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It All Begins With This: U.S. Middle Class Is No Longer The World’s Richest
Over five years ago, when we first dared to make the "bold" claim (a tangent of which now serves as the basis for bestselling books that paraphrase Karl Marx) that all Bernanke's idiotic assault on the average American, known as Quantitative Easing, would achieve, would be to crush the US middle class, it was ridiculed - perhaps we too should have charged a perfectly capitalist $23.97 for this profound assessment to be taken seriously. Still, we are gratified to learn, some five years later, that indeed, the US middle class, well on its way to extinction, just took out the first and most critical milestone, to wit - the US middle class is no longer the world's richest. And yes, "it's all downhill from here."
Sadly, mostly for America's chauvinism, the distinction of the world's richest middle class now goes to Canada, while the poor in much of Europe now earn more than poor Americans.
From the NYT:
The American middle class, long the most affluent in the world, has lost that distinction.
While the wealthiest Americans are outpacing many of their global peers, a New York Times analysis shows that across the lower- and middle-income tiers, citizens of other advanced countries have received considerably larger raises over the last three decades.
After-tax middle-class incomes in Canada — substantially behind in 2000 — now appear to be higher than in the United States. The poor in much of Europe earn more than poor Americans.
The numbers, based on surveys conducted over the past 35 years, offer some of the most detailed publicly available comparisons for different income groups in different countries over time. They suggest that most American families are paying a steep price for high and rising income inequality.
Much more in the full NYT article which in many words says what we said in a very few words back in 2009. Here is Pew's take on it too:
This week’s chart of the week (our screenshot doesn’t capture the interactive version)shows how after-tax incomes at different levels grew between 1980 and 2010 in the U.S. and 10 other advanced economies. (The data come from the Luxembourg Income Study Database.) Besides showing how steep income growth was at the upper levels relative to the lowest ones, the graphic shows how much different tiers of Americans have fallen behind their peers in other countries.
For instance, Americans in the 20th income percentile earned less in 2010 than Norwegians, Canadians, Dutch, Germans, Swedes and Finns in those countries’ respective 20th percentiles. Three decades earlier, 20th-percentile Americans earned more than everyone except Canadians. American and Canadian median per capita incomes were about equal in 2010, at $18,700, according to the LIS data. But other, more recent income surveys, “suggest that since 2010 pay in Canada has risen faster than pay in the United States and is now most likely higher,” the Times wrote.
But the American rich still make considerably more than other
countries’ rich. At the 95th percentile, U.S. per-capita income was nearly $60,000, more than $10,000 ahead of Canada’s top earners.
Enough words, here are the charts.
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2-3 expensive vacations a year is upper middle class, not middle class.
Middle-class is a no-frills existence. I would define middle class as surviving and improving, meaning a class that consistently increases its standard of living over time, but not one that imitates the upper classes with their consumption. By my definition, there is no middle class in America; it was destroyed by the inflation of the 70s and the deregulation of the 80s, and then the false wealth of the 90s and finally the panic of the 00s that destroyed their home wealth. One hammer-blow after another, and the effect of every blow is to weaken and destroy the middle class to the benefit of the rich.
The middle class by definition must struggle. The diffence between the middle class and the poor is that the poor do not have enough even to hope; they are ground to a pulp, and their lives never get better. Capitalism in America has made us all poor, because the protections from "state of nature" depredations that were put in place after the last great assault on the middle class (in the 1920s/30s) have been rolled back since 1980 by the lottery-mentatlity conservatives/neocons.
awesome commentary. you've nailed it.
what's really sad is that people actually believe all the myths perpetuated by the Dems or Reps.
It would take something completely out of the blue to make people open their eyes. i'm not sure i'll see it before i die.
I swear everyone over here is far more class conscious
than the British.I went to an English public school,so believe me I know the British system.
There are people that need to work to live, and those that don't.
Same as it ever was.
Winston, You're the best! ;-)
Yea well Winston you know where you'd be without the US? The smallest fucking province in the Russian Empire, that's where! :)
I do like how the English can instantly pigeonhole someone just by their accent and thus know where they fall on the class continuum.
And now, for your pleasure here's Peter Sellers' Complete Guide to English Accents:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mRb6zv4SvuM
Sellers was pure genius.
If you haven't seen The Party, do so!
I have not, and I will.
(didn't down-vote you)
"I would define middle class as surviving and improving, meaning a class that consistently increases its standard of living over time, but not one that imitates the upper classes with their consumption."
Ever drive down suburbia and look into all those garages filled with shit? And inside so many homes are granite countertops and other "rich-like" things. No, make no mistake about it, "middle class," and especially measured in terms of global wealth, IS right up there. I'm in the top 10% globally wealth-wise: and I've got PLASTIC fucking sinks, litterally plastic, as in you can shine a light through them! (am I poor or am I rich?)
I detest the entire notion of class shit. Don't fucking care! Labels only give someone else something to tug you around by. Food, Shelter and Water: how is This doing for ya?
Maybe in the 60s but that world has been long gone in the US.
drooley - i love you. i love disneyworld. how about a vacation camping? or how about a vacation just you not going to work everyday and take the kids hiking in the park. as long as you 'aspire' to disneyworld, they own you. just trying to help bro'
Welcome to neofeudalism. You can check out but you can never leave.
Hell, to me anymore middle class is being able to pay your bills on time and put a few bucks away every paycheck, something that personally is getting harder and harder for our family
"and put a few bucks away every paycheck,"
But this cannot work if everyone were to always do this. This is accumulation, and if things are NOT growing, as in there is no more of the pie there, then you are, by simple math, getting more pie. Not demonizing this, just wanting to point out the realities of the logic and math. All that we'd been led to believe is pretty much a lie; the sooner we can wake up to this fact the sooner we can actually be "free" (or choose to be).
I don't want to belabor the point, but take a trip to someplace like the Philippines. Here's where my wife is from: http://flickrhivemind.net/Tags/malabon/Interesting (note: she's older than I am; and, I met her when she was a Canadian citizen) Our lives are really not all that tough...
