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Greenspan Baffled Over Bitcoin 'Bubble': "To Be Worth Something, It Must Be Backed By Something"
"In order for currencies to be 'exchangeable' they have to be backed by something," is the remarkably ironic initial comment from none other than debaser-of-the-entirely-fiat-dollar Alan Greenspan when asked about the "bubble in bitcoin," by Bloomberg TV's Trish Regan. Unable to "identify the intrinsic" backing of Bitcoin (or see bubbles in equity, credit, real estate, or greater fools) Greenspan is, apparently, capable of identifying Bitcoin "as a bubble," because "there is no fundamental means of "repaying' it by any means that is universally accepted." The farcical double-speak continues as the Maestro does a great job of making Bitcoin (which Ron Paul earlier noted could be the "destroyer of the dollar") look even better than the readily-printed fiat we meddle with every day.
Greenspan explains...
"when we were on the gold standard, [currencies] had intrinisc value which made people willing to exchange their goods and services with no question."
"Alternatively, when we went into "currencies", it was the "backing" of the issuer of the currencies... whose "great credit-standing meant his checks could circulate as money.""
So either its backed by real physical metal with intrinsic value - or the promise of someone...(increasingly politicians of course) with good credit (or a big army)?
"I do not understand where the backing of Bitcoin is coming from. There is no fundamental means of "repaying' it by any means that is universally accepted."
Like fiat currencies (just ask the Venezuelans)...
"Individuals with very high net worth and great reputations could create their own currency... because people would be willing to exchange their checks with each other at par."
So coming soon the BuffettCoin or MuskCoin (oh wait reputation), or the GatesCoin?
But, Greenspan sums it all up...
"I haven't been able to identfy the intrinsic value of Bitcoin - maybe someone else can...
but if you ask me if this is a bubble in bitcoin... yeah it's a bubble.
Which ironically (perfectly circular) is exactly what Bernanke said about gold...
- BERNANKE SAYS `NOBODY REALLY UNDERSTANDS GOLD PRICES'
So - after that - go buy his book!?
And some more color from Ron Paul on Bitcoin as "destroyer of the US Dollar":
Via Mike Krieger's Liberty Blitzkrieg blog,
While we believe it is the Federal Reserve that is systematically destroying the US dollar, Bitcoin could merely be the preferred conduit through which fed up citizens decide to express their displeasure with the incredibly corrupt corporatist-facist state being shoved down our throats by a handful of insane and greedy oligarchs. Interesting comments nonetheless. From CNN Money:
Imagine a world in which you can buy anything in secret. No banks. No fees. No worries inflation will make today’s money worth less tomorrow.
The digital currency Bitcoin promises all these things. And while it’s far from achieving any of them — its value is unstable and it’s rarely used — some have high hopes.
“There will be alternatives to the dollar, and this might be one of them,” said former U.S. congressman Ron Paul. If people start using bitcoins en masse, “it’ll go down in history as the destroyer of the dollar,” Paul added.
It’s unlikely that Bitcoin would replace the dollar or other government-controlled currencies. But it could serve as a kind of universal alternative currency that is accepted everywhere around the globe. Concerned about the dollar’s inflation? Just move your cash to bitcoins and use them to pay your bills instead. Tired of hefty credit card fees? Bitcoin allows transactions that bypass banks.
“That’s the holy grail for people who believe in freer markets and currency,” said Adam Gurri, a libertarian economics writer in New York.
There are no middlemen charging fees to move money between users. You can transfer bitcoins — even infinitesimally small fractions of one — directly to others’ digital wallets.
But don’t expect governments and banks to let Bitcoin take over so easily. Financial institutions will lose business if people stop using their payment systems, and central banks like the U.S. Federal Reserve would lose their ability to help slow and speed up economic activity. Paul expects banks to lobby and authorities to crack down.
“Governments absolutely demand a monopoly on money and credit. They’re not going to give it up easily,” Paul warned. “They will come down hard.”
Interesting times…
Full article here.
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dang. Now can we please FREE IRWIN SCHIFF?
must be backed by something? oh, like your fiat currency, backed by absolutely nothing but the pentagon?
Greenscam doesn't even seem to realize that Bitcoin is not debt-based.
This will go down with his advise to trade fixed mortgages for ARMs. What a fucking clown.
The U.S. dollar is backed by trilions and trillions of dollars of debt. If that isn't backing Greenspan style I don't know what is.
and..."Full Faith and Credit".
A few years ago "Full Faith and Credit" seemed plausible and was not controversial.
We all grew up with "Full Faith and Credit" and it warmed our hearts and dulled our minds.
Now in the new normal "Full Faith and Credit" is ephemeral as fiat...wait...it is fiat. Now "FFaC" has lost its shine, no more warmth, it is vacuous and lacking sense.
Keeping the faith ? (in fiat)
Gold is automatically solitary and unique, Gold doesn't need any crypt-o-math to define its status.
Gold is elementary and doen't need no stinkin' badges (or passwords).
So easy to forget; so good to remind people of. I would have up ticked you twenty times if I could.
And Bitcoin is backed by US Dollars which are backed by Hundreds of Trillions of Debt as Bitcoin trades in Dollars. Furthermore since Bitcoin is tradable in Fiat other than Dollars one can write that it is backed by those other Nation's Debt.
Now I can write the same thing about Gold and it will be equally valid EXCEPT...
