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Watch As HFT Debate Devolves Into Epic Screamfest In Milliseconds
The clearly agitated BATS CEO came out swinging, blasting Katsuyama and Lewis "Shame On You," for apparently telling the truth of what occurs in the stock 'market and letting everyone in on it'. The tension grows when he presses Katsuyama on whether he really believes it is rigged... who then erupts "I believe the markets are rigged.. and that you are a part of the rigging." Then the gloves come off "you wanna do this, let's do this!" and then it got worse (or better)...
Just the first 3 minute round in this epic clip is worth the price of admission (and note the floor traders cheers in the background)... but to watch the status quo crushed under the awesome honesty of reality as this is all exposed, watch on...
And here's the highlights...
Who won? (based on CNBC's own ongoing poll - link)
Things escalated a little for O'Brien (as 3 hours later)...
As a gentle reminder of why the BATS CEO is upset to start with...
How a rogue algo crushed the BATS IPO
In Nanex' own words:
Start at line 192 -- these weren't stale quotes from Nasdaq by any means. These were highly accurate and precisely updated quotes from a sophisticated algorithm programmed to take BATS's price to 0. You can see the BATS trades just before the algo on Nasdaq starts up. In other words, after the BATS trades print, everything is fine (except of course for BATS' system). Nasdaq's system is just fine. So is CQS (the SIP). That algo did its job with the precision of a master watch maker.
The data and charts make this abundantly clear. The trade(s) that shut down Apple would be considered stale/bad quotes. But not those 500+ trades on Nasdaq.
Nanex' verdict:
It had to be someone who's machines are directly connected to Nasdaq because they used Intermarket Sweep Order orders.
And visually:
Look at the timing! There are many quotes lasting less than 1/10,000 of a second in there! (10 quotes/millisecond). And note the almost perfect 45 degree line in log-scaled blue line below.
Had to be from same algo. Way too perfect. Way. Too. Perfect.
If BATS' system hadn't failed, this algo would have likely been obscured.
Alas, BATS did fail, and the result was March 2012's epic embarrassment for BATS which already cost the CEO his chairmanship, and the firm hundreds of millions in fresh equity, but also which destroyed any hope that the retail investor may be coming back to what is now a permanently and terminally broken market.
And with this occurring now, it is unlikley O'Brien will ever get it back...
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foxenburg - and that is why (katsuyama) he wins. because he knows he is a winner and ultimately just and has the confidence not bend to the bullies. our society is based around bullies. kardashdians declaring their big fat ugly asses are desired. bernake declaring he knows better than everyone else and his decisions are fiat and not to be questioned. jamie dimon knows why he makes more money than you do.
bush 2 and weapons of mass destruction. big bad bama and don't even get me started. who stands up to these guys?
anybody seen jonnie corzine lately?
did you see sashtomi of bitcoin fold? yeah. it was him. sure - big nsa and others were behind it - but he did their bidding. no balls. flopped, folded.
the guy has katsuyama has courage. he came, he saw, he put something together that apparently works.
"the guy has katsuyama has courage. he came, he saw, he put something together that apparently works."
And, as TPTB ALWAYS do, will be co-opted.
Tyler - total distraction as far as I'm concerned - other than the fact the thieves are stealing billions per year as Lewis speaks/writes about.
Although not a small amount of thievery, the entire structure is not to provide liquidity or price discovery (as you know), it is being used to keep the "indices" propped for the big payoff, and it is not for the common man.
IMO, anyone in the paper/electronic markets are going to be so buttfucked that they will literaly pass away after seeing what will eventually happen to their saving/bank/IRA/401k/annuities etc....
For anyone asleep, this book and interviews should be fair warning - but not about getting skimmed, but rather "skinned".
It's all a big floundering fish, flopping on the deck. It's got no chance of survival unless it can escape the boat; and in this case the boat is WAY big.
They're all just playing the game until it all runs out on them. The growth machine is done out of growth. All that is left now is the appearance of growth via attrition. I'd said it several years ago (since my early days here on ZH) that it'll come down to the clash of the titans, and when there is only one titan left, then what (where is the illusion of growth to come from)? As each days passes and the participation rates drops it becomes clearer and clearer that this thing is heading toward a total crash, as it can run no other course (being that it's a grow-or-die system).
In the end it's all about survival. These folks are buying days through pitching all of this shit, it's all they know to do. Do they realize that one day it won't work for them? For sure O'Brien is starting to sense it...
O'brien, rot in hell you greedy piece of shit!
Front running is still front running even if you do it in fractional milliseconds.
O' Brien loves the sound of his own voice and is what's known in the industry as a lieing fucktard.
O'brien said that they take the risk out of the market and you don't have to worry about a ....say a Bear Stearns......and it's not a zero sum game, we can all win....
WTF ? ? ? Does he really believe his own BS ?
Expecting that risk can be taken out of the system (which is WAY complicated and unpredictable, not to mention that it's predicated on an entirely flawed premise) is like expecting unicorns to appear.
For once I wish that folks would just slam the yapping cold silent and ask the question: "what does that term mean?" ("taking risk out of the system" and other such phrases that we just have all come to expect)
The wolves are eating each other now. For those of us that lived to see this, this is glorious
Grandma: "What a big mouth you have"
Obama: Let's have Holder look into this HFT thing.
His staff: He's busy investigating Benghazi, uh... no he's not.
His staff: He's busy investigating Fast and Furious, uh... maybe not.
His staff: He's busy investigating the IRS, uh, no.
His staff: He's busy enforcing illegal immigration, uh.....no, he's not doing that either.
His Staff: He must be looking into voter fraud, yeah....uh...no. Not that either.
His Staff: I know!!! He's busy abolishing State's Rights!!! Yeah, that's it. He's too busy for HFT!!
Obama: Well at least have him make sure none of our supporters get caught up in this.
Same as it ever was...
This is how ALL empires end. It's a chain of events put together out of the incessant need to grow.
This is rear-view-mirror shit. The collapse started quite some time ago: the begining of the obvious end was in 1971.
O'Bitch been owned
The traders on the floor were applauding Katsuyama when he said it was rigged.
That's all I need to know.
