UNDENIABLE vigor with which the 'ELITE' expend energy to maintain asset bubbles... How can yo entertain this as a reality?... &... assuming the possible DESTRUCTION o the elite class [& all the ramifications which would naturally ensue ~ OSTENSIBLY, a plunge back into the DARK AGES]... How does 'ELECTRONICALLY STORED' wealth survive?
Entertain me Einstein...
It devolved into camps months ago.
There aren't enough dollars to support the notional value of asset prices, what's your point?
There's not enough ANYTHING to support the notional value of asset prices...
~~~
That's my point...
[yeah ~ so lets get me some bitcoins which are lowest on the totem pole] ~ that oughtaa work...
Bitcoin = JDS Uniphase [& company]
~~~
You can't prove me wrong until it's all over... Which will easily be accounted for when the "ON A LONG ENOUGH TIMELINE..." concept kicks in...
@francis_sawyer
That is a wonderful bit of circular logic, truly. Do you always employ hindsight when judging new innovations? It must be a very difficult road you're on.
above all a decentralized monetary system like bitcoin is essential. the people have had enough of these criminal clowns monkeying around with our lives. a central bank is part of the bolshevik (jew) communist manifesto along with a "progressive" income tax. go figure. they are both the bane of the common man today.
I don't see why you would buy that...
it's expensive for... well you don't even get a paper for it.
Stick to gold and silver because if you need to trade, not everybody you'll meet will be a internet nerd who has those.
The adoption curve of bitcoin has been like nothing so much as that of the Internet itself.
Your response is circa 1994-1995 ... most reasonable people were saying stick to AOL for email, and of course, never buy anything on the Internet.
This is a rhetorical trick. Lacking legitimacy, the bitcoiner will hold up examples of positive change "proving" that bitcoin will be positive too even though there is no relation between them. Pets.com was the next best thing at one point too. Not all change is inherantly good, or profitable.
> Lacking legitimacy
$33 a bitcoin is pretty legit.
Really? because it was $5 a little while ago. Before that, it was $28... sure sounds like a great currency. Nothing like huge swings in "value" to create confidence in those who are expected to use it.
> Nothing like huge swings in "value" to create confidence in those who are expected to use it.
I've been using it for two years. I'm richer now than I was two years ago in physical metals, cash and btc value, even with the massive btc crash of 2011. My new wealth is due to Bitcoin and its all out of the purview of any government or regulatory agency. I suspect I'm not the only early adopter than can make that claim.
Let it keep swinging.
I may not support or even understand Bitcoin as a transactional currency, but I would defend to the death your right to voluntarily use it with others so inclined.
Compare that to the US feral government's attitude towards those desiring to use gold and/or silver as a medium of exchange in competition with their dollar. Monopolies hate competition, and those enforced at the point of a gun hate (and fear) competition the most.
> I would defend to the death your right to voluntarily use it with others so inclined.
As I'd do for you in whatever method of voluntary trade you choose to conduct.
sure you are.
Keep it up, troll. bitcoin deserves the publicity.
nothing like huge swings in value with the usd eh? for instance it has lost 99% of its value since the inception of the federal reserve system. The only thing that has managed to give the FRN value is periodic deflationary collapses like we saw in 1929-1943 sounds like a real store of value doesn't it gov. shithead? how bout the fact that the federal reserve note has lost 62.5% of its value against BTC just this year. people know a good thing when they see it. and for your info BTC hit $34.51/BTC today. A new all time high eclipsing the previous wave 1 high of $31.90/BTC. FRN have no value other than having the slave labor of the american middle class. anonymity is truly priceless when dealing with a tyranical gov.....that wants to track your every move and yet keep all of its dealings opaque. quite the doublestandard. but, gov.(federal reserve) sock puppets are used to double standards aren't they? do as I say, not as I do. You probably voted for obama and drive a prius and think you are saving the world
@XenoFrog
Not all change is good, but bitcoin has a decent chance for being a force of good. If you use bitcoin, I can't tell you not to spend it. I can't prevent you from using it by shutting down your bitcoin client. I can't gang up on you and tell everyone else to not allow your bitcoin transaction to be put through the network. That is true monetary freedom.
And I think it is overdue.
That from a student of rhetoric, with failing grades worn as a badge of honor.
@Haole
Due to the trend of people replying to posts automatically, I'm not sure if you mean that for me. If you did, I'd appreciate elaboration.
Thanks.
Certainly not TT, sorry for any confusion. It was directed at this stunned cunt that calls itself XenoFrog.
One thing I dislike about the comment section at ZH is the way it is visually structured on the pages, almost impossible to keep comments and replies to them straight sometimes.
Blockchain.info/charts
The charts scream legitimate. Or is that a rhetorical trick as well?
i have no problem with bitcoin. i wish you luck. I am too far down the rabbit hole to trust anything that I don't have access too. But it seems to me that all forms of alternative currencies are people using a similar mindset.
