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Watch As HFT Debate Devolves Into Epic Screamfest In Milliseconds
The clearly agitated BATS CEO came out swinging, blasting Katsuyama and Lewis "Shame On You," for apparently telling the truth of what occurs in the stock 'market and letting everyone in on it'. The tension grows when he presses Katsuyama on whether he really believes it is rigged... who then erupts "I believe the markets are rigged.. and that you are a part of the rigging." Then the gloves come off "you wanna do this, let's do this!" and then it got worse (or better)...
Just the first 3 minute round in this epic clip is worth the price of admission (and note the floor traders cheers in the background)... but to watch the status quo crushed under the awesome honesty of reality as this is all exposed, watch on...
And here's the highlights...
Who won? (based on CNBC's own ongoing poll - link)
Things escalated a little for O'Brien (as 3 hours later)...
As a gentle reminder of why the BATS CEO is upset to start with...
How a rogue algo crushed the BATS IPO
In Nanex' own words:
Start at line 192 -- these weren't stale quotes from Nasdaq by any means. These were highly accurate and precisely updated quotes from a sophisticated algorithm programmed to take BATS's price to 0. You can see the BATS trades just before the algo on Nasdaq starts up. In other words, after the BATS trades print, everything is fine (except of course for BATS' system). Nasdaq's system is just fine. So is CQS (the SIP). That algo did its job with the precision of a master watch maker.
The data and charts make this abundantly clear. The trade(s) that shut down Apple would be considered stale/bad quotes. But not those 500+ trades on Nasdaq.
Nanex' verdict:
It had to be someone who's machines are directly connected to Nasdaq because they used Intermarket Sweep Order orders.
And visually:
Look at the timing! There are many quotes lasting less than 1/10,000 of a second in there! (10 quotes/millisecond). And note the almost perfect 45 degree line in log-scaled blue line below.
Had to be from same algo. Way too perfect. Way. Too. Perfect.
If BATS' system hadn't failed, this algo would have likely been obscured.
Alas, BATS did fail, and the result was March 2012's epic embarrassment for BATS which already cost the CEO his chairmanship, and the firm hundreds of millions in fresh equity, but also which destroyed any hope that the retail investor may be coming back to what is now a permanently and terminally broken market.
And with this occurring now, it is unlikley O'Brien will ever get it back...
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No, no fur flying or blood. Darn...
Really ought to just put them in a gladiator ring with large mallets.
Milliseconds? It should have been fantaseconds.
"fear, mistrust, accusation."
He is talking about the state? I'm confused....
Made me think of the movie Brazil, it's propaganda slogans/posters, like this one:
http://i.imgur.com/8cGcA.jpg
A bunch of them from this link:
http://imgur.com/a/z1E6J#0
Awesome! Wow, these ol' boys do NOT like their cash cow boat being rocked! lol
BatShit Crazy
Wedbush was going to help underwrite the IPO since they have a sizable stake.
You gotta love the business models that are supported by rigged markets... there certainly are a lot of them. Don't want to be under that shoe.
Why does Peter Schiff think there is nothing wrong in the world of HFT? I listened to him today and yesterday and he made it out like there was nothing to see here, move along?
Maybe if he kisses HFT's ass they will buy some of his miners?
Maybe to him none of it is real anyway. Monopoly money.
Well, looking at it realistically, if you lost money in the stock market it wasn't because of HFT; no matter how seductive that argument may be. it was because of one of the usual human behaviour patterns; only buy at the top; take small profits and let large losses grow, etc, etc. But of course it's more fun to blame someone or something else.
It is funny the only person hating the Federal Reserve on CNBS is Rick Santelli. The Federal Reserve is a much bigger problem than HFT. Great, if the Federal Government gets involved with HFT, we will see more regulation. More regulation will be written by the financial industry further screwing the retail investor.
The Fed is propping it all up. If the Fed dies then so too does this entire party: and, well, the Fed WILL die, because nothing lasts forever, AND, BAD SYSTEMS FAIL.