Bill O'Brian's performance was worse than Hillary at a Benghazi hearing. He never even made a real argument , just name calling and speaking over people. I guess cause there is no argument he could have made. HFT's are there to suck money out of the market, how is that adding liquidity? Katsuyama calmly made valid points and seemed like someone who might be worth doing business through.
TPTB NEED a working system...
BTW - Benghazi was covered up in order to cover up the US crimes in Libya: no one wants this info out; the GOP plays it because it gets them votes- but make no mistake about it, they are in no way apologetic for the real crimes against the people of Libya. NEVER was it about this. It was always about trying to finger blame (all really about "distraction") on the "other party" (commonplace) on security failures (even though it was in all of TPTB's interest for what Stevens knew to find its way to Davey's Locker). You have to clear your mind in order to be able to see though all the smoke out there: just like this HFT stuff is just a distraction form the fact that the ship is going down (and TPTB are desperately trying to keep from getting their feet wet, even if it means that the rest of us become mops).
Bill basicly confesses to manipulating the market.
Only for the pennies (x trillions of trades).
Well... a penny earned is...
Thankfully for the HFT assholes, the majority of Americans don't own stocks nor care about the god damn market.
And the markets are rigged. The luxury cars that these guys drive prove that shit.
O'Brien: "It's not a ZERO SUM game."
Bullshit. It's gambling. ALL gambling is a negative sum game UNLESS you are have a gentleman's edge (and it still is even if you do; even blackjack card counters are at the mercy of thed deck, for example) or if you are cheating.
The best bet is qute often, the one you don't make. Want to win money 100% of the time? Don't sit down and play.
"Is it safe for one to invest in the stock market?"
Unless you have the bankroll: no. If you do? It can be very lucrative; especially during this era of Fed QE4EVA. But you need to know when to get out (and if SHTF, what to convert the fiat into once it takes the USD down with it).
BTW, no one won this debate. We are all stupider for having heard it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0
If it all really fails then no haven exists. Precious metals will buy necessities perhaps for a while. Necessities, however, will be worth more than god. I honestly think we may experience this upheaval soon.
Too many things we live/witness/experience today are unsustainable. The way we eat, drink, commute, etc. are growing evermore unsustainable. Options are narrowing for 97% of America.
If it weren't for the welfare state then war on the streets would already be a reality. I think that time is still closer than we think. The global chess game has our number. When the dollar sinks then we sink with it.
Sure, we will recover over time (and maybe even learn a lesson?) but the suffering throughout such a period is nothing short of historic. Times have changed. We are weak. We are spoiled.
We couldn't wipe our collective asses without toilet paper on a roll. Think about it.
Long corn cobs...Really long corn cobs...
WOW lot's of TRUTHINESS on ZH today,.. yep nobody is smarter for having heard this MSM circus act.
The Asian IEX guy reminds me of SNOWDEN he is an orchestrated 'class act' the other's are all trained monkeys to make their argument look poor.
The walk away from this is that the IEX the NSA/CIA front company for online MARKET trading is the only honest group, and all else should be banned.
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When you see a circus or hear an orchestra look for a conductor/ring-master, when ZH posts like 8+ OP's all in one day all on the HFT look towards Tel-Aviv.
"Thankfully for the HFT assholes, the majority of Americans don't own stocks nor care about the god damn market. "
Au contraire!
Pensions and other retirement funds are tied up in all this shit. And when one looks at the Big Picture one finds that this is quite telling: the big battle is now down to who can take more market share of these funds- NONE of it is about creating anything for the future; it's about TPTB and their group of talking-heads continuing to take cuts from the future.
Yeah. True. The Pension Funds and other Retirement Funds are caught up in the bullshit.
But most Americans will not connect the dots...just like the American to whom you responded.
Private banks being allowed to create the public "money" supply out of nothing as debts is the government enforced FRAUD which is the foundation of the entire "market!" Electronics has enabled speeding up that FRAUD by many orders of magnitude, which has amplified that FRAUD to more astronomically amplified sizes. Civilization has always been controlled by backing up lies with violence, which has resulted in every decision being made through that process of selecting for those who were the best at backing up deceits with destruction to prevail in directing what civilization actually did. From an objective point of view, controlling civilization with huge lies drives that civilization to behave in ways which become more and more criminally insane.
Technologies becoming trillions of times more capable are therefore ending up enabling civilization to become trillions of times more criminally insane. The foundation of our economic system is FRAUD, enforced by governments, that are effectively controlled by the best organized and biggest gangsters, the banksters, who are constantly able to get legalized more lies, and have those backed up by more legalized violence, which are more able to act with overwhelming evil deliberate ignorance towards their successfully doing that, which is driving irreconcilable social polarization, as well as runaway destruction of the natural world.
Tragically, there is nothing outside of the political marketplace which is able to change the economic marketplace from being dominated by the those systems of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, which are at the foundation of the entire political economy. The only thing that is happening is that those criminally insane systems are being pumped up at an exponentially accelerating rate by technologies which have literally become trillions of times more powerful. All markets are inherently organized systems of lies, operating robberies. However, the controlled opposition against the established ways that those markets are rigged, and fundamentally fraudulent, continues to promote the same old-fashioned false fundamental dichotomies and related impossible ideals about how to improve those markets, to make them become more "fair," as Michael Lewis concluded in this video.
It would take profound intellectual scientific revolutions in the basic ways that we think, which would apply to the ways that we think about political economy, in order for human monetary systems, which are based on measurement backed by murder, to be better reconciled with their own realities regarding that, rather than continue to be runaway triumphs of technologically advanced FRAUDS, backed by force, which are able to operate through evil deliberate ignorance, while they bury everything that they are actually are doing deeper and deeper under the biggest bullies' bullshit stories about themselves.
Human civilization operates as a general energy system, inside of the general energy system of the natural environment, however, human history has created a civilization which has enabled itself to operate its death controls through the maximum possible deceits, and it debt controls through the maximum possible frauds. Electronic technologies have primarily been employed to amplify those basic situations many orders of magnitude. The REALITIES have become globalized electronic frauds, backed by atomic bombs. HFT is merely one of the superficial symbolic ways that the basic PROBLEMS are being expressed. However, the deeper problems were built right into the currently established philosophy of science regarding thermodynamics and information theory, such as what enabled that science to engineer the technologies which made possible the HFT or computerized algorithmic trading activities, through an increasingly electronically operating "market."
