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Bitcoin Crashes, Loses Half Of Its Value In Two Days
It was inevitable that a few short days after Wall Street lovingly embraced Bitcoin as their own, with analysts from Bank of America, Citigroup and others, not to mention the clueless momentum-chasing, peanut gallery vocally flip-flopping on the "currency" after hating it at $200 only to love it at $1200 that Bitcoin... would promptly crash. And crash it did: overnight, following previously reported news that China's Baidu would follow the PBOC in halting acceptance of Bitcoin payment, Bitcoin tumbled from a recent high of $1155 to an almost electronically destined "half-off" touching $576 hours ago, exactly 50% lower, on very heave volume, before a dead cat bounce levitated the currency back to the $800 range, where it may or may not stay much longer, especially if all those who jumped on the bandwagon at over $1000 on "get rich quick" hopes and dreams, only to see massive losses in their P&Ls decide they have had enough.
Which incidentally, like gold, is to be expected when one treats what is explicitly as a currency on its own merits in a world of dying fiat - with the appropriate much required patience - instead of as an asset, with delusions of grandure that some greater fool will pay more for it tomorrow than it is worth today. Sadly, in a world of HFT trading, patience is perhaps the most valuable commodity.
As for Bitcoin, while the bubble may or may not have burst, and is for now kept together with the help of the Winklevoss bros bid, all it would take is for another very vocal institutiona rejection be it in China or domestically, where its "honeypot" features are no longer of use to the Fed or other authorities, for the euphoria to disappear as quickly as it came...
Two day chart, showing the epic move from $1155 to $576 in hours:
And longer term chart showing the overnight action in its full glory:
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You know the price when you have it in your hand.
"And BTW silver went from $50 to $19. What percentage drop is that?"
Overnight?
(One and Only) I just purchased a 100oz silver bullion bar from AMEX at ~ $19 (higher due to shipping and credit card).
Will you be buying 100 bitcoins at $500 per coin today?
Try to answer honestly.
jb
Y, increased holdings at $666
You're right. I prefer Chinese water torcher too. Watch it happen over years.
One And Only said:
Or, as it is known stateside, Chinese water flashlighter.
Largely, yeah. Did you forget the Sunday Night Massacre? Went from $49 to what? 27 I think? And that is in something that is a lot less volatile than bitcoin. BTC has been known to double in a week, then do it again the next week.
Buy low, sell high. Don't let the sour grapes taint your perpective. BTC will continue to grow in use as more and more countries impose currency controls. That is the FUNDAMENTAL DRIVING FORCE for this rally, even if it has been taken over by speculators.
Most bloggers are not knowledgeable or smart enough to know that speculators are the high-frequency component (that causes fast deviations), and who are only part of the market.
In this case, it is these people (speculators) who either made or lost fiat, depending on their entrance and exit points.
Tyler should have told you that, since most here are not aware of this Normalcy in a libertarian free market: volatility, speculation and price discovery.
/ If you can't take the heat... stick to stocks. Or gold & silver. Where one won't make you fiat, the other one will. / sarc + serious
Nice reply, + 1
I am in BTC at an average of $800 so am now down. Will I sell? No way. Probably buy, especially if we go lower. Atsome point (soon?) I will try to buy some gold with some BTC.
I do understand that BTC is not a Store of Value, at least not yet. I am learning about BTC for other reasons. So, in my case I am not speculating. I am learning. BTC may (or may not) turn into something very interesting to me.
We were at $150 two months ago.
We are definitely crashing in the right direction.
Sounds like we're on the "same page" on this.
I bought a bit of bitcoin a few weeks ago, ~$800. Mostly for 'fun' and gaining experience (start small, then scale up). When I started the shop+buy process, it was ~600. Was 'pissed' that it went to $800 by the time I actually had it in my wallet, cause it meant that I got less btc for my fixed-dollar purchase. When it went to >$1100 I had no intention of selling, and was actually unhappy that it rose faster than I had a chance line up cash for buying some more.
And like the guy above says, btc is a tad harder to track and steal by an "Ex" or lawyers. Given that mine has threatened me with the "D" word so many times -- if my revenue/income stream does not rebound to the "Mrs Modern Shopper" level that she is used to -- I find btc more attractive by the day. Especially since she had the brazen audacity to track down some of The Precious in the safe. Which is mostly my dad's PM (he's very old & demented), since I get to play/invest with his fiat, but she does not believe it, or chooses not to. She used to have the Cash-register eyes, but she now has that "Golden eye" look. [sigh]
As I mentioned a day or two ago, the US is in no danger of running short on Gold, given its abundance of "gold diggers". ;-)
Besides its dependency on the power grid, this is another problem that I have with bitcoin, the velocity of the "money" in respect to its price volitility.
disclaimer: bitcoin neutral
Oh, we're all speculators.
