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China, Japan, The Yasukuni Shrine, And The Confederate Flag
Submitted by Shannon Tiezzi via The Diplomat,
On Wednesday, the United Nations Security Council held an open debate on the theme of “war, its lesson, and the search for a permanent peace.” Under-Secretary General for Political Affairs Jeffrey Feltman, addressing the Security Council, laid out the core of the problem: “As we have seen repeatedly, fighting that ends without reconciliation – especially fighting inside States – is fighting that can, and often does, resume.” In the concept paper for the debate, Prince Zeid Ra’ad Zeid Al-Hussein of Jordan wrote that the UN could play a role in “forging a deeper reconciliation among ex-combatants … based on an agreed or shared narrative, a shared memory, of a troubled past.” A common interpretation of history, Zeid believes, helps smooth tensions between former enemies.
To those following the tensions between Japan and China (as well as South Korea), the implications are obvious. As my colleague Ankit wrote, the UN debate became a stage for China, South Korea, and North Korea to criticize Japan’s handling of history. While the fighting between these nations ended almost 70 years ago, the process of reconciliation remains incomplete. The “deeper reconciliation” Zeid described, one based on “a shared memory of a troubled past,” has not yet emerged.
China and South Korea do have a “shared memory,” as shown by their comments during the UN debate. The problem, in their eyes, is that Japan “remembers” thing differently. When calling on Japan to “face up to history” or “admit mistakes,” as Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hua Chunying did this week, what they really mean is that Japan should accept without reservation China and South Korea’s version of history.
Here’s the problem with that approach: it’s inevitable that each country will view its past from a more sympathetic (though not necessarily approving) perspective. Generally, each country acknowledges (more or less) that mistakes were made, but no one else understands better how those mistakes happened — the mitigating factors that humanize the decision-makers. For example, Chinese citizens, in general, have a much rosier idea of Mao Zedong’s rule than non-Chinese; they know he made mistakes but will often claim that Mao did the best he could with the historical circumstances he faced.
The current tensions in Northeast Asia have another analogue: the conflicted legacy of the U.S. Civil War. As in the Northeast Asia dispute, the major issue is how to appropriately remember the war — especially the Confederates, who fought on behalf of slave-owning states.
For example, is it appropriate for Richmond, Virginia, the former capital of the Confederacy, to have a statue of famed Confederate general Robert E. Lee in the heart of the city; for high schools in the South to be named after Lee and other Confederate generals, or even after the Jefferson Davis, the President of the Confederacy, who was arrested (but never tried) for treason? And the ultimate symbolic issue, the subject of a televised debate on Newshour a few years ago — is it acceptable for Southerners (who may or may not have had ancestors fighting in the war) to fly the Confederate flag?
To many, the answer is obviously no — the Confederacy stands for slavery and all the horrors that went along with it. It symbolizes not only the oppression of an entire race, but the treason of splitting the country and provoking civil war. To fly such a flag is to intentionally celebrate those who caused untold pain and suffering to hundreds of thousands of Africans and African Americans.
To many others, though, the answer is just as obviously yes — while slavery was a terrible mistake, the Confederate soldiers were simply fighting to defend their homeland and deserve to be honored for their sacrifice. Under this line of thinking, the Confederate flag can be divested of its ties to slavery and simply honored as a symbol of Southern culture and heritage. Flying the flag has nothing to do with slavery; it symbolizes Southern pride.
In a similar way, some Japanese would argue that Yasukuni can be divested of its ties to war criminals and Japanese imperialism. In both cases, the problem is not so much a denial of history (although extremists in both Japan and the American South have fringe theories alleviating their countrymen of all blame) but a unique interpretation of history by the average person that allows him or her to reject the mistakes of the past without rejecting national or regional pride. It’s easy to frown upon this as Orwellian “doublethink,” but it’s common to all nations, races, and peoples. Judging it in others is easy; rooting it out in ourselves is another matter.
For those who shake their heads at how a 70-year old conflict is still riling up Northeast Asia, look at the U.S. 150 years later, and how it still hasn’t sorted out the legacy of the nation’s bloodiest war. Reconciliation doesn’t happen naturally with the passage of time. The shared memories and understandings that lead to reconciliation have to be nurtured by all sides of the conflict, and that takes both time and dedicated effort.
“Leaders need to set the example, not just in ceasing war-time rhetoric and ending the intentional promotion of grievances, but also by deeds of genuine cooperation and honest examinations of their own roles in conflict,” Feltman said at the UN debate. This clearly lays the burden of reconciliation on both sides. Not only do past aggressors need to honestly examine their roles in the conflict, but past victims must end the practice of parading their grievances. It’s tough to say which is more difficult, owning up to historical wrongs or letting them go. But both are equally necessary for the sort of reconciliation Northeast Asia needs.