The most important thing that has been "RIGGED" is that way that we think. The biggest bullies' bullshit world view has dominated the philosophy of science, so that the ways that we think about power and information are profoundly BACKWARDS. There are many different levels upon which one can reflect upon that PROBLEM. On one level, one can recognized that the "market" is dominated by governments being the biggest form of organized crime, controlled by the best organized gangs of criminals. However, there are much more profound, deeper levels of radical truth to attempt to approach than that!
HFT is an expression of the growing contradictions between a civilization which discovers relatively more scientific truths, which enable technologies, to be applied through social pyramid systems based on their triumphant history of enforcing frauds. The more that those contradictions grow, the more that we theoretically "need" and "should" go through profound paradigm shifts in the most basic philosophy of science regarding energy systems, to recognize the degree to which we inverted the meaning of the entropy equations, by inserting an arbitrary minus sign into them, has also inverted and thereby perverted our general understanding of all energy systems.
A better understanding of how and why governments have legalized and enforced financial frauds requires an even more profound paradigm shift in the ways that we appreciate the degree to which the dominance of the biggest bullies' bullshit social stories being backwards has resulted in almost everything we think becoming backwards. As long as we continue to take for granted the biggest mistakes in the ways we think, then we must continue to utterly fail to develop "fairer" markets, but rather, will allow the already "rigged" markets to automatically become more criminally insane, at an exponentially accelerating rate, as they have been doing.
You had me with the first sentence.... Nice Job A+ and a vote up
I stopped reading after the first sentence, whats the point right. I feel like the teacher who stopped reading the student's essay before his rant.
Yeah, 1stepcloser, my first sentence is the central social fact that the vast majority of people do not understand, because they have been conditioned to not want to understand. As the saying goes: "Watch out for the first step!"
You are right that pretty well everything else that I wrote after that first summarizing sentence is mostly a personal rant than makes no practical difference, since the basic realization that private banks are making "money" out of nothing, while governments force everyone else to accept that fraud, is SO OUTRAGEOUS, but still continues, because, as anyone who has seriously tried knows, the vast majority of people continue believing in a common sense kind of notion that there is a principle operating which is Conservation of Money, and they tend to be unable to imagine that private banks are simply making their "money" out of nothing, as debts.
While people like Ron Paul have been waking up millions more people about those basic social facts, so far, there is still too small of percentage of people who get it! The deeper problem is that in order to fully understand that FRAUD, one has to go through an entire set of paradigm shifts about how politics really works, which, so far, too few people have done. Mostly, "Watch out for that First Step," because most people have not taken it, because they do not want to take it!
Even IF enough people knew and cared, they would still be faced with the Catch 22 practical political problems presented in this presentation:
http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_the_republic_...
Even IF enough people woke up enough, how could they do anything politically practical to compete with people who have been making billions and billions of dollars of personal profits from operating inside of the already established systems? In the case of HFT, those who were able to make billions and billions of dollars from doing that are therefore now so far above those who did not, in the ability to fund the political processes, that merely waking up to the social facts still does not provide any practical political ways to do anything about that. The enormous and growing inequality between the topmost 0.01% of the population, and everyone else, is stuck in a vicious spiral of the domination of the funding of the political processes driving that to almost automatically get worse, faster ... while nobody else has any realistic way to compete inside of that already achieved level of wealth inequality.
INDEED, WATCH OUT FOR THAT FIRST STEP! From the point of view of practical political possibilities, our society is already terminally sick and insane, because the runaway triumphs of legalized frauds have created a tiny group of extremely wealthy people, who can reinvest enough of their profits from those legal frauds to be able to continue to overwhelmingly dominate the funding of the political processes!
RM 99% of the BOT's on ZH, daily re-inforce the idea that FED money is backed by DEBT, that it just isn't created for free.
That the GUBMINT taxes people to pay its bills, I think only 1-3 people on ZH understand that FED-RES pulls FIAT out of its ARSE and funds the entire worlds casinos.
Maybe it just takes years of studying this shit to see the light.
Go ahead and down vote all you bot's, but its the truth CUZ you daily talk about DEBT, and other BULLSHIT like STOCK,...
FED creates FIAT, and the MARKETS launder the FIAT and make it appear as WEALTH. That's all you need to know, how they do it (HFT) is irrelevant.
Radical Marijuana...
This was actually the most important line in your initial response and the Gem that was missed by those whom refused to read the "required material"...
The most important thing that has been "RIGGED" is that way that we think.
They want to keep it this way.
I always go back to the Cass Sunstein article a few weeks ago here on ZH,
CASS SUNSTEIN in 2007, wrote down how he was going to control the internet, and tax bad thought.
But what they didn't explain, is how they were going to control those thoughts.
Make NO mistake that all left-right, top-bottom, and good-bad on the internet is manufactured thought,
Any unique or non-approved oppositional idea, and you get made invisible on google, or deleted banned in forums,... absolute control is here.
RM is right, what is rigged is your mind.
The USD is covered in HUMAN BLOOD, it is a currency of MURDER, and it is created by nothing for nothing to INFINITY.
But like all MAFIA they need to LEGITIMIZE their crimes,
So they create the MYTHOLOGY of HFT to create the image in the mind that WEALTH is created in NYC by wall-street, using fancy computers,...
But RM is right, ... its all just a dog&pony show; to mind fuck you so that you feel good about holding your USD.
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The FED creates FIAT, and backdoors it to WALL-STREET, HFT or any computerized-trading generates zillions of fake-trades to wash-rinse the trillions floating into the system, where they then flow to the PTB.
I agree.
Yes, fraud. Because, humans are deceptive; I just ain't thinking that fraud can be removed (as though it's something external).
