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Bitcoin Crashes, Loses Half Of Its Value In Two Days

Tyler Durden's picture




 

It was inevitable that a few short days after Wall Street lovingly embraced Bitcoin as their own, with analysts from Bank of America, Citigroup and others, not to mention the clueless momentum-chasing, peanut gallery vocally flip-flopping on the "currency" after hating it at $200 only to love it at $1200 that Bitcoin... would promptly crash. And crash it did: overnight, following previously reported news that China's Baidu would follow the PBOC in halting acceptance of Bitcoin payment, Bitcoin tumbled from a recent high of $1155 to an almost electronically destined "half-off" touching $576 hours ago, exactly 50% lower, on very heave volume, before a dead cat bounce levitated the currency back to the $800 range, where it may or may not stay much longer, especially if all those who jumped on the bandwagon at over $1000 on "get rich quick" hopes and dreams, only to see massive losses in their P&Ls decide they have had enough.

Which incidentally, like gold, is to be expected when one treats what is explicitly as a currency on its own merits in a world of dying fiat - with the appropriate much required patience - instead of as an asset, with delusions of grandure that some greater fool will pay more for it tomorrow than it is worth today. Sadly, in a world of HFT trading, patience is perhaps the most valuable commodity.

As for Bitcoin, while the bubble may or may not have burst, and is for now kept together with the help of the Winklevoss bros bid, all it would take is for another very vocal institutiona rejection be it in China or domestically, where its "honeypot" features are no longer of use to the Fed or other authorities, for the euphoria to disappear as quickly as it came...

Two day chart, showing the epic move from $1155 to $576 in hours:

And longer term chart showing the overnight action in its full glory:

 

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Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:59 | 4224390 philosophers bone
philosophers bone's picture

I agree with you. Each director of a company with third party shareholders, has to ask themselves if they are acting in the best interests of shareholders to accept and/or hold bit coin. And if they don't fully understand it, they are exposed. I guess a director could now rely on the B of A opinion that bit coin is undervalued!

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 14:46 | 4224736 One And Only
One And Only's picture

Who wants the risk of their equity going up 15,000%? 

I agree.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 15:21 | 4224812 Catullus
Catullus's picture

Which one of your bond holders or vendors or employees wants to get paid in bitcoins? Maybe you can report your cash flow statement in Internet Mystery Money. You can buy all the organic, grass fed beef jerky you want with that!

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 19:24 | 4225400 Lamarth
Lamarth's picture

I'd take bitcoin payment.  I have a friend who has even more reason to - he's currently getting paid in a minor fiat different to the minor fiat where he's living.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 23:45 | 4225910 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

I refuse to work for fiat.  I do accept PMs or BTC.  Since I travel a lot, BTC is about 20x more convenient for me and my employers than bullion.  Yes, before you ask, I do need to convert gold and BTC to local currency from time to time.  But I do it at intervals and quantities of my choosing.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 10:59 | 4224227 Dick Gozinya
Dick Gozinya's picture

Gold isn't an asset?

Okay...

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:01 | 4224235 One And Only
One And Only's picture

Good story bro.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:01 | 4224231 Duc888
Duc888's picture

Gee, maybe it works better as a transfer of payments than a storage of wealth.

 

Hey, I see what you did there....LOL

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:07 | 4224249 tradewithdave
tradewithdave's picture

Yes. As you will notice tulip prices are reasonably stable and a genuine business.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:04 | 4224241 JamesBond
JamesBond's picture

To the poor businessman who accepted bitcoin payment for $1,000 worth of goods and services ...

 

digital currency bitchez

Sun, 12/08/2013 - 01:32 | 4226139 Curiously_Crazy
Curiously_Crazy's picture

Yeah. He accepted them a month ago and to this day is still sitting on double in terms of fiat even given the 50% drop (which is nothing, btw, it's previously cratered from $2 to about 40 cents but shock horror it rose above and beyond. It then hit $29 and dropped to $2 but shock horror it rose above and beyond.) The only reason sheeple are giving a shit about this current drop is because the lamestream media has been crapping on about it.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:03 | 4224242 Blame Crash
Blame Crash's picture

 This is not good for the ponzi narrative.

The BitCon Bernanke had better get to work.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:07 | 4224247 Winston of Oceania
Winston of Oceania's picture

So the PBOC would not like to have bitcoin around when they put out their commodity backed currency... Notice that it did not go to zero.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:09 | 4224256 Balvan
Balvan's picture

Every crash = buying opportunity. Keep stackin

Mon, 12/09/2013 - 00:45 | 4228403 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

It's a bit late to post this, but someone needs to point out (to TD) that there is a difference between Crash and Volatility.

If nothing else, TD needs to use a "working version", so we can judge which situation is actually happening, versus what he claims is happening.  In this instance, I think we are seeing volatility and not a crash, as a crash has a much longer timeline to recovery.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:07 | 4224257 22winmag
22winmag's picture

If I never hear about Bitcoin again, it will be too soon.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:12 | 4224263 PaperBear
PaperBear's picture

Bitcoin needs to flush out all the foolish speculators and then it can move back onto it's upward trend.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:40 | 4224323 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

some of you guys should pop on over to someplace like I-Hub and read some of the posts on worthless penny stocks that have collapsed so you can see just how vividly your comments about bitcoin resemble theirs.

what you just uttered in your comment is the typical "get the flippers out/we need strong hands holding" meme.

