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Overstock's First Day Of Bitcoin: $130,000 Sales, 840 Transactions, CEO "Stunned"
Submitted by Michael Krieger of Liberty Blitzkrieg blog,
Upon the conclusion of the Senate hearing on Bitcoin this past November, I tweeted that I thought we had entered Phase 2 of the Bitcoin story. A month later, following news that Andreessen Horowitz had led an venture capital investment of $25 million in Coinbase, I wrote:
As I tweeted at the time, I think Bitcoin began phase two of its growth and adoption cycle upon the conclusion of the Senate hearings last month (I suggest reading: My Thoughts on the Bitcoin Hearing).
I think phase two will be primarily characterized by two things. More mainstream adoption and ease of use, as well as increasingly large investments by venture capitalists. In the past 24 hours, we have seen evidence of both.
Phase 2 so far is going even more positively than I had expected. Overstock.com accelerated its plans to accept BTC by many months, and the early rollout has been a massive success. The company’s CEO just tweeted:
#Bitcoin's first full day on @overstock.com was a huge success: 840 orders, $130,000 in sales. Almost all new customers. #stunned
— Patrick M. Byrne (@OverstockCEO) January 10, 2014
This is absolutely huge news and any retail CEO worth their salt will immediately begin to look into Bitcoin adoption.
I hope financial publications that missed the biggest financial story of 2013 continue to mock it with covers of unicorns and waterfalls. It’s the most bullish thing I can imagine.
Furthermore, the purchased items are varied...
Items most purchased by #bitcoin users at @overstock: sheets, mobile phone cases, flash drives, bath towels. I expected more video cards.
— Patrick M. Byrne (@OverstockCEO) January 11, 2014
The apparent ease of acceptance and use has spurred demand for Bitcoin itself which has pushed back above $1000...
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Visa offers far more services for the fees they charge. Most importantly, conflict resolution between buyers and sellers, a monthly accounting of charges, a phone number you can call to get information, and even methods to handle the account of a deceased person.
Bitcoin offers almost no services on the transaction. It is basically "shoot and pray," and you'd better hope that you are using the correct payment address, because there is no recourse for erroneous or failed transactions. There isn't even an acknowledgement or receipt of payment through the Bitcoin system. If your payment does not show up on the other end, how do you determine what happened? Perhaps an intensive study of the blockchain could provide information, but it will be too late if a mistake was made.
What a joke!
I have twice within just the last year challenged charges made with my VISA due to the seller/vendor not having delivered merchandise as promised, or for being grossly defective, and tried to go through VISA customer service, only to be essentially told "Take it up with the seller, we can't do anything in THIS case".
Their REAL policies make a mockery of the whole concept of "customer protection". For instance, in one case they refused to block or reimburse my payment to the merchant merely because I opened the package of the damaged merchandise first --- according to VISA, I was supposed to refuse to take delivery of the damaged item which, until opening, I had NO WAY OF KNOWING had been damaged in the first place!
Like so many other products and services nowadays, credit card conflict resolution and so-called "customer protection" is not all that it is made out to be (if in fact it is anything at all).
My condolences. Tell the cc issuer that they can fix your problem or you'll take your business elsewhere? I would also not take "No" for an answer the first time if in fact you received damaged mdse that could not be discovered without opening the package. Speaking of discover....
With Discover I'm 8 for 8 in disputes as a consumer (and with 2 of those I was in the wrong but the vendor couldn't prove it whereas I could provide what at least appeared to be proof and an arument in my favor)
I'll bet gbetting a refund on a bit coin purchase will be a piece of cake.
Trust and reputation are everything in a free market.
Getting a refund after paying with bitcoin will be as difficult as getting a refund after paying with any commodity money such as gold, silver, or bic lighters. There are no charge backs.
This means we must perform due diligence before we make a purchase. It also means we will further develop a web of trust.
We will see more feedback mechanisms such as we see at e-bay and silk road.
This will make business more difficult for shady actors.
Anyone with a reputation to protect will gladly offer a refund when requested. Because they can't stop us from screaming to the world web wide world how we were scewed over by them and everyone else should avoid them.
Due diligence bitchez.
Personal Responsibility bitchez.
Liberty bitchez.
If someone stole my Visa card, I lose nothing. If someone stole my computer with my Bitcoin purse, I lose everything.
You lose any cash you had in the wallet next to the Visa card. By using Visa you externalize the cost of fraud on all users. Bitcoin requires users to manage their finances as if they are using cash or bullion (like grownups).
This bitcoin thing would be really cool if it wasn't so weird. Having a hard time getting my head around it. What happens if my computer crashes,again,today, for the 5th time. Do I go towel-less, or sheet-less, or mobile phone case-less. I like my nickels in my pocket. Think I go get an ice cream ....
You lose all your data 5 times a day?
Dude, even Windows isn't THAT bad.
But seriously, triplicate backups aren't that hard. Hell, a printout of your key in your safe is pretty damn safe.
Yep. I think that Btc is unsustainable, but anyone who tries to advance the "what if I lose them?" argument shouldn't be allowed to touch money (or things resembling it)
The coronal mass ejections argument is plausible but no less foolish.
It's that type of nonsense that leads the Btc pumpers to call all naysayers 'idiots'. Plenty of idiots and fools on both sides of the debate.
You can print out any bitcoin balance on paper.
Just found this cool paper based wallet today: http://piperwallet.com.
Verbot.exe.. ldapproval..."sound of applause"
So as more large bitcoin miners and actors smooth the arbitrage of volitility these public relations moments become possible....yes/yes.
Still the bid up of coins seems meaningless compared to a stable broker/dealer nerwork to allow.."fungibile" monies to flow..it is a stable person or organization willing to convert bitcoins into fiat as requested that allows overstock.com to conduct transactions unless they are now accruing bitcoin (which is actionable intel for any investor..)
So much as my silver has little value to folks outside of industry or the "broker/dealer" network so is bitcoin PR stunt driven by more of you big players calming waters with fungibile monies... good move tho...
You think I like Jamie Dimon. You think I like Loyd Blankfein. You think I like the Goverment of the land I live in being taken over by a bunch of scum buckets.
You better believe I'm going to buy everything I can with Bitcoin.
