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"You Should Use Both" - How America's Internet Companies Are Handing Over Your Data To Uncle Sam

Tyler Durden's picture




 

In the aftermath of the PRISM spying scandal, the first and logical response was an expected one: lie. The president did it, and so did the various companies implicated in the biggest US surveillance scandal ever exposed. To wit:

  • Zuckerberg: "Facebook is not and has never been part of any program to give the US or any other government direct access to our servers."
  • Google CEO Larry Page: "We have not joined any program that would give the US government – or any other government – direct access to our servers."
  • Yahoo: "We do not provide the government with direct access to our servers, systems, or network."

One small problem: they are all lying.

The NYT explains just how the explicit handover of private customer data from Corporate Server X to NSA Server Y takes place.

The companies that negotiated with the government include Google, which owns YouTube; Microsoft, which owns Hotmail and Skype; Yahoo; Facebook; AOL; Apple; and Paltalk, according to one of the people briefed on the discussions. The companies were legally required to share the data under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. People briefed on the discussions spoke on the condition of anonymity because they are prohibited by law from discussing the content of FISA requests or even acknowledging their existence.

 

In at least two cases, at Google and Facebook, one of the plans discussed was to build separate, secure portals, like a digital version of the secure physical rooms that have long existed for classified information, in some instances on company servers. Through these online rooms, the government would request data, companies would deposit it and the government would retrieve it, people briefed on the discussions said.

 

...

 

Each of the nine companies said it had no knowledge of a government program providing officials with access to its servers, and drew a bright line between giving the government wholesale access to its servers to collect user data and giving them specific data in response to individual court orders. Each said it did not provide the government with full, indiscriminate access to its servers.

 

The companies said they do, however, comply with individual court orders, including under FISA. The negotiations, and the technical systems for sharing data with the government, fit in that category because they involve access to data under individual FISA requests. And in some cases, the data is transmitted to the government electronically, using a company’s servers.

 

The U.S. government does not have direct access or a ‘back door’ to the information stored in our data centers,” Google’s chief executive, Larry Page, and its chief legal officer, David Drummond, said in a statement on Friday. “We provide user data to governments only in accordance with the law.” Statements from Microsoft, Yahoo, Facebook, Apple, AOL and Paltalk made the same distinction.

 

But instead of adding a back door to their servers, the companies were essentially asked to erect a locked mailbox and give the government the key, people briefed on the negotiations said. Facebook, for instance, built such a system for requesting and sharing the information, they said.

 

The data shared in these ways, the people said, is shared after company lawyers have reviewed the FISA request according to company practice. It is not sent automatically or in bulk, and the government does not have full access to company servers. Instead, they said, it is a more secure and efficient way to hand over the data.

 

Tech companies might have also denied knowledge of the full scope of cooperation with national security officials because employees whose job it is to comply with FISA requests are not allowed to discuss the details even with others at the company, and in some cases have national security clearance, according to both a former senior government official and a lawyer representing a technology company.

And there you have it: backdoors, locked (and not so locked mailboxes), and internal corporate firewalls in which some employees know everything that is going on and are used as a Chinese Wall scapegoat by everyone else who was shocked there is snooping going on here, SHOCKED.

Oh, and if that was not enough, here it is straight from the horse's mouth. Via the Guardian:

The slide, below, details different methods of data collection under the FISA Amendment Act of 2008 (which was renewed in December 2012). It clearly distinguishes Prism, which involves data collection from servers, as distinct from four different programs involving data collection from "fiber cables and infrastructure as data flows past".

 

 

Essentially, the slide suggests that the NSA also collects some information under FAA702 from cable intercepts, but that process is distinct from Prism.

 

Analysts are encouraged to use both techniques of data gathering.

"You Should Use Both." You know: just in case only one is insufficient to make a mocker of all personal rights and civil liberties.

 

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Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:06 | 3637345 JJ McApe
JJ McApe's picture

i never trusted facebook, nor google.

I deleted my facebook account a long time ago, and i never use gmail or google accounts.

and if you think about it... the google search engine shows you only things that they allowed you to see :)

google also destroyed youtube, which has become a complete joke. very sad...

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 19:15 | 3637994 CaptainObvious
CaptainObvious's picture

I've never had a farcebook page, or a twitter account, or Reddit, or Tumblr.  They want to find out about me, they have to come here or spy on me in person, which I don't doubt that they do considering I post here.  Quick, focus the zoom lens on the spy drone, ya fuckers, whilst I drop my pants and give you the moon.

Sun, 06/09/2013 - 01:45 | 3638619 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

Talking on a landline at 730p, I happened to mention arthritis. 1005p get on my fav site and get banner ad for enrolling for experimental meds for arthritis paying $50 per day.

This is too much.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:06 | 3637346 tickhound
tickhound's picture

No worries.  Congress has been fully briefed.  Courts are monitoring the situation and providing oversight.

If this fails, our media will quickly expose any wrong-doings.

Check and balance.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:12 | 3637370 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

it's hard to check and balance when you can't even balance your checks

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:13 | 3637347 prains
prains's picture

"Patriot" Act _ has a wierd kinda ring to it

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:07 | 3637348 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

The key phrase being "direct access"...

Sounds like they're all reading the same memo from Uncle Scam's lawyers.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:29 | 3637417 object_orient
object_orient's picture

A bunch of amateurs reading from the government-provided talking points. Experienced liars know how to change the phrases a bit to make it less obvious.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:07 | 3637355 icanhasbailout
icanhasbailout's picture

I love how the corporate credibility is thrown under the bus in the name of propping up the fast-evaporating government credibility. Now everyone knows not to believe either the government OR Facebook, Google, etc.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:12 | 3637376 Encroaching Darkness
Encroaching Darkness's picture

Shame I can only give you one up arrow for that - it's worth at least ten.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:17 | 3637390 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

honor amongst thieves. When the shit hits the fan, the government will throw anyone under the bus. Hell they do that when there's just a breeze. I assume these corporate idiots know that. It will be interesting to watch as thing unravel.

Sun, 06/09/2013 - 01:51 | 3638623 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

Hells bell, want a real laff? Google driscolls berries or martek biosciences. You can go 42 pages in and get nothing but praises on both.
Martek is putting the synthetic DHA made with hexane into organic milk and baby formula.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:09 | 3637361 j.tennquist
j.tennquist's picture

Nobody in Washington has ever done anything wrong or improper, particularly President Drone-killer.

Any evidence to the contrary will activate the kill switch (still think it doesn't exist?)

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:09 | 3637362 desirdavenir
desirdavenir's picture

Sorry, but I don't think they're lying. They are not part of a programming that gives the govt direct access to their server. Of, this doesn't exclude being part of a programming giving direct access to all the data in and out of their servers, which for all purposes but propaganda is equivalent. Hey, maybe they have even turned on some weak or broken cryptography to ensure that the data is safe 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:17 | 3637389 j.tennquist
j.tennquist's picture

You don't think whom is lying?

The liars or those who are covering up for them??

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:15 | 3637531 desirdavenir
desirdavenir's picture

The writer of the article has written: "they are lying".

So who do you think I' referring to?

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 16:00 | 3637636 noless
noless's picture

You mean the three near identical public statements from three separate and competing entities? That doesn't ring any collusive bells for you?