Dude _ please... so personal...wear a towel...
I never wanted to be middle class anyhow.
i thought i was middle class, but then i grew up and saw the world. i've been in 'first world' cities and realized i had more teeth left than 5 guys total at the bar. 'american's' have so much to be thankful for (except that you were all lobotomitized by the television'.
i am actually very thankful for all that i have. i found out i'm not middle class.
now - can i just figure out a way to get the fuck out of 'america'?
Yeah, it's amazing on how conditioned one can get. You start to understand what Plato's Allegory of the Cave is about...
"now - can i just figure out a way to get the fuck out of 'america'?"
I think that it's more of a mental thing to "escape." I'm going to continue to do what I believe is right and let the chips fall where they may (and the chips most certainly will fall- and not just here, so other places that might appear better now are in no way certain to continue to be that way- sometimes it's just best to work with what you know).
seer - it's not that easy. i don't have a car and i don't have a television. i don't shop. and i've read plato and more similar and i can do it in a few languages. i don't have a heck of a lot to talk about with other people. but, i continue to do what i think is right, which for the most part is be honest and respectful and treat people the way that i would want all of us to engage with each other.
thanks for the support. it's a lot worse in other places, it really is. you don't want to be in ukraine right now, that's for sure, and that is a good example.
"Do the best that you can in the place where you are, and be kind." - Scott Nearing
No one said that life should be easy. And when it appears easy for others it's likely just an illusion, as those others are likely mentally afflicted/tormented and have a greater fear of losing their perilous positions (farther to fall).
"By 1995, the accumulated trade deficit totaled approximately $1.1 trillion. This number is analogous to our national debt of $4.9 trillion. Like the national debt, the accumulated trade deficit will have to be paid, either by a lower standard of living or increased productivity and sales." ~ a long-forgotten independent presidential candidate, July, 1996.
"Long forgotten..."
You must mean that jagoff from TX that basically got Clinton elected.
Was that Perot? I kind of liked him. However, he made his leap up the ladder via govt contracts. I'm not a fan of hypcrisy.
Everyone's a hypocrite, and everyone's a slave
Selling that salvation, yet only you are saved
Toiling ever harder, falling farther behind
You'll find the feast of freedom
Comes from the larder in your mind.
I'm trying to think back as to when I started to realise that I appreciated your posts....
We need to know net-wealth metrics, as in how much debt are these people carrying, how much of it is revolving and nonrevolving, how are they doing on servicing it, is it growing or shrinking, how fast and by how much, how much savings, how much in investments, liquid or illiquid, etc., along with purchasing power parity of all nations/currencies considered, and average CoL (and for example, how affordable is the average house) for every economic class in each nation. Also, where is the money coming from, is it from economic flashes in the pan like tech IPOs and fracking/shale energy, or something like newly developed mines, or agriculture, or manufacturing. How much of GDP is military/governmental. Trade deficit, or trade surplus. How much is the relevant CB printing. Do they export more or import more energy. Do they even produce any energy. Ditto for food.
A very tall order indeed, but anything less unfortunately is superficial, incomplete, dubious, misleading, and very very easily spun - and really I would expect nothing more or less from the NYT.
How is fracking a "flash in the pan?"
From what I've read, there's enough frackable gas in CONUS to cause a boom that will last for decades, if not centuries. It the numbers are correct, fracking is a total game changer, not something temporary.
Also, oil production in the U.S. is increasing so much, partly due to shale extraction, that we may soon once again be the world's largest oil producer, bigger even than Saudi Arabia. Also not really a "flash in the pan," when you consider the numbers involved.
Nothing lasts forever, but some things leave a changed world in their wake.
Fracking the source rock is similar to scraping your hash pipe for a last hit or two....
To wit, one of the "darling" gas shale plays Haynesville appears to have already peaked...
This summer will a real test as NG storage is at multiyear lows...
As for becoming the worlds largest producer of crude oil, fuggedaboutit.... NGLs and volumetric refinery gains are not oil...
We'll have so much fracking frack.
But our water will be contaminated beyond any standard for healthy consumption.
What do we do then? Better get 100s of desal plants up and running.
Here you go:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/6571/
Soon enough, the Canadian middle class will feel the pinch, too. Not many wealth creators (i.e. increasing net energy) left. Sorry fellas, politics isn't going to fix this one.
You glanced the truth, but didn't strike it dead on, and came off sounding a little like someone who has swallowed too much of Ayn Rand's propaganda.
Pure capitalism cannot produce a middle class. The more unregulated capitalism is, the more severe the income and wealth inequality. This is easily seen in America, where wealth inequality has been steadily worsening since the 1960s, until it is now the worst in the developed world, in tandem with the gradual unraveling of protections that were instituted in the 1930s by FDR after the abuses of the moneyed class.
The reason that middle classes are disappearing is because 90% of the wealth is held by 5% of people, and those people are not "producers," there are merely hoarders of wealth. The wealth they hold is far out of proportion to any social utility of the work (if any) that they do.
Meanwhile, the more "socialist" countries, who have more protections against extreme wealth and income inequality, have larger, more secure middle classes, higher per capita GDPs, better growth, and much better standards of living, not to mention lower crime, better education, better healthcare, and happier, more productive people.
It is high time that the false dichotomy of "capitalism versus socialism" as preached by the Cold War ideologues such as Rand and Reagan was exposed for the fraud that it is. Like everything else, economic organization is not a binary. What is needed is some protection for capital and property, and some protection for people -- not a wholesale devotion to one and abandonment of the other.
Unfortunately, conservatives in America seem to be wholly reactionary, as well as black/white thinkers. Ironically and sadly, this is probably often a result of the poor educational system that they refuse to improve, because it "costs too much."
Boy, are you ever going to be a popular guy here....
