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East Ukraine Votes For Independence: Turnout Reported "Off The Charts"
The most significant geopolitical event of the day is the east Ukraine independence referendum taking place in various cities across the region, less than two months after the Crimean case study which saw the region split away from Ukraine and join Russia, despite the fervent warnings by Kiev and the west that the result of the "rigged election" would not be accepted by anyone. As it turned out then, it only needed to be accepted by Russia which promptly took over the Black Sea territory.
Today's vote is a carbon copy of what happened in Crimea, with the locals almost certain to vote in Independence from Kiev (even over Putin's "objections" who has managed to distance himself from the vote if quite willingly will accept its outcome), followed by another vote that annexes east Ukraine (and subsequently Transnistria) to Russia which may be held as soon as May 18, promptly followed by the adoption of the Ruble as the regional currency.
All while the west once again, in a desperate example of futility does nothing, but merely warns of more "costs", sanctions and claims this too referendum was illegal. The same west which, as a reminder had no problem with a violent voup in Kiev three months ago despite a signed agreement by western leaders that saw the existing government in power until late 2014. The same west which now sternly refuses to recognize what, at least superficially, is a democratic referendum.
As a reminder, this is what most likely will be the final outcome of today's events:
For the details of what happens on the ground, we go to Reuters:
Separatist rebels pressed ahead with a referendum on self-rule in east Ukraine on Sunday and fighting flared anew in a conflict that has raised fears of civil war and pitched Russia and the West into their worst crisis since the Cold War.
In Mariupol, scene of fierce fighting last week, there were only eight polling centres for half a million people. Queues grew to hundreds of metres in bright sunshine, the event taking on an almost festive atmosphere as one polling station overflowed and ballot boxes were brought out onto the street.
Clashes broke out around a television tower on the outskirts of the rebel stronghold of Slaviansk shortly before voters made their way to polling stations through streets blocked by barricades of felled trees, tyres and rusty machinery.
"I wanted to come as early as I could," said Zhenya Denyesh, a 20-year-old student, second to vote at a concrete three-storey university building. "We all want to live in our own country."
Asked what he thought would follow the vote, organised in a matter of weeks by rebels, he replied: "It will still be war."
Oddly mature for his age, and yes - Ukraine's violent response is only a matter of time: "Ukraine's Interior Ministry called the referendum a criminal farce, its ballot papers "soaked in blood". One official said that two thirds of the territory had declined to participate." The US response was just as terminal. Via the NYT:
A State Department spokeswoman, Jen Psaki, said the United States would not recognize the results of the votes. She said the referendums “by armed separatist groups are illegal under Ukrainian law, and are an attempt to create further division and disorder,” adding that if they proceed, “they will violate international law and the territorial integrity of Ukraine.”
Far more importantly, should Ukraine be split in two - either peacefully, or through a civil war - the IMF's bailout money ends, which after all is what this is all about.
However, while this would mean the end of the Kiev government which would be promptly swept out of power should the western money trickle to a halt, the eastern locals couldn't care less:
Engineer Sergei, 33, voting in the industrial centre of Mariupol, said he would answer "Yes" to the question on the ballot paper, printed in Russian and Ukrainian: "Do you support the act of state self-rule of the Donetsk People's Republic?"
"We're all for the independence of the Donetsk republic," he said. "It means leaving behind that fascist, pro-American government (in Kiev), which brought no one any good."
Speaking to people today in #Mariupol - they don't expect Kiev's 'Euromaidan gov' to recognise their referendum, but don't care about that.
— GrahamWPhillips (@GrahamWP_UK) May 11, 2014
Just as important is that the local population has no illusions about what happens next:
Some see a "Yes" vote as endorsement of autonomy within Ukraine, some as a move to independence and others as a nod to absorption by Russia.
Annexation is favoured by the more prominent rebels, but the ambiguity may reflect their fears an explicit call for full "independence" might not have garnered the support they seek and could leave them in an exposed position towards Kiev.
The NYT focuses on this question:
Despite their slapdash nature, the elections pose a risk of escalating the smoldering conflict in Ukraine by entrenching the political wings of pro-Russian militant groups, while putting the interim government in Kiev in the awkward position of arguing against what organizers describe as a democratic votes.
“The results will legitimize us before the world community,” Roman Lyagin, the chairman of the central election committee of the self-proclaimed Donetsk Republic, said at a news conference here Saturday. Mr. Lyagin said he had printed 3.1 million ballots that pose one question: “Do you support the act of self-rule for the People’s Republic of Donetsk?”
But even in Donetsk, the wording had people baffled. Some interpret the question as a vote for more local autonomy, some for independence and still others as a step toward inviting annexation by Russia, following the example set in Crimea.
In any case, the answer will be known shortly: the turnout based on journalist reports has been far greater than expected:
#Russian media confirms that turnout in #Lugansk region reaches 80% whereas in #Donetsk region it reaches + than 60%.