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:10 | 3637365 Tsunami Wave
Tsunami Wave's picture

As much as I fucking hate this..... there will never be any action taken against this.  I haven't really seen this mentioned much on the cable network shows this saturday morning.  The coverup is in full spin now.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:10 | 3637367 Encroaching Darkness
Encroaching Darkness's picture

The reason the Internet was invented was to facilitate secure communications during wars, nuclear wars, pandemics, etc.

The reason the Internet was subverted to spy on everyone's communications was that it was so efficient .

If we had not decided to send our communications over the Internet, we would be much tougher to spy on.

But the Post Office will spy on you as well, the same as the phone companies, etc.

Osama ben Laden figured this out; that's why his couriers carried thumb drives from place to place. You might consider doing the same.

Or using encrypted CD's through the mail, if that works for you.

But if they can, they will spy on you. Super-paranoid control freaks with messianic complexes and missing consciences have to do this.

They simply cannot endure the thought that someone, somewhere might escape their "control".

When the Encroaching Darkness fully arrives, they will explode and implode with frustration. Once the servers go down, it will be very difficult to spy on people the way they are used to.

Expect overreactions, accordingly.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 19:23 | 3638004 SHRAGS
SHRAGS's picture

.

But if they can, they will spy on you. Super-paranoid control freaks with messianic complexes and missing consciences have to do this.

They simply cannot endure the thought that someone, somewhere might escape their "control".

 

Because they are terrified of US!  Losing control (and accumulated multi-generational wealth) is what they fear the most, hence the need to use every new technology to retain & extend the control grid

Bottom line, we terrify them, they actually fear us.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:15 | 3637372 Mototard at Large
Mototard at Large's picture

"Facebook is not and has never been part of any program to give the US or any other government direct access to our servers."

I suspect that Mr Zuckerberg is telling the "truth" in a Bill Clinton sort of way.  Note the use of the temr "direct access."  FB and the others all use this term in their statements.  In other words, the US Govt does not have direct access to the servers. Instead, it is likely that they have their intercept points either upstream or downstream from the feeds into the servers (or both).

As such, Mr Zuckerberger and the others can use the Bill Clinton defense later and say that the govt did not have DIRECT access.

Depends on your definition of access.

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:05 | 3637495 moneybots
moneybots's picture

Yes, one does not need direct access to someone's servers, if one has direct access to what is sent to the server.  

They call it plausable deniabilty.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 16:59 | 3637750 DollarMenu
DollarMenu's picture

Well, all the tin-foil sites have said from the get-go that Google and Facebook got their seed money from CIA and Mossad fronts.

So, it's only reasonable, on that assumption, to expect a government 'dividend' to be paid.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:56 | 3637858 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Exactly.  When CIA pays, what exactly do you think they are paying for?

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 21:41 | 3638223 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

But he will have direct access to the guillotine.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 21:52 | 3638259 ljag
ljag's picture

What r all u pussies worried about? NEVER underestimate the incompetence of our gov't. if u airmailed ur intentions to set off fireworks in that tunnel that connects WS to the Fed, they'd show up on the 4th eyes looking up into the skies....geesh!

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:12 | 3637373 moonstears
moonstears's picture

Yahoooo-oooo!!!!(wait...I have a Yahoo account...shit!)

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:12 | 3637375 Dareconomics
Dareconomics's picture

The implication embedded within the totality of all three statements is that the firms do give indirect access to the feds.

 

http://dareconomics.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/around-the-globe-06-08-2013/

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:13 | 3637377 Zola
Zola's picture

Whenever I read these articles, I keep thinking of all the brave men who died in WWII to defeat the nazis and the japanese. Their sacrifices will all have been in vain if this monster is resurrected right on US soil... Truly a tragedy.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:54 | 3637470 Widowmaker
Widowmaker's picture

Why don't you send a check to the Republican party.

You got EXACTLY what the Supreme Court (bought and paid for) decided with W and neo-con capitalism.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:23 | 3637545 Solarman
Solarman's picture

Why didn't the Dems kill it then.  Because like always, they want the same thing, but they get to blame the Republicans, and get what they wanted anyway.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:36 | 3637577 PiratePawpaw
PiratePawpaw's picture

I hate to break it to you; but whether you are being punched in the face by the Red fist or the Blue fist, you are still getting punched in the face by the same system.

But vote for the Blue one if it makes you feel better.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 16:06 | 3637650 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

It's hard to give up your heroes, that's why I don't have any.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:10 | 3637779 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

do you sleep better knowing you only have villains?

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 18:55 | 3637959 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

I cherish my villains.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 16:19 | 3637671 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Widowmaker

It's a tired, old topic on ZH, but haven't we generally agreed the Democrats and Republicans are opposite sides of the same coin.  I haven't seen either party shrink the size of government, set the conditions to create middle class jobs, or bust up the monopolies that contol finance and corporations in general.

If you have the money, the best return on investment, always, is to buy a politician. You think Obama opposes Keystone because of the environment ?  It certainly couldn't be because that old political geezer Buffet owns the BNSF would it ? Of course not.

"We are all crooks now" is the new motto. Acting for the good of the country is so yesterday.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 16:39 | 3637701 icanhasbailout
icanhasbailout's picture

Democrats and Republicans, concisely explained: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_penetration_dildo

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 18:33 | 3637919 Dr Benway
Dr Benway's picture

You should use both

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 19:19 | 3637997 CaptainObvious
CaptainObvious's picture

You, sir, are a dumbass.  Have not the events of this week shown you what a sham Red Team and Blue Team are?  I only regret that I can red you just once.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 20:06 | 3638059 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

What did that statement have to do with party?

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 18:10 | 3637883 logicalman
logicalman's picture

All wars are banker's wars.

Both sides in wars lose - only the bankers win.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 21:50 | 3638251 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

Sorry, but no solder in the history of the world has ever died for anything other than his fellow comrades who were also taken and thrown into the fray for the benefit of the war profiteers, banksters, pols and crats.

But then Smedley Butler said it most succinctly and best, "War is a racket."

Sun, 06/09/2013 - 06:17 | 3638724 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

Yes, Smedley knew it well, he made a good living from it. Guess what? He wasn't drafted.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:13 | 3637378 surf0766
surf0766's picture

Now if you don't believe this is ok then we gonna have a problem..

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:16 | 3637388 mofreedom
mofreedom's picture

i am directly angered by the commie morgan freeman.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:06 | 3637498 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Your problem is much more readily solved than mine.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:19 | 3637396 Kaiser Sousa
Kaiser Sousa's picture

Fuck the US government...
now mine that you bitch ass mother fuckers.....

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:20 | 3637398 phoolish
phoolish's picture

Direct Access, No.  Restriction and Evidence Free Indirect Access, At All Times.

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:21 | 3637399 NoelConfidence
NoelConfidence's picture

All of em are using the same statement  - "We have not joined any program that would give the US government – or any other government – direct access to our servers." 

 

Sounds a lot like 'Manchurian' Corporations to me -  

 

"(NAME) is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life."

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:01 | 3637491 0b1knob
0b1knob's picture

The key word in the statement is "direct".    Note that they don't deny any sort of access by the government.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:21 | 3637542 Solarman
Solarman's picture

Key word is joined.  They were ccompelled.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:24 | 3637406 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

Lying sacks of reprobate shit.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:27 | 3637409 moneybots
moneybots's picture

The Hits Just Keep on Coming

This is getting to be the umpteenth story on this general subject.