I don't wish to put cash into the pockets of a few computer nerds who were clever enough to set up their own private money printing press.
It's just my personal decision, and I won't try to justify it. My money, my choice.
Bitcoin has always been open source and the mining network has always been public for anybody to participate. Where were you during all of this? IF bitcoin becomes successful and useful to society then these early adopter nerds will have won the Darwinian survival-of-the-fittest competition. Or perhaps we should strive for a race to the bottom everybody being equal and shit?
I understand the main arguments of the supporters of Bitcoin can be summarized in two words: "If" and "Or".
That's the good words ...
The Bitcoin experiment is still in the early stages. News flash: If getting involved in something that has significant risk is unpalatable for you, Stay The Fuck Away.
You choose bankers over nerds?
What the fuck is your malfunction, numbnuts? Did Momma not love you enough as a child?
I never would have pegged you as a knowledgeable and well-informed proponent of BTC tmosely but nice one. A lovely compliment, and a wonderful hedge over the last two years, to the shiny eh?
One of the hardest things a person can do is actually change their mind when presented with new information.
This is what I managed to do when presented with the case for bitcoin. Bitcoinx is at least 1000 times as exciting as bitcoin, but bitcoin is plenty good on its own. Fuck Western Union, fuck credit card companies, and fuck governments that impose capital controls. Bitcoin fucks them all quite nicely.
Many of the passengers of the Titanic also changed their minds about sea travel, before death.
They were very progressive people and they too believed in the new information on scientific and technological progress. Amen.
Do you really believe that the development and take-off of the project bitcoin occurred without the participation of the bankers?
Sorry, but you are very naive.
As a business I would think it behoove you to be the "last mover" for adoption as opposed to "first mover". The risk in bitcoin would seem to be high if the government decides it doesn't want currency competition. Now you have miilions of dollars "worth" of bitcoin that have just been deemed illegal then you just gave a way a lot of inventory.
Also, if you are going to measure the value of bitcoin in dollars on your books then as a corporate entity wouldn't it make more sense to just take the dollars and remove the political or currency risk?
Unless of course bitcoin is a trial balloon floated by the US government and corporate entities were given the go ahead to accept, then it makes perfect sense and too bad I didn't take the risk on bitcoin when it was 75% less.
One more time ... the retailer has ZERO exposure to Bitcoin - they don't hold or accumulate. It is a transaction currency. The instant you click "send BTC now" a payment processor converts to USD and plonks it in their USD account.
As a previous comment pointed out the MUCH lower transaction fees for BTC v CC represent a significant boost to the bottom line when you are working with very small profit margins on the product.
Thanks, it's actually the first time I've read that explanation. Sorry for leading to your exasperation though you act like you have told me personally 5 times.
Under this scenario, how long do you think the banking cartels will accept being excluded and lose their CC fees revenue? I don't see them just turning a blind eye and it's naive to think they don't have some power that they will exert the minute they feel threatened. In fact, I would suggest the time to worry about bitcoin is the moment a Goldman starts bitching and moaning about it.
Now back to your educating me on bitcoin processing for merchants, they never have skin in bitcoin. So you saying that the only folks holding the bitcoin bag are private citizens. Hmmm... I would be nervous as a bitcoin holder if a company is not more motivated to fight for a bitcoin assuming push came to shove because they aren't exposed to bitcoin for more than a microsecond.
I have an idea, why don't we just digitalize the US dollar? Banks still get theirs, Governement gets what they want out of digital currency while allowing a bitcoin to work out all of the bugs first. Wouldn't that end up being the biggest threat to bitcoin?
Not 100% correct, at least not the way you termed it. Overstock's deal may be different (and many are) but with Bitpay, for example, I the consumer can put an item in my cart, go to checkout, have the price in Btc fixed for whatever I'm purchasing, and I have 15 minutes to click "Agree" or whatever button is there to establish the contract.
So they do have 15 minutes of exposure to volatility to deal with. Is that a lot of time? It clearly can be. Further, after the price is fixed, I am under no obligation to complete the checkout. I don't have time to put items in a basket, and then watch to see if the Btc to USD conversion plummets in my favor, but if I was purchasing a commodity, I'd gladly employ an army of bots to do just that. The only risk to me at that point is the volatility in the commodity I just bought. Aside from that it's like a free and risk-free futures contract.
The retailer's recourse might be to say that the price shown in the checkout window is subject to change as a function of the exchange rate at the time that I click on "Accept". I wonder how many consumers would do business with terms like that? "Wtf do you mean I was charged 1Btc for that comforter??? When I checked out it was only 0.1 Btc!!!!!!!!"
Someone accepts that risk: Overstock, the consumer, or in this case Coinbase?
Today, the situation with the concept of Bitcoin is one . And tomorrow, the situation with the concept of Bitcoin may be another.
Bitcoin – a product of the Federal Reserve.
Dollar discredited itself in the eyes of the public. The Fed also discredited itself in the eyes of the public.
Of course for Fed was needed make a legend about some Satoshi, which supposedly created Bitcoin, and then he is evaporated.
Thus, the Fed shows for fools (which the majority) that Bitcoin - a system that "does not belong to anyone," and "no one is controlled".
But this is absurd. In the world there are no financial assets and payment systems that have no legal owners,
with a specific name, surname and ID number.
All that is in front of the prefix "The global World or International" - it is the property of the United States. Or controlled by the United States.
Everything else - the local and minor.
Federal Reserve no longer need gold. Now they have a Bitcoin. As soon ends era the first fiat money - the U.S. dollar, immediately begin the era of other fiat money under the control of the Fed - it will Bitcoin.
Bitcoin system has a limit of coins. But Bitcoin system has no limit fragmentation of these coins.
Crushing coins Bitcoin to infinity - it's the same exact Monetary Emission, like printing FRN.
Durrrrrr. I can split a bitcoin into 1 million pieces each worth a millionth of a bitcoin. Then all the king's horses and all the king's men CAN put them all back together again. So what? This is the stupidest and wrongest argument about bitcoin but you've managed to spout it on multiple times on this thread.
BTC is a Monsanto tulip bulb. Won't come up next year.
It will come up next year only MUCH BIGGER !!
And more resistant to PARASITES !!
Not buying it.