— PaulaSlier_RT (@PaulaSlier_RT) May 11, 2014
More on the turnout from RT:
More than fifty percent of voters in the Donetsk region have already cast their ballots, according to the head of the Central Election Commission of the self-proclaimed “Donetsk People’s Republic,” Roman Lyagin.
“The turnout is not just high, it’s off the charts,” Lyagin said. “People are queuing up at polling stations, and election commissions are working at full capacity.”
The referendum turnout in the Lugansk region has already reached 65 percent, according to the chairman of the local referendum committee, Aleksandr Malykhin.
In Mariupol, recovering from Friday's deadly clashes, only eight polling stations have been opened, according to the coordinator of the central election commission of the “Donetsk People’s Republic”, Boris Litvinov. Those willing to vote have to wait for their turn in huge queues.
Voting is due to end in 53 locations at 10 p.m. (1900 GMT) and the rebels hope to have the ballots counted by Monday afternoon. This means that an official announcement of east Ukraine independence may come as soon as Monday night or Tuesday.
"It is not at all clear what action rebel leaders will take once the results, expected one way or another to show a large "yes" vote, have been announced. Any appeal to Russia could confront Kiev and the West with a serious challenge."
What most likely will happen is that the newly-independent eastern republics will note that Kiev armies continue to engage in anti-terrorist operations, at which point they will request that Russia send in peace-keepers. At that point Putin wins again.
As for the visual coverage of the day's events, here is a sampling of photos on the ground:
— ?????????? (@myrevolutionrus) May 11, 2014
??????. ???????? ????? ? ??????? ????? ????????????? ?? ???????????. pic.twitter.com/THTT1w6kHE
— ?????????? (@myrevolutionrus) May 11, 2014
??????, ????? ????????, ????????????? ??????? ? ??????? ????????????. pic.twitter.com/xH4AQcRrv6
— ?????????? (@myrevolutionrus) May 11, 2014
??? ?????? ????????? ???? ????????? ???? ??????????... pic.twitter.com/Cb661DjQN8
— ?????????? (@myrevolutionrus) May 11, 2014
??????????. ??? ?????? ?????????????! pic.twitter.com/K68dYcmJjE
— ?????????? (@myrevolutionrus) May 11, 2014
??????. pic.twitter.com/ZNPA3qBJvi
— ?????????? (@myrevolutionrus) May 11, 2014
??????? ?? ??????????. ??? ?? ???????, ?? ??? ??? ???????????? pic.twitter.com/Hk2lxAe6o5
— ?????????? (@myrevolutionrus) May 11, 2014
#AFP PHOTO: east Ukrainians vote in the referendum called by pro-Russia rebels, in Ternove village, near Lugansk pic.twitter.com/gn9hLk2ISi
— Agence France-Presse (@AFP) May 11, 2014
A woman at a Donetsk polling station drops two ballots into box, shot by @mattmcgarry pic.twitter.com/8U7zlDitaR #Ukraine
— Alexander Marquardt (@MarquardtA) May 11, 2014
Someone voted "nyet!" (Ballot top-centre): pic.twitter.com/u9YRTaS8FE
— Mark MacKinnon (@markmackinnon) May 11, 2014
We at this voting station in #Donetsk - queue goes all way down the road #Referendum pic.twitter.com/5u1iQpNke0
— PaulaSlier_RT (@PaulaSlier_RT) May 11, 2014
??????? ?? ?????????? ? ????????. ???? @BCEX_HET pic.twitter.com/65bTw3E2LP
— ????????? ?????????? (@redhunky) May 11, 2014
????????? ?????????? ?????? ?????????? ???? ?????????? ???????? "?? ??????". pic.twitter.com/TD5oGR8HPd
— ?????????? (@myrevolutionrus) May 11, 2014
??????????????? ?-34 ? ?????? ????????, ??? ??????? ???????? ?????????? ? ??????? ??????? (????) pic.twitter.com/WGvWZfi5IB
— RT ?? ??????? (@RT_russian) May 11, 2014
?-? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???-? ????????????? ?? ?????????????,?? ???? ???????? ??? ? ?? ??????! ???????? ???? ?????????))) pic.twitter.com/tOfCslDcoT
— ???????? (@skitalezdon) May 11, 2014
Finally, here is a livestream from the Donetsk central voting commission which has periodic updates on the voting process:
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"Stop expressing your fundamental right to self-determination!!" -- said all the Rothschilds, always.
God, we are getting like the whole Denmark of new citizens. And it's just 2 Eastern regions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw0F4U2z7oY
Up yours Obama, John Kerry and Victoria Noodleman. Go choke on it.
Texas - are you paying attention? Fuck that pantywaist Perry - get 'er done!
I get your point but the problem here is who is Texas going to appeal to for protection from DC goons? Mexico? Yeah right. Unfortunately, Texas would be squashed like a bug.
we here on zh are an extrem minority that might be willing to fight for freedom. it must get much worse b/4 people wake up. so expect much more domestic "terror" b/4 enuf goons snuf merican to a wake up call. by that moment it may be too late. hillary will be rolling out marshal law for disenters with billion bullets to back paid domestic mercenaries...
the hope and change clueless eaters will get...