The difference is that when the system implodes I will still have Gold, backing nothing, but still very much in demand as it has been throughout the failure of every single Fiat Currency in 6000 years of History as serving as Money.
Bitcoin is a very recent development and I just cannot forecast how it will fare under a Fiat Currency implosion. There is just no History behind it, no History backing it.
In an Currency Implosion Event I just prefer my wealth to be in something which has proven itself dependable. You can choose what you will. But I implore you to choose wisely.
Correct. Gold, silver and bitcoin actually complement each other quite well with differing strengths in "store of wealth" and "medium of exchange" properties. I'm sure quite a few of the early adopters of bitcoin are trading for gold and silver at these prices. These are not stupid people, whatever you may think of them.
Silver For The People
The Bitcoin Channel
Where the fuck is fonestar? :)
Hopefully he's ok.
Guantanimo Bay?
I'm here it's okay. I had some p-work to do.
He had to change his draws after Occidental Mortality beat his ass square!
Good to see you're doing penis work, who's was it, Obama's or Satoshi's?
Imagine a new payments system which could sent cash point-to-point anywhere in the world, for any amount (try $150 million) for about 50 cents fee, can't be blocked by governments, has no intermediaries, no counterparty risk. A payment system made of a billion dollars of IT know-how and hardware.
How much would that payment system be worth? What would be the share price?
But it doesn't have shares, instead the payment system only supports 1 type of currency, and that currency is limited to 21 million units.
The value of those units is clearly greater than zero and less than $1m
How about $1000?
Greenspan is an idiot.
Right, this is how Musk made his first millions. Although, it turns out, it was not the optimum solution.
If I were using it to transfer funds, wouldn't I want the price of bitcoins to be stable?
This tech is on an exponential adoption curve, of course it is not going to go up in a straight line line $1 per day. It is up 9000% this year and still people moan that "it is not stable". It will be much more stable when it plateaus. Jeeeeezzz.
"Imagine a new payments system which could sent cash point-to-point anywhere in the world, for any amount (try $150 million) for about 50 cents fee, can't be blocked by governments, has no intermediaries, no counterparty risk. A payment system made of a billion dollars of IT know-how and hardware."
Now imagine an army of goobermint trolls furiously pounding away at keyboards night and day trying to keep the sheep from figuring out what you just stated. Welcome to the forum.
Silver For The People
The Bitcoin Channel
To regulate how much money is out there, so would MMTers would tell you. The problem is that government spends that money back into the economy...
"If the USA can print it's own 'currency', why does it need to collect taxes?"
Great question. In point of fact, the U.S. in particular, does not need to collect taxes to run its government. Even in these horrible economic times, the global demand for bucky is sky high. I know that the entire conservative blogosphere is absolutely dead-set against modern monetary theory, but if government spending were managed to absorb increased productivity, money could be simply be issued into existence to pay for government spending. We don't need no stinking taxes. The only reason to have more than nominal taxes would be to control inflation.
But, I am fully aware that here, in Ayn's church, blasphemers are burned at the stake and I am likely to enjoy a strongly negative response from all you hard-working taxpayers. Try reading a bit of non-fiction: http://neweconomicperspectives.org/p/modern-monetary-theory-primer.html
Here in "Ayn's church", we understand what you're referring to is a true fiat currency issued by the realm. You left out such a scheme also results in an interest-free monetary system, unlike the private FRN system we have now where our money is "borrowed" into existance and has to be repaid with interest. However, neither system has any practical contraint on the irrisistable urge to print money to buy votes, rather being constrained only by the virtue and good will of both those who print, and those who vote for the printers.
If the government said that you wouldn't go to jail if you paid income taxes in something other than the dollar, the dollar would go out of use to more competitive currencies. Same if the US military stopped caring about if oil was sold for dollars. MMT is total nonsense that does not in any way look at the rich history of money in America over the last 200+ years. This has absolutely nothing to do with Ayn Rand.
"...absorb increased productivity..."
I like this one. You mean "steal increased productivity." If productivity increases, there is more wealth. Why the heck does that need to be managed? Oh no, you might get deflation where your earnings and savings increases in buying power. Oh yeah, what a nightmare! Oh, you've got to control the inflation which should never happen in a modern society with constant tech progress. Inflation means that the theft isn't just robbing people of the added wealth of tech progress but is going beyond that to make those not at the printed money trough poorer when they should be getting wealthier. This is hidden by nominal gains. What you are doing is going full retard in obscuring and confusing the blatant theft of wealth.
MMT policies = Government's the only game in town.
I don't care if it "works". The challenge is to prosper without resorting to that.
Bingo.
The value of Bitcoin is that its value is perceived as beyond the reach of regulatory and tax burdens. I don't belive for one damn New York minute that Greenspan is so unaware.
In fact I suspect the oligarchy has a particularly nasty fate awaiting BTC because of that very fact. IMHO-there's a back door in it somewhere that they're following down the rabbit hole to Borg the non-compliant who demonstrate resistence to complete asimilation.
"IMHO-there's a back door in it somewhere"
Based upon what evidence?
The "Back Door" is Futures Trading....restricted to Commercial Traders. That has been Fast Tracked. They will create Paper Futures Contracts for Bitcoin, that just does not exist, and trade and Short those on the Market.
Since they do that with Gold they can do that with Bitcoin. LMAO.
