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Meanwhile, In Bitcoin...
Just last week we noted that the cryptocurrency was quietly surging towards record highs once again as the debacle in Washington, China's comments on the USD, and Baidu's acceptance of Bitcoins all interplayed to disrupt what many called he end of Bitcoin following the shuttering of Silk Road. Just yesterday, Bitcoin rose to almost USD235, within touching distance of April's record high... but then this morning, it collapsed to under $175 (as its liquidity reflected NFLX not global FX). The last couple of hours have seen the price bounce back to $210, but if you like high-beta vol, then Bitcoin is the new TSLA...
The blip from Silk Road is almost invisible... as BTC rose to near record highs...
and then collapsed today...
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If you descied to go to Bulgaria and the internet goes down, and the guys with guns at the border won't let you leave, how much is your Bitcoin Wallet worth?
If your mom becomes a Krocodil addict and the pimp doesn't accept Gold, How fucked is your mom?
Kinda an extreme example...
Get it?
If you decided to go to Bulgaria and the guys with guns at the border confiscate all the gold bars you have with you, how much is your gold worth to you?
All the ones you're near, entire continent: 100% assured. All networks will be gone, most computers & that means bitcoin will be worthless. The 2 top priorities, which compete, will be living off-grid or rebuilding the grid and paying for it won't be done with bitcoins since you need the grid WORKING to repair it.
There will be 0% restoration. Bitcoin will be dismissed at that moment as useless. The most important purpose of money is to pay for essentials & grid recovery or off-grid living if need be IS essential.
Thank you, come (boating) again
Nullification, bithez!
The oldest form of resistance on the planet!
DaddyO
As a bitcoin supporter, I disagree with your argumentative angle (mostly drawing comparisons to precious metals). I applaud the effort in expanding awarenesss and understanding of bitcoin. However, I don't think the argument can be made successfully as a complete alternative to gold, silver or other hard assets as they all have respective positives and negatives as stores of wealth and/or mediums of exchange!
It's better to draw it as an alternative to fiat currencies because that's where it's relative strengths are most readily apparent.
@ SS
Serious question. Where does one create an account, and/or wallet to transact in bitcoin?
Fast and loose for ya, don't have much time...
Important concept: The wallet is a mechnism to keep track of the "numbers" representing your transactions (arbitray fractions of bitcoins). This wallet (you can have many, and most do) can exist on your hard-drive, online, as a hard-copy (on paper in your safe at home), or memorize din your brain.
Each of those types of wallets have obvious advantages and disadvantages.
For online wallets, you have to place a certain amount of trust in the provider. Here are a few:
blockchain.info
coinbase.com
Alternatively, since the software is open-source, you can download the software and create a wallet on your computer.
See:
http://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet
Thanks
For android, de Schildbach's wallet is excellent, tres simple. backup your wallet on a usb stick in a secure location.
coinbase will sell you BTC instantly via USD ACH, and their android wallet is also quite good, but they hold the coin.
http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/ has a pretty good list of exchanges in different currencies sorted by volume. For wallets, I use blockchain.info, but I strongly recommend looking into paper wallets/cold storage/brain wallets, for the added security (You keep the keys to most of your bitcoins away from the internet/hackers, and only have what you need available.) Don't forget to backup your private keys someplace safe! Localbitcoins.com facilitates in-person trades in many areas.
My cold, dead hands won't allow me to buy any bitcoins
Do bitcoins taste better than gold?
Baidu is now accepting BTC, which could account for the recent spike.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/10/16/bitcoin-says-goodbye-...
I can see why such a centrally planned single-party system would love bitcoin.
Why is that?
They are very good at control. Controling all the bitcoin servers and "price" would be a snap, the government would love it. "prices" would be whatever they wanted.
How are they going to do that?
Tell me more about these bitcoin servers that don't exist.
The chinese don't have any servers? LMFAO!!!
Yeah, they do. So what? You didn't answer my question.
So you really believe that a Chinese official couldn't create their own bitcoin account? I thought bitcoin was anonymous? That was an essential part of it's freemarket strength. So not only are you engaging in doublespeak to shill bitcoin, but now you are confirming that you are a moron as well. Thanks.
