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Americans React To End Of Jobless Benefits: “I Just Don’t Know What To Do, Except Pray”

Tyler Durden's picture




 

"It's going to put my family and me out on the streets," is a perspective shared by many of the 1.3 million Americans about to lose their emergency unemployment claims. The program, started during the recession, was intended to help jobless people after they exhausted state benefits, typically lasting six months. House Republicans resisted continuing the benefits without budget cuts elsewhere to cover the cost. As Bloomberg reports, opponents say the extended benefits discourage the unemployed from accepting jobs and that the program should be curtailed, given the recovery in the nation’s labor market.

Via Bloomberg,

It lacks compassion for the victims of the recession and, economically, it’s shooting ourselves in the foot,” said Lawrence Mishel, the president of the Economic Policy Institute in Washington, which backs policies that help low-income workers. “The timing is very premature. The evidence is that people who want work can’t find it.”

 

...

 

The economy has now been out of a recession for more than four years,” said Chris Edwards, an economist with the Cato Institute in Washington, which argues for scaling back the role of government. “These unemployment benefits are emergency benefits, but the economy is no longer in an emergency situation. People can find jobs if they are willing to moderate their wage demands and make compromises.”

 

...

 

“Not all of us have savings and a lot of us have to take care of family because of what happened in the economy,” said Walker, of Santa Clarita, who said she has applied for at least three jobs a week and shares an apartment with her unemployed son, his wife and two children. “It’s going to put my family and me out on the streets.”

 

...

 

There were 3.9 million job openings across the U.S. at the end of October, according to the Labor Department. That same month, 11.3 million people were looking for work but couldn’t find it, a gap advocates say underscores the need to keep benefits flowing.

 

...

 

Failure to extend the program will affect 1.9 million people who are forecast to use up their state benefits in the first half of 2014 before they can find work, according to the White House.

 

...

 

The effect will be especially pronounced in the most-populous U.S. states. In New York, 102,700 people were expected to lose their benefits on Dec. 28, said Chris White, a spokesman for the state’s labor department. In New Jersey, about 90,300 will do the same, according to estimates from Democrats on the House Ways and Means Committee. More than 222,000 Californians will likewise see their benefits disappear.

 

...

 

“I understand the government doesn’t want to pay for people who are taking advantage of it,” she said. “But I am not, and many other people are not.”

 

“I just don’t know what to do, except pray.”

Of course, as we discussed in detail previously, this will mean a notable drop in the unemployment rate (for what that is worth)...

 

This has profound implications for the oh-so-important unemployment rate that  the Fed is so dependent upon...

JPM's Feroli: One observation that could set an upper bound on thinking about a participation effect is to hypothesize that all 1.3 million EUC claimants exit the labor force after benefits expire in 1Q (again, should Congress allow that to happen). In that case, the unemployment rate would fall by 0.8%-pt, obviously an extreme example. Some of the Fed studies can help to narrow the range of outcomes.

 

One of the more recent works (Farber and Valletta from the San Francisco Fed) indicates that about a fifth of long-term unemployment is due to extended benefits. With just over 4 million long-term unemployed recently, this would imply that the absence of extended UI benefits could lower the unemployment rate by 0.5%-pt.

This will directly impact the Fed's credibility to manage the economt in a "data-dependent" manner:

JPM's Feroli: Setting aside the normative aspect of whether from a public policy perspective this is a desirable or undesirable outcome, such a fall in the unemployment and participation rates could create some tricky choices for Fed policymakers as they assess the health of the labor market.

 

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Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:38 | 4285096 PR Guy
PR Guy's picture

2+2=3 ...... no need to count the starving and the homeless in the unemployment figures.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:48 | 4285134 aint no fortuna...
aint no fortunate son's picture

yah, and because millions of 20 hr/week part time chobs with NO benefits have the same "buying power" for the consumer economy as a full time 40 hr/week FULL benefits chob... duh, everybody knows that

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:22 | 4285596 BurningFuld
BurningFuld's picture

I'm missing something. Isn't Obamacare going to give everyone bennefits?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:03 | 4285754 gatorengineer
gatorengineer's picture

Thats called Medicaid, and all Obama care has done is swell the rolls of it.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:46 | 4285419 U4 eee aaa
U4 eee aaa's picture

Exactly. One number gave up looking to get into the equation

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:47 | 4285141 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

I slight revision to lesson #1:

 

Lession #1:  The answer is "5".  No need to bother yourself with the details.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:51 | 4285439 graspAU
graspAU's picture

But the best answer is 2+2 = any other number but 4. This leaves much flexibility to choose many numbers depending on what is needed at the time.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:42 | 4285121 toady
toady's picture

Exactly the Republicans point. Millions of people are riding unemployment, waiting for good paying jobs with benefits to arrive, but they aren't coming back.

Time to bite the bullet and make that minimum wage 'career change'.

