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The Final Moments Of Flight MH-17: The Russian Side Of The Story
Yesterday, we laid out extensively what the official Ukrainian case was when it came to "proof" that Russian separatists had launched the Buk missile which allegedly took down flight MH-17; we also highlighted several glaring inconsistencies and questions that still remained open after the "incriminatory" YouTube clip release. So far, any international response has been muted to this hastily prepared evidence of Russian involvement, although the day is still young.
So what about the Russian side? Below we present the key arguments made by Russia to suggest that not it, but Ukraine, was responsible for taking down the Malaysian Boeing.
As reported earlier by RIA, the Russian Defense Ministry says it had intercepted the activity of a Ukrainian radar system on the day the Malaysian plane went down in eastern Ukraine, the ministry’s press service said Friday.
"Throughout the day on July 17, Russian means of radar surveillance intercepted the operation of the Buk-M1 battery’s Kupol radar station located in the region of the populated area of Styla [30 kilometers south of Donetsk]," the press service said in a statement.
“The technical capabilities of the Buk-M1 allow the exchange of data on air targets between batteries of one battalion. Thus, the launch of rockets could have also occurred from any of the batteries deployed in the populated area of Avdeevka [8 kilometers north of Donetsk] or from Gruzsko-Zoryanskoe [25 kilometers east of Donetsk],” the ministry said.
Then we go to Itar-Tass which reported that civil flights in the air space of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions cannot be performed as the relevant communications infrastructure was destroyed there, a source from the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) told ITAR-TASS on Thursday.
“Kiev operates all air traffic control services and it is unclear how this plane (the Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 that crashed in eastern Ukraine near the Russian border Thursday night. — ITAR-TASS) could appear in the area,” he said.
“During the combat actions in Donetsk’s airport the communication tower, a part of the united air control service was blown up,” he said adding that “planes cannot fly there.”
On July 8, Ukraine’s State Aviation Service banned all flights over the Donetsk and Luhansk regions aiming to provide “adequate safety and security for all flights of civil aircraft in favor of state aviation.
Meanwhile, Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council took a decision to close the airspace over the area of the so-called anti-terror operation to commercial flights three days ago, Rosaviatsia reported.
This goes back to our post from last night in which we wondered just why and how did it happen that flight MH-17 diverted from its usual trajectory to fly over what was effectively restricted airspace. This also is the topic of a follow up piece by Bloomberg released overnight in which it was noted that "Malaysian Air Flight Took Route Avoided by Qantas, Asiana:"
Qantas hasn’t used the route for a few months, said Andrew McGinnes, a spokesman for the Australian carrier, while Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said it has been detouring for “quite some time.” Korean Air Lines Co. and Asiana Airlines Inc. said in statements they have been avoiding the area since March 3.
One hopes that all lingering questions about the flight path, and where the instructions to change it came from, will be answered when the contents of the flight black box are released.
And finally, as RT reported, the national governor of the Donetsk region, Pavel Gubarev, admitted that while the separatists indeed are in possession of one BUK missile unit, it is not operational, and even if it was, it would be unable to reach a height of over 30,000 feet without central radar guidance which the Donetsk region does not have, once again suggesting that a Surface to Air Missile, if indeed one was used, came from the Ukraine side. Surely it will be very easy for international monitors to validate this report.
We will ignore circulating reports of two Ukraine jets that may have followed the Boeing as there is, at least for now, zero direct or circumstantial evidence validating this story aside from one Twitter account which has since been deleted.
In brief the plot thickens, and all that matters now is whose propaganda, read media outlets, will be more persuasive although in reality even that is moot: in the echo chambers of ideology, most people already have their mind made up as to "who" the shooter was.
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Is this a Russian website or do y'all just hate Obama that much that you would suck Putins dick.
I'm disturbed how quickly people jump to conclusions here. A lot of U.S. media companies are actually showing surprising restraint when it comes to directly blaming one side or the other, as opposed to ZH. Oh my God! Ukrainians were anxious to produce a "film" blaming the Russians? Well, that's all the evidence I need, counselor! Bet the victim's families are also satisfied by this extensive investigation and, of course, ZH's role as judge, jury and executioner.
There are a lot of Bush voters who just want to see Obama go down, and I don't doubt for a second that plays a big role. But the rush to judgment is sad, especially for a website that supposedly tries to resist mainstream bias. ZH's hat is obviously in the Putin ring at this point. Highly doubt we'll see anything but RT copycat articles in the coming days and weeks.
"There are a lot of Bush voters who just want to see Obama go down"
If you think most of are even sucked into the Right/Left false dichotomy, You're starting point is very flawed.
Nobody is in Putin's corner. Who has something to gain here?
(is there a ground offensive going on somewhere did someone say?)
"Nobody is in Putin's corner?" Have you been reading this site? I would say the articles were written by RT but I wouldn't want to besmirch the reputations of the good people at RT. ZH made up its mind whose side to take yesterday. Everything is just rumors at this point, but the articles as well as the comments to the articles definitively show which "side" people here have chosen, and which parties to blame. It's curious how many suggest Russia has some sterling kind of reputation and deserves to be trusted. U.S. doesn't deserve to be trusted either but that certainly doesn't make Russia's narrative any more reliable by default.
WTF are you talking about?
ZH posted the "story" as given by the US MSM side the other day. Russia out out their "story" today, and it's here today.
I think it a good thing that people are hashing the shit out of all of this as it'll make it tough for the storytellers to spin utter BS.
Rush to judgement is common today. Critical thinking skills haven't been taught (purposely) in the schools for some time.
You can go to pro Dem/pro neo con type websites where they jumped on blaming the Russians immediately.
Not good.
Possibilities:
- someone screwed up - on either side
- someone did it purposely - so they could blame someone else
- Questions to ask: What's the evidence ? Who benefits ?
U.S. media showing restraint? Please show me one unbiased headline that even suggests the remote possibility that Ukraine could have done this....Virtually all US and UK media point Russia and/or the rebels - the more unbiased of them suggest that we will have to wait for the results of an official investigation to know for certain wether it was Russia, or the rebels that did it, and the part that Russia played in it.
U.S. media showing restraint? Please show me one unbiased headline that even suggests the remote possibility that Ukraine could have done this....Virtually all US and UK media point Russia and/or the rebels - the more unbiased of them suggest that we will have to wait for the results of an official investigation to know for certain wether it was Russia, or the rebels that did it, and the part that Russia played in it.
Some other discussion boards have "spam filters" whereby one can put a poster on "ignore" and not see their stuff again. I so wish there was one here.
That Enzite should have made you a lot more mellow, son.
Emerging Evidence Points to #MH17 Being a Ukrainian False Flag
The only thing I'd add -it was mostly CIA/MOSSAD False flag.
Russians and the Anti-Nazi resistance have no reasons to do that, the US and their Kiev slaves on the other hand - have every reason to do so. Always look who stands to benefit from this "incident" and that should be our main clue.
It could be a warning shot across the bow for the world to keep the USD. The elite knows who did it and that's all that matters. Netherlands are an important piece of the ECB and EURUSD puzzle. There's royalty there which is deeply entrenched with the Brits. Rothschilds don't need to worry about the UK and the US but the EU looks interested in what the BRICS have to offer, in particular Germany. But if they had hit the Germans on the head with this, it would have turned the Germans off the US even more and Putin would have no problem telling Merkel that there's a place for Germany among the BRICS.