Regulation or not is of no importance other than to play a part in who gets what piece of what. No ideology, nothing, is going to save an empire from its destiny with collapse: for more about the 3,000 year history of empires collapsing (they ALL do), read John Glubb's "The Fate Of Empires" (apparently there are copywrite issues, as the previously available copy that has been referenced of late is no longer); a bit of it is contained in this link (only referencing it because it has several recitations to the book):
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/01/14/john-bagot-glubb/
Really? So HFT causes a flash-crash, big money is moved, some win, some lose, then NASDAQ reverses trades of their choosing with no appeal & that's your own fault?
No. It's crime. The bank robbers are at fault for bank robbing.
" if you lost money in the stock market it wasn't because of HFT "
That is just BS.
I put in a trade to sell 1000 shares at the bid. It sat there doing nothing , then all of a sudden, trades happened at the bid, only that they werent my shares got sold. When it was all finsihed, I got 3 shares sold and the bid dropped as expected.
I complainted to eTrade and they were sympathetic , they reversed the commision charge.
If I had to sell because I need the money right away, I would have lost money.
Day in day out when I put in orders to buy or sell, the same thing decribed in Lewis book happened - the bid and ask changed so I have to change the price to my disadvantage. It happens all the time now. Even with options.
I encourge people to tell eTrade to route their orders through IEX.
And by the way, IEX is still private . The stock IEX belongs to the company IDEX.
In reality, it is kinda more noise than substance. HFT only really got rid of scalpers. The people really taken advantage are the larger institutions who have gigantic orders and the asshole HFT front load their orders. I rather have lower commissions and smaller spreads due to liquidity that the HFT traders provide than high spreads. Imagine buying shares of 10000 shares of MSFT back in the day. What were the spreads? What were the commission? How long did it take for your orders to get filled? If retailer investors are daytrading, swing trading and position trading, who cares? Another thing, would CNBS really be covering the story if it was a big deal? CNBS are only interested in the ratings. This is kinda TMZ tabloid bullshit for financial news.
This is exactly like the Ukrainian incident. The MSM only report their side of the story and kinda ignore the fact that the US started the colored revolutions, give $5 billion to NGO's in Ukraine and the who thing is a military industrial complex grab for putting weapons in Ukraine and taking over of the banks and gas pipelines. Separate the noise from the real news. FUCK the MSM and CNBS!
"I rather have lower commissions and smaller spreads due to liquidity that the HFT traders provide than high spreads."
Your position seems to be that as long as someone else is getting screwed and you're benefiting, then that's just peachy. You're clearly a person of high, unassailable principles.
Also, let's see how your HFT liquidity providers treat you during the next market break. I'm certain they'll be right there for ya, just waiting to fill your orders.
"Imagine buying shares of 10000 shares of MSFT back in the day."
HFT turned into the turd blossom it is today in just the last 10 years or so (e.g., Reg. NMS passed in '07). What 'back in the day' are you talking about? I don't remember in 2003 having to place verbal orders into rotary phones, waiting with bated breath for price updates via ticker tape before hopping into my Ford Model T. Deploying slugs of $100k into equities took a tad more finesse than today, but if done right, the outcomes were just fine.
I agree with you. This is a shitty immoral advantage by these HFT fucker.
But . . . .
What difference is it between HFT and the guys in the pit who can see who is buying and selling and the facial expressions on the guys who are selling and buying for the big boys and front loading their positions accordingly (those days are gone)?
What difference is it between HFT and the scalpers who used to look at level two screens and seeing where the orders are and front loading their orders before the big boys stepped in (those days are gone)?
What difference is it between this and Nathan Rothchild having couriers race back to England to tell him that Napoleon lost Waterloo?
In the words of Hilary Clinton, "What difference does it make?"
There are much bigger problems afoot. This is a small fraction of the financial problems. Libor is a gigantic scandal. What the Federal Reserve is doing is criminal. FX fixing. Gold Fixing. For the government and CNBC to be concerned about this shit and letting the other shit go tells you this is a BIG FUCKING DISTRACTION. Government and CNBC don't want to scare away the retail investor. That is only reason why they are concerned; otherwise, who the fuck cares. It is just like worrying about abortion and gay rights. How many people does gay rights and abortion really affect? 1-5% of the population at most. People make decisions on silly little social issues while gigantic issues such as global empire, military industrial complex, domestic spying and the surveillance state, the Federal Reserve, bailouts, etc. go virtually unnoticed by the zeitgiest. The whole HFT story is just so that CBS, NPR, CNBC, and what useless other MSM media outlet can say to the little man, "hey, look we are looking out for you," (when they are really not) while they fucking use their fucking mouthpiece to spew the utterly horrendous bullshit from the government and corporate assholes.