The corporations need to suppress wages or they won't win the race to the bottom.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:29 | 4285330 Toolshed
Toolshed's picture

Be serious. Crime is much, much more profitable. And the tax environment is much more inviting. Crime pays - just ask a banker.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 16:48 | 4286373 toady
toady's picture

Good point, although any serious money scams are probably beyond the imagination of people who can only make money through UI.

No, the bulk of them will flip burgers.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:49 | 4285418 Oldrepublic
Oldrepublic's picture

toady

or move to one of the BRICS

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:24 | 4285325 firstdivision
firstdivision's picture

I cannot wait to see what happens with the unemployed ex-police officers when they're cutoff. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:59 | 4285473 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

A lot of them will break bad, and they'll be successful at it. Some years back I remember watching a true crime show on one of the cable channels about a string of unsovled bank robberies. Finally they got lucky, because these guys were careful and smart and knew everything they needed to know to pull off these daring daytime robberies. The gang was a group of police officers. Get ready to pay protection (in the Tony Soprano sense) on top of your taxes. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:24 | 4285605 aerojet
aerojet's picture

There was a serial bank robber in Minnesota last year--full time member of the Minneapolis police dept, SWAT even.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:05 | 4285752 gatorengineer
gatorengineer's picture

Really where?  There are none to be found.  Gubermint employment federal state local level is growing, this includes Cops.  A few bankrupt cities make the news, but the vast majority are hiring cops like crazy getting ready for the day the ATM cards dont work, and the EBT cards do.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 16:28 | 4286300 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

What statistics do you have to show that state and local gov't employee has grown?  It has been sharply reduced overall and still hasn't rebounded to anywhere near '08 aggregrate levels. 

State and local gov't can't pull the same magic budget tricks the feds can annually. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 20:12 | 4286904 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

BS gummit worker unemployment rate is 2.6%.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:33 | 4285083 TheFreeLance
TheFreeLance's picture

So the food riots start as soon as the hangovers clear?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:51 | 4285151 Gazooks
Gazooks's picture

no food riots, hangovers won't clear

 

while nobody's watching

 

Fukushima met Godzilla

 

mated, and ate the future

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:10 | 4285264 headhunt
headhunt's picture

Why do you think there are so many alcholics in Russia?

Welcome to the USSA!

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:33 | 4285084 lunaticfringe
lunaticfringe's picture

In the meantime, the DJIA makes 50 record highs during the year. It's a wonderful world for 2% of us.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:37 | 4285104 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

1%.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:50 | 4285159 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

.1%

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:06 | 4285757 gatorengineer
gatorengineer's picture

0.01%

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:32 | 4285091 Gordon Freeman
Gordon Freeman's picture

Boo-hoo-hoo! Guess I'll just have to finish that SSI application I've been putting off...

What a load of crap.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:39 | 4285099 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

Really dude?  Mcdonalds had what......946,000 applications and hired like 50k of them?

There are NOT enough jobs for these people.  Let alone anything that pays.

I agree many are losers like you mention but better have some compassion because if you think millions of people sitting around starving is going to benefit you in the long run in most cases you are sadly mistaken it is going to spread like a bad virus.  Everything is innerconnected and i'm quite certain you aren't in the top 1% so be careful what you wish for.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:55 | 4285183 Dr. Kenneth Noi...
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater's picture

Plenty of jobs outside of Hightaxland..  In fact, walking into my local Buc-ee's I saw they had "Minimum Wage: $11-12" plastered above the front entrance..  No wonder they have the cleanest bathrooms..

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:26 | 4285320 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

And, magically, outside of hightaxland a dollar tends to go a bit further...  the cost of living much cheaper...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 20:12 | 4286913 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

Not enough jobs for these retarted PEOPLE....   there fixed it for ya.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:02 | 4285477 11b40
11b40's picture

That's real funny.  Plenty of jobs outside of hightaxland.  HaHaHa.

I just got back from visiting my 89 year old Mother in rural SW GA.  They have very low taxes, a low cost of living, and no jobs.  I travel all around the Southeast, and have for going on 40 years.  The shriveled up towns and communities that were once thriving are a pathetic sight, and if you spend enough time with the people from those places, you come to understand the desperation and the fear.  Pick up some of the local papers, and what you see looks like the police blotter.  Crime is rampant, and anything not guarded is subject to being stolen.  Arrests for assaults, drunkeness, drugs are all through the roof.  The tax base is gone, and infrastructure is crumbling.  Main street is dead.....America's heartland is dying.  Huge swaths of the country does look as if it is inhabited by zombies.

No Jobs, no Purpose, no Pride or Dignity....just depression brought on by a downward spiral.

But, hey, all must be good cause they do have a 24hr WalMart (you should see that place about 11:00 on Saturday night).

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 16:31 | 4286310 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

Yup.  I traveled to a friend's cabin in SW PA and outside of the gas boom (which isn't soem 25-50 year industry but more of a 5-10 year boom at best)  is it desperation city.  

Rural America is dying and is contrarily to the nonsense you read on here in big trouble in most parts. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:09 | 4285251 headhunt
headhunt's picture

14+ million illegals diluting the job pool and pay structure.