New treaties are being drawn all over the place. It's not rocket science to predict where this is going. Unfortunately for Mme Lagarde, the IMF (Rothschild Dollar Print Emporium) will not be part of it. The loans from the BRICS bank will be backed with collateral.
When is the last time an American bank was audited for collateral they supposedly hold in a warehouse? At least the Chinese pretend to make an effort. They're also buying gold by the truck loads.
"Surely it will be very easy for international monitors to validate this report."
Not if the FBI gets involved. But they have a challenge here as they are unable to tape off the scene and destroy all the evidence.
ZH is hardly operational for me this morning, though now I am on an operating page.
I checked the Rebel sources this morning. They admit to engaging Ukrainian SU fighters for the last few days and claim at least one confirmed shoot down. These missile attacks are all MANPADS, totally unable to reach a commercial jet at cruising altitude. The one captured BUK the rebels hold does not have the BUK radar unit, so there is no way to get firecontrol or search information.
We know for fact, and the videos exist ,and Ukraine does not deny, that they sent several units of BUK operational systems with their radars into their southern attack zone and also maintain BUK systems behind their lines. So two possible BUK complexes could have been used by them. Radars are both mobile with BUK and Ukraine has a fixed site too. All this points to 100% ability of Ukraine to track, do fire control solution and fire to this plane from more than 3 different missile sites. The rebels, it is proven that they have one BUK without radar, the captured one. I honestly do not know if they could have fired their BUK without radar or a firecontrol solution and hit this plane.
I noted that the Russian air defense network reports the exchange of radar information and radar tracking used by the Ukie BUK complexes at the time of the shoot down. America admits they have the evidence of the missile launch. So we have Russia with the radar information of BUK use and America tracked the launch via orbital intelligence.
Ukraine has had some problems controlling their forces as many units are not Ukie Army, but political party militias formed by RIght Sector. They are known to have at least one anti aircraft missile system in their units. Most likley more than one. In Kiev some fear was expressed in parlimament over a month ago that militia's were not under control of Ukie army and held BUK systems, it was already a fear back then that a missle could be fired WITHOUT consent of Ukrainian army command. It was the Ukie army that was fearful of this.
My best non-political guess is. The Rebel units would have had to perfrom a miracle of anti aricraft warfare to hit that Jet Liner. I believe that the Ukrainian army would not shoot down an Air Liner on purpose, most are honorable soldier. But the political militias? They have proven to be uncontrollable lunatic, and they do most of the fighting. I say 10% chance Rebels, 30% chance Ukie Army, 60% Ukie Militias. This is based on evidence and motive, nothing more. I just can't see how a captured BUK with no radar complex could engage a target at that speed and altitude with no fire control solution. Only Ukrainian BUKS have their radars, and three complexes exist.
Motive and ability, in a criminal case, cops consider that first. Rebels gain what by shooting an airliner? How do they do it with one BUK launcher without radar and fast high altitude plane. Ukies gain everything in way of NATO support if they claim rebels did it, and they had every ability to shoot 10 jet liners down on that day, like ducks in a row. Motive - Ability
Is it fact that the BUK that the rebels have (or supposed to have) did not have radar on July, 17th? That is, it may not have had it when it was captured but could it have been acquired afterwards? I suppose a way to test this would be to have an idea of what the necessary radar system/component is and how likely it could be acquired by the Rebels.
"Rebels gain what by shooting an airliner?"
Yeah, motives seem pretty lacking here. Russia and the rebels pretty much had momentum on their sides. It's not like Russia can use this to justify sending (more) support; Ukraine and the West, on the other hand...
I wonder how much energy has actually been put forward with Russia/Malaysia relations. From just over a year ago:
The potential of Russian and Malaysian relationship can lead to larger results of cooperation – LavrovRead more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2013_07_11/The-potential-of-Russian-and-Malaysian-relationship-can-lead-to-larger-results-of-cooperation-Lavrov-1907/
As Jack said, you always need to start with a motive. The Anti-Nazi resistance not only doesn't (didn't) have any motive, it has exactly the opposite motive, meaning they'd never want for such a disaster to take place. The same goes for the Russians. Moreover, even if they did have (which they didn't) the radar for the BUK, then they would still need a bunch of capable, trained operators, plus the airline traffic coordination. Personally, unlike Jack, I would say that there is literally 0 chance that the resistance did it. On the other hand, Tel-Aviv, Washington and Kiev had every reason to get this done.
Motive: ?
The rebels do not have any sort of airforce for any of the Ukrainian factions to attack.
@Jack Burton
you may be interested to know what has been found out "recently" about the historical facts which are a big challenge to the infamous "Gleiwitz incident" (supposedly false flag) that is often cited as THE event to have triggered WW2.
Fact is Germany has had threats from Poland all through 1939 and Poland made treaties with England and France that they would protect Poland in the case of a German attack. Poland performed much ethnic cleansing of Jews and Germans and Germany even built refugee camps for these refugees coming from Poland. Hitler made the pact with Stalin to allow Germany to defend itself from Polish aggression if and when that should happen.
Germany finally declared war on Poland and German troops entered Poland on September 1st, 1939. England and France declared war on Germany as per their treaty with Poland on September 2nd, 1939 which is the offical date the war turned into a global war (hence WW2).
The financiers of Hitler's NSDAP and Hitler's infrastructure and military buildup also financed the military of England and later-on Russia. They bought the war and played both sides, also turning Hitler Germany and Stalin Russia against another.
We know who is financing the Ukrainian efforts already. Putin's Russia is restrained and muted which can only mean that Putin is NOT in the cabal's pocket.
Where is the black box?
So we need to back up and start at the beginning...
Plane takes off and flies over a war zone with a flight restriction. Then it... whoa, wait-a-minute there, back up.
^^^that's the sole root cause of this situation^^^
The plane flew over a fucking war zone and was shot down... well, sorry about that. To be terribly blunt about it... doesn't matter who shot it down - IT WAS FLYING OVER A FUCKING WAR ZONE - both sides probably took a pot shot at it.
Now, ask why did it fly over the war zone?
I do in some sense agree with you. The first and worst crime was "Who sent this plane right over an active Anti-Aircraft and Aircraft war zone." It is a proven fact than missiles were being launched an planes shot down in this airspace. It was known that a red hot situation was going on with Ukraine, Russia and the Rebels all on hair trigger. So we fly into this with a commerical jet???
That is question one, someone needs to fucking hang for this.
They used another Malaysian jet for this. If they had used another carrier, it might not have been this obvious. Also the numerology aspect has to be considered and the timing. The ink on the BRICS bank papers hasn't dried yet and they're shooting down a plane to send a warning. For all we know, the plane could have been exploded remotely or a US missile shot it down.
Up To 100 Passengers on Board Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 Were Top Experts In HIV/AIDS
http://tinyurl.com/kkljb2d
Faster than you can say "12 microbiologists killed..."
(just google it)
I dunno, how about a change of propaganda tact...yes the Ukraine did it.
And ? So ? Only Russian untermenschen question the rights of the Ukraine.
Worked before. Shot some Jew tourists over the Black Sea. Bunch of Dutch faggots and chinks in a plane.
What's the difference. Time to drink some non-methanol vodka punch. Ukraine stronk. Bandera no have Luftwaffe, now decadent west luftwaffe kaputt.
ZH should just call itself RT this morning and be done with it already.