I agree with your point.
"There are much bigger problems afoot. This is a small fraction of the financial problems. Libor is a gigantic scandal. What the Federal Reserve is doing is criminal. FX fixing. Gold Fixing. "
No disagreement here. HOWEVER, I think the question that really needs to be asked is: Why is it that we're seeing such far-reaching manipulations? I would proffer that this is answerable if it's viewed as being a product of necessaity and verging on desperation.
Our paradigm, of which this critically important element that's referered to as an "economic system," is DEEPLY flawed, premised on the IMPOSSIBLE: perpetual growth on a finite planet.
All that we're seeing is ourselves starting to feed on ourselves as we start to starve: in this case it's business and profits and not quite yet the literal (though it's assuredly happening, just that it's a bit off of the horizon to most of us).
It's a Murderers Ball. Complaining about bad behaivor seems a bit silly when viewed in the larger context...
Seer,
I see you are on the rant wagon about growth. I fully agree. The MSM and all talking heads continue to spout the propaganda that if we could only get back to "growth" then everything would be just peachy. That is factually and mathematically wrong but it doesn't stop them.
Where I would like to add to your growth rant is that the reason why we need perpetual, exponential, compouding growth is not for the sake of the growth itself but as a direct consequence of the Fractional Reserve Banking model. In this model, only the principal is ever printed out of thin air at the inception of a loan (the word "loan" having been corrupted). the interest is never printed. Therfore, for interest to be paid back you need to use the principal from someone else's loan and pay it back as your interest. The amount requiring to be paid back always exceeds that which has been printed and therefore you need an exponential rise of new principal (loans printed out of thin air) for there to be sufficient to pay back Principal + Interest.
The Fractional Reserve Banking model is at the root of the perpetual exponential growth fetish.
"Complaining about bad behaivor seems a bit silly when viewed in the larger context..."
I think complaining about it is a sign you have left the Matrix.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A
Peter Schiff is a morally corrupt HACK
I guess you got what you were looking for, a bunch of down-arrows.
I don't profess to know whether he is or isn't morally corrupt, but I DO know that he's a talking-head. I also know that he, as do all the talking-heads catering to the "game," fails to discuss (if it's "comprehend" then that's total incompetence) the problems of growth: they ALL scream about creating "growth," only their means differ.
He owns/runs a brokerage firm, so he's adding bps to his bottom line through his order routing, take away away HFT and EuroPac loses a revenue stream (or more accurately that revenue stream shrinks considerably).
Since EuroPac supposedly doesn't do prop trading, he's talking his own book (not that there's anything wrong with that...)
hey bats ceo, zuckerberger got $4B yesterday. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! LOSER!
Yeah, we're talking gold-plated nailgun here! (none of the cheap shit)
No audio here.
The forum is text-based. (yeah, </sarc>)
Send O'brien over to my MMA dojo...I need some fresh meat to punch, kick and choke!
How fast do I have to click my mouse to be considered a HFT? My co worker says I click real fast.
"Who won?"
We All Lost
Brilliance in brevity...
I'm at work and I can't watch the video....
But I love how both the financial sector and government agencies like the NSA get so indignant over someone spilling the beans.
Their condemnation of whistleblowers is my nourishment.
Yes I drink the tears of bankers and quasi governmental agencies.....they are SOOOOOOO Good!
HFT: The Illusion of Liquidity.
Asian guy verbally destroyed him.
Brad Katsuyama and Michael Lewis commit suicide or die in some sort of vehicular accident in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1
It won't be that quick....but three months from now, when no one is looking or paying attention...
BAM!
No way. They are all part of the plan. It's unpossible that 60 minutes and all MSM is reporting on this book unless TPTB have a plan in place, Fuck Tyler has been all over this years ago.
So you're saying that they mean to let this out for everyone to know what criminals they are. Stealing money from retirement accounts.