We are a country committing suicide by means of political correctness.

I don't think anyone blames the illegals for wanting a better life but we need to take care of our own first.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 17:07 | 4286417 zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

Like sending our jobs to CHINA??

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:26 | 4285333 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

millions of people sitting around starving

But we really don't know if that will happen, do we? Because when people are faced with a stark reality they tend to become a bit more focused on dealing with that reality (and getting a job). The whole idea of extended welfare unemployment is that "we'll give people a low but quite livable lifestyle which will motivate them to go out and find a good, middle-class job". Well, guess what? A lot of people are happy with a low but quite livable lifestyle if it means they don't have to work at all.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:04 | 4285522 11b40
11b40's picture

Try to remember that these are unemployment benefits we are talking about.  These were people who were productive and proud to be contributing - and the vast majority want to be productive again.

So, we cut off these benefits, then what?  Well, I guess they just mosey over to the welfare line and get a different kind of benefit.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:31 | 4285620 aerojet
aerojet's picture

The dead wood of most corporations was never productive.  It was a form of welfare to keep them on the payroll at all.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:52 | 4285158 rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

"Boo-hoo-hoo! Guess I'll just have to finish that SSI application I've been putting off..."

You either:

1. Forgot the /sarc tag

2. Are a huge asshole

I'm guessing it's number 2.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:33 | 4285093 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

1000's of people die everyday due to poverty.  That proves 'praying' is a waste of time.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:37 | 4285102 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

Your conclusion indicates to me that you may not understand prayer as it relates to the Western Abrahamic God. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:43 | 4285115 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

I recently read that people of planet Earth pray to some 300 different gods.  And all of them think their god is the only one to pray to. 

I guess I will create an iphone app where I can say one prayer and text it to all 300.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:46 | 4285116 VD
VD's picture

the rubes up in here are a trip...

 

and yeah Pascal's Wager ain't valid any longer, except maybe to subset of 'religious' folkz...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:17 | 4285220 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

300? You really need to brush up on your world religions. Try counting the gods of hinduism.

Edit: Try this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hindu_deities

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:33 | 4285357 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

pascal's wager was never valid...  the same logic that gave birth to the flying spaghetti monster was around the day pascal began pontificating.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:44 | 4285122 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

And all of them think their god is the only one to pray to.

That sounds like bad information written by an ignorant author.  Where did you read that?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:47 | 4285128 VD
VD's picture

hey hedgeless how much do you think TWTR is worth?

 

LOL!!! the know-it-all's know all up in here! LOL!!!

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:48 | 4285136 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

I don't know, something more than your failed blog.

http://vastdom.blogspot.com/

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:48 | 4285138 VD
VD's picture

who is this vastdom?

 

and where's YOUR blog?? (i'm sure if you had one, it'd have some nice homemade abattoir pics LOL!!!)

 

LOL!!!!

 

and u didnt answer the question: how much do YOU think TWTR is worth? maybe you could pray for the right answer¿¿¿

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:32 | 4285328 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Take a look in the mirror vastdom. There you will see the POS that is a stain on this board.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:36 | 4285382 superflex
superflex's picture

He's still got his vegan vagina all knotted up over the pics of that delicious rabbit HH prepared.

 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:50 | 4285161 Jaspergers
Jaspergers's picture

@rsnoble  "I prayed for a ferrari and god didn't give me one, therefore god doesn't exist!" lol dig deeper or leave it alone.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:53 | 4285178 VD
VD's picture

u didnt pray hard enough nor to the 'right' deity, clearly....

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:03 | 4285222 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

Dear FED......I will suck your cock and fuck over as many lemmings as possible.  Now give me that new car.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:08 | 4285238 VD
VD's picture

now that's a prayer worth repeating, so long as you are VERY CLOSE to the cocks printing money. at very least close enough for your tongue to be able to lick that tip (of Yellen's cock soon).

 

but but but: "That sounds like bad information written by an ignorant author. " "you may not have..."  LOL!!!!

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:01 | 4285213 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

Ok Look.......for the record I don't have a problem with praying.  It's simply meant as sitting around wishing for something better to happen is probably going to do more harm than good based on previous results.  If you want to pray fine just don't treat it as if it's the only thing you have left because most likely you will be disappointed.  There could also be other benefits like bringing people together for a common cause which would be much more beneficial than waiting on some fairytale scripture to save you.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:05 | 4285229 VD
VD's picture

rsnoble: there are too many fucking rubes commenting here: you will NOT change them nor should you try. they haven't understood most rudimentary tenets of Fight Club, they don't trade, they just crap out their mostly ignorant opinions here a lot and it's a shame bc the actual content by Tylerz is all around excellent....

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:13 | 4285269 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

...they don't trade, they just crap out their mostly ignorant opinions here...