That absolutely doesn’t mean that African Americans should embrace the Confederate legacy, or that Chinese and Koreans should accept Japanese politicians visiting Yasukuni. It does mean, though, that accusations and finger-pointing about past wrongs are not going to lead to present reconciliation. Indulging in such tactics doesn’t provide moral high ground; it shows an unwillingness to actually make things better.
Instead, solving the problem will take an honest conversation, not about history per se but about historical interpretations, and acknowledging of their power to wound even decades later. Right now, it’s impossible to imagine that conversation happening on an official diplomatic level, but it can just as easily take place elsewhere — in academia, or even in the comments section of articles like this one.
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. . . This incident burst upon the world last Friday in an official cablegram from the commander of our forces in the Philippines to our government at Washington. The substance of it was as follows:
A tribe of Moros, dark-skinned savages, had fortified themselves in the bowl of an extinct crater not many miles from Jolo; and as they were hostiles, and bitter against us because we have been trying for eight years to take their liberties away from them, their presence in that position was a menace. Our commander, General Leonard Wood, ordered a reconnaissance [sic]. It was found that the Moros numbered six hundred, counting women and children; that their crater bowl was in the summit of a peak or mountain twenty-two hundred feet above sea level, and very difficult of access for Christian troops and artillery. . . . Our troops climbed the heights by devious and difficult trails, and even took some artillery with them. . . . [When they] arrived at the rim of the crater, the battle began. Our soldiers numbered five hundred and forty. They were assisted by auxiliaries consisting of a detachment of native constabulary in our pay-their numbers not given-and by a naval detachment, whose numbers are not stated. But apparently the contending parties were about equal as to number-six hundred men on our side, on the edge of the bowl; six hundred men, women, and children in the bottom of the bowl. Depth of the bowl, 50 feet.
General Wood's order was, "Kill or capture the six hundred."
The battle began-it is officially called by that name-our forces firing down into the crater with their artillery and their deadly small arms of precision; the savages furiously returning the fire, probably with brickbats-though this is merely a surmise of mine, as the weapons used by the savages are not nominated in the cablegram. Heretofore the Moros have used knives and clubs mainly; also ineffectual trade-muskets when they had any.
The official report stated that the battle was fought with prodigious energy on both sides during a day and a half, and that it ended with a complete victory for the American arms. The completeness of the victory is established by this fact: that of the six hundred Moros not one was left alive. The brilliancy of the victory is established by this other fact, to wit: that of our six hundred heroes only fifteen lost their lives.
General Wood was present and looking on. His order had been, "Kill or capture those savages." Apparently our little army considered that the "or" left them authorized to kill or capture according to taste, and that their taste had remained what it has been for eight years, in our army out there-the taste of Christian butchers. . . .
Let us now consider two or three details of our military history. In one of the great battles of the Civil War ten per cent of the forces engaged on the two sides were killed and wounded. At Waterloo, where four hundred thousand men were present on the two sides, fifty thousand fell, killed and wounded, in five hours, leaving three hundred and fifty sound and all right for further adventures. Eight years ago, when the pathetic comedy called the Cuban War was played, we summoned two hundred and fifty thousand men. We fought a number of showy battles, and when the war was over we had lost two hundred sixty-eight men out of our two hundred and fifty thousand, in killed and wounded in the field, and just fourteen times as many by the gallantry of the army doctors in the hospitals and camps. We did not exterminate the Spaniards-far from it. In each engagement we left an average of two per cent of the enemy killed or crippled on the field.
Contrast these things with the great statistics which have arrived from that Moro crater! There, with six hundred engaged on each side, we lost fifteen men killed outright, and we had thirty-two wounded. . . . The enemy numbered six hundred-including women and children-and we abolished them utterly, leaving not even a baby alive to cry for its dead mother. This is incomparably the greatest victory that was ever achieved by the Christian soldiers of the United States.
And this...
"You seem to have about finished your work of civilizing the Filipinos. About 8,000 of them have been civilized and sent to Heaven. I hope you like it."
-- Andrew Carnegie, American industrialist and anti-imperialist, 1899
Down voting history? Damn.
Here's some more on the theme that the US taught Japan everything about imperialism.
This relationship, however, changed with the arrival of the western colonial powers, as personified in the arrival of Commodore Matthew Calbraith Perry's "Black Fleet" in 1854. Stopping first in Okinawa before heading to Tokyo Bay, the Americans that Perry represented became the first colonial threat that Japan was forced to deal with after hundreds of years of isolationism. Faced with this threat, Japan felt the need to take several steps in order to protect itself from colonial encroachments, as had been seen in places like China, "Indochina," and any of the other colonized Asian nations. Japan quickly embarked on an ambitious program to develop internally on the model of the modern western nation-state. Towards those ends, Japan began a rapid process of industrialization, heightened its sense of national unity, and solidified its borders. In order to learn how to engage in this process of modernization, Japan sent a number of delegations to various western nations to learn from their models, but sadly enough, they learned these lessons at the tail end of the main period of outright western imperialism, and quickly latched onto the model of colonialist expansion and empire building.