HFT was making money until this guy figured out what was happening. Why would they allow him to do that if it was making billions for them?...as he's stated.
TPTB don't just turn off HFT for some back up plan...I doubt that premise.
Bullshit. HFT is being thrown under the bus and is doesn't have a damn thing to do with this guy and his book. Everybody in the business knows about HFT, now TPTB wants the public to know. THey have started rolling out the next phase of what ever plan they have cooked up.
Doc I agree with your views on HFT. The only thing is I don't think they are rolling out any next phase (yet). We have been there and done that with all this already. I am pretty sure the result will be the same this time around.
http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2010/10/11/high-frequency-trading-what-you-mi...
THey have started rolling out the next phase...
http://images.brisbanetimes.com.au/2014/03/03/5223827/SB-snake_gall13-20...
Now that we see the evidence of the retirement of the frn dollar in terms of being the global reserve currency, my question is how will the still large number, (and likely majority), of upstanding citizens in the US ultimately respond to learning their leaders purposefully and systematically butchered / sacrificed the country's innocence on the altar of expedience?
jmo.
Quantum chips installed in all of the proles foreheads. The proles will then be programmed to open their wallets at the will of the PTB. Simple
Agreed. It wouldn't be there if you're not allowed to see it.
Throwing red meat out there...
The "plan" is ALWAYS "distraction."
Reality-based communityhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community
Reality-based community is an informal term in the United States. In the fall of 2004, the phrase "proud member of the reality-based community" was first used to suggest the commentator's opinions are based more on observation than on faith, assumption, or ideology. The term has been defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from judicious study of discernible reality." Some commentators have gone as far as to suggest that there is an overarching conflict in society between the reality-based community and the "faith-based community" as a whole. It can be seen as an example of political framing.
The source of the term is a quotation in an October 17, 2004, The New York Times Magazine article by writer Ron Suskind, quoting an unnamed aide to George W. Bush (later attributed to Karl Rove[1]):
And from George W. Bush's father:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txukr5zgHnw
"When we are successful, and we will be, we will have a real chance at this new world order"...
Is the Pierre Omidyar funding this little misadventure project too along with Mr. Ed and Maidan "Freedom Movement" among other patron(s)?...
This is nothing more than damage control and the best part is like the "trading movement placement debate" that is being propped up by Katusyama and Lewis it is nothing more than a PR stunt to salvage what the investor with brain has been figuring out courtesy of "ZH" for the last 5 years.
Stand by folks still in the Market. Cause that floor your 401K is standing on that has no foundation to it courtesy of these fraudsters has a 30,000 foot view below to nowhere!
I was completely pizzed off when I found out Matt Tabbi was going over to those lying douche bags. Snowden and Greenfeld are both on the Ziionist payroll and now Tabbi,,,,,,,geeeezzz!! That and they are in a partnership with Huff Po!!! Whaaaa!!
As bad as Lauren Lyster going to Yajoo!!
The timing of "60 minutes" introduction on the subject is the giveaway.
Why now?... After it's been hanging out there for so many years.
They used Lewis' book out of desperation with IEX being the new window treatment in a last ditch effort to save what is left of it. The shell game is at least 3 years beyond the "smell test" for expiration.
CBS certainly didn't have altruistic motivations in airing this, and if anyone believes that I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell them! CBS lost all of it's journalistic credibility after the 9/11 Commission Report came out and failed to bring Dan Rather back for an "up close and personal" given his own significant involvement and to do his last interview with the likes of Dr. Steven Jones Kevin Ryan and James Gourley!
If they had done that I'd be watching them every Sunday night!
Racist retarted loser
You do realize that objecting to a politically motivated agenda fostered by a sectarian segment of society does not constitute racism, right?
Watch out for nail guns... thats all I gotta say.
And the award goes to?
http://thewackydeli.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/DoucheBagoftheyear-co...
CNBS execs. must have raging boners over the (ratings) "Fight Club" they've hosted over the last 36 hours...CNBS Cripple Fights
HFT ae all baised on front running ....I've never seen a hft go out and buy stock but just top my bis for .001 which is front running ....it's illegal and should be stopped and traders should thrown in jail
front running and quote stuffing. quote stuffing is fraud, front running is racketeering.