Not unlike your own comments and opinions, VD.

http://vastdom.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2012-01-01T00:00:00-05:00...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:19 | 4285282 VD
VD's picture

i agree with that post. it actually helps one trade: front run the Fed and make $$$, but be nimble enough to get the fuck out of your positions and fast. that could take a week or years though, so trade cautiously. yes it is centrally planned and that should be large component of your trading parameters. correct.

 

get it?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:43 | 4285377 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

How about we each propose a trade for Q1 2014? 

Buy 12:00 Eastern today, sell at noon the last day of the quarter, but we can close it earlier by posting we are doing so.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:51 | 4285435 superflex
superflex's picture

No suprise, the silence is deafening from VD

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:00 | 4285464 VD
VD's picture

what can you possibly offer as a trade¿¿¿ and how will YOU (with an original concept predicated on actual RESEARCH) come to this trade¿¿¿ amuse me....

 

and u clearly did NOT comprehend my previous post TIMEFRAME-WISE!

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:02 | 4285501 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

Please propose a different time frame, and your trade.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:14 | 4285549 eclectic syncretist
eclectic syncretist's picture

I propose to hold cash for the first quarter 2014, against whatever trades VD cares to make, and bet he does worse in the end.  LOL!

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:32 | 4286066 VD
VD's picture

tips are for waitresses. you started this inane 'bet' so why don't YOU go first? show us EXACTLY HOW YOU ARRIVE AT THIS TRADE OF YOURS AND I'll give you an idea of my narrative on trades. is that fair? and yes, cash on sidelines is an excellent move if, assuming you're not making money/positioned on current trades.

 

it's so easy to make guesses and PRAY for the best, but it's much more difficult to have a legit trading strategy so amuse us hedgeless, between your time slaying rabbits and taking long hikes......and of course posting here...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:47 | 4286093 VD
VD's picture

and i'll give you a bonus: i'm closing out my last trade sometime tomorrow which i got into a few months ago: i'll hit u wit the timestamp and then u can start praying to me.

 

and it's beyond obvious that you are a rank amateur if you are going to draw any meaningful conclusions on a one single time-based bet: let me teach you something if that's possible: it's the TRACK RECORD that counts, not a single move. get it?

do you have a track record? do you do research? or are you just reaching here?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:58 | 4285745 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

After reading that link, I get it.  VD = Vast Dumb

I'm going to pray to Obama that you get a $100,000 deductible for only $1500/mo.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:45 | 4285401 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

I put in an application to be a Bankster; you can all be 100 percent assured that I, as a freshly minted Bankster, will prey every minute I am awake.

When asleep I'll think of new ways to prey!

Naw fuck it, I'll just go back to panhandling.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:41 | 4285400 Oldrepublic
Oldrepublic's picture

"If wishes were horses, beggars would ride"

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:55 | 4285129 i-dog
i-dog's picture

 

"I guess I will create an iphone app where I can say one prayer and text it to all 300"

Ahhh ... the entrepreneurial spirit. Love it! It's what made America great...until it got smug....

If those 1.3m aren't prepared to accept a job for whatever the market will bear for them, then maybe they should be looking to re-engage some of that entrepreneurial spirit again.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:18 | 4285296 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

Correct but somewhere between Point A and Point B there's going to be a huge shakedown.  It's inevitable and therefore another reason not to waste time praying.  Fact of the matter most of those people will NOT be prepared to accept that job and will lose everything in the process and a very small % will engage in the entrepreneurial spirt unless that includes theft and prostitution.  What's going to happen when millions are left with nothing is anything but a smooth transition.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:30 | 4285346 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

I think there would be a huge market for legalized prostitution in the U.S. The tax revenues would be way more than from legalizing marijuana. Make pimping illegal. Make soliciting underage prostitution illegal. Make prostitution between two consenting adults legal. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:39 | 4285378 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

At least with sex tourism, the tourists don't leave with anything other than a burning sensation during urination...  I'm much rather them own that than prime real estate...  not that it matters, since the yokels will part them from it soon enough, but I digress...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:38 | 4285388 i-dog
i-dog's picture

Soon, everyone on government benefits will be moved to means-tested (controlled spending) electronic payments ... GovCoin. Who knows when the debt bubble will burst - but, when it does, there will be a new paradigm in government control of 'resources'.

Many more jobs are going to be lost in just the next few years to offshored production (as taxes are raised and raised) as well as to considerably more automation of the service econony. This means many many more will become dependent on government managing their 'income'. It's inevitable ... unless states secede and go it alone with rational deregulation of small business.

JMO.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:35 | 4285376 PT
PT's picture

I look forward to the day when real estate sells for whatever price the market will bear.  No, I won't hold my breath.

On the plus side, if you don't have a house then you don't need to buy furniture ... 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:55 | 4285167 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:50 | 4285143 Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

But I thought Lincoln was dead?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:10 | 4285258 Blazed
Blazed's picture

Ouch.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:11 | 4285265 Blazed
Blazed's picture

The Abrahamic deities aren't Western!

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:31 | 4285315 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

The Abrahamic deities aren't Western!

