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The Difference Between Gold And Bitcoin, As Explained By Elliott's Paul Singer
Some perspective on the two "alternative currencies" - bullion and bitcoin -from the man who has run a hedge fund for 37 years and currently manages $23.3 billion, Elliott's Paul Singer.
Bitcoin
After 37 years in the investment-management business, we are not easily shocked. However, two things about bitcoin have shocked us recently. One is that bitcoin and some of its fellow alternative currencies are finding such favor among investors while gold (the only real alternative currency) is languishing. The second is that the most heated investment-related conversation we have had in many years was with a young person who, when told of our mild dubiousness toward bitcoin, basically lost it and started yelling in its defense. Bitcoin comes with passion and belief – at least at the moment.
There is no more reason to believe that bitcoin, a computer-generated, algorithm-driven currency of supposed limited supply, will stand the test of time than that governments will protect the value of government-created fiat money. One difference: Bitcoin is newer and we always look at babies with hope.
If you are looking for an alternative currency, look into gold. It has stood the test of thousands of years as a medium of exchange and a store of value. Better yet, it is not just a computer entry out in the ether somewhere, and it was last seen available at a good price.
Bitcoin and its relatives speak to understandable impulses (against big government, in favor of freedom and modernity), but we do not see this particular experiment lasting. At least you have to work really hard to dig gold out of the ground.
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But splits don't. The total number of BTC is capped. If anything, it's deflationary, not inflationary. If you're going to criticize it, then please at least try to find something real to critique. The "problem" you're claiming exists - doesn't.
If you divide a candy bar into a million pieces, those pieces still just add up to... one candy bar.
Here is this and can not understand all the believers in Bitcoin! You can not understand that arithmetic - is one thing. Economy - is another. And the set of arithmetic economies - this is the third.
You may not realize that the very nature of Bitcoin is inflationary.
Example:
- Inflation inherently increases the amount of currency in circulation and makes the currency more cheaper against goods.
- The monetary reform that removes the extra zeros of paper currency (reduces the number of fractional parts of the money) makes currency more expensive against goods.
Yes, the currency must be divisible. But the currency should not be divisible to infinity.
----------
Well, I will tell you more easier. Take any number (eg 21 million Bitcoin) and divide it by infinity. The answer is zero. QED.
No mere mortal has divided a bitcoin by infinity. Your use case is bunk.
Anyways, following your "logic" to its conclusion, Bitcoin will have a value of 0 measured in any other currency. Hold back on your QED until some observational evidence presents itself.
Take one gold bar, divide it by infinity, etc., etc. You keep repeating the same error, silvermail. Bitcoin isn't infinitely divisible, nor is anything else.
-1
For...
Bitcoin is a concensus driven ledger... making the need to trust people obsolete. -- margaris
Except, of course, the man that writes the software. And runs the network. And builds the hardware. And... well you get the idea.
"The TBTF already have strong positions in bitcoin, litecoin etc.,"
"...but they don't control them yet."
With all due respect I'd like to see evidence of either. I'd be very please to know that. We all would be (well, at least those who would like to look for leading indicators of a market's movement).
What we do know is the number of bitcoindays that remain undestroyed (i.e. how long have you held your Btc?), and that number absolutely dwarfs the number of Btc days destroyed (i.e. how long did you hold it before it changed hands?).
Why are they holding so many for so long, and who are "they"? Waiting for better exchange rates? Don't want to flood the market? Other?
Any payment system has the legal owner with the name and ID number. Legal owners have their legal rights. Bitcoin system do not have legal owners? We must be very naive to believe it.
Bitcoin is a global decentralized ownership ledger. Possession of private keys to bitcoin addresses prove ownership.
In the Bitcoin system, some group of people have the ability to send for all users, shared centralized messages and alerts.
At the same time, any of the rank Bitcoin users, has not this possibility.
And knowing this, you continue to assert that the Bitcoin system is truly "decentralized"?
lol wut? Bitcoin is fucked because a small group of people are able to send an alert message over the network but everybody else doesn't have the capability to spam the network? Bitcoin is not intended to be a messaging system and its main decentralized money transfer functions are unaffected. Keep digging.
An unkown number of of private keys to Bitcoins have been lost or abandoned, especially from the earliest experimental days when anybody could mine bitcoins on a personal computer.