Yeah, when are they gonna start talking about the quote stuffing. . . . *crickets*
p.s. I have read most of Lewis's stuff and I have to read this to see how deep he goes. If it's mostly Katsuyama's story it should still be a great read but I'm already telling myself not to expect too much more. And, I'm a cheap bastard and just may wait for a used copy. :D
Of course the market is rigged by the corrupting banksters, it is a private party and no one else is invited. Ha. Ha. What else is new?
The light at the end of the tunnel is your life and reality slipping away. Ha. Ha.
Actually, non-reality is losing its grip.
I think that if one steps back far enough the picture is easy to see. Less and less people are volunteering to be involved in a failing/corrupt/dying system. All the talking-heads depend on there being an audience; they have to resort to attacking the very system in order to acquire an audience, even though doing so might assist in killing the system. If it sounds like a downward death spiral it's because it is. Best is to get as far away as you can...
It's very simple,,, O'Brien is O'Brien
I'm sorry, but everybody out there knows the market has been and always will be rigged. If it's not HFT and quote stuffing it's inside information. Somebody somewhere will always find and edge, and this whole discussion is nothing but a distraction.
the fed is in on it. they time announcements to benefit the big banks. they contradict themselves to generate trading volume. they time qe so the banks can prop trade. don't get me started on what they do in the bond and fx markets. the rigging goes all the way to the top.
There is no doubt the fed is in on it. They wanted the HFT to take place in order to prop up the market with their constant churning. Now that they have systems in place to allow the markets to collapse they have a fall guy.
when the squid was doing it they had to look the other way. now that the squid supposedly quit prop trading themselves hft is just cutting into their profits by reducing actual trading volume because everybody knows it's rigged. the thing is even if they crash the market it won't do much to increase long term trading volume because everybody knows whether it goes up or down it's still rigged. Besides, most institutional shareholders wouldn't sell their stock even if the end of the world was coming.
ALL the dice are loaded. AND, you can't roll 'em unless you're loaded.
(5 drink minimum)
It's "all of the above" sort of answer here in terms of rigging. The riskless trade. Now turned into a free-for-all. Big bankers raping the system in every way possible.
Easy to see it too Buzz. Watch the FX majors through the order accumulation phase, the luring in of speculators, then watch for the timed anouncement to coincide with the profit release phase. Over and over and over.
Whoa! There's a man behind the curtain! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
And so we are allowed to talk about the "curtain." So... it's what it will be for those participating: curtains.
And, as Dr. Paul Craig Roberts has been saying for quite some time, it's all about trying to save the USD's position as world's reserve currency. Here's PCR's latest on teh Fed's activities:
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/03/31/federal-reserve-integrity/
I totally agree, the HFT issue is a red herring to distract us from the obvious crimes of misrepresenting MBS, LIBOR rigging and FX rigging.
Fuck all those people on the show. The hosts are absolutely worthless, and there wasn't anyone on that panel I would trust. They are all parasites feeding off of the host, and that host is your income tax dollars in hock to the Federal Reserve.
Re-work the poll:
Who looks more like the prototpyical liar, Katsuyama or O'Brien?
Hands down to any layman who watches human interaction and facial expressions, the answer is clearly O'Brien. I've never seen him before and I would bet money that he is a cronic lying mofo.
Add to that the reaction of the brokers in the background and you know the answer to who is telling the truth. Those unfiltered moments of raw emotion reveal the truth of the matter more clearly than anything else.
And, man, did that woman broadcaster struggle to keep hidden her unhappy-with-Katsuyama-for-ruining-the-status-quo face!
"Hands down to any layman who watches human interaction and facial expressions, the answer is clearly O'Brien."
Well, that's the desired appearance, no?
I think that it's all about who has more confidence in their support holding up. And as many others here have noted, don't assume that Katsuyama is necessarily what he seems: he might just be a whole lot more confident because TPTB have his back; it's possible that TPTB could change stripes, but I'm not banking on it...
Video is down now.
The video is fine on my computer.
"Yes it is." - NSA
You knew, but what about your fiducery responsibilities? old people will want to know.
BATS CEO is scum.