Ah, and I love all the people here saying "how could the Russians do it?" Right. I wouldn't expect dirty tricks from a man who was once in the KGB or anything like that. Because, you know, Russia is so super honorable, and if their history has demonstrated anything it's how reliable they are with presenting information truthfully to the public.
Let's just all jump on the "thinly-veiled excuse to hate Obama" bandwagon! ZH - because disseminating propaganda rapidly and without substantiated evidence ain't just for the MSM anymore folks!
Cui bono. sp? Who benefits. Putin does not want all out war.
I highly doubt America wants an all out war. If they wanted one, they could have one any time, day or night. Russia and America are giant trade partners. This "war" is more like the "war" between Eurasia and Eastasia than any real war. After all, isn't Goldman consulting both Russia AND its American clients? The real sides are the people, like those who died just recently, vs. their governments. No other parties are involved.
Dear clueless Government Toady,
Russia has absolutely NOTHING to gain from this, while Ukraine and its puppetmaster, the US, do.
Even though you are a True .gov Believer, try not to think emotionally - if you can.
Actually, I'm saying we don't know who's to blame. Seems you're doing the Kremlin's work for free. Just baselessly asserting that "Russia had nothing to gain from this" only wins you a victory in the court of public opinion but not in any real court I've ever heard of. But being that ZH has taken upon itself the roles of judge, jury and executioner, blame away, with or without evidence, if that makes you feel better I suppose. The reality is, even if the Kremlin didn't directly sponsor this they still have much to gain by covering up the separatist's tracks if the separatist's DID cause this, and if you can't see that fact I don't know what else to say.
Will you PLEASE stop lumping every commentator and the entire ZH crew as being a monolithic entity?
I agree with you that it's not prudent to brush off possible motives. In this case, however, I think that rather than saying that people believe there iare no motives for the separatives and Russia that they (the monolithic ZH) are really asking: "Where are there motives?" and not really hearing anything. Does the west's MSM provide any theories?
"The reality is, even if the Kremlin didn't directly sponsor this they still have much to gain by covering up the separatist's tracks if the separatist's DID cause this, and if you can't see that fact I don't know what else to say."
Any Kremlin action is defensive, not offensive. That is, Russia would be looking to prevent a loss moreso than any gain on any action here.
With regards to the separtists "causing" this, I believe that this is a stretch. That is, they can be blamed for some sort of reaction but to have masterminded this is highly unlikely. I'm not seeing this as having any strategical implications for them engaging in this. I would, however, find it possible and probable that it could be a blunder; and even if intentional, knowing it was a commerical airline that posed no threat, that if could have been shot down as a warning to East Ukrainian/West air control, which takes it all back to THE QUESTION: Who allowed the flight to deviate where it hadn't previously and where no other carriers would?
I have to wonder whether MH370 wasn't part of this storyline. Paint the Malasian Air pilots as unstable: Malaysia is an important geographical area such that painting them on the "axis of evil" wheel is of strategic value; whether that part of the game board is landed on now or later is yet to be seen, though it's for sure that it's on the game board.
The simplest explanation is that this was an accident by people poorly trained. If not that, it's a huge cloak and dagger conspiracy.
oure generalizations are silly, boring and quite frankly stupid - you have no word for equipment owned by the Ukranian military that was capable of hitting the passenger plane and all the other coverups at the Kiev flight control
stop wasting everyones time
Here is another take on it from the Daily Mail
According to Dr Igor Sutyagin, Research Fellow in Russian Studies from the Royal United Services Institute, believes that MH17 was shot down by rebels based in the 3rd District of Torez.
The plane was mistaken by rebels for a Ukrainian government resupply flight.
He said: 'There is a Ukrainian mechanised brigade blocked by separatists near the Russian border. It's blocked on three sides by separatists and behind the brigade is the Russian boarder, so they can't get out. The Ukrainians try to resupply them from the air by transport aircraft.
'Now, the pilot of MH17 said that he "felt bad" and wanted to change course to get out of the danger zone. But several kilometers to the south is a Ukrainian Army heavy transport plane, an IL76, or Candid (bit like a C17) , which has the same echo as a 777 on a radar screen.
'The two planes came close. They tried to shoot down the transport delivering supplies to the brigade. They believed that they had been firing at a military plane, but they mistakenly shoot down a civilian airliner.'
If it is true that the IL76 was there on a resupply mission it might have been shadowing the 777 but it seems unlikely that it would be at 33,000 ft.
An IL76 was shot down with on the 14th June, Vladimir Inogorodsky, spokesman of the Donetsk People's Republic, confirmed that Igla missiles (truck mounted) had been used.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696847/They-shouldnt-f-g-flying-There-war-going-Ukraine-intelligence-officials-release-phone-calls-claim-PROVES-Russia-shot-Flight-MH17.html#ixzz37q2nRyjJThis sounds plausable, but what did the Rebels use to shoot it down with? Rebels hav no radar complex or mobile radar unti for the BUK. They have only one missile launcher captured from Kiev's forces and WITHOUT any radar unit. So this story lacks ability. Only the Ukrainian army has the missile launchers and radars to have engaged this plane. You can't shoot down a plane at that altitude and speed without a fire control solution.
All Rebel shoot downs have been with ligh AA guns and with hand held AA missiles. Low to low medium altitude. The jet was way beyond rebel range.
Also, the DM is a paper I read every morining. It is a total outlet for British intelligence and government. This is where you go to find out what the British government wants the public to know, not where to seek unbiased articles based on fact.
Jack, appreciate the comment. First off, there is no benefit to the Russian side by shooting down this plane. We must assume that Russia's military would not accidentally shoot at a commercial plane and therefore since Russia has no benefit in this, we can exclude Russia's culpability. Nevermind the fact that US is quick to point fingers and seek to involve Russia in this. Bullshit.
BRICS made a major move last week in setting up their development bank. Russia is credible in China, India, Brazil and South Africa to be a financial partner. That speaks volumes for Russia and for Putin.
This is the equivalent to a coup d'etat. There is a new world order emerging but it is clearly not what the drafters starting with Kissinger had in mind for the American Empire.
The plane was shot down to send a warning. The cabal is warning the world that they're in control and will not give up easily. Expect more of the same and more finger pointing, more back channels with CIA /Blackwater/Mossad operatives and so on. More false flags to mislead the people and more propaganda against Russia.
Germany has a choice to make as well and quickly now.
in the entire war of words the only thing that counts is what the Germans believe the Germans in industry, Unions and on the street - not Merkel - she will have no choice) - once they confirm the Ukranian military and traffic control coordination- Obama's gambit is over
for this risk to be taken they must be very desperate or a major mistake - the detailed coordination of the MSM and Obama is telling for a planned attack
daily fail is a mi6 mossad rag
united services institute is run by chatham house clowns all tavistock rothschild owned.
fail
Firstly, it remains to be proven that the rebels have the capability (either the equipment of the technical expertise) to shoot down a plane at 30+ thousand feet.
Secondly, it is highly unlikely that a military supply plane would (or even could, considering the short distances) fly at that height. They would be at a much lower altitude, I would think - perhaps even low enough to attract rebel hand held missiles. Even if they shot at a low flying plane and missed, how likely is it that they missile would have the capability and the settings to intercept a much higher civilian aircraft? Doesn't add up to me. But then I am not an expert.
Thirdly, where does this fellow get the flight conversation that he quotes - no one else seems to have it.