Nuke Austin from orbit, just to be sure.
Not squashed like a bug, because there would be some very serious blowback and similar fires would start elsewhere.
But there would be casualties, to be sure, and it cannot be done without them. Alas, we have gone so soft that very few are prepared to get active, unless it's with a keyboard or phone.
Real revolution starts only when the revultion becomes intolerable, and there is not enough food. IMO, 'Mericans won't SNAP out of it. For now. And like someone posted above, this won't end till the USD/UST gets dethroned from its GRC status.
As long as you atheists go first. /jk
Friend, I think it's high time we all stopped sweating and bleeding for "deities" and their self-serving middlemen, who are little more than Elmer Gantries (hucksters) and Clergy that I'd describe as "glorified shamans with a planned career-track". It's high time we fought for our homes and lands, and not for those in faraway places.
Speaking of "Deities"... if you can sell the concept of an invisible and undetectable product to pre-conditioned minds, you can sell ANYTHING. As I heard a car salesman boast recently: "I used to be a minister. If I can sell religion, I can sell cars, and I can sell anything". Perhaps that explains why so many former evangelists (Mormon youth) go into Network/Multilevel (Pyramid) Sales & Marketing. After sheeple buy into Genesis 1, things like fiat currency, FRB, Usury and Derivatives are child's play to sell.
As I've said before: "I do not need the bribe of heaven or the blackmail of hell, to lead a normal, fulfilling and purpose-driven life, or to be a decent human being." Nor will I bow down to or worship any entity (sentient being) from this or any other planet, which acts like a bully-superhero, or acts as an anthropomorphic projection of ancient desert dwellers. Assuming that these stories about encounters with a Deity/deity was real in the first place, and not a fabrication of a clever and ambitious mind.
Unfortunately all too many humans have such a poorly developed brain and psyche, that they do need these Candy & Stick approach to social behavior. Rulers (secular and clerical) have known this for a long time BTW, and play the Game accordingly.
Easy bro. You go your way and I'll go mine right? Simple enough. I was trying to be friendly and still will. My attitude about fight club here is that it is good natured even if a bit bloody. I care not if you get offended but it would be better to take it as good natured fun from another chum at the same bar.
"Kerry Caught in Organ Trafficking to Rothschild Heir"
Wonded Ukranians Organs' Removed While Still Alive
Nice to see a place in the world where a vote still means something. It certainly doesn't here anymore
The US shouldn't have recognized the gvt established post coup d'etát in the first place.
But everybody knows this isn't a matter of the rule of law, Democracy or things like that, no longer functioning in the West and in many places around the World.
Kiev can always take it up with constitutional court.
Oh wait.....
Correct. I don't know if it was you or someone else, but I recall a recent post where the person said that Ukraine has no functioning constitution because it is not being observed by the Coup Regime in Kiev, and they have disbanded the Constitutional Court anyway.
Given that the populace in Europe has a far more enlightened view of what's going on, it's clear that TPTB are catering to the domestic audience. Presumably to "play for time", while they keep plundering the store and the nation.
The only certainty in this whole thing is the the gold will never be returned to Kiev ever again.
Referendums are the most form of a true Democratric process, hence unheard of in the so called "Free" world.
So far all of the Sunday morning tv lame stream shows are carrying the Nigerian girls as the main headline.
Well let's be serious here ... the Nigerian girls are clearly more important than people being burned alive in a quest for self-determination because they have a more catchy hashtag.
It is clear that the people of Nigeria, who purely coincidentally are sitting on top of oil, need intervention ASAP to save those girls.
A superb distraction.
Look! Squirrel!!
The incredible irony of democracy and the will of the people being used by eastern Europeans to deal with a fascist coup supported by western Europeans who object to the use of democracy highlights how utterly corrupt western democracy has become.
"State Department spokesbitch, Jen Psaki, said the United States would not recognize the results of the votes ..."
And after all, the USA is the self-proclaimed global arbiter of what constitutes a legitimate and fair election anywhere in the galaxy. Ain't no vote recognized and valid until spokesbitch Jen Psaki says it is.
You're too kind. Spokescunt.
Does Jen Psaki recognize Svoboda beating up members of Parliment while speaking to the legislative body? Is that "legitimate"? Is that "legal"? Huh, Jen, Huh?
How about a Referendum to arrest and procecute the DC war criminals.
Jen Psaki is a little baby--ought to be put to bed with her bottle.
http://www.nationallibertyalliance.org/sites/default/files/5-9-14%20Fede...
Meanwhile in America under the radar...
POSTED MAY 9, 2014 Court date JUNE 2, 2014, stay-tuned for details.
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK; James T. Foley Courthouse; Suite 509; 445 Broadway; Albany, NY 12207 on the 2nd day of June, 2014 at 9:30 AM;
Happy Mother's Day - - Lady Liberty
May we at ZH and elsewhere continue to light up the darkness before the dawn.