Everyone should just say hi NSA, when they greet someone on the phone or send an E-mail, since they will be listening in, violating our 4th amendment rights against warrantless search and seizure.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 19:23 | 3638002 CaptainObvious
CaptainObvious's picture

Heh. I should include in all future phone conversations, "And for those of you just joining in from the NSA Headquarters, today's topics of discussion will be what is for dinner, how the kids are doing, and just exactly what I want my wife to wear when I fuck her at precisely 11:30 PM tonight.  Oh, I'll be sure to leave the laptop with the functioning webcam open in front of the bed."

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:29 | 3637416 QE49er
QE49er's picture
As you can see, we've had our eye on you for some time now, Mr. Anderson.
Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:31 | 3637419 imapopulistnow
imapopulistnow's picture

The similarities in the wording of the denials is one of the scariest and most 1984-ish aspects of this latest episode. 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:32 | 3637420 Unprepared
Unprepared's picture

"We can spy on some people all the time, or spy on all the people some of the time, but we cannot.... oh, never mind!"

 

Uncle Big Brother.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:37 | 3637429 Unprepared
Unprepared's picture

Zuckerberg: "I did not have an intelligence affair with that agency alphabet soup... the NSA. I never told anybody to gather the information, not a single "like". These allegations are false, and I need to go back to work spying on the facebook users. Fuck you!" 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:39 | 3637432 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Hillary Clinton, Secretary of State: We are in an information war, and we are losing that war.

 

Rap News is always worth a look.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 21:20 | 3638171 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

You seem a tad behind the times; John Kerry is the Secretary of State.

Sun, 06/09/2013 - 14:57 | 3639481 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

A bit pedantic, but it's true so I'll green you. (She was SoS when she made those remarks, obviously).

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:42 | 3637433 ekm
ekm's picture

Summary of my observations:

 

1) Media (main stream or not) started wondering about this when Petraeus' emails were obtained by FBI......without warrant.

 

2) Fornication within military is nothing unusual and nobody bothers with it....until Petreaus.

 

3) Petreaus was downed due to Benghazi

 

4) If it weren't for Benghazi coverup, we wouldn't have known about IRS, AP or this which seems to me that Obama is leaking on purpose in order to distract attention from Benghazi.

 

Bottom line: It's all about Benghazi. Benghazi has been a relentless pest for 9 months already, particularly since Bob Woodward got involved.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:43 | 3637442 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

We've plenty of material to take down Hussein Obama and he just keeps digging.

The ability to reason doesn't seem to be an ability he has.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:45 | 3637446 ekm
ekm's picture

Times have changed compared to Nixon's.

 

People are far more willing to accept totalitarianism nowadays.

It's all about ACCEPTANCE from the people.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:44 | 3637839 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

Some are, for sure.  Certainly, the ever-shifting mirage of marxist illusions can be appealing to the gullible and the ignorant.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:49 | 3637456 ekm
ekm's picture

An animal in danger doesn't use logic. Logic is mortal in that setting.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:13 | 3637522 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

you still think we are down to days before somegthing pops ekm? Or is this just what it's going to be.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:30 | 3637558 ekm
ekm's picture

Yes. Situation is handled day by day.

 

Testing with dow hugely up and hugely down, even if market does not exist, makes it obvious, IMO.

 

Even China is being obligated to unwind commodities from financing schemes, since the real economy is a derivative of commodities.

 

The more this continues, the more commodities will be financialised, the more misery will ensue.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:34 | 3637566 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

what, in your opinion are they testing for, and why the day by day stuff? They know everything is hft now. All it takes is one headline to get all the algo's to sell in unison. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. Just do it.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:39 | 3637584 ekm
ekm's picture

Geo-stratetical. It takes a lot of reading to even start to put together a muddy structure.

Here's where information seems more like dis-information.

 

All wars are done over commodities and it will never change.

To put it differently, if the Holy Land were somewhere in the middle of Sahara, nobody would have cared whether jews wanted to live there or not, due to their tradition.

But the Holy Land is right in the middle of oil extraction and oil piping routes, hence Israel is the only reliable ally for the west in that area.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:49 | 3637607 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

You see this being about Israel and not Japan? Are they intertwined somehow?

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:50 | 3637611 ekm
ekm's picture

It was an example as to everything is about ..COMMODITIES.

Even Japan is about LNG, not inflation seeking. Inflation seeking is the propaganda.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:42 | 3637836 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

WWII had very little, if anything, to do with commodities.  Same for WWI.

The materialist interpretation of mankind's nature is very shallow and completely antithetical to most of the history of Western civilization.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 18:27 | 3637911 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Wars where both sides were financed by one group of international banksters are in a separate category.   You might want to read some Albert Pike or Mazzini.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 19:56 | 3638050 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

Aurel Kolnai's "The War Against the West" is the best dissection of German Naitonal Socialism that I've read.  Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom" provides a brief overview of the ideology of national socialism as well.

Whether its marxism waging war against the West or islam-ism waging war against the West, wars are mostly religious in nature.

The materialist (Marxist) interpretation of mankind's history and mankind's nature is incredibly shallow, at best.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 21:48 | 3638244 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Yeah, I'm sure the Ottomans took the key to the Silk Road and trade with the east, Constantinople, because it was a different religion...

Come on.  Religion is a pretext.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 19:25 | 3638007 ekm
ekm's picture

Incorrect. WW1 and 2 were everything and anything about commodities.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 16:00 | 3637624 ekm
ekm's picture

Different way of putting it.

It's like an ongoing war, where timing of battles is picked in secret.

 

QE is an international political decision, not economic one. This is obvious because repubs have not opposed it at all.

Revealing the timing of QE halting or even unwinding is equal to telling the enemy the time of your attack.


But it is obvious and attack will happen, which means QE will inevitably stop in order to stop commodity financialization.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:41 | 3637828 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

In Obama's case, he's basically a wilde beast that can't use logic whether in danger or not.  He's clearly stated that he wants to go Bulworth; we need to coax him out of the closet.

Affirmative action doth not intelligence make.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:41 | 3637435 lunaticfringe
lunaticfringe's picture

Obama is using this to evade responsibility. This prick makes Nixon look a grade schooler. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/07/us-government-special-privil...(editable):Position3

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:41 | 3637436 Joebloinvestor
Joebloinvestor's picture

Windtalkers is being revamped.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:42 | 3637438 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

Call them before Congress and put them under oath.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 16:24 | 3637678 machineh
machineh's picture

Yeah, that'll scare them!

Holder already was voted in contempt of Congress.

And he still gives them the finger every time he shows up there. Twats!

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:39 | 3637826 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

It'll scare the private sector, for sure.  Congress has power against citizens far moreso than the executive branch.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:42 | 3637440 seek
seek's picture

I'm starting to think the companies are being legally compelled to lie. We have documentation and evidence they're handing over data, and they're all denying it, and my guess this goes beyond them twisting semantics at a corporate level. I wonder when one of them will break ranks and actually say they're being threated with jail if they discuss the matter or acknowledge that it exists, even.

Regardless -- this is fascism, plain and simple and without hyperbole, as the government has the corp's backs, and the corps, the government's.

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:59 | 3637484 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Sure, because people with mega-million dollar public relations operations would never dream of spinning something in their favor by splitting hairs.

In order to be coerced, they have to not want to in the first place. How do you know it wasn't tit-for-tat agreement not to prosecute their own "domestic spying program"s?