I smell MI6 fish here.
BRICS bank is all that matters now.
The economies of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa are geopolitically very important. Half the world's population lives in these countries combined and their trade and cultural agreements extend to probably 2/3 of the world's people. All these countries have massive amounts of resources, infrastructure and manufacturing to back their indvidial currencies or agree to settle in ONE single BRICS currency.
The USD is finished as reserve currency and that is the single biggest issue the American people should focus on. Why can't Brazil or India afford to give all their poor people unlimited and cheap credit, EBTs and Section 8 housing? Because their countries are not exploiting the rest of the world by way of imposing the world's trade be settled in USD.
It's a game changer and the US will be a very different place in 10,20 years from now.
Welcome to the real world!
While this is all likely to shape up I'm just not seeing it as being able to carry on with the status quo of perpetual growth.
"All these countries have massive amounts of resources, infrastructure and manufacturing to back their indvidial currencies or agree to settle in ONE single BRICS currency."
I don't agree that things are all that pretty for them: remove Russia and it's a dog, pure and simple.
If population size was all that mattered then India would be kicking ass, and, clearly, it's not: many tried pimping it, but it's really been heading downhill post 2008.
India and China, the two largest contributors to that pooled population, are NOT well endowed with resources. Infrastructure and manufacturing is nothing if the resources aren't there to support it/them: I don't see them being able to support what exists now, let alone grow it. Big growth Ponzis happening with these two.
Brazil is running out of steam. As China's growth slows so too will Brazil's. And just like with China, when it becomes apparent that the promises won't make it to everyone there will be instabilities popping up: I can see China keeping somewhat of a lid on instabilities for a while, but Brazil? And Brazil is geographically quite detached from the others (and in the backyard of the current reigning empire).
Russia has resources, which is why news is now permeated with articles/"news" about it. Of course, having customers is one thing, having customers who can PAY is yet another. I suppose that China and India will be able to be paying customers for a while, but long-term is another issue (as energy resources diminish the price/costs HAVE to go up, thereby only making the issue harder). Russia is likely to amass gold and other elements of wealth as its general population's way of life deteriorates along with Russia's depletion of its resoruces: is history repeating itself here?
South Africa does have resources but, stability isn't a word that works in the same sentence. Pretty sure that the rest of the world will pick it clean, but I highly doubt that SA will benefit much: likely look more like a money laundering business than any nation-wealth-building activity.
The U.S., as a "country" (location), still, and for quite some time, will continue to be one of the richest in terms of physical/natural resources: of course, this doesn't mean happy days for all for ever more, just that when rationing hits, and it will, things will last longer than for other countries. I'd mentioned this as an exercise in testing this to see what things would be like if all imports/exports stopped, which countries would likely hold up the best: I've held that there are three: Canada, Russia and the U.S.. (location, location, location and the US has a lot of great real estate [no, not talking Manhattan! I'm referring to arable land]).
Some 80% of the US's fruit and vegetables come from California, a state that it appears is staring into the abyss of a hundre years' drought as are vast areas of the South and Soutwest to the point that they might soon be faced with a gigantic doestic migration problem. Kansas a major wheat provider is suffering as well. America is using up its water tables much faster than they can br refreshed and their rivers are suffering from upstream damming and drought, and then adding gas fracking to the mix which uses and destroys vast quantities of fresh water (gotta get that gas out so that they can sell to Europe!). The seas surrounding America (as with other countries) are becoming warmed and acidified threatening their supplies of shellfish and becoming polluted with oil, chemical wastes from their massive chemical and agriculturtal concerns, and radioactivity from Japan threatens their fish and other game on the Western coastal areas.
I don't give America much time.
You are forgetting one important factor! The USD is hurting the rest of the world! 98% of the profits are earned by Wall Street which is choking the people all across the world with their greed.
Take the USD away, take Wall Street and corporate greed away and there is more left on the table for the BRICS to grow much much further on their own.
Just take a look at where the fucking paper pushers, the debt parasites have pooled and stashed their wealth!
Do you think it is a coincidence that NY and London have the most expensive real estate on the planet? The money that's "earned" in NY and London is on the backs of millions in the BRICS who work hard and pay hard into the pig's trough.
BRICS know this very well and their progression cannot be stopped. It will be the demise of the USD and the IMF, FED, WorldBank cabal and their precious worthless FIAT.... UNLESS they make a drastic move and reestablish the gold standard or something equivalent to it! Also, massive haircuts and defaults on all this worthless debt they've created which can neither be serviced unless new debt is created LET ALONE ever be paid off.
I'm exploring ways to become a shareholder in this BRICS bank after the reset. That's the future!
http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140718/190997537/Kiev-Deploys-Battalions-of-Buk-Air-Defense-Systems-Near-Donetsk-.html
NATO AWACS have recorded it all. both of them, which were flying the dsmr timr over there.
Indeed! That is a point I keep making. The US military knows what happened as they watch this battle zone with multiple intelligence resources. Every time a radar is switched on or missile fired, it is all recorded. If the US can prove the rebels did it, they only need release their evidence. Why is it not forthcoming?
"Jack Burton" is clearly a Russian Spy.
no he's not, he writes some pretty good stuff
he does lean east a bit though
but the good looking avatar makes up for it
if only we knew what our governments are really up to
we might have to be more careful what we say soon
I seem to recall making a similar point during the lead-up to the invasion of Iraq: how the fuck could anything get smuggled out of the county when it was, at the time, the most heavily surveilled place on the planet. I suppose that providing proof might expose intelligence capabilities; then again, it might be that the capabilities really aren't there (perhaps defeated by the Russians)?
Odds are that the Israelis know, but, unfortunately, they're a bit too busy to share info right now...
Both Obama and the Pentagon guy went out of their way to say that the missile was fired from rebel controlled territory - not that rebels fired it. It's pretty obvious that this will boil down to 'who' shot the missile with finger pointing from both sides.
they got burned in Syria on sarin gas - Seymour Hersch smoked them out - same will happen here
A fog of war event. If the innocent were Pakistanis or Afganis and the missle was a drone delivered device....we would hear nothing of it. Since the victims were Dutch this event gets huge attention.
The event was a tragedy. The propaganda is almost as bad.
Ultimately no one will answer questions because if one goes back far enough (say to February) there is blood on everyone's hands.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/07/putin-hacked-emails-russian...
There are an army of Russian-paid bloggers feverishly working this story for the Kremlin benefit.
Use your heads, people.
FUCK British tabloids!
It's like this, yes, and so?
US has a MUCH bigger budget; and, until recently, it was able to inject its networking devices throughout the global electronic space. (understand the control exibited throught the UN and NATO; the Russian's don't have near that level/scope of control- not saying that the arc isn't curving that way, but the facts and realities of the world TODAY still have the US with the upper-hand on/of control).
The Guardian is a "tabloid?" What kind of surveillance state revelations has ZH broken recently, might I ask?
The Guardian is not a tabloid, it is actually the Pravda of the UK based NWO nomenclatura.
Far more elitist than the FT or the Times in heyday of the British Empire or such wannabees as the NYT and WP. Like Das Reich or Das Schwarze Corps. Not saying that they always have the same bent, but you will know what the West's "highbrows" expect from their station in the world of today and everyone else...
Buzfeed had a similar article, as did a bunch of other outlets:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-...
Doubt we'll see any articles like this on ZH. I wonder why...?