I support the spirit of what bitcoin seeks to accomplish, but I just do not see bitcoin itself as a viable vehicle to achieve those goals. On a very simplistic level, the technical requirements to use it make it nearly impossible for it to achieve its goals by virtue of how many people are prohibited from using it due to it's technical requirements. Currency needs to be something that everyone, from the tech geek to the luddite, from the grandchild to the grandmother can use with equal ease. Bitcoin is quite simply not that. It is, in a very real sense, a very elitist tool. Which is ironic considering what it seeks to accomplish.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 23:19 | 4225873 digi
digi's picture

Ease of use will come with time, same way it did with the computer we are typing these messages on, it's in the works right now. As for 100% adoption I don't see the need. Not everyone has a cell phone, not everyone has internet access, not everyone has a car, none of that invalidates the technology.

Sun, 12/08/2013 - 00:48 | 4226054 Seer
Seer's picture

"Ease of use will come with time, same way it did with the computer we are typing these messages on"

Would that be in MY lifetime?

I have older friends that regularly struggle with their computer.  When things are working things are working.  But... shit like viri tend to permeate reality and make things not work fine.

One could shrug it off and say that they're dinosaurs and they'll die off.  Keep in mind that they have money (more than do most younger people).  You have to have managed to earn the currency before you can spend it: and it seems like we're all bypassing the "earning" part (again, where are the jobs?).

Sun, 12/08/2013 - 01:47 | 4226162 digi
digi's picture

Bitcoin conglomerates so many young technologies that anyone who would attempt to predict it's future to you as inevitable is lying. I'm not going to try and guess if my parent's will ever make use of it or not. All I'm saying is that forward progress is being made. This is just a historical observation combined with what is happening in the present and by no means a prediction. Technology has been known to progress in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion. You add features and you create problems at the same time and no one knows what exactly is going to happen next. But people are resilient and they keep on trying, that's just part of the fun. I wouldn't even bother to try to examine it on a macroeconomic scale at this point because it's just not there yet, these are the early days if there will ever be later ones.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:11 | 4224265 tradewithdave
Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:13 | 4224270 PaperBear
PaperBear's picture

MUST LISTEN: The Original Bitcoin White Paper by Satoshi Nakamoto [Read by Stefan Molyneux]

http://sgtreport.com/2013/12/must-listen-the-original-bitcoin-white-paper-by-satoshi-nakamoto/

[Ed. Note: This guy thought of everything.]

2m40s “What is needed is an electronic payment system based on cryptographic proof instead of trust.”

Who on this website trusts the central banksters ?

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 17:53 | 4225196 css1971
css1971's picture

Um, by the third sentence, 22 seconds in, you know that Bitcoin has failed.

The blockchain... Is 10Gb now, and as it grows the number of clients which can use it will decline, until none can... then you are back where we are now, with centralised high computing capacity "trusted third parties" performing the transaction for you. i.e. bitcoin financial institutions.

Bitcoin was designed this way, specifically to become centralised as it grew.

Hope This Helps You Understand The Failure Of Bitcoin

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 23:33 | 4225897 digi
digi's picture

This is a non issue. The blockchain in it's current form is uncompressed only because it hasn't grown to the point of necessitating it, and is unlikely to do so for atleast 10 years, or more if you want to account for increasing disk storage capacity. Top hard drive manufacturers are predicting 600TB drives by 2016 and even if they fail to deliver, the blockchain compression methods being worked on are already good enough to contain the entire chain in a few GB.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 23:51 | 4225920 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

I have copies of the blockchain running on 6 computers. The blockchain size can increase many times and not effect the viability of these current machines.  I also have bitcoin wallets on mobile phone and tablet.  These wallets do not require the full blockchain.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:16 | 4224271 TNTARG
TNTARG's picture

I'll never understand how anyone capable of logical thinking could trust his savings in something such as "virtual" coins. I mean, folks... To me no bitcoin worths shit. Printed paper is enough volatility already.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 14:51 | 4224739 One And Only
One And Only's picture

2% of dollars are physical the rest are digital.

Why you fuckin with a virtual currency bro? Especially one where adding an infinite number of 0's is possible?

Not smart bro, not smart. What if a meteor hits earth and crashes the internent?

Sun, 12/08/2013 - 01:58 | 4226172 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

If a sizable meteor or asteroid hits the earth, you'll have bigger problems than "money", and PM won't save your ass.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 16:17 | 4224952 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

The Bank of England is addressing your concerns as we speak :-/

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 17:47 | 4225165 css1971
css1971's picture

I think it's the mint actually.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 23:39 | 4225905 digi
digi's picture

You do realize that most all of the wealth in the world is held as numbers in a man made account somewhere because it's convenient? Bitcoin is a vast improvement on that base idea. A globally distributed accounting ledger that is controlled by no one. Money is information. There have always been multiple ways to convey information. And as time goes on humans tend to find better ways to do so. 8-track, CD, MP3, etc.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:13 | 4224272 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

I wonder how that Tesla transaction is doing...

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:05 | 4224403 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

That is a good question W7. My impression is that any sort of transaction of this size would be immediately transfered to USD. The possibility that Mt Gox or other specualtors had fore knowledge of this pending transaction would tend to believe a chunk of this size would effect a sideways market to the downsize and followed suit.