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:34 | 3637567 seek
seek's picture

I suspect it has more to do with the $80B spy budget and less to do with their own spying, which is covered by the EULA of most of the providers anyway. Some of the PRISM suppliers are such tiny piss-ant companies it's doubtful they do any of their own spying, but I'm sure they'd love some taxpayer funded gravy.

The magnitude of this, and the sheer number of companies involved, goes beyond PR spin.

I think it's more likely they got the Qwest treatment, e.g, play along or we'll find something to send you to prison for.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:45 | 3637448 moneybots
moneybots's picture

The U.S. government does not have direct access or a ‘back door’ to the information stored in our data centers,” Google’s chief executive, Larry Page, and its chief legal officer, David Drummond, said in a statement on Friday.

And just why should i believe him?

There is that HUGE data center being built in Utah.  Even if he is telling the truth NOW, will it be the truth after that facility opens for surveillance?

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:45 | 3637449 BattlegroundEur...
BattlegroundEurope2011's picture

I wonder how the "Roasting" Obama was going to give the Chinese Premiere went?.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 16:12 | 3637664 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

"Belly funny President Obama.  What is that Amelican saying?  'Pot carring dee kettle brack'?"

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:47 | 3637452 vegas
vegas's picture

Welcome to Chalky's police state, where if you have noything to hide you shouldn't be worried; except if you don't happen to want to "save the children" and get your mind right with regards Mooooochelle's food initiative, give money to Goebbels propaganda arms, and of course worship Chalky himself. Can't wait until the average dumbshit in Amerika wakes up in 2014 and finds the IRS in his home wanting to know everything because it has to determine his family's "proper" health care coverage and price.

 

Donating to Chalky's Hope & Change - $50

Dinner and drinks with Mooooochelle  - $5,000

Watching the average dumbfuck Amerikan wake up in 2014 to his healthcare up 400% with lower coverage and finding he/she actually does live in a police state with no privacy and no rights with the old-dead-white guys-with slaves constitution absolutely dead -  Well, that will be priceless.

 

Will the last free person who goes John Galt please turn the lights off?

 

 

http://vegasxau.blogspot.com

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:56 | 3637477 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

In order to "go John Galt", you have to be John Galt; you'll never qualify.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:50 | 3637457 t0mmyBerg
t0mmyBerg's picture

If they are lying then they should have their tongues removed.  Like the priest in Immortals.  He did it to himself to avoid giving away the location of the high priestess to Hyperion I think.  No one that noble around these days.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:54 | 3637468 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Half-measures. No donut.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:20 | 3637794 lotsoffun
lotsoffun's picture

hey tommyberg.  get an education.  please. for the rest of us, not you.  comparing reality to 'it was like the priest in the immortals' means you spend your life watching tv and movies and then deciding how best to act.  life isn't 'like that time when/on'.  well - i guess it isn't for a few of us.

you look great in uniform.

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:50 | 3637458 franzpick
franzpick's picture

Unfortunately 'doing nothing wrong' no longer provides escape from the emerging prizm planet, but rather now entails joining GoBombEm's 'base'.  He is tearing America into 2 pieces, polarizing the citizenry into opposing factions, providing favors and benefits for his supporters, while suppressing  the 1st, 2nd, 4th and other amendment rights of his perceived opponents, and it's looking to me like the country that has been the land of opportunity for several centuries for foreign expatriots is quickly starting to resemble the oppressive regimes  from which our ancesters fled.

History may describe barry's contribution to America as 'refugee to refugee' in 4 generations.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 18:16 | 3637893 logicalman
logicalman's picture

The big problem is the people who get to decide what's 'WRONG'

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 19:30 | 3638015 CaptainObvious
CaptainObvious's picture

+1  These are the same fuckwits who get to decide what the definition of a "terrorist" is, and the same fuckwits who wield the fearsome weapon of an IRS audit against their opponents.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:50 | 3637459 Conman
Conman's picture

Notice they all came out to say they dont give "DIRECT ACCESS" to thier servers. They have taps in between which collects all the packets to and from the servers. This is about as good as direct access, except for SSL encrypted data.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:03 | 3637763 css1971
css1971's picture

Well they're going to have the encryption keys too, aren't they.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:53 | 3637464 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

"They did not take the data from our servers, it was zipped up and put on dropbox for them."

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:54 | 3637467 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

Notce how the first two use the word "program"? Is that coincidental?

Of course not.

The use of the words not part f any program is dliberate and calculated.

To admit otherwise would be poisonous to their businesses.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:55 | 3637472 All Out Of Bubblegum
All Out Of Bubblegum's picture

The ENNESSEIGH don't need to have direct access to anyone's servers if the signal on the fiber optic line on the way out is being split and a copy of the signal is being sent to Utah.

The slimy weasels all lie the exact same way.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:55 | 3637473 Barnaby
Barnaby's picture

Ah, double penetration. I gotta hand it to 'em, the NSA's got style.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 14:57 | 3637479 LuchadorChumba
LuchadorChumba's picture

Mi luchador Sun Tzu Flung Poo says defeat su enemia without engaging in battle.  Both Sun Tzu and Hegel Bagel luchadors decided to team up for a serious tagteam experience on the public, uh, I mean the audience.

Si, I finally decided to allow the multitudes know that muy feo me is listening to them all the time…so better watch out and feel some real muy fuerte FEAR!! Aye aye aye, better not discuss your dilemma, I might just be eavesdropping! I want the ringside audience to piss their pantalones.

Tell you a secret… shhhh, our algorhythms suck and we are not omnipotent, omniscient, or omnivorous. We want to believe we are, but we’d rather have YOU believe. We talk about how the loose anagram of NAZI has a great acronym and how their 'itchy-lon' listens in to everything you say, we have backdoors into all your computers, tracking devices on your phones, convex lens detectors that allow us to see what you are looking or aiming at, and soon to announce implants that should really make you shiver. We know that our grande muscles, no matter how we market them, are also our weaknesses. That’s the offensive jockstrap that you smell. Do you feel it tightening around su cabesa, your head as you read? We know that most the dummies know that we have this capability. It’s not a secret. We know, that if you had the right DNA, you’d automatically consider feeding us a ton of horseshit , cangada – then, we wouldn’t know what to do (like some of you did in the Vietnam debacle when you registered fake draftees). But no, what a disappointment you’ve been. We’re not even entertained anymore. All we have to do is make it inconvenient for you to resist, and oye, you show us your exposed estomago. We know you hate inconvenience. Chinga! You could walk away from the ring on your cloven hoofs today!

Viva El Luchador!

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:00 | 3637483 suicidalpsychologist
suicidalpsychologist's picture

of course those at the top of the pyramid control everything, but what s the problem; if you dont do anything dumb you have no problems, in fact most of these elites use the informations only to sell you the shit they own and produce 99.99% of the time.

Now if you re dumb enough to let your personal informations on the internet -facebook-, what can i say. All of this is obvious and logical  no need to blow a gasket about it.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:31 | 3637537 tickhound
tickhound's picture

"in fact most of these elites use the informations only to sell you the shit they own and produce 99.99% of the time." 

Ah yes... ye ole borrow, spend, and consume rinse and repeat at ANY COST defense of the status quo.  FYI, the trend is not in your favor.   

Wasn't it the "IF YOU'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG YOU HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT" crowd that brought us the Patriot Act?