The very first sentence of that article accuses Russia of invading Ukraine! Why waste time with more claptrap? Russia did not "invade" Ukraine. They have thousands of troops and their only warm water port in Crimea. Ukraine is the border of Russia, like Canada is the border of the US. ....think Russia might be a little concerned? What in the hell is the DC Police State doing over there fomenting revolution? Our border is thousands of miles away.
Not really news. It is well known that Putin spends millions on image making. That's politics. Any State sucks. The history of Communist Russia is a nightmare that can't be cleaned up (Even though FDR's administration attempted to) Nowadays Russia appears to be heading towards more liberty, especially economic. The US is heading more towards a Police State and less economic freedom. We don't know who did this nasty deed and if it was an accident. I think it is because of the loss of respect for the US gov't that many are giving Putin the benefit of the doubt, and being familiar with the fact that our media and gov't distorts and lies doesn't help.
There is also an army of US State Department-paid bloggers feverishly working on this story for the White House benefit.
Between the two armies, truth is pretty much blasted.
I think that the heat will start building under this fellow, Daniel Ivandjiiski.
When you choose to support Russian Scumbaggery then you get what you deserve.
so you support what he US is doing?
how ironic for obama to state that the plane was taken down by a Russian missile
like our weaponry has not done some pretty evil blunders
care to make a list?
Obambam sucks as well. Oligarchs suck.
Why are YOU on the wrong side of this? Is it the money that you cannot refuse?
Given that the "Russia did it" script was ready almost before the plane hit the ground, it has all the hallmarks of another false flag. Given that Putin has been pushed hard from a number of fronts to go to war and he has kept a cool head and avoided that, it is easy to believe that this is another such attempt. Que bono? Certainly not Russia nor the Russian separatists. Our attention is being drawn to Ukraine, so we can be sure that we are not supposed to be watching elsewhere, like the Middle East slaughter of the Gaza open air prison, the desired war with Iran, the takedown of the $USD or the invasion from the south and progress towards gun confiscation in the US (Obama yesterday proclaimed as illegal sales of Russian firearms -- pretense "sanctions" on Russia ha ha).
RULES TO ZH COMMENTING:
1) Any problem in the market, geopolitics, or anywhere else has been caused by the US government. The US government is an extremely powerful entity which has the ability to influence all world events, large and small. As a corollary to the above, anything anti-US government (whether it be Bundy ranchers or Putin) deserves praise and respect.
2) Anything reported in the real news is fake and has been produced by a US-government led conspiracy. In reality, the exact opposite is true. (NOTE: DOES NOT APPLY TO ANTI-US NEWS STORIES)
3) If any poster disagrees, first claim they are paid by somebody else to post on the site (it doesn't matter who is paying them, but a good one is "Ben Bernanke").
4) Note how long the commenter's handle has been registered on the site to attempt to damage their credibility.
5) Link to fringe websites for information. No actual news websites can be trusted, unless they are state-controlled, non-US news organizations.
6) ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to engage any argument on its merits and endlessly cycle through steps 1-5 again and again.
What's even more amazing, too, is that people here are actually saying things like "Russia is so much more trustworthy" and "Russia has absolutely NOTHING to gain from this." Sheeple. Of course superstates have plenty to gain from creating controlled "chaos" along the disputed border regions of their territories, have none of you idiots read 1984? I wouldn't be surprised if Russia and U.S. orchestrated this in tandem with one another. I certainly don't buy into this "it's all 'Murica's fault! It's all the Ruskie's fault!" bullshit you see here on this site. This website is falling victim to the same propaganda it supposedly tries to redress.
Word of advice: the government, whether that be Obama OR Putin, is NOT here to help you.
Thanks for the post.
Sheeple are too dumb to understand that their own government is screwing them on a daily basis. Sheeple live on EBT cards and cannot connect that their silence and peace is bought by Wall Street and DC Vichy. Sheeple turn on Fox News or NBC News and see 24/7 anti Russian propaganda which will ultimately shape their perception as it did 100 years ago against Germany.
Sheeple will NOT question the FED or the USD ponzi and sheeple will certainly NOT ever try and comprehend what the hell is just happening in their very lifetimes.
All EBT cards and financial chicanery aside, Russia isn't such a splendid place to live itself.
No, but it's the real deal. Without reserve currency status the US would look like somewhere between an African shithole and a Latin drug empire. Not to forget the massive pseudo church presence and religious cleansings. As long as they're all fed, they're quiet. America is already going downhill fast and furious.
Ok, lets look at the presidential approval ratings for both countries.
I'm waiting.
Well, it appears the ZH crowd has managed to influence those numbers too. What reach.
stick you 1984 book in your ass, we a A WAY OFF FORWARD 1984.
It's a new world order and you better catch on quick.
Good grief, shut up and BTFD.
buy the next almost alltime fucking high. no ww3 over the weekend - monday is up 3% across the board.
Ah the ad hominems. ZH had been the target of MSM ad hominems as a "controversial" site (and for that I congratulate those who created the site). However, the most level headed, academically gifted people I've met have opened their ears to other explanations other than the MSM because the MSM has not been straight forward, or even relevant- about...well anything.
ZH does get credit for opening up discussions on a more tangible level for people to apprehend... but since the MSM isn't honest, the "conspiracy theories" regardless of how far out they are- this is the fault of the MSM. People do know when they're being lied to.
Maybe the screenwrites need a pay raise. What about a union for the 527 worker bees? Since the bees are dying off and all. It can make one very bitter when the 1% makes billions more than they do for the trouble to come up with the most amazing b.s. from the b.s. factory in the world before their jobs are too offshored to FoxConn and a call center in India.
And for the sock puppet armies, I'm very sorry. $1 of worthless American Pesos for your soul? They all must be very desperate.
does anyone still seriously believes in putin ? the guy scored a massive own goal with this one, for the first time watching him speaking one could have clearly seen cracks in his propoganda.
By the way yet another journalist stepped down from Russia Today, expect many others to follow
Why does ZH feel the need to carry water for a dictatorial oligarchy that spies on and kills its own citizens? I thought that was the issue it had with the West?
There was a time ZH offered a salient view on financial matters, but ZH has now officially become a hive of useful idiots.
Are you referring to Putin Russia or Obama America? I'm confused.
Best financial advise is to convert the USD fiat into physical gold and silver NOW before the US defaults on its debts.
The US is no where near default on ANY debt.
They are very near default on ALL of the Constitution and rule of law.
However your suggestion of gold/silver purchase does make sense when there is now enough printed US dollars that if they were set afire they would most likely ignite the earth into a small star.
and you long to be the queen bee?
I agree in many respects and have said as much but
ZH offers an alternative view with regard to us geopolitics which it would appear our government attempts to suppress. It is worth testing your preconceptions. Actually the best stuff comes from GW.
ZH has gotten it wrong with respect to the macro view it seems to me - they advocate for they recently obsolete stockbroker/car salesman. Railing against the broken markets which have always been a scam.