Wanna know the best way to sell a call option on half of your net worth?
Marriage.
Speaking of which, bitcoin is a fabulous way to NOT give your significant other half of your assets in a divorce. You see, I forgot my passphrase when I hit my head in a canoe accident, all of my gold sunk too.
Well, at least the silver bugs have 5000 years of "network" building on their side in the long run. I am by no means a Bitcoin hater, but the "network" gives it value argument leaves a lot to be desired.
If you want to be an effective shill, you'll need to come up with something other than tortured analogies in order to bolster your case.
Did silver go from $50 to $19 in a few days?
Does bitcoin have intrinsic value, including widespread industrial uses?
Does bitcoin have a several thousand years history as a store of value, and use as sound money?
Those are rhetorical questions, by the way.
Does bitcoin have intrinsic value, including widespread industrial uses?
Some cryptocurrencies most certainly do.
Namecoin works works like distributed DNS aka it decentralizes the ICANN and turns it into peer 2 peer DNS.
You register a domain name for 0.01 namecoins. Then transactions occur when you transfer dns names. It allows websites to bypass being blocked by traditional internet censorship methods, you can't sieze dns names with this setup. Just wait until it gets tailored for other things like email, etc. It allows you to create a decentralized distribution/communication platform with a builtin in currency as part of it.
Primecoin mining is like seti@home and that math work will most likely eventually be translated into industral processes or other digital applications as the need arises. It's main aim is to find chains of prime numbers.
You may ask why is that important.
http://primes.utm.edu/notes/faq/why.html
But you one trick ponies can't see the forest for the trees.
Based on your response, you should create a new cryptocurrency called StrawManCoin.
And based on your questions you should create a cryptocurrency called Loadedcoin.
Does bitcoin have a several thousand years history as a store of value, and use as sound money?
You damn well know that can't be answered one way or the other at this point and we'll both be dead well before that one can be answered. Using it as a justification is disingenous at a minimum. I'd call that more in line with being a Straw man.... At least I provided real tangible examples that one can try to refute.
And yes it Silver didn't depreciate overnight but it's general trend has been depreciation while bitcoin's general trend has been appreciation over the same time period. Trying using a longer trend to make a point about short term movement is also disingenous and strawman like also.
http://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/yearly_graphs.plx
https://blockchain.info/charts/market-price?timespan=all&showDataPoints=...
That is a fair apples to apples comparison of asset prices over the same time period until your loaded question where you can't make a fair apples to apples comparison to answer the question.
The thrust of that particular rhetorical question should have been obvious even to the most ardent BC supporters. It's patently absurd to suggest that because BC is a nascent cryptocurrency, its extremely short history, especially in relation to PMs, is somehow not relevant. Anyone who imagines that BC is remotely stable has already been slapped in the head, and it won't be the last time.
Using BC's meteoric rise in value compared with any other asset class is equally absurd. You might as well argue that because you bet the Jaguars to beat the Texans last Thursday night, all other investments spanning the same time period were deeply inferior.
What you just spewed out is totally meaningless to me when I am off the grid. DNS,ICANN, chains of prime numbers ?!?!?
Can you eat them ? How the fuck is that going to help me catch a fish, kill a deer or grow some vegatables ? WTF ?
Better yet, when I mosey on down to my neighbors farm, and want to pick up some eggs and chickens, it will be either trade him/her some fish or deer meat, or purchase with something tangible....ain't no way that neighbor is going to be a 20 year old kid with a virtual wallet. At least not in the places I will be living. Unless they figured out a way to farm and eat virtual food.
yesterday, i traded some packets of unmodified seeds for harvested red peppers with my neighbor. worked fine for both of us.
Glad to hear that JB. Perfect 'Gentlemen like' type transaction.
Some out there cannot phathom a simplified lifestyle where people actually communicate with one another via that antiquated way known as talking, and have face to face transactions that benefit both sides equally.
Most of us are not rich like you are, to afford a "Gentleman" lifestyle.
We get our food from the grocery store, where they take paper money (private-issue confetti) or cyber-currency (aka Credit, Debit or EBT card).
We do this even though the world will end any day now and the sky has been falling for years.
"Does bitcoin have a several thousand years history as a store of value, and use as sound money?"
Horses had several thousand years of history as a mode of transportation, and then the automobile was invented. I'm sure similar comments to yours were made around 1900. You can still use your horse though, but many choose not to.
So how did that work out on Lamborghini Newport's P&L? I wonder if the guy can sell his Tesla back to them and make some cash? LOL.