I don't know if he is or not, but he struck me that way too.
BATS CEO is another psychopath attracted to the money and power on Wall Street. We're gonna have to deal with this subspecies sooner or later.
Deflation = 30 upcoming years of screaming fights, bankrupcies, lawsuits, debt repudiations, congressional hearings ...
I'd like to say that it'll be cheap entertainment, but something tells me...
I was fortunate enough to see the whole thing live.
Epic stuff, easily the best on CNBS in years, and thankfully, no Kramer.
Wake me whan the crash starts. I do not want to miss that but I'm tired of waiting.
Re: Wake me whan the crash starts.
Two years. In Sacramento today, there was a full page advertisement about: "how to get rich flipping houses". The first full-page one I've seen since before the last crash.
Plus, a new RV dealer opened up.
Two years...
House flipping here in Florida has been cranking up for over a year now. Starting to make the news more and more.
Amazing.
The Wall Street apparatus should be utterly destroyed, it's abusers and owners guillotined.
All that needs to be done is for people to walk away.
Whats the difference? The Fed Chair can sit in front of congress and tell the panel "pound sand" on where $16 Tril + went, but yet this skimming trick is all the talk...
Usual bullshit, fuckers make trillions then step back with their hands in the air giving their best Nixon imitation.
I wish Katsuyama would just cut to the chase and ask that desperate SOB - Do some firms get information before the market as a whole? Why is that ok in a supposedly free and fair market? There is no way to answer that question and not look ridiculous
Didnt you hear ? Sue H. answered that one. It is a market edge like everything else.
May be a thief who sleeps day time and steals at night has an edge over the victim since he steals while the victim is asleep. The victim is to blame for not staying awake.
I'd like to give you more up-votes!
Entertaining indeed.
The problem isnt just HFT though is it? Since the start of this recovery, erm, recession, excuse me, fucking out-right robbery, is that HFT is just another symptom of the overall problem. Out-right criminal, endemic, nation wide, covers every aspect of your continuing life, theft, of anything not nailed down these criminaly insane bastards can thieve all started, aided and abetted by the fraud machine itself, the FED.
Everything else, including trades at the speed of 1/10,000 of a second is the distraction we so richly deserve, eh?
Trades at 1/10,000 of a second??? You any idea how hard that is for a normal off the street bloke to wrap his head round then?
No?
Think about it. This is beyond corrupt, fuck me sideways, I cannot think of anything, any word to describe the behaviour of these fraudsters, they dont deserve jail, they deserve torture, a fucking lifetime of it.
Upvote for being just pure poetry...
Always nice to see you around I96! Hope all is well over there on the other side of the pond.
Still chugging along Centreline, everythings still the same here, including the fucking appalingly shite weather.
Its rained for five bastard days while London is basking in sunshine. The fuckers must be able to fuck on with the weather and put us Northerners in a right strop.
Still, never mind, with any luck as the warmer weather starts up, we might start hanging the paedophile fuckers froms from lamposts.
One lives in hope eh? Best of wishes mate.
96
So, y'all are counting on Piers to come home, huh?
I read over at the Popular Mechanics, it's 8 to 12 trades a nanoseconcd, depending on the location of the HFT supercomputer; hooked up to its direct line to the exchange computer.
Fiber Optic is wonderful.
The ENTIRE sytem is a fraud because it's based on everyone believing that there can be perpetual growth on a finite planet. It's EXACTLY the notion of "hold out hope and all will be fine."
Pretty sure William O'Brien is a Class A prick.
Neither he or his handlers care. And, it seems that people think it's OK if one is a prick if they're rich (because we "all" wish to be rich).
EPIC!! O Brien got his Irish up and lost badly. There will be hearings.
Bets on whether he has a job tomorrow?
More importantly, will he be receiving a visit from the Feds?
Coming in to close down this parlor trick, as instructed by TPTB.
He looks Irish? Really?
no. a plastic paddy
Of course there will be hearings.
Checks are being cut, tonight.
Hearings held.
Stern letters from chair of hearings to follow.
To all HFt's, "Please do a better job of furnishing liquidity".