"All of this is obvious and logical..." 

It always is to you people.

Cheers to your clogged INBOX and MAILBOX full of 99.99% waste and shit.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:01 | 3637490 damage
damage's picture

Tyler, I wish you wouldn't cater quite so much to the retard level conspiracy nuts. Of course this whole PRISM shit is horrible and the people involved should be tried as criminals, however to claim that all of these companies are definitely lying because of some ancient NSA slide that got leaked is taking it a little bit too far. That is hardly "proof".

http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/001040.html

 

I think Lauren has the sane opinion  about this. I don't think google is lying about this. Who knows how old that NSA slide is? I think they wanted direct access but instead what they got is a unified system for handling subpoena'd info. Still horrible shit, but not "direct access" like that dubious slide shows.

They do probably have direct access to sniff selected traffic they want to from major internet exchanges though, including the ones google is hooked up to. I think that's what's really happening.

 

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:07 | 3637502 damage
damage's picture

Also I should add the NYT article doesn't exactly backup your conclusion either Tyler. It's just like they said in their press releases. They only hand over stuff that's been subpoena'd (exactly as google was implying in their press release), so to say they are "lying" is stretching it a lot.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:12 | 3637521 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Let me guess: Google going to Bilderberg is "conspiracy nut" territory as well, right? If you have no idea who runs the NYT and their angles, then you're fodder. You'll probably be surprised at the entire "retro editing" that goes on with their stories, so that the reality of 2013 is back-traced and history is changed to match the current political climate.

 

And yes, I think you're a Muppet.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:20 | 3637540 damage
damage's picture

Of course you would accuse me of being a muppet, because you have no logical rebuttal. I'm just "disinfo", amirite? I'm also sure  you didn't actually read or think through anything I just said. You just reacted emotionally to it instead of thinking this through rationally.

Of course conspiracies happen, but I think Public Choice Theory has much more scientific methods for explaining why much of this sort of thing happens. Also there's a difference between understanding conspiracies happen, and being a retard level "conspiracy nut" such as yourself.

Aurora Ex Machine, I am interested in the truth, not slinging unsubstantiated accusations which honestly are borderline libel.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:30 | 3637555 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

I see you're new here.

I'll be nice, since you've stated an interest in Truth - I strongly suggest doing a GREP on some of my posts, then think if you want to play, and if you reply, it's on. If you think any of my responses are driven purely by emotion or logic, or should be read entirely at face value, you're in for a shocker of a night. I don't play in your 2D world.

Hint: Public Choice Theory is 101 1st year stuff. The fact you've just called me a "conspiracy nut" is showing you've exactly zero insight into the way the world works, and the fact you've decided to go with libel (USA or UK Law here? Queensberry rules?) as an online threat shows you just how badly you're going to get spanked.

 

This shit happens because of Power. Explain to me how the tech industry is not part of the Power structure of the USA, and how you imagine that the US government would not be involved with this. I'm all ears.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:40 | 3637587 damage
damage's picture

New here? Why don't you check how old my account is by clicking on my handle before you make that accusation. Your account is only 30 weeks old!

Notice all of your responses to me are filled with more baselss accusations. Calling me a muppet, disinfo or w/e, and now accusing me of being "new" here, when there aren't many accounts on ZH older than mine. Notice you never actually address any of my arguments, you just resort to ad hominem because you can't think for yourself or actually make a real argument. You just keep attacking me personally. Eat shit.

You're as bad as the type of person who thinks the government can solve all of our problems.

As far as libel, I wasn't threatening you or threatening anyone. I'm just saying there's no good evidence to backup that Google ever lied in their press release/blog on this matter, and that the NYT article says pretty much exactly what Google's statements on this matter have implied.

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:49 | 3637604 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

It was snark, you idiot. As bad as calling me a conspiracy nut.

 

SEC. 216. MODIFICATION OF AUTHORITIES RELATING TO USE OF PEN REGISTERS AND TRAP AND TRACE DEVICES.

3) NONDISCLOSURE REQUIREMENTS- Section 3123(d)(2) of title 18, United States Code, is amended-- 

(A) by inserting `or other facility' after `the line'; and

(B) by striking `, or who has been ordered by the court' and inserting `or applied, or who is obligated by the order'.

SEC. 225. IMMUNITY FOR COMPLIANCE WITH FISA WIRETAP.

Section 105 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1805) is amended by inserting after subsection (g) the following:

`(h) No cause of action shall lie in any court against any provider of a wire or electronic communication service, landlord, custodian, or other person (including any officer, employee, agent, or other specified person thereof) that furnishes any information, facilities, or technical assistance in accordance with a court order or request for emergency assistance under this Act.'. [Source]

 

Sorry, did you have a proper argument yet? You're a bit slow, I already told you what I was going to say.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:52 | 3637615 damage
damage's picture

None of this goes against anything I claimed. Again you didn't even bother to read what I said.

No shit regarding the FISA stuff. I'm saying Google never lied about this. You've yet to explain how Google ever claimed or ever implied they didn't respond to FISA requests. They implied quite clearly in their response regarding this matter they do.

How did Google lie about this in their press release/blog? The type of system described by the NYT article is exactly what I gathered was implied by Google's press release. I don't appreciate people who go around calling people liars when they've got no evidence this is true and all the evidence seems to suggest they are being as forthcoming as they possibly are able to be.

 

Also nice "save" there by claiming "snark" re: your "newbie" comments.

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:57 | 3637621 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Oh dear, you went and played the "Conspiracy Nut" line. When you have price schemes for data retrieval, it's pretty much part of your business. Try reading the Patriot Act sometime, clauses 210 - 240; you'll note that admitting anything is illegal. <Me>

 

Hint: Don't be such a fucking slow boring piece of crap. Tyler is saying they're lying because they're legally obliged to. You're a bit slow; you can't even read what I wrote. This isn't about the usual request pathways, AT ALL, and your attempts to move the discussion onto the ones that Google publishes is obvious Forum Sliding.

 

And yes, I really did get what you said: the problem is, it has nothing to do with what we're discussing, and you know it. "Conspiracy Nut" - trolololol. Fucking Amateur.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 16:03 | 3637644 damage
damage's picture

They're legally obliged to not disclose info about the specifics, not legally obliged to "lie".

Anyway at this point it's obvious you're a /pol/tard "it's habbening" faggot and there's no point in arguing with you because you're incapable of reasonable discussion. You've yet to show me how Google lied at all in their press release. You just keep pasting stuff that's public info and doesn't contradict anything Google has said at all.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 16:26 | 3637666 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Your lack of Law training is showing. They are absolutely required to deny the existence of said mechanisms - it's right there for you in US Law (hint: read the sections that the Patriot Act is modifying, or do you need some more schooling?). And, I did warn you about not reading me in 2D - well done for outing yourself as a 4chan "special little elf" who is paid to forum slide.

As for "public info", I thought you had no Google Stock, and no involvement with Google? How would you have any other information, unless you were the counter-party?

 

Hint: Never been to /pol/ in my life; only scrubbers like you do. It's called semantic baiting, and you bit. I just GREP'd all of your comments, and you're fascinatingly low on actual content, and fascinatingly high on poo-pooing / negative spin. You fucking LOVE pre-1935 Canadian Banks.