WTF? seriously? So I do respect the concept of Bitcoin. I adore falling in love with the idea of Bitcoin. I also adore the concept of falling in love with 28 year old immaculately attractive Women.
The reality is that Bitcoin is a fraud.
Another version of fiat currency is merely a replacement version of what we have now, and in an even more insidiously addicting form than we currently contend with.
Shifting gears along the same path, in the same direction.
That's all Bitcoin amounts to.
Just another fucking illusion.........Get rich off it? Sure. A few will and only because it represents another fucking ploy, but a ploy much more ultimately sick even than pieces of paper.
At least we can wipe our asses when the paper becomes what it's actually worth.
I am pleased to see all of the skepticism on ZH. It means I have time to buy more bitcoin and alt coins before the prices go through the roof. The real suckers are the ones who don't "get it" because they offhandedly dismiss bitcoin with no real understanding of why. Not one critic of bitcoin on this site ever has any real legitimate argument, apart from what amounts to calling bitcoin names. Yes the early adopters got rich but there is still time to be an early adopter. This is the new money, get over it.
They are not suckers , it requires a major step-change in the way people think about money , you cannot blame them .
It is normal human behaviour to fight something you do not understand.
no... fools fight what they dont understand... normal human behavior is to learn about what you do not understand
YUp,
that'y why it's known as "fight or flight or sit and ponder".
;p
I don't know what normal behavior is, and I'm not sure the humans existing today are really a good indication of "normal" behavior. We sure seem to have an abundance of fools.
I read ZH to learn and understand the financial world and TPTB. On average an article on ZH gets ~10,000 reads. I'm part of a minority.
My friends don't understand why I read zerohedge during the foolball superbowl. They think I'm foolish.
Yes, it's a good idea. Need to write an article: "Bitcoin - currency of fools."
I know why I would criticize bitcoin, the US Government and the IRS. Until I know how they are going to accept bitcoin, if they choose to accept it at all, then I'm ok being a healthy skeptic watch from the cheap seats.
Your notion of "getting rich" off of a digital currency is also a bit disturbing. History has a way of shitting on most "get rich quick" schemes. You proclaiming it as the "new money" doesn't exactly do anything for it. When the IRS determines that it's legitimate then ok. Anyone that will turn their dollars over for digital currency with no rhyme or reason as to how it is valued, especially at today's rates is asking to get taken. "A fool an his money..."
That being said I personally don't begrudge anyone who makes a mint, no pun intended, off of this or any other idea. I never understood why people that bought gold were insulted either as if the buying of gold was a direct assault. I don't know why anyone would feel better if bitcoin owners are wrong and they go broke. It won't make their lives any better. Your success or failure doesn't affect me one way or the other so what do I care. Yet many take joy in the downfall of others.
Good luck. I hope your enthusiasm and confidence are compensated in the way you wish.
"Your success or failure doesn't affect me one way or the other so what do I care."
Actually Bitcoin does affect you, since it is inflationary.
Someone with Bitcoins mined 2 years ago is now bidding against you to purchase items at Overstock. It is reasonable to assume that Overstock prices will go up proportionally for everyone, as these buyers enter the market, or perhaps Bitcoin buyers get a discount.
The price goes up for the consumer using the commodity as money which is seeing decling demand and/or relatively more money supply inflation while the price goes down for the consumer using the commodity as money which is seeing rising demand and/or relatively less money supply inflation. The two offset each other have a net neutral effect on prices to actors in the economy. Now, chosing to consumer the inferior currency is up to you but you must be prepared to suffer the loses the free market will give to you. What is the end effect? Actors in the econmy select the superior moeny product to consume and stop selecting the inferior money product to consume. Competiton in the money industry gives us more superior money options at a lower cost.
Actors in the econmy select the superior moeny product to consume and stop selecting the inferior money product to consume.
the phrase "consuming money" reminds me of that old Alan Watts line of "eating the menu".
regardless, isn't BTC's success as an alternative transactional medium dependent on its lack of success as an investment vehicle?
Well they are not bidding against me because I haven't "mined" any bitcoins and I don't do business with Overstock. Now if prices for products at the merchants I use go up because of the inflation of bitcoin then I will choose to do business somewhere else. You also assume that they have stopped accepting my form of currency and or that Overstock has found a way to overcome the affects of supply vs demand has on price conundrum that has vexxed business for thousands of years. If bitcoin causes a roll of TP to cost $200 then I suggest to you that the demand for TP will collapse and people will start using leaves thus causing Overstock to choose between lowering the price of TP or going out of business.
I think I will be ok and I submit to you once again the person's success or failure (in which I meant he got richer or poorer) using bitcoin will not affect me whatsoever as I won't allow it. Luckily I am still a person of free will. Yet I heard that free will is being debated in Congress for repeal...
It looks like Singapore just leapt ahead of the USA and has given the precise type of taxation guidance you describe. That makes Singapore a good place to do business using BitCoin.
Read about the details here: http://www.coindesk.com/singapore-government-how-we-intend-tax-bitcoin/
Hmmm I heard that term "don't get it" before, oh yeah on real estate in '06, and tech stocks in '99. Please buy more, I want the pressure to stay off the real wealth.
Or the internet? Real wealth is what, gold and silver that cannot be used as curency in the modern digital age? Got it. Keep stackin dude.
But.... You're NOT buying any more at this price, because you're a dude living in his parent's basement-
Most people don't have an issue with the concept of Bitcoin, but we DO have a problem with small-time hustlers who spend their days looking for a chance to pump the price of Bitcoin, because they have the delusion that the three coins they bought at $150 are someday going to be worth $14,000,000, IF they pump up the market with this pseudo-intellectual dival......
It's no different from any other Pump-And-Dump perpetrated over the past 3000+ years, but you guys somehow think that THIS time is different.....
Why not spend your electricity mining for more Bitcoins, rather than pimping on this forum? Oh yeah, cause it's too late.....
Once again, doubters of bitcoin prove how little they know about bitcoin. Anyone who has actually done the research "gets it" while people who read the words "digital currency" automatically apply words like "bubble" or "tulip bulb" or "1999 tech stock". Those of us who have spent a few minutes actually learning about bitcoin know that the price is not really that important, because the true vale of bitcoin is its ability to transmit value around the world for free and establish a trustworthy mechanism for transactions between two or more parties. When you finally "get it" you will realize that bitcoin is better than gold, it does everything our banking system does only faster, better, and way, way cheaper.