As an aside,  taking a break from the constant reporting of future chocolate highways to bring you the lasted on Huff Po:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/06/bitcoin-crashes_n_4400392.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmaing13%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D415937

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 15:54 | 4224883 Matt
Matt's picture

How expensive is this car, that it can move markets? In the last 24 hours, over 600,000 BTC have been traded. That's over $300 million USD, with over $50 million on MtGox alone. Plus, anyone processing that kind of payment would probably use BitPay or Bitstamp, not MtGox.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 22:36 | 4225796 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

The car had to be worth near 100BtC. I see 50 trade all the time on MtGox. But yes, it could have been enough. The trades are not marked 'sell'-for a new car...just 'sell'.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:18 | 4224278 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

"If you don't hold it......"

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:30 | 4224306 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Just checked on my cold storage. Yep, all my coins still there as expected.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:21 | 4224290 colin
colin's picture

Only Yaahweh can make money, everything else is a ponzie

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:31 | 4224309 tradewithdave
tradewithdave's picture

If only Doug Casey and Ray Kurzweil could understand that time and the universe aren't for sale.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:34 | 4224470 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Oh, I'm pretty sure they do. Some of their 'clients' (marks) on the other hand...

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:27 | 4224300 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Y'all are going to be kicking yourselves in the asses when the next Cyprus happens in EU which is the most likely next big event coming. You will see another major ramp up as people are running to hills trying protect their money from being stolen that is within the banking system. You all keep fixating on bitcoin. It is a system of crypto-currencies not one be all end all coin. But one trick ponies fixate on their one pony and keep falling into the when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail view of things.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 19:25 | 4225407 Lamarth
Lamarth's picture

I find it amazing how stable the virtual currencies are keeping with each other even while their link to the outside world is tumbling.  LTC/BTC has moved by less than 10%.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 21:51 | 4225705 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

If you follow the exchanges look at the trading volume and trading pair data charts. I believe the answer is in there.

http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/v2/

 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:28 | 4224302 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

bitcoin = ponzi

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 22:28 | 4225782 pipes
pipes's picture

yep....except for possessing none of the attributes of a Ponzi...other than that, it's exactly the same.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:33 | 4224313 Boondocker
Boondocker's picture

glad I grated them as investment..... I got scared at $900 and sold 4 of my stash of 8....but I got them at sub 60....

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:35 | 4224320 mijev
mijev's picture

I didn't watch the greenspan interview because he makes me gag. But for anyone that did watch, did he bring up the topic or did it seem like a 'random' question from the interviewer? Also, what gives with the timing of the chinese announcements? My gut feeling is that the chinese government wants its citizens to buy up all the available PMs and, in recent times, all the avaialble bitcoins. But maybe they felt the BTC side of that equation was getting out of hand.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 18:17 | 4225256 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

It looked like he was asked by Trish Regan as an excuse to bash both BC and Gold.  Greenscam then went off the reservation and started talking about how gold is a legitimate store of value etc.  Then Regan had to derail that shit pronto.  Actually, it's worth the watch just becasue the flip-flop on gold was so out of place for CNB$.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:38 | 4224324 falak pema
falak pema's picture

As a neutral observer of Bitcoin I see an analogy between the Libertarian dream of a peer to peer currency without state or central bank control,  and the nihilist void in all such schemes of ensuring that peer to peer does not degenerate into Day of the Mafia thug; and then further down into Land of the Mafia Don. 

How do you get a Wyatt Earp to clean out the hoods and gunslingers working for "bitcoin cattle/mining barons" who want to corner Dodge, if you don't have some LAW and ORDER?

How do you regulate such a market in transparency and accountability for every transaction?

That's basically what BAIDU is saying to the Bitcoin world : "You guys are outa control and anybody could set up his own Mafia ring in that network's interstices as nobody regulates its reliability and price structure. We want stability about value otherwise it will be "Stand and Deliver" to Liberty Valance every day of the week."

We are at that critical fork IMO. Bitcoin and its likes have to find a solution pronto. 

 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:42 | 4224344 The Abstraction...
The Abstraction of Justice's picture

What is it that is not manipulated by the totally lawless at the present time?

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:45 | 4224357 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Precisely; if Bitcoin is the Mafia's reply to Society's thuggery; aka FED and consorts, how does that help the rest of us?

Two wrongs don't make a right. The world needs resolution of this shit; not more shit.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:29 | 4224460 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Once I get my disgusting fiat through the decrepit banking system and onto an exchange, I'm pretty anxious to convert it into BTC. Training myself to hold more back in bid form to catch larger dips and help the liquidity situation. Apart from that I believe a much higher price and a functioning futures market could alleviate bitcoin's volatility.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 15:10 | 4224774 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

Please expand on why you believe a futures market in bit-coin would reduce volatility?

 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 19:28 | 4225411 Lamarth
Lamarth's picture

That's what a cash settled futures market does... same with an options market.

It allows professional traders to profit by buffering swings.  What did *you* think a futures market did?

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:28 | 4224587 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Sorry, you are going to need to be a little clearer with your objections.  How, exactly, is bitcoin like the Mafia?  I don't see bitcoins running around extorting money, or burning down businesses, or making people sleep with the fishes.  Sure, there are some SERVICES that sell drugs for bitcoins (ALL forms of money have been used for that).  Sure, there is an assassination market too, but assassins have been paid in money since the dawn of time.  What is the big fucking deal?