HFT is, as noted, a technological tool. It's all intended to, as O'Brien puts it (and I agree with him on this point [but only on the point itself]), increase efficiencies. There's always spillage across the "legal" line, but the line is often intentionally made blurry (because we know that more regulations aren't needed! </parital sarc>); some get caught just a little to far across it, while the bulk ride right on the line. And keep in mind that these folks (programmers, talking-heads, CEOs of trading entities) are tools of TPTB. The general direction (which is pretty clear) is still attained despite any line crossings.
The people that O'Brien has represented/catered to are likely to make their money with or without him, with or without his technology and uses of it. And, really, in the end it matters little. Those in power do have a vested interest in the game continuing. And I suspect that it's quite possible that some may actually believe that their edge is used to maintain the system (to trade on things that they believe are necessary, however they see it).
Madoff was convicted because he fucked over the wealthy, not really because of fraud: the fraud was going on for some time.
In a way this all kind of places us at our true animal levels. Maximum deception to survive. Greater sensitivities to change. It seems insane because, as animals, it doesn't make sense to find our animal selves here in this virtually constructed world.
Again, one must address all that we do in the context of being built upon the false premise that there can be perpetual growth on a finite planet. If one dismisses this premise then ANYTHING can be made to look rational, and we can go insane trying to figure out why the rational doesn't make sense.
Madoff was convicted because he fucked over the wealthy, not really because of fraud: the fraud was going on for some time.
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MADOFF FUCKED THE TRIBE, and HE FUCKED MAJOR MSM TRIBAL KING-PIN's ... MADOFF thought by paying off the LIKUD NEO-ZIO-CON tribe, he could fuck the LEFT wing tribe to shit, ... he was proven wrong, some of the left have friends in Law Enforcement.
FUCKING the GOYIM is GOOD, FUCKING the TRIBE will get you sent to PRISON.
Just like Trading in human flesh, or herion or cocaine, USD is GOOD, EURO/YUAN is BAD. CIA will turn its EYE so long as you sell child sex slaves ( or heroin/cocaine ) for USD, but ask for EUROS and they'll bust your ass.
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Can't really blame Madoff, he went were the money was, sort of like why bank robbers rob banks. Madoff knew who had money, but hell he got away with it for 15+ years, as you all know the real problem was the PONZI liquidity squeeze not unlike MT-GOX.
Had MADOFF or MF-GLOBAL not been Cash squeezed they would still be around.
Not all TRIBAL leaders are equal, and some MORE equal than others, .. given how much SOROS is hated by the LIKUD fuckwits, its amazing they haven't planted child porn in his toilet.
The CNBC brain trust wants you to believe that premeditated theft is a competitive advantage. Using the same reasoning Sue, trading on insider information yields a competitive advantage. That bloated pig needs to retire. She is crazy.
Finally somebody starts telling the truth. Only honest guy on earth in the last 2000 years was Jesus Christ. Kudos to Katsuyaman (sp).
kudos to katsuyaman? where are the satoshi fans all of a sudden? he was a hell of a lot of fun.
Wonderful stuff really! I love to see the reactions of the criminal class when their scams become even a little bit exposed to the public. In fact, the HFT community used the trading system to manufacture a theft machine that was legal and profitable beyond their wildest dreams. Able to become the hidden agents through which all market activity must go through, to be able to front run all trading activity through the use of science, maths of the highest order and talented computer scientists. This is perhaps the logical result of a social and economic system wherein the ability to manipulate and control every aspect of the market systems is considered the highest function of the 2014 financial elites. We have seen scam after scam created by the great minds of finance, backed up by government protection against law and regulation. Set free from any controls, the financial elites have created housing scams, silver and gold manipulations, the use of ZIRP trillions to manipulate the markets, and finally, the ultimate scam, hidden behind a curtain of silence and government protection, the wondes of modern computer science have been set free to create a giant Skimming Operation that front runs every traders attempt to buy and sell in a free and fair market place of competition. Instead, the nano second world of front running means the elties know every order and every sell order BEFORE they can be acted upon, the automatic nano second maipulation of price means the elite skimmers are able to take their share from every market activity. These people sit and a criminal enterprise of robbers, who are able to steal from every honest man on earth who thinks the markets are capitalist and open to all who seek to speculate or raise capital for productive enterprise.
These elites are the same ones who tell average Americans, to work for less, to work longer hours, to give up any job security, to compete with Chinese labor on a one to one basis. The take needed cuts to education, to Social Security to Meidcare. To accept the end of pensions systems in return for a chance to invest in their rigged fake liar marketplace, where they can skim every honest man's attempt to build an investment portfolio. These same elites scream for more war, they demand our patriotic sons and daughters fight for Glodman's profit potential in Ukraine, In Iraq, In Yemen, In Pakistan, In Afghanistan, In Seriba, In Georgia, In Africa and now the eitles demand war on China. They use their media to sell Americans ont he idea that our people's need to fight and die all across the globe to sell the market manipulation and imperial police states. This we are told is our Patriotic Duty as true Americans. CNN howls like mad dogs for Americna kids to invade Crimea and liberate it's economic potential for Goldman and JPM. After all, Crimea is an America national interest. War of liberation is needed to put missile bases across the Crimea and to put NATO navies in Sevastopol. All this freedom spreading is our duty as Americans, once the freedom has been spreadm then Goldman and JPM can manipulate the markets there, import slave labor to turn the Crimea more multi cultural and establish a corporate dictatorship of cops, armies, secret police, drones, cameras, SWAT teams, Military Death Squads that answer only to Obama, NGO's staffed with CIA and Zionest puppet masters. We as Americans have to do the heavy lifting as patriots in oder to free the world for our Masters of the Universe to run their markets and manipulate their peoples.
I urge Americans to watch CNN and FIX, listen to NPR, follow their orders and be true patriots of America. Don't be a traitor, do as CNN/FOX and NPR command. Wave the flag and inavde Ukraine, it is our duty as Americans to liberate the place.
Again, the NSA has failed to save the common investor from financial terrorists.
Did the NSA get its cut?
And that, Detective, is the right question.
In reply to Jack Burton: I agree entirely with your prospective and would also like to add that the current CNBC poll (vote-link above) indicates that most people are aware that the stock market is fraudulently rigged.
O’Brien 6%
Katsuyama 66%
No one won—investors lost. 18%
That would be 84% total vote of lack of confidence.