 

As for 3 years old - your first comment is 01/12/2013. Mine is logged at 12/25/2012. So, weird. Guessing that's an oddity of the archiving system or something? And you also assume this is my first account - again, a sign of a linear thinker. Please post more on pre 1935 Canadian Banks though, your 7 posts on the subject were fucking fascinating.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 16:28 | 3637681 damage
damage's picture

Again you're pretty much attacking a strawman. As I said I already know they have sniffer devices at all major internet traffic exchange points. But at least at google the government does not have "direct access" to them, so I don't see what's so horribly misleading about Google's press release regarding FISA requests. As far as knowing the law I'm sure I'm probably as well versed as you are if not better.

The rest of your post is pretty much entirely ad hominem and strawmen yet again. *shrug*

I don't comment much lately, as I'm sick of your type who have invaded the ZH comment section. The vast majority of my comments would be on the archive server which don't show up when you search on the main server. Also the signal to noise ratio on ZH has been getting progressively worse over the years, so I don't follow it nearly as much as I did 2-3 years ago.

 

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 16:55 | 3637699 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Three things:

#1 Your level of single reading is almost Aspergers like, fascinating. You have seemingly no idea how to read between linear content. It's amazing. In a thread about how the NSA is reading everything you slog on, willfully writing tech manual level comments with no depth to them. It's fucking ART.

#2 Oooh, Mummy! You're running to the skirts of "ad hominem" and "strawmen" when you accused me of being from 4chan? Dude, learn to parse mirror-sarcasm - if you accuse someone of being from /pol/ you're going to get a response in the style of /pol/. Jesus you're slow.

#3 You've totally missed the point; "direct access" is a total bullshit line used by all of the major tech companies. Did you miss that? Even your Hallowed space of HN has reported that little tit-bit.

And after so many little replies, you said nothing more than your shitty little initial comment. After claiming I "don't understand" it. No, I really did: I just find you fucking tedious. My type? You don't even know what "my type" is.

 

You are the rot that is America: limited, slow, linear thinking and with a stupid faith in the Law or the Systems you inhabit. You're food. But please, post more on pre-1935 Canada, that shit is amazingly interesting. Especially since Canada's National Banks are paradigms of sensible lending....

 

OH HOLY FUCKING SHIT LOOK AT THAT HOUSING BUBBLE, SORRY SORRY SORRY *boom*

 

p.s. Hint - Canada didn't have a central bank before 1935 because of the fucking British Empire (which DID have a central Bank and which DID secure Canada's banking system. You're a fucking ignorant tool.)

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 16:56 | 3637742 damage
damage's picture

Why do you have multiple accounts btw?

What does the housing bubble have anything to do with this? What does the pre-1935 Canadian banking system which was quite successful without the need of a central bank have anything to do with this?

Your "type" is exceedingly transparent.

Either a troll or an angry kid in his mother's basement who thinks he's fighting the good fight by "dissimenating info" (lol) on the internets. You aren't interested in any real debate at all. You're only capable of accusing people of being "muppets", "disinfo", and general attacks on your opponent's character and intelligence.

As far as the ad hoinem/insult thing goes. Yeah I started adding in some insults after you started insulting me. But I'm not mostly basing my arguments in attacking your character (at least not at first). You on the otherhand have been basing your arguments on almost entirely ad hominem and strawmen from the very beginning, "attack the messenger, not the message", type shit, as evidenced by you bringing up other opinions I hold and erecting strawman after strawman which you then proceed to swipe at as if you're actually winning anything.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:03 | 3637755 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

It's all a mirror, DERP. You're still stuck in 2D land, so we'll continue this Dance Macabre until you get it.

 

Please answer why you think Canada didn't have a central bank pre-1935 when the BOE was their security?

January to June

[1935 Canada]

 

If you missed it: 1935 was when Canada was allowed by the Empire to run it's OWN national central bank. Before that, it was under the auspices of the BOE. Please, since you've posted 7 links, repeatedly insulted people about "knowing nothing about banking" and so on, explain this. Did the BOE secure Canadian reserves or not pre-1935?  

Simple question, I'll want sources.

 

 

Looks to me like your shitty CATO links have totally blinded you to the realities of Banking in the British Fucking Empire. But please, as I live in a basement, enlighten me. (And I don't have multiple accounts, nice try though)

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:11 | 3637781 damage
damage's picture

Well, I would bother going to the trouble if you actually bothered to cite sources which helped prove that the BoE was their "security". But in this case the onus would be on you, not me. It's not my duty to disprove you, it's your duty to prove your claims about the BoE being their security, and the BoE basically owned/ruled them as you seem to be implying I think?

Where's your proof that the BoE was backing up the Canadian banking system? It seems like when a Canadian bank failed it was handled by Canada, not by England. Even if this was the case I'm not sure that it invalidates any of my previous arguments regarding the banking system in Canada before they instituted a central bank of their own in 1935.

Do you seriously believe that in a proper debate it's up to your opponents to disprove you and not the other way around? Seriously? You've now proven without a doubt you can't be reasoned with and I'm wasting my precious time I could be spending indulging in hedonstic pleasure instead of suffering fools like you.

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:27 | 3637795 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

As the early charters indicate the path on which the Canadian banking system eras starting, their main points may be set out briefly. All the charters were alike and, therefore, the Bank of Montreal charter may be taken as typical. A study of this charter shows clearly that it was taken directly from that of the first Bank of the United States , which had been planned by Alexander Hamilton, the first secretary of the Treasury of the United States . Thus the Canadian banking system is a direct descendant - the only surviving one of the first Bank of the United States. Here is one line of influence at a critical point in the development of the system. The Bank of Montreal charter had the following provisions:

 

1. The directors were to be British subjects, and under certain conditions were individually and jointly liable for some actions of the bank.

 

2. Shares were to be of 50 pounds denomination each, with graduated voting so that no shareholder had more than 20 votes.

 

3. The corporation was empowered to sue and be sued in the corporate name; to issue bank notes payable on demand in legal coin; to receive deposits and to deal in bills of exchange, to discount notes, to deal in gold and silver bullion, and to sell stock pledged, but not redeemed; to have and hold mortgages on real property for debts contracted to it in the ordinary course of its dealings, but not to lend on mortgages or to purchase them; to hold real estate to the value of 1,000 pounds annually and no more.

 

4. An annual return was to be made to the shareholders.

 

There were other provisions, but these are the more important. Although the origins of the Canadian banking system are thus evident, the tremendous difference between the provisions of the bank charter of 1822 and that of 1934 indicates the great distance travelled in the century of development...

 

But the British government stated that they would allow no further Acts (a resolution not strictly adhered to), unless they conformed to the set of instructions sent out in 1833, which contained the following provisions:..

 

One of the functions given to the new federal government by the British, North America Act was control of banking and currency. Thus one of the first duties of the newly-established parliament was to meet this new banking situation. This was done by a temporary Act, which was to expire in 1870. By it the provincial charters were made, in effect, Dominion charters, and any bank could now operate in any part or all parts of the territory of the new Dominion; the Maritime banks were made subject to the same taxation as those in the central provinces . As the other provinces - Manitoba , British Columbia , and Prince Edward Island - came into the federation, the scope of the Dominion Bank Act was extended to these territories, and such banks as existed came under it. The Bank of British Columbia operated under royal charter until taken over in 1901 by the Canadian Bank of Commerce.[source]

 

Do you want me to go on? If you have no idea about the links between important Canadians and the Empire, I strongly suggest a history lesson. There's a reason Canada fought (magnificently) in WWI and WWII. It's called "being part of the Empire", you fucking tool. Many RAF pilots went to Canada to train, btw.