HFT is only illegal in the methods used to trade. Quote stuffing is illegal. Front running is illegal. Using "special order types" hidden from other investors is illegal. Putting in 100s of thousands of orders per second and cancelling them (no intention of ever filling), then repeat over and over is illegal. Putting in false large orders to try to move the market is illegal. Reg NMS covers most of this, other laws already on the books cover the rest.
The real issue for HFT is they have no real "edge" other than doing the above. Take that away and there is no real strategy for the most part.
The bigger issue is changing to penny increments got rid of market makers. HFT trading got rid of most of the rest of the liquidity providers over the years. Get rid of HFT and 60-70% of the volume in the market is gone - that is ripe for a crash on any event as the real lack of liquidity would be evident to everyone. Right now its masked by all the churning back and forth.
Regulators are not sure what to do. The exchanges now make 40% (if memory serves me correctly) of their revenue from "fees" from HFT. Take that away again and it creates additional problems. Had the regulators done their job in the first place it would have never gotten to this point.
Really depends on what the meaning of "illegal" is, no?
Remember, there are two sets of laws... (they are "rich" and you/we are not- guess which set of laws you/we get?)
Get rid of HFT and 60-70% of the volume in the market is gone - that is ripe for a crash on any event as the real lack of liquidity would be evident to everyone. Right now its masked by all the churning back and forth.
*
This is what the lobbyists told WASH-DC (AIPAC CONGRESS) weeks ago, that if you kill HFT, then you terminate wall street liquidity, which means game-over for WASH-DC POLITICAL Blood (CASH).
This HFT debate is all for show, but there is an agenda.
"The exchanges now make 40%...of their revenue 'fees' from HFT."
Yup, and the HFT houses pass that on to their "customers".
"Had the regulators done their job in the first place it would have never gotten to this point."
Yup #2; and I'd bet that's why so many in the S.E.C. used to work on Wall Street.
Revolving doors, dark pools, high stakes legerdemain and skullduggery.
Katsuyama at 67% now; let's make it 70% or higher and see if CNBC airs the results.
Hey CNBC, the markets are rigged, and I have NO TRUST. Smoke it.
Don't forget to vote on the link above. ZH readers could drive the poll to 75% because we are the most interested readers.
Hey CNBC, the markets are rigged, and I have NO TRUST. Smoke it.
And with every point O'Brien's coffin gets another nail. At 0% O'Brien get's the last place prize, a nailgun.
I don't know much about BATS & HFTs & Fiber Optic Cables.
However, I do know a useless dickhead when I see one, and in O'Brien I spy one.
bosch - yeah. agreed. except we are beholden to him. and up until now - he's been winning big time.
No one can sling mud like an american.
Only sane person there was Katsuyama
Not so sure if Katsuyama was so much sane as confident. And, given that it's all about confidence in the System I'd think that perhaps TPTB aer backing him (in which case one can question whether any of this can remotely be seen as falling under the heading of "sane").
Katsuyama&Snowden, finest nice-boy actors brought to the box in a long time,...
When ZIO MSM brings out this shit, and they fill the MSM to the MAX, ... you know there is an agenda.
My bet is that Katsuyama IEX will get the 100% ownership of computerized trading, courtesy of OBAMA 'cleaning up Wall Street',
Truth is always stranger than fiction in ZIO-Land.
Hey man, it wont matter if you got filled a penny above theoretical price because at the end of the month the underlying will be up a few percent and you will be up lots more money than the computer scalped while facilitating your order.
The only way you can lose in this market is to sell it short. Just buy everything, preferably on a dip, net net you cant lose. Cant wait for a dip? Buy the all time highs, we will make new ones tomorrow, next week at the latest.
Douchebaggery is an American art form.
CNBC is fucking shit.
That fucking windbag rube on the right - O'Brien I think - needs a hatchet in the face. Call Jason, NOW!!!!
So, the cat's out the bag ...in public now!
An aside: OBrien... cut back on the coke buddy. That shit is going to kill you!
The market was always rigged. My dear friends in USA government also help with the rigging. Suck it 'merica!
Bitcoin will prevail
Fonestar, it appears you've put on a bit of weight...
Are US debates often run this way? This is horrible....
Well, it wasn't really a debate. More so it was a bunch of folks plugging shit...