The number of fractional parts Bitcoin is infinity. For this reason, your attempt to comparisons between Bitcoin and gold is mistake.
"You have to hurry, but you won't be late"
Where's the fiat in bitcoin? Fiat means a legal decree, i.e. you must recognize it for the settlement of trade.
What, they don't accept phyz gold or silver for online payments? It is very clear to me now the gold/fiat bug alliance was correct. If I can buy just about anything with bitcoin it is not currency. Physical gold and silver on the otherhand are currency because I can buy nothing with them. The logic is clear as day guys. Keep stackin' all the way down to zero bitchez! #WINNING.
If the govt didn't crush every gold and silver e currency that started up , you would be able to buy anything you wanted with-it. The question is why is the govt being so nice to bitcoin, when it could easily crush it simply by saying American retailers, like overstock, were not aloud to accept it by law. They have an angle, and though early adopters can't be hurt beyond the loss of profit, the ones that get in now can have huge losses.
I agree with you. I was for many years a gold bug waiting for some white knight to come and end the gold and silver manipulation so we can have sound money again. Guess what? When the governments/central banks/regulators/exchanges and basically anyone with a vested interest in perpetuating the current financial system are all in on the game there is nobody to end it. The reality sucks but this is the reality. You can be altruistic and hold gold and silver down to zero for ideological reasons. Or, you can move into something that only exists because the free market needed an alterantive to gold and silver while being manipulated.
Why is the government being so nice to bitcoin? First off there is more than one government in the world. Unless there is a one world government by the NWO or the illimanti or the lizard people or whoever making bitcoin illegal is a prisoners dellima in reverse. Bitcoin is a revolutionary technology that will boost any economy with greater efficiency and REAL economic growth. The government that bans it simply drives that benefit to other countries.
Second, governments already tried to ban bitTorrent. BitTorrent is an open source peer to peer file sharing protocol. Attempts to kill that blew up in their faces. When something is owned by nobody and decentralized there is no way to stop it short of putting everyone in jail. Have you heard of any bitTorrent procecutions recently? Bitcoin is an open source peer ot peer wealth sharing protocol. It has the same properties that prevented goernments from shutting down bitTorrent. I am not a fan of governments, but I think they have enough intelligence to learn if they could not stop bitTorrent from being used by banning it they will not be able to stop bitcoin from being used by banning it. If they do ban it and nobody cares then they are really screwed. So they are likely looking for some other way to try and kill bitcoin. Again it goes back to the reverse prisoner's dellima. If any goverment moves to limit the use or efficiecy of using the bitcoin protocol in their economy the benefits simply get driven overseas to other economies. I am definately happy I am not in government or central bansk now. They are stuck in a place with no exit door.
Hey, you make some compelling points, but I think there are plenty of holes, and I am not going to invest in Bitcoin when it has half of the market value of all the investible silver on earth. Good luck but right now I’m not buying.
"When something is owned by nobody and decentralized there is no way to stop it..." That seems to describe the face of 21st century terrorism as well. Cue the theme to the Twilight Zone.
The ramifications for this are huge in ways that I hadn't even thought of nor have I seen discussed. This should and could change the role of banking does it not? As in why would the majority of banks be needed in the world of digital currencies? No depositors because the masses no longer need the "safety of a bank". No more FDIC insurance needed because no more bank failures. Digital currency would be a real game changer. It could be great for the masses but since that wouldn't be good for the power brokers, digital currencies will be regulated on the backs of the masses making it not so good. In the beginning, like online shopping, the masses will get breaks to accept and transition, only to see those breaks go away once adoption is complete.
If I were a conspiracy theorist then I might conclude the "financial crisis" was manufactured to "legitmize" and speed up the raping of taxpayers and depositers all around the globe as a last hurrah of "old world banking and currency" as a digital "new world currency" will show how needless the current banking system is.
It will be interesting to see how the banking cartels deal with digital currency. It's hard for me to believe that they won't get a piece of that digital pie, unless the last "crisis" was a final bribe for them to step aside.
+1
Digital tulips sure are a sight to behold when they blossom and bloom.
And what better a time for you to turn your back on gold and trade it in for bitcoin, when there are dangerously low inventories on the comex.
Hells no. Keep PMs, get rid of loose fiat.
Gold can not become zero. Even if the U.S. will disappear from the face of the earth, along with the dollar, gold will continue to be valuable for other people.
I think the answer might be that they are behind bitcoin. If bitcoin was the only currency the easier it is for the government to control and monitor every aspect of currency at a tenth of the cost. I had suggested earlier that bitcoin was a trial balloon for the govt.
Consider bitcoin as the govts. petri dish and it is being observed and tested without govt interference. They get all the results without the risk of being known as the architect. Watch for any statement from the IMF or World Bank. The US will be in lockstep to whatever they say. It's the globalist way of going for that "one world currency" I've heard so much about my entire life. Or at least that's the theory for this active imagination.
That makes perfect sense since bitcoin is one of a potentially infinate number of crypto-currencies that all are decentralized, owned by nobody, controlled by nobody and most imporant of all used voluntarily. It is the central planners dream tool to control us. You really have done your research here.
Yep a little pop on the tweet, then drop back to where it came from after overstock immediatly sold that 130,000 in bitcoin right back into the market. It went from hands that had been holding it to hands that wanted to get rid of it as soon as possible.
+1
And it's funny how people getting rid of $100k in bitcoin made the news. Pathetic! Still, bitcoin "investors" are gloating.
I know rite!? If Overstock started accepting silver that would get no mention whatsoever.
If, IF, BitCoin is in ANY way reducing the .gov's/cartel's influence/control/power to print/create/conjour currency, and thereby reducing the same's level of overall influence/control/power over the lives of human beings, then may BitCoin grow from here to levels never before seen within any emerging technology in the history of said human beings.
For those who like to say that BitCoin is owned/controlled by the .gov/cartel, it is NOW time to state WHY you think that, but more importantly, HOW such control is/can be exerted. This seems to be nothing but an ad-hominem, lazy, unintelligent attempt to label BitCoin using "boogey man" tactics.