 

 

It's clear to all how silly you are. Want to go on?

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:28 | 3637809 damage
damage's picture

But you're being entirely misleading by leaving out important parts of the document you're sourcing. The part you're referencing is referring to the pre-1850 Canadian system. I had always been referring to the system 1880 to 1935.

 

As it says later in the document you source:

The next important move was in 1850, when the Free Banking Act was passed. The provisions of this Act were taken mainly from the United States, where they later served as the basis of the national banking system.

The main differences though were that Canada did not institute a ban on branch banking or have the silly reserve requirements which meant banks had to hold a certain part of their reserves in treasuries.

 

 

 

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:41 | 3637821 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

The Bank of Canada (French: Banque du Canada) is Canada's central bank. The bank was founded by the Bank of Canada Act on July 3, 1934, as a privately owned corporation. In 1938, the bank became a Crown corporation, belonging to the monarch in right of Canada. The Minister of Finance holds the entire share capital issued by the bank. "Ultimately, the Bank is owned by the Minister of Finance on behalf of Her Majesty in right of Canada."

 

So, yeah, not 1935. It's 1934. You'll want to know who McDonald is btw, and how he used certain banks to pay off his bad debts. 

Earlier in 1933, Prime Minister R.B. Bennett called a Royal Commission and it reported in favour of a central bank. Its members consisted of Britain's chief propagandist during the early part of World War II, Lord Macmillan, who supported central banking, as well as various British and Canadian bankers.

 

Hint: like your Google shit, nothing went down like you were taught. This was Empire; didn't work like you think it did. Who you know is more important than what you know?

 

 

I'll be really nice and obvious for you: provide me with a source for the cost of the Canadian war effort in WW1. Who paid (other than in lives) for the 1914-1918 involvement of Canada in the Great War?  

This is a major spoiler. If you miss this one, you're batting under 100 on the IQ scale.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:46 | 3637837 damage
damage's picture

And now you just totally dodged the fact you sourced a document regarding a period I was never referring to and pretending it was backing up what you were saying. And now you source more irrellavant shit and attempt to obfuscate this fact.

Explain to me why you quoted a section of the history pre-1850 which was very much unlike the system 1880 to 1935. As far as the 1934 thing if you read the rest of the wikipedia article you link to, they did not begin operations until March 11, 1935. So basically you're trying to discredit me by making more totally misleading statements.

You're a fucking liar.

Nice try though, pal.

 

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:50 | 3637844 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

The Bank of British Columbia operated under royal charter until taken over in 1901 by the Canadian Bank of Commerce.

 

Sorry, I can't read? I even put it in black for you -  1901. Oh dear. OH DEAR. Looks a little later than 1880 to me. Do you not understand what a Royal Charter is, boy? You know, involves the QUEEN and shit. The reason I ignored your ignorant claims was because it was quoted right in front of you. I was being kind.

 

Looks to me like you know shit all about this and are grasping at straws - ain't seen you use a SINGLE SOURCE yet, BOY.

 

Where's your sources, BOY?

 

WHO PAID FOR THE FUCKING WAR, BOY?

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:54 | 3637853 damage
damage's picture

.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 18:04 | 3637857 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Nice edit there. But I read it. Nice linkage to Royal Charters on Wiki without realizing what they're guaranteed by. (Hint: She has a Crown and had a fucking massive Empire).

Ooops. Did you realize at last what I was saying?

 

WHO PAID FOR THE WAR, BOY?

 

We done yet? This is kinda dull, and you're not understanding anything. The lesson is: nothing you read is as simple as you'd like, there's always a Red Queen at play, and the internet is a mirror where fighting is fucking pointless. Feel free to ignore this lesson, but hey. Reverse Pyramid Unlocked.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 18:10 | 3637876 damage
damage's picture

That's actually pretty interesting re: the Royal Charter thing. However, I don't see how this invalidates any of my previous arguments regarding the viability of a free banking system or how it invalidates that the Canadian system from 1880 to 1900 was a pretty good example of how a free banking system should work minus the rules which prevented new banks from entering into competion with the ones currently in operation. It's not as though I endorse the "pecial privledge that a Royal Charter implies. I can praise one part of a system while condemning another.

You still have yet to form a compelling argument against the type of system I endorse. Which would be like Canada's from 1880 to 1900 minus the Royal Charters and insulation from new competition.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 18:19 | 3637886 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Ahh, finally. 

Look - Fight Club only works if you both realize you're not out to actually kill each other. That's not the point of it: it's merely to hone combat, have fun and know that you're messing around.

I'm glad I made you think a little - if you're interested, go research it, and really look into it (The famous Lion / Derpy Unicorn statue piss take on the national Cathedral is a killer - Canada mocking Scotland). Me? I couldn't give a flying fuck about Canada or its Banks at this point, barring the housing bubble (although the people are cool).

 

Have a good night, and never think the surface level is all there is.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 18:25 | 3637910 damage
damage's picture

I knew Canadians liked to fellate the queen's "rod", but I actually did not know that they still got "privilege" to do stuff from the Queen. I assumed the "Royal Charter" in Canada meant it was sanctioned by their government, not literally a "Royal Charter". I'll admit I was ignorant of this fact.

At least I'm capable of admitting when I'm wrong or ignorant about a particular fact. Something I've yet to see you able to do. You've implied much from what you've sourced/quoted which doesn't invalidate any of my arguments regarding the good parts of the Canadian banking system from 1880 to 1900. You also were incredibly weasel-like in how you formed many of your arguments, you were being very misleading at times as well. You also were mainly attacking me personally, and not my arguments.

If you're really trying to mirror me you didn't do quite such a good job, as I don't base my arguments in ad hominem and strawmen. It doesn't mean I don't ever add in a few insults when I'm feeling passionate about a response I make though, but that is not the same as actually basing one's argument in ad hominem.

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 18:49 | 3637927 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Sigh, you're still not getting it Lou.

You're not getting it yet, are you?

 

You're fighting against your own ego. I just crushed you, and you're still making excuses and references to "ad hominem and strawmen". This means your own ego crushed itself and you're still pissed off with yourself and can't let it go. I don't care, and never cared, about what you think - this was a lesson. (One, I might add, I've wasted 3 hrs of my life on). Life lesson: no-one cares about your thoughts, feelings or whatever. Grow. The. Fuck. Up. I don't care what you have to say. I don't care what emotional content you've invested into your personal theories about Canadian Banking.

Hint: HERE'S THE IRONY SMACK, SEE WHAT I DID THERE?

Look way back up to your accusations of having an "emotional not logical" response and see how I toasted you, played with you and made you dance and made you invest so much effort. Myself? Didn't give a fuck - it's a mirror.

Oh: the internet doesn't work like you think it does.

 

I just gave you a free lesson in becoming free, and you still don't get it. Well, *shrug*. That's your fucking problem, dog. This was a public service charity event, and you were the poor unloved puppy. PETA will probably put you down soon enough.

 

I. Have. No. Interest. In. You. Or. Your. Arguments. This. Is. Meta. Therapy.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 19:13 | 3637991 damage
damage's picture

So you "don't care", yet you wasted all this time arguing with me? I also find it rather hilarious you are saying I need to grow up when you've spent this much time trolling me as you seem to be admitting now.