"came off sounding a little like someone who has swallowed too much of Ayn Rand's propaganda.... The more unregulated capitalism is, the more severe the income and wealth inequality. This is easily seen in America, "
And you came off sounding like you enjoy swallowing <Insert your favorite democrat scumbag name here>'s load. Good lord, You'd have to be a complete imbecile to think the United States has 'unregulated capitalism' in any form.
What if we woke up tomorrow and the bottom 1/3 or 1/2 of our society just disappeared? Our economy would resemble a hot air balloon that had just dropped its ballast soaring for the heavens.
Education costs too much as it is. It is a rat hole that billions are pissed away into. Most mediocre people I know want more for doing less. Most teachers and other unionized workers for instance. We have a shit load of mediocre, entitled people who have been babied and coddled throughout their life. We can't compete with the hungry, disciplined masses that swarm the rest of the earth.
Women and girly men clamor for the warmth of big government's bosom.
Fat asses riding scooters. Seniors each popping thousands of dollars in pharmaceuticals each month. SSDI recipients chewing on KFC and then getting hooked up to dialysis the next day. Tens of millions of pampered pets. 100 to 150 million people who contribute absolutely nothing of value to society.
Pretty soon all that we have worked for and diligently saved will evaporate in the efforts to continue propping up this hideous charade.
Unfortunately much of what you say is true. That lifestyle is grotesquely unsustainable. And that which can't be sustained, won't be. The system we the people have allowed to exist and grow over the past few decades virtually guarantees a large segment of the population winds up like that. They Hoover up a bunch of lab experiments that pass for food, which they purchased with their snap card, get morbidly obese, then need govt provided pills, purchased from pharma compaines owned by the very same conglomorates that own the 'food' manufacturors, to treat conditions that can largely be cured(or prevented) by healthier living along with some hard exercise. And you don't need an expensive gym membership to run a couple miles a day. All you need is a decent pair of shoes, which surprise surprise, many of them are wearing 100$ shoes. At this point, since what you said is not real likely to happen, we don't have much choice other than to isolate ourselves as much as possible, and sit back and watch the inevitable unfold.
Surprised your post has lasted this long with out a large amount of drive by down votes.
Fred and greens keeper,
Both of you have summed it up. Frankly, I'm aghast this has gone on as long as it has. I used to be shocked at what patients were becoming, now I'm shocked if I am working on someone without diabetes or normally weighted. The nurses kid they knew their patients when they actually had all their limbs. I can believe someone would rather have their foot amputated then lose weight and eat properly. This kind of thing really blows my mind! It can't be ignorance. Basic staples are still relatively affordable if you keep meat at a minimum. I cooked a sweet potato Shepards pie tonight with lentils, carrots, onions,garlic, 2 sweet potatoes, tamari and rice milk. The whole dish cost under $6 and we ate only half. Ok, it did take some effort to chop up and prepare the ingredients. I think people are lazy and used to microwaving a box. No wonder they are sick, fat and limbless.
Miffed;-)
Be well Miffed.
Thanks Yen! To you as well. Missed you.
Miffed;-)
I have sensed a "superiority" from some who "suffer" from disabilities recently, which I find odd. I was waiting to board a Southwest flight and was in the "A" section. A gentleman was in the disability line and had the "blue sleeve" on his ticket signifying that he had priority boarding due to a disability. He was not in a wheel chair, did not have a cane and looked healthy. He was flapping his ticket around like he was trying to get attention like it was a Rolex watch or something we was flashing and had this look or expression that said "I am special and will be boarding before you".
I also get the superiority vibe from people who have the handicapped card or license plates and whip into the handicapped parking spots. I guess if that is all you have going for you, then you will think that somehow makes you superior to all of the little people who have to wait longer or walk farther.
Do you see a sense of entitlement from the disabled seeking healthcare? My beef is not with people who are truly disabled, but people who either scam the system or who don't take care of themselves and then expect sympathy or special treatment from society. It is known that doctors give out too many handicapped designations or that relatives hang onto them after the handicapped person dies.
I guess what I am saying is why do they see being handicapped as a badge?
years ago I was told of a perfectly healthy 50ish woman just wanting to retire in sunny LA, had enough of working, so she got on SSDI and then got all the extra's, her ex-boyfriend told her the ropes since he was on it for 10+ years (said working was 'just not me'). That is the thing, not getting on SSDI, but the multitude of others programs vs the expenses of working. I even know of a lady who was in ball room competitions who was getting SSDI etc... There is no shame, in fact, as you say people are pround of beating the system. You made very good points about the bottom 1/3 and 1/2, how about K-Street- wall street parasites and the mulititude of 3 letter acronym federal parasites
There obviously is a major reset taking place - especially with the Ukraine smokescreen. I believe step one is the elimination of the middle class by taking pensions, then the seizing of land. TPTB plan is to eliminate the middle-class entirely, and then the bottom 1/3.
When you are part of the multitude that fees compelled to work in order to survive it is easy to lose sight of the other parasites that you mention that reside on K and Wall streets. I do not rub shoulders and come in contact with those types much. Good point.
Fred, after really ruminating on this, I think you are right. I was required to learn how to operate the patient "crane" designed to lift patients over 350 lbs so not to destroy the nursing staff ( damn near passed out finding out it was certified to lift up to 1200lb!). My pleading my situation as a microbiologist exempted me from such an education fell on deaf ears. After learning the rudimentary operation, I was then asked to participate with two live patients. I was shocked at the amount of complaining and demands from these two. I would have been mortified with the scenario and they thought they were owed what they got. That their situation was just some random accident. It has become some perverse badge of honor for many. Some how they have created in their mind they are without responsibility for anything in their lives. Some form of self delusion. Like the young mortally obese women I see now strutting around covered in tats and piercings. I cringe at their repulsiveness but they exude this confidence they are the hottest piece of ass out there. Maybe I'm the one living in the dream.