OK, I'll assume you really want an answer and you are not just a bot from the State Department. USA spies on its citizens and has the death penalty, plus SWAT teams break into people's homes and shoot people without warning, plus you have to pay bribes to some state troopers who think seizing your car will be great for the year-end bonuses at headquarters. Russia spies on its citizens but does not have the death penalty. Russia is hard on journalists but that is because organized crime does not like to be exposed (that's who got Litvinenko). Putin has 82 pct popularity rating per a respected international polling org, while Obama is lucky to scrape over 40 pct. A lot of Putin's bad rep came from people like Berezhovsky, who was the poor little rich kid who fled to London with his ill-gotten oligarch gains, where he was thrown out of an English court because the judge was tired of his lies. Meanwhile Putin has been Mr. Infrastructure and has rebuilt Russian roads, rail, ports, schools, hospitals, bridges, power plants, kindergartens, and pensions with all of the oil money he supposedly grafted away. Good luck with that - those programs and infrastructure are expensive. Russia's oligarchs have too much influence over the government and think their s*** doesn't stink. Oh, wait, that was USA oligarchs, and etc.
Some of us are a little tired of the one-way screaming going on in the rest of media-land.
Then go live in Russia you punk
Is this in the 'Rules for Radicals'?
Smell BS: "re in possession of one BUK missile unit, it is not operational, and even if it was, it would be unable to reach a height of over 30,000 feet without central radar guidance which the Donetsk region does not have, once again suggesting that a Surface to Air Missile, if indeed one was used, came from the Ukraine side."
The original BUK uses a mobile 9S18 Tube Arm/9S18M1 Snow Drift surveillance radar for target acquisition that is linked to the TELAR fire radar. The BUK M1-2 only needs the TELAR.
Thus no "central radar guidance" is necessary.
The most complete and detailed analysis of the #MH17.
Which proves that it was engineered by the Kiev's regime. It also proves that the anti Nazi resistance had no capability of launching this attack . All videos and assertions by the west and Kiev are debunked beyond any doubt.
I agree, the falcon is a great resource for detailed reporting on the civil war in the Ukraine as well as the ongoing conflict in Iraq.
website also under DDoS...
blank page.
It strains credulity to believe that pro-Russian separatists would target an aircraft flying at 33,000 ft. and headed into Russia which is only 20 -30 miles away.
This definitely does not pass the smell test.
Consider the case of Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 which was shot down over the Ukraine in October, 2001 (during military training exercises).. At that time, relations between Russia and the Ukraine were much warmer than they are now and Putin initially stated: "the weapons used in those exercises had such characteristics that make it impossible for them to reach the air corridor through which the plane was moving."
However, the Ukrainian government eventually admitted responsibility for the downing and paid compensation to relatives.
I wouldn't put much creedance in anything the Russian or Ukrainian governments say at this point.
Why does anyone think that the USA, Russia, Ukraine et al are not working this together? It is one worldwide mass conspiracy controlled by our masters! Bend over and lick the boot, serf!
I can't believe there are assclowns here that think this is "country vs. country". What a bunch of tools.
If I'm mad at you, and you're mad at me, then we aren't mad at our leaders while they play golf, eat expensive food, and bang even more expensive hookers, at our expense, while they have "high level discussions and negotiations".
Then they laugh, all the way to the banks that they own.
I long for the day, when we had a president who would want to bang a hooker.
Not certain about the truth you are trying to communicate, but seems to me that calling people assclowns and fools doesn't earn you many ears.
Not certain about the truth you are trying to communicate, but seems to me that calling people assclowns and fools doesn't earn you many ears.
I wonder if there's a link to MH370 in all this?
Anything is possible since no debris or bodies were ever recovered from flight MH-370.
Perhaps a forensic examination of each of the human remains needs to be done to determine identity, actual time of death, blood chemistry, etc. to confirm who in fact these unfortunate souls were and if there is any relationship to the passengers of flight MH-370.
Russia’s Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov is asking 10 simple questions:
TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES
1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?
2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?
3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission? When will such a commission begin its work?
4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?
5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?
6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?
7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights, especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?
8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?
9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?
10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.
Could MH-17 be the Gavrilo Princips moment of our current ever increasing Cold War divide?
From Syria to Iraq to Mali to Ukraine, we are in a Balkanized world.
And all it takes is a match to light the tinder box.
Malaysian matchstick in the country of Bubka pole vault land.
Who is this Princip fellow...Ah yes, that Franzi, a frightening bore, taking a ride in those Balkan dreadfuls.
We will enjoy our Regatta at Kiel without this pedestrian distraction. I hear the telegraph to the Moon has been perfected. Jolly ho, and cheers to progress.
From associated press http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE_PLANE_REBEL_COMMANDER?...
So was this the original 777 but stuffed with decaying dead bodies flown over restricted airspace and then blown up with a bomb already on board. Let the false flag conspiracies begin
No reason for decaying dead bodies.
We have refrigeration nowadays.
I don't think so....That plane will show up later......but It's signature when sent on it's mission will be changed, to what.....only the CIA knows for sure.
Fresh off the presses. Exukrainian Map
http://www.use.com/533c19e7b3a33759fc2c
.
No, we do not want to go to war against Russia. And we are still watching the genocide being set up in Gaza. http://www.activistpost.com/2014/07/netanyahu-and-rahm-emmanuel-agree-ne...!bhXgT7
Did the UK bomb passenger ships or planes while it declined as a World power...inquiring minds must know.
With the black box supposedly in the possesion of the russians what do you think the odds are of the data being lost due to a hard drive crash?
If the Russians have a black box it will be the only thing stopping Ukraine from deleting the ATC records that incriminate the Ukraine government.
We saw violent protests in Peking and Kuala Lumpur...i want to see angry Dutchmen demanding truth from the USA. They knew it first, you can't trust the Slavic slime in Kiev and Moscow. Where is our truth of Flight MH17 ?
The people of Europe know paedophile Putin stoops to such lows, America knows but covers for him !
Weakling Obama, Enemy of Truth and Freedom ! Show that America knows that Russian scum shot down our boys on Flight MH17 !
Obama, hireling of Russia ! Gasslave ! Worse than German industrialists !
The USA despite being a complete non-party to this incident has already ascertained the launching of the weapon that brought down MH17. Will those findings be lost due to a hardware malfunction ?
if i had to think of the strangest scenario - it is the following. sometimes i am an expert - this time, i'm just a guy reading news and really have no idea. (no sarcasm).
putin is not stupid enough to order this being done. and - he probably has enough control over the 'rebels' to prevent it.
the rebels don't have to fear anything from ukraine, ukraine is a joke.
but - russia planted the seed in the ukrainians that for some reason - that plane was worth shooting down. either they shot it down from within their own territory, or they managed do get it done in 'occupied by rebels' territory.
then it's russian fault.
but - equally as likely (and we will never know the truth - because you still don't even know who shot jfkingk)
is considering the cia and us and black ops - they convinced the uke's to get into russian 'occupied' territory and do a false flag.
what do YOU think? who is the latest of the false flag guys - and is the ukraine .gov in a shit spot already or what?
i'm ashamed of the united states department of defense, of state, the mic.
the fact is - what putin said yesterday was correct. if the cia and others from us hadn't been stirring the pot to create death and destruction, this would not have happened.
even if it was trigger happy russian rebels - we did it. we made the mess.
Non party? who the fuck started the coup? we did.
OIL. OIL. OIL. and pipelines. speaking of which, I bought Boardwal today. a tad late, but still way down and rising nicely. dividend cut, crushed.........51% owned by Loews. free money. BWP.
What we are seeing now are all of the players jockeying to find out what evidence their opposition has, so that they can control or manipulate the release of their own data that they themselves have. This is most likely going to end as un-resolved as to who actually fired the missile, as both sides will continue to blame the other, with neither side having un-disputed proof, and both sides finding fault in the other side's data.