Ironically enough, Perry's initial contact with Okinawa was not only the first moment of contact between the United States and Okinawa, but also the first time that U.S. military forces committed crimes against the Okinawan people. Shortly after docking, an American sailor broke into the house of an Okinawan woman and raped her. Upon hearing the woman's screams, several villagers gave pursuit, and Board either fell into the port or was drowned. Following this incident the villagers involved in this incident were punished for their role in the sailor's death, and Perry presented the woman who was raped with a few yards of cloth as compensation for the assault. This incident of violence against Okinawan women represented a theme that would return again later when Okinawa was placed under United States occupation.
RAPE is topical when a WHITE-MAN RAPES an ASIAN WOMAN
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Technically what is rape?
I think for the white soldier, they take a proud people and reduce their women to the state of whores, where a woman will FUCK for 1/10 of a dollar to buy rice to feed her starving children.
How ever the WEST will not call this RAPE, as clearly the woman is working as a prostitute or 'COMFORT WOMAN', however prior to occupation, this same woman would have never allowed herself to be in that situation.
Clearly where-ever the USA goes, it destroys a peoples means to feed, cloth and house itself, and thereby the people are reduced to begging slaves, that will easily do as they're told for scraps of food.
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Was it RAPE? yes and no
Yeah, well you shouldn't a oughta said it. Truth hertz.
And then you went right ahead and did it again.
Those down errors...err...arrows'll learn ya.
Yes, the truth hurts. But still...what kind of American down votes Mark Twain?
Well its obvious here after 5 minutes that the majority DO NOT read the OP-POST, and the majority that down-vote don't even read the comments.
They just down vote by avatar.
Creating an account on ZH should require an IQ test that requires real knowledge of western culture multiple choice, ... who was Peewee Herman? A, B, or C?
I don't have to post a wall of text about the WWII atrocities committed by the Japanese, that outstrip that of others by 100X. Educate yourself.
You are both morons, cocksmoking relativists, stating bullshit that is demonstrably false.
Personal attacks, Dr.? Not very professional.
It doesn't matter what the Japanese did. The point is that Americans don't really hold the high ground on military atrocities even though, as victors, they get to write the history.
It is interesting that you would use the Great Wave of Kanagawa, cherished by the Japanese, as your avatar while you demagogue the nation. What's up with that?
The GOLDMAN-SACHS bot's working out of BANGALORE don't care, they're just trying to wear good men down.
I would highly suggest you post what you have to say, ... and let the immortal goldman-sachs ZH bots piss in the wind.
You want to argue the facts? It is a fact that the Japanese WWII atrocities in Asia were 100X worse than other nations. So when it comes to facts, you are already proven wrong.
Just because all nations have some atrocities during a given conflict, doesn't mean that all nations have the same amount of atrocities or the same degree of culpability.
Your lame relativist bullshit proves you are a moron.
Actually, you and StormSailor started the discussion. I was merely supporting his valid point.
You condemn the Japanese people for learning their history from a government education system which downplays the events of the past while you were educated (likely) by the American education system which also downplays its past. Are you beginning to understand now?
correct. there is no education system that does not downplay the acts of aggression and atrocities committed by the own part, be it public or private
it's called cultural bias, and often borders to historical revisionism. we all do it, and it's a matter of degrees, just how much
"there is no education system that does not downplay the acts of aggression and atrocities committed by the own part"
I disagree. The education system in the USA in recent decades has gone to great lengths to minimze and demonize its founding fathers and to promote white (goy) guilt.
Remove the parenthetical word and I doubt that many can disagree with that. Retain the word and it's equally true but some posters won't like it.
And I love lots of things about Japanese culture, its denial of history not one of them.
The ameriKKKan student is not told his true history either,
Me thinks that the USA & JAPAN have much in common, both FULL RETARD NAZI all along.
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WRT to CHINA versus JAPAN its a different kind of BUDDHISM, one is a FASCIST buddhism (JAPAN), and the other a KINDNESS(CHINA).
Remember the chinese built the wall to keep the assholes OUT.
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I like JAPAN too, the women and the food,
Me thinks KOREA/JAPAN very similar with their nazi CONTROL FREAK approach to life.
"It doesn't matter what the Japanese did."
That's somewhere between a non-sequitur and the dumbest thing I've seen here in a while (or at least a couple days).
In your case "cocksmoking relativist" isn't an ad hominem, it's backed up by evidence which you yourself provided. The others were cheap insults though.
Fuck you very much for your response.
If what the Japanese did during the war matters, why don't the atrocities of Americans matter? Hypocrisy much?