Details?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDkyu3HkhFU
Indeed "Fuck the EU!"
‘Fuck the EU’: US diplomat Victoria Nuland's phonecall leaked - video, 7 February 2014, (The Guardian) Watch Vid:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/feb/07/eu-us-diplomat-victor...
Blackwater BUSTED: American goon wearing uniform of Ukraine’s tactical police captured in Kharkov https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R23NEPvGgw8
So where have we seen this before?
JFK ASSASSINATION INVESTIGATION SHOOTER NR 3 & 4 - THE BADGE MAN http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=253165.0
400 US mercenaries 'deployed on ground' in Ukraine military op http://rt.com/news/158212-academi-blackwater-ukraine-military/
Dutch Proverb: ‘In zijn eigen sop laten gaarkoken’ - My English trans: ‘Being stewed in one’s own juice’
Because that’s exactly what Putin seems to be doing with the ‘Ukraine’.
First thing East-Ukraine has got to do is file a complaint against the EU and or IMF, on basis of Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), who are behind this Odessa Genocide committed.
Now we just need Australia to do the same with the UN and UK to do the same with the euroFags.
They were given a choice of Obama CIA death squads and Loyd Blankfien financial terrorism or living with Russia.
Of course they would choose big daddy.
The unfortunate part is that I'm sure there are plenty of people in Ukraine who want neither the coup-installed US-backed regime currently in power nor the government of Russia. Unfortunately, the possibility that citizens want nothing to do with either the fascists or the Russians is entirely disregarded by any and all reporting from the region.
Over 50%, as reported by the WP, wanted to Remain Ukraine.
Just because those people want to remain part of Ukraine does not mean they want the coup-installed Kiev government. Think for yourself.
WP is crap...
learn to read
RT is reporting that the coup-installed government in Kiev has seized a handful of polling locations with military forces.
interesting link to mercs--
http://rt.com/news/158212-academi-blackwater-ukraine-military/
A fraud just like every other vote or election. Another puppet government (s)elected and owned by central bankers.
Obama and his good buddy Victoria Nuland want to be everyones top cop worldwide.American exceptionalism to the rescue.Just like Iraq,Libya and Afghanistan.Don't worry,the CIA knows best for what is good for the world(and the U.S. taxpayer).
Off the charts.......
Would you expect anything different.....?
Referendum? Oh, yeah, the things that are always overturned by Federal judges here in the US.
https://de.nachrichten.yahoo.com/bericht-us-ldnertruppe-k-mpft-ukraine-090915261.html
here it is.
Here in English:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=008_1399789525&comments=1
After the recent display of idiocy by the US State Dept we now know why the 'Economic War Games' that Jim Rickards attended/participated in were set up and run by the Pentagon.
...and we all know how well run the Pentagon is... They still haven't found the missing $6Trillion that they misplaced.
1/3 of the QE to Infinity went to the Central Bankers, 2/3 's is held by the Federal Reserve NY. and the private yet mortgaged accounts owe.....
Unproductive Paper Pushers took 1/3 of the money to administer and this will cost generations to pay, on loans created out of thin air..............
The Banks should have collaped. That would have been the re-set required. Instead, more divergence, The rich gained more wealth and Power. Next,,,,,,,,, Too LARGE to jail?
Why the round face?
Little coverage by USGMedia.
Big story about some queer joining a football team, as if no homos were ever in pro sports. What a crock. My brother had a gay cook on his boat, and he never bothered the straight guys, so they did not bother him. I had a lesbian in my company, same deal, all before DADT.
Some militant group is behind all this Gay Pride BS, trying to split the US Serfs.
There are TERRORISTS in the UKRAINE!! And the terrorists are US. The USA and all their flag waving democratic freedom BULLSHIT!! It's time to throw our illegtimate government out and start HANGING these treasonous bastards. HANG OBONER for TREASON FIRST. Then shove a putter up his ass so he can go golfing in HELL. Then hang the entire congree and senate save for the likes of Rand Paul and some select others. Hang the entire Supreme Court, Treasury, and everu dept head of every agency. Then start doing the banksters. Jamie Dimon and Lloyd Spear go first, drawn and quartered in Times Square.
Give Bath House Solitary!!
No hard dicks to keep him company at night.
And no Muscle Boy magazines in his cell, either!
@hangemhigh77
Wait...you want to throw out our corrupt elected officials and that is okay? Are you talking about voting them out or throwing them out?
It sounds like you mean throwing them out, and that is exactly what Ukraine did (are you going to really say the Russia backed government was not corrupt to the core, did you see the wealth that leader siphoned off in only a very short time?). There are an awful lot of voices on here who advocate the same thing be done in the United States, and for some reason, it is okay here, but over there it was wrong to remove elected politicians.
So we need China to fund the overthrow of the US .gov?
Sounds like a winning plan to me but it would take much more than the $5 billion spent in Ukraine.
either vote them out or charge them and put them on trial.