God, I hope this O'Brien dude has a key to the roof of his building.
Jump for freedom!
I though the whole coke-head maniac investor thing went out of style the 80's?
Never goes out of style in bankster territory.
You'd need to have Tiger Blood(tm) to consume enough coke to survive & still compete against the HFT bots.
might as well add something new to the discussion...
the amounts in which 'things' are traded is a reflection of the vunerability of the system to shock. i.e.: .01 to.001 to .0001 to .oooetc
think of crystallization.
as the fight for the tinier and tinier grows, the less energy is needed to break that which is forming.
lock ups, flash crashes, etc, which recently have been relatively contained, only reflect the current equilibrium of programming.
the slightest next edge will shatter though the 1/10000 of a penny barrier and shatter the crystalline entity commonly refereed to as 'the markets'.
just my 2 cents worth.
or, as they say in the penny stock business, a 20,000 level event comment.
:)
Easy enough to encapsulate with just this: Entropy is a bitch.
When a grow-or-die system can no longer eek out growth it, well...
And if one needs a poster for this:
Itochu Writes Down Most of Samson Investment as Shale Bet Sourshttp://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-02/itochu-writes-down-most-of-sams...
The development of shale, which involves extracting hydrocarbons from rock formations through chemical injections, has slapped investors with writedowns in the last two years after U.S. gas prices fell to their lowest level in more than a decade in April 2012. BHP Billiton Ltd., the world’s largest mining company, in August 2012 announced a $2.8 billion writedown of its U.S. shale gas assets.
Itochu joined a KKR & Co.-led purchase of most of Tulsa, Oklahoma-based Samson as part of the biggest leveraged buyout in the oil and gas production industry, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. It is also Itochu’s third-largest acquisition in raw materials.
Desperation. The flashing red lights should be obvious: When we're down to trying to eek out growth in shit like shale. Consolidations, larger and larger partnerships, all glowing red...
The Irish guy splashing about in a puddle of his own urine has 8% of the votes?
This poll is rigged!
Katsuyama and Lewis do a pretty good job, and make the point that the only "solution" needed is for the markets to decide to run themselves honestly.
Expect nine figure bribes in the background.
Honestly?
Nature is rife with deception, it's a key survival tool. Humans are OF nature.
The odds of a unicorn popping up are greater than in expecting humans to create and maintain an "honest" system. Fuck, we can't even face the FACT that we're all operating on an impossible premise: perpetual growth on a finite planet.
I really do understand the desire. I just don't place the probability very high.
the fact that you are a fucking thief should not be hidden, excused, or pretend to be stupid by.....
the fact that it is ONE PENNY...... (multyplied by thousands or more)
fuck the thieves
O Brien sold more books than Michael Lewis! What a dope.
The son got sent home from school today folks, hes 13, turns out him and a young girl in his class have been playing 'Doctors and Nurses'.
The girls father came round to have a word, and I explained, 'Its just natural that these young hormone filled kids want to experiment with each other isnt it?'.
He fucking said, 'Fuck off son, hes taken my daughters appendix out!!'.
Smile and wave boys, smile and fucking wave.
:-)
Thanks for the chuckle.
I can remember playing doctor in the first grade, oh boy can I remember that !!! I was into labiaplasties back then, but now I like em large !!!
yeah, but who needs HFT's when we have Jim Cramer?
And, well, everyone likes clowns, no?
Is Sue Herrera actually alive?
Real question is..??? Who the fuck still puts their money in the "stock market"? Good luck with all of that. Suckas gonna be suckas I guess.
Everyone is mostly tied to the sinking ship that is the market, in one way or another.
I don't own any stocks (or hold any). I don't own any shares of mutual funds. I have a personal IRA, but that's because I'm still waiting for the time to pull it: it's under my direct control.
However... lots of shit around be has feeding tubes connected, and when those tubes are not serviced I'm quite sure that I'll be affected. The System is everywhere. Best hope is to only get hit by a small branch when the thing falls.
So you are saying that the general sheeple should get faster processors and internet connections to beat the delay and the lag in getting those " Direct Feeds"
when the obrien guy keeps shoving his fingers in katsuyama's face why doesn't katsuyama punch him out?