Two ZH immortals in Death to Death combat? ( 2yr versus 4yr )
How can this be?
Just curious, I think anybody else here carrying on would be banned deleted, but then your only attacking each other and strawmen.
How about some of this passion directed toward goldman-sachs, or BIS, or AIPAC?
I really want to see an IMMORTAL attack the PTB and see how long they remain IMMORTAL?
AIPAC will probably get you gone. Not sure about the other two. As for me, I'm just a bit tired of the constant rah-rah USA bullshit.
The Japanese people are not their government. The same is true for Americans. But, you can not dis the actions of the US government without everyone defending it.
This is the way I see it. If you know the government lied to you about Iraq, the IRA scandal, Benghazi, Obamacare, etc., why would anyone trust it about anything, even America's great and "moral" victories in wars? It must be a mental deficiency and not just among progressives.
Well you left right? I sure did,
I knew something was wrong when I was a kid.
When I was a kid of 20 I used to say "AMerica great to make money, sucks dick to live", I used to work 9 months a year and spend my summers in greece,
Then they destroyed greece so I had to find other paradise....
It got the point that NOTHING about the USA was good, ... I had no reason. When the Y2K crash came and you couldn't even make money anymore, then that was the final straw.
DONE.
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Why do you think AIPAC talk get's you banned here? To close to home for goldman-sachs?
I mean, how can you talk about the PTB, if you can't mention their name?
I see here for instance nobody ever says 'goldman sachs' they always say SQUID in code,... like they're fucking afraid of something.
I think Goldman is fair game since the Matt Tabbi "Vampire Squid" article (hence the 'squid' usage).
I have one foot in (elderly mother and only living relative) and one foot out. Asia is my choice as well.
Yep, asia,
No where else on earth can a man have a beautiful woman 1/2 his age at zero cost :)
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Pray tell how? Just learn the language and be a nice guy. :)
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Lastly, no fear of a divorce where she takes all, in Asia they only take what you give them.
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You can all have USA, fuck you very much.
"Just learn the language and be a nice guy."
My experiance as well. Show respect and get respect.
RESPECT! Now their is a word that could solve many problems.
I haven't noticed any tendency to defend the actions of the US government or instill trust in it around here (except when the trolls are out in force).
Check out just about any article related to China or Japan on about any subject.
HYPOCRISY?
They don't really know or care.
1.) that the USA created hitler and brought him to power
2.) that the USA created HIV and unleashed it on africa
3.) that the USA sexually muitilates baby's in every war, by high command order
4.) that the USA destroys economys and turns locals into prostitutes, so they don't have to call it 'rape'
Try to explain any of these to any USA patriot, and you will get a blank stare or a "EVERYONE DOES IT",
NO everyone does not do it.
1. THE HAN CHINESES THE DOMINANT ETHNIC GROUP IN CHINA USES THEIR SMALL PENISES AND ABORTION TO FUCK OTHER ETHNIC GROUPS OUT OF EXISTNENCE AS THEY HAVE DONE IN TIBET. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN CONFRONTED WITH A CHINK'S BREATH? DO YOU SHIT ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD AND GROW VEGGIES IN IT? CHINA AND ASIA IS A SMELLY SHITHOLE.
There is no hypocrisy in what I wrote. I never said that the atrocities of the Americans didn't matter. Furthermore, objectivity demands that they both be examined. However, it is irrational to equate the two.
It isn't about equating the two. It is about "he who is without sin, cast the first stone" and "first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."
Or for the secular, "those who live in glass houses should not throw stones."
I would add that no one should demagogue the people of a nation for the acts of its government. From a global perspective, that will backfire on Americans.
Find me a government without sin, and I'll start looking for a new home. But so far in all the governments where I have witnessed the inner workings I have found no saints.
" However, it is irrational to equate the two."
Did I read that right?
His previous statements precluded that he was arguing moral objectivism, which left irrationality/insanity or misunderstanding/miscommunication.
In Abu-Ghraib US-MIL would have german-sheperd dogs RAPE muslim men.
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During HITLER WWII he was most fond of having German Shepherds RAPE women and children to get confessions from their father.
See SHIRER's Book "Rise and Fall of 3rd Reich", entire chapter on HITLER lust for dog's on children to get confessions, ... then jump to modern USA, but then USA is has always been FULL NAZI.
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In the world stage I think HITLER/USA are far worst war criminals than anybody else in recorded history.
kind of ironic and certainly useless to argue over who was the most humane during a war. the more brutal the better would be my argument. all is fair. let's see who really wants to fight that war.
ISSUE is HYPOCRISY
The WEST (USA) likes to sell itself as the HONORABLE crusader fighting for jeebuz.
