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Recovery Of Malaysian Airlines Black Box Caught On Tape: Separatists To Hand Over To International Delegation
With the rabbit hole of conspiracies getting deeper by the hour, video has emerged showing what appears to be the "black box" flight data recorder from Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 being taken from the crash scene. As NBC reports, the men in the video are wearing Ukrainian Emergency Ministry uniforms, but a senior Ukrainian official told a news conference Sunday that rebels had taken the black boxes. This fits with reports from The Hill that pro-Russian separatists have located the black boxes for the downed Malaysia Airlines passenger jet and will hand them over to international authorities, according to separatist leader Alexander Borodai. With the US having offered more "proof" that Russia was involved, perhaps some facts from the Black Box will help clarify details in this dreadful situation... though we are not confident.
As NBC reports - recorded on Friday, the footage shows rescue workers carrying the distinctive bright orange device through a wheat field in eastern Ukraine's Donetsk region. The voice of a man who is not shown in the video can be heard saying "flight recorder" in Russian.
Rebels have recovered the black boxes from downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 and will hand them over to the International Civil Aviation Organization, a rebel leader said Sunday.
Alexander Borodai also said the bodies recovered from the crash site in eastern Ukraine would remain in refrigerated train cars at a station in the rebel-held town of Torez, 15 kilometers (9 miles) away, until the arrival of an international aviation delegation.
Controversy still swirls over the treatment of the bodies...
The news from The Associated Press came amid reports that armed rebels had forced Ukrainian emergency workers to hand over 196 bodies from the site and loaded them onto refrigerated train cars.
"Where they took the bodies — we don't know," Ukrainian Emergency Ministry spokeswoman Nataliya Bystro told The AP. Russian news outlets said the trains were bound for rebel-controlled city of Donetsk.
Associated Press journalists saw reeking bodies baking in the summer heat Saturday, piled into body bags by the side of the road or still sprawled where they landed in the verdant farmland in eastern Ukraine after their plane was shot out of the sky. By Sunday morning, AP journalists saw no bodies and no armed rebels at the crash site. Emergency workers were searching the sprawling fields only for body parts.
"We're looking at the field where the engines have come down. This was the area which was exposed to the most intense heat. We do not see any bodies here. It appears that some have been vaporized," he told reporters in Kiev on Sunday, speaking via phone from the crash site.
The crash site remains a disaster but the bodies are gone...
The US is pushing the "Russia is responsible" meme harder this weekend...
The U.S. embassy in Kiev issued a strong statement Sunday pointing to Russian complicity in arming the rebels, saying it has concluded "that Flight MH17 was likely downed by a SA-11 surface-to-air missile from separatist-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine."
It said over the weekend of July 12-13, "Russia sent a convoy of military equipment with up to 150 vehicles, including tanks armored personnel carriers artillery, and multiple rockets launchers" to the separatists. The statement also said Russia was training separatist fighters in southwest Russia, including on air defense systems.
And the rest of The West...
In a blistering article for the Sunday Times, British Prime Minister David Cameron called the attack a "direct result of Russia destabilizing a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias and training and arming them."
"We must turn this moment of outrage into a moment of action," he wrote.
In a coded rebuke of German Chancellor Angela Merkel and other European leaders who have blocked efforts to impose tougher sanctions on Russian President Vladimir Putin for Russia's actions in Ukraine, Cameron said Europe must now "respond robustly."
"For too long, there has been a reluctance on the part of too many European countries to face up to the implications of what is happening in eastern Ukraine," Cameron wrote.
Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans, speaking in Kiev, demanded that the culprits be found.
"Once we have the proof, we will not stop until the people are brought to justice," he said.
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If the boxes show that the plane was diverted as supposed "bait" there will be some mitigation. Nevertheless Putin's goose is cooked for a while I think.
cooked by the media...
Cameron you stupid twat. Stop poking your nose into someone else's business, unless you want to go back to tankers of natural gas from anywhere that will trade with us as you've just screwed a major source of imports.
Have you forgotten the lights nearly went off a few months back, but for the tankers. You fuckwit.
PS You look ministerial to NO ONE. Not just British people.
My favorite website for following this Ukraine mess (since it's updated continuously), has been down for over a day due to a denial of service attack:
http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.en/www.segodnia.ru/news or www.segodnia.ru/news
From their Twitter feed:
"It seems that honored our evaluation activities from enemies. Segodnya.Ru site is currently undergoing a rather powerful DDos-attack"
Thinking this morning of having been a juror on a US federal grand jury. If this case had been brought to us as of now, I would have voted probable cause and an indictment against the rebel militia, but would not, based on the public evidence available, have voted for a conviction in a trial.
I see nothing but inference on either side, though some of the inference is fairly strong even if circumstantial.
A point that interests me is the supposedly post-dated recording of the supposed conversation between two insurgents discussing the shoot-down. If this is authentic it strongly implies Ukrainian involvement. But still, not conclusive as to the act.
Point of information: Is it possible to receive email copies of replies here?
Smoking Gun leads right back to. . .