Crush me? Hardly. You never provided any argument to invalidate what my main points were, even when you switched topics to something totally unrelated (Canadian Banking system pre-1935). You brought up a bunch of stuff totally irrelevant to my opinions regarding how banking should be handled. I never endorsed Royal Charters, so how did you crush me? As I've made it quite clear, I endorse more or less what Canada had minus the Royal Charters and insulation to new competition.

And if you think you somehow crushed my ego, well trust me, it's still fully intact. It's not that I don't know that being a dick is detrimental to myself, it's just the way some people think grate on me so much I need to vent sometimes, and that's what I use the internet and comment sections for, as a release.

And yes, I do get emotional about the arguments I make, but the point is I very rarely base my opinions on emotion. The only reason I'm emotional is because I know that I've thought through my end very well, and there are many out there who do not try to form a coherent argument and just base what they believe on what "feels" right. That's what I'm referring to as far as people reacting "emotionally"...

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 20:20 | 3638005 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Yeah, literal reading is really working out for you. For someone claiming "you know nothing about Banking" to only just learn about Royal Charters, well. Don't worry, we all know how silly you look. You got burnt. You want to publish a few more 1000 word diatribes that I'll no longer read? Hint: The giveaway you're a fucking Forum Sliding Spook is your inability to source anything. I'm not your Mother: if you want to learn more, well - there's an entire internet out there. Sources? Yep, two pages, you've still not used any, even when I did.

Otherwise, dear, you're just the noise you claimed that on ZH was so despicable and you're just ruining the signal ratio.

Tip: If you don't get Satire, Bathos and Pathos, you're being turned into the very things you claim you hate about ZH. This isn't accidental. I am using you as a weapon. Booom - Head Shot. I'm using you to prove your own thesis.

 

Rule #1: You can play with me, but if you don't tap out, Fights Go On As Long As They Have To. In your case, you picked the wrong bunny, and I'll just flip every moral statement you made about ZH back onto you, prove you're a hypocrite and then I'll probably fuck with your mind a little. You've 2 statements left before that happens.

 

As I said: fucking amateur. And unlike your claim, I never lie. Proof is in the pudding, as they say.

 

p.s. Hello Langley, you're fucking rubbish at this shit. I'm doing this to send a really obvious message: you mine us, we mine you, and we are much, much, much better at organic warfare than you.

 

DO. NOT. FUCK. WITH. US.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 21:24 | 3638115 damage
damage's picture

I knew about Royal Charters, just not that they were literally the same thing in Canada as they are in England. What this has to do with banking? Not much really, but you'll act like it does because you can't actually argue against my points rationally or fairly.

Just because they operated under Royal Charter does not mean the BoE was backing them up, you've yet to provide any proof of this.

Anyway, the people I were arguing against really did not know anything about banking. The massive amount of butthurt oozing from you regarding some past shit I said regarding Rothbard's asinine opinions regarding fractional reserve banking is pretty hilarious.

You've still yet to explain why I was wrong about my main points regarding the Canadian banking system during that era. You've made this one huge attack on me personally and just keep trying to discredit me without actually attacking my argument itself.

But if this is the quality of the debate I will get from fellow ZHers it just reminds me why I rarely bother to have an honest debate with anyone here anymore, as you've shown I can only expect personal attacks and attempts to discredit me, not my arguments.

Your previous post just proves my point that your whole argument is one based on ad hominem. And yes, you do lie, you have been intentionally misleading on multiple occasions and have tried to obfuscate things.

Also, I'll fuck with you as much as I want.

Also "forum sliding", my fucking sides... seriously? I'm a "forum slider". I'm probably paid off by the dildoburgers to "shill" for the banksters, amirite?

Cry some more you butthurt Rothbardians.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 21:52 | 3638246 damage
damage's picture

OK. I actually read most of that document you linked to, and I now understand your point that Canadian banks during that period operated under "Royal Charter". However I don't see how this proves that the BoE was backing them up or acting as their Central Bank. Maybe you can quote that part to me. Because if you can't, it's completely irrelevant to my arguments made previously regarding the Canadian banking system from 1880 to 1934 and in regards to fractional reserve banking.

My point has always been that it's not loaning out reserves which is the problem, it's the central bank, and you've yet to offer an explanation as to why I'm wrong about this.

 

 

Sun, 06/09/2013 - 05:37 | 3638703 trader1
trader1's picture

oh aurora!

that 3 hours was not totally wasted, because you totally made my sunday morning breakfast that much more fun!

 

Sun, 06/09/2013 - 06:31 | 3638714 damage
damage's picture

Oh the shit that passes for users on ZH nowadays!

Dildoburgers, Barfchilds! 911WASANINSIDEJOB! INFOWARZ d00dz!

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:15 | 3637786 DollarMenu
DollarMenu's picture

Thanks Aurora!

That was fun!

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:21 | 3637790 damage
damage's picture

Let me guess, gang of butthurt faggots who worship Rothbard angry that I dared question his "wisdom"? Or wait, maybe you're one of those "other" accounts that Aurora has?

My only point today was that by accusing others of lying without proof makes you just as bad if not worse than those you're accusing of lying. But instead of people thinking this through I just get a lot of personal attacks.

 

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:25 | 3637804 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

I provided proof.

 

/sad panda.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:34 | 3637814 damage
damage's picture

And I just explained that you're either incapable of reading, or being intentionally misleading as what you quoted was referring to the system pre-1850. I had always been referencing the system 1880 to 1935. Mainly 1880 to 1900 really though.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:37 | 3637822 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Having fun yet?

 

Realizing it's a mirror yet?

 

Nope?

 

Oh well, on we go.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 21:55 | 3638271 damage
damage's picture

OK. I actually read most of that document you linked to, and I now understand your point that Canadian banks during that period operated under "Royal Charter". However I don't see how this proves that the BoE was backing them up or acting as their Central Bank. Maybe you can quote that part to me. Because if you can't, it's completely irrelevant to my arguments made previously regarding the Canadian banking system from 1880 to 1934 and in regards to fractional reserve banking.

My point has always been that it's not loaning out reserves which is the problem, it's the central bank, and you've yet to offer an explanation as to why I'm wrong about this.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 16:00 | 3637633 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

What do you think they're toasting to?

"To a bell on the neck of every free man."

"Cheers!"

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 15:14 | 3637529 damage
damage's picture

Just to make it clear i'm not defending this stuff, I'm just saying you lose credibility when you make claims which aren't substantiated and make yourself less credible by engaging in hyperbolic bullshit.

All the evidence shows Google fought this very hard, they even fought it in court, and I appreciate that fact. I see nothing good coming from demonizing them and lying about it when they never lied in their press release and they actively fought against the whole thing in court.

 

And no, I don't work for Google and I don't own Google stock. I'm just interested in the truth, not baseless accusations.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 16:03 | 3637641 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

I bet you also think gfail is the greatest email service of all time.

Sat, 06/08/2013 - 17:20 | 3637796 Going Loco
Going Loco's picture

Google didn't fight hard enough.  Google should have said to the Government,  "What you are asking us to do goes against our principles so far that if you insist we do this contemptible thing we will go offline and announce why we have done so. " People have given their lives for freedom in the past,  what does an interruption in business amount to alongside such sacrifices? 

Of course in the modern world nobody powerful has any strong principles

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