And the beauty of doing it with Bitcoin....It is a cryptocurrency. Nobody knows whom owns what. It it the perfect vehicle for setting up such a Fraud. It cannot be traced. They just claim that they have it and...voila...who can write any different with proof? A futures market has already been set up for it...Yes that fast.
You guys just have not a clue that you are being played.
Take the bait suckers...take the bait. Hmmmm...New Fish to the Game...new Fish.
That is the reason they do not see this as a threat as...IT HAS BEEN PLANNED...and you...you are being PLAYED.
How can you guys fall for the same Frauds, under different names, repeatedly?
They create a few new winners, a few new millionaires, and then they go for the throats of the late entrants to the Game.
They did this with the ISP Bubble in 1999.
They did this with housing in 2006
They did this with Stocks in 2008.
They did this with Commodities, Gold and Silver, in 2011.
They are doing it again with Housing
They are doing it again whith Stocks.
They are doing it again with ISPs
They are now doing it with Bitcoin.
"New fish to the Game...new Fish."
It is not a Back Door. It is a Front Door, open wide, with an invitation to enter.
"Come on in...it is really comfortable in here. Hungry? No problem. What would you like to eat. It is on the House for our very Special Guests as you. You are a VIP in our Casino Suite. We just could not have this party without you. Why? Because...You are so Special...Didn't you know how special that you are to us?"
"Come into my parlour said the Spider to the Fly."
And I am in the wilderness screaming, "IT IS A FUCKING TRAP!!! DO NOT GO IN." But it is really cold and uncomfortable where I am at. And the chances that you listen to me are nilch. But at least you had a warning.
You will be assimilated by the Federal Reserve and Wall Street Borg. You will be devoured. They have been doing this game for much longer than you and your cryptocurrencies. You are fucking AMATEURS.
And no...You will not win. (Neither will I win if that makes you feel any better.)
"The "Back Door" is Futures Trading....restricted to Commercial Traders. That has been Fast Tracked. They will create Paper Futures Contracts for Bitcoin, that just does not exist, and trade and Short those on the Market."
If they drive the price down, we just buy their coins off of them. If they don't really have the coins they say the do, then the market just shuts them down. The only reason the gold and silver suppression scheme has lasted so long is that they've tricked the stupid sheeple into investing in fake gold and silver (see GLD and SLV). Bitcoiners are a lot smarter than you're average 401k sheep. Nice try. care to try again?
BTW, the Chinese are not fooled either.
Silver For The People
The Bitcoin Channel
"the" back door-is that once your in you can never go out-without paying your taxes and sacrificing your anonymity-at least that is the objective of the Borg.
"dollar bills are reasonably self-validating. I can observe one and if it appears to be a dollar bill, feels correct and has the security features I can be reasonably certain that it is not counterfeit. The Secret Service can determine with a fairly high degree of certainty (and very quickly too) whether a particular bill is real as they can verify the serial number was actually issued and that a bunch of the same serial numbers are not being seen in circulation, but for ordinary commerce this is not necessary; the bill itself has enough unique features so for ordinary purposes it is self-validating.
Bitcoin and other digital currencies are different -- they're just a string of bits. To validate a coin, therefore, I must know that the one you are presenting to me is unique, that it wasn't just made up by you at random but in fact is a valid coin (you were either transferred it and the chain is intact or you personally "mined" it, a computationally-expensive thing to do), and has not been spent by you somewhere else first.
In order to do this the system that implements the currency must maintain and expose a full and complete record of each and every transfer from the origin of that particular coin forward!
This is the only way I can know that nobody else was presented the same token before I was, and that the last transfer made of that token was to you. I must know with certainty that both of these conditions are true, and then to be able to spend that coin I must make the fact that I hold it and you transferred it to me known to everyone as well.
Now consider the typical clandestine transaction -- Joe wishes to buy a bag of pot, which happens to be illegal to transact. He has Bitcoins to buy the pot with. He finds a dealer willing to sell the pot despite it being illegal to do so, and transfers the coins to the dealer. The dealer must verify the block chain of the coins to insure that he is not being given coins that were already spent on gasoline or that Joe didn't counterfeit them, and then he transfers the pot to Joe. There is now an indelible and permanent record of the transfer of funds and that record will never go away.
This creates several problems for both Joe and the dealer. The dealer can (and might) take steps such as using "throw-away" wallets to try to unlink the transfer from his person, but that's dangerous. In all jurisdictions "structuring" transactions to evade money laundering or reporting constraints is a separate and unique crime and usually is a felony. Therefore, the very act of trying to split up transactions or use of "throw-away" wallets in and of itself is likely to be ruled a crime, leaving any party doing that exposed to separate and distinct criminal charges (along with whatever else they can bust you for.)
Second, due to the indelible nature of the records you're exposed for much longer that with traditional currencies to the risk of a bust and in many cases you might be exposed for the rest of your life. In particular if there is a tax evasion issue that arises you're in big trouble because there is no statute of limitations on willful non-reporting of taxes in the United States, along with many other jurisdictions. Since the records never go away your exposure, once you engage in a transaction that leads to liability, is permanent.
Third, because Bitcoin is not state-linked and thus fluctuates in value there is an FX tax issue. Let's say you "buy" Bitcoins (whether for cash or in exchange for a good or service you provide) at a time when they have a "value" of $5 each against the US dollar. You spend them when they have a "value" of $20 each. You have a capital gain of $15. At the time of the sale you have a tax liability too, and I'm willing to bet you didn't keep track of it or report it. That liability never goes away as it was wilfully evaded and yet the ability to track the transaction never goes away either!