Others are just hoarding for the long term.
Where were all the diehard bitcoin supporters when the exhange rate was several dollars? Why didn't they see this "successful" future of bitcoin several years ago? If you believed the digital currency was the wave of the future back then, you should be a millionaire with your thousands of bitcoins.
The exuberant market value of bitcoin brought many get-rich-quick traders on board who justify their lottery ticket as something more than that.
Some of us did. And some of us tried for quite a while to get Tyler interested. And some if us burned a few calories answering good questions from ZH users, as well as posts from Xenofrog, when BTC was still under USD 100.
Exactly.
Also, I can turn this around. Where are all the silver pumpers now when silver price is so low???
Ah I see, now the price is too low, and they don't want to sell to anyone. I see.
Where are all the silver pumpers now when silver price is so low???
Max "$500 silver" Keiser is now pumping $1 million bitcoin.
Max is one of a kind. Most silver pumpers hate bitcoins.
MaxCoin Pre-Launch Announcement
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=438150.0
If you're gonna obsess over your bitcoin, lust over it quietly. We're tired of hearing the inane blithering of zealots.
I have been on zerohedge for more than 3 years, and I have seen so much exaggerated silver and gold love, it was heartwarming but also often ridiculous.
So why is it a problem if a new player enters the market?
Is this like bitcoin is the new fresh prostitute on the line and all the old washed-out prostitutes feel threatened?
Well, you old bitches, maybe your time has come and gone. It's bitcoins time now. HAHAHA!!! *SNAP*
(PS I am a gold silver bug too, but have to behave this way because bitcoin is treated unfairly by the zerohedge community. I always side with the promising new underdog who has an ace in the hole, but I still respect the older whores for "milf" reasons.)
@papasmurf
But not so tired that you can't resist commenting.
LOL, over and over, it just never stops. You were saying?
I don't hate bitcoin. But it's a potential surveillance technology with enormous implications. I've got some serious questions about it, but all I see around here are snake oil salesmen and faith healers.
I don't hate it but as a currency it is too shit full of creepy speculators to use it. If I go to checkout anywhere online that uses bitcoin they tend to give the disclaimer that it could fluctuate greatly between the time I click 'confirm purchase' and the time the purchase takes place.
Get rid of the speculators and the creepy assed people like foneystar who pushes it daily and maybe I'd consider using it.
A pain to carry around? get yourself two fifty peso Mexican gold pieces, put one on the tip of each forefinger and ring the edges together like little cymbals. The most beautiful pure ringing sound known. can't be copied. carry 'em around for while, and take em' out of your pocket and look at them and think about what you're looking at. Admidttedly it helps if you have some knowledge of human history; failing that, and all other knowledge I suppose a person might be mis-lead into thinking that "way cool" was good enough; whatever that even means.
Perhaps you have a good recommendation on how to pay someone in the Ukraine for their programming services in Gold without any overhead?
Without overhead? Give me a break. Your transaction comes with a fee from the net who validate that your Btc is ok for the UKR guy to accept.
Ok he then accepts it, and you wait and wait and wait for your programming to arrive. Keep waiting. Absent a real impetus for the 2nd half of your P2P to send you something, you can go on waiting. Even if you have an authority to which you can appeal, then there's still this: "Vie? Who's Vie? S/he didn't send me a damn thing".
You can play the same game: "Tatiana? Who? She never sent me any programming."
"Wait! I have a receipt! Uh huh. Well, ok it says that someone sent 2.467 Btc to someone." Taking that approach I might as well claim to have sent 53.956 Btc today: 1HkT7FEveszpRcpjwCBLvDRymXExxRc2sM
Fine, you and Tatty are goods friends and don't need 3rd parties like Btc or an escrow service. How much commerce is done by trusted friends? Trust grows but not on these terms unless face to face.
Sounds like you're reaching quite a bit.
The overhead with BTC is a nominal 0.001BTC, and voluntary, depending on how important it is the reciever gets it sooner rather than later. Compared with a 3-4% credit card payment, or money transfer. Cost/Benefit is pretty clear imho. (That's not even considering the even greater ramifications of continuing to let the banks insert themselves in all our transactions and run/ruin our lives.)