But sexually mutilitated infants tell another story. ( Mai-Lai, Falluja )
or who is forced to fight in a war. Note it is rarely the sons and daughters of finaciers
I think in all of history the US-MIL leads the world in outright genocide, take the infamous Vietnam killings in villages all over Vietnam.
Where US soldiers would cut off the genitals of children and women and make necklaces. Mai-Lai massacre,... photos a mutilated child corpses don't lie.
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Certainly the USA learned this trick from the native american indians and vice a versa.
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Did the child mutilations accomplish their goal? No it just made the Vietnamese stronger and hate the USA imperialists more, and it also convinced the natives that fighting and dying was better than living in hell.
Jump to today in IRAQ or FALLUJA few years ago.
When TEAM-USA enters a home they get the first born male child, and crush a testical and then say, where are the weapons?
If the family refuses to answer the second testcial is crushed, for the muslim family the first sons procreation is the most important thing in family life.
Why did the USA do this?
The USA does this because they're the most evil fucking bastards in world history.
Will chickens come home to roost in the USA?
FUCK YES
That in a country we should have never been in to begin with. How many of our own sons and daughters died there? And for what? Because we are bloodthirsty. And Chickenshit. THe great paradox. The general public hides at home and hails the heros as they go about killing for lies to afraid to stand up to the imperialists paid for by corporations.
Apparently the lessons of Vietnam have been forgotten.
You are so full of fucking shit, and the worst part is you don't have a fucking clue of what you are spouting off out your ass about. I'll make you my little bitch by squeezing your tiny nads until you admit you are nothing more than a paid troll.
actually, i am quite correct. my sources are not only the letters of soldiers stationed in the phillipines, but the responses of the generals and elected officials including teddy roosevelt.
methinks you are the one that should read more than one book and then try to debate facts, or show how shallow and one sourced your education is.
dr my ass.
" The completeness of the victory is established by this fact: that of the six hundred Moros not one was left alive."
The victory went to the Moro's. Death before dishonor.
Hey Dr. Bengay, Happy New Year:
Presented without comment in the interests of edukashun...
You think Maos rule and genocide was a WWII atrocity? And that the Chinese have no right to be upset with Japanese denial of WWII atrocities because the Chinese have killed themselves so much anyway with Mao?
You type this inane drivel and actually think you have made a clever post?! Laughable abortion of a homonculus.
Not to worry Doc. Just more examples of Orwellian double speak. And oh yeah, a coin generating article.
Same damn banks and bankers that we celebrate here (sarc) are who brought war to the South, just as they do to any free people who will not be willingly robbed.
YEah God forbid one be robbed of their slaves
Few people appreciate the degree to which the Civil War began over economics and not slavery. Yes, slavery was part of the economics, and yes it was also a moral issue. The Confederay was wrong about slavery, but it was right about many other issues of the time. Lee had to choose between his country and his state. He chose his state. He was a man of honor.
if harriet beecher stowe hadn't written that rag "uncle toms cabin" slavery would have been abolished in the south it was no longer economically feasible. and it would have been done in a logical and thought out way.
read a diary from dixie, large plantations were giving the overseer all of the profits to work the plantation with the slaves at a break even. there were very few takers.
northern factories used immigrant labor, they gave them 4 cents a day and after 18 or 20 hours, they turned them out into the cold streets. if they died, who cares, there were another 100 to take their place the next day. funny how that rhymes with illegal immigrant amnesty today.
slaves had to be taken care of, clothed, fed as they were valuable members of the plantation. they couldn't be thrown out into the street at the end of their shift.
funny you don't have an irish greivance industry, or an italian greivance industry. etc. etc.
I'll have to disagree with that - I thinkt that our fight to end slavery was a bit out of sequence. It wasn't in line with the general "progress" of the world; which at that time was all about a twisted liberalism which posited that some people were superior, others inferior and the inferior should serve the superior. I do think that if we hadn't abolished slavery it would have spread north - perhaps not in the chattel sense it was used in the South, but in various forms of serfdom where people would be assured the basic necessities as long as they worked as commanded and didn't rock the political/economic boat. Remember, in 1861 we were on the eve of the spead of socialism in the Western world - and what is that but the enslavement of the people to a small, elite Ruling Class? And just when did any of the titans of allegedly capitalist industry ever fight socialism? Did they not, rather, seek to coopt it and, indeed, use the tax and regulatory schemes of the socialists to provide the bread and circuses designed to drug a population in to not caring much who is in charge? My view is that if the South hadn't seceeded, then the slaves would have become "free", but only free as their northern compatriots crammed in to noisome slums were free...to work, to be indoctrinated in miserable public schools and to lose all desire to own property as freemen.