The only people that I can see having a problem with bitcoin are those who are threatened by it, ie ignorant goldbugs (enlightened goldbugs see its value) and governments.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 17:39 | 4225148 css1971
css1971's picture

Bitcoin is not peer to peer. You have to go through a third party... A banker, if you will.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 23:43 | 4225909 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Liars aren't very popular, you know.

Nor are the ignorants who claim to be experts.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:37 | 4224326 JamesBond
JamesBond's picture

If you code it, they will come

 

 

jb

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:52 | 4224335 spooz
spooz's picture

fuggedabout Bitcoin, you can get in on the ground floor with LiteCoin.  You, too, can be part of the of a currency aristocracy !

Bitcoin has little use as a medium of exchange, making it more like a tulip than a gold coin, according to Yanis Varoufakis. Kind of reminds me of limited edition collectibles.  I recall someone defending Beanie Baby "investing" by calling the crash a correction:

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2013/12/06/bitcoin-litecoin-tulips-and-deflation-on-rt-tv/

 

 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 14:53 | 4224743 One And Only
One And Only's picture

not as fast or secure.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 19:34 | 4225418 Lamarth
Lamarth's picture

What?

Scrypt is considered to be more secure than SHA-256.  I haven't analyzed it personally.  Yes, it is easier to subject to a 51% attack, but that's only because current adoption.

Litecoin has 2.5 min average block time, Bitcoin 10 min.  Litecoin is therefore faster.

I'm personally getting into Worldcoin - 20 sec average blocktime.  Full confirmation < 2 mins.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 17:30 | 4225125 pipes
pipes's picture

...again the tulip reference.

Idiocy.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:42 | 4224337 Trimmed Hedge
Trimmed Hedge's picture

I bought a bunch of BTC at $1,242...

Am I fucked?

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:43 | 4224348 Balvan
Balvan's picture

No, you still have same amout of bitcoin as you bought. Worthless fiat price is irrelevant.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:50 | 4224371 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

Lmao if it were gold coins I would say that.

But pixels?

 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:55 | 4224383 Balvan
Balvan's picture

Well, that's what gold bugs say when price of gold drops. This is gold 2.0 after all.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 17:29 | 4225120 pipes
pipes's picture

The fact that you refer to pixels should tell anyone reading your opinions re;Bitcoin all they need to know.

 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:26 | 4224450 Pareto
Pareto's picture

+1 Nice call Balvan.  BTC is behaving exactly the way I would expect any other investment meeting excess demand.  BTC is going to find its legs somewheres between $200 and $1200 (very quickly) and then move on up.  Apart from arbitrage moments the fiat price of BTC dont matta - like gold.  Its real exchange value is the only thing that matters.  And for the record, I own lots of PMs and no BTC.  So long as the market believes that BTC is a credible alternative to, and exempt from the manipilation of the fiat money changing regime of Draghi, Kuroda, Yellen et al, then BTC lives.  And I fucking love BTC on this notion alone.

 

Junk me all you want, but, if we respect each other for trying preserve wealth through, say, farmland, PMs, real estate, et al productive assets and means of production, then why can we not respect those who seek to preserve value in yet another means of diversifying the protection of their wealth?  Don't like BTC?  Don't buy BTC (with your continuously eroding fiat).  Unless and until somebody like Paul Volker comes along and cleans this shit up and brings credibility back to the the $USD, then you have to respect BTC for what it is trying to accomplish and those that embrace it.  IMHO  cheers

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:52 | 4224643 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Diversity is good.  Holding some BTC is diversity even with huge volatility.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 15:41 | 4224852 pipes
pipes's picture

Much of the animosity is the result of a combination of factors IMHO. Cognitive dissonance, frustration over PM suppression/manipulation, frustration over fellow ZHers making massive gains while they themselves have watched from the sideines, ignorance, and fear of that which one does not understand.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 19:00 | 4225356 JuicedGamma
JuicedGamma's picture

Awesome, let us know when you sell </sarc>

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:41 | 4224339 virgilcaine
virgilcaine's picture

BTC..It's just part of the insane Monetary policy that the Central Banks have created. Lunatics are running the asylum and a few have escaped it appears.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:42 | 4224343 Iam Yue2
Iam Yue2's picture

I'm Changing My Mind About Bitcoin
JOE WEISENTHAL
DEC. 1, 2013, 4:40 PM

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:22 | 4224438 hoist the bs flag
hoist the bs flag's picture

i love crass

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 11:42 | 4224346 Afrispaans
Afrispaans's picture

Because Mandela.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:03 | 4224382 douglas
douglas's picture

Like I´ve been saying and doing for the last 9 months, you always need to avoid greed and take profits along the way.  Out of my original (cumulative) investment of aprox. $15k (250 BTC) I´ve gotten 6 monster boxes of Canadian Silver Maple leafs, 25 oz´s of Pamp Suisse Gold bars, 25 oz of Pamp Suisse Paladium Bars, 15 oz´s of Pamp Suisse Platinum Bars & about $10k in cash.  My remaining 100 BTC can go to zero or to the moon, at this point I will not sell another unless they go to 5 figures.  Weve always known this was a risky investment, I hope many others that bought in early have been following the advice in my posts. Those that didnt play this smart will hopefully learn their lesson.  Although to be honest, I still think BTC will recover and attain much higher highs.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 15:27 | 4224823 pipes
pipes's picture

Bravo, sir.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:01 | 4224397 dobermangang
dobermangang's picture

Sing along........  "What goes up...."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK62tfoCmuQ

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:03 | 4224398 hoist the bs flag
hoist the bs flag's picture

tulip bulbs don't grow well in hard, frozen soil...