If I can pay a programmer in the Ukraine 1/10th of what I pay someone "face-to-face", I'm probably going to be willing to risk a few failures on initial small projects to find the right people. People "face-to-face" aren't immune from fraud either, it's the risk of doing business. It's just a much smaller risk if it's 1/10th the cost. I can afford to fail on trying 9 more people.
Be my guest if you want to stay in the dark ages. Not saying BTC is any panacea, but it's fucking worth giving it a chance.
If you claim to own or to have sent coins from an address, your private key to that address can sign a text message proving you are in control of it.
I am in a position where I can refuse work that pays in fiat, I only accept bitcoin or gold for my time. Living in Asia but most of my employers are in Europe or North America. Needless to say most of my payments are received in BTC. Fortunately I am able to convert BTC to gold directly without having to touch fiat on my end of the trade.
SAT 800,
I have found that through my brief tenure at ZH that there are a lot of really smart cookies that post here. As well, there are others who would best be served by playing Celebrity Jeopardy.
Learning and laughing...not so bad.
I'll buy all your gold and you can buy bitcoin. Then everybody's happy!
DO U EVEN LIFT BRO?
Not necessarily, try this on for size
http://www.combibar.com/
Fits in your wallet like a credit card, easily divisible into 1 gram increments..
Bitcoin = Tulip Mania 2014!
Zerohedge = Moron Magnet for Simpletons 2014!
Don't junk him for admitting he is a magnetised simpleton. It would explain his infatuation with a fledgling currency which has no intrinsic value
At least fonestar knows what "intrinsic value" means.... (ie, nothing).
Please don't speak of yourself in the third person. That's just weird.
My sons are looking into bitcoin. They have some interesting insights, I let them do what they want without saying much. It's how they earn aout life. Maybe they are right, maybe not.
It's your money. I bought another 12 gauge with ammo, and 1/2 ounce of gold last week. Good luck to you.
So, what you are saying is you are a proud moron?
Seems to have attracted you.
Fuck you troll
Fonestar, If Zerohedge is a Moron Magnet as you say then that explains why you have so many posts every day.
let's see, who will i listen to? an entity managing over 23 billion in assets or some fucking random comments section troll? hmmmmmm.....
fonestar would listen to the troll. Not some has-been, legacy Wall Streeter.
.
Jim Sinlair gold guru for 33 years says Gold will hit $5000 by 2013.
fonstar long btc Most here long gold.
They are markets. winners are grinners losers can go fuck themselves
fonestar grins
Like lotto, gotta play to win!
the only way to win at lotto is to never play lotto
the only way to repeatedly win at lotto is to never play lotto.
Fixed it for you .....
(it is possible to have an occasional win at lotto, but losses usually outweigh wins)
"Bitcoin = Tulip Mania 2014!"
Woohooooo! Can't wait for the Springtime!
Sigh, nothing changes. CNBC deja vu segment on Bitcoin April 1st of last year:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLesuk1uFIo
The central planners only want a cashless society where they control the cash. Nobody controls Bitcoin, your argument is stupid.
I don't know what the future is for bitcoin. But I do know these things:
1) I do not manage $23 Billion
2) I don't trust something is real unless its in my control
3) Never trust someone that manages $23 Billion
I trust in math and cryptography.
Vires in Numeris!
Guess who's the top dog on all things cryptographic.
Satoshi + fonestar
"satoshi + Fonestar".... play butt darts?
He kinda backed into that one.
As intended
Tell me how's the food around the Ft. Meade area foneystar?
Yes fonestar you trust but, unfortunately, you cannot verify.
Hmm, stating thesis as fact: Nobody controls Bitcoin
stating thesis as fact: Nobody controls Bitcoin
Please, disprove the hypothesis. With facts, that is.
The burden of proof is on those who are doing the selling. Here, that's the bitcoin proponents.
Correct.
Plus CH1, I have rebuked folks a few times and they chose to not respond anymore:
Explain to us, for starters, how a medium of exchange can be tracked by anyone and at the same time cannot be controlled by a central authority.
As long as your body and physical needs cannot be digitized and sent over the internet -encrypted if necessary-, your local authority can hinder you very effectively to use bitcoins as a medium of exchange for local transactions.
So the "no control" argument is a fallacy.
"your local authority can hinder you very effectively to use bitcoins as a medium of exchange for local transactions."