The mistake of the South - and it was a terrible one - was to not create some method whereby a slave could become a serf could become a free holder. Early on, of course, this sort of sequence could and did happen - there was almost always a population of free blacks in the South (and some of them slave holders!). But the South, too, became infected with the modern notions and greedy and base men fixed upon the public mind that Africans were inherently inferior and only suited to slave labor...with additional fears of what free blacks would do to whites if suddenly made free (and no consideration of what they would do if slowly freed over generations as they became fully integrated in to the American civilization).
two comments that with a little imagination could describe America today. A bunch of old white kleptocratic facists intent on scaring the shit out of people via the word socialism until such time as they have all the wealth and slavery returns. Oh wait, my bad. It has. Read the Omnibus bill and the Ag bill. Deliberately crafted to redistribute more wealth to the top. Reagan is laughing in his grave.
Well, not just white kleptocratic fascists - in this, our Ruling Class is quite advanced: they'll let anyone in as long as they do as they're told...and, of course, as long as there aren't too many non-white people on Park Avenue.
In every society there are always going to be people who will try to get over on others - to steal power and wealth which is not honestly earned. There is no way to stop people from trying, so our only defense is to ensure that there is no political or economic power base large enough to tyrannize over the whole of society. Big Government and Big Corporation are just two sides of the same coin - a Distributist society is the only way to go.
No, Lee had to make a concious moral decision. He caved.
Consider the devastation of Detroit, Camden, Philadelphia, and Baltimore today. Ask yourself if Southern Armies could/would have done that, and then reconsider your assumptions on the wisdom of fighting a war to liberate those responsible.
Bonus points if you can still make a case for "equality".
who raised a 100,000 man army to march into seceeded states and "put down the rebellion".
funny that slavery was not even mentioned by abraham lincoln until after sept of 1862 after a non-loss by the union army. and even then he freed slaves in the seceeded states, not in the union.
funny that letters betweeen the general of the army of the potomac and the president specifically disregarded slavery in any way, as if it were introduced into the war aims the union soldiers would desert.
not funny that once the war was won by the glorious union army. there was absolutely no plan for what to do with 20% of the population that were "freed" other than to turn them loose into an economically devastated area with absolutely no plan other than the same plan we see now. promising them gibbs for votes.
funny how it was the republican party that started the votes for gibbs. while all southern states were under martial law. and how the kkk and knights of the camelia were formed to control an out of control population of people that had absolutely no idea how to live a civilized life but stole, looted, and raped at will with no legal repurcussions.
wow, the more things change, the more they remain the same.
lincoln didn't free the slaves, lincoln reduced all citizens of the union into wage slaves and then proceeded to prepare the way for the federal reserve and federal taxes. so that the elected would have a pool of gibbs to promise for votes.
i don't fly the confederate flag, although at least 10 of my direct relatives fought for the confederacy, most in the 14th nc. they didn't own slaves, but they signed up to defend their state against an army of invaders.
when i read about the politically created have nots, taking from the haves my mind wanders back to those small farm boys from nc that had the stones to stand up to the tyranny, in fact the 14th nc was one of the toughest units in the confederate army, when they were in a position they stuck, so solidly that they were given the name "tar heels".
i keep waiting for the bgi to demand that the university of north carolina change their "racist" name. but so far they are to stupid to figure it out.
i also got quite a laugh from the big promotion of the "buffalo soldiers" that was so in vogue in the past few years. what was so funny to me is that the northern souix named those soldiers, they said they were living proof that the white soldiers had sex with buffalo. they are to stupid to figure that out as well.
needless to say, "over hell" this little party, even though its 140 years old, the war has never left the mind of quite a few southern people, and the fight isn't over either, this party is just starting.
Well said. "Last at Appomattox" and only at halftime.
I lived in the South for a while and got my fill of the sorry redneck minority who pined for their mythical Confederate paradise. The South Shall Rise Again, they declared, and perhaps it would if those who wished to return to the socialist slave-holding Confederacy would be educated, or sober, or not assholes.
the north should have bought the freedom of the slaves it would have been possible as they were wealth to the land owners and the money could have been used to pay the slaves for labor IDK the war was about keeping wealth in the south cause without slaves many landowners would be unprofitable. then the sharecropper model came about etc..
Equating individual freedom w/ profit or lack of profit when it comes to human bondage.
"Orwellian doublespeak"
Excellent. Just remember this....The Emancipation Proclomation was an EXECUTIVE ORDER....and it only 'freed' slave in the south....not the north. Take this to mind, and read the real 'history' of the era and you will see the truth behind the war.
Not just the truth behind the civil war. But the truth of Ameican history since we landed upon these shores and then immediately went to killiing, oppressing and stealing from all in our way. Manifest Destiny by God. And for some in the name of seekiing Religious Freedom.
"and how the kkk and knights of the camelia were formed to control an out of control population of people that had absolutely no idea how to live a civilized life but stole, looted, and raped at will with no legal repurcussions."