I bet the Lamborghini dealership caused the price swing when they cashed out those coins........
I've said it before and I'll say it again the real next test is a liquidity test not price swings.
there are more bit-coins than there are dollars once you divide them up, the"bitcoin liquidity" argument is moot.
You miss the point if there are 800 coins on an exchange at for arguments sake at $100 a coin. The exchange needs to have at least $80,000 in reserve if everyone decides to cash out at once. That is the test when enough of those coins cash out at once how things play out is going to be the telling part. As long as the demand is there the price swings are moot since newer buyers will come in and buy up those coins.
115k coins traded for fiat on Mt.Gox today. Seems fairly liquid, just not enough high bids to hold the price up.
As long as enough cash is coming in from outside sources yes. When everyone cashes out and there is no to little flow in that is the test.
You can only take $1000 out every 20 days from MtGox, so cashing out could take you years. I do not understand why it is still used, and why it is still quoted as "The Price". I hear they are improving, but still a real bottleneck.
Bitstamp is the real USD price these days. If you look at the charts, you can see bitstamp price is waay more stable than mtgox, as is btc china.
Wrong. Little guys can take $200k/month out of Mt. Gox. Talk to them reasonably and they'll get you in with the V.I.P. group.
You are right I did miss the point.
Of course you can sub-divide a bit-coin into .000000000000000001, if you wish, but do you really think the grocery store is going sell you a gallon of milk for .00000000000000001 bit-coin? You really do not understand "liquidity", do you?
What? How much did a Tesla cost in Bitcoins a couple of days ago - 40? Selling 40 Bitcoins crashed the price from 1200+ to 500+?
"I've said it before and I'll say it again the real next test is a liquidity test not price swings."
And you were spot on with that call. The takedown yesterday looked designed to absorb most of the liquidity immediately prior to sucker-punching MtGox with a massive order. I don't think this was an accident.
As for the dealership, I'm sure it fine. Since no doubt that sale was financed by an owner or partner who " needed to get into bitcoin". The partner fronted the dollars to the dealership in exchange for them accepting bit coin and then flipping them to him. Perhaps even money laundering was at play.
Who knows, they might have thrown a big old bag of Coca in the trunk for good will. You know, for the effort.
Southern California is closer to .... and further away from Silicone Valley.
They got trash for trash.
No tort there.
Yep, it looks like an even up trade. The question was which would burst into flames and crash first, the bitcoin or the tesla
Bitcoin will eventually reach it's true value...
ZERO
So will Gold.
Wherever the banks want it.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-11-25/how-gold-price-manipulated-duri...
G'luck
LOL!
Banks hoard gold.. NOT bitcoins.
Stop pretending.
Banks set the price of gold and governments confiscate it. Ask FDR.
Good story bro.
Only 15 to 20% of all the people owning gold in 1933 turned it in to the government. Yes, it was illegal for them to hold gold, but that did not stop them from breaking the law.
75% of all statistics I've heard over the years are made up.
If you were caught in the posession of gold it was a felony and you were going to jail. So what's the fun in that?
5000+ years and waiting.
Bitcoin Nov. 7 to Dec. 7 "post-crash" performance: up 133%.
Zero WHAT, exactly?
Dollars? You really think dollars are better than bitcoins?
Interesting that you bit-people only compare BTC against the dollar, never against real commodities. I guess it is so because in terms of loafs of bread or gallons of milk BTC is at present worth precisely ZERO (that's how much food you can buy with 1 BTC in a foodstore), unless you first exchange your imaginary "currency" for FRNs and then go shopping.
Not that I care, mind you, you're absolutely free to continue catching falling knives.
Your ignorance is staggering. Bitcoin has many of the same qualities as gold. This very morning I wrote up a post ranking gold, silver, bitcoin, and dollars in the various aspects of money. The conclusion was that gold is better money than bitcoin, but bitcoin is better than silver, and that that will change with the stabilization that comes with bitcoin reaching some plateau, whether that is full adoption or ecommerce dominance, or whatever. http://www.tfmetalsreport.com/comment/369449#comment-369449
Note also that by your logic, gold is "at present worth precisely ZERO", because you can't go into a store and buy anything with it without changing it over to FRNs first.
Your delusion is mindblowing! I have farmers in my surrounding that accept bullion (both gold and silver, depends on the quantity they're selling) and that's how I pay them when I'm filling my freezer with fresh home-grown beef before the winter.
"The conclusion was that gold is better money than bitcoin, but bitcoin is better than silver, and that that will change with the stabilization that comes with bitcoin reaching some plateau"
Good luck with that, hope you'll be alive to see it. And wake me up when scientists discover the atomic number of BTC (I suspect however that it's 666).