How so exactly? I mean they could try but it seems like it would be infinitely less effective than a war on drugs type scenario.
In this case the shortest answer is a counter-question:
So do you declare you can -nowadays and in the future- cover all your needs and wants on black markets if necessary, without ever getting caught?
Because that's what you're effectively proposing here.
And the infinitely less effective might be a tiny bit exaggerated - would you describe the IRS as infinitely ineffective?
Scientific method - burden of proof is on both sides of the argument ...
- if you are against the theory, you need to provide evidence of the failure cases of the theory.
- if you are pro the theory, you should provide evidence of the areas where the theory matches the observed behaviour, and preferably make testable predictions based on the theory, then do those test.
Just saying - both pro and anti BTC suggestions could work to the scientific method. Make some predictions, invent test cases.... do tests, publish results.
if said society was cashless, doesnt logic dictate there would be no 'cash' for 'they' to control?
Bitcoin is digital cash, currency, virtual commodity, protocol and pure awesomeness.
Is your keyboard sticky yet?
Funny, you really believe this is completely out of their reach?
Can you prove that?
Because just calling something stupid is not a convincing or logical arguement.
No, that cannot be proven. My research leads me to believe that it is far enough out of their reach for me to particpate with some of my daily spending funds and even with a small part of my high-risk investment portfolio. What is known is that banks, credit cards, PayPal, et al are 100% within their reach.
With all due respect (not much really), what you posted is patently false and you know it.
The majority of Btc holders by design own it.
They can trash it tomorrow if they choose to, and they can add the much awaited and inevitable "patch" to overcome the scalability issue whenever and however they please. And there's not a damn thing that you and your 2 Btc can do about it because it's a 1 Btc =1 vote world.
Oy the coincidence that the majority are still concentrated in a few hands.
The "patch" might even be such that it screws you before someone outside the inner sanctum finds the flaw. How long did it take to find the backdoor (potential or actually-used) in each of SHA-256's predecessors? How long would it take to find this (theoretical) one?
"1 Btc =1 vote world"
Bitcoin is not a Proof-of-Stake crypto-currency, although some of that variety exist.
Bitcoin is Proof-of-work. The miners decide what goes into the ledger if their data checks out with a majority of the rest of the network. Miners are not required to own any BTC, but they are required to crunch the numbers to solve a block, aka Proof-of-work.
Possible attacks to predecessor SHA-1 have been identified but a successful hack has not yet been shown to have occurred. The best attack scenario against SHA-1 still takes an estimated 2^35 computations. An attack was mounted using the BOINC distributed network in 2007 but was abandoned in 2009 due to a lack of progress. SHA-1 is still widely used, being part of many SSL certificates until 2017.
None of this implies that SHA-256 is completely unbreakable. It is left up to each individual to asses the risks involved and see if there is any room in their portfolio for it.
i feel for you guys. i know it's tough to get a job these days, other than flipping burgers.
but geez, you seem like a bright kid. get out of the basement and i'm sure you could find a real job.
it's not that bad. sure, it sucks, but, it's sort of like, you know man, 'reality'.
Check it out, I figured out a way to actually eat a bitcoin O.o. Have to make sure you are properly grounded but it tastes kinda like that fizz candy stuff of yesteryear.
Were you purposefully attempting to sound like an old fart smacktalking back during the birth of the internet?
i am an old fart. i don't have to try. and i made it to that point. saw a lot of people do a lot of stupid shit that they thought was
a lot of fun - and they ain't here no mo.
Also a potential attack vector does not automatically equal a backdoor. If I wrecking ball into the side of your house and rob you would you try and claim that the constructors of your home somehow left a backdoor security flaw in on purpose?
Government can confiscate Physical. They can't confiscate Digital, although they can burn the Exchange / Vendors or go Full-Stuxnet.
Unless Bitcoin is a US creation, kind of a backdoor way to take down their currency without pissing off the neighbours. Whatever.
Eventually, the exchanges themselves will become virtualized and distributed. I've been watching this show for awhile now and the hackers always win and the .gov always loses.
Charlie Shrem,, #Winning?
fonestar always wins.
right up until he doesn't.
Say, do you suppose .gov has any hackers working for them?