There is a strange disconnect from reality never seen before. I remember when a 500+ man came in with several vertebrae in his spine crushed. He was just sitting watching tv and they just gave way under his weight. The doctor explained with his heart condition,COPD, high BP, diabetes, kidney failure and extreme weight, he would not survive surgery. I'll never forget the Drs comment on the chart. " I don't not seem to be able to impart the gravity of this situation to the patient and his family". They just thought he could be fixed up and return home. He died a month later of sepsis, in extreme agony. The microbes always win in the end.
The sad part is we have to watch and suffer their choices whereas they are not experiencing the true results of their decisions. I think we are kind and want to give to those that need our help. Many have helped me in some of the dark times of my life and I do have a strong sense of reciprocity. I am grateful to those people. I have a sense the people of whom we are discussing are not.
Miffed;-)
Scary. Big is not beautiful. Big, that big, is life-threatening.
The body just wasn't meant to survive conditions like that and nature would never tolerate slow, fat animals with fast, hungry predators.
One thing I would add about personal responsibility: when I know Mr/Ms. McFatty is so heavy they can't get out of bed I no longer hold that person responsible for further fattening foods. They can't actually GET the food, someone else is now helping. It's their fault up to that point but whoever is bringing that fat fuck even more KFC, cheezypoofs and whatever the fuck else they shouldn't be eating, that person or people now share responsibility.
"Do you see a sense of entitlement from the disabled seeking healthcare?"
My wife sees "entitlement" all over in North America. Having come from the Philippines (dirt poor) it's kind of hard not to spot all of this...
We can blame it on individuals, or we can blame it on our grow-or-die system (Wall Stree + Madison Avenue). Doesn't matter, nature has gathered plenty of recruits to set about a correction, and mere muman tweaking of "health care" or other such minor things is going to only produce minor changes in comparison.
Good to see you Miffed - I was worried you had disappeared into the aether.
Thanks dear FMJ,
With work having morphed into one of the 7 gates of Hell and two close friends leaving for better opportunities elsewhere, I've been a bit melancholy. I felt I wouldn't be missed here but am cheered I was wrong. There are friends here and descending into nihilism and negativity is just unproductive and ultimately self destructive.
Some off line have told me I am indulging ZH as an addicted drunk when it should be sipped as an aperitif. But I tend to dive in to dark waters before looking and not play it safe dipping a toe in at the shallow end. Just hanging at an oasis for a spell to get my head straight. Quite an undertaking for a women but it can be done. This is one area I am truly envious of men.
Miffed;-)
I often toy with the thought of dropping out of this place, but it's folks like you that manage to keep my spirits/insanity up enough to continue to hang around. I feel, and I suspect the same is with you (and FMJ and many others) that it's really about offering wisdom more than trying to pimp shit (pimping ideologies, as though they can exist as some pure form at the hands of humans and the imperfect world).
If you are in fact a woman then all the more impressive that you manage to handle being here amongst all the testosterone. My wife doesn't deal in the doom stuff, I think that that's because she understands that there's little to be done, that and the fact that she was closer to it most of her life than most here.
Dear Seer,
I think if you have been following my posts for any time you can tell I speak in flavor feminine. I think you could pick up if I were a poser. Just as I sense you and rafter man are masculine. You both exude it and need not state such. I do know several here that are women that post as men. If this is what they need to feel comfortable, I don't feel the need to criticize. I need to feel honest by posting as myself and not as a persona. This can be a wild ride here but I expect nothing less. I appreciate the wisdom here as you and to be frank, I enjoy the fact this site has allowed men to speak freely, good and bad. Most men I interact with in daily life seem defeated and castrated I am sad to say.
Miffed;-)
I would certainly have no doubt. The way you describe how you and your husband are now and how that's changed over time just can't be faked. It's real life experience only a wife could portray.
You got it. I got a shelf just full of pasta bought at a rate of around 50 cents per pound.
My electric's inclusive & I think the landlord's getting a bit pissed at the electric use but I barely use the microwave. Most of what I need to eat can't be properly prepared in there: hard dry pasta needs boiling water on the stovetop & raw chicken is best cooked by boiling or roasting and I prefer roasting. I don't have a BBQ or I'd do that. A friend does and tonight that's what I've got because he kindly offered to do that for me, took it half-defrosted right out of my fridge. I certainly appreciate the favour.
On the other hand I also have a steamer: its element is very tiny and it very quickly turns any frozen vegetables I've got into a finished serving. I buy fresh & shove the excess into a freezer bag until I need it. The 2 heads of brocolli I bought 3 pay-cheques ago are barely 25% down since I also had fresh parsnip, tomato & cucumber (which I'm still not eating fast enough, it's getting soft on one side, but still edible).
The only 'unhealthy' (depends on portions) thing I ate is chicken-skin-baked french-fries with cheese. It's excess skin from chicken I previously cooked, put under those home-bake fries from the frozen-food section, and I put my own cheese on it after I slice it. I can't stand those nasty pre-sliced 'cheese' things. They are horrible. To me they taste like half-plastic halfbutter slabs.
"The reason that middle classes are disappearing is because 90% of the wealth is held by 5% of people, and those people are not "producers," there are merely hoarders of wealth."
...and I am so sure that will be magically gone with a socialist system. I wasted you on another thread so i will reiterate it here.
CAPITALISM, WITH SOME SOCIALIST CONCEPTS, WORKS AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A FUCKING FUNCTIONING JUSTICE SYSTEM.
THIS IS NOT CAPITALISM. THIS IS CRONYISM MATASTISIZING INTO FASCISM.
If we had sound money, we would have justice. The corruption in our unit of account is what lets the system fail for everyone except the connected. The Fed exists to supply a corruption that cannot be avoided by anyone. But it can be maipulated to the betterment of those in charge of the corruption.
You completely skipped HOW the middle class came to be in the first place!
The upper-class is made up of the planners and such. The middle-class is made up of the technicians. The lower-class is made up of the workers. That's the classical definition as far as I understand it to be. Walt Whitman, from 1858, set the mark for the "Middle Class" at $1,000/yr, which, as stated here http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/samples/cam034/88032975.pdf suggests that this is totally above the level of the craftsman of the day, a move toward the white-collar suburban worker.