Your goalposts are attached to warp drives, friend.
Why so angry? Are you afraid of bitcin? Fear it will steal the future value of your gold? It won't. They have different values, and compliment each other perfectly, but the whole package of bitcoin+gold will only succeed in destroying dollar hegemony if gold holders accept it. The choice is between electronic dollars at a financial institution overseen by the government, or bitcoins. Which way would you prefer to make purchases and transfer wealth across borders?
The perfect Dollar-killer: Gold + BTC. Need both, IMO.
What one won't do (in damage), the other one will: Both take fiat out of the VoM game and foster a Parallel Economy. And we all know how desperate the Fed and their CB friends are to use QE to ignite VoM, and how much they hate competition.
Read the BTC-bashing posts accordingly, where you hold either the writer's Intellect/Igorance or Integrity/Agenda in question. A true libertarian/Libertarian would rejoice at bitcoin's success, not lament or attack it.
Ill be giving 'invisible coins' for Xmas this yr..........donated to me by the 'Human Fund'
This is amazing! I didn't even need to buy it this time for it to crash. My power is growing!
"Don't tell me the valuations... it is trending."
Down!
Buy this asset:
Gold
"How Gold Price Is Manipulated During The 'London Fix'"
"Every business day in London, five banks meet to set the price of gold"
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-11-25/how-gold-price-manipulated-duri...
Good shit.
Feeling a little bitter, are we?
Calling ZH admins to ban this spamming shithead, since people have been banned for less...
P.S. Free francis_sawyer!
Ban me for what?
Posting their own article?
Kill yourself.
And exactly what does paper gold manipulation has to do with your beloved imaginary currency?
Your IQ must be lower than Dubya's.
I'm not buying gold from you for any price more than what it's trading for on the exchange. If that price is based on a "paper" price then tough shit ass wipe.
Your gold is worth what banks say it is worth.
In fact FDR confiscated every citizen's gold and the bank gave it a price; $26 per ounce.
I don't know why I'm trying to teach a dumbass history though.
Hey fuckface, I bet you've never tried to buy real gold and discover the actual price of physical metals. Good luck with finding 1oz bullion @spot price.
And I don't intend to sell my gold for invisible "assets" or the official currency of Magic - The Gathering nerds.
Jesus Fuck.
"Good luck with finding 1oz bullion @spot price."
You don't buy it at spot price if you buy it retail you stupid inbred pimple faced degenerate. Just like when you go to Walmart to buy your A.D.D meds and a pack of socks, you're not getting the socks for what Walmart paid the manufacturer. You pay a premium or mark-up.
You pay a premium unless you buy on the futures market. And I'm sure your dumb ass has the money to do so and the knowledge to complete the task.
Bernanke is reading this thread and laughing gleefully. "Dance puppets, DANCE!"
Divide and conquer still works. Never mind that bitcoin and gold are literally perfect compliments for one another, and that you should, in fact, own BOTH. Bitcoin enables Freegold. Transact in bitcoin. Save in gold. Leave the judenfetzen in the streets.
Bernanke can sniff my ass after a long jog on a hot day.
IF Bernanke is reading this thread...
FUCCKKKK YOOOOOOUUUU BERNNNNANNNKKKEEEE!!!!
Bernanke can read?
Yup, ABCDQE.
One And Only said:
Hey, look, a BLS believer!
Oh, the lulzrony.
At least I can eat my tulips.
They also smell nice and look pretty.
You can make a paper wallet with bitcoin - yea, hold it in your hand.
Shove it up your ass too if you'd like while you're eating your gold.
How many 1's and 0's does one need to make paper? And if I were to shove it up my arse, would it not then be toilet paper and not a wallet any longer?
How many banks does it take to set the price of gold? 5
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-11-25/how-gold-price-manipulated-duri...
If I am understanding you, the point you are trying to make is that banks set the price of gold. Gosh, no really? But they have no role in the price of Bitcraps? Holy Chit, just how big is your blind spot?
Yes! No one does! That's the point.
They can buy it for the purpose of bidding it up and crashing it to try and crush confidence in it. That's about it.
I'm glad you understand.
Anyone seen Hugh Hendry?
We are blessed to have such pertinent insight;
"@stacyherbert: Biggest volume on the spikes and drops. Just #bitcoin changing hands. https://t.co/xwKGhxwMXs"
Yes, I think I saw him at the bar last night around 2:00 am. He was really drunk, talking about trends, and crying so it's hard to tell if it was really him.
If the guy was drunk, talking about trends, and crying...that was him.
You're probably right. It smelled as if he had shit his pants so I didn't want to get too close for a good look.
Fantastic contrary indicator.