...And also collects the larger amounts of red/arrows down in the borad history
have you ever heard the phrase, "past performance is not a guarantee of future results" ? We don't know how seriously irritated the central authorities are yet; or what mechanisms they may bring into play, if they decide they're tired of this; but if you remember the Wehrmacht was looking pretty good there for a while too; until some big power centers got tired of their shit and crushed them like an old tin can.
To be fair the US government has confiscated gold in the past as well. Who can forget Executive Order 6102?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
Are there collectable bitcons that would be excluded?
Maybe you can get proof and reverse proof bitcoins.
I can't afford proof bitcons, but I understand there is a shitload of 'uncirculated' bitcons held by a select few.
Bitcoin is create from ether like Central Bank Note.
Where is BitCoin derive initial value?
Federal Reserve Note is at least back by "Faith and Trust" of USSA government (diminishing prospect). Boris is not lover of $USD, but at least is recognize as official currency for trade. Boris can buy and sell $USD in Russian, in Chinese, in South America. Other country like Cambodia is exchange without conversion!
Scarcity? How is scarce? Exact parallel crypto currency is can be create. 100 alternative crypto currency is can be create. So how is scarce?
Backing authority? Maybe bank is evil spawn of Satan, but at least is building of massive pillar and marble facade. Bankster is crook, but even crook is reputation to protect. Federal Reserve Note is "Legally tender" - who is final arbiter of BitCoin dispute?
Is Bitcoin trade medium by consensus? Even down and out casino or vendor of overstock goods is first require conversion and is alway determine value against $USD, so where is market consensus? Where is stability? When vendor is publish stable price in BitCoin, please wake Boris.
Meantime, Boris is long gold, silver and especial copper.
Sad to see funny guy worship by altar to Baphomet.
Baphomet is pure fictional creation of Eliphas Levi in 1856. Understand operation of machinery is not worshiping of machine.
You are one interesting individual. It is, to say the least, odd, to come across a complete stranger who is oviously versed in many of the same wide ranging esoteric subjects that you are. If nothing it at least shows that although wierd, I'm not alone.
dear mr. dirt lump,
agreed. can you explain to the kids then about the philosopher's stone? history repeats it's self, except for the fact that this
time we are much smarter, and this time it's different.
bitcoin boyz - try this. 'the alchemist' by ben jonson. nothing has changed. nothing is different. except - you guys want to believe.
Boris is not strange. You are know Boris.
Ooops
Was that a virtual touche?
With such convincing and detailed argument and rebuttal from the majority of Btc pumpers....I'm all in! I'll celebrate my conversion by rolling a big fatty using my Edsel stock certificates.
Boris, even though your English is more broken than a central banker, your point comes through with crystal clarity!
Write somemore about Copper; as a futures trader I always like to hear peoples ideas. What are you doing with copper? and what is your expectation for it?
Bitcoin is at least backed by "Faith and Trust" of fonestar
/sarc
Its funny how he is being blamed for Argentina's woes.
Gold owners in Argentina are doing alright I guess ?
The Bitcoin Banditos can fill their boots, but again between the lack of barriers to entry for new ones, and potential capital gains witch hunts by the feds - I'll steer clear.
I was pleased to see in the large list of current cryptocoins that my 2 brainchildren GUNTcoin and GONCHcoin are as yet not on the market.
bitcoin is not at all like gold, it has no substance. bitcoin is much more like fiat currency: its value lay in the faith of its holders. In God we trust; in Satoshi we trust, either way the con is in getting others to give you substance for trust, and we can all see plainly where this has gotten us so far.
bitcoin, brought to you by the caring minds of the NSA. lean forward.
See note above on obsession.
lean forwards a little more and you'll be bending over.
where's Fonestar?
Man, when he gets home from his paper route is he going to be pissed.
So that's what he meant when he said that Bitcoin would cause a rout in paper currencies. He's like the Bitcoin Kaiser Soze.
Everything needs a pimp these days. Kinda like the raw edge of Soze.
fonestar's PAL is upwardly mobile young professional.
Only paper route: pay cheque >> legacy bank >> btc-e.com
He's in Philadelphia today protesting against TPTB in his own unique way. In fact, here's some footage.
http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2014/01/28/Video-Man-Crashes-Car-Into...
where's Fonestar?
fonestar is here and even has his own index now:
http://www.thebitcoinchannel.com/archives/33428
I down voted you to keep the water safe for Bitcoin bulls.