"The reason that middle classes are disappearing is because 90% of the wealth is held by 5% of people,"
The "reason" is because there is not enough resources to support the growth necessary to maintain a middle class. Refer to my above definition of the classes to better understand why the upper-class really isn't best served through the loss of the middle-class: not only is the middle-class the buffer between it and the lower-class, but the middle-class provides services that more directly benefit the upper-class.
The middle-class is TOTALLY a product of excess resources. Go ahead, see what percentage of the population was middle-class during the oil-era; I bet that you'll see a huge increase in that number as the oil got pumped. And as the amount of oil pumped diminishes that percentage will show up as declining.
Socio-political forces are NOT the driving factor here (though they may alter the landscape a bit, and for a while, eventually the physical world and its offerings set the real tone).
Up-arrow for passion and for effort.
Down-arrow for accuracy.
"The reason is because there is not enough resources to support the growth necessary to maintain a middle class."
We have not run out of resources. It has nothing to do with resources. All of our resource scarcity is due to the bullshit peddled by leftist enviro nutbags that worship mother Gaia and think the very next time a cow farts the entire planet will spontaneously explode so they implement their wettest of wet dreams thru tyrannical govt forced scarcity.
It's because the globalist phucks sent all the 'technician' jobs to be done by slaves in third world dictatorial shit-holes on the one hand and the open borders phucks that want to import millions of 'the workers' on the other. And then on that third hand (I know, right) the tyrannical phucks that just cant leave people the phuck alone redistribute away the impetus for giving a shit and trying to make something of ourselves.
Neither + nor - because you're wrong.
"We have not run out of resources. It has nothing to do with resources. All of our resource scarcity is due to the bullshit peddled by leftist enviro nutbags that worship mother Gaia and think the very next time a cow farts the entire planet will spontaneously explode so they implement their wettest of wet dreams thru tyrannical govt forced scarcity. "
Not like talking to a rock is going to convince a rock not to be a rock, but for the benefit of others who might stroll across this thread and wish to actually be able to debate based on logic...
1. I never said we have "run out of resources," it would be nearly impossible to completey exhaust something because we wouldn't likely have the momentum to carry forward to such a point- we'll collapse before it's "all gone;"
2. It's a finite planet, there IS a limit- to deny this is to state that the earth has no measure;
3. Humans consume resources, ALL living things do, and many living things DO suffer from collapse due to resource scarcity (simple lab tests on bacteria demonstrate this);
4) Govts cannot control mother nature, they can only alter an interaction, for a time.
Oh, and for a bonus:
5) Each one of us is going to die, whether "others" are "conspiring" it or not (well, "mother nature" conspires it- ALL life eventually dies).
That there are humans engaged in deceptive practices is no revelation. But be careful that hatred blinds one from actually seeing the real truth...
P.S.
PickletonMember for:
12 weeks 6 days
You have a LONG way to go...
Please jettison the notion of left or right, primarily because they are both statist who just want to tell everyone else how to live. All politicians are controls freaks and voters elect them to inflict pain on people they don't like. Until individuals get past the idea civilizations only advance by smacking the other guy, this will continue.
Most people would never do to their neighbor what they ask politicians to do to their neighbors. Most people see themselves as valiantly supporting the right side but in reality they are cowardly scumbags who need a street corner (or alley) education.
the it's all about balance in life. Yin and yang. The world needs some yang right now Ann Rand with a dose of justice is the right elixir.
Not enough " increasing net energy" Fixed!
It's about RESOURCES!
For Canada that was their mining and timber. Now they're holding on via tar sands (and it's as tenuous as it sounds).
Wow, looks like a sane Republican has been spotted:
Well, he must be a RINO. That is a purely populist move. The Koch brothers will probably put out a hit on him, if not in the .38 special sense, then at least in the electoral sense.
"Pay for the electricity they sell back to the grid..." God, does it get any more Orwellian? What kind of doublethink math is that????
Ummm....
The first clue is "She".....
It all begins with Israel's inner circle assassinating Obama and blaming their enemies
I believe it was Karl Marx that said socialism begins with destroying the middle class.
And we all know that Wall Street supported Karl Marx.
Socialism is just another word for totalitarianism
The fate of empires has absolutely NOTHING to do with ideologies!
Here, read for yourself, a study of 3,000 years of empires:
http://www.rexresearch.com/glubb/glubb-empire.pdf
Shameless Self-Promotion
Check this out, I feed familiar jerks to a tiger:
http://fedtoatiger.blogspot.com/2014/04/hello-now-prepare-to-die.html
Contains mature language, adult situations, graphic violence and animal tricks.
Madoff, Krugman, and today Corzine. Plus others.
You know you want to.
The data only goes through 2010 in the top graph but ZH you just shot yourself in the foot. Socialist Scandanavia had consistent middle class growth while more capitalist economies began declining. Not that I believe in socalism but look at the graphs.
Myopic idjit....
YEAH BABY CANADA CANADA EH
America has the wealthiest elite in the world bar none.
Look no further. The rest doesn't matter and can live in the drecks.
Bush vs. Clinton 2016 - is what the elite feels comfortable with!
Forward American
All you peasants out there, eat our peas and shut up. You get to live here and that's about all you can ask for. Isn't that better than living in a hobble in Africa or Ukraine? Now, go on about your business and make the elite prosper some more!
Thanks for the pep talk. I am good for another year of corporate slavery.
I think it has something to do with the fact that Canada is not a Jewish multicultural shithole like USA. Plenty of white folks up in Canada. Economic studies show that regions with white people tend to have higher education and a lower crime rate.
since when are asians white people?
"I think it has something to do with the fact that Canada is not a Jewish multicultural shithole like USA."
Yeah, that it's a colony of the British is even more "refreshing!"
"Economic studies show that regions with white people tend to have higher education and a lower crime rate."