Worse, most jurisdictions only permit the taking of a capital loss against other gains, and not against ordinary income taxes. This really sucks because it's a "heads you pay tax, tails you get screwed" situation. This is the inherent problem that gold and other commodities have as "inflation hedges"; the government always denominates its taxes in nominal dollars, not inflation-adjusted ones. The only currency against which there is no FX tax exposure is the one the government you live under uses and denominates its taxes in. That is why the government's issued currency will always be the preferred medium of exchange irrespective of all other competing currencies.
Incidentally, all of this exposure which you take with Bitcoin is very unlike transacting a bag of pot for a $100 bill -- or a gold coin. Unless you're caught pretty much "in the act" once the pot is smoked and the dealer spends the $100 the odds of an ex-post-facto investigation being able to disclose what happened and tie you to the event fades to near-zero.
This never happens with a Bitcoin transaction -- ever.
If that dealer is caught some time later, but still within the statute of limitations for the original offense, you could get tagged. And if the statute of limitations has expired you're still not in the clear if you had a capital gain on the transaction.
There isn't any way to avoid these facts -- they're structural in all digital currencies. And they don't just apply to buying or selling drugs -- they apply to any act that is intended to evade a government's currency or transaction controls. The very thing that makes Bitcoin work, the irrefutable knowledge that a coin is "good" predicated on digital cryptography, is the noose that will go around your neck at the most-inappropriate time.
Those who are using Bitcoin as a means to try to foil currency controls or state prohibitions on certain transactions are asking for a criminal indictment not only for the original evasion act itself but also the possibility of a money-laundering indictment on top of it, and the proof necessary to hang you in a court of law is inherently present in the design of the currency system!
......due to the indelible nature of the records you're exposed for much longer that with traditional currencies to the risk of a bust and in many cases you might be exposed for the rest of your life. In particular if there is a tax evasion issue that arises you're in big trouble because there is no statute of limitations on willful non-reporting of taxes in the United States, along with many other jurisdictions. Since the records never go away your exposure, once you engage in a transaction that leads to liability, is permanent.
.......There isn't any way to avoid these facts -- they're structural in all digital currencies. And they don't just apply to buying or selling drugs -- they apply to any act that is intended to evade a government's currency or transaction controls. The very thing that makes Bitcoin work, the irrefutable knowledge that a coin is "good" predicated on digital cryptography, is the noose that will go around your neck at the most-inappropriate time.
Those who are using Bitcoin as a means to try to foil currency controls or state prohibitions on certain transactions are asking for a criminal indictment not only for the original evasion act itself but also the possibility of a money-laundering indictment on top of it, and the proof necessary to hang you in a court of law is inherently present in the design of the currency system!
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=219284
"Bitcoin and other digital currencies are different -- they're just a string of bits"
99% of all dollars are just a string of bits. Ever try to get more than a few thousand out in cash?
Denninger = Deflationist Dunce
Silver For The People
The Bitcoin Channel
The USA backs it's shit paper with 'Faith & Debt'. *edit* Which reminds me, ... If the USA can print it's own 'currency', why does it need to collect taxes?
-------------------------------
An important point a lot of people forget is that the US military is the single most powerful armed forces in the history of mankind. Believe me, the USD is backed by guns, fighterjets and nuclear weapons. When and if SHTF, a guy with gold isn't going to come out on top; a guy with gun is.
Note on tax... tax is more of an instrument of control than a way to finance government operations. As you noted, OP, the government can print (i.e. it doesn't "need" to collect taxes). However, if they did that (don't collect taxes and just print for whatever they need), people will soon realize the whole game is rigged.
"the US military is the single most powerful armed forces in the history of mankind"
Try repeating that phrase in 5 years and see how many people laugh at you.
Silver For The People
The Bitcoin Channel
Taxes gives the mafia an additional tool for rewarding their friends and punishing their enemies... it also allows the checking of wealth amongst the uppity peasants...
Tales of Satoshi Nakamoto...
Hai! Na-ka-mo-to-SAN!
to keep the people in bondage. Literally. hahaha
Glaring admission that gold has intrinsic value, then he stumbles to explain how the value of fiat is "backed by the issuer". This interview made me chuckle, aside from his Bitcoin opinion.....
yea nope, but not really. lots of people talk on these boards about wanting to return to a gold backed currency. my dream is much smaller. i would just like to see us return to gold backed....gold. paper gold is the real control tool. you can now print gold. think about that.
I predict Greenspan will never attempt to legitimately answer questions on Bitcoin ever again. From now on the Fed-speak will simply respond by saying something extremely vague & laughing off the question like how Bernanke answers questions on gold.
"Full faith and credit"
Your faith
Their credit
Hope and change.
I hope this fiat works !
so when does the new 'tradition' start?
"Glaring admission that gold has intrinsic value.."
He knows that...or at least he did (in 1966). He was just paid a lot in the meantime to "forget" it. But it's all coming back to him now. Kinda like blowback or something.
"City employees in Vicco, Kentucky could be receiving their paychecks in the form of Bitcoin as early as this month after officials there agreed on Monday to begin compensating the chief of police with the emerging crypto-currency.
City officials said on Monday this week that there won’t be a problem with paying Vicco Police Chief Tony Vaughn electronically using Bitcoin, an online-only digital form of currency that has in recent months been accepted at an increasing number of retailers around the world.