"also got quite a laugh from the big promotion of the "buffalo soldiers" that was so in vogue in the past few years. what was so funny to me is that the northern souix named those soldiers, they said they were living proof that the white soldiers had sex with buffalo. they are to stupid to figure that out as well."
Not funny at all. But funny in a "Black Comedy" sense. The number of up votes you got for that. Telling indeed.
Oh, does it mean that when a war over slavery burst out, facing two sides, two 'american' sides that claimed that freedom is an unalienable human rights, 'americans' managed to field:
-one side fighting for status quo on slavery (the union side)
-one side fighting for the expansion of slavery?
Woooo, that would be gross. Imagine that: two sides claiming to fight for freedom and the two managing to fight for status of slavery and expansion of slavery.
Always funny to see an 'american' who cant take reality as it is, that is the south enforcing an institution of slavery, seeking refuge in the fact that the north was not against slavery.
You cant beat an 'american'.
And you've got to believe 'americans' stand for freedom. Believe that or they bomb you the 'american' way.
Ah, the Chinese Citizenism progrational offuscation of the monolizing of the insanitational means. Best yet, never less than that. Made me laugh.
But when you lie down with Chinese Citizenism wokked dogs, you rise up with fleas.
That is Chinese Citizenism in a nut's shell.
rather shallow interpretation. the civil war analogy to east asian conflict is not accurate. the only empire builders east asia has ever spawned were intracountry and the khan brothers. japan, threatened by the usa, adopted a western model of society(euro based. the usa is still considered too new to learn from in terms of social and cultural sophistication and were considered uncultured but amusing, respected only for it's power in the early days) and immediately embarked on western style empire building. being totally unfamiliar with western style aggression coming from a neighbor the region is rightfully fearful of the emergence of another imperial japan and have considered japan as america's proxy in the region so ultimately the region fears the usa more than japan. the entire island dispute is a test of the usa's committment to japan. korea is the first line of defense against china and is expendable. japan is the key to usa asian hegemony. yasukuni shrine has been propagandized as a useful tool of the chinese and south jorean .govs. to raise the local nationalism to the point of obscuring bad .gov. there is really no tension between .govs in the region aside from the usual squabbles meant to gain trade advantage.
the country that has been the historical bogeyman in the entire region is china. this is a thousands year old sentiment.
ps. how many war criminals are buried in arlington cemetery. that place makes a better analogy.
When the day comes that blacks stand behind / fly the confederate flag, we will know peace. Because they will know true tyrrany
They have known it. To believe that the terror they lived under would not have generational impact is to fail to understand Human Dynamics. And yes I understand that most nations and races have practiced slavery.
War is not possible today without uncertainty of the outcome for those that instigate war.
Therefore the way that a corporaion or family banking cartel would achieve thier goals would be to take out their opponents directly. As things heat up we will likely see the deaths of more bankers, heads of state and corporate leaders instead of the good old fashioned wars we have come to know.
The real results of Central planning are the deaths of those doing the planning.
Bravo on comments. Their death spiral is is becoming clear.
This is content free drivel. What I've learned from ZH in the last week is that the Diplomat, whatever that is, is utter horseshit with headlines that are mere clickbait. For shame, Tyler.
Best comment WRT this OP-POST.
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Chinese are the Jews of Asia, and JAP's are the Nazi's of ASIA.
Why the CHINESE didn't create their own AIPAC, ADL, JDL, ... to portray themselves as victims is telling, probably better shit to do.
Why the JAP's keep rubbing salt in the wounds by saying "CHINESE SEX SLAVES 'ENJOYED IT'" is telling, but that's politics, and NATIONALISM must come to JAPAN if they're to throw off the USA imperial YOKE.
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Make no mistake, that the JAP's killed every male they could, and send everyone with a vagina to a "FUCK CAMP", where they were fucked to death, and most only lasted weeks.
If you ever go to CHINA, there are ton's of GRAPHIC MOVIES they show on buses, and I'm talking fucking graphic, of women killing themselves just so they can stop being fucked 100's of times a day, chained to bed's 24/7 and endless men beating off to wait for their turn to fuck.
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Lastly, almost ALL CHINESE LOVE the USA, cuz the USA dropped the NUKE on JAPAN.
If I were Japanese, I'd at this point start to think that Chinese and Korean complaints are just tiresome - there are very few in Japan today who had a hand in the policies of Japan during the war, and none of the survivors of that time were in any sort of executive position. It certainly isn't any business of the heirs of Mao to complain about Japanese atrocities in China - Mao and his minions did far worse than the Japanese ever did. As for the Koreans, it wasn't like the Korean people were unanimous in hating Japanese rule - our Marines found plenty of fight in the Korean troops dispatched to the Pacific islands; and the North Korean government, of course, is continuing to do worse things to the North Korean people than the Japanese ever did.