The most suspect issue is how “nice” the government is acting toward Bitcoin. They are viciously brutal to most alternative currencies, so why are they not taking a stand against bitcoin. My thought is they probably know they can control it so they will let capital flow in that direction to divert it from the real threat, gold and silver. They showed interest early on and could have put a few super computers on it or bought it under a dollar a coin and because of the anonymity could own 50, 70 or 90% of the market right now just waiting to crush it. Or they could just make a law that American retailers could not accept it. Finally they may be able to trace it more easily then is known. No matter what, I believe, if they were truly threatened they would have already crushed it. How’s that?
Because they know that their Fiat Ponzi Pyramid is coming to an end , and a replacement system needs to come up in parallel before said system fails.
YOU ARE RIGHT BUT THE REPLACEMENT WON'T BE BITCOIN!!!! The replacement will be much worse then the dollar. At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist I'm going to give my point of view. Here is the chain of events: The government plays a lot of games to crash bitcoin, says it had some good points, but problems, that caused it to fail. The dollar fails, an inevitability by just looking at the total credit market debt to GDP, debt to income, and considering the federal debt. They will find some way to rationalize how the crash was not the fault of the government’s foolish policies and pick a scape goat, speculators, china, capitalism ect…
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=total+credit+market+debt+to+GDP&FORM=HDRSC2#view=detail&id=9B1E209B015E060B0B35B54813749253B41C4C09&selectedIndex=2
The government comes to the rescue with the E dollar, a crypto currency where they have “fixed” the problems with bitcoin, and gave it “legitimacy” by backing it with the US gov. All in all this is just a way to get rid of paper dollars and coin, “the easier to tax you with my dear”, and allows negative interest rates, yeah you pay the bank to keep your money there so they can speculate with it, leverage it to the hilt and all in all keep stealing from you. So just like every “fix/patch” of the past 200 years to the fraudulent fractional reserve system the main beneficiaries will be the banks and the government. I can’t believe with the story below there hasn’t been more on ZH about this. Ya want some examples of those fixes/patches that benefited banks and gov. How about interconnecting banks in the late 19th century, the creation of the fed in 1913, the start of socialism, FDIC insurance and the theft of the peoples gold as a result of a crash, this resulting from a Fed created boom, shutting the gold window (benefited the gov to the detriment of all of our trading partners), and then the Bailouts and pretty much handing money to the banks through ZIRP and QE, while at the same time strengthening socialism and thus government by creating more dependency. Am I crazy? After you read the story below you’ll be on board. THIS WAS ON YAHOO FOR GOD SAKE!
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/theres-electronic-currency-could-save-121228399.html
I can get on board with most of what you say however I would ask the question: In the world of digital currency, why would you need a bank? You don't need to put your digital currency on deposit of a bank for bill paying or for fear of home theft. With this, no brick and mortar banking needed. Loaning of digital currency could be pretty easy. The role of the bank could be, mind you COULD be reduced to next to nothing. Investment banks (Goldman) survives but who else? Perhaps the "financial crisis" was nothing more than the last big bribe to the banking cartel to not fight the coming digital currency invention. No more need for FDIC insurance?
This sounds great but in the end the people will get screwed. I could see a government controlled digital currency as the easiest way for the government to control every dollar a person spends, total control if they so choose electronically denying you the ability to spend on certain things they deem you don't need. It certainly makes it easier for them to collect taxes and know exactly what you buy, when you buy and how much you buy.
What starts out sounding like utopia end up being a prison.
strippers getting bitcoin scan codes tattooed on their asses... lapdances for cash being banned soon... better get your bitcoins now to get your groove on later..
Strippers and lap dances control the future course of currency. Interesting.
Well that devolved more quickly then I would have hoped. Try following and reading the second link.
It's Saturday night and we're on ZH. What did you think would happen? I would rather be getting laid and have a million bitcoins along with a few million US dollars but I'm not and I don't so really what are you expecting?
Let me help get it back on track.
Use your phone to scan her btc wallet code off her ass.
Type in the payment amount on your phone and send.
Her wireless enabled nipple ring buzzes her that payment is recieved.
Enjoy your lap dance.
We already have a government controlled digital currency, it's called the dollar, and smart people don't like it for its many flaws, primarily the fact that it can be fabricated at no cost, and is government controlled. Bitcoin is much more than a currency, it is a ledger that performs all of the services our banking system provides. Those who argue that bitcoin is the governments clever way of forcing us into digital money don't understand the decentralized nature of bitcoin. The fact that there are already many other crypto currencies out there that can be adopted instead of or in addition to bitcoin proves to me that this is not the type of currency a 1984 big brother govt would want. Bitcoin is just one example of this new form of money and payment, this new invention is not going away, unless the Internet itself goes away, and as long as it doesn't go away it will grow in popularity for all of the practical reasons why companies like overstock are flocking to it. I won't promise that bitcoins price will keep going up or even that bitcoin will emerge as a primary world currency, but I can promise that crypto currencies WILL became a major form of money and payment it is just a matter of how fast, and judging by what I see so far, when there is money to be made or saved, the global capacity for change is rapid indeed.
You and I view government vastly different I suppose. I don't think governments intend to suceede control over currencies to a bitcoin or any other digital currency that they don't operate and control. If you think the US dollar is fully digialized then you ain't seen nothing yet. I understand fully the decentralized nature of digital currency and can see tremendous benefits for the masses if allowed to be adopted. One of those benefits would be making most banking obsolete. I don't believe the powers that be are inclined to allow that to happen unless those powers take over the open space.
You made promises and it would be great if you are right but the one thing I can promise is that the US government isn't just going to step aside and lose power to a decentralized digital currency. The US government doesn't like to lessen it's grip on a thing, they generally tend to tighten their grip and expand their control. We can go back and forth all day and it won't matter what either one of us thinks or say, it only matters what the government does.
" We can go back and forth all day and it won't matter what either one of us thinks or say, it only matters what the government does."
From an economic perspective I say: fuck the government and their handlers, up the ass, with a telephone pole and without Vaseline.
Hope that solves the problem of us needing their permission to conduct free trade.