Deities?  I am referring to the one God of Abraham, who was initially known as Abram, and came from the city of Ur in Mesopotamia. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:53 | 4285371 Blazed
Blazed's picture

@hedgeless_horseman,

One god, or triunes, or many takes on the "one god", or various deities blended, borrowed from, compiled, constructed, etc. Either way Mesopotamia isn't in the West, it is the Middle East.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:51 | 4285444 Idisq
Idisq's picture

loon... drop the religious bullshit! you are born, you die. quit being a child afraid of death.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:57 | 4285479 VD
VD's picture

well typed Idisq! but when will the non-loon non-rubes b a majority up in these comment sectionz¿¿¿

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:58 | 4285490 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

I don't know what you mean by religious bullshit.  Abraham is generally recognized as the father of monotheism. 

I agree I was born and will die.  I am not afraid of death.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:25 | 4285598 Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

I like you HH but does that come from the big story book?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:32 | 4285623 aerojet
aerojet's picture

Shit in one hand and pray in the other and see which one fills up first.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:56 | 4285142 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

Re: rsnoble

That's not a well thought out statement. People dying due to poverty and the act of praying (or not) are not directly linked.

Did all of those in poverty pray? To whom did they pray? Was their poverty self-inflicted (addictions from drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc.), or was it externally caused?

This is a wicked old world and yes 1,000's of people die every day. Once born, death is a certainty. So your statement would be 'true' if put in opposite or contrary terms, such as:

1,000's of wealthy people die every day. That proves 'praying' is a waste of time.  Or,

Millions of people live every day. That proves 'praying' is a waste of time.

Here's your form of logic:

Major premise: 1,000's of people die every day

Minor premise: They were poor

Conclusion: Praying is a waste of time.

Conclusion might as well have been, "Lack of peanut butter sandwiches causes death". It just has nothing to do with the premises.

 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:04 | 4285212 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

To my downvoters: instead of just clicking the red arrow because you don't like what I said, why not argue my point?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:13 | 4285263 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

That would require first thinking through their own beliefs and then mustering up the temerity to articulate their positions in public.

A tough call for many who live in their mother's basement...

DaddyO

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:21 | 4285294 VD
VD's picture

and tough for those that live in their mother's barns too.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:49 | 4285423 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

Nice double entendre VD.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:34 | 4285363 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

Because the CANNOT argue against your point as your logic is sound.

 

Many just are content to belong to the Animal Kingdom, deny God, and desire to justify their Animal Behavior.

 

Most atheists, as I have previously demonstrated, are just irrational.

 

They need to read Nietzsche's "Beyond Good and Evil" and adopt those principles. But they do not and they "Moralize" about the "Evils" of Unemployment and other such nonsense.

 

It is survival of the fittest in the Animal Kingdom. The Strong survive while the weak perish. There is nothing Good or Evil about that...if you are a consistent and RATIONAL ATHEIST..

 

Even Ayn Rand was well instructed by her mentor, Friedrich Nietzsche.

 

That is the reason you will just receive down arrows instead of debate.

 

Most atheists are irrational dullards.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:39 | 4285395 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

I contend that our ability to deny god is what separates us from the other animals...  nice ad hominems though. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:43 | 4285682 aerojet
aerojet's picture

I feel the same way about religious people--dullards.  You are so wrong if you think that only religious people are capable of compassion and acting beyond basic "animal behavior" which is just childish, frankly.  What's most hilarious about all this is how the whole story of Jesus is just a poorly rehashed sun-worship myth.  This is what a whole religion of mindless do-gooding and meddling was founded upon.  And it mightily pisses them off to have it explained because it does not jibe with their idiotic beliefs.

What is irrational about being an atheist? It is a perfectly rational approach to life.  I can appreciate the reverence for solar and other astral phenomenon and not have to accept the guilt and the baggage.  They took this cute little parable and built a colossal waste of time out of it! 

What is irrational is reading the Bible and then interpreting that as fact, despite there being no historical backing for any of it.  It's clearly made up, but irrational people the world over have convinced themselves otherwise, indeed, going to great lengths to search only for supporting details while ignoring evidence to the contrary.  So fundamentally, you're sitting here telling everyone who doesn't agree with you that they wrong, meanwhile, your own basis for all of this is was made up.  That it was made up in the 10th century doesn't matter.  Nothing is "rational" when it comes to belief, nothing whatsoever.  Believe all you want, knock yourself out, but quit the moral high-horse already.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:29 | 4285845 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

I can take the Moral High Ground as I do believe in God.

 

What is irrational is that you sit and declare actions as "Evil".

 

Since you deny God and are just part of the ANIMAL KINGDOM then I expect that you will behave as...AN ANIMAL.

 

From your position what I can expect is an action of PREFERENCE as there is no STANDARD of behavior. It is just what you may like, or, dislike, and that is merely upon your whims.

 

It would not shock me if you buttfucked your own children as the Alpha Male Chimpanzees do that.