American people are not as brainwashed stupid as they would like.
Who ever she is Jack, she's pretty.
Not positive but I believe the picture is of a woman who declared a nuclear attack killing millions of people was the solution in the Ukranian-Russia situation.
I meant his avatar. Jack just changed it.
It's Natalia Poklonskaya.
http://wanna-joke.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/funny-picture-natalia-p...
Buckaroo, you are right. I changed to her when I read that the Kiev government has put out an arrest warrent for her as an enemy of the Ukrainian people, charged with treason for accepting the job as chief prosecutor for the new Crimean government. When asked about the threats from Kiev she relied, "I have handled hundreds of prosecutions against organized crime, so I am familiar with what the Kiev government wants".
I would like to see the revolutionay heros of Kiev drive into Crimea and try and arrest the woman. That would be worth a Youtube video eh.
Oh, watched a late night rerun of Buckaroo Banzai. Always makes me laugh. Just like "Big Trouble in Little China". Classic old films!
I have seen "Big Trouble" maybe 50 times. Never gets old. Kurt Russell is the most underrated entertainer in America.
No my avatar is not the Ukrainian Gas Queen, Ms. Timoshenko or something like that. She was recorded in a phone conversation saying 8 million Russian Ukrainians needed to be killed with nuclear weapons. She is the candidate favored by Washnington to rule over the revolutionary government of Kiev. I think she fits right in with todays Washnington brand of politicians like McCane and the other crazed war mongers,
indeed. Makes me proud not to be among them. That was the one reliable place to make money - crime.
I'd happily work for Nanex exposing them.
Man has climbed Mount Everest, gone to the bottom of the ocean. He has fired rockets to the moon. Split the atom. Achieved miracles
in every field of human endeavour... except crime!
Hat tip to Auric Goldfinger!
When it all looks totally insane, and it has managed to continue, then one needs to look for answers by viewing things from a different perspective.
Like with the invasion of Iraq, as the lies kept piling up I started to wonder whether the insane portrait was painted not by incompetence but by desperation. If out of desperation, desperation based on what?
O'Brien et al are hustlers. Hustlers always have an inflated ego and will rationalize their position to the bitter end, despite all evidence showing them as no other than con-men. Have I mentioned that humans are deceptive?
Seeing them out in the daylight might not be the cleansing action that we'd like to think it is: well, if you dislike various individuals then perhaps it's sufficient to seem them being the scapegoats.
I think it pretty safe to state that I believe that the majority of ZH-ers think that we just don't have the means to cover our future promises. And, in general, the mechanism seems to be understood. However, when we view the System itself, the economic system that is referred to as "capitalism" (folks can complain all they want about this not being the case, that it's not "true" capitalism, but here we are and) cannot deliver on the promise of growth, and it's growth that is essential for it.
This "news" is about continuing on the "efficiency" meme. We just need to make things work more efficiently (and less fraud certainly should help in this regard) and the growth machine will continue. It is, however, all now down to being more and more efficient, to the point where more and more energy is being applied to being more efficient: we are "doing" more and more to do less and less. No matter how noble this may sound, how well it's "wroked" in the past, NOTHING lasts forever. One day this will be the case. We ought to be asking (before we get there): "then what?"
O'Brien is finished. Another horse slaughtered at the glue factory. Consolidation until there's only the "last man standing." Power doesn't concede itself vountarily. The war drums will be used to hush the real questions. Expect the ever-more-efficent glue-factory to be stepping up its operations...
O'Brien from BATS?
emmmm, Lewis Lit from Suits?
(yes, i do fckn watch Suits, Rachel and Donna, I rest my case)
Go back to New Jersey O'Brien and suck on the Wall Street fiber optic cable you SOB!
I think the population of remaining floor traders would burn down the CNBC studio on the floor of the exchange if they could get away with it.
Seemed to be only one screamer - that HFT asshole.
What PR firm is going to be hired to kill these messengers of truth?
Good move by Goldman to sacrifice some competition before the SHTF.
What O'Brien is really thinking is: "If I don't stop the bleading fast and turn this thing around, there's a very good chance I'll be indicted, lose all my money, and maybe even go to jail."
He's gonna lose his clients, poor bastard.
Not the really big ones. They're conmen as well.
What? Really? Why will he lose his clients when they are profitting from his trades? His clients are as psychopathic as he is.
The Bottom Line is all that matters to his clients. Does he generate a profit? Actually this was good advertising.
(I do not support the jerk...)
We can only hope.
#askbillobrien Does it hurt when you get owned on national tv? Come on guys lets work the twitter gods.
When he said, "You wanna do this, let's do this!" I would have punched him in the mouth as a defensive first strike. That's what countries do, right?
After about ninety seconds of listening to O-Brien I got this urge to go watch the movie "Boiler Room" again.
What's that all about?
It's about the pennies, man.
He has to put food on the table for his kids, dude!
It's not like the good old days when the spread was $0.10. DUDE!
As for me, I felt like watchiong the Life of Mussolini, especially the last ten minutes where they dragged his body thru the streets of Italy with a horse cart.
Katsuyama in 2016? Too bad he's a Canadian.
It didn't stop the Kenyan.
He doth protest too much
Me neither...
I didn't realise Mae West was still alive..
The Zionists on Wall Street sacrificed an O'Brien today.
There's good money in being a sacrifice.
We little people just don't understand that steeling is legal now because it's too complicated.
Never thought about the context of metalurgy, but I suppose one could twist PMs into this somewhere...
why is this Asian dude still free and able to spread lies about HTF ?
why is obrien scared
The music stopped and he doesn't have a chair.
This is what happens to small time crooks.
It's what happens when a sacrifice has to be made and you're the sacrifice.
When the dogs are on your tail you toss some red meat out. Butchers always have plenty of red meat available...
That Bill O’Brien guy is a douche.
Michael Lewis is one of the few writers/journalists today that has enough cache and clout (eg books sales) to generate widespread interest on a topic like this & more importantly define it (basically a skim) in lay-terms and present a protagonist & antagonist.
Would a guy on the street understand any of this? Absolutely not.