The people of the Netherlands will demand and get the truth...America knows ! It shields Russia to save its special relationship with Germany and Sweden !
When will the Liar Obama, beholden to Russian pressure, tell Europe that Russia attacked an unarmed airplane with terrorists ?
it does not matter what is said at this point. this is the start of world war 3 its not going to be like other wars. my 14 yr old son will be drafted soon. all retirement funds will be converted to Treasuries. Germany will eventually slip away along with turkey.......
"WE" will not know nor feel the effects for some time do to policies that kep us dumb. We will hear about it in terms of raising the flag and talking tough. But stocks will be ok an all will look good. And even 2016 election will seem normal . but just about then. WE LOSE BEFORE 2018 the fruit we have sown will not be able to be covered up. I see so many 60 plus yrs olds walking around proudly. As if they have no idea on what they have done. I hope that earth it self sucks them up and creats all they have touched to experience sever pain No longer do i think there is a chance we will survive. I know we must now think about a future without these systems that have doomed us repeatedly over 2000 yrs. We are about to have blood on all of our hands. We will have a hate in our minds, and we will be left standing in complete denial becuase of mantel breakdown. We in the US have been granted through others pain 3 generations of oblivion. We have no idea on what we have done. WELL we are about to reap what we have sown I hope that as it all comes down as IT WILL we who will be fortunate enough to have survived look hard at zietgiest.com Lets stop beating around the bush The plane was on purpose.If it's going to be World War, there must be nukes.
My Dutch brethren ! Protest at the American embassy !
They have the Ear of Freedom ! The NSA !
But they cower in fear of Moscow !
The Dutch do not waver ! They will get the truth ! Obama knows !
Join the Obama Knows ! Movement against Russian Agression in Europe !
First we blockade the American Embassy to get the TRUTH about Flight MH17 !
Then we will occupy the Russian Embassy ! Like in Kiev !
Obama Knows ! Movement for the Rearmament of Europe against Eastern Agression !
I do not believe the comparison with the 1914 Sarajevo events that led to WW I to be accurate.
In 1914, there were massive standing armies in all of the Europe, and the doctrine, having learned nothing from the US Civil War, and heavily influenced by Moltke`s theories was in each and every case axed on attack.
Today, we have massive standing...brigades in the best case, the states are in deep financial crisis or worse (ie France).For the anecdote, France has only 16 Leclerc tanks fieldable.The rest is boxed and kept for pieces.
US grasps desperately at straws to push Putin into some sort of Cold War, thinking that will resolve all their troubles.
It will not, even if Russia occupies Novorossiya and/or Ukieland, because the problem in US is so deeply entrenched in the current state ideology (mondialisation/diversity/destruction of middle class/abandonment of the rule of law), that some semblance of domination or not of European markets would be a foregone conclusion anyways.
Europe has its own troubles, heavily connected to the US monetary policies, and appears to begin a strategical turn away from the axis US-TelAviv .
Putin did not invade the whole Ukraine immediately in the aftermath of the euromaidan clownery because he does not want to be the last person holding the gigantic turd the economical and social Ukraine represents.
He has NATO and US exactly where he wants them; embroiled in never-ending partisan warfare in Novorossiya, and condemned to pay ukrainian oligarchs regime ad vitam aeternam.
And this sock-puppet show with an airplane...good for sheeple, if they needed them convinced for whatsoever reason, I dont think Merkel will run crying to Obama, `The bolcheviks are coming!`
By the way, Im somewhat flabbergasted by the attitudes of the readers of ZH to Obama.
This person is the best thing that could`ve happen to the Free World.
Laziness, gross incompetence, lecherousness, extreme indecision - and wait till a real crisis appears.
Who would you prefer amongst the eligible candidates? McCain? Hillary?
At least Obama hates Netanyahu.
Slaves often hate their masters.
Yet, they still obey.
+ in 1914 informations spreading was not similar with today, now a BS can go around the world within hours & be killed in same time ( i.E timestamp on video, spainbuca tweeter closed account etc... ) web can be out of control whatever .gov does cos many ppl on internet know better than the gov how it works & can bypass jamming gov stuff.
information MUST spread to keep things calm under the critical level.
Im sure many on here may support this. I will support and help the united states military storming the white house and over throwing this government. Along with the senate and congress. And as they clean house, PROSECUTE corps and banks with chemical death . announce new elections and lets start over. that's the only saving grace to my earlier comment
IMO, Both are culpable. Russian separatists having shot down 3 ukrainian military planes prior to flight 17 would have given ukraine alot of free press and wiggle room in propagandizing their side. So what they might have done is allowed malaysian flt 17 overflight knowing full well they may be shot at by the russian separatists. My question is why would a country at war allow a commercial airliner to fly into harms way if not for its own sinister advantage? No commercial flights should have been allowed to fly that airspace given the situation on the ground. Surely the Ukrainians should have detoured them around their airspace if they knew their was danger. Flt 17 traversed almost the entire country before being engaged at the border. Both countries are culpable. Ukraine knew what might happen and russian separatists jumped to shoot at the first aircraft which would cross its airspace.
IMO, Both are culpable. Russian separatists having shot down 3 ukrainian military planes prior to flight 17 would have given ukraine alot of free press and wiggle room in propagandizing their side. So what they might have done is allowed malaysian flt 17 overflight knowing full well they may be shot at by the russian separatists. My question is why would a country at war allow a commercial airliner to fly into harms way if not for its own sinister advantage? No commercial flights should have been allowed to fly that airspace given the situation on the ground. Surely the Ukrainians should have detoured them around their airspace if they knew their was danger. Flt 17 traversed almost the entire country before being engaged at the border. Both countries are culpable. Ukraine knew what might happen and russian separatists jumped to shoot at the first aircraft which would cross its airspace.
Check the dental records and DNA of some of the dead passengers from MH-17. You will find that these are the dead passengers from MH-370 which was hijacked by the same folks who remote-controlled it's flight over Ukraine.
Janet Learner will be given custody of the MA17 black box for safe keeping.
Australia's Prime Minister is an international embarassment for that country. Never seen such an imbocile as a nations leader, he makes GWB look articulate, intelligent and debonaire.
WTF were Australians thinking when they elected this guy???
They were thinking about their mortgages, the housing market, Dancing with Stars, cooking/dating/DIY shows, football, the INVASION of 'the boat people'... list is too depressing and banal to complete.. but mostly they were reacting to the (IMHO) deliberate headfake, 'sellout', deception, lies, corruption and apparent incompetence of the previous Labour .gov. This 'counterparty' of controled opposition gives the impression of blue/red team democracy, but just like the Demoncrats in the US and ex-NuLabour in the UK, are given the reigns every so often by the owners to destroy public faith in the process, and push through legislation that is even too fascist for the conservatives. A bewildered, frightened middle class worried about not making ends meet, and the 'degeneration of society' is easy to herd. 'Bipartisan' Westminster-based adverserial politics has degraded to worse than a bog wrestling tournament at a dog and pony show. People are fed up, but like the rest of the world, the system is now fully corrupted, broken and subject to regulatory capture by BigCorpInc.