So what are they going to do with an account that no one else couldn't? They can't create or destroy bitcoins. The worst they could do is horde them, which would make the price go up.
Actually, that is one concern. Gresham's Law applies to bitcoin. They may become so desireable that no one will want to spend them.
You're talking about servers and accounts, which don't apply to bitcoin in the way you seem to be using them.
What account are you talking about, with who, and what could they do with that account? I honestly don't get what you're saying here.
If I can use Bitcoin, so can any central banker or chinese official, and they have deep pockets. The point is, you have no idea who the person on the other side of that computer is or what there goals are, period.
That's true. Central bankers and Chinese officials can buy bitcoins. They can also buy gold. So what?
So, by your own admission, bitcoin is just as safe as any other market or currency that central banks can manipulate. Again, thanks for confirming what many already know.
They could potentially manipulate it as much as gold. And when I say gold I don't mean paper gold (the bitcoin ledger is public, so they can't claim to have more than they do), I mean physical gold. Central banks can manipulate bitcoin as much as they can manipulate physical gold.
What kind of manipulation are you afraid of?
As bitcoin is set-up you still need currency to play. So long as bankers can create fiat out of thin air and have an army of smart and savy programmers to expand or decrease that "ledger" by playing in the bitcoin area, the value of bitcoin remains largely unknown or at best as good as any other fiat.
By you do want you want. Fraud is in fact the status quo, possession is now that law. That's all you need to know.
"the value of bitcoin remains largely unknown"
One of the first things you've said that I can get behind whole-heartedly. Bitcoin is a completely new type of thing. It has both risks and potential rewards. I have no idea where it is going to go, but in my professional opinion (as someone who understands software and cryptography), the upsides are enormous and the downsides are small.
(From what I've read, you don't really understand how Bitcoin works, so I agree that you should not participate in the bitcoin market. I still don't understand why "I don't understand X" automatically means "X sucks" to some people).
Like anything else or any other mechanism to exchange the value of one's labor, bitcoin sounds great if manipulation wasn't possible. Fraud is the status quo, no question. Back bitcoin by gold, physical, and execute motherfuckers who break the rules, then I'll play. The issue for humanity (and any currency - even gold), is faith and trust in the system. A system that insures that there are real consequences for bad behavior (this is very important for an efficent market and keep capital and resources from being mis-allocated and mal-invested).
Currencies like Bennie-bucks need to be "backed" because they can be printed at will. Bitcoins cannot be printed at will. There are a set amount of them.
Who "backs" your physical gold? No one. The concept doesn't even make sense, I think you would agree.
"the value of bitcoin remains largely unknown"
This is untrue. The value of bitcoin is very clearly established: PQ/MV is the value of one bitcoin, where M is 12 million, V is 6, and P*Q is the value per unit of goods transacted, and Q is the quantity of goods transacted.
At this point, anyone who continues responding to LawsOfPhysics is essentially troll-bait. He hasn't been making substantive arguments, just personal attacks.
So, what's the mass of a bitcoin again? Please provide a "substantive argument". As admitted above, bitcoin can be manipulated just as easy as any other currency? Not my words, but that of you bretheren.
Also admitted by your bitcoin faithful; "Actually, that is one concern. Gresham's Law applies to bitcoin."
Is this not a substantive argument? Good luck with that cognitive dissonance.
"As admitted above, bitcoin can be manipulated just as easy as physical gold."
Fixed that for you.
"Is this not a substantive argument?"
Sure, but Gresham's Law also applies to gold. How is that an argument for gold over bitcoins?
kitty cat, you couldnt carry his jock strap. The hypocrisy of you Bitcoin pushers is amazing. Gold and silver have stood thousands of years as money and you sit there and dismiss it out of hand.
You guys are PM clowns and trolls.
Not at all. I own physical gold and silver. I also own bitcoins specifically because I don't dismiss them out of hand, like many people ignorant of the workings of Bitcoin seem to do.
I don't know of a reason not to own both. Buy 1 btc and try it out, you might be surprised at how easy it is to conduct a transaction. I was surprised.
Bitcoin isn't mined or stored on servers.
What bitcoin servers? Bitcoin doesn't have "servers" to be controlled.