Vote to revoke your consent to be governed under the Constitution by our corrupt red team / blue team politicians. The Ukrainians get it, too bad we don't.
To vote today in the Donetsk/Lugansk region referenda, a person must present identification.
Not in much of the U.S., where voting fraud is widespread.
This BEARS repeating:
who gives a fuck what the United States thinks, do they think they are ruler of the world
+ one zillion gazillion........
If they don't vote for Obama and Newland, Obama us going to declare it invalid again.
They want their moneys worth out of Ukraine.
As did George 111 in 1776. Wahsington was a bloody effin terrorist... until he won.
Regarding this ZH article from April 30:
Battleground Ukraine: A Comprehensive Summary (From A Russian Perspective)
That was a 1-hour lecture by historian and sociologist Andrey Fursov on the events leading to the February 2014 coup in Ukraine.
There was a second hour, in which the audience was invited to ask questions. Here it is subtitled in English :
Questions & Answers with Andrey Fursov (67 mins)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt9m6kQAgEU
Major topics in the second hour :
03:00 China has been publicly quiet on Ukraine, but privately continues to build their Silk Road across the Eurasian continent.
10:33 Gorbachev neglected his legal duty as head of state by not issuing an arrest warrant for Yeltsin. There needs to be a proper political-legal assessment of the actions of both.
14:29 Lukashenko has come out against the federalization of Ukraine. Does he fear the same in Belarus, which does not have the same socio-cultural fracture that divides Ukraine?
31:42 History of the more or less non-existent Russian elite on the global stage, while the dominant elite on the planet has been the Western one, who are inherently invisible.
37:23 The Yellowstone super-volcano, with the power of 1000 atomic bombs, will inevitably erupt some time in the 21st century. The elite are preparing for it, but it could wipe them out too...
44:42 The war in Ukraine will be fought between private armies from outside and self-defense units from the local population. Russia will only enter under a UN mandate. There are “ways” to deal with private armies. The junta would not survive federalization.
48:51 None of the explanations for the disappearance of MH-370 is satisfactory. However, the list of patents of the 20 specialists, who, moreover, all happened to be on the same plane, is very noteworthy.
50:40 : 10,000 soldiers in Crimea who maintained their allegiance to Ukraine could, legally speaking, undertake the country's liberation against the anti-constitutional junta.
51:56 Ukraine only had a functioning economy within the Soviet industrial frame-work.
54:12 Road-map for developing the Customs Union (disparagingly called “USSR 2.0”), as the only viable alternative to exploitation by foreign predators. Absorbing Western Ukraine into the Soviet Union was a mistake.
59:50 The EU´s bleak future – economically, socially, culturally. The future micro-chipping of their population.
1:02:04 Stalin thrice mobilized society to thwart the Anglo-Globalists' plans to eliminate Russia.
---------
Both hours in one video: Lecture + Questions:
Battlefield Ukraine. Andrey Fursov (2hr 18min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZxfWYBhD50
See those pictures, how everyone voting has a gun to their head.
(sarc of course)
Only in ZH's KGB thug loving dream world is 60% turnout "off the charts."
Letting the sites of the Prague Spring and the Hungarian Revolution into NATO is fucking provocation!?!
You droids are either lunatics, or the paid FSB provacateurs that you constantly accuse the CIA of hiring.
In the conspiracy theory world... ZH may in fact be sponsored by Kremlin. ZH articles give to much fanfare to Putler's dictatorship regime. Even between 3 dirty shirts US-EU-Putler I would never choose Putler.
Even though every goverment is trying to achieve what North Korea achived long time ago, Russia is the fastest in this race.
Recently all I am seeing are quotes from RT - Kremlin directly funded channel. Isn't this a bit too low, Tyler ?
Stop bitchin and fight back. You can always quote VOA or even CNN.
Is CNN still reporting about a missing plane?
Look over there...
or even a cuban twitter
Hey! Why in the ef do those furriners have an election on Sunday!? Man I gots my football/baseball/basketball shit to watch on Sunday! They should do their voting thing like we do, on a workday like Tuesday when everyone's too busy then you gots the excuse not to vote anyway! Ain't demobcracy great?
sad thing is all this violence and division could have been avoided if the original agreement made back in February had been implemented and honored.
but that just wasn't good enough for the state dept. who needed to make sure the anti-Russian crowd came to power so time to bring in the Nazis. "Yats" himself was quoted as saying the Sevastopol deal was only valid until and should be "reviewed" in 2016. clearly he was in favor of closer ties with NATO and the Black sea fleet being evicted possibly to make room for elements of the 6th. you could all but here the NATO joygasam at the possibility of being able to expand it's "missile defense shield" into the Ukraine and possibly even Crimea itself. would NATO have dared do that? I think it's possible, the myopic arrogance on display throughout this situation by the western powers leads me believe that they have no qualms about playing with fire.
after all it's not like they have ever been burned bad enough to know better.
in a way these brave souls in the east may be doing us all a favor, by creating a bulwark between the pro EU, pro NATO west and Moscow who simply cannot suffer any more NATO countries on it's border. the opportunity still exists for a stalemate that does not require Russia to exercise it's military doctrine of "deescalation". which as we all know by now would be bad for anybody living on or around a US or NATO military installation who doesn't have sunblock with SPF 6,000,000 handy.