Let me guess, done by "white people?" Did this hold true when "Austrailia" was formed? or were all those early beacons of light distorted by those filthy savages?
"Plenty of white folks up in Canada."
I'm white. I've spent plenty of time up in Canada. The best thing I ever got out of Canada was my wife- she's NOT white. I'd recommend that you stop speaking for all Canadians lest you totally discredit yourselves... (or your "whiteness is bestness" meme).
Flak is trolling. it's ok. He's got some decent thoughts. Hey Flak I'm conservative, does that make me a "Republican?"
The middle class voted for Hope & Change, Fuck them. Become responsible for your actions. We don’t rent out shoulders to cry on.
I don't know. I love London but Britain is kind of a cesspool of mean muslims. Canada is freezing ass cold. Sweden is great, but you know.... you literally need permission to take a shit. German I find the women sexy but it's so damn crowded.
Put anyone ANYONE from any country in the world, let them live for a bit in a place like Santa Monica California. Then ask them, where would you rather be?
I'm not the guy chanting USA USA USA and I find more reasons to criticise this place than most people, but just what about all these other countries. France? It's ruined too by the socialists.
I've worked in four continents and I do admit that my six months in southern california were the best. And oh my, the eye candy is second to none. Sadly I only remember getting laid once.
well... not bad for gargoyle. How was her eyesight?
Comparisons are a bit weak.
You can't (well you can but it's not valid) compare a city or a county to a country, and decide to live in that country. The entities are far different, one to the other.
If you go to a county in Kentucky, like Harlan, you would be stepping back into the 18th century. It's rife with outlaws, drug dealers and manufacturers, you could get killed for suspicious activity that is totally innocent. Ditto Compton, South Bronx, Detroit City, the Homewood/Wilkinsburg in Pennsylvania, and many many more, including the worst one of all D. fucking C. with its utterly corrupt national government that oozes out of the swamp creatures that reside there.
There are cities in France that are highly desirable as places to live, ditto Italy, Spain, and even Greece.
Tiny countries are really just big cities, homogenous for the most part. Anyone taking an incestuous 'country' like the Scandinavian ones, Luxembourg, Latvia, Catalonia (really is a different area of Spain) and comparing them to any other country of incomparable size for anything even their health care, is missing a big point. These comparisons are worthless in determining where best to live.
The U.S., due to its size, which is ten times or more larger than any of those European countries naturally has more safe idylls than the others. To compare the U.S. cities somewhat objectively one would have to put it side by side with all of Europe, even though the Continent has a hundred more million human beans in it than we do, to get an approximate comparison.
There are cities all over the world that are highly livable, prosperous and decent. No matter which country you want to talk about.
Then taking into account the personal preferences for climate, (i hate the idea of living in buggy part of anywhere, be it a beautiful Lake district in Canada, infested with mosquitoes, flies, and other critters the thought of which makes me itch spasmodically for hours) Seattle is utterly depressing along with most of the Rainy Northwest.....
Choosing the right entity in which to live is a mind blowing process that one can spend a lifetime trying to find unless stumbling accidentally in to it.
Constant sunshine would drive me nuts whether it's dry or humid. So one can with a few good paper resources, rule out many places b 4 deciding among the rest.
Wow! There are still people around with common sense?
The bottom line should be about fundamentals, about what one sees as the fundamentals. And, really, it's kind of hard to trump Food, Shelter and Water as the key fundamentals.
I don't like cities. I've been to some of the biggest in the world. The most comfortable city that I've ever been in is Stockholm, which, comparitived to the world's biggest, isn't necessarily all that big. Helsinki was also pretty nice: I rather liked the countryside of Findland, it reminded me of the countryside in lots of the US (actual rural areas).
Whatever choice one makes it should be of whether one would feel comfortable with the notion that they'd be OK being there when the music stops...
Kyle Bass on BBC's Hardtalk April 12th
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bI4BX3Euzo
He's a gold bullion owner becaue capitalism without banskruptcy is like Christianity without hell.
Bankruptcy is real, however, and hell is not; at least in the Christian biblical sense.
Why is it that people think that a perfect form of something can exist with humans being responsible for it? Capitalism only ever existed on the blackboard. We can fantisize all we want but the fact is is that it would never exist in its pure form. Doesn't matter whether you/I/everyone want it to be this way or not, that is reality: and the same is/can be said for socialism- supporters are always blaming the "other side" for not "allowing" it to "work," when it could never work in the real world, not as in theory, same headwinds applied to capitalism...
Capitalism cannot work w/o growth. I'd like to ask Kyle what he thinks would happen when all the gold is mined. I like Kyle. I like the "notion" of capitalism, as I believe that we've got to somehow identify a way of understanding the scarcity of our environment. And if not for the incompatability of boating and gold I'd state that I also like gold. But... no matter how well-sounding something is it can never be all that it is stated to be because humans are human, they are deceptive...
Christianity is something that people do in order to accept that things are imperfect. It's all about survival, in which case I won't knock it...
Dont worry, you are still number one in making large holes in other people countries..George Carlin
On the whole, Canada has faired quite well over the last few years. The problem now is there are many in Central Canada who are going to vote Liberal in the next federal election, kicking out the Conservatives and ushering in a new socialist central government. We'll end up just like Southern Europe.
Some people just never learn!
Yes, yes. Left - Right, Blue - Red, Good - Evil.
Keep on keepin on there Mr. Idiot. We all know that if "our" team gets in then all will be great... because it matters what colors your team wears.
The bubble is going to pop, the bubble that was put there and supported by all the Pols in all the legislatures... Yep, it is gonna be a travesty when the Red team takes over and radically changes the course of the Canadian economy...
anything is better than zionist harper, even quebecois.
Thank god i am poor.
Are you Filipino?
Is $60k supposed to be a lot of money? That is the 95th percentile? After taxes, and before the mandatory insurance taxes, you are taking home around $45k. You can't afford a $250k+ home on $60k which means you are priced out of half of America, about 95% of what is worth living in.