Bitcoin allows users to securely pay for goods and services with near total anonymity, all while avoiding the regulations and restrictions often imposed by state-controlled currencies, such as the dollar."
http://rt.com/usa/vicco-kentucky-bitcoin-salary-725/
man the world has gone stone fucking crazy....
There's a new sherrif in town..
"The Issuer"... Federal Stooges with the full faith and backing of the Banksters in charge.
Alan made me laugh out loud for real for the first time today. Such a comedian!
And by comedian you mean CON ARTIST.
Ron Paul is a low functioning retard. /sarc
Backed by the faith of people worldwide who choose to use it instead of fiat.
Bitcoin: backed by progress?
Http://goldsilverbitcoin.com
Paging John Conner for the technology vs real money speech.
He is as baffled about BTC as I am baffled about fiat.
Both are in a bubble.
"Full Faith and Credit" is no more or less perplexing backing Fiat. If you can't touch it....get in touch with your precious (metals).
The US backed the greenbacks through superior firepowers. Another word, extortion .
Don't forget the petrodollar, enforced by the same military firepower. Along with a little bit of CIA ugly job.
EAT A FUCKING BAG OF DICKS YOU PIECE OF SHIT GREEDSCAM!
Thanks for the down vote Alan! I'll wear it as a badge of courage. I'll be praying to Allah that you die soon.
FOAD
Gold is worthless by itself. It only has value because it is hard to produce, looks pretty, and people will be willing to exchange their labor for it. The paper dollar is worthless. It is easy to produce, looks ugly, and more and more people do not want to accept it in trade for their labor. 'Nuff said.
"Gold is worthless by itself"
You get the Full Retard Award for dumbest comment of the year on gold.
It is worthless by itself. Before cavemen came to be dazzled by its shiny-ness and scarcity, gold was just another element like carbon or lead. If I bury gold but forget the location, that gold becomes worthless until somebody else happens to stumble upon it. The universe is vast and contains much gold, but only the gold accessible to mankind is valued by mankind.
> Gold is worthless by itself
true, if you're a cro-magnon caveman looking for food.
We homo-sapiens-sapiens have been valueing it for thousands of years. Same for arts, flowers, a smile, a good laugh, etc.
That is called civilization.
Of the metals, only silver and copper have better electrical conductivity. It has the highest oxidation resistance of any metal. Gold/tin eutectic solder melts at 283°C and gold/germanium solder at about 365°C. If it were not for its scarcity, gold would be much more heavily used in the electronics and chemical industries due to its superior properties.
PMs really are quite the miracle of nature. Fascinatingly under appreciated, even by many honest money advocates (both real and posing.) Nothing else has their properties which is why they are so perfect....preaching to the choir (in large part) I know, but it's just so damn clear and almost no one (that I know in the human world) gets it!
bill? is zat you?
"miracle of nature"
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Revelation 14 King James Bible
Silver For The People
The Bitcoin Channel
You're making the assumption that electricity will be available. The more I read these boards the more sure I am that electricty is not part of teh future.
Electricity will be available. It will just be more expensive than to that which we are accustomed. We are just going to become more efficient with less waste.
A Currency Collapse will not bring about the End of the World. The Standard of Living will decline dramatically for most. The trick is not to be one of the most in the aftermath.
Hopefully you will get some clues on how to avoid that fate through the education provided here, and, elsewhere on the Internet. Some, here, will do one hell of a lot better than most whom are here and most whom are not here.
Be discerning of any advice given here. Many, here, are just overgrown kids living in their Parents' Basement. That was exposed a few weeks ago in the Comments Section of a Different Article. They are seeking guidance instead of going out and becoming guides.
Hah! Stop the Presses! Mr Magoo is baffled ...again
It is backed by hot air.
Every pundit misses the point. Bitcoin is backed by the blockchain. This is the inherent beauty in this system nobody that seems to be understand.
The NSA had nothing to do with that?
Can't help but wonder if this is their way of pumping up bitcoin even. They know that the masses aren't trusting them much anymore. If they talk up bitcoin, people might be more cautious but if they talk bubble, well we can't trust these guys so let's get in!
I've no idea really though but I'd stick with the periodic table.
Oh, they get it. They are simply the PTB foot soldiers front running myths to obfuscate the end of empire.
The difference between a Pyramid Scheme and Multi-Level Marketing is that MLM offers a TANGIBLE PRODUCT. Pyramid Scemes do not. That is by LAW, set by the US Supreme Court, after the Government went after Amway as a Pyramid Scheme.
Bitcoin operates in the ether and nothing is tangible about it. The Main Stream Media, to my knowledge, has not pointed that FACT out. In other words...BITCOIN IS ILLEGAL and can be shut down. But it is NOT SHUT DOWN.
SOMETIMES WHAT THE MAIN STREAM MEDIA FAILS TO REPORT SCREAMS MUCH LOUDER THAN THAT WHICH IS REPORTED.
The reason that it is NOT PROSECUTED or NOT EXPOSED is that Bitcoin is a PLANNED FRAUD by Wall Street and the Federal Reserve. Nobody PROSECUTES FRAUD on Wall Street. Hell, they are already Fast Tracking a "Futures Market" for Bitcoin. If they cannot shut it down then they will just absorb it, assimilate it, and profit from it.