Yep my thoughts exactly. They are not going to hand over control of money creation to Bitcoin, and make early adopters rich and powerful, at least not easily. It appears as if they are treating bitcoin with kid gloves right now, and my question is why. If they officially designated it as a currency it would break legal tender laws, but they are calling it a “money service” like Western Union. Why are they being so nice, I believe it’s simply because they already know they can control it.
Take a look at this story to explain my reasoning above.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/theres-electronic-currency-could-save-121228399.html
I think another thing we have to be careful of is bias because of exposure and non exposure. The ones with exposure to bitcoin are the ardent supporters, the ones without are all against. I think we should all be careful with these bias, myself included as one without exposure.
To understand what will be the currency in the future and on the what exactly it will be based, need to listen to what say in Beijing, not Washington.
Thanks for the link bwh, I appreciate it. First I had read about it.
Sorry to piss on your bonfire , but the word is infrastructure baby. How do you get the infrastructure in place ? By allowing the Private Sector to implement it , that's how. The other Crypto's are great , maybe there will be better ones in the future , just like there are better version's of TCP/IP , problem is that once the network effect has taken hold of any system it's then virtually impossible to re-wire it for something else without starting all over again from scratch. It is far too late for that. And besides all of these other Cryptos are absolutely crap compared to Bitcoin. The best example is that Litecoin requires 10,000 times more electricity to produce the same hash rate as Bitcoin. Once these systems scale up into the hundreds of thousands of transactions per minute Litecoin will require a power station on every street corner to match Bitcoins transactional speed. The market will select the most efficient processor and Bitcoin is leaps and bounds ahead of anything else out there.
Take a look at the story on the E dollar, they will use the current banking system infrastructure for the E dollar. At least that's the plan. Bitcoin no matter the origins is a distraction giving more legitimacy to the E dollar which they would love to implement. And don't give me the dollar is an "e-dollar", it is not as described in the story above, why, well because the current dollars can be exchanged for cash. That allows bank runs, but more importantly prevents negative interest rates. The E dollar would allow for negative interest rates.
I'm not saying that the E-Dollar is an inevitability but it has a better chance then Bitcoin. The only true rival to government currencies is gold and silver, unfortunatly Bitcoin is providing a relief valve to the rejection of the governmental monetary system. It is unfortunate because I think those with exposure are underestimating its vunrabilities and it is preventing the real way of rebeling by purchasing gold and silver. I know I know I just don't get it, well we'll see. If Bitcoin has the ability to bring down the current monetary system I'm all for it, but I have my doubts.
While I agree with some of your points there is one thing that you may be missing: Bitcoin is a truly globalised currency for a globalised world. Try using US-Gov sanctioned e-dollars for international trade , good luck with getting countries on board and to trust a 'new' version of the dollar once the old dollar has failed I think people already want a completely new system and not a re-hash of an old failed system , Bitcoin wil soon be running fully in parallel to the worlds old money system , the transition to the new system will become smoother and smoother as time moves on.
You may be right, and bring up some good points. I would say that I think the US government will give up some of our international trade clout to be able to keep control of our money. We’ll see maybe you will be right, all we can do it follow our own logic and see who ends up on top. I hope your right and people foreign and domestic reject the current and any further system the government attempts to impose. I hope the free market picks the medium of exchange. For some reason though, they are currently allowing Bitcoin to be used, where every other competing currency including gold silver, and gold and silver backed E Currencies have been crushed. My question is why, and I am very suspect. All I want is an even playing field. Good luck.
To be honest with you I think the reason the other competetive currencies have been stamped out is because they are all wide open to fraudulent abuse , especially gold & silver where a countries Central Bank and Private Banks can easily manipulate and lie about how much gold they have in reserve , it would take forever to audit these banks and there would be nothing stopping them from shifting gold from one bank to another before and after the auditors make their inspections. It appears that due to its unbreakable cryptographic nature Bitcoin could be the one that they can finally trust and therefore would be pointless to put up a fight. Soon most people will realise that we need a completely new financial system , when they do there will already be something available for them to step into.
The market will choose the currency in which it will be possible to buy goods.
That is , the market will choose the currency, what will be agree to accept as payment China side.
At the moment - this currency is called "Gold" .
I'm tired of reading all this nonsense of " market experts " who do not see anything other than blank blah blah blah along with the words " p2p " and " crypto" .
You do not know, that the relationship between China and the United States, have continuous growing trade deficit?
You do not know or not understand, the meaning of the last statement of the Chinese authorities?
Beijing recently announced that the People's Bank of China, stops further buildup of assets denominated in U.S. dollars.
Question: What does this mean?
Answer: In fact, China has refused to sell their products in exchange for U.S. dollars.
Strange coincidence: U.S. Senate, previously has actively blocked Bitcoin. But after the announcement from China, the U.S. Senate suddenly began to actively support and promote Bitcoin!
Question: Why?
Answer: Because the U.S. now do not know, in what currency, they must to buy goods from China.
But China has actually rejected the U.S. proposal on the exchange of goods to Bitcoin.
China does not need any shit - coins.
China needs gold. Checkmate. Game over.
Only one country on the planet, huh? A few billion with mobile internet but less than a billion with access to financial services.
Besides, TPTB could be literally telling you they will print until nobody pays attention to the dollar anymore.
My theory is that if government could easily stamp out btc they would have already. They are probably playing some kind of if you can't beat them then join them game via the IRS. BTC, like cash money fiat, plays in two economies, free underground and statist slave. By blocking BTC in the statist economy government might accelerate the growth of the free underground economy to suck energy away from the statist one. The Government and their handlers are feeling their way around to find a solution to this disruptive form of money, if they fail then the balance of power could shift from the slave system to the free system. By some accounts 60% of Caribbean and South American economies are already underground, America is already a banana republic so perhaps the time is right for her too. Once everybody becomes accustomed to thinking off the radar the structure of supply chains change dramatically. I don't know if there are fatal flaws in BTC, and no one here or anywhere else has convinced me that there are. I support btc because I want it to work so it can help push back the slavers. BTC haters think btc is a trap, not imposiible, time will tell, until then we push forward. If it is a trap then fix the concept and push forward again, either that or just lie there and invite the slavers to rape you in perpetuity.