@fonzannoon
I respect that. If you're uncomfortable then it isn't for you. My attraction to it is not just the freedom of it, the barriers of entry are extremely low as well.
I think both alternative currencies, precious metals and bitcoin, are great weapons against tyranny.
I agree many people wont be able to transact in btc. the typical walmartian watching honey booboo probably dont have btc.
But they probably dont possess PMs either.
PMs may be better for trade. Btc are better for evading capital controls.
PMs may be more tangible, Btc don't increase the weight of my thumbdrive no matter how many I load on it. Carried any PMs out of country recently?
Incidently, no F-16 ever made a carrier landing.
Au & Ag aren't susceptible to the ubiquitous network outage. You can't bank on perpetual network connectivity.
Ag & Au are susceptible to capital gains tax, customs reporting, export limits, and until 1971 US citizens couldnt even own gold. On the other hand I can carry an encrypted thumb drive anywhere I please. You cant bank on big brother not coming for your PMs or claiming a share.
Edit: you're correct... however I am banking on networks outlasting big bro.
how would i solve the problem of unifying all currencies into one unit. i would create bitcoin. at first i would let the system run free as a platform for anonymous worldwide trade for any commodity wanting to be traded(except maybe sex, at least, real sex. virtual sex would be no problem). that would attract a critical mass of users that would serve as bait for other, more mainstream users. the first users would be rewarded with real asset gains to keep them from quitting as more and more people join. eventually the new currency will reach a critical mass that has become the "necessary" medium of exchange for enough people that the most reluctant will be drawn in because of the revenue gains in business and the expression of choice it provides from around the world. at this point .gov begins to stealthily impose their interests on behalf of the banks and megacorps and their own security interests to track all the financial transactions going on in bitcoins and by whom. the game is complete. the facebook of worldwide finance has been created and the world uses one currency.
so, yes, invest now. you will be rewarded. i just talked myself into it. just beware of the end game.
Yes the sex trade with BTC. I can see it now:
Put your dongle in my port...nobody makes me feel zeros and ones like you do. If this external drive housing is a rockin, don't come a knockin.
I really wish you weren't right.
I'd agree with you but for one point: those prone to the disease of centralization would never think to create Bitcoin. It was created as an experimental defense against centralizing influences. It can't be centralized without destroying it.
rrrrriiiiiiggggghhhhhttttt
where's XenoFrog today?
Missed you too, babydoll.
I hope you bought some bitcoins at $5 or even $10.
No because I have a functioning human brain. I bet you bought your bitcoins the last time they were in the 20s and are just now regaining what you think is your investment. Prepare for the next crash it'll be a doosy.
> I have a functioning human brain
Citation needed.
I've had no problem facing down the mob of bitcoiners sent over here to try and find new investors for their scams.
Your batting average of 0.000% with regard to Bitcoin is impressive, I have to agree.
@XenoFrog
I find it interesting that your tactics center around this belief that we need people to 'invest'. I've personally handed out bitcoins to other people when they've asked, not demanded that they log on to an exchange and buy some. Its pretty much the definition of anti-ponzi.
Bitcoin users want people to understand the system before they get involved, and have no problem answering questions from new users.
1Cg7nVC5BnhwJv5SZq4m1RqSysUDG7C9LU
Sent 0.01337 to you, should confirm soon :)
w00t
^This guy is a straight up gentlemen of these interwebz.
Let's pay it forward...
ZH comment thread pyramid scheme. Next ZH nerd to post a public addy gets .01337*2... any takers for the free moneyz???
All you gotta do is give out .01337 to someone else, they confirm, and I'll send you double your investment. I'll even kick some in for the guy who confirms recieving.
No thanks, I'm trying to raise enough to buy an ounce of silver (thereby demonstrating both value in Bitcoin for transactions and Ag for a store of wealth over "fiat" ). :)
Stil open for business? 1F2vaLqrgCjxjhK4bYBdFnzAmuaSigsemp
No problem.
Sent, should get the first confirm soon.
0.01337 BTC received, nice donation with a l33t number thanks :D
you are raising on a busted flush bitch. Go troll somewhere else on the taxpayers dime! I wonder if you have a two functioning brain cells, let alone an integrated brain you make such fallacious arguments. everything that goes up in value is a scam and a ponzi scheme, so BTC must be a scam. what a simpleton. you should ask for a refund at your gov. indoctrination center. you look like a grad student in a gov. lab. getting your gov. welfare check to suck up to your "advisor". indentured servant
a bit paranoid are we tadpole? You kind of have an inflated sense of self don't you think? you are a legend in your own mind arent you tadpole. The mob of bitcoiners are actually sentient, thoughtful human beings who have had enough of people like you defending the status quo which has screwed us all over for far too long. get a life frog lady!