We need a few more like him to capitulate.
Seriously though, what is the market cap of the top 3 money wire services combined? What's the value of the world's largest distributed computer network assuming Moore's Law? Plus what's the brand equity as the first- mover in the crypto currency space?
Brand equity - negative since the IRS are very interested in it and by using pedocoin you are in the same group as criminals, pedos and tax evaders
... and that's why DC times the hearings in conjunction with the Volcker Rule... because they don't like a public record of all transactions as expressed in 3D accounting? Bitcoin is an IRS "Patriotic" act dream come true.
"People's Bank of China announced that Bitcoin is simply a virtual commodity and "isn't a currency with any real meaning" (paraphrasing Alan Greenspan), and that it officially bans financial companies from Bitcoin transactions."
Hmmm, just what I've been saying, it's not a currency except in the sense a bus token or casino chip is a currency, i.e. very limited use, not a characteristic of a true currency.
It has characteristics closer to corproate stock shares, but the "corporation" isn't recognized by any govt authorized exchange, maybe because it isn't a corproation. It's stock shares in an empty shell corporation you might say.
That's actually a bullish argument IMHO
I don't care if it's bullish or bearish. I'm not taking sides. Bitcoin will stand or fall on it's own.
I think it will fall due to banning by all govts and competition from other xxxcoins out there.
I believe the banning is just starting. I expect to see bitcoin and other so-called "crypto-currencies" banned from acceptance not just by financial entities but by any US corporation, meaning eBay, PayPal, Amazon, etc, couldn't accept it, and eventually banned from any transactions with US dollars, making any USD-BTC exchange illegal in America. I expect to see other govts make similar bans.
Agreed! I have a bunch of Chuck E. Cheese tokens. There's probably less than 21 million of them and they provide real value to society. The tokens teach impressionable 5 year olds about the wonders of gambling! These "skills" can be worth millions on Wall Street when child matures.
Bitcoin is a store of value. It could replace the US Federal Reserve Note.
I heard that somewhere.
"Every business day in London, five banks meet to set the price of gold"
Heard that somewhere too.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-11-25/how-gold-price-manipulated-duri...
As someone once said: "Before we begin to debate. let's define our terms". In that vein, we need to define "Store of value".
Since "All stored items have a 'Useful Shelf Life' of practical value to its owner." It is its OWNER who defines its "practical shelf life", since it is the owner who will be the first to put it to use, and not some distant generation in the past or future. In practical terms, we need only be concerned in "preserving value" for the time-frame of interest to us, not someone else. PM may serve that purpose (default/preferred item), but so may other real or derived assets.
If we are to stick to "reality", not "ideology", and avoid shilling for other interests.
p.s. to my 13:53 posting: I’m intrigued and amused that One and Only got junked (5x) for using truth and ZH/Tyler article in his counter-argument. When people respond to facts and reason with junking, they have clearly entered the “religion” or “ideological zealot” zone. Interesting.
Bitcoin has crashed to $542 low at BitStamp overnight on reports that China Telecom has taken Bitcoin logo down from its web page. Bitcoin crashed to $800 on BitStamp yesterday on report that Baidu has stopped accepting Bitcoin. The famous "Network Effect" which has propelled Bitcoin "Valuation" according to its pumpers is working now against the "Future of Money" backed by Satoshi Nakamoto, NSA, CIA, CFR or by somebody else - please chose according to your liking. China has banned financial institutions from working with Bitcoin and now the other market operators will follow the orders.
Chinese move was crucial for the future of Bitcoin, the last vale was taken out from those behind. Who can benefit the most from Gold 2.0? China accumulating record amount of Gold this year or U.S. scrambling to return Gold to Germany? Bitcoin will be the last nail in the rampant Gold manipulation in the Western Fractional Gold Reserve System leveraged over 65 time now. Once people will realise that nobody can manufacture "Gold 2.0" majority will return to the real value. It always boils down to the question: what is it better - to look like idiot before the Bubble burst or after that? China is protecting its citizens and encourages them to accumulate Gold. Gold is holding well today after all positive economic news and Bitcoin bust will ignite the new Gold Bull Leg Up breaking its free of any snake oil competition. Next few days will place this experiment for distraction of 99% from the Real Value into perspective for all involved parties. http://sufiy.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/bitcoin-crashes-to-800-on-report-bai... The Future Of Money: Gold, CIA And Bitcoin
So China completes its first successful pump and dump scam.