They will create Paper Bitcoin and trade those, manipulating the price, and making gains...JUST LIKE THEY DO WITH EVERYTHING ELSE...including Gold. (I just love that Plunge Protection Team. Don't you?)
Yes I WILL AGREE. The inherent beauty of Bitcoin is that it is backed by the blockchain. It is the perfect set up for a Wall Street FRAUD as nobody can know who owns what. If the Futures Exchange claims to own Bitcoin nobody can prove it or disprove it. It is the perfect set up for the Perfect Fraud.
And you...well if you don't know who the sucker is in a game...YOU ARE THE SUCKER. LMAO.
Greenspan: "To Be Worth Something, It Must Be Backed By Something"
Yeah, liberty and freedom, jackass
The dollar is backed by the US government. Meaning they will break your balls if you try to use anything else as currency. Bitcoin will be broken into bits.
yes, that is one of bitcoin's strengths, it is divisible to 8 decimal places.
I'm not a BTC investor, but my understanding is this: Based on the limited supply that will exist in whatever year they're all hashed, and the gazillions of GigaWatts it took to mine them all, they'll basically be worth what they 'cost' to bring into existence. Am I close?
Who knows what they'll be worth, but the bitcoin system has the potential to revolutionise the legal and banking system. Stefan Molyneux has a good video on this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs6F91dFYCs
I love Stefan Molyneux as you can see from my avatar. But personally I'm still on the fence, not convinced, when it comes to Bitcoin. I'm all for competing currencies though. I'll take what the free market will give me. But it does have to be the free market for me. Seems to me that lately, Governments are eyeing Bitcoin.
Anyway, I'm neither a supporter nor a detractor of Bitcoin.
awesome.
i thought that was a photo of stefan first time i saw it, but hard to tell with tiny zh photos.
"But personally I'm still on the fence"
Too bad. You could have mined a few thousand by now if you weren't too lazy to investigate something new and do some thinking.
Silver For The People
The Bitcoin Channel
They'll be worth whatever you'll be able to exchange for them or what you'll be willing to part with them for. Sunk mining costs have no bearing on value -- unless miners choose to restrict supply by to withholding freshly mined coins from circulation until price matches their targets. But any bitcoin owner can also supply the market.
Miners will always be needed in a bitcoin world as they are the only provider of the new blocks within which to record transactions. Users can expect transaction fees to increase once the last bitcoin is mined; miners currently receive 25 bitcoins per block found, once those are gone, why bother mining?
They will mine bitcoin for the transaction fees. One might expect Bitcoin to be much more valuable at that point -- circa 2035 -- and transaction fees would be a valuable source of income. This is also why I believe a peg between BTC and gold will establish itself. When BTC transaction fees become too onerous, some customers and businesses will bite the bullet and pay the shipping costs for gold. At any rate the block rewards gradually decrease over periods of years so we'll be able adjust -- if needed.
-- or miners can just mine bitcoin for the hell of it because they believe in the currency and can afford to.
Bubbles!... Bubbles?...
I thought he said their was no such thing as "Bubbles" in this economy?!!!
just an old man in his dottage...
DaddyO
Mr. Potato Head caused his share of misery in the world on behalf of his blood-sucking constituents. You know they are trotting this dessicated cunt out to run his suckhole for a reason. I wonder why.
Seek, ZH has allowed me to LOL from my office three times today ... the ACA threads are worth their weight imvho.
That was the most surreal thing i've ever seen!
guess you never saw this:
http://youtu.be/ouBZ-YqOnsU
Why can't this old fuck just die?!
Why does anyone talk to this old fool?
The Wrinkled Old Fuck just won't die, too bad.
I wonder who will go first, him or Hkissinger?
Bitcoin is fully backed by the LACK of faith in the government issuing the currency. There is no shortage of lack of trust
hi
lari
us!
I knew he was still alive, but didn't realize he could still talk. Oh well, tomorrow is another day.
Forrest - Rock The Boat - Forrest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY34h4npvi4
Buckcherry - Crazy Bitch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8IGQWyBILE
I'm reminded of the poor Canadian reporter who was caught on tape having to say "Gold is backed by nothing." Or something like that.
The dumbest journalist ever says gold is backed by nothing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiXIs3bbETA
My face hurts from smiling and my abs hurt from laughing. Thanks Alan
F*ck this nutcase, ex-cult member to Rand's ramblings = a bunch of capitalistic distorted paranoid lunatics. The USD is doomed, these academic crazies have destroyed the concept of capitalism. Bitcoin maybe a bubble, it's only becuase the FED will soon own all the USTs. You read that you nut! The FED is trying to take out all the safe havens to be replaced with 'stocks' as a safe haven. Yelland will attempt do it i.e her neg-rates polices
I can smell a book-burning mf
Dear old Allen should start his own currency called 'bubblecoin'.
And back it with the space between his ears.
Which would be a new frontier, where no man has gone before. But I think it'd be devoid of the new life, and civilization of any kind.
By the guy who helped create and didn't see the bubbles while heading the Fed.
Not surprised- he was baffled by the stock market and the real world, too......
The mining difficulty is starting to increase in a major way, there must be a nice bit of hardware coming on line.
That hardware and operating costs are increasing indeed. Millions of dolllars of worldwide equipment, and Greenspan says it's backed by nothing... cause he's a dinausor... he don't get 1's and 0's don't just solve themselves over the internet with eliptical curve guessing games.
I was unsure about Bitcon's future. Now, I am. Anything the douche doesn't like is good enough for me!!!