 

You place yourself in the Animal Kingdom. Not me.

 

You ought to read Nietzsche's, "Beyond Good and Evil" and find out the rational and logical conclusion to atheism.

 

As for me...Yes I will take the High Ground. I know, AS A MORAL CERTAINTY,  that I am above that of the Animals...unlike...YOU.

 

I am not writing that you are incapable of Moral Behavior. I am writing that I do not expect it from you because of your CHOSEN position...that of an ANIMAL.

 

LMAO.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:08 | 4285982 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Through moral relativism and consistency, we can arrive at a pretty complete moral code...  is the golden rule uniquely divine?  Didn't the objectivists have a point?  Obviously there is a bit of a sore spot for sociopaths, but if you're going to design a system, it's probably best to focus on the rules rather than the exceptions.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:29 | 4286623 Captain Kink
Captain Kink's picture

It's not just perfectly resonable to be an atheist.  It's not just rational.  it doesn't mean one is an animal in any derogatory sense.  But we are Animals.  Far from as perfectly suited to our environments as the Crocodile or Cock Roach, as Natural Selection no longer properly acts on the species, and yet we are graced with mind.  Some moreso than others.  The social animal makes a compact based on honor, not becasue his religion tells him to, but becasue he wants to get somewhere in his dealings with others.  Atheism can lead to nihilism, when the individual fails to make his own meaning and purpose.  Beyond that, however, is a desire to maximize the one life you have, accepting that we truly are mortal in the most final sense.  

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:59 | 4285611 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

That their logic was flawed doesn't invalidate the point that thousands die every day of poverty, but to pray for worldly possessions or improvement in one's lot in life is the religious practice of a child and not at all the way I understand the function of prayer. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tGuJ34062s

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:12 | 4285254 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

This is where you lost me:

"To whom did they pray".

Like I mentioned earlier everyone thinks they are right.  Where is the proof?  God didn't write the bible, man did.  Next thing you will tell me is that dinosaurs never existed.

I totally disagree with you.  But that's ok I don't care for communism either.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:26 | 4285321 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

How did you make the leap from poverty and praying to dinosaurs? You need to take a course in logic. It will really help you to put together a cohesive argument.

For the record, I do believe that dinosaurs existed, though for the life of me I cannot see the link. Maybe that's the 'missing link" you've been waiting to discover?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:47 | 4285411 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

There is a trend in the gaps in the fossil record...  hint: over time they're not expanding.  Aside from the fact that a paradox of any theory doesn't give rise to a presumption in god...  so I'm not sure where you're going with that one.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:58 | 4285468 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

You missed my point. I'm not arguing about dinos. I'm pointing out there is a huge GAP in rsnobles 'logic', and rather than fill it in, he jumped to another off-topic.

It's something like, oh, I don't know, maybe ... a sense of humour?

There is a huge gap between his major/minor premise and his conclusions against prayer. I was not even arguing that "prayer works" (that's a whole different debate). I pointed out to him that his assertion that it doesn't was not proved by his statement.

It's too bad that so many here only want to spout their opinions without the desire to think critically as to what that opinion is founded upon and to hear a reasoned arguement that may disagree.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:19 | 4285568 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

Thanks Deo Vindice, you are correct.. there are a lot folks on here that would do well in studying the basic of logic..  You get a thumbs up from me

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:21 | 4285578 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

It's great to point out peoples' follies...  it's greater to offer something fruitful in response...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:34 | 4285633 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

Ok...here is something fruitful!

 

For those ZH readers having trouble with understanding basic logic in arguments,  I have book suggestion:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Logic-The-Basics-Jc-Beall/dp/0415774993

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:32 | 4285340 Vuke
Vuke's picture

Everyone knows those dinosaur bones were planted just to test our Faith.....

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:30 | 4285478 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

Well, I guess that makes me a non-entity as I didn't know that. (I've heard that, but I didn't know that).

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:43 | 4285693 aerojet
aerojet's picture

Anyone believing that is dangerous--they could justify anything.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:20 | 4285819 PT
PT's picture

No.  He just wanted to see how you would explain them away.

No, they're just the bits that were left over!  Just like the broken tiles found around a newly built house.

No, they were just God's first ideas but then He got some better ideas.

No, He put them there so we could end up with a couple of years supply of oil a few million years later.  Notice how He put most of it in the Middle East?  You hoped you could ignore that region but nooooooo, He gave you something to think about.  "Ha!  Solve that one!!!", He sez.

:P

 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:57 | 4285482 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Any of these gods have Tacitus writing about them as a neutral observer??  Jesus is the only one with a historical written record established by his putatative enemies, who's the rube?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:22 | 4285301 Blazed
Blazed's picture

Prayer flunks all around, whether people knew they were being prayed for or not. Those prayed for actually had more heart complications and problems. 

"In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for — 59 percent — suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain."

"The study also found that more patients in the uninformed prayer group — 18 percent — suffered major complications, like heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group that did not receive prayers. In their report, the researchers suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:31 | 4285335 VD
VD's picture

excellent post Blazed....