Would somebody understand the concept of a skim to explain what BATS and brokerages using it are doing? I would bet yes.
It is entertaining to see O'Brien's desperation and animosity exposed in a high-profile and visible way too.
Exercise half a trade at one price, then the remainder of the trade at a higher price.
I think a 5th grader could understand that.
Is O'brien a coke head?
If so, he needs to lay off the drugs. Spazzing out in front of millions does not instill confidence.
RE
Do flys smell shit?
All kidding aside, you are correct.....60-75% of these guys are raging coke heads. But most now, in the neo-finanical age where "image is king", stop around their mid-30s as the kids get older.
Still doesn't mean they don't booze and party, though. And the 0.001% ones get the whores, because even if they get caught, they don't give a fuck.
The 5 second trade execution guarantee.
The vast majority of trades are submitted by technical, not fundamental, traders.
As a stock approaches a key indicator, like a moving average for example, and also approaches the corresponding time element, or theta, the trading activity almost always spikes (if it is a stock with any amount of trading volume).
Naturally, you would like to execute your "day trade" on whatever side of the key indicator you think the stock is headed towards. Will it cross the threshold, will it bounce or will it complete any variation therein? No one knows, but the average investor will find it very hard to execute a trade at the price of that key indicator, even if the trade was entered before hand with something other than a market order.
This is because that trade will be undercut by almost everyone else.
Proof of this are things like the "5 second trade guarantee" that are offered for an additional fee to the retail investor.
Think about that. No matter what the market conditions are, or the volume in que, a 5 second execution is guaranteed.
If this is not a rigging of the market, I don't know what is.
pfft. Moving averages & actual prices mean nothing without looking at volume. Volume is how you figure out if trades are iceberg entries or if too many people are on the wrong side of the boat, total dollars in for a given slice of time. Price alone is not a useful signal. You need to actually know how far the neck is in of the opponent before you strike.
you have to play the cards that are dealt to you. katsuyama is brilliant, disruption by an honest exchange in a crooked environment.
Romper Room.
In the last 20 years there have been hundreds of new exchange startups that went bust or didn’t make it in the financial services industry. This is the norm, just like most internet startups.
So, the question to really ask yourself is this: Why is Bill O’Brien so threatened by Brad Katsuyama’s new IEX that Bill must go on CNBC to try and shoot it down? That’s what’s really going on here.
We need to go back to The Floor and hand signals ... I can just see Yellen yellin
Lol... i'm very much a lowly stacker and don't understand much of what they're talking about here other than it being market is fake vs market is not fake - clearly the O'Brien dufus arguing for "market is not fake" was losing his mind the cat was coming out of the bad LOL... it was too funny! I hope this starts something... burn, baby, burn.
Money for nothing. What could go wrong?
William O'Brien: "The internet is complex, a factory is complex, there are ways to manage that risk. We need to work very hard to do that."
Sue Herera: "I think that is a very interesting point when you say the market is not perfect, there are imperfections in the market. And Brad that is sometimes called an Edge?"
Brad Katsuyama: <nods>
Sue Herera: "That is how hedge funds, and pension funds, and other companies make their money on the trade, on that edge, on that difference?"
William O'Brien: "No. It's about if you are providing a service right? There's never going to be a market that is only natural buyers and natural sellers especially of very, very large shares. You are going to need an intermediary to help cushion the blow right? And that is a service right? And you know what, it's a service people deserve to get paid for. They used to get paid for it by earning a quarter a share, or charging six cent a share, You know what? Now they get it by earning 1/10 or 1/100 of a cent a share. And that's a good thing. We've taken risk out of the market, people don't need to rely on the balance sheets of the Bear Sterns and the Lehman Brothers anymore. They can use this technology to manage the risk, and that's a good thing."
http://www.nanex.net/FlashCrash/CCircleDay.htmlBrad has exposed the imperfection. What is your point?
It's not an edge anymore.
Billy just admitted the entire thing is a scam to support market edges while blowing indignant that Brad states the market is rigged.
Nothing like BATS and BS,
That's just Guano
The only shit that's worth anything (vs the only thing worth a shit- hey, I'm trying here!)
Those responsible for the rigging have been rigged.
Doesn't a random 0 to 1 second (from a uniform distribution) delay fix the problem? Why didn't these guys suggest that? Seems like a pretty simple solution to me. Shouldn't take a year to implement ... they change algos serveral times a week. Why wouldn't it work? Would any trader have an advantage under that fix? Would there be distortion in the prices? From the article, there is certainly a distortion in the prices now.
Exactly right. Forget the so-called "continuous auction" and replace it with these built-in delays, unnoticeable except by HFT traders whose businesses might not survive. This was suggested in an article by some U of Chicago guys a few months ago, as a way to end what they termed an immensely wasteful, expensive "arms race" to find the way to be fastest in a winner-take-all environment. Very few seemed to notice at the time. Maybe now it will be different. Because so much huge, huge money (I mean billions) is at stake, though, I kind of doubt it.
I'm really kind of amazed it got started in the first place.
If I was sitting in the meeting where they were proposing an expensive dedicated fast link to gain an advantage, I would have quickly pointed out that the advantage could be neutered by imposing such a random delay ... and it could happen very fast making it impossible to recover the sunk cost once the advantage was detected.
That should have been the end of the discussion. I wonder why it wasn't.
May people suggested it but nothing was done. Those who can do it wont because that would jeopardize their post-government job offered by hte crooks.
Random Number Generators are also algorithms and not truly random. Somebody will hack the source code of the Random Number Generator and exploit the pattern.
You speak of "pseudo" random number generators used when experiments need to be repeatable. Such a pseudo random number generator would not be appropriate here.
It is a fairly trivial exercise to create a genuinely random number generator where no output event is predictable.
It's not trivial unless we can all audit the hardware & test performance any time, randomly if you will, without restriction. Otherwise that hardware like any other hardware will be adjusted when you're not looking. Exploited.
Please Zerohedge Readers, Get a bit more educated! It would be impossible to "front run" orders if they timed the orders so that they arrive at each exchange at the same time! Katsuayuma even admitted this himself. He stated that once they lined up their orders, they were able to get filled on all the volume they wanted.