There comes a time when its appropriate to bury the hatchet. This is why I, as a patriotic American, do not consider the Confederate flag to be a hateful symbol. I'm sure my ancestors back when did - and it was understandable. But that fight is long over and what is right and proper for us is to learn from it...learn not just of the horrors of slavery and express gratitute for those who fought to end it, but also learn just how a democratic republic can stumble, almost blindly, in to Civil War when it was never necessary (Lincoln was never going to interefere with the internal affairs of the South - and, indeed, by fighting the South got precisely the much more powerful and intrusive central government they feared). Those who try to whip up hatred of the Confederate banner are the trouble makers - they are the race-baiters trying to embitter a nation in order to advance their political desires...in this, they are acting in much the same manner as the Southern "fire eaters" who pushed the South in to secession and America in to Civil War.
"But that fight is long over and what is right and proper for us is to learn from it."
So nice were this true. But from my neck of the woods in the rural south to neighborhoods in Boston, Mass. The hatred rages. At least in older poplations. Fortunately the young are moving on.
Not> Enough comments. You fuzzy dolls have the audacity to disrespect me?
I've walked many a beach for you bitchez.
Douches "r" us are downvoting now. I'll NEVER QUIT or GIVE UP ! NEVER!
I know you don't give up and I would not worry about a red vote too much Yen.
The election of Barry Soetero has vindicated the victory of the North over the South and shown the just hand of God almighty. The God of Isreal.
The UN has front men who plead for peace, while its bankster puppetmasters design for war.
Simple as pie.
How about the war of northern agression and northern industrialists facing an ever more dissatisfied and hostle workforce in the early stages of colectivising, fearing the competition from the energing industrial slave plantations such as Tannehill Furnaces in Alabama?
I have an agreement with those southern boys and some of them are my friends. The Stars and Bars has nothing to do with slavery but rather state's rights. I take umbrage with Hawaii's state flag to be honest. If Shannon Tiezzi ever ends up in the South....
"Orwellian double speaik"
Quick, somebody put this bitch over your knee and spank her like a child for questioning the honor and moral high ground of the South in the Civil War.
you forgot to add /sarc
The Tylers knew what they were going after when they posted this article. Brillance.
and what may that be, a fucking beat down lesson in history, pay attention, this ain't public school, you may learn something useful. It is always a victory when one can fill the heads of fucktards with some truth for a change and sooner or later even a fucktard will get off their ass and start questioning the pap they been fed for years.
my understanding of constitutional law leads to the conclusion that the question of seccession should have been given to the supreme court to decide. Unfortunately Mr. Lincoln threw the court in jail. Go to the capital building and visit the old supreme court room and ask them why it was only in use until 1860 and then why the new building came into use in 1865. Checks and balances . . yeh right.
Lincoln was a tyrant and a butcher . . . they all are when it comes to maintianing power.
Kunstler, is that you?
The US past Confederate period in our history is not comparable to Japan or China. Both the US north and the US confederacy were ultimately a war of ideals each saw as noble that in the end both the north and south were enobled ideologically in their changed views of governance. It was not uncommon for brothers in the same family to fight on different sides, or countless acts of chivalary and nobility shown on both sides. Japan and Chinas historic wars were tyrants and thugs with guns and simple sun sue grab of power and territory.
Absolutely. 'American' ideals. The best to ever happen to humanity.
Chinese Citizenism ideals.
The best to ever happen to the parangongs of blobbing-up.
The Japanese and the Chinese are not like us - brutalities that we would consider horrific were rather common ingredients in those two nations (and in China, still are). It was a certainty that if Japan and China went to war there would be some rather spectacular cruelties - and for China to kick up a whine about what Japan did is clearly just something for domestic consumption...
I live in a rural part of New England, and two of the homes in my neighborhood fly Confederate flags. I suppose it's a way of saying "I'm white and not ashamed of it", which is a pretty radical statement. White people are evil if they see themselves as people of every other race see themselves (cf. the NAACP, La Raza, the Congressional Black Caucus, and hundreds of other organizations openly promoting the welfare of nonwhite races).
Absolutely. Everyone is equal.
Can a human being be more disconnected from reality than when being an 'american'?
Reality is a funny thing. Seems to be different for everyone.
Does a Chinese Citizenism citizen shit on the roadside?
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Tricky question. Depends whether human being AnAnonymous is being an american or just valorates american citizenism as a hobby.
My late father had an interesting point about 20 odd years ago - that if push came to shove, then all of us who are in favor of liberty would be very interested in getting the support of those rednecks who wave the Confederate flag. Keeping in mind that my father was the least bigoted man I've ever known (and I mean, seriously: he just treated everyone with the simple, human dignity they have from God...most of us, most of the time, really can't manage that), he pointed out that the aforementioned redneck might have some fool ideas, but in the basic concept of not wanting to be told how to live, he is American to the core.