Australia is a critical military asset for the US hegemons, and those that plan a global gulag. At this point in history, and in keeping with my declaration to not invest any power or energy in dissapointment, or 'missing what I perceive that I don't have', I'm focusing on being grateful and thankful for what I still have. Today that means not being bombed back to the stoneage for our oil/rare earth, and as we're already in the US pocket, we don't have to worry about a coup (at least short term). AusGov and USinc are besties in the Pacific Pivot and my guess is that like in previous wars the Aussies will welcome the Yanks ashore to build more and more bases and store assets here. As the Pacific becomes too Fukued to inhabit, and the rest of the world realises that the Southern Hemisphere is one of the last habitable place on the planet, we may even come to be be glad...strange world...
Time to go, I'm getting gloomy...
Peace
Difference between US and Ukraine sepratists..... the US do these things deliberately, others by accident.
On an article on MSM of all places, the pro Russian rebels said there are bodies that was already deceased on board.
So the plane was stuffed with cadavers and flown remotely?
Link for this?
Dead bodies already on on plane link.
http://globalnews.ca/news/1459910/plane-victims-long-dead-not-fresh-says...
most funny part would be ( if it is real, but i don't think so ) to overcount corpses so they got 400 corpses for a 298 passengers flight. that would be fucking akwardly awesome lol
Bad Internet connection. Sorry
Bad Internet connection. Sorry
Sorry
!
Michael Bociurkiw, spokesman for the the OSCE's 25-strong team in Ukraine, tells C N N that bodies of the passengers are "starting to partially decompose in the hot sun".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10974050/Malaysia-Airlines-plane-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html
U.N. World Health Organization spokesman Glenn Thomas and former President of International AIDS Society Joep Lange were two of the passengers. One report said more than 100 delegates to the AIDS conference were on the plane.
http://www.ibtimes.com/malaysia-airline-updated-passenger-list-three-infants-among-298-dead-1632140
But...
A possible glimmer of good news: Obama said earlier that nearly 100 HIV researchers were feared dead. Chris Breyer, the incoming president of the International AIDS Society, said he and his team were trying to confirm the final number but they "think the actual number is much smaller".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10974050/Malaysia-Airlines-plane-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html
As for many "facts" on History, we'll never know the truth.
Meanwhile, lots of people are being killed by missiles every day... Without deserving any attention from the MSM.
This "AIDs" business is such the alibi. Sorry, no discredit to those who suffer from it- they're being exploited to death, literally. And sorry to get off topic, but I think they were up to a little more than "AIDs Foundation" embezzlement.
But one passenger CHEAP flight between Amsterdam and Malasia is $2069 or 2100.
http://cheapfaresindia.makemytrip.com/international/listing/exIndia/RT/A...
That's before the trip between Malasia to Australia, the destination is approximately $2000 for the CHEAP flights.
http://cheapfaresindia.makemytrip.com/international/listing/exIndia/RT/M...
So together, for 100 "AIDS" exploiters each will be $4069 for that trip, $406900 altogether. FOR JUST ONE WAY. How fast does this add up to millions?
Now! The CCR5 NULL Mutation blood transfer has cured HIV/Leukemia.
http://bloodcell.transplant.hrsa.gov/transplant/understanding_tx/transpl...
The crooks won't openly discuss the cost of that null mutation blood transfusion.
How many people could get this ccr5 null mutation, or even cloned- will $500,000 get the patients? Why spend it on the "researchers" panhandling excursions on tax payer money?
Something has been wrong with the story for a long time.
Well they did not feed those PAX from MH370 so they didnt live.
There's this video which is being published by some msm in my country.
It says it's about the flight MH17 departing from Holland... THe last images of flight MH17.
It says the video was made by "a passanger".
"A passanger"? "A passanger" INSIDE the plane which has been taken down by a missile?
Was he the one survivor with his cell phone and the video in it?
http://www.diarioregistrado.com/internacionales/97558-las-ultimas-imagenes-del-avion-abatido-antes-de-despegar.html
Amazing things happen. ONE passport survives pristine while several huge buildings are reduced to fine powder. Osama was getting younger by the years (and by the videos). This one video comes out from flight MH17.
And I don't believe ONE thing the govts and the MSM say. Not ONE thing.
May they bomb each other (all their gvt buildings with all of them inside) and leave the rest of us be.
sorry about the double post- site was crashing when I did it and couldn't get back to delete it.
I strongly don't believe that Putin did it.
It's not Russia's style to cause collateral damage when they're fighting others over oil interests.
Just ask the Turks - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/8782370/Kremlin-...
Here's what I think happened. The flight was warned NOT to go over Ukraine.
But other sources said that Putin's plane flew over the same ground on his way back from the BRIC meeting? So he could've been the intended target.
The flight went over Ukraine anyways.
From what I know about war, you don't fuck with war in the same way you don't fuck with a caged, rabid lion with rabies.
During conflict, people do what they can to get out of a warzone. They flee their homes. They vacate. What did people do in NYC right after 9/11? They left. They got the fuck out.
Moral superiority isn't going to save lives or bring back the dead.
I'm wholly disgusted that the US got involved wiht Ukraine in the first place. Hunter Bidens' position on the board of Ukraine's largest gas producer only demonstrates how disgusting these politicrats are. And i hope the world will see it for what it is.
Sorry, I don't have any jokes. I wish the media would stop portraying Americans as "Anti-Russia".
I'm having trouble with zerohedge site again tonight
very slow
but I'm patient
I'm sure TPTB
want our attention else where
http://youtu.be/_QZLuu_8du4
Warning to Americans and the world. 1 min long.
Desperate to find a pretext
MH-17 flight: Another tragic incident to be exploited
http://failedevolution.blogspot.gr/2014/07/desperate-to-find-pretext.html
I think the most likely option is the rebels shot it down by accident so the big question is why an air liner was in that area flying at that height?
Was it a complete accident or was the plane set up to be a target?
When you have a room full of evil people, many of whom have a long track record the answer is always - who benefits, who gets harmed.
The shooting down of this commercial airliner, if it wasn't a dumb accident, is only of benefit to the Ukraine/USA.
A dumb accident would have to be first choice in this, BUT the strange flight path of this plane that puts them in harms way is inexplicalbe, given it took a 'safe' route in the previous 10 flights.
MY bet is that this plane was deliberately given a path before or during its flight that put it in a dangerous location in the hope that sepratists would shoot it down.
The next question in that scenario would be was false information put out that made the Sepratists believe this was a Ukraine military plane?
The flight data recorder will show if the flight path was set at the beginning or there was a route change during the flight, likewise cockpit voice recorder will reveal any directions given to the pilot to alter heading.
Just saw Zerohedge page being shown on RT news. Way to go !!!
This was the page about the alleged youtube video "proof".
double post
Another hypothesis.
It have become apparent that the flight MH17 was escorted by 2 SU25 shortly before entering Novorossiya missile envelope, which then sharply turned away and left.
If I was an untrained radarist at the Buk-M1(Kupol) console, I would`ve told myself, `Well gee, here`s the An76 thats going to supply that cut off mechanised brigade near the russian border,Im going to interrogate the IFF...oh, there`s no squawk, Im surely going to get a medal for that, Hey guys in launching vehicle down there,you have my data, initiate launch!`
So, if an interested party changes the flightpath to direct the plane into the most dangerous area, escorts it with 2 warplanes to make it seem as a military transport, turns off IFF...
It does not matter who fired the missile at that point.
Its only a hypothesis, as we will never know the truth, as usual.