I agree in a humorous way and enjoy your comment. I also see some practical value to that sentiment as well. I'm more and more interested in Bitcoin the more I see it trashed by the "holier than thou" crowd. I don't say this just to be a contrarian or say "fuck the establishment". I say it because I believe Bitcoin's ultimate value will in part evolve from how much we (meaning the world's general population) trust each other versus how much we trust the system.
Cue all of the laughter and mockery at what I am about to type:
Bitcoin is backed by the collective faith and trust among the world's population, within the world's population, and between the world's population in a peer-to-peer sense where the use of and faith in bitcoin establishes its "backing" knowing full well there is an organized, responsible, and coherent strategy, timeline, and plan as to its ultimate amount of supply on the market. In other words - it's backed by the faith and confidence of all of its users in that it does represent both a store of value and medium of exchange.
Not unlike FB where plenty of people don't necessarily "have to" use it they kinda do "because all of their friends and familiy members are there".
So what backs the USD? I know, I know they can send tanks into the street and have the IRS and NSA harass the shit out of you, but in what direction is confidence/trust heading when a) publicly they tell you they print an extra $85B/month when it is likely a lot more behind the scenes, and b) one human being or a small group of human beings can change how much will or will not be printed with a few taps on their Ipads with their dickbeaters.
I'm not saying Bitcoin will take over the world but I know I am opening my mind up to the possibility that the "backing" of a legit global, crypto currency can be established by the forces developed in a "peer-to-peer" fashion. I'm trying to wrap my mind around what "backs" bitcoin is this is what I got so far.
Offer me one bitcoin versus whatever its trading at in dollars/euros/pounds/etc. and I (along with anyone on the street) would take the cash without a second thought. BTC has a ways to ride before it craps the bed and by all means if you've got the risk tolerance to speculate go for it, but the hilarious thing to me from the start of this craze has been this: tech moves fast. It used to take thousands of square feet to get a computer going. The 8 bit NES was extraordinary tech at one point in time. Is BTC future proof based on today's encription and processing power versus what the world will have in ten to twenty years time?
It's all too complicated for your small mind. Stick to monopoly money kiddo.
Can't take a difference of opinion so you insult?! How many bitcoins do you "own" in your digital wallet? What's your average entrance price? Do you mine or trade, both maybe? You're like the RE agent who says its always time to buy or the troll riding on the coattails of Zynga or Groupon. If you want to give an opinion do so, or enlighten me with your wisdom since you appear to have an intimate grasp!!
It's too complicated, you will never be able to wrap your small mind around it. You don't get it. You don't get it. I said it three times so it will sink in. Just like the so called 'school' that you attended. You get paid in FIAT, because you are a lover Bernanke's funny bucks. ah... this is not personal, only your small mind took it that way and displays its ignorance elgantly with every keystroke.
"It's too complicated, you will never be able to wrap your small mind around it."
Sounds like the same thing a fiat paper money banker would say.
CDO's, CMO's, SIV's, SIFI, MBS, ABS, QE, etc, etc, etc...
Hell, do the Bankers even understand it? So when I see this said about Bitcoin, it makes me feel a little leary. I think that money is pretty simple to understand. For example, either you have it or you don't. Pretty simple. Computer systems and programming on the other hand is pretty complex.
Perhaps it could be said that capital is a little more complex issue than money. But sure enough, bankers have managed to rehypothicate that into the ether as well.
no it is just funny laughing at the village idiots here left after the gold crash.. they seem stranded and gone mad
BitCoin is simple, but too complicated for his feable mind. The poster still can't figure it out. It's almost 4 years old now.
Use your fucken brain. There's a thing called the internet. The comment makes no sense. If he can't figure out BitCoin then too bad. A whole bunch of kids wanted to play with rockets and they flunked math... the poster would like everyone to think that math is all of a sudden flawed. The poster is a defective unit that needs to be sent back to his maker.
BitCoin is too complicated to the lay folk. Anyone that asks questions and expects answers should try ask.yahoo.com instead of this medium.
"A whole bunch of kids wanted to play with rockets and they flunked math"
1000+
ROFL
Thanks for nailing that. How many are just too stupid to understand? Sadly most. And a large number of others are either too afraid to speak the truth, or are so committed to the dying system that they are completely compromised. Peter Schiff? Oh well, one day maybe their dinosaur bones will make a nice theme park ;-)
Silver For The People
The Bitcoin Channel
You can't even answer your own questions .. ever hear of Google? Brains? Think it through.
Its a (possibly a good) attempt at a completely cyber (instantly transferable globally is the benefit)version of what gold is in the physical world. Only real difference is that the exact "number" is fixed, although anything exists down to the parts it can be divided into and still remain useful - being that a btc can be divided infinitely (right?) and every ounce of physical gold would have an actual limit of (visible/usable) units, therefore could be argued more fixed.
Anyway it's still purely cyber and therefore has real world transaction limitations and restriction and the real world wins .
If you want to gamble, get into btc and hope to get out when you profit. If you want to save, well I think you know what to do.
ok. not bill.
(either that or this subject is really hard for people like allen AND still to wrap their lil' heads around .... he was lost @ "infinte divisibility")
quarkcoin my ass!