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:49 | 4285429 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

If one really wanted to be honest about his prayers, then he should pray (and ask others to pray) for his quick and painless demise, as soon as possible.  What incentive would there be to stay on this shithole when heaven awaits?  In fact, it might even provide insight into the sincerity of many who claim to be believers...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:22 | 4285593 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

Amen Machoman!!  Too many believers want a genie in a bottle!   You just qouted scripture and may not have even known it!

 

"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain...having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better" (Philip. 1:21-23).

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:42 | 4285690 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

For those of us that draft for a living, this is called "closing a loophole" or "maintaining internal consistency."  If the good book had too many holes, it would be difficult for anyone to partake...  of course, that doesn't lend any credibility...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:35 | 4285437 Blazed
Blazed's picture

Thanks VD.

Now that isn't to say prayer, wishful thinking, posititve thinking, etc, couldn't be useful for those doing the praying, as it may help one lower anxiety and stress, at least temporarily, but it still doesn't fundamentally change an external physical situation or problem. Basically, it could change the neural/emotive reaction to a problem, like stress response. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:10 | 4285512 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

This is just DEMONSTRATIVE of the Press not understanding MATH or Statistics.

 

Statistical SIGNIFICANCE means that there is a CORRELATION

 

Let's use some CRITICAL ANALYSIS..which you consistently seem to lack, VD.

 

In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for — 59 percent — suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain."

"The study also found that more patients in the uninformed prayer group --18 percent -- suffered major complications, like heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group that did not receive prayers. In their report, (sic) the researchers suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance."

 

So the article states a significance and then contradicts itself by declaring that there was not significance as the results "...might also be a result of chance."

 

And you are so fucking STUPID that you buy it??? LMAO at YOU, VD. You are such a fucking idiot.

 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:40 | 4285100 Glass Seagull
Glass Seagull's picture

 

 

They're just going to go on SS disability...it's the safety net's safety net, don't you know?  Look for diagnoses of "crippling depression" to rise (even more) in 2014.  Diagnosis deviations from norm will probably correlate to the LFPR.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:51 | 4285148 Winston of Oceania
Winston of Oceania's picture

You know what happens to CONSUMERS who through "crippling depression" cause a strain on the system don't you? Soylant Green I tell ya, just like George B Shaw used to opine, if you can't justify your existance to the State every five years you should be euthanized.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:58 | 4285202 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

unfortunatly you are probably right. being depressed from not finding a job wil be a disability. Long big-pharma. get these poor depressed people some happy pills....

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 22:10 | 4287177 Nick Jihad
Nick Jihad's picture

to say nothing of being morbidly obese from sitting watching TV all day. That's really depressing, and makes it hard to get hired as well.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:53 | 4285443 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

As these programs come under more scrutiny and budget constraints, I'd say the opposite will happen...  tack on changes in the DSM and diagnosing criteria combined with a few high profile ethics actions against practitioners and all the pressure is to the downside.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:38 | 4285106 wisehiney
wisehiney's picture

America can come to its knees or be brought to its knees.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:38 | 4285107 ChaosEquilibrium
ChaosEquilibrium's picture

I understand the cost is 25 Billion  over 3 months!

 

Bernanke is dropping 85 Billion a MONTH in keeping Bankers, Private Equity, Traders EMPLOYED!!!

 

Who is YOUR DADDY?

 

ROLL THE ROPES!

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:43 | 4285125 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

I am and I say this isn't going to end well!!

DaddyO

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:44 | 4285126 Winston of Oceania
Winston of Oceania's picture

The lamposts are waiting...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:36 | 4285360 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

I'll believe that when I see it. The French revolutionaries were lean, hungry people who discussed and organized their revolutionary activities in the wine clubs of Paris. The Americans you think will rise up are obese, drug-addled, video screen obsessed people who only want to sit on their couch all day and stuff their faces with hot pockets. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:56 | 4285453 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

You don't think the ranks will get leaner as everyone has to cook their own meals, exercise to stay healthy because they can't afford doctors, and generally have to perform their own maintenance and work functions around their homes, etc.?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:12 | 4285256 agNau
agNau's picture

And 25/85 x X/30 = x days

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:21 | 4285579 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

I am teaching every single homeless and unemployed person that I know how to build bombs.

 

Bombs are much less expensive than guns. Who needs a gun?

 

http://terminalcornucopia.com/#weapons

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:41 | 4285109 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

The economy has been out of a recession for more than four years said Chris Edwards? 