I don't think you are the best judge of that. kind of presumptuos don't you think. when you can tell me how bitcoin actually works then I might tend to agree. you're level of ignorance is simply astounding and actually bodes quite well for BTC if you are the typical "investor" out there. the crowd only realizes the trend when it is too late and has run its course
are you sure that you aren't a mutant cross with a xenopus brain. that's why you aren't making any sense isn't it. you are a test tube human/frog aren't you tadpole? you should go to the tadpole boards on the internet as you obviously aren't suited to the big wide ocean of ideas of zerohedge and a complex monetary system like bitcoin now are you? poor thing
I like the idea of an idenpendent currency, but in fleeing the fiat money system, people are jumping into a pool of money that is purely supply/demand with no asset value whatsoever. Moreover, it is vulnerable to some new discovery about how to create Bitcoins and if that happens instantly the currency will be inflated and its value erorded or destroyed.
@proLiberty
Your concern about counterfeiting is valid, as it plagues currencies and precious metals alike. I won't get into the technical description of how bitcoin does it, but I will state that the bitcoin protocol has never been compromised to allow that scenario.
Usually when you see people stating claims of fake bitcoins, it is because some web site operator stored balance numbers in a database, and that is what got hacked, not the bitcoin system itself.
impossible to counterfeit bitcoins as it is a decentralized currency where everyone is a node on the network with a complete ledger of all transactions/wallets that have ever taken place. If someone tried to introduce a counterfeit bitcoin into the network it would immediately be detected. essentially bitcoin mining is a self referential operation where the miners are rewarded for electronic work that they perform with bitcoin and part of the work they perform is verification/confirmation of bitcoin transactions going back to the birth of the peer to peer bitcoin network. with a crytographic algorithm overlay, it becomes pretty impervious to hacking or counterfeiting unless someone were to corner 50% of the mining capacity
" unless someone were to corner 50% of the mining capacity"
To add some perspective to this; If all of googles servers, all~40 petaflops worth, were redirected to the bitcoin network, google would have less than a third of the current network hashing power.
Bitcoins will go up until COMEX implement a future market contract for it ...
Tyler, when are you and Mr. Banzai going to post Bitcoin addresses?
The term, "Jump the shark" springs to mind.
No doubt.
Between this and the girl trader, it leaves me scratching my head.
Here are the only reasons for not basing national currencies upon Bitcoin: (1)Coups/ wars, and (2)theft/ data loss.
Other than that, national currency based on Bitcoin would be superior in every way. Consider:
"Money is about numbers, and trust. If there wasn’t an issue of trust, a very simple decentralized system based on numbers alone could be devised.
As an example, assume someone goes into a store to buy a can of soda. At the front counter, the customer pulls out his ledger book, crosses out his old cash balance, and writes in a number $1.25 lower. The clerk at the counter takes the store’s ledger book, crosses out the store’s old cash balance, and writes in a number $1.25 higher.
Remarkably, no physical or electronic money changes hands.
In this system a decision had been made that the government would no longer be involved with creating or managing the country’s money, and that the banks would be closed. Individuals added their final bank statement balances to their cash on hand, and this was their starting cash going forward. Now that they had recorded their balances, they threw out their old physical cash and bank statements.
The traditional vessels for money are of no use and have fallen away: paper money, coins, bank accounts, and even gold. All that remains are numbers, which when added together for the system as a whole remains unchanging, allowing them to retain their value. How much of this simple decentralized system can we retain, and still satisfy the real world’s need for trust?..."
[My blog then shows how Bitcoin can be modified into a national Bitcoin model to become the ideal national currency.]
http://pieeconomics.blogspot.com/p/title.html
Note: There will always still be a need for gold; the risk of coups/ wars can never be eliminated.
"Bitcoin ‘Money supply’ growth is capped at a slow rate – far below its current levels of demand. That makes it prone to boom-bust cycles."
No, it doesn't. This is Digital Monetarism. The "Boom" and the "Bust" would be in refective value of OTHER currencies in relation to a fixed change in quantitiy over time of the Bitcoin.
AS time moves on, it will be most interesting to see if the Rate of Expansion of Production of "Real World Goods and Services" would produce Bitcoin Inflation or Bitcoin Deflation - not "Boom and Bust or Bubbles" but reflections of Production and restrictive laws (See Wanniski, "Crash of 1929" f'rinstance).
IF IF IF the Bitcoin PTB do not decide to inflate away their creation, we will have a very beautiful experiment to determine if Friedmanite Monetarism (Slow Linear Growth over long periods of time) actually provides the Basis for understanding the Fiscal Phenomenon of matching Say's Law with a Quantity of Money over time.
Beautiful!
CW