And I would love to know how they can control the price on something that can't be printed at will, and that has no point of entries to control access.
Right, no chinese official could ever create their own account, let me guess, you don't believe that someone at JPM or GS could create an account either? So, you're simply confirming that you are in fact a moron. Thanks.
Yeah and.....So they create an account. Then what?
This is some seriously bad trolling.
You know, I would love to hear a reasoned critique of bitcoin, but so far I've found that most people who are vehemently against it don't really understand how it works. At all.
LOL, exactly!
As a programmer, it pains me to read these threads. However, it does make one of bitcoins flaws readily apparant: to most people computers are "magic". Even if the trust is based on rock-solid (and vetted) mathematical proofs, emotion trumps all.
know several programmers who went to work for Wall Street banks. Very sharp guys, but I am sure that these would never manipulate markets or currencies. As Blthe said "that would be wrong".
I don't trust programmers; I trust math.
Who's math? I trust the laws of Nature and Physics. Currencies are pretty much irrelevant when fraud is the status quo, you still need calories in order to actually do anything.
Really, you are that stupid? Okay fine. Let's see, what would I do if I could create unlimited fiat and play in the bitcoin market...
Again, no need to further confirm your ignorance, we got it.
Are you worried they are going to buy them all up? I wish they would; that would drive the price up massively. Much like they can do with physical gold, actually.
Please, by all means, drive the price of PMs up. Now you are talking, because a gram is gram is a gram. You still haven't answered my question; what is the mass of a bitcoin?
Bitcoins are massless, of course. Why does that matter?
1. I hold bitcoins. Central banks buy every bitcoin they can get their hands on, driving the price up. I sell my bitcoins and retire a very wealthy man.
2. I hold gold. Central banks buy every gram they can get their hands on, driving the price up. I sell my gold and retire a wealthy man.
What's the difference?
The difference is they won't be able to "get their hands" on my PMs and a gram will always be a gram. Physical gold, stored safely, will maintain it's mass and it's purchasing power, period. Again, by your own admission, bitcoin can still be manipulated in a number of ways.
Still not seeing the difference:
1. A gram of gold will always be a gram of gold. A bitcoin will always be a bitcoin.
2. What you can buy with a gram of gold will fluctuate with the demand for gold. What you can buy with a bitcoin will fluctuate with the demand for bitcoin.
3. I can choose not to sell my gold, even in the face of massive prices increases. I can choose not to sell my bitcoins, even in the face of massive price increases.
I don't see where I'm "admitting" anything. I've said straight out that bitcoin can be manipulated to exactly the same extent that physical gold can be manipulated. No more, no less.
Create an account where? Bitcoin doesn't have accounts.
Do you meant could they make a wallet? Sure. That's a just a public/private key pair. I can generate millions of those per second on a junk computer. But those wallets will be empty, so to what end would they do such a thing? That's like saying gold sucks because JPM can create bags to hold gold coins. Maybe so, but that doesn't fill them up.
So you're saying that there hasn't been any manipulation in the paper gold "market"? Sad.
Maybe this will clear things up: Can you explain how bitcoin is subject to a type of manipulation that physical gold is not?
What's the mass of a bitcoin?
Zero. How many ounces of gold can you send across a standard telephone wire in a second?
Isnt there a certain number of bitcoins in circulation? How long before Ben Shalom prints enough fiat to but them all? No more alternative currency
1. Ben buys all bitcoins.
2. The price of bitcoins goes through the roof.
3. Current bitcoin owners cash out at enormous profit.
4. Bitcoin 2.0 is started.
I don't see a downside there. The Bernank gets stuck with a lot of bitcoins that are now useless, and we all get rich.
Besides, doesn't there exist only a certain amount of physical gold in circulation? Why doesn't Ben buy all that up with Bennie-bucks?
No need for Bitcoin 2.0, because bitcoin are infinitely divisible. The float will always suffice for all transactions. Price fixes everything.
Not infintely. "Only" to 8 decimal places. In the highly unlikely situation that the Bernank did manage to buy up all 21,000,000 BTC and then sit on them, we could always cut/paste into a new virtual currency with no trouble at all, and with billions of extra USD to do it. He can't fight it.