I don't know if this matters, but RT reports the ballot saying,
“support the Act of state self-rule”
as if it's referring to another document. The quote above from the NYT says,
"support the act of state self-rule ..."
which they say is confusing residents.
Rigged elections??
Sounds like Dubya in Ohio and Florida.
Who wins, is irrelevant when you are simply voting for which master gets to pick your pocket, and order you around at gunpoint.
Voters don't win elections. Counters do.
Do you want to be governed/controlled by the corrupt Russian government or the fascist Western installed politician? Which in the long term provides you for the best opportunity to govern yourself? Seems like a choice between the lesser of two evils.
Putin did not become one of the richest individuals in the world by allowing the sheeple any free will. And do you think he and his cronies are going to increase freedom going forward or will it slip more and more towards totalitarianism?
This one is complicated....and eventually the democracies have to draw the line somewhere. (Personally I prefer no war here and Russia can have Ukraine if it wants it, but no more than that)
Junk away! :-)
While all states are evil, it seems Russia is moving towards freedom while the US and Europe are moving away from it.
Who are these "democracies" that you speak of?
The ones with elections set up so that only members of state-approved parties can participate, and even then only members of those parties who are accepted by the elites can get on the ballot? The ones whose media is controlled by a few corporations who parrot the gov't line on every issue and specialize in mass distraction of the over-fed and under-educated populations?
I contend the western democracies when compared to Russia, still are far more free. I realize that they do not provide as much liberty as everyone would like, but do you really think the opposition party to Putin has any chance at all! What does that say about liberty in Russia?
If any middle class person had to choose between making a go of it in the United States or Russia, I would venture 80-90% would still choose the United States. If you are extremely wealthy, the % would be less because that type of wealth can buy you more liberty than others. And even in Russia, the non-party connected wealthy can and do have their assets seized.
http://www.recapo.com/60-minutes/60-minutes-interviews/60-minutes-bill-b...
You're living in the past, that America no longer exists. It is now the US Empire uber alles.
You are just arguing over which cage in the zoo happens to be your favorite; exactly as the State wants you to.
The State is flatly immoral. Nothing good will ever result from that which is begins with an immoral act. Perhaps, by opening more eyes to the evil that is The State, we may reduce the risk re-establishing The State as Civilization emerges from the next societal collapse.
Voting is always a choice between 2 evils.
not voting boils that down to one : you get a dictator whatever the "trappings" may say, and, you have NO say.
Yes, its alway better the devil you know. I didn't say not to vote, I merely pointed out that it was a choice between 2 evils. Most people choose what looks like the lesser of the 2 to them. Don't you wonder why the US supports and actually assisted in installing fascists or why that might look like the greater evil to the Eastern Ukranians? I think that someday in the not-too-distant future we here in the US are going to wake up and find ourselves in something that looks a lot like 1930 Germany. Those who fought that are dead now. Time for another attempt. Many will cheer.
"Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again." Bertolt Brecht, The Irresistable Rise of Artero Ui.
The choice is uesually between a turd sandwich and a giant douche
Voting is evil.
FIFY.
The USA owners are the richest in the world and they take care of their USA federal employess quite well.
The Ukraine has nothing to do with Michael Sam so nobody cares.
The US talks about how important spreading democracy is and having free and fair elections.
Well, this precisely what's happening in Eastern Ukraine....and yet the US won't recognize it?
How can anyone respect the Ukrainian people? They are so backwards they still think voting is an expression of their right to choose. Luckily, we in the USSA have moved well beyond such primitive social behavior. Our managers and Dieboldt chosen official politicians take care of all those silly freedom things, which leaves us free to watch more sports on tv.
Also, those paper ballots are unsanitary and a waste of our valueable forests, which as anyone knows, further contributes to global warming.
But, but, Ukraine is the greatest, most peaceful democracy on earth - next to Israel!
More cookies! Stat!
Who gives a crap what the State Dept thinks or says!!! The World continues to ignore you....
'Self-determintation' makes my brain hurt.
The Bild German paper continues to provide back up to the claim the 400 mercenaries of Academi-Blackwater actively help the Kiev clique in its acts in East Ukraine.
The German press is now more and more insistent that there is a US/EU conspiracy to "help" Ukraine detach itself from Russian sphere of influence "by all means" to weaken Putin's hold on East Europe. The end now clearly justifies the means.
What is this "end" supposed to mean? Given Germany's energy Ostpolitik and City's Oligarchy dependency?
Note that Hollande is today in Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia on a junket after his meeting with Merkel on Friday.