It will be a while before it takes over the US as king of that role. As a matter of fact, they can't even compete with Nigeria at this point but they are working on it
So bit pin really is a threat then...a threat to "gold ruling the world"...yet another rampant form of legalized stealing. Your gold has no value in this this world...only in the form by which it becomes a productive or working asset. Your gold just sits there...does nothing, works for nobody...claims to "we that the rules." I'll tell you who sets the rules: the difference between the overnight rate and the ten year treasury. I would call that "free money"...and since it appears to work...the dollar has not only not been repudiated but in fact is surging in value. For the time being at least gold is just another non interest bearing depreciating asset no different from a home or a car. Something worthless actually.
Yes, you're correct that gold just sits there, but while it sits there, it protects your purchasing power. There are multiple examples. It's true for silver too. Check out how a gallon of gas in 1948 cost roughly one silver quarter. That 1948 silver quarter will buy you a little more than a gallon today.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/m/2012_fotw741.html
http://www.coinflation.com/unitedstates/
http://fuelgaugereport.aaa.com/?redirectto=http://fuelgaugereport.opisne...
I get it that productive assets such as real estate or stocks purchased in 1948 (depending on what you bought) may have out performed PM's. But in terms of a low risk investment that you can keep in your possession and protect purchasing power with, PM's have been pretty damn good despite the fact that they just sit there.
This is what happens when you get Greenspunk and Bank of Satan....err....America weigh in on your crypto-shite. Go to Gyft.com and unload those ghost dollars while you can cuz you know turning into straight FRN notes takes weeks.
Plus how good is Joe Weisenthal barometricly speaking in a Krugmanian Bitcoin as a broken window thesis sense? I'm considering a Talebian anti-fragility call on this price action... waiting to see what the next few hours bring.
Yes, the weekend charts should be interesting. It could be that many are simply buying real products and the merchant are transfering them to cash. It is the holiday season.
So let me get this straight... As a businessman, I accept bitcoin payment for $2,000 worth of goods; $1,000 per bitcoin peg. I then cash out my bitcoin and find the conversion to be $450 per bitcoin. Have I got it right?
jb
Yes, but you can make it up on volume ala Amazon.
Bezos did NOT invent that strategery.... actually it was an SNL skit from the 70's called "The Changemaker". Guy wore a metal change dispenser on his belt. Gave exact change and made money on the volume...
Read Catch 22, pay particular attention to the character Milo Minderbinder.
I tend to hear it in farming circles as originating with farmers trying to make up losses by increasing volume.
Actually, this IS the current and dominant strategy by large corporations today. It's called "economy of scale." And, well, it DOES work by way of obtaining better price breaks on input materials and by utilizing automation. Works until volume collapses: which would then be "economies of scale in reverse."
Something like that....http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/06/autos/tesla-bitcoin/
Unless Coinbase or Bitpay crashes, that is not correct. If I accept $2k for my services VIA BtC, it goes directly into the Coinbase account, minus the exchange fee, then instantly transfered into USD into my Business Account. There is not a time conversion hold that I am aware of. The same is true when you sell or buy a BtC on those protocols.
so as a business person, you will have a sign posted on the front door indicating the bitcoin 'acceptance' conversion rate each and every hour of operation? or simply a sign reading we are accepting bitcoin today or we are not accepting bitcoins today ?
if you sell high end equipment or services and use bitcoin as payment, you can lose your company in minutes.
also, why would you want to instantly convert your bitcoins to $$ after each purchase if you believe the coin will be worth much more in two days?
jb
James- as a business that accepts pmt in Btc, the transaction is ALWAYS done @ the POS(point of sale) with real time quotes on conversion rates. It is only dangerous for the merchant if he decides to keep his coins rather then transfer them instantly to USD. Selling a candy bar or high end equipment is irrelevant. I elect not to keep BtC pmts in BtC because I do not wish to be a specualtor-as many other merchants have chosen also. Although-and I feely admit it's fun to hold a few for the speculative games. Both are based on simple economic principles: FEAR & GREED.
then why accept them at all if you immediately convert them to fiat? what if bitpay goes down temporarily and you have a crash like this one, where too many(or too few with large holdings, as the case may be) are heading for a small exit all at once?
The transaction fees, even including currency conversion and all, is much lower than debit or credit cards. Cash is best, BTC is next, then electronic bank payments which have the highest costs. Every fee cuts into the margins.
well said Matt. There is also the benefit of accessing a market that is global, and one that you might not have ordinarily got. Kind of like businesses in the 60s that started accepting Master Card-another nitch market.
"The transaction fees, even including currency conversion and all, is much lower than debit or credit cards."
Yes, that's the theory to start with...
I worked for a startup that was working on electronic currency: I have to chuckle that, several years later, I'm here and talking about this stuff. That's what was claimed. But, as is often the case, costs are often missed early on. Not saying that it wouldn't hold, but if I had a Bitcoin for every time someone starting up some new system claimed it operated cheaper I'd be rich (on "paper" anyway). I suspect that "support" might be one area that's being over-discounted.