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 17:24 | 4225113 pipes
pipes's picture

I've said it before and I'll make the point again.

 

The "tulip" reference/comparison to Bitcoin shows the maker of the comparison to be woefully ignorant.

 

 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 23:20 | 4225869 hoist the bs flag
hoist the bs flag's picture

my bad..people still buy tulips. I also can't explain the allegory of frozen soil

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:05 | 4224405 pipes
pipes's picture

Bitcoin. Offering opportunities on an almost daily basis to allow bloggers like the Tylers to look stupid. Once again, crash talk, and once again, it will work it's way back up, as it has EVERY time it has shown it's volatility. But if/when it plummets again after another run up, these somewhat dense authors and their even denser readers, will shout Bitcoin's "failure" again from the rooftops, declaring it dead or dying once again - "and pay no attention to the fact that we have written of this death multiple times before...and been wrong every time...this time is different, and we really, really mean it!"

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 21:03 | 4225608 malek
malek's picture

If you could now clearly distinguish between trading opportunities and value retaining opprtunities, we would get somewhere.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 23:53 | 4225922 digi
digi's picture

The human memory is a fickle thing isn't it?

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:12 | 4224420 Conax
Conax's picture

It has to be fun watching that price skyrocket even if it does retreat with the same enthusiasm.  I can see why the bugbit ride it both ways. 

EZ come, EZ go,

bought in so low

don't matter no mo'.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:12 | 4224422 Brazen Heist
Brazen Heist's picture

Damn 50% crash, stomach that bitches!!! This thing is like the fear and loathing of investing.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:21 | 4224434 joego1
joego1's picture

Damn! Bitreamed again!

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:25 | 4224444 katchum
katchum's picture

I wonder how these Bitcoin stores selling real products, cope with this volatility to the downside.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:24 | 4224518 TalkToLind
TalkToLind's picture

One joint is even selling gold for bitcoin, can you believe that?   It's hard to imagine why any sane person or business would trade their PM stash for overhyped vaporware.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 14:54 | 4224748 linniepar
linniepar's picture

I bought 10 oz Ag pre "crash" yesterday.  I'm not know for market timings always but I nailed it yesterday. 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:27 | 4224446 Fix It Again Timmy
Fix It Again Timmy's picture

Stripping away EVERYTHING, bitcoin depends on the burning of coal, natural gas, oil or nuclear fission and a very vulnerable infrastructure for its existence; physical gold on the other hand, is the product of neutron stars colliding and has been around for approximately 18 billion years..... What's in your wallet?....

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:30 | 4224458 Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

The best plan here is to design beanie babies with bitcoin wallet flash drives in them.  Each wallet will be limited to 1 coin.  That way bitcoins can be tied to some sort of credible physical backing.

Heh. I love the idea of bitcoin.  But it is improved upon by the ideas of physical gold and silver.  Here is a precious metals backed debt card so you can spend your gold and silver like money and no one even knows you are doing it:

https://www.perpetualassets.com/silver-debit-card

Sun, 12/08/2013 - 00:03 | 4225944 digi
digi's picture

One entity holding everyones physical assets, what's the worst that could happen right?

Sun, 12/08/2013 - 00:17 | 4225975 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Centralized and sporting a nice big Visa logo.  You know nothing, Jon Snow.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:29 | 4224461 webspin
webspin's picture

Only on zerohedge would an asset valued at $150 two months ago and now at 800 be considered a "crashed" asset.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:04 | 4224531 TalkToLind
TalkToLind's picture

Asset?   Heck, at least you could hold and smell a tulip...until it turned brown and wilted.

Sun, 12/08/2013 - 00:20 | 4225984 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

"Asset"... China's central bank officially recognized it as a "commodity".  I call it "money".  Whatever.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:23 | 4224571 Iam Yue2
Iam Yue2's picture

It is a crashed asset, for those poor bastards lured into buying at the top.

Sun, 12/08/2013 - 01:46 | 4226164 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Only if they sell it between now and the next top.  How is this different than any other asset?

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 21:05 | 4225616 malek
malek's picture

Only in comments would an asset that could easily go way back below $150 be considered a sound, rational investment (or even more hilarious: a store of value.)

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:37 | 4224473 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

LOL the number one mover of bitcoins price is , media.

You could flat out make shit up on this website or any other website if you wanted to and cause Bitcoin to go to zero in panic sell offs.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:39 | 4224474 unununium
unununium's picture

PBOC simply wanted to set banks' minds at ease and make sure no 1 financial institution became king of bitcoin.

As a system unto itself, the bitcoin economy will develop separately.  PBOC's action merely helps clarify that.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:40 | 4224477 muleskinner
muleskinner's picture

Bitcoin could issue a paper version of their crypto currency.  That way, if you lose your bitcoins to the ether, you still have the paper bitcoins.  Better to be safe than sorry.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 14:58 | 4224754 linniepar
linniepar's picture

You can already put btc on paper for offline storage.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:39 | 4224478 JamesBond
JamesBond's picture

Enlighten me regarding the payment process;  I'm too lazy on a Saturday to look it up.