They would not stamp it out now if they think they can control it and use it to their advantage.
viciously brutal to most alternative currencies, so why are they not taking a stand against bitcoin.
maybe because they're not viciously brutal to most alternative currencies (e.g. Ithaca Hours, Berkshares), just those that can escape the power of the fiat.
Nice?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-05-15/us-government-begins-bitcoin-cr...
Never mind what the Chinese have been doing.
But I guess when you own gold and silver, it is natural to think that every single thing in the universe is conspiring against you. You would do better to employ your reason in your analysis rather than blind speculation, though. Bitcoin is a dollar replacement, not a gold replacement. Bitcoin makes Freegold not only possible, but perhaps even inevitable. You save in PMs and transact in BTC.
You never really wanted to transact in specie, did you? Be honest. Especially now that all the silver is gone, so you have to use COPPER as change for gold. What a pain in the ass.
And I know with 10000% certainty that you didn't want to trust a BANK with your PMs.
Well there goes the anonymity of your stash of bitcoins.
Overstock and now the Automated Clearing House (Coinbase/Dwolla/etc) now have a "name" and address attached to a BTC transaction.
I honestly don't see how anyone is going to realize any real profits in BTC without rolling out the red carpet for the IRS.
Unless of course you funnel the proceeds through an offshore trust.
Bet you can't ID any of those addresses on that top 500 BTC rich list site!
That top 500 list is a serious amount of dough that's not getting taxed.
Yup. Better to use physical gold and silver coins to shop online. Nailed it dude.
Hmmm .... or you could just follow the 'best practice' guidlines for BitCoin and never re-use an address. Just keep moving your BTC assets to multiple new addresses in your wallet(s).
That immediately breaks the easy relationship between a BitCoin address and your real world identity.
Run the assets though a tumbler to even further de-link your ID from your assets. Sure, your purchases at Overstock are connected to your ID ... but very little of your asset profile becomes visible from a single merchant.
Of much more interest in most countries (though not Australia - zero inheritance tax there), transfering BTC from your estate to your children remains hidden and out of the reach of the global inheritance tax rip-off.
That is a powerful use case for treating BitCoin as a store of value ... like gold.
Patrick M. Byrne, seek the best law firm on call. Great job, good luck. They will appear out of nowhere and shut down your business. Just be careful. The media will use you and others as a warning to conduct business outside the Federal Reserve debt note policy.
ZH gold bugs - End the Fed, as long as it is replaced with gold or silver. If anything else is the alternative do not try because we must fear the government not liking it and trying to stop us. This seems to be some odd morphing of libertarianism and statism. What is this called, a libertarian statist?
Everyone seems to assume that bitcoin/digital currency spells doom for gold and silver. With every government allegedly owning billons/trillions worth of gold, do we think that just gets written off as junk and govts just eat it? What do we make of the Chinese and their alleged gold buying spree over the last decade? Are we to assume they won't matter and they wil just shrug their shoulders and say "Oh darn it what bad luck we had buying all of this gold" and go on about their business as if nothing happened?
I don't write off digital currency because I think that it is the evolution of money, technology and government but I wouldn't just assume gold and silver become useless trinkets of an era gone by. That is at best wishful thinking and certainly naive.
Really, "everyone" doesn't assume that. Most coiners will tell you that (B)(b)itcoin will help FREE gold and silver.
...and sooner rather than later, I suspect...
I would like to borrow 100 Bitcoin.
I am assuming there will be no interest charged, but if there were, would the lending terms account for the time it would take to "mine" Bitcoin?
If not, where would the new Bitcoin come from?
Or is there no lending/interest under a Bitcoin system?
Interesting question.
Also, the Interest repayments would have to be high enough to reflect the deflationary value increase of the bitcoin that was loaned out. It looks like loaning out BTC would be an impossible task , the value borrowed would be much less than the value that would have to be paid back.
You and the person lending the coins come to an agreement. What do I care what that agreement is? Plot twist: replace "Bitcoin" in your questions with "gold coin"
Lending comes from a bank ... just as in the old world ....
Try this: https://www.coinlenders.com/
and for Bitcoin fractional reserve lending ...https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fractional_Reserve_Banking_and_Bitcoin
I wish people would read all the basic Bitcoin information on the project Wiki ... all these issues were covered long ago. !!!
"I wish people would read all the basic Bitcoin information on the project Wiki ... all these issues were covered long ago. !!!"
If they did that, they would have nothing to FUD about.
Anti-BTC drool on Zero Hedge, one of the best contrarian indicators there is.
At least it used to be funny, now it's just repetitively boring and quite pathetic actually... but don't stop!
just driveby this ghetto and kick the idiots and leave.. only thing left to do
There are still many great commenters but this place is nothing like what I joined a few years ago. I submit there are actually few idiots on ZH but the mindset has become it's own self-reinforcing echo chamber-induced programming, totally inflexible and near blinded by it's own confirmation biases to a disproportionate extent. There are quite a few people here I have respect for, the kind of people I'd like to meet. I love the news and the Tylers do us all a service. Down vote me all you want, it is all some of you guys have in terms of a rebuttal (aside from the over-used, fallacious rhetoric) thus far in the history of us and Bitcoin... BTChes.
TLDR: I'm smart because the rest of you are dumb!
(Could sum up 90% of all forum posts in the history of the internet)
+2 sides of every BTC.
would add that the marks of resilience of any system are (a) the ability to clearly identify the weaknesses of the system and develop solutions to the problem through collective intelligence and (b) the ability to fend off parasites & predators that abuse the system's weaknesses to reward themselves at the expense of the system's health & survival.
if this is correct, then it would seem that blind arrogance is as, if not more, damaging to resilience as the predators & parasites themselves.
My girl and I already worked it out. We live downtown in a prominent Massachusetts city. We need our honey farms/gas station, the two restaurants we prefer, and we can do almost all of our variable spending activity with Bitcoin once Target follows Overstock.
But, but, but all the smart guys at ZH said Bitcoin would go to zero.
Nieman Marcus just got hacked, Target just got hacked, but bit coin is safe. I think I will keep my. little bag of silver and gold
Goodbye super reliable E-gold, hello super reliable Bitcoin!
I wonder if the holder of the largest Bitcoin wallet on the planet (the FBI) will be shopping at Overstock.