Yes, after he identified the problem and implemented his software solution.
I wonder if he has a patent pending on this software?
The new exchange sounds like a great investment.
You should educate yourself and watch the 60 minutes show.
http://wallstreetonparade.com/2014/04/60-minutes-sanitizes-its-report-on...
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/is-the-us-stock-market-rigged/
ZH published and excerpt of the book yesterday
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-31/read-michael-lewis-flash-boys-w...
It explains the situation well.
That would be like timing bullets as the are fired all around the world to land all in the same spot.
You can't do that, no one can.
The technology does not exist.
The one thing you can do is stop people from firing bullets on the exchange and force them to use a standardized speed limit so none can use faster speed to beat the others.
You know how the TIMING is adjusted for speed right now?
They change HOW LONG THE WIRE IS. That's right, they measure the speed of photons & electrons and adjust the copper wires & glass fibre-optics to match the desired rate & those who need it pay top dollar for it.
It is interesting that the Citadel criminals have been really quiet. Everyone knew when they bought out Etrade that they were doing something evil....
to ALL - the fed response is simple. the market is rigged by hft as they pump our QE fake printed money into it. who has a problem with that? you should all be getting rich on paper, love us, and enjoy the ride up. we promise, it will never end.
Bill O’Brien is all for free market competition as long as it doesn’t conflict with his market philosophy, expose the dirty little secrets about his business model to his clients, threaten his revenue stream and profits, and most importantly, get to appear on CNBC for free when he has been paying millions in advertising revenue to them for protection and promotion for years.
Crony capitalist hypocrisy at its finest. And what would you expect from the financial industry, where 99% of everything depends on selling an illusion.
The edge is gone away -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVxCtt3s_1M
The market isn't rigged any more, lets pony up pronto. Funny how this shit becomes mainstream, at the top? I would say this is a sneaky short, but then again i have probably been knocking around here too long.
Riddle me this BAT CEO... If everything wasn't as Katsuyama said why the fuck did you boot lip everytime he stated the facts and why didn't you provide legitimate facts to his claims? All I see you do is call him a lier when he has actually proven to me otherwise... I hope he puts you and the rest of your cronies out of business. Well the only problem is the FED probably has the fastest HFT algo and probably owns all the new fiber optic lines and provides you with your capital to steal for .05%...
ABC runs 60 minutes and ZH.
http://wallstreetonparade.com/2014/04/60-minutes-sanitizes-its-report-on-high-frequency-trading/
the Tylers already pointed out it's a different company also using the name ABC. Even in Australia the "Australian Broadcating Corporation" is yet a 3rd "ABC".
My problem with this fucking sham is that the scumbags who are " front running " should simply say that they're doing just that, instead of not stating it. That's where they become scumbags,liars & blatant thieves.
The jerk off on cnbs arguing like a retard w/ the Asian guy justifying HFT was embarrassing. I wish some one would ask him & Bob Piss-on-me if they would mind if they were front run with buying a car or groceries, etc.
Isn't it great when someone minimizes your finances?
Shirley & Co - Shame Shame Shame
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEzQV75LDL0 (3:47)
Did not O'Briens Bats IPO have to be recinded because his own propriety system failed the day of the IPO offering and the stock dropped 50%, costing investers hundreds of millions? He is his own exhibit 1 of failure. They should of mentioned the failed IPO on CNBC just to watch O'Brien go batshit!!!
OK, next question... Are HFTs operating in other markets? Commodity exchanges, futures, forex, the Hang Seng, DAX, FTSE, Nikkei?
Is the whole world rigged this way, and, I further contend that HFTs, if their front-running has been an ongoing feature of markets for the past five years, have contributed greatly to the gains in stocks and the elevated positions in crude, now corn and wheat, the lowered positions in PMs.
Does anybody other than me see how front-running on a consistent basis tends to lift all bids incrementally higher on execution? Sure, the Fed is the real problem, supplying the hopium funny money to the banks, but the HFTs just accelerate the process. I maintain - without any proof, of course, just educated conjecture - that the HFTs must be responsible for 20-40% of the overvaluation in momentum stocks at least and many other "mom and pop" types of equities as well.
You notch up a penny on every trade or every other trade or even every third trade and that is an uptick, and that uptick feeds more momentum, which catches the eye of the traders and raises the prices even more rapidly and by orders of magnitude over what the true trading price should be.
Why doesn't anybody see how these enormous swings in stocks - 6, 8 12% in one day - is all about the HFTs front-running bids on hot stocks and making them hotter?
This issue should have been front and center after the flash crash, but the SEC dropped the ball, cause they were too busy watching porn and taking bribes. Our regulatory system is largely to blame - from Madoff to Corzine to the HFTs - for criminality run rampant in the markets, but that does not excuse the actions of the criminals. The public - since the SEC and DOJ are abject failures - must keep this argument in front of the cameras. Of course, the pols will want a piece of the action and will hold hearings that will go nowhere as usual, but the front-running and quote-stuffing has to be stopped or we'll see markets even more distorted than they are now. New highs every damn day on shitty economic news. It's appalling. It needs to be stopped and any method that stops it is fair game because this is an economic WAR that the elites have unleashed on the ordinary citizens of the planet.
I say the gloves are off and Katayuma (sp) should have connected with a big roundhouse right on O'Brien just to get the fight started in earnest. These scumbags of the earth, these vicious bankers, need to be rousted, tried and penalized and the systems they created torn down until they are fair for everyone from the individual investor trading on his computer to the Ackmans and Soros' of the world.
I cannot tell you how sick I am of this entire charade, this folly, this manipulation of every market on the planet by sociopathic mutherfuckers! I've been watching and writing about it since 2006 and just recently stopped blogging about it because I could no longer take it, day in and day out, the same obvious frauds, the same players, getting rich off the backs of the common man.
Pressure must be put to bear on the manipulators and hopefully, today's entertainment on CNBC is just the start. Michael Lewis has opened Pandora's Box. Let's keep it open by keeping the arguments alive. Now is the time for all ZHers to go to their denying friends and family and tell them, "see, I have been right all along," and don't shut up or walk away. Tell it like it is.