A kid and a wife, a mortgage and a few car payments. Sorry but you are dirt poor. Nearly everyone making $25k can do better than someone making $60k thanks to government handouts.
Better to avoid being Middle Class ... either High or Low but no Middle Man
I know right? All those poor people on government subsidies eating lobster and vacationing in St. Kitts. Living the high life!
Stop being an idiot. Go spend a week living like one of those families and see what their reality is really like. Then you will see if they got it better than someone making $60k per year.
Is this $60,000 before or AFTER taxes and is it for one person or the entire household (meaning $60,000 is the BEFORE tax total income of the husband & wife combined)?? Then they expect to have 'a kid' on this income that is (supposedly) in the 95% percentile?? Car payments? seriously, drive a 10 year old Honda paid for with cash in full.
A $250,000 home?? try a starter home built before 1950 that costs over $450,000 plus another $8,000 + a year in annual property taxes... You will be renting in you aren't making in the six figures (per person)
Is this $60,000 before or AFTER taxes and is it for one person or the entire household (meaning $60,000 is the BEFORE tax total income of the husband & wife combined)?? Then they expect to have 'a kid' on this income that is (supposedly) in the 95% percentile?? Car payments? seriously, drive a 10 year old Honda paid for with cash in full.
A $250,000 home?? try a starter home built before 1950 that costs over $450,000 plus another $8,000 + a year in annual property taxes... You will be renting in you aren't making in the six figures (per person)
"Nearly everyone making $25k can do better than someone making $60k thanks to government handouts."
LOGIC FAIL!
Fine that you don't like those that get "government handouts," but let's not corrupt logic in an attempt to make this connection.
Most people here have NO clue what "POOR" means. Do you have electricity? Do you have toilet paper? If so then you're a LOT less "poor" than the bulk of humanity.
When you're talking thousands of dollars per year you DO have wiggle room. What people whine about is that they don't want to give up this non-essential or that non-essential thing.
"a few car payments"
What does That mean? You are making paymenst on a few cars? Or, that you have only a few more payments to go?
750 MILLION (for the math-challenged that's nearly 2 1/2 times the total population of the US) people in India live on $0.50/day. What if these people all claimed that we're the beneficiaies of govt/US handouts, MIC adventures cornering markets and giving us returns for our "pensions" (as if these folks could EVER even contemplate the very word "pension")?
Then you future looks bright.
Then you future looks bright.
I'm missing the Swiss....so the demonstrated statistic should be uncompleted.
This is after tax, right? So that's why the Norwegians are lower than the USA - because they earn more gross but pay more income tax. Looking at net income as a measure of "richness" is dumb.
from an inellectual level... you should be flogged.
I have no idea one way or another other than I had to laugh at the existence of "intellectual" and "flogged" in the same sentence :-)
Society must find a better way to distribute labor and the rewards of labor. This would give more people a path to finding real and fulfilling work. The cost of inequality is taking a toll on our culture. Robots and new technology have streamlined and increased productivity and at the same time eliminated many jobs. Big business is good for big business but not necessarily for the masses.
Consolidation often means a gain in efficiency, but this often comes at the cost of losing diversity and a "robustness" to both society and the economy. How the fruits of labor are divided is important, this includes not just the wage deserved by a common laborer, but how much those in management, top CEO's, and those that can't, or choose not to work, receive. While we have become far more efficient in producing goods, all people should in their lifetime contribute to the good of society and the economic pie. More on this subject in the article below.
http://brucewilds.blogspot.com/2013/04/society-must-better-divide-labor....
This is a cart-b-4horse scenario.
Labor must needs a thing or service to expend its energy upon.
The dying of industry not replacing itself, without which there is no 'reproduction' of places to work for a meaningful income.
The corollary to that is that there are 6.7 billion people, half of which who can work, but cannot find or invent jobs and careers that they can do for living or prosperous wages.
I am certain there are many hundreds of millions of people who would happy to spend 8-10 hours a day working at a productive job that produces enough income for them to support themselves, their intended families, and to hopefully prosper much as they did in the late 40s, 50s, and 60s.
A sea-change reversal occurred arguably beginning in 1980 when the LBOs began and the accountants took over as accomplices of the Mergers and Acquisitions crowd, who realized that they could extract wealth by taking a fee in the billions from combining the administrative and other duplicative costs by combining several organizations into one, and borrowing trillions to pull it off, saddling the new entity with unconscionable debt for decades, if not forever.
That was the death knell for jobs with growth stopped, and regressing in employment opportunities. One of the most egregious of these being Dennis Kozlowski's Tyco.
That was also the commencement of Financializing everything, turning everything into paper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Kozlowski
The 1980s, speaking in terms of the US, was really a natural outgrowth of the 1970s which began with the USD separating from gold (essentially the US declared bankruptcy in all but name), seeing the top in the production of it's prime export -oil- and the opening of trade relations with China. From there it was pretty clear that organic growth for the US was dead; the only thing left was to become a "service-based" power (ramp up the MIC and financials). It's kind of more of an involuntary, self-perservation path more than it was planned (though TPTB tried as hard as they could to ensure that it would hold the US aloft); and, it's nothing new in the anals of history's empires (all pretty much the same patterns/mechanisms unfold).
...that's probably a typo but it is rich in accuracy, nevertheless:
"....the ANALS of history...".
Canadians utilize their natural resources, such as oil, gas etc. Our political situation is stopping us from doing the same. Period
"Utilizing natural resources" is essentially the hollowing out of the buried treasure a piece of geography has stored over the millennia. They run out. And so too does the income upon which that nation depends.
'Splains why some would like to take Russia over with all it's buried wealth.
Seems there should be by now another model for a country to prosper than by consuming itself into extinction.
but no ism rests on such enlightment so off to the chemical sheds with you
Drill baby drill! Strength through exhaustion!