As an owner of a restuarant, I have a sign outside that reads, "Bitcoins accepted as payment"

Do I set the conversion/exchange rate, does the buyer set the rate, or do we reach a gentelmen's agreement at that given moment?

jb

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 15:39 | 4224844 Alpha Monkey
Alpha Monkey's picture

You set the price in local currency, use a service like BitPay, create an invoice, have customer pay, you get local currency deposited that day.  Services like bitpay are working to reduce the risk involved in accepting bitcoins.  Plus, as a business owner in a world where BTC is not yet a commonly accepted form of payment for all the things you would need, you are better off receiving your local currency as a deposit at the end of the day.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:54 | 4224505 One And Only
One And Only's picture

Haha. Huge buy order at 666. Soroooosssssss.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 12:59 | 4224521 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

VAT On Bitcoin, UK Tax Authority HMRC Changes Mind

 

Back in November, UK tax authority HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) announced they intended to classify bitcoins as vouchers, meaning there would be an applicable VAT on bitcoin.

Now, after a meeting between HMRC and UK proponents of bitcoin it appears there has been a shift in thinking and intentions.

Tom Robinson of BitPrice took to reddit to announce the news:

"BitPrice just had a very positive meeting with HMRC regarding VAT and Bitcoin… We explained in detail what Bitcoin is and how it is used, following which they agreed that their categorisation of Bitcoin as: “a face-value voucher… likely ‘face value vouchers’” is inaccurate. They will be rescinding this advice."

More: http://bitcoinblogger.com/vat-on-bitcoin/

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 17:12 | 4225081 Bangin7GramRocks
Bangin7GramRocks's picture

Love the name! Hackers is deliciously awful!

Sun, 12/08/2013 - 00:23 | 4225992 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

This is big.  Also hearing rumblings that ZipZap (24k corner store locations in the UK) starts selling bitcoins next month.  Hold on to your hats.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:16 | 4224554 One And Only
One And Only's picture

No newspaper articles on bitcoin Monday.

By the time Newspapers write their "bitcoin crash" stories it will be back at it's highs.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:20 | 4224565 user2011
user2011's picture

After all the Chinese suckers jumped onboard, time to crash the party.     Please say thanks to the suckers.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:21 | 4224566 whatthecurtains
whatthecurtains's picture

Guess that guy who lost his hard drive with his Bitcoin wallet can stop looking

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:45 | 4224569 devo
devo's picture

Wall St better get on that BTC ETF

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:25 | 4224577 q99x2
q99x2's picture

That's my BitCoin for you. Acting like it always has. How else you gonna buy low and sell high. I though it would hit 625 but I was watching it go to as low as 490 something. What an opportunity for a trader. Like we used to have in the stock market before the FED took over.

Mt Gox has a few improvements that I could suggest. LocalBitcoins is the way to go if you are not moving fast.

The Revolution is not about money as much as it is about freedom.

Long live George Washington

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:26 | 4224581 Ribeye
Ribeye's picture

i don't get the animosity towards the Bitcoiners, nobody will be forced to use it, 

 

would i store my wealth in Bitcoin - of course not, 

 

would i use Bitcoin to buy stuff on the internet or the dark web - yep, sure would, no problem

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:33 | 4224598 Godisanhftbot
Godisanhftbot's picture

what wealth?

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:26 | 4224582 Sufiy
Sufiy's picture

Bitcoin has crashed to $542 low at BitStamp overnight on reports that China Telecom has taken Bitcoin logo down from its web page. It is time to pick another Gold Substitute: Gold 3.0 - Litecoin Gold 4.0 Peercoin and others to chose from 43 listed here. The supply is limited ... only to  your  imagination and money invested in the technology and Pump.

 

http://sufiy.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/bitcoin-crashes-to-800-on-report-bai...

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:29 | 4224589 Godisanhftbot
Godisanhftbot's picture

 lol. better you than me. owned. carnage.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:31 | 4224592 Godisanhftbot
Godisanhftbot's picture

hearing that b of a analyst found hanged.

 

There's a bull market somewhere as that bald lunatic says,

This time its in BC Putz.

 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:33 | 4224597 chemystical
chemystical's picture

Until one of the Btc cheerleaders can adequately answer this I will remain more bearish than Yogi:

Let's assume that your ultimate wet dream comes to fruition and central bank fiat goes the way of buggy whips.

Currently you transfer bitcoin from person A to person B.  Person B often enough then converts it to the cursed central bank fiat.  Aside from that they keep it and speculate that they will be able to do something with it later.  What is that something?  A. Convert to CB fiat.

What are you going to transfer it to when the CB fiats bite the dust? 

So everyone in the world now has a wallet of cryptocurrency (in this case Btc).  Why the would I give you so much as the sweat off of my balls in exchange for crypto? 

What?  I'm supposed to use Btc as a medium of my exchange because "everyone else id doing it"?  No thanks, I'll pass.  CB fiat has legal tender status and has bullets enforcing that.  Who is going to force me to use Btc?  The digital army??  Some mythical one-world govt (which you putatively are trying to escape btw) with its hypothetical army?