That's the beauty of open source; your support is the internet, provided for free with optional donations. No Call Center or help desk needed. The quality may not be the same, and you may have to sift through thousands of posts on blogs, most of which are noise, but at least you save a couple percent in fees.
About 10 minute lag time whatever it takes for the blockchain to update. But my understanding is those services will guarantee the exchange rate agreed upon at the time of transaction regardless of any price swings. So as a business you don't get burnt using them as middle man but you also don't get to keep the bitcoins plus you pay a transaction fee which is still cheaper than processing a credit or debit card for the same transaction. They only serve as medium of exchange not actual currency and the coins get recycled back into the market to be reused again for more transactions. The middle man takes on the risk. Price swings are a moot point since the vendor prices in USD as long as the end result is the vendor winds up with the same amount of USD for the transaction after the sale. You can use volatile 'digital currency' as a medium of exchange as long the goods and services are priced in a fairly stable one it is pegged against and the exchange is done almost instanenously.
> It could be that many are simply buying real products and the merchant are transfering them to cash.
... and crashing the value 50%?
Take electronic pulses backed by nothing for real goods, trade it for script of the realm and watch the value plumet. That's some strong currency, I'd say.
Nice. That was a perfect example of a willing suspension of disbelief.
Please Dave, don't bring those wall street toadies at Business Insidious into the conversation. They ain't nothing but pay4play propagandists.
We'll see how the index fund roll out goes. Again as I said "once real money enters this arena the price will collapse." So I bought one bit coin at 1000 dollars and now it is worth 500. Perhaps soon 200...maybe even one hundred or even a dollar. The question that needs answering is the extent to which this becomes a means of exchange among Vox Populii...not its "absolute value" in dollar terms. In other words how is bitcoins not superior in every way to barter? I fail to see how that in fact cannot be true in every and all cases actually. It's a far more efficient determinate of value than any currency in existence. Those "paper promises" are backed by worthless humans and their inability not to lie, cheat and steal. Bitcoin however is "informed money." It knows the character of the person with whom you are exchanging with. Needless to say it is far more expensive to produce than mere paper...and to date "there is only one." Let the market decide the utilitarian value of this purely private means of exchange. As prices begin to appear in bitcoins those left holding dollars will see the value-less ness of all the words and deeds of the money...all of it stolen, all of it ill gotten.
Once you are trading in a currency as defined by the powers that be, you are on shaky ground. Particularly because the parties involved are anonymous. Just ask the guys doing jail time like the Liberty Dollar and E Gold people. Yes they will come and shut you down with out warning.
No doubt the Fed and other central banks are watching bitcoin closely from their comments. No doubt the Fed will issue their own electronic currency. The idea that there is a permanent trail of transactions and ownership, tracked by the NSA super centre, allowing them to account for every single dime spent in the economy, by whom and on what, extracting every single cent in taxes, is just to compelling.
Bill Fleckenstein says Bitcoin will go to zero:
Fleckenstein: “Yeah, it’s a giant chain-letter. Everyone will lose all of their money that puts money in it. It’s a complete joke. Even a crappy currency has government taxing ability behind it, or some sort of a standing army or something like that.
Bitcoin is nothing. It’s dot-com mania 3.0 just moved one step over, right? People are so enamored with communication with their phones and online commerce and all of that. Now they’ve invented what they call a currency to mess around with it, and people are speculating in it the same way they speculated in this other crap. It’s not a currency at all, it’s a complete joke.”
http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2013/12/6_Fleckentstein_-_Global_Meltdown_%26_Why_Bitcoin_Will_Go_To_Zero.html
I love it.........a chain letter.............thats funny
one could liken it(bit-coin) to the Mega-Millions lottery game............a few may win, but the vast majority 99.999999999999999% will lose
My money is on more people having gained/will gain from Bitcoin than will ever gain from the lottery. For every lottery drawing there are at least 99.99999999% - 100% losers. In the case of bitcoin, the ratio is much less extreme.
<<the vast majority will lose>>
No. The losers will be the last ones on board, squeezing into crowded seats among the the livestock.
Sounds pretty elitist to me. Keep in mind that there are 7+ BILLION humans on the planet, most of whom do NOT have access to all the glorified tech world.
In a perfect world each human would have 0.003 bitcoins and 1 oz. of gold. This is not a perfect world and Bitcoin never claimed to solve poverty or elitism. Does Gold provide any different or better solutions in this regard?
Seriously if you are a director of a company and have to decide whether to accept bit coin for purchases of your products or services, would you? How much director liability insurance do you have for when shareholders sue your ass off?