Spoken like a true oil addict! (note: I'm an addict too, so I know one when I see one; I, however, have take the key step of realizing that I'm an addict- first step in recovery.) Best of luch navigating that LONG road ahead...
Time for a hit on the Vape pen and some cookies.
The United States - and Britain and other countries - have been quietly progressing towards economic & societal socialism for years. The very existence of the EU is testament to this. In the US under Obama it's taken a strong upwards lurch and what's happening there is closely followed and adopted in other major countries, due to the (never-admitted) close co-ordination of policies between governments of major nations.
Whatever socialism promises - and it always promises plenty - it always brings with it a process of quasi-equality across society. What the adherents and peddlers of socialism never admit is that this quasi-equality is achieved by levelling down, never levelling up. It should be obvious to the masses, but isn't, that there is only so much wealth to go round at any point. This results in the progressive impoverishment and eventual destruction of the middle classes. Why? Because the middles classes are the ones who have the wealth to steal & share with the groups at the bottom of the pile (to buy their support) and to feed the greed and criminality of those at the top.
As civil discord breaks out, people begin to challenge the wisdom of such policies and socialism begins to collapse into a heap of manure, it is eventually propped up by a growing fascist police state to keep order whilst the middle classes are being robbed by the State.
Societal collapse follows.
Rinse and repeat. Each cycle of socialism begins with a new set of slogans and labels intended to fool the people that "this time it's different".
It never is.
Right, that's what we have, societal socialism. Massive multinational corporations and big banks have co-opted our three branches of government and wield the tool of government however they damn well please. Except of course, that is called fascism.
Be very careful with your -isms. When your economic and political information comes from your radio, you tend to sound dumb.
"Be very careful with your -isms."
hhmmm ... As I've said a thousand times here, there and everywhere, fascism is invariably an extension of socialism. Fascism is where socialists turn to when people stop buying the lies and won't co-operate. The policies then have to be imposed by force. Enter the jackboots etc.
Under Obama, what you started with was societal socialism overlayed on to (already existent) corporatism. The two invariably operate in parallel as the socialists try to show they are "business friendly". These migrated progressively to fascism when it became necessary to maintain order as the plundering continues. Obama's long list of anti-liberty, police-state laws/regulations and EOs are testimony to this. Eventually, you get a political police state which hunts down anybody who dissents and brands them a "terrorist" or "domestic terrorist". Dissent becomes unlawful. Everybody must comply.
Well, which one is it?
And while you all are masturbating over what is the "correct" term over which no one has any ability to affect I'll be keeping on keeping on...
FYI - "Capitalism" is about concentration of capital. One could argue that this leads to a collective arangement as well. Since NO "ism" exists in its purity we can play all sorts of games pretending that something pure is better than something that is exposed to the REAL world...
Canadian's may make more in terms of annual wage income...but they pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes to their government.......i.e. "free health care". If I remember it's like 40~50% vs 25~30% for U.S. workers.
Finland is like 60% in taxes. So Europe and Canada workers might earn more but at the end of the day who keeps more of those earned dollars?
Ever wonder why Canadian's flee like rats leaving a sinking ship to places like Mexico when they retire.
So if they pay more in taxes, that healthcare is not really free, is it?
It was in quotes, which, I believe, means it's slightly rhetorical. But since you asked a question...
The converse could be stated here, that "taxes" actually provide some tangible, whereas in the US it's questionable. So, it might be possible that removal of a for-profit middle-man from the medical industry is more efficient in delivering medical care. There are no numbers provided here in which case there is no way of actually measuring: all banterings of support either way are jsut that, banterings.
Now, in case you think I support a given "system" I will point out that I do not. I don't have enough information to make the ultimate/final decision: and, really, I've got more important life things to do than to sit around and try to decode the labyrinth of medical shit. In favor of insurance companies (middle men) I have argued that they put a check on excess charges (and they also deny treatments, which is the very same thing as being a "death panel"). I DO know that I abhor all the fucking paperwork that the US medical complex generates: yes, communication is good, but for god's sake, sometimes I swear that the intention is to confuse.
BAD SYSTEMS FAIL. At some point we won't need to debate these things...
About the best you can say now is that we are in A World of Shit.
RE
Psst! It's Philippines (double the "p" not the "l"): I've had to really fight my brain on this one, so I know it's easy to fuck up.
Worlds of shit are good for farmers :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M
Please everyone
Misdirect your wrath
Looks like 0bamao has achieved his "fundamental transformation of the USA."
How's that working out for you?
He's a POTUS, nothing more nothing less, a fucking puppet! Capisce?
That's like my: "Look! It's a distraction!"
Without a consumer class there is no economy.
But everyone in the USA wants to cheat and underpay everyone else, from their waiter to their nurses and their school teachers.
And we are OK with a fabulously wealthy individual having more say in the decision making than the next several million of us. America will reap what the most powerful among us are sowing...REVOLUTION.
Get your mind right!
She'll be a great precedent.
Perhaps Obama, Reid and Pelosi's plan is to go the North Korea route. All these socialist politicians would thrive in an environment like North Korea.
Stupid Party Pussy!
$60K is nothing. a freaking set of tires for an SUV alone cost $1K.
And the horror, caviar is going for upwards of $140/oz! How can we survive?
At the 95th percentile, U.S. per-capita income was nearly $60,000
Say what?
We have some malfunction here probably between "per-capita" and "household", but I thought 95th percentile now is well above $100k.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States
This 2010 article puts $100k at just the 94th percentile.
There's income and then there's wealth...
This might help (though data referenced is for/from 2000):
http://www.gizmag.com/go/6571/
Ah, another Party Pussy newcomer! Welcome to the shredder!
"ChargingHandle" - nothing like trying to come up with something macho, eh? Is there a factory out there pumping out your kind?
The rest of the world is as fucked up as the US. I suppose that that's your counterpart's doing as well?
News flash! ALL empires collapse. And, ideology has very little to do with it (sorry):
http://www.rexresearch.com/glubb/glubb-empire.pdf
UN Agenda 21 at work.