All you'd accomplish is forcing everyone to revert to either a barter system or find some other means of exchange....you know...the type that has actual value to the party and counterparty.  At least seashells had perceived value as bling.  I just don't see a world where I can wave a hard drive at someone and say, "Here, take some of these bits and give me a car or a house."  Unless that person has no other choice, then they won't do it.  You can only remove choice by force, and back to the earlier question: "Who is going to force me to use it?"

That is not a strawman, and until you can answer that final question, you're trading in unicorn dreams.  

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:46 | 4224632 Matt
Matt's picture

No one will force you, you are free to use whatever you want. The reason you might choose to use bitcoin, is the lower transaction fees and convenience.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 15:12 | 4224783 linniepar
linniepar's picture

Like I said, there are two kind of people in this world.  Those who understand btc and those who don't. 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 21:55 | 4225712 walküre
walküre's picture

Most people don't understand which is why they followed the hype and bought into it. Same as it ever was.

Those that know the truth and truly understand BTC made out like bandits and can't believe how easy it has been to fool everyone else.

Cheers to them.

Fonestar is either a useful idiot or a pumper.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 16:16 | 4224947 chemystical
chemystical's picture

Please cite some difference in transaction fees.  My better half runs our business; VISA charges us less than 2% and so does PayPal.   At this juncture that's a small costcompared to wondering whether Btc can be exchanged for the intended strike price of $1000, or the $800 that I might get for it 30 min from now when I redeem them.  Or the $600 I might receive 2 hours from now.

"Convenience"?  Compared to VISA and PayPal???  You'll need to be more specific.  Convenient to me means that I don't need to drive 300 miles to find a petrol station that accepts Btc.  By the time I arrived my tank would be empty, and by the time I returned home I'd again be empty.  In my "bizarro world" I can actually find petrol (and everything else) less than 5 min from our primary residence and 10 from the other.  Now THAT is convenient.

With all due respect, without widespread adoption you'll have no convenience and very little economy of scale, and without a compelling force you'll have no widespread adoption.  These cryptocurrencies will be niche at best when the speculative dust clears, and - as has been said many times - there is no barrier to entry for competitors, so I'm quite uncertain as to why I would accept Btc as opposed to XYZcoin for my goods.

Wishing won't make it so.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 16:25 | 4224970 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

I am sure that the Wilkewanker twins will come up with something like this is done for Gold/Silver:

https://www.perpetualassets.com/

 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 16:33 | 4224990 chemystical
chemystical's picture

Bitpay charges 0.99% transaction fee.  Ok, that's a savings versus our VISA rate, but Bitpay also leaves a 15 minute window open to complete the transaction.  

We're not selling a commodity, but what's to stop an unscrupulous buyer from initiating transactions every nanosecond and then letting a program monitor the exchange rate to determine which to complete?  That's offering arb with zero risk to the buyer, and there is no fucking way a sensible retailer would operate on those terms unless they had a huge markup already built into their price.

Sun, 12/08/2013 - 00:29 | 4226008 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Coinbase charges 0% on the first $1 million in sales, converting to USD if you prefer.  Also, there are no fraudulent charge-backs to deal with.  Not everybody can get a credit card or paypal account but everybody can have a Bitcoin wallet.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 16:35 | 4224997 Matt
Matt's picture

How expensive are the items you are selling, that the VISA card fee is only 2%? I suppose at the more expensive end of the scale, VISA, MasterCard etc may be more cost effective. 

With a very small purchase, say $5, the fees for using a service that converts the money and puts USD straight into the merchant's account could be $0.20. Last I heard, bank cards would take up around $0.65.

For wiring money internationally, Bitcoin is faster and less expensive and more easily proven then bank wire transfers. Another advantage to the merchant is that the payment is irreversible, so a buyer cannot scam you by reversing the payment, as can happen with credit card or paypal payment.

You are free to choose to accept or not accept it, and either it will be widely adopted or it won't. Bitcoin lost a huge chunk of utility that it had gained by getting acceptance in China; I'm surprised it has not fallen back to $125, or even over-shot on the fall.

 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 17:07 | 4225079 chemystical
chemystical's picture

small ticket all less than $1000 and avg ~ $400.   I did neglect to include the flat rate transaction fee (which is miniscule in proportion) and the monthly fee if we fail to meet a threshold.

You do raise another point but not in the way you perhaps intended:

"Another advantage to the merchant is that the payment is irreversible, so a buyer cannot scam you by reversing the payment, as can happen with credit card or paypal payment"

If a customer uses, for example, VISA and then has a problem with the product (broken, undelivered, etc), they can phone their card issuer and dispute the charges.  If I screwed them, then the issuer can charge me back.  Who exactly is going to charge back the merchant who accepts Btc?  One of the touted utilities of Btc is long-distance commerce.  In that instance the lack of recourse is a significant failing. 

You think that you in NYC are buying a widget from me in HK, but I am nothing but a fake storefront accepting your Btc.  Now what are you gonna do about it?  Answer: nothing.  Caveat emptor?  Yep, and that's not very conducive to the very commerce that Btc is supposedly facilitating.  Buy something on eBay and have a dispute, then eBay offers fraud protection.  Buy something at "WalMart" using your VISA and Wally screws you and VISA agrees (as they have with me) that they screwed you, and VISA charges them back.  Who's protecting you from fraud when you buy something in Btc?