What would prevent the US government from digitalizing the US dollar should they chose to do so after bitcoin gives it the road map in how to execute? Wouldn't that be the biggest risk to bitcoin?
Most dollars are already digital. But they are centralized while Bitcoin is decentralized. Why would the Gov't give up their centralized powers over the dollar to a decentralized currency?
I am not one to judge or act based on emotion and instinct vs. logic and fact, but to the extent that I know anything about bitcoin, EVERYTHING in my gut tells me to stay away from bitcoin. So I will.
>Says he doesn't judge or act based on emotion.
>Goes on to do just that, and viciously attack everyone who disagrees and then lie about his motives
Scumbag akak.
Poignant.
Sweet
I don't understand why bitcoin believers are so impatient and emotional. Not sure why detractors are so negative and emotional. But I never understood why gold bugs and gold bashers are so emotional either. If your right, you win. If your wrong, you lose. It really doesn't matter what the other person thinks one way or the other. I like asking questions and playing devil's advocate. If you don't play the opposite side of your thesis then you are only doing half of your homework and are apt to making many mistakes and being shocked and caught offguard more often than not. I don't envy blind allegiance to a stock or an asset or in this case a currency.
I am old enough to remember how many people swore the superiority of Betamax over VHS. They were right all the way, of course, until they were wrong for reasons they still can't fathom.
The reason was porn. Easy to fathom.
Can only imagine the effects of 3D porn. Hologram , digitalized pussy that never says no and will make a sandwhich afterwards. Now that's something that I could become first mover of adoption over and can't find a single flaw unless somehow that would be considered cheating.
It really doesn't matter what the other person thinks one way or the other.
perhaps it matters only when the value of said money is solely based on faith of a critical mass of participants. and when faith of a critical mass is solely based on emotion and an utter lack of critical reasoning, you get a War of the Words.
ok so $130k of bitcoins was exchanged for goods from Overstock.com.
For arguments sake lets say that was $1000/ bitcoin or 130 bitcoins were transacted.
Overstock.com now has 130 bitcoins.
What does overstock.com do with the bitcoins?
In NJ these online sites have to collect sales tax. Does that mean Overstock.com now has to go to a broker to convert the BC's to a fiat based bank account to cut a check to the state govt for sales tax?
Overstock.com cant pay their employees in BCs or their rent, I guess their web hosting services?
It seems like its a bad deal for overstock.com, at least right now.
It seems like the most useful features of bitcoin would be to avoid taxation / tracking of purchases or as an indiret means to move fiat over borders, ie you convert cash to bitcoins, leave country a, go to country b with a bitcoin-fiat exchanger to cash out.
Isn't the bitcoin-fiat exchanger the weak link in the chain?
There is a little too much emotion in this debate for me.
Isn't the bitcoin-fiat exchanger the weak link in the chain?
been musing on the exact question. methinks it is. only way to get around it seems is to eliminate fiat from the equation entirely. only way to do that is have both sides of the transaction accumulate their currency units through either mining or "gifting".
I am a software engineer and I will not touch BTC with a 20foot pole
I am a Central Banker and I Salute You!
Changing your mind in 3..2..1..
$130,000 of sheets and bath towels?
Don't bitcoin holders believe in washing machines?
I produce food and I will not touch BTC with a twenty foot pole.
Stack On
On behalf of Citibank and BofA, thank you, comrade.
If you can pay for hookers and blow with BTC who gives a fuck ?
And besides - it's virtual - so you cannot touch it anyway
"Whichever country you choose could just as easily outlaw bitcoin transactions as gold ownership."
Good luck with that, country x. Even shaping tcp/ip traffic to attempt to block btc transactions won't block them forever. It's an order of magnitude easier for a nation to block trading $1M in gold than $1M in btc. Not like anyone actually uses metal for a currency today anyways, so that statement is pretty inconsequential.
The only way a country could stop the BTC protocol is to completely isolate all of it's internet gateway connections to the rest of the world. Any country which did that would be immediately throwing itself back into the stone age , forcing the re-connection of the internet and automatic re-synchronisation of the blockchain. If it took place for long enough people would start smuggling USB keys containing the latest blockchain and people would start synchronising the internal network using satellite phones , there are many, many ways a shutdown could be circumvented.
The best thing government enforcer types like about bitcoins being used to buy stuff is that they get an up to date list of where folks are that have off the grid assets. Judges will be busy issuing paper
The best thing government enforcer types like about bitcoins being used to buy stuff is that they get an up to date list of where folks are that have off the grid assets. Judges will be busy issuing paper
The best thing government enforcer types like about bitcoins being used to buy stuff is that they get an up to date list of where folks are that have off the grid assets. Judges will be busy issuing paper
Jeez. Forget the Bitcoin good/bad argument. Why the fuck is anyone buying this hugely overpriced shit from Overstock. Pile it high, sell it high to gullible morons.
I had to check what it was. Bollocks you can get at a Target or Walmart for a fraction of the cost.
Wake the fuck up. Even if you've bought at Overpriced in Bitcoin, you've had your pants down whilst doing it.
Douchebag America. But sadly not alone.
So they earned a whooping 2000$! hahahaha
Since their margins are only 2%.
Don't forget that all of these companies that accept bitcoin convert them into dollars as soon as they get them. That transaction is over 2%, thus they lost money. It was still worth it for the publicity but a loss is a loss.
2% might be the comany's net margin, but what matters is the contribution margin on these new sales and customers, and even more so, what their lifetime value is.
If there ends up only 2 people in the world using Bitcoin, they can still do transactions with each other. So have faith in your fellow man, the big boys can't break bitcoin, they can only steal it and try and counterfeit it. And they are definitely going to try and tax it., by fair means or foul. But that means they have to acknowledge it as a currency ..........
'....It’s the most bullish thing I can imagine."
Its bullish allright - bullish for tyranny. TPTB will allow it to move forward due in large measure to the fact its a digital currency. Very easy to track once it becomes mainstream. What better way for the masses to accept a cashless society than having them embrace it willingly via the use of such mediums of exchange like bitcoin. Just as use/acceptance of the internet has led to the surveillance state - the use/acceptance of a digital currency will lead to a cashless society. Welcome to the Brave New World comrades.