Based on conventional methods of cracking encryption, even if you could drum up as much computer-cracking power as you wanted, it would take more energy than the total output of the sun to bust a single person's private key. Non-conventional encyryption breaking (e.g. quantum computing) offers an interesting challenge, but if it ever progresses far enough to be a threat, the blockchain can be easily ported over to a new protocol that uses a different crypto scheme.
Bitcoin's encryption is its smallest risk, IMO.
I heard bitcoins were backed by S&H greenstamps, so it's all good.
40 more books and I'm getting the canoe
Two points, #1. If money is free, it is no longer money. #2 BitCoin is not money, it's tradition.
point #2 brought to you by Bernanke et Ron Paul testimoney (ahah) on the rise in price of gold in Federal Reserve Notes (fiat funny money).
Pretty soon the only value of US dollars will be that you can buy BitCoin with them..
If the only value of the dollar was to buy bit coin, then both would be worthless.
If you dumb, you are real dumb. You can just transact from BitCoin to BitCoin.
Why the fuk does anyone need a curly haired middle man sticking his hooves in everyone's transactions and taking a cut?
I forget.
"If you dumb"
Dumb, or perhaps the poster is an employee of the "curly haired middle man" ?
Silver For The People
The Bitcoin Channel
Time to muzzle Greenspan. I couldn't be happier.
It would be so easy to see the faith evoporate.
Get Greenspan, Yellen, and Bernanke in the same room and throw in a gallon of Whisky.
Come back in an hour and start taking notes and recording.
By morning the whole fiat faith based debt facade would collapse like the Matrix.
And think, this moron is an Ayn Rand disciple. She is ROLLING in her grave
To be bailed out - you have to know somebody
Oh my, what 8 years out of public office will do. He speaks about gold in a way that he never would have dare to during his mandate. But he failed when he mentionned "intrisic value". Austrian economics itself says there is no such thing as intrisic value. Gold has value because it fits certain demands in terms of being money (portable, durable, divisible, etc.) and other industrial processes. Without humans creating an economy and a culture valuing these criterias, gold would be useless.
I did not invest in Bitcoins yet, but I think what backs it is exactly the same thing that "backs" gold: it fits a certain market demand for a currency with a pretended untracability, decentralization but has no intrisic value absent such demands.
The same is true with gold.
Some just bought 14,105 Btc's on Bitstamp. Holy shit. Sounds like some trading guilds are coming and they aint just for mining.
Similar to gold in the cyber world, but it ends there. Useful perhaps, but to become money (after debt failure, let's pretend) it will never hold up.....Physical existence is a highly under appreciated element in these days of technological wows..
Gold is real world production. Same with any other good or service, but you can't store, trade, account, divide etc with anything else, that's its value (despite industrial application).
It cannot be replicated. The desire of bit coin is to be able to easily transfer value anywhere instantly. This should be available in a free world society with or without bit coin, it is dependent only on the internet and the LAWS.
Show yourself fool " but it ends there." ... you speak nonsense.
BitCoin is mined into existance debt free, so it' by definition not debt money, and all accounts can be made whole.
Conversly, fiat money is borrowed into existance, so it's by definition debt money that can never be repaid due to compound interest. Not all accounts can be made whole, always some people being kicked off the board in order to keep the Central Banking scheme going.
You act like humanity has run out of ideas and it will be stuck with Central Banking for all eternity. It's not your fault, and your ignorance may only be temporary.
"your ignorance may only be temporary"
Trust me, these people are not ignorant. Evil? perhaps. Paid? Could be. Jealous? likely. But ignorant I don't buy.
Silver For The People
The Bitcoin Channel
Just a few observations on bitcoin. I dont want to call it a scam but think about this . I create something that I know how t0 make for free then I tell people about it in hope it will catch on, I continue to make more. Now the people, like myself who dont have the knowlege to get them for free are forced to pay for them if I want them, so I am giving money to someone that got them for free.
Also they say that its cheaper to send wit BC, but unless I have them already which I dont I have to transfer money which costs and since the swings are so volitial I would need to transfer money everytime I wanted to send so as not to lose money, sure I can gain but who knows. So tranfering to BC is the same as transfering elsewhere.
If everyone had access to it on a level playing field I would feel better about it, but since I have to pay for it while others got it for free just doesnt seem right.
They didn't get it for free, they mined it. Granted it was rediculously easy at first, but then they had to convince a pizza shop to accept some. After they passed the code to open source it became much harder to mine the coins later because of the math involved in solving. The ones that got them for 'free' created the concept. Why didn't you? Why didn't I? Because I didn't know how. They did and they got lucky. Really lucky.
There is that whole currency control thingy.
When was the last time you tried to take more than 10K of YOUR own $$ out of the U.S.?
Who exactly got BitCoins for free? WTF are you talking about.
The fucken banks got free money. In the fucken trillions.
-Seriously though, nobody cares what you think. I hope you know that by now.
"I know how t0 make for free"
You are assuming that they can still make them for free. Otherwise think of them as an IPO payoff, You are part of the IPO, you get paid off big.
The existing system has the politicians and the Banksters getting perpetual IPO. You like that better?
For me, I would love to remove the manipulability of paper gold, but I can 't so anything I can do to stick it to the man, I do.
Has the collective IQ here been diminished considerably while I slept?
23 A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.
Proverbs 12 King James Bible
Silver For The People
The Bitcoin Channel
Hehe heh ehe he heheehehhe.
He said "bitcoin".
Mark this day.
How come no one plays Knockout on this lying douchebag?
Ya, somebody like Rodderick Tatum!