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 19:24 | 4225404 Matt
Matt's picture

For large purchases, people tend to use mutually trusted escrow services. Otherwise, you are on your own. That said, in many places Bitcoin is recognized as currency, including America, and you may get recourse through the legal system. 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 14:32 | 4224645 Ribeye
Ribeye's picture

em, i'm not a member of the BTC cheer squad, but surely if all the fiat disappeared in a puff of smoke, people would turn to alternative currencies, it seems clear to me that BTC would be among these alternatives, 

 

 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 16:43 | 4225008 chemystical
chemystical's picture

That is not at all clear.  Alternative currencies, yes, but those backed by something/anything.  Pelts, food, labor, sex, alcohol, a promise to pay, etc.  That something might be utility or force, but waving a hard drive at me and saying, "Here!  See?  I have digital coins!  Give me some stuff for them!" is wishful thinking of a type that makes Pollyanna look like Ebeneezer Scrooge. 

Btc is backed almost entirely by reliance on finding a "bigger fool".  "Oooh, but it has a built-in scarcity mechanism!"  Yeah, so does my navel lint, and I haven't had anyone knocking on the door asking to buy any.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 17:52 | 4225188 bombdog
bombdog's picture

Navel lint.. hmmm could be the next big thing?

Sun, 12/08/2013 - 00:43 | 4226035 digi
digi's picture

BTC cheerleader here reporting for duty.

"What are you going to transfer it to when the CB fiats bite the dust?" 

Goods and services. As you have noted the number of places accepting cryptocurrencies is on the rise, it's easy to write this off as a fad for now. But as many merchants will report it has utility that other payment methods can't provide and that alone is nothing to snark at. But this is more of a means of adoption rather than an answer to your main question.

 "Why then would I give you so much as the sweat off of my balls in exchange for crypto?"

The same reason people trade labor and food for shiny rocks, shells, or pieces of paper with dead men's faces on them. Because they were the most feasible units of account at the time and therefore others accepted them. You seem to be obsessed with force when that has not been the deciding factor with many historical currencies, and really only a limited encouragement rather than something that fully sustains the currency. Who forced others to use gold before fiat was invented? No one, it was used based on its merits as a currency and due to the adoption of the majority because of these merits. So that's a partial yes to your question of, "I'm supposed to use Btc as a medium of my exchange because 'everyone else is doing it'?" Yes, you use it based on it's merits and the mass majorities recognization of those merits.

So back to my original assertion, while some people may be accepting bitcoins in exchange for real goods and services just because it's the latest fad, I can assure you there are plenty who I know of personally who are doing it because they have done the research and they see the benefits of the currency.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:33 | 4224603 Godisanhftbot
Godisanhftbot's picture

 all we need now if for the Winklevoss to come out.....................................and say they decided to liquidate.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:36 | 4224607 stateside
stateside's picture

Why the negativity on bitcoin?  It is just another asset class making alltime highs as those of us with an affection for precious metals finish a 3rd year of losses. Pretty easy to understand. If gold and silver were making new highs, no one would care what bitcoin was doing. Just saying.....

 

Stateside

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 14:54 | 4224744 GrinandBearit
GrinandBearit's picture

Asset class? - LOL!

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 17:31 | 4225126 bombdog
bombdog's picture

In think you're being a little naive. If gold were trading at $3500 I for one would still be saying Bitcoin is dangerous and many others would too. The only thing that would be different is that many of the idiot price chasers involved in Bitcoin right now would be chasing gold and buying the next cyclical top in precious metals instead.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:38 | 4224617 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

"No one saw this coming," they testified before the Hearing Committee.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:57 | 4224660 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

You say Bitcoin has lost half its value.  I say the dollar has made a brief recovery against it.  Bitcoin was 300 dollars on November 11th.  Over the course of the next month the dollar lost 75% of its value as bitcoin went to 1200.  Today we stand at 800 with the dollar still down over 60% against it.  I'll keep my bitcoins TYVM.

The Bitcoin Channel

Silver For The People

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 17:45 | 4225162 bombdog
bombdog's picture

I was on a train today for an hour. You might say the train took me home, but I say that whilst I was on the train the Earth rotated underneath it at about 80 mph until my city arrived at the train and I got off.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 14:01 | 4224667 StuntPope
StuntPope's picture

I sold it all and bought gold and silver with it on wednesday, bitches.

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 14:43 | 4224732 Trimmed Hedge
Trimmed Hedge's picture

When BTC hit parity with gold, I wisely traded all my gold for Bitcoins..

Who's the stupid one now??

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 17:14 | 4225088 chemystical
chemystical's picture

In 2014 I propose that we refrain from using "bitches", "bitchez", and "moar".  When ghetto patois becomes so hackneyed as to be used by "my grandmother" then it's long past time to move on.

We should also refrain from posting unsubstantiated bullshit. 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 14:23 | 4224706 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

I don't care about fluctuations. The trend is my friend:

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=bitcoin

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 14:30 | 4224715 knowshitsurelock
knowshitsurelock's picture

I think I read somewhere years ago (probably in the Warren Buffett Way) that capital always seeks its highest and best use, and will always flow toward this.

Isn't this what is happening with Bitcoin?

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 20:23 | 4225524 slyhill
slyhill's picture

malinvestment via QE 

Sat, 12/07/2013 - 14:33 | 4224723 Trimmed Hedge
Trimmed Hedge's picture

Alternate Headline: Bitcoin Surges 35% in 2 Hours

 

Why does Taylor always have to be so negative??

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