We can see that the EU leaders take the ring fencing of Putin very seriously. All the while Gates in USA says Crimea is a "done deal".
You wonder what the West wants. Moscow has the largest number of billionaires after London; which has the greatest number of Russian Oligarchs resident there outside Russia. And Mutti like Schroeder knows what Russia means to her energy balance.
Looks like Potus and neo-cons have boxed the world into a lose lose situation. Like in 1914.
Head up ass and bisons running off the cliff.
And how many Russian special forces are on the ground in Ukraine?
Too bad there is no freedom of press in Russia (Putler owns all of the press), so noone can really report it.
There is as much or more freedom of the press in Russia as in the EU or US.
Nyet Russia is more free
Next we'll hear "They were forced at the barrel of a gun"
What do the other Ukrainians say? How much debt gets spun into the new republic lol
http://edgetraderplus.com/anything-goes-anywhere-anytime/new-world-order-is-not-conspiracy-theory
Ukraine is a large country - almost Poland and Germany combined in land area.
So Europe could want Ukraine split to reduce possible economic power threat over the next decade or two.
Or Kiev could want the south cut loose since few pipelines travel that part.
But cutting the south away landlocks Ukraine/Kiev, so I am guessing Europe is cutting off the legs of the Ukraine before it can gain any momentum.
One this is certain - nothing is at it seems anymore and lying and double talk is the new global language.
I guess many people forget that the Soviet Union was involved in the rape off Poland by the Nazis. Ottoman Skorenzy or his gang could be named today by Vlad the Bloody. Let us not forget the Nazi deception carried out by the in the invasion of Poland by Hitler and Joseph Broz Stalin. I guess he must be a hero of our neo-fascist Putin. The pot calling the kettle black?
I guess you forgot about the usa dropping the h-bomb on a bunch of Japanese civilians?
Killing off the native Americans?
60 Thousand Japs (Vaporized) in a millisecond, exactly like how the money on the Dowjones and the S&P will vaporize once the Jooz drop the HFT Bomb.
Svakil must have forgot that Stalin was Georgian, not Russian.
The US has killed untold millions all over the earth since the 1980's.
It is interesting that the US State Department type posters can not deal with the widescale support of East Ukrainians for an exit from the coup government in Kiev, none of which has been voted for. Instead of dealing with the facts, several of them are blaming the sources of the news. You see, they have no argument they can make against people wanting freedom from Kiev's fascist and lunatic coup leaders. So they blame the source of the news, like if it is raining on them and they don't like the rain, they blame the weather reporter for being anti sun. So, I just skip all their posts as soon as I sense this idea that facts are not facts unless apporved by the US State Department. Ignore this childish debating tactic. As if CNN, FOX and MSNBC, BBC, PBS and others are delivering unbiased coverage.
The posters who can't deal with reality in East Ukraine have a million tears to cry because America is not the absolute ruler of all on earth. Why do they shed tears for a place and people they know nothing about? There can only be one reason. As Americans, an exceptional people, they believe that all earth's nations and ethnic groups are controlled and ordered around by them, as Americans, these posters sit and rule all earth. And when these supreme rulers do not get their way, they rush to ZH and scream and cry about Russia and East Ukrainians demanding to vote, without USA approval.
This attitude, which these posters are too cowardly to admit disgusts me. Why not just be honest and say. "We Americans are absolute rulers, no people or nation can independently act without White House approval, thus their approval". I wonder, please come back and post for me the rational ideas behind your belief in Absolute State Power centered in Washington DC that has a right, according to you, to command and demand total control of everyone. Other than you exceptional belief in your exceptional god given power, explain WHY you even give a shit about East Ukraine!
The idea of American exceptionalism reminds me of another country that thought it was 'uber alles'.
I hope the USA stays out of it.... think about it .. if texas , oklahoma , arizonia , and north carolina voted for independence from Wahington D. C. and guns were being fired both ways... we americans would not want some Russians showing up telling us what to do...
Hey, I live in NC...great idea about us declaring independence!. Who needs the boneheads in DC anyway...Oops, what are those strange black helicopters over my house.....
Actually we (the US) is in it. To the tune of $5 Billion over the past 10 years. Some of the current results can be seen here; http://spirituschristi.livejournal.com/307289.html
As US foreign policy continues to baffle the rest of the world, more and more of these types of votes end up including a significant 'Yankee go Home' vote... The only friends the US has left are those where the will of the people (i.e. voters) is suppressed by their leaders and/or bankers...
Kyle said it, others have said it, history proves it: when global economies fail, when a certain percentage of military-aged men become unemployed, WARS are started to distract and seize the people's freedoms and assets and keep those men from turning on their "leaders".
My paper reports shots fired by Ukraine National Guard and people are dead.
National Guard consists of right sector types and useful idiots as in this idiot media piece...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FF03oC5zno
cos there is only 5 thousand Ukraine military available left from change sides, awol, call in sick, and other...
About those Crimean elections (From Forbes):
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-...
you post crap
Crimea is still celebrating.