 

WTF is this guy smoking? The economy has been in a depression for more than 13 years. Welcome to part time  America, where the full time workers have to sign up for public assistance.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:44 | 4285118 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Remember, it's not a lie if YOU believe it.  <George Costanza>

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:58 | 4285198 foxmuldar
foxmuldar's picture

You can't have it both ways. Democrats continue to boast about all the jobs they created since Obama took office. Yet when it comes to Unemployment benefits, then suddenly the economy sucks. Which is it? We both know it sucks but then why did the Obama government say the recession ended four years ago? If we didn't have all those Obama regulations that have been put on business then perhaps more folks would be finding jobs. But I also think that after receiving benefits for almost two years, you better get off your lazy ass and start to look for something. Obama made it too easy by saying folks didn't have to prove their looking for work to receive benefits. Another thing to consider, I'd bet that most of those 1.3 Million are also receiving food stamps and perhaps other welfare benefits. America is becoming a welfare state. Heck thats what got Obozo reelected. Millions of folks on welfare and food stamps and don't forget those Obama phones. Wouldn't want to lose all those goodies now so you better vote for Santa Obama. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:13 | 4285273 Toolshed
Toolshed's picture

-1 for ignorantly perpetuating the left vs right meme. You are a tool of TPTB. Good job.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 22:13 | 4287187 Nick Jihad
Nick Jihad's picture

That the left cultivates a welfare clientele is not a "meme", it's a fact. Since you apparently take pride in being a realist, you might as well acknowledge that bit of reality.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:40 | 4285112 foodstampbarry
foodstampbarry's picture

Whenever I read these stories I can't help but think of Ross Perot.

... And we all laughed at his ears. Who's laughing now?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:53 | 4285162 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

"That sucking sound you hear will be the sound of middle class jobs leaving the country, and they wont be coming back" Ross perot on the passage of NAFTA (probably not the exact quote, but close enough)

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:06 | 4285224 plane jain
plane jain's picture

I voted for Perot.  Felt kind of silly about it after the fact when the UFO incident and other smears were rolled out by the media.

 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:42 | 4285114 No Euros please...
No Euros please we&#039;re British's picture

Meh, you should all move to the UK, everyone else is. Free housing, health service and monthly pay cheque for all immigrants. You don't even have to worry about being made to take a menial low paid job, the eastern Europeans have first dibs on those.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:44 | 4285117 ChaosEquilibrium
ChaosEquilibrium's picture

Who is Chris Edwards...never heard of him.....MUST NOT be important!

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:42 | 4285119 Winston of Oceania
Winston of Oceania's picture

Did anyone really believe they could hide the bread lines forever? Long live what's his name...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:55 | 4285171 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

I dont think they are hiding them, as i mentioned below, they are everywhere, they have just moved from the streets where they are obvious, to walmarts, where they pay with what appears to be a normal credit/debit card

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:42 | 4285120 RabbitChow
RabbitChow's picture

Most on unemployment just want work.  Maybe something that pays a honest days' wage for a honest days' work?  None of the market manipulation or stealing old ladies' pensions.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:40 | 4285387 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

I would agree with what you wrote with a correction "Most on unemployment want to work at the same or better job than they had". Problem is for a lot of people a comparable job to what they had may not be available to them or may not even exist anymore. Understandably, a lot of people don't want to lower their horizons by taking a lower paying, lower skilled job, but in many cases it's a choice between that or unemployment.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:03 | 4285505 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

I think that's a distinction without a difference...  the person's former job is likely what developed their feelings as to what a fair day's pay is for an honest day of work.  The issue is that wages aren't a function of how productive the work is or how valuable it is to the employer, rather wages are based on how difficult it is to replace the employee.  It isn't an issue of simply lowering expectations...  so long as you can stay alive doing it, refusal to enrich others is a valid form of protest.  You're already seeing it from the younger generations who see the system for what it is...  a giant grinder.  It's simply spreading to other folks too.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:48 | 4285135 eddiebe
eddiebe's picture

I just got done talking to God about people praying to Him to get them a job. He was sympathetic, but told me he was back-logged and could not help them at this time.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:04 | 4285207 swmnguy
swmnguy's picture

Really? Most people trying to talk to God get a 404 Error.  Or "Our website is having temporary technical troubles due to unanticipated high volumes.  Please visit again another time."

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:50 | 4285144 dexter_morgan
dexter_morgan's picture

What? I thought I read and heard that jobs were being created left and right so why would they need this continuation?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:50 | 4285146 Racer
Racer's picture

If the country has been out of recession for more than four years and no longer in emergency situation why oh why is the Fed still doing QE for so long???

Rhetorical I know!

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:48 | 4285147 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

this will be intresting. I want to hear one person that gets mainstream attention throw this back in the faces of those on left who applaud our 'recovery' yet at the same time say we still need 2 FUCKING YEARS of unemployment benefits. On what fucking planet do you live when we now have a 'vibrant economy' where we can also have millions needing unemployment benefits for that long. Both of those things cant be true. The only reason this isnt blatantly obvious to even the average dumbass is that bread and soup lines have now moved off the streets and into walmart with their EBT cards.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 12:00 | 4285197 swmnguy
swmnguy's picture

Precisely.  Replacing bread and soup lines with direct-deposit was the most clever thing TPTB have come up with in a very long time.  If all these people saw how many of them there are in any one place, there'd have been riots already.

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