You can instantly convert bitcoin into the dollars that have lost 98% of their value over the last 100 years using bitpay.
I'm sure you knew that.
If a merchant prices their product in BtC they need to expect fluctuations. Big gamble.
Reread my comment that you responded to.
Carefully this time.
I was agreeing with you. Anyone that posts a product of coins-gets the coins and takes a chance on the near-term currency changes. You're preaching to the choir.
They have the freedom to take the chance if they want. If they choose to instantly convert it to their local currency at the point of sale they can do that too.
Places like bitpay make the instant conversion for you.
So no. There is 0 risk to the merchant unless he chooses to take the risk by holding the bitcoin.
Key point being, the pricing is done in local currency, not BTC. BTC is the method of payment and converted at time of sale.
Then you answered my question. If you were a director you would accept it. I would resign. And if I were a shareholder and you sold the business for bit coin that dropped 50% in a day, I would see you in court.
I have accepted it. I will accept it.
I will see you in court, SIR!
What happens when it crashes up 150% in the next week? Sir, could I then take you to court?
That's fine if it's your business. I am agnostic when it comes to bit coin. Good luck. I was going to throw a lazy 5 or 10k at it when it was under 100. Would have been a good gamble.
And no if it crashes up 150 percent then you have made a successful gamble but you have not been prudent in my view you have still been reckless with my business.
Clearly agnostic.
Agnostics I know regularly go onto to message boards to debate things they don't understand. They do that regularly.
The reason why I did not throw the lazy 10k at it was that I did not understand it. I have researched it and I don't understand it. I went to the coin shop instead.
Dude I try not to get personal.
I know. You can only understand things you hold in your hand like rocks and balls of hair.
You seem upset. Por que?
I just feel sarcastic. If that's ok bro.
Listen, I have alt cryptocurrencies, not BTC, but 2 of the other top 10. Having said that, it took a while to "get it" and it's still simply a play, but you have to be in the game to win. I consider it a night at a casino, and hope it pans out. Love the zeitgeist of the cryptocurrencies idea, but still not sure how it plays out, nor are you.
P.S. Once knew a guy at a church, I was then a child, he invested 20K in mobile phones in the early 1980s when they were big clunky things. Millions later he was out. It was the beginning of the tech. Never forgot that. I have a few alt cryptos... JMO
I have no problem with what you have done I was actually looking at doing the same thing even though I have no clue. I met a techy who swears by BTC but also others. The guys who know the technology are super confident in the integrity of the technology I am just not sure if at the end of the day it is worth anything. Love the gamble though. But not BTC anymore. Maybe some of the other alternatives. Good luck I think you'll end up doing well on it.
I think best case it becomes a viable form of online payment, though BTC has exceeded that to date. LTC, I believe, survives if BTC does. FTC(created at oxford, UK. The creators to be believers, community friendly) is IMO the best "good" longshot. Beware online exchanges, you can buy at traditional online auction sites at inflated prices, but so far it's safest, until they(various "bays") shut down the trade IF they do so. JMOs
Any thoughts on Namecoin? The tech guy said that one is ten years ahead of its time. I read up on it and just could not understand it. Again, I am prepared to gamble a bit.
NMC relates to domain name registry payment somehow, so it has some "backing?" other than that not too knowledgable, sorry. Know it has fluctuated 50% too, last week or so. Interested to see "Ripplecoin" when it's widely available...this may be your friends true "10 yr ahead" coin, not sure. Seems to tie debt to the "coins" spread out. For now I'm just LTC (4/1 BTC) and FTC(longshot gamble 16/1 BTC to be mined). Enjoy the endeavor!
Oh, and "Folks, place your bets before bidding is finalized, place your bets!" lol
Not understanding it and choosing to go the coin ship is fair enough. It's your right.
But may I point out when you "threaten to sue", that (a) you must differentiate between short-term fluctuations, (b) show that steady-state changes lead to "realized losses" and (c) actual "realized losses". No court or jury will rule in your favor if the other side is more convincing in (a-c). Just an observation.
"Agnostics I know regularly go onto to message boards to debate things they don't understand."
And That is why one ought to buy Bitcoins! Seems all logical and shit to me...
No, I would not accept them. Nor do I think you're going to convince a dispersed group of shareholders to accept this.
Simple reason: I make or do something that I think covers my COGS, OPEX, capex, taxes, interest, and blah blah blah. Why would I take the risk that it all gets wiped instantly because some drug dealer is cashing out of bit coins?
If my shareholders want to take that risk, go buy your own bit coins and speculate. Otherwise why add another layer of risk into your equity returns?