You need to think about this step by step. You are looking at it too simply. Lets say Ben owns 95% of bitcoins. Do you really think the price of the remaining 5% will shoot up 20-fold to account for the lack of supply? No, they wont, because now there are 95% less people using bitcoins, which means it is no longer valuable as a currency. It cant be exchanged for goods reliably since now 95% of people arent using it who once were. You better hope the last 5% of people have what you want
My question is, how much does Ben or any interested party need to buy before the faith in bitcoin is shattered? And therin lies the problem with bitcoin, its value still comes from the faith of the people using it. It is just like every other currency in the world. Sure, its a little better because theres no central bank (yet, you just wait), but it is prone to collapse just like the dollar.
Sure, someone could say golds value comes from faith too. And thats true. But gold has had value for 6000 years. Bitcoin hasnt even been around 6000 days. Faith in gold is not going anywhere.
In Argentina, you can't buy USD or Euros or even gold, but you can buy bitcoins. Capital controls suck, and bitcoin is the solution to a hyperinflated state currency.
the zitcoin just popped......again
Nothing says reliable currency like a drop of 25% in one day.
Suckerz - shitcoinz is for losers.
I too hate it when my assets crash back to 150% of what they were worth the week before.
Don't worry goldbugs. When the Ancient Aliens return, they won't be looking for bitcoins. They'll want your gold.
What gold?
The gold in JP Morgan's vaults.
That's not my gold.
It's not? Then what is backing up your dollar? Your future production? Since dollars are based on debt, and debt is based on future production, anyone with USD has a claim on the future production of the US. You will make a good slave to your future Chinese and Saudi overlords.
Bullshit. When fraud is the status quo (as it is now) possesssion is the law. Troll harder.
And if we don't "produce" for our Chinese overlords, will they then send us to work in one of their Ghost Cities?
So that they can put the "Made in USSA" on the product labels? Boy, it'll give the expression "Got Ghosted" a whole new meaning. ;-) ;-)
Funny you'd say that, because my wife loves that show. She too wonders why the Aliens wanted our gold.
I keep telling her that they trade Gold for Latinum in Ferengi banks. Almost had her convinced, when she says: "I'll believe you when you can show me Dilithium Crystals."
She's a funny one, that Mrs Kirk.
I think that the arguments about gold vs. bitcoin are a red herring.
The argument is about dollars, euros etc vs. bitcoin.
Hopefully it will be possible to transfer between gold and bitcoins before too long and bypass the criminally controlled fiat currencies.
Sooner than you might think:
https://www.goldsilverbitcoin.com/products/gold/gold-american-eagle/ : 7.24 BTC for a gold eagle.
The appropriate price of BitCoin compared to all other world currencies is $795,000 per bitcoin. It has a ways to go.
That number is only correct if you assume that all global GDP will be transacted in bitcoin, that all bitcoin float, and that the velocity of money is unchanged in a bitcoin economy, and that GDP is unchanged in a bitcoin economy. On those assumptions, this is approximately correct.
Next target is 2500 to 3000
http://www.thebitcoinchannel.com/
by Christmas !
Sup brother!
I've just had the inner three-year-old awakened in me upon the realization that there is now a bitcoin alternative named ppCoin.
Again, Do you like Bitcoin becuase you've been able to use it to buy virtually anything you need or becuase its speculative value in dollar terms has skyrocketed?
I like Bitcoin because it's a big spiky stick up Bankster ass.
How do I run a legitimate business using only Bitcoin?
How do I set prices? How do I set labor rates? Where do I get my initial supply of Bitcoin for operating expenses?
I could buy $1 million worth of Bitcoins to operate my business for a year, but then I am essentially losing $1 million in readily accepted currency. I could sell $1 million worth of goods to people who have Bitcoin, but that is still a very small and decentralized market. So far most people who have Bitcoins are hoarding them as a speculative investment. I could invest $250k in computers to mine Bitcoins, but I'll need to cover that initial investment, and there is no guarantee I'll ever win a single Bitcoin.
I look at the exchange rate for Bitcoin and see $120. I'm paying my sales manager $30 an hour so I decide his new labor rate will be .25 BTC per hour and have him sign a contract. A week later Bitcoin is trading for $240. My sales manager effectively got a 100% raise in a week. I go back and tell him that he is now getting paid 1/8 BTC per hour to match his previous labor rate. He says, "I signed a contract for .25 Bitcoin per hour and that is what you're going to pay me." Did the value of my sales manager's labor really double in a week?
Last week I set the price of one of my products that I used to retail for $60 at .5 BTC. Items were selling well, but this week nobody is buying them because they say they aren't going to pay .5 BTC for it anymore because a Bitcoin is worth $240 and they will only pay me .25 BTC for it now. What do I do? Keep my prices tied to the dollar exchange rate, or keep my price firm in Bitcoin?
Every single suppler of mine would need to accept Bitcoin or I could get burned on every transaction. What cost me 5 BTC to buy might only cost me 1 BTC next week, or it might cost me 10 BTC if I have to transfer Bitcoin to dollars to pay my supplier.
Uncertainty about cost is what kills business. If you can't guarantee your cashflow on a daily basis, you can't operate.
BitPay already solves the issue of price fluctuations. You can accept BTC on your website but get paid in USD directly. BitPay takes all the risk.
Once enough people are on board, the price stabilizes and you can skip the middle man, accept BTC directly, and pay your suppliers/employers in BTC, which they will be happy to do because they can buy things in BTC directly at that point (and because it makes it trivial to not pay taxes).
It's just an issue with critical mass, really. When you negotiate your employment contracts in USD, you typically don't worry about the dollar's current exchange rate to euros, after all.
You deserve an award for not losing you shit over these close minded fools (not you Adr you're asking good questions, just got to the end of the thread and amazed to see Saro still patiently explaining).
I remember when I used to sit around the office laughing at the fact that people would trade cash for digits but then I read the source code after the capital controls came into Cyprus and realized what a bozo I am. The sheer number of VC funds and university level conferences should make anyone think twice that this is just a fad.
Thanks for the kind words. I think whenever you're trying to tell somebody about something too far out of main stream thought to be palatable to your average person (whether it's the workings of bitcoins, the benefits of anarchism, or any other topic that you'll never see discussed on CNN), it pays to not lose your shit. People tend to get defensive and tune you out as a crazy.
Plus, the more even-tempered you play it in the face of personal attacks, the more other people escalate and end up losing their shit first, which I find provides endless entertainment.
You can also hedge USD/BTC with futures.
In my case, I am paid Bitcoin every week corresponding to a fixed dollar amount. I receive my payment directly and quickly, with nearly zero-fees, regardless of where I am physically located at the time. The number of coins I receive each week has been declining. This is alright because the coins I saved from previous weeks have increased in value, effectively increasing my wages for those weeks. When I feel that the market is over-pricing Bitcoin, I sell more than usual into the market at the same exchange rate as which I received them. As a business owner, a Bitcoin payment processor like BitPay would automate this process for you for less than what credit card processors charge. Bitcoin is a voluntary system and a few years ago did not exist. As time goes on more and more merchants are accepting it.
<--- I understand that BTC is an enemy of the Fed*, but I love PM and therefore refuse to cheer for "the enemy of my enemy"
<--- I understand that BTC is an enemy of the Fed*, and even though I love PM, I'm happy to cheer for "the enemy of my enemy"
Point being, you don't have to use or even "like" BTC. Just be happy that it's doing its part at fighting the Fed and other CBs. There's no need to see it as a "zerosum" game of using either Gold or BTC. There's nothing to keep a person from having a mix of both -- depending on tactical circumstances and preferences. I submit that if you can't jump over that "shadow", then it says more about you than BTC. Just so we're clear on who has what angle on the topic.
* THE most corrupt privately-held cartel of fiat currency in the world.
Your ol' buddy All Out Of Bubblegum suggested that you buy into Bitcoin when it was at ~$12 in 2011.
You did buy some after you called me a bunch of names and cast aspersions on my ancestry, right?
No kidding. The amount of energy expended deriding Bitcoin would've turned into a several thousand percent winner (talking about sub-dollar parity here), had they bothered to look into it at all.
I guess its more for us, then.
Good on Sabo for trying, but honestly - anyone who doesn't have BTC or PM's deserves everything they get.