You know nothing about Crimea.
ObamaRepression, your lies are obvious.
International observers said the Crimean referendum was fair and had a high turnout.
http://rt.com/news/international-observers-crimea-referendum-190/
National Guard shooting civilians
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=W4joK6D_-Wc
'How to fire-up a dsyfunctional 'Monroe Doctrine of War and Peace', on the premise of an emaculate`d conception, warp'd?, and predestined by the USSA's quasi-divinity foreign-policy school of reeducation... innoculous to bilateral-intervention-- this synbiotic NATO`Neutrino`bomb of the 21st Century?'
The Infamous, Hillary; 'What difference does it make?-- when one has the security of the coalition... and a, council of the willing...!
Can someone please explain to me the differences between/ from embargo's, tariffs, and sanctions in a free-trade NWO?... without upsetting the status quo!
What we are doing to the Russian's via the 'Ukrainian Incident' is a 'Carthaginian peace'... kinda cataclysm! Simply a throwback in tyme, to a failed Versailles (Infamous War Guilt Clause) Treaty that brought about the greatest tragedy's in modern mankind's history-- WWII!
Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_231_of_the_Treaty_of_Versailles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic
Note: If not for the Battle of Rostov (1941/ Ukraine) their would be no NATO to worry about, for Hitler would have incinerated all the Slav's (Baltic States) and all of Russia. Stalin had the common sense to at least know when enough was enough!?!
Ps. Truman was surprisingly fond of Stalin when they first met in Potsdam (the only time), but later realized as FDR and Churchill had known from the beginning he was very deceptive and cunning.
Ps2. Truman was on his own once FDR died having been hardly briefed by the prior FDR administration, with Churchill having just lost to Attlee/ Bevin 7/26/1945/- 8/26/1952 -- ironically, when all the important post-war negotiation just started, and Stalin as stubborn as ever! Just thought I'd put these two Ps's in for fodder later-on?
jmo
thankyou Tyler
absolutely great read TYLER!!! :-))
EVERYBODY IS GETTING BRAINWASHED....
I follow the German TV station ARD's evening news program. You think they are totally objective? Hahahaaaaaa. Rest assured their reporters put the proper spin on stuff too. Case in point...the reporter said that 'only those in favor of the seperatist movement are casting their ballots today". No how exactly does he know that? Did he peek into the ballot box? They are plexi glas after all. Well, so be it! They showed pictures of only one or two lonely fellows entering the voting station...yep, that western news in the 21st century.
Two choices? Um, Where is the throw the wolves off the cliff box? The fuck the EU and the Russians and just go after the corruption at home box. Just saying Id vote for that.
If one flips between the mass media news, and the Zero Hedge views, then the pattern of votes for various kinds of comments above recapitulates the basic problem of IRRECONCILABLE SOCIAL POLARIZATION.
That aint no accident. Both of those choices suck. Niether choice solves anything.
Well, the west and the IMF should just go ahead and help the Western Ukraines that want it. Invest in a few key industries, help them get on their feet, and then when things get moving again, your 'investors' can begin to see some profit return...
Oh wait...they don't want to wait, they want their profits NOW. And to get them, they need EAST Ukraine and its industrial base...can't do a good asset stripping unless the assets are there, right?
If the west REALLY wanted to help Ukraine, they'd invest the money to BUILD the industries, and wait for their returns like any other normal 'investor' putting his money into a new venture. That's what they'd do if they actually believed in the venture's chances of success, and wanted to facilitate it.
But when the 'investor' is only interested in the seizable assets, the alarms should be going off. You AREN'T an investment, you are a target of acquisition. You are being bought, at fire-sale prices.
Fuck the EU, the US, and the IMF! And fuck big finance and all those who sold their souls to money!
I'm inclined to believe this was a democratic process by free people.
The US should respect their vote and withdraw.
Pick your poison? No No stay thirsty my friends.
Illinois seceded from common sense America and all forms of equitable government decades ago.. It is a full blow corruptocracy and openly so. And those of Illinoians unable or unwilling to get out seem to accept this as SOP. Happiness will be Illinois and especially Chicago in my rear view mirror. Focus is on leaving as soon as I can unload the house without too much of a bloodbath.
Good for them there is never any queues when I go to vote here in Canada.
So the US will not recognize a honest vote - what else is new ? Why should Russia recognize an illegal US sponsered coup government ? Putin 2, Obongo 0
freedom is a buck o five
So it is clear what the people want, but will it be enough? What is happening in Ukraine and the unrest in many areas in the world brings into focus the many conflicts that develop when a region decides to change governments often outside the recognized democratic system of voting.
In some cases even after an overwhelming vote such as in Crimea the whole process is called into question. Unfortunately the American civil war did not resolve the issue of succession forever and definitely was not a template for a solution that should be used in countries across the planet. Bottom-line many in politics are slow to give up control and this will not change. More on this subject below.
http://brucewilds.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-issue-of-sovereign-borders.ht...