The truth shall set us all free. Own it, wear it, be it. Believe it.
I agree with you but would like to point out that HFT's front run in both directions.
I too believe that they are in the other markets.
One has to assume the machines are now ubiquitous.
Also as much as I LOVE ZH where did they ever scream in the clip?
The Bot's and Poster's that now run ZH are in Zimbabwe, and english is a second language,
You shouldn't take any title posts on ZH serious, I long for the days when ZH ran out of India and you handle people running the website that could use the english language.
*
You can google swahili and see for yourself that there are non-vocal characterizations of 'scream' in the language, probably referring to facial expressions.
So is the only difference between IEX and the other exchanges the coil of fiber optic wires that slows down the HFT?
Yeah maybe you could screw up the enemy by using a delay line; increase the propagation delay and correct for phase, you could sabotage the competitor's machines.
Standard 8182 Belden coax had like a 1.666 nano second/ft delay. If you just add moar cable, it slows down, but you shift phase very slightly so you correct for that the enemy competitor has no way of knowing you've slowed down his machine.
Our old chief was too cheap to buy a TBC so we just stuffed moar and moar cable under the floor to make up for signal lag. That's just copper; F/O can be done the same way, I do it every day, but not for trading. I could really fuck up a trade if they let me loose, but it is dishonest so I would not do it.
What do you mean, "...if they let you loose."???
Fuck up the trades, not for profit, but, to help bring down the entire dishonest system.
That is not dishonest but overall will be benevolent.
That is the last scene in Fight Club. Bring it down on top of them. If you have the power then use it.
But your own level of participation is up to you...being complicit through cooperation with the system...or...revolting through civil disobedience to the system. It is your choice in that which you choose to participate and the level of participation in that of what you choose.
Fight Club is real. So is Project Mayhem. I encourage you to do your best to bring it down.
rhetorically I agree. However, any one of hundreds of techs could do the deed who actually work there.
It would be dishonest to all the honest folk trading, imo, so I would not do it.
It is up to the People to demand a Fix.
I also took an Oath to the Constitution, so I am not unaware of domestic dangers.
I am at peace with things knowing that entropy wins in the end.
no.
Other exchanges have developed, in cooperation with HFT firms, a complete set of complex orders that enable them to implement custom ``trading'' strategies. That is, upon being evaluated, the order is transformed according to the current state of the market, often to be discarded if the conditions are not good enough. Just slowing the system ensures that the trader is blind to the other orders entering the system (i.e., has the same market view as other participants), but this was only one part problem. Disabling complex trading strategies was the other crucial point.
O'Brien doth protesteth a bit too much. Why wasn't he asked about March 2012?
It is funny to see the defense of the indefensible though.
Interestiing that Lewis said he was investigating this as early as February 2013. Add in Brad saying he was getting calls from Whistleblowers. Makes you wonder if the recent surge of bankers testing the effects of gravity from rooftops may be related.
thank goodness we haven't has a powerful solar EMP in modern times.
This is only about *money*.
Massive amounts of it.
It's basically a "skimming" or "taxation" operation benefiting the very wealthy.
The guy who said that the market is NOT a Zero Sum Game is a *fucking* liar.
Even HE did not believe that.
This problem is NOT going to go away.
There is simply *too* much money involved.
They will simply pay off in one form or another whomever they have to.
What is that saying - The guilty protest the loudest.
Great shit man!! only thing missing??
JERRY! JERRY! JERRY!
Best cnbc ever! Fucking jerry springer n shit!
If I were assssociated with BATS, I would bat the fuck out of o'brien and have nothing to do with the bi-polar 2nd grader.
What a jo
The FBI and now the SEC are invstigating. Just a dog and pony show. They will report back all is well, no problem here.
The cry baby BATS fucker doesn't like being outed does he? I guess his pool of victims is getting smaller.
Congrads Tyler(s) on being vindicated, but since 09 HFT has shrunk to a fart in a hurricane of impending USD reserve currency loss and devaluation at the hands of the emerging Eurasian monetary alliance.
Please don't end up in the "nobody could have seen this coming" crowd on the biggest financial paradigm shift in a hundred years, after which Wall Street won't even matter anymore.
Obrien is a total fucking jack ass --- he made a fool of himself.
O'Brien appeared desperate in this interview as evidenced by his unprofessional abuse and interjecting anytime anybody else tried to make a point, his demeanor tells you everything you need to know even without knowing anything about what the discussion was about.
It is almost like if the truth came out, everything would topple in this guys opinion.
I see IRS audits in Katsuyama and Lewis' future. Shame on them..........
Just for fun (Tyler could make a nice little video of this, as it can be more illustrative than a histogram of flash order/cancels) pick out a thinly traded stock and try to left best offer or hit the best bid after hours. Using decimals (cents), the market might be .20 bid/.28 offer. Try to lift the .28 offer. As your order moves to the exchange, best offer becomes .29. Pull your order. Best offer is .28 again. Re-input your order. Best offer jumps to .29 again....and again...and again. Note that no actual trading volume takes place while the orders and offer levels are jumping around.
But HFT "supplies liquidity" and "performs a valuable service"! In point of fact, if they can't do a clip and scalp (which is unlikely in a thinly traded issue after hours), the quotes are mere illusions, and exist only because the HFTs are faster than the exchange itself. They also mask where the market really is, since even someone with Level II access has no idea what in the stack is a phantom and what is not. What becomes abundantly clear playing this little game, however, is the speed advantage HFTs have over the exchange itself, and how---when markets are active with customer flow---they can clip and scalp all the live long day---without ever having to provide genuine liquidity nor take any actual risk. They literally know both sides of their trades simultaneously.
+.01 ...... a penny on a billion trades starts adding up to some real money.......
From time to time their is something worth watching on TV. Today was one of those days. Unfortunately, the only thing learned, has been known for a long time. CNBC does not employ journalists, only market cheerleaders. I wonder if this is nothing more than cover for the damage the Fed knows is about to happen.
HFT Trading will be blamed for the upcoming Market Meltdown. That is what this is really about. That is why this was aired as a 23 Minute Event without Commercial Interuption.
Public Relations and PROPAGANDA.