I rarely, if ever, down vote anyone; but in this case it's an up vote down vote.
paging fonestar
fonestar is hot on the case.
Hey, its hard work mining BCs too, ya know. I mean, like, you have to hit keys and minimize your porn windows and stuff. Sheeesh.
LOL... try it, genius!
Just goin' for the cheap laughs. I'm too old to try anything new. I'll watch from the sidelines and cheer for any team that takes on the CB boyz.
BTW, ever read Daemon? Written in 09 and it may be close to happening. Hope so.
Just goin' for the cheap laughs.
Fair enough. :)
Peace.
I don't normally go for sci fi type books but that was a great read.
i get my Barbaric relic shipment tomorrow!
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/01/forget-metadata-nsa-spying-everyt...
If you don't like it don't buy it.
GOLD IS NOT BITCOIN. Only people like Singer obsess over making arguments on how bitcoin is not gold. They serve two separate purposes, have utility in their own right, are compliments to eachother, and share similar characteristics (such as not being able to be printed on a whim of some banker)
I bought some stuff from overstock with bitcoin. How do I buy things on overstock with gold?
I can buy stuff on overstock with a small plastic card.
What do you suppose the folks at overstock do with your Bitcons?
Whatever they want. I don't give a shit what they do with their bitcoins.
Just as I expected from a Bitconer. Can't quite make the connection, can you sport?
They can sell them, hold them, whatever they want.
Richard Branson has sold 6 flights to outerspace with bitcoin. He recently admitted that he's an investor in bitcoin. So it can be assumed that he did not convert all of the bitcoin into dollars.
A lot of people actually want to be paid their salary in bitcoin, like this Police Chief http://www.policeone.com/police-administration/articles/6643566-Chief-as... as well as many others.
As for overstock - they can do with their bitcoin whatever their heart desires.
Sport
Did he build his spaceship with Bitcons?
Look, I don't care what you use as a medium of exchange. I use dollars, Euros, silver, gold, lead, canned chili, fresh tomatoes, my labor, and all sorts of things as a medium of exchange. I just don't buy into the idea that Bitcons are safe, reliable or 'secret'.
Good. Don't buy them.
gold & crypto = apples & oranges
fruits of a different flavor
for tangible goods (food, fuel & shelter) ==> there's gold (& its little sister, silver)
for virtual goods like attention (ad clicks, likes, thumbs up, greenies), art, legal loopholes, even potentially electricity (once it decentralizes) ==> there's crypto
for everything else (debts & taxes), there's MasterFeRN.
I actually agree with this. Bitcoin is not a replacement of or competitor with gold. I would rather see people use bitcoin than USD/EUR/JPY/CHF/etc. I ultimately have a great deal more trust in gold as a store of wealth, but as a mechanism of everyday transactions, I'm good with using bitcoin.
How do I not kill myself after wasting my money on crap from overstock?
Shit, no wonder you guys are fallling all over yourselves losing money. You're idiots.
Can I put Bitcons in MyRA?
Yes, but you can never take them out...
Kind of like my wife's fingers in my wallet?
Gold is already international money.
So are dollar bills Jack
And bitcoin is global money by birth, compatible with the Internet Protocol.
-1
For... mis-statement.
And bitcoin is global money by birth... -- Bunga Bunga
No, bitcoin is a digital currency by design. The relevent question is: Whose design?
Designed by mathematics. Like gold designed by physics. That's enough to know.
-1
For... the shockingly obvious reason.
As soon as human choice was involved - which is open-source & ability to fork it, then no, it's not controlled by mathematics. It's controlled by frail human preference. Gold isn't.
Preference has no effect on what gold is.
Two words, People: Monster Box. ;-)
Like this? http://www.getlofi.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/monsterbox.JPG
;-)
Silver coins; good enough for my Grandpa; good enough for George Washington, good enough for a Roman Legion member; always good enough.
I've started to see bitcoin miner malware popping up on breached servers. Not sure how that impacts BTC value, but thought it worth mentioning.
No impact, they're mined at a fixed rate network-wide. It just changes who gets what share of what's mined.
Ah, makes sense.
just changes who gets what share of what's mined.
but isn't the point of choosing it over fiat, who gets what and how?