The Amsterdam airport, same place the Underwear Bomber was allowed on the plane
MH17 Working Group Established
Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema told Ukrainian Pravda newspaper on Friday, "Militias in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics do not have Ukrainian air defense missile systems Buk and S-300 at their disposal"..."After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and S-300,” the general prosecutor said. “These weapons were not seized.”
LOUD AND CLEAR! The Anti-Nazi resistance did not do it and did not have the means to do so. Case closed.
Putin's a fucking dead man, the west is going to crush him and the Russian economy now.
Enjoy your new friendship with China, assholes. You deserve each other.
Let them eat iPads has officially experienced brain death on Sunday, 07/20/2014 at 11:58 ZH screen time. There is officially complete and irreversible loss of brain function.
Does he have a living will? Do we pull the plug, or do his relatives want to continue life support?
You should get back to licking Putin's ass as your attempt at humor is a complete failure.
If I am licking Putin's ass you must be licking Obamas. Got it. Get your face in there deep.
Both are folks not to be trusted. Putin appears to be a better strategist than our own overlord.
This is why the Putin ass-lickers here are so fucked up. They always assume that hatred of Putin means support of Obama.
ZH has gone full retard, you're a bunch of fucking clowns.
"Putin's a fucking dead man, the west is going to crush him and the Russian economy now."
This is what you said.
If you don't have faith in Obama (or support him), how ever the fuck is the goal above going to be accomplished? By whom? How is he dead? Who will crush him and the Russian economy?
Eat iPads,
Are you a Jew?
Don't feed the shills....
Now go back to Maidan, or join Natzi Guard and get killed in Donetsk
RT reports the Self Defense Forces have two black box recorders. They vow to hand them over to international delegation. Okay, that is proper and how it should be done. These boxes must not go to the NATO or EU or to Rump Ukraine, or to the USA, or to Moscow. The real question is, "who can be trusted to examine them and release the information?" When the entire European System may be at stake. Already the USA call this a game changer and the entire European system must be handed over to US control to save Europe from Russia. Perfect, this is just what the USA wants. So how could you let any AMerican or EU agent touch these things? The East has their issues as well. They have so much at stake that they can't be allowed to process the information and release it.
So who in fuck CAN be trusted? Nobody as far as I see it.
Interesting video and pictures of the planes wings and fuselage showing the splinter damage in the skin caused by the explosion that brought it down. Claims are made that these damages, small and narrow appear more like the rod packed warhead of an air to air missiles, than the larger more high explosive pieces a bigger ground to air missile carriers. Simple physics here, less explosive on the tiny air to air missile. Seems longer thin rods work best as shrapnel, in the bigger Surface to Air with much more explosive, it can use bigger jagged pieces to blow the plane out of the sky. From what I saw, the fragments were small and narrow and made streak like damage.
Warning, I never worked on missiles in the military and I don't know the truth. But the plane has real evidence that can prove what type of missile knocked it down. It is known that two Ukie SU fighters were on scene. Witnesses on the ground saw the three aircraft, fighters and Jet Liner. Other's with access to radar information say the same.
Ukie's need to hand over all Air Traffic control information, but they have taken it. We will see if the rebels hand over untouched the balck boxes.
According to McCain, he will demand war if the Ukie's can convince him that Russian Rebels did it. Obama says much the same only in different terms. Also, back in 2001 Ukraine shot a Jet Liner out of the sky over Crimea area, they were practicing Anti Aircarft operations, and shot a fully loaded passanger plane out of the sky. Russia did the same back in the 80's. My own US Navy shot an Iranian airliner down in broad daylight over the Persian Gulf in the 90's. So, this is not unique, and no war has been started because of an air liner shoot down, as long as it can be claimed as an accident. Before Obama and McCain take us to nuclear war and kill us all, they shoudl consider past history and how diplomats cooled down the hot heads and maintained a form of peace.
when the othe 777 went missing it was all about how they have corrosian problems that can make them breakup in mid air.
This time, no one wants that to be an option
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2579758/U-S-air-travel-watchdog-...
Pic of wing for those who haven't seen it: http://s7.pikabu.ru/post_img/2014/07/19/1/1405718276_1114661565.jpg from following website (scroll down to see):
12-30, Analysis of the type of injuries on the body of the Boeing. It is alleged that was shot down, not "Buk-M1". Fragmentation rod warhead mainly used on missiles air-to-air thanks to compactness. In air defense prefer to use OF BSC (high-explosive)
Also a poster here (scroll down to see pic of BUK being fired) says they think it was an air-to-air missile since nobody filmed or saw the contrail from a ground-to-air missile. File under "The dog that didn't bark":
Boeing could not be brought down from the ground missile Beech [BUK]. Because when the rocket Beech soars to a height of 10 kilometers, powerful it leaves traces in the sky, which can be seen for many miles around and rises to a height of 10 kilometers. There is not a single frame of this post, at a height of 10 kilometers. I'm sure if someone saw this pillar of smoke, it would necessarily photographed at least on the phone. But no one saw the pillar of smoke, of a height of 10 kilometers. The implications are clear, no missile launch Beech was not. Photo launch Beech. The second missile self-destructed - so the flash.
That is a brilliant point about no witness seeing the smoke trail of a large BUK missile rising to 10,000 Meters. Even the tiny little MANPAD shoot down videos show a large and clear smoke train from the ground to target made by the little shoulder fired missile. I have seen videos of all types of large AA missile being fired. The smoke trail of a BUK fired at a plane at 10,000 Meters would be not only huge, but would give away the point of launch until the winds pushed it out away from the launch. It is indeed a great point. I have heard of many who saw the plane come down. NOBODY speaks of a large missile trail. Unless that evidence comes forward, this makes the Air to Air missile from Ukie SU fighters more plausable.
Some have also suggested a bomb onboard, I wonder if that can be ruled out, and if not if it's more or less likely than an air-to-air missile.
Having just googled buk missile launches and watching the videos, i have to sat you are correct. NO-ONE could miss that exhaust trail.
Jack, interesting points about the type of damage to the plane. I’m not aware, are you, of any solid information that can prove the shoot down came from a ground-to-air missile. Strange that within minutes of the world’s learning about the tragedy, video and explanations of how the BUK launchers are used instantly appeared. One of the White House’s major pronouncements was that the plane was brought down by a surface-to-air missile. But like everything else in this event, no evidence of any kind was presented.
And, now, the only evidence that NATO and the West are using to blame the separatists is that the wreckage fell on an area “in control” of the separatists. And that ain’t enough.
The tragedy of it all, is that the West’s motive is war. And we are asked to believe the authorities who have this motive and who have been caught in the past repeatedly lying us into conflagrations.
Send the flight recorder to ZH for a live stream playback of the contents.
1. Post it on the internet for open source inspection. Keep original HW, and allow International body of inspectors to have non-destructive access on secure premises.
2. It's too late now, but the Rebels should have had a Coroner on site and cameras rolling, to determine if the passengers died from the crash or were cadavers.
I would trust the kin of the passengers, diverse in many ways and would be like herding the proverbial house cats. They wouldn't sell out, I wouldn't think.
I still say the plane was BOMBED and not shot down.
Of course, they'll misplace half of the wreckage and bury the other half under concrete on a military base before a legit investigation can take place... just like they did with TWA800 and the Murrah Federal Building.
Vaporized? They are pulling that bullshit again?
Just like Flight 93 "vaporized"......
Perhaps. Perhaps it had an external attachment, as described in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XPEz0d1rWI
Stop, just stop...there were no planes...period!
I love how you can read the news and in two paragraphs in the same story the politicians are bitching that the bodies are being taken away from the crash site to who knows where and for who knows what and they are being left to decompose in the field.
Its a true adage that its difficult to be a good liar and remember what you have told to whom
If the Russians really had run the operation, they would have used the scanning radar to ID the plane rather than just the lock-on radar.
To be sure, competence is up there with truth on the list of war's first casualties.
Best theory is that Victoria Nuland did it.
I seem to remember something about snipers in Kiev shooting folks on both sides to, shall we say, stir things up.
While Ukraine news coverage is the Malaysian airliner and the attack on Gaza is smothered with Israeli propaganda, the tragic attacks on civilians in eastern Ukraine are being overlooked by the coverage America sees.
Primarily on Russia Today (RT), the tragic videos reveal the attacks from Ukrainian army units on city after city of Ukrainian residential areas. It’s obvious Poroshenko’s scorched-earth attacks are meant to target civilians and their homes and communites.
RT reports:
…Disregard of civilians by Kiev troops saw the number of Ukrainian refugees fleeing to Russia reaching 110,000 people, while 54,400 others were displaced within Ukraine, according to stats from the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR).
…A report by the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs says over 4.5 million civilians remain in the war zone in Ukraine.
…Russia, which announced a state of emergency in six of its regions due to the arrival of Ukrainian refugees, has urged Kiev to take the UN’s concerns into account.
The point is, these are “Ukrainians” killing Ukrainians because the imposed junta refuses to allow eastern Ukrainians to have their own culture .
But the attackers can hardly be called Ukrainians since they are an army from an illegitimate government formed after a takeover of the elected government. As in Israel, these attackers are supported and led by Jews (Poroshenko, Yats and the designated oligarch-governors who have been appointed to oversee the east Ukraine region). As in the invasion of Gaza, the United States with its powerful Jewish control, is funding these holocausts.
The domination of people to keep them from self determination as in the Gazan election of Hamas and the overturned, legitimate government in Ukraine, is the despotic demand that created the American Revolution.
“The refusal of King George III to allow the colonies to operate an honest money system, which freed the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, was probably the prime cause of the revolution.”
~ Benjamin Franklin
And make no mistake, the world is now in the hands of the money manipulators.
As E. Ukraine’s Lugansk goes from a busy city to a ghost town, as Donetsk and Lugansk fear a humanitarian crisis as the US-backed Kiev junta tightens its grip on eastern Ukraine, as the US defends Kiev’s use of airstrikes on its people, as Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko says he will reduce the country’s “useless” science programs to finance the production of drones and precision weapons with US money to level E. Ukraine, as the Kiev army shoots at civilians using tanks…
…after the Kiev government burnt anti-junta government activists alive in the Odessa slaughter…
the money manipulators (the Fed) continue their advance of despