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One "Big" Problem With Bitcoin...
Submitted by Simon Black of Sovereign Man blog,
At this point, you’d pretty much have to be living under a rock to have not heard of Bitcoin.
I actually asked this question (‘have you been living under a rock?) to someone recently who proudly proclaimed that he had never heard of Bitcoin, almost expressing gratification in his ignorance of a game-changing model.
Bitcoin is on fire. Mainstream media coverage is everywhere.
Today, in fact, the Forex Industry Conference kicks off at the W Hotel here in Santiago. And the lunchtime workshop is featuring an hour-long panel on Bitcoin, including the folks behind Coin4ce.com, Chile’s largest Bitcoin trader.
No doubt, digital currency is a growing trend in Latin America… particularly in neighboring Argentina where the government has been nationalizing everything that isn’t nailed down.
The Argentine government has imposed a series of desperate capital controls and price controls, including severe restrictions on purchasing gold and foreign currencies.
Most Argentines have been left to suffer the terrible inflation and erosion of purchasing power that comes with holding a rapidly depreciating paper currency.
But for some Argentines, Bitcoin has been a salvation. And demand for the digital currency has soared in the country as people have realized that Bitcoin cannot be controlled or nationalized by the Argentine government.
As a result, Bitcoins in Argentina frequently trade for more than 30% higher than in neighboring countries… presenting a rather interesting arbitrage opportunity.
With all the mainstream attention, though, Bitcoin has been building its share of detractors. I read an article on Forbes recently entitled something like “Why Bitcoin is doomed to fail”.
Most of these pieces roll out the same tired points– that nobody knows anything about the mysterious programmer who put it together… that it’s too volatile… etc.
True, Bitcoin is incredibly volatile. A lot of this is based solely on momentum and speculation.
Think about it– the premise behind Bitcoin is that it is an alternative to fiat currency. So is gold. Yet while Bitcoin has soared in the last few months by practically an order of magnitude, the nominal gold price has remained flat.
This suggests to me that a lot of the new Bitcoin buyers are speculators– people that are trading paper currency for Bitcoin, hoping to trade their Bitcoins back into even more paper currency at a later date.
This approach defeats the purpose of holding a fiat currency alternative. And it raises a rather interesting problem that is unique to Bitcoin: with such a huge runup in the nominal price of Bitcoin, how is it supposed to be taxed?
The capital gain rules for precious metals are very clear, especially if you’re a US taxpayer. But the IRS has literally issued ZERO guidance on Bitcoin.
If, for example, Bitcoin is considered a ‘currency’ by the IRS, then Bitcoin gains should be taxed as ordinary income according to IRC section 988(a)(1)(A).
But if Bitcoins are considered to be a long-term investment, such as shares of Google that you hold for more than a year, than it should be taxed at lower capital gains rates.
And what about if your Bitcoins are stolen? Are such losses deductible like other investment losses? Or would it be treated like personal property as if your car was stolen?
And what if you’re a US taxpayer holding Bitcoins at an overseas-based brokerage? Would this ‘account’ need to be reported on foreign financial disclosure forms?
Everything is up in the air. And while the IRS has issued fairly clear guidance on precious metals, they haven’t made a peep about Bitcoin… leaving, once again, the onus on the taxpayer to figure everything out.
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Why does Simon Black even give two shits about these stupid "laws"? I don't pay attention to them and neither should you.
Oh, that should work.
Simon is a sovereign man. That's right, sovereign. You?
I pay attention to "stupid laws" because I'd rather not have my virgin butt-hole reamed by some ogre named Bubba. The risk/reward calculation regarding civil disobedience needs to include the "risk" portion IMHO.
YMMV.
Yeah, all the "leaders" at your Capitol sounded like they were struggling to define Bitcoin. So you are expecting beat cops to enforce this? Hahaha.... please moar lulz!!!!
I'm not all that worried about the clown circus that takes place at the US Capitol. I'm more worried about the folks who actually make the big decisions that don't seem to get discussed in public.
And idiots who keep saying that those helplessly stupid people in power can do nothing to fuck them over; no arms up to the elbows with me, mate!
morons
Cops are constantly enforcing laws that don't exist. Why should that change?
Bankers have looted the country, police state enacted, and you whimper about the risks of civil disobedience, grow a pair.
It is not about you paying attention to them, but about them paying attention to you.
This is truly going to be interesting to watch when the CB's of the world decide to flex the muscles.
I truly detest the FED and FRN's and anybody who has been on ZH since I've been here knows that.
The notion put forth that we BTC skeptics are somehow stooges for the CBs is repulsive and not grounded in fact.
My sense is that we don't have long to wait to see how the CBs around the world deal with a competing alternative to their monopoly.
To think they're going to sit idley by and let something get the best of them is pure foolishness.
DaddyO
I'm not bitcoin savvy in the least, but I had the idea that bitcoin use was anonymous, invisible to government observers, hence the great interest. Taxes? What taxes?
Speaking of anonymity - does anyone know if bitcoin transactions can be tracked, even if the content of the transaction is encrypted? In other words, can TPTB identify a bitcoin transfer by some characteristic of it's format?
Yes, *every* bitcoin transfer is tracked publicly forever. That is what people called the block chain. A huge public ledger.
Accounts are anonymous. You can have an infinite number. Thus, in order to have anonymous transactions, you must have anonymous entry and exit accounts.
Well that seems to be a big problem then. As some of us in the States may recall, in IRS matters, we are, unfortunately, "guilty until proven innocent."
Generating new addresses is trivial, so it's not really a problem if you were intent on tax evasion. By far the biggest issue would be exit accounts -- e.g. transfers from BTC to USD -- as all the major exchanges comply with know your customer and reporting requirements. This is actually arguably a positive for bitcoin, because it makes it a bad method for money laundering, and takes away one of the major avenues of attack by governments.
Of course it also seems that retailers (at least any that wanted to do business in the states) could be forced to report all BC transactions to the IRS. Whether Amazon accepts Bitcoin then becomes less advantageous if they report all sales to the IRS along with your account info/address.
If the IRS could reconstruct enough of an individual's BC transaction pattern based upon retailer data to show that, say, during the time you held some quantum of bitcoins that they would have appreciated 10,000%, I could see the IRS taking action against you for cap gains. Trying to defend yourself against this kind of IRS hit tactic could be difficult, if next to impossible.
We'll see. . .
Avoid online transfers for now, use cash. If you use proxy servers and encrypt your web traffic, that may help.
If you are holding bitcoins and have not sold them, nobody can tax you until you sell and make a profit. Its like having a holiday house overseas, as long as ur not renting it out or earning an income on it, it doesn't get taxed. They can't tax u for holding Bitcoins. U can hide ur private key and seed at the bottom of a lake like ur gold, where nobody will access ur stash, provided you also back it up with a wallet service and store some of the files on external USBs just in case.
If you sell and do make a profit, the transaction will be visible on the block chain, only ur public address will show the transaction. If you do not tie a name to the address, you'll be OK. As someone said, you can use as many randomly generated public addresses as you wish for each transaction. U can transact in cash with people rather than do online transfers. Since things are still sketchy and nobody knows the ultimate response from TPTB, don't use Mt Gox if ur worried about getting traced, it requires verification. Think about it, they can't bust everyone even if they tried. Thats the point of decentralization.
Understood , but it's not so much a problem as an education in how to do transactions. It's common (but a headache) to create new accounts for every transaction. If simple rules are followed, then anonymity is achieved.
Same could be said for anonymous gold in some respects. One can buy off a reputable dealer and provide an SSN for KYC laws or one can buy it somewhere else at a greater risk. The second hand market is far more anonymous.
<<Well that seems to be a big problem then.>>
That public ledger is what I use to make sure I do not receive counterfeit bitcoins. Either that or make the ledger private and centralized, i.e., true vapor money - utterly worse than fiat. You really can't have it both ways here. The addresses in the blockchain are connected to actual persons insofar as you allow them to be. The is an improvement on all other forms of online transaction and cuts out the banks as middlemen.
Legally, Bitcoin sales are taxed on par with barter transactions. Capital gains from bitcoin are taxed as capital gains. Existing laws cover it. Miners might have other issues but they won't be on here asking dumb ask questions.
On the internet, nothing is 'anonymous'. The account may not be linked to you explicitly, but don't think for a second the NSA would have any problem tracing bitcoin transactions to find your identity. For all intents and purposes, a hosted bitcoin wallet or any bitcoin transactions made over the internet are as anonymous as a ZH account. You don't honestly believe it's impossible to trace your ZH account to your identity, do you?
Why the fuck don't people get this, simply understand that if it's connected to the electrosphere in any way shape or form, there is no privacy, it can be read, listened to, pirated, redacted, modified, changed, stolen, gifted, whatever they want to do with it.
This is not an intellectual stretch, yet so many seem to think that they are safe by their very own smarts.
Wait'll you're sent to the Endless Summer of Fun Reeducation Camp in the wilds of Romania and start yelling about your fucking civil rights and how this was sooooo impossible.....
This is not correct. Anonymous sites exist all over the web. Your fears are correct and most people do not use the net anonymously since it is too inconvenient.
Mark Anthony Taylor, at your service. www.sexiestengine.com. I stand by everything I say and hide behind no avatars.
Real Question:
Would not someone who watches everything be able to tie these anon entry and exit accounts to IP addresses and get a probability who it might be?
Oh, about a 100% probability with today's technology if "they" really wanted to know. The reason so many remain safer than they are, basking in the illusion, is they've yet to be decreed a dissident enemy of the state.
Once that happens, even your heartbeats will be pulled from storage in Utah.
Betcha a whole buncha these know it alls don't even have an idea of the mysteries beneath Moffat Field, for example.
I hear they buried Jimmy Hoffa under Moffet Field in a decomissioned blimp.
Yes. You could tie the IP address to a bitcoin account and get a very high probability. Bitcoin requires the internet to work so this is one of the greater weakness I have seen. To avoid, transactions may be signed offline and delivered via any IP you choose, coffee shop, airport, wherever. Not necessarily delivered every time by your home.
There are likely better solutions for this problem out there or in development that I am not aware of.
Connect through the Dark Web?
Even if most transactions are carried out from different IP addresses to provide improved anonymity - coffee shops, airports, cyber cafes etc - it would only take a few to be carried out from the same domestic IP Address with the same Bitcoin block for the spies to focus on the owner.
Absolutely true. I don't worry so much about it as there is a tremendous amount of effort going into anonymizing the transactions. Not to mention the other coin models like ZeroCoin and others that I haven't researched. ZH even had an article a few days ago about the lack of trust rising. I suspect that spurs much development in this area, not to mention the wider focus on privacy that Mr. Snowden created.
At present, BTC is not illegal nor taxed (that I am aware of) so there is a bit of a race between the privacy and regulation initiatives. This will likely be a neverending battle.
Just hold your breath until you get audited. Don't worry. The IRS will have plenty of clear laws that you were supposed to know about all along. Since you didn't know them though, 100% of your assets will be seized. It's great. I fucking love this country!
"And what about if your Bitcoins are stolen? Are such losses deductible like other investment losses?"
All my bitcoins unfortunately went down in the lake when my boat capsized. Where do I list my loss?
If you didn't take precautions (register them) or insure them, it's your loss. ;-)
you dont have to hide ur bitcoins.........they're invsible...I store mine on the front porch
All bitcoin accounts are guaranteed by BDIC. Bitcoin Deposit Insurance Corporation. /sarc
I bought
New, Improved Bitcoins! Now with Flotation Collars! Guaranteed not to sink!
Bitcoin is proof that people want a medium of exchange that the government does not interfere with. Now this could be gold, but the moment you start exchanging goods for gold you will be arrested on some vague "undermining the currency" charge. Bitcoin's anonymous nature does make it attractive over gold, however I feel that it is conditioning people towards digital currencies and nothing stops the government from releasing and enforcing their own (super nasty) version of Bitcoin down the line. That's why Bitcoin should be treated with skepticism.
It's not fully anonymous. Most people are likely using it in a way that is perfectly transparent to anyone watching. only careful use results in anonymity.
I think your point is reversed People are already conditioned to digital currency by the evolution of their government fiat. The result of this educationhas been the rapid adoption of Bitcoin.
Come on people. The rapid adoption of bitcoin is for one reason only at the moment: Speculation.
I'd venture that 90% of current transactions are speculators trying to make a quick buck.
The other 5%, at best, are ideologues and mere technological curiosity. The other 5% are people trying to hide / move money.
I'm open to data that shows the real numbers, but until then, I'm going to have to assume that the current Bitcoin Mania is decidedly NOT about the ideological bloviations of the pumpers, nor the original supposed purpose of Bitcoin.
Perfectly fair criticism, I fall into the ideologue camp. It is better.
I certainly hope you are wrong, I guess we will all know a few years from now.
Both speculator and idealogue. I am in it for long term speculation, as I see fiat collapsing, and not going into PM until PM warehouses are empty 12 month dow the line. Bitcoin will be good till then. The time to sell is when Comex is about to default. Then BTC sell sell sell and buy buy buy PM.
+1 This is a good thread, starting with agent default.
There are some anomalies with BTC that may have been overlooked by its proponents.
1. The rate of creation of BTC will be halved every 4yrs until there are 21 million in total. (Currently it is 25btc/10min).
2. Nobody knows the rate of loss of BTC through accidents, deaths, confiscations, etc. Loss defined as lost to circulation forever.
3. The key to prevent fraudulent "double spending" is the updating of the blockchain on distributed networks. Problems have already arisen as a result of mismatched blockchains.
Make of these facts what you will, but the first two should concern those who want to know just who controls the rate of creation of btc (just as it concerns us all about the rate of creation of new money by the Fed), because both facts point to manipulation designed to inflate the value of btc with time. I.E. Fewer coins will be created as demand and recognition goes up while at the same time, the losses in the system will never be replaced meaning there will be fewer in available in circulation. That in a nutshell is supply market manipulation.
The last point has probably been covered to death by both pro and opposing views. I will leave it with the simple fact that when blockchains on the networks mismatched, it was once again the self appointed BTC elders who decided which version should be used. So when it comes down to the fine print, the control of who owns what in cyberspace is not the 'freedom enabled libertarian BTC wallet holder', but an anonymous body made wealthy beyond avarice by the earnest, the ideological, the gullible, the greedy, the ignorant, and lastly the canny speculators who can see it for what it is.
Please make sure you are in the last part of the BTC user domain, if you intend to participate.
Everything you say is 100% correct, the problem is that 99% of the ZH cannon-fodder here don't have a fucking clue of what you said,
But keep saying it, cuz its the only way that just maybe the god's of ZH like BANZAI 1or2 can just for fucking once post an OP on ZH that tell's the truth about BTC.
Every fucking day here ZH posts the same lies over and over and 'fonestar' jumps into support ZH, almost makes you think that ZH left switzerland, and is now owned by a chinese btc mining pool, or maybe just the IMF/AIPAC/BIS.
Yep, that libertarians love BTC, is MYTH 101, ... the truth is most libertarians know that BTC is just another tool to rob the POOR of their freedom.
The only people who support BTC are fucking 'get rich quick' assholes. Period.
Kinda like Obummer care. That's why Obummer care should be treated with skepticism.
That's exactly what they are trying to do.
This isn't a problem for Bitcoin. It is a problem for the IRS.
Now do you understand the real reason they built the new NSA center in Utah, and had it operational in October? [Penny drops]
It's not so much that they track each of us what what we're doing in real time, but to help the IRS* in forensic analysis on anyone whom they put under scrutiny. If you're a "US Subject"**, you're phucked, of course.
* IRS: Intentional Rectal Scrutinies. No place is safe from them.
** US Subject = US Citizens and Lawful Permanent Residents. Note that Aristocrats and Royalty also refer to their minions as "Subjects".
I'd agree. I'd also say that the scope won't be limited to just IRS use but with every agency that can dream up a need to have access.
The Beatles - Taxman [2:41]
Good angle Kirk.
Third party's are already selling a de-privatizing service for BTC's to anybody with a nickel.
The block-chain, being public can be fed to a DATABASE (oracle), and then block-join-merged, you get transactions for all time by USER, and all USER's can be mapped back to real persons,
All BTC's are tainted to crime and all BTC's are montiored 24/7 by IRS/NSA,
Anybody that continues to ignore this truth deserves to get fucked in their ZH arse.
"This suggests to me that a lot of the new Bitcoin buyers are speculators– people that are trading paper currency for Bitcoin."
Geez....pure genius?
Sovereign genius. He's a sovereign man, with sovereign things to do. Right now these are being done in Argentina. Next week maybe Bolivia.
Secret agent man. Johnny Rivers 1966. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iaR3WO71j4
I was in Bolivia last month. No capital controls yet. Only rampant socialism and horror of horrors: affordable medical care.
BITSCAM...
Anonymous online marketplace that replaced Silk Road VANISHES... taking $100MILLION of users' money with ithttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2517244/Illegal-online-marketpla...
Soveriegn Ape
US lawsuit demands 'legal personhood' for chimpanzees Case seeks to designate chimp called Tommy as a 'cognitively complex autonomous legal person'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10490128/US-lawsuit-demands-legal-personhood-for-chimpanzees.html
Great. Meet Tommy, our next president.
Bribe him with an orange.
Because drug dealers never stole dollars, only bitcoins.
Sure, but that isn't the context, the scam was predicated on the Bitcoiners desire for anonymity, the bait was anonymity in trade, This could be done with "legal" goods... where anonymity is sold
Could you maybe stop being so stupid? People buying drugs don't have any legal recourse. People buying white market goods do.
Simon Black, WTF!!! Are you some kind of a CIA Double Agent, to be spoon-feeding the Gov/IRS these ideas?
Any other "Beat the Gov" ideas you'd like to share with them? You get paid by both your clients and the Gov? Nice gig, if you can get it.
Simon black is as much a 'soveriegn man' as FONESTAR is an investment advisor,
I have tried to read Black's shit and its obvious he don't know shit about being an ex-pat,... he's just another whore selling and online website newsletter that don't say shit,
ZH posts his shit, cuz he's an advertiser, ... seems that's all takes to be an OP poster here,
Wherever there is money you'll find the IRS.
In 1944, under the Bretton Woods Agreement, Corp. U.S. is quit claimed to the International Monetary Fund, and becomes a foreign controlled private corporation.
via silverdoctors.com
Virtual Gold Backed Currency to Rival Bitcoin?http://www.silverdoctors.com/virtual-gold-backed-currency-to-rival-bitcoin/
The biggest problem with Bitcoin is that it is intangible.
They are too easy to move, too easy to buy and sell.
Gold is valuable because it is heavy, tangible, universally recognized, and requires nothing other than hands to exchange (or a truck if it is a lot).
Yes, Gold is "valuable" indeed: to TPTB. So easy to find and confiscate or simply tax (at POS).
Especially valuable and popular with ex-wives and their lawyers, who can follow your 'money-trail' to your Precious purchases, if they don't know where you actually keep it. /s
"easy to find and confiscate" - Not a student of history are you?
Fine, I'll concede you points on 'Technical Merit', my friend. Given that...
(a) The US only pretended to confiscate it (under FDR), (b) there was only in one high-profile (self-inflicted) case that I'm aware of, and (c) most sheeple voluntarily turned it in. To my knowledge.
But, in today's era of "Ferengi-class" deviousness on their part, I'd expect them to take the path of least resistance: Tax it at POS (point-of-sale). And to give ex-wives and snitches an "incentive" to rat us out.
Just to play devil's advocate - what would happen if there was an exchange that dealt in converting PMs to BCs or BCs to PMs? There's be no "capital gain" to tax since "profit" only occurs in fiat - right?
Hmmm. . . .
FU IRS
I lost my bit coins in a virtual boating accident.
Sadly like many ZH'ers I have an affinity for water yet terrible boatmanship.
Yup, my boat is the S.S. Minnow and Gilligan and the Skipper trained me.
I have excellent boating skills however my yacht was rammed and sunk by an angry sperm whale so I lost it all.
Useless middlemen really hate it when they don't get their cut...
First off, converting cryptocoins into fiat, or vise-versa, currently is a pain in the ass. The only reason to convert cryptocoins into fiat is to buy groceries, gas, or pay rent, and utilities. If those places start taking cryptocoins, then there is no need to convert. I would venture a guess that the real war begins against cyrptocoins at the point in time when they can be used to buy the necessities of modern life. That's when the bankers will have their minions come down on all alternative currencies quite hard. Until then they will be ridiculed and brushed off as a novelty.
The sheep have been fleeced! Was this from The Onion?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2517244/Illegal-online-marketplace-replaced-Silk-Road-VANISHES--taking-100MILLION-users-money-it.html
At this point, you’d pretty much have to be living under a rock to have not heard of Bitcoin.
Actually... 99.9% has no clue about what you're talking
Same people who refuse to buy PM because '...they have no place to put it.'
Hey SD, you are "into" European payment processors, correct? Have you heard anything about ZipZap adding 25k locations in the UK (somehow avoid the 20% VAT) and 240k locations in Russia that will sell Bitcoins in corner stores next month? Stop in for a Lotto ticket, pick up a bitcoin while you're at it. [link1] [link2]
All this bitching about Bitcoin......i should have bought it when it started as a speculation.....oh well....?
If it crashes again i will be ready to buy some.....will it go to $1,000,000 from here.....?
It might....it might go to $2000. It might go to $20.
If you want to speculate with just a little money, try opening an account at btc-e.com and buy up some of the alternative currencies, they are only valued in the milliions, rather the billiions. As they derive from the same codebase, but implement fixes, security and speed enhancements, they should offer a better future that bitcoin and return a greater yield, providing you pick ones that do not fall into obscurity.
I always take financial advice from codpieces on the internet ;>
If it is worthless, a fraud, a scam, a complete joke, etc. then why the fuck are people "analyzing" how it will be taxed?????? So which is it - you say it's gonna go away but then you say we need to consider how it will be taxed. If it is going bye bye then why the fuck would taxes matter.
Bitcoin is far from perfect but this is a weak attempt at "raising a red flag". The tax situation will work itself out. If you make some cash and ultimately convert it back to USD everyone knows deposits above $9999 get flagged by "them". So they'll hit you that way between now and when this gets sorted out.
Don't deposit it?
Sure. If you are confident (and ultimately accurate) that it will perform well as an asset for a period of time then just hold it and "cash out" a little here and there by purchasing things you need/want inside the bitcoin economy. i plan on using it at Target in the not too distant future and maybe even buying a car when that time arrives (yesterday if you ask my girlfriend).
Because of a tremendous increase in growth and prosperity bitcoin will bring the IRS trillions more in voluntary compliance taxes.
THANKS
Let's review the END-GAME here, I think folks don't get it, cuz ZH always posts the same pro-imf narrative everyday,
1.) All BTC's are tainted with silk-road or crime
2.) All BTC blocks are mapped back to YOU and where you BANK, FACT.
3.) Eventually when you cash out, you co-miningle bad money with your good money, and that means the IRS can take all.
Fuck yes, I see the IRS nabbing billions 10's perhaps 100's of billions of dollars from idiot's.
Nothing can or will be done, cuz once your 'tainted' ( child porn, drugs )... BTC's are brought into your account, then all your money is gone. Period.
I would really appreciate it if you never use Bitcoin. thanks.
Sounds like exactly what bitcoin was meant to do, be as difficult to tax as possible so the govs actually have to work for their taxes and realize they are just employees, not rulers.
On the subject of bitcoin transaction transparency, one little tracking method has been overlooked, and it takes the form of a 'declared value' when shipping an item via say FDX, UPS, and the like, not to mention the vendors report of goods sold and then drop shipped to a specific address. if you think the NSA doesn't monitor CC transactions your crazy, debt and credit alike, so why would they not track corp transaction histories via postal services logistics. imagine the red flag this would throw off.... a package of widgets bought(with BITCOIN) and shipped(using US DOLLARS) from ZYX.com via UPS, the declared value was $199.95, and looking back at the trail there was no debt or credit transaction for this sale from the buyer, so in the eyes of the IRS you have a reportable gain of 199.95. in a real twisted way you are committing a federal crime by circumventing taxes and probably with good measure committing mail fraud. Ebay via the postal service was one of the first to begin monitoring the volume of transaction from the online market place, and if not mistaken documenting transaction 'declared value' on the labels, or at laest the data variables existed in the system for later dissemination. thats my 2 bitcoins worth
Yup, track city. Good thinking.
http://www.bitcointax.info/
Biteme boating accidents happen all the time.
Let us be clear: The REAL reason ppl around the world use barter, cash, gold, silver, or cyber currencies is to FIGHT BACK... Against the out of control governments and their cartel of fiat gangster/bankster bosses, who are busy concocting all sorts of ways to enslave their populace. They did not vote for or otherwise approve the systematic theft of wealth via endless paper/fiat-money creation, that transfers wealth from the many to the few, from the average and poor to the wealthy.
It is their way to keep more of what they (a) created and (b) own. The average people pay more than enough in taxes and labor. The poor pay via their slave-wages, and the middle-class pay via their labor plus taxes. So that the rich and ultra-rich can pay very little to nothing, for merely being having lots of confetti-wealth that begets more confetti-wealth.
Fuck 'em ALL, and hang 'em high. Roll out the guillotines already, and return the country back to its "We The People" and its Constitution and Bill of Rights! Bunga, bunga your tax fraud up yer taxman ass!
is sure seems to me that bitcoin is more of an investment than a currency,
When one currency collapses people invest in another. That is why Bitcoin is so positive. All else, bonds, stocks, fiat, PM, is all being manipulated.
I am sure BTC is immune.
If bitcoin lives only in the world of zeros and ones, how can there be an "Argentina"?
010000010111001001100111011001010110111001110100011010010110111001100001
Shares of the Mississippi Co are going like hot cakes.
Edit to add: I got the yBitcoin magazine in the mail today, unsolicited. Maybe someone over at NSA sold my address to them.
Fonestar's mission: To crowd everyone else out of the most widely read comments at the top of the page.
I'm at the bottom too.
TROLL LEVEL: 1000
Long ago 'fonestar' admitted he was on the payroll of a chinese btc mining pool, and his job is to pump&dump and 'push' BTC ( his words ), take the BOT at his word.
In a year when BTC 1.0 is history, you can be sure BOT-FONESTAR will be selling something else, ... think cabbage patch dolls, or penney stocks.
For right now BTC is a bonanza for mining hw, and asic's, and dumb bitches buying BTC, ...
What saddens me the most is that 'fonestar' has admitted his job is to 'push' btc onto poor dumb fools, in other words he enjoys taking money from idiots,... in summary 'fonestar' is a sociopath.
nothing matters in 24 hours all these comments are gone forever, ...
Just out of interest, here's how you buy a bitcoin in China: you register on BTCchina. Takes a few minutes. You fund your account by transferring, with no fees, from any chinese bank account. You buy some bitcoin. Contrast that with the US. The US banks are looking a lot like the major record companies did when confronted with napster and mp3s. I still don't understand why the chinese government is so supportive of bitcoins but they must have a plan that they think benefits China.
In 1978 I was on a worldwide tour of 'martial arts' and I wanted to learn about chinese martial arts, but the real stuff not the shit you see in the USA at 'kung fu' schools on every corner.
But what blew me away in china, was that blues and irish bar's were open 24/7, it was nothing like the USA, it was then that I realized that CHINA was wild-west 1860's capitalism, and that the USA was the most controlled anti-capitalist nation on earth.
The reason of course in the USA is that your money is NOT your money, so they make it very hard to do anything with your money.
In china your money is yours, your gold is yours, your business is yours, and when you go open a business, there is no permits and bullshit, ...
In the USA opening say a micro-brewery takes a 1,000's permits and payoff's from agency's you didn't know that existed, and that is FASCISM, big companys putting up tolls to keep little guys from entereing, but its also government people taxing you at every fucking movement.
IN SUMMARY CHINA is a FREE COUNTRY, the USA has and NEVER was free, except the WILD WEST pre civil war,
The USA civil war largely ended freedom in america,
My gramps was a real tycoon. Made millions in business's near Toronto. He was up and coming in early 1900's. I used to hear all the stories about how he could just walk in to the city and slap his plans on the table and get an approval by end of the day. No bullshit, no payment, no studies. Minimal interference and free. Pretty wild to hear these stories. How things have changed.
how many big btc promoters/supporters grew up with noththing but fiat currency?...for them, cyber currency is the natural answer to gov't money abuse as "computing" is all they know...
how many of us "old guys" remember when you could take dollar bills to any bank and exchange them for real silver any time you wanted to "just feel good"?...
the confidence in, and recognition of value with real metal has not changed in 1000s of years...if btc is around in the next millinium I'll be the first to say "welcome to the club"...
Bitcoin is a multi-player computer game.
It has rules and points (bitcoins) you can earn (create) buy "getting thru the maze" successfully (mining).
It has some features not found in typical multi-player computer games, points have unique serial numbers, points can be traded with other players, public "ledger" to record trading of points and fractions of points, public nodes (exchanges) offering to trade points for currency ("money") and vice versa.
Bitcoins are just points in a multi-player computer game. That's all it is.
And being a multi-player computer game means anyone else can create a similar multi-player computer game, like Litecoin for example. There's no limit on how many similar multi-player computer games can be created. There could be thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands.
In fairness, fiat currencies are government controlled multi-player computer games where points are not earned (created) by successfully completing some task, but are created by the government, central bank, or any other govt authorized bank.
That's the only real difference. How points are created.
DEL
NEVER FUCKING COMPARE,
Since 1910 100 million people have been murdered to make the USD the world's reserve currency,
How many people have died to date to make BTC the #1 crypto-currency?
"Since 1910 100 million people have been murdered to make the USD the world's reserve currency."
That's so wildly false. Amazing someone could make such a ridiculous statement.
Until '71 USD was reserve currency because it was backed by gold. After '71 when it no longer had gold backing deals were made with oil exporting nations to require oil payment in USD in exchange for military protection, hence the "petrodollar".
Yes more recently some deaths can be attributed to keeping USD reserve status, like oil exporting nations wanting to move away from USD (Iraq), or nations wanting to issue a gold-backed currency (Lybia).
Yes US govt is getting thuggish these days because they see (a) oil exporting nations talking more about moving away from USD and (b) increasing possibility of China issuing a gold-backed currency.
But that thuggishness has hit a brick wall now, and that brick wall has Putin's name on it. I don't think Putin is gonna put up with any more US thuggishness. We saw it in Syria where Obama caved in and backed away. We're seeing it in Iran where Obama totally caved in with great embarrassment.
And if China issues a gold-backed currency there's nothing Obama and the entire US military can do about it because China will have Russia's full support, and that's all the way to thermonuclear. Obama / Fed / Wall Street tries to sabotage China's gold-backed currency, America will be nuked, plain and simple.
That doesn't change the fact that unbacked currencies are just points in multi-player computer games, whether it's USD or Bitcoin. One is govt controlled, the other isn't.
Over 100 MILLION people murdered in a 100 years to make the USD what it is today, HOW many people will be murdered to FORCE the world to accept BTC 2.0?
Learn real history BTC-BITCH
1.) WWI was engineered by FORD, HEARST and US banking interest
2.) WWII was engineered by FORD, HEARST, BUSH and US banking interest, US industrialists brought HITLER to power. Fact
3.) Post WWII was all about USD reserve control
4.) Post 1970's was all about USA being the worlds policeman to kill any black market that didn't trade in USD
5.) Oil wars post 1990's have been about making sure the petro-dollar is the USD.
6.) 2013 THE USD is dead, so the NSA/CIA/IMF(USA) brings out a new world currency, ... BITCOIN 2.0
It doesn't matter how many people may have been killed for USD hegemony, it doesn't change what USD is now, just points in a huge multi-player computer game, just like Euros, Yen, and Bitcoin, Litecoin, etc.
No backing is the issue. When there is no backing, totally fiat, it's just points in a game.
That's right, the American monetary system left the real world and became a game in '71.
Nobody losing their life over Bitcoin doesn't make it any more righteous or real world. It's still a fucking game.
And whatever game the US govt moves to after the USD game is over, they're gonna bully everybody they can to play their new game.
But their bullying is being challenged now by someone big enough to kick their asses, so whatever game they move to won't see universal participation like the USD game. And if China goes back to the real world with gold-backed currency, everybody else's fiat currency games will lose most or all of their players.
ZH is god-damn consistent, in that they always are on the wrong-side of an issue, and that they always get the issue wrong. Why pray tell? Probably just to create comments, which drive ad hits, ... But consistently the lead OP's are PRO BIS/AIPAC/IMF.
That said today's article is PURE BULL, and Simon Black doesn't know shit about BITCOIN, anymore than a day-trader knows about HFT Algo's.
What's clear is that the NSA/IMF have conviced ALL that BTC is the solution, but as I have been sayin all along, BTC will break, and will never work on hand-held devices and the GOAL here is micro-transaction in 3rd world country's.
Thus given that BTC 1.0 is a tower of BABEL, there will be a BTC 2.0, and that will be green-listed (IRS), centralized (IMF/FED), and Gated (NSA).
Green-Listing is essential as all users MUST be marked good/bad, and all BTC blocks must be marked stolen/lost/good.
Centralization is required becaues the block-chain P2P model was only good when the CHAIN was 2gb, but now 12GB and will soon be 100GB followed by 1000GB, and if any of you have tried to download 12gb you know it may take a day or forever depending on where you live, but the problem is unless you have a full complete block-chain, then your not a player. In the orginal model the idea of Satoshi was that the block-chain could and would be kept in memory at all times and that most computers had an extra 2GB laying around unused in RAM.
Trouble is at 12GB and growing daily, this is now means all Block-Chains are on the hard-disk which means most shit will grind to a halt, and forget about fucking hand-held devices.
But what's more interesting is this all requires a SOLUTION, and that solution of course means CENTRALIZATION of all block-chains on NODES, and those NODES will be controlled by ASSHOLES whether IMF, NSA, or MAFIA ( btc exchanges, and mining pools ).
Lastly, of course 'gated' is what is now being done in Amsterdam, should you be a BTC vendor or merchant, and should the local gubmint not like you, they simply close your merchant account, which means your business is KAPOOT.
So the best of all with BTC is that anybody can be selectively put out of biz, and only those who are liked by the SYSTEM can remain in biz.
Back to micro-payments all the world's POOR will be controlled with their mobile phones, tracked, and if they're listed as a 'problem' they will be denied lunch money, which means that every user world wide of BTC will be a 'dog on a leash'.
You always show up here CTRL+C and CTRL+V some random stuff about how Bitcoin is doomed, mix it in with your conspiracies about NSA creations etc, then I push you for any solid sources and you just leave us hanging....
That's pretty fucking good 'sociopath bitch' ( fonestar ), its pretty obvious from my bad spelling, and fucked grammar, that I write off the cuff,
Funny anyone else would bitching about spelling or grammar, but not fone-star, he goes right the bone and talks about ctrl-v, and ctrl-c,...
Nope fonestar, I hold a PHD in computational-physics, and I have worked in this field my entire life, ... in fact I was on the team that developed DES back in the day for NSA.
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IMHO all the OP shit on ZH is IMF narrative talking-points, and I'm getting really fucking bored of BTC, but like yesterday about Thailand, I find there ignorance here atrocious, even buckaroo-bonzai, and banzai-cartoon guy are completely wrong about most things, ... the problem is that 90% of you buy into the IMF talking points on ALL subjects.
You need to step back.
I know in your case your like mr-mcGoo and your near sighted and your only tool is the hammer, which in this case is a 'btc'.
IMHO if BTC is the solution, then this world is really fucked.
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We are at war, and FREEDOM is our goal, and BTC is just one of the many things to come along to enslave us, and given that your supporting the 'enemy' then that makes you the enemy. Get it fonestar?
And how do you believe the intelligence agencies are going to deal with exponentially growing wallets, dark wallets, one-time addresses, etc? I ask this totally in jest because I only expect a RANT in return, lightly salted with some technical jargon.
I don't think that the NSA that has the computing power to store and analyze/search every phone call and email in the world will have much trouble monitoring and analyzing the movemement of bitcoins through all wallets whether known or unknown. They only need a few known points in a blockchain (or several blockchains) to make educated guesses. The real evil with blockchains is that it provides a mechanism to flag accounts "doing business" with a "bad" wallet even if the owner of the "bad" wallet isn't known.
The only way to truly ensure privacy is to mine your own bitcoins (no previous transaction history). That's not going to be practical for the masses.
I see exactly what your saying 401 and I agree. Your post just scared the crap outa me. I read somewhere that they already are doing this in Africa. All paychecks go directly to your phone and you pay with phone too. Wild.
That will be the end game global currency of choice. All tracked. No lost taxes, all currency on phones and tablets tracking every tax penny out there.
* it would not surprise me if the globalists were BEHIND bit-coin in the first place. This will be our undoing.
That will be the death knell to the black market which keeps the economy afloat.
Notice the timing of bitcoin ATMs in Cyprus - just in time to be ready for the (first) confiscation that may have broken the bankers' paper gold promises...not rolled out sooner so there was no time to vet.
Argentina capital controls can't stop the gold black market, but bitcoin "saves" gold from another liberation from paper gold.
'black market' is a KEY concept grasshoppers, remember the CIA only exist since 1947 to make sure that all black market trade in dollar
child sex slavery, usd
opium usd
oil usd
cocain usd
the CIA is the mafia their job is to make sure black market is USD, now with BTC they'll have to add GOLD to the black-market, as if you BUY/SELL GOLD using BTC, then 'they' will know as they as the NSA/IMF
it's going to be very hard in the future to sell gold or to move gold, ... sure in the short term you can bury your gold, but in the long term its going to become a 'black market' deal, as you'll have to be careful about your sales not becoming public, and anything that goes BTC is public, and once its public it can be taken by any agency, court, ex-wife, or any fucking INTERPOL or anything any where,
it's going to become REAL fucking hard to be off the grid, probably DIAMONDS ( AL-QUEDA USES ) will become #1, so they too will be black-market, but you can wear diamonds up your ass in a small bag undetected, unlike gold,
Basically living in a small place self sustained, where nobody really uses money is the best bet, ... lets be honest, any place that uses 'money' is fucked, ...
Survivors will go back to BARTER, with tangibles,
But you will have to find a place to live off the land, and that means temperate or tropical, most of AMERICA is not year round agric friendly
The BTC chain is public, which means now all government in the world can track everybody's personal saving's and spending, and its NOT spying, cuz its all PUBLIC. Fucking Brilliant.
Those that adopt BTC deserve to get fucked in the ass, and will get NO fucking sympathy.
Those that PUMP BTC will never be forgotten, but me thinks that the pumper's themselves know to keep their own 'real money' out of BTC. Unless they're fucking morons.
HOW many people MUST be KILLED to make BTC 2.0 the worlds Reserve Currency?
Over 100 MILLION people murdered in a 100 years to make the USD what it is today, HOW many people will be murdered to FORCE the world to accept BTC 2.0?
Learn real history BTC-BITCH
1.) WWI was engineered by FORD, HEARST and US banking interest; USA industrialists engineered all aspects of WWI to drive europe into the toilet and rise UK/USA into a position of absolute world power.
2.) WWII was engineered by FORD, HEARST, BUSH and US banking interest, US industrialists brought HITLER to power. Fact
3.) Post WWII was all about USD reserve control
4.) Post 1970's was all about USA being the worlds policeman to kill any black market that didn't trade in USD
5.) Oil wars post 1990's have been about making sure the petro-dollar is the USD.
6.) 2013 THE USD is dead, so the NSA/CIA/IMF(USA) brings out a new world currency, ... BITCOIN 2.0
Nobody has to die man, lay off the meds.
I will just sit and grin, the money will roll right in.
Let me see if I got this straight. Bitcoin is a digital currency, right? It does not exist in the tangible world, but exists in silicone bits and bites which are housed in server farms, which are powered by an antiquated electric grid, which must be maintained at 60 cycles per second, and balanced between supply and demand, while transmitted through a system of wires which are hung on poles over 50 years old, subject to electromagnetic pulse or some drunk asshole plowing into one of their rotten power poles, and is completely tracked by a draconian totalitarian global elite system of fucktards who use computer algorithms to manipulate and leverage all markets to their advantage, and by the IRS, IMF, CIA and the NSA?
What could possibly go wrong?
This risk isn't limited to Bitcoin. If the lights stay off, there goes every bank, every tech company, fuels distribution, all the supply chains. Are you proposing the world switch back to bullion to conduct all trade? Good luck with that. While the lights stay on there are much more cost- and time-efficient means to conduct trade than shipping, guarding and insuring phyz. Your competitors will choose the cheapest route and price you out of the market.
Not to mention that if that doomsday scenario actually came true, yeah there might be hell to pay in some places but a great party going on somewhere else in Europe or Asia. So yeah, if you plan on dying in some Grid-X doomsday shit don't buy BTC I guess?
You can print out your bitcoin afaik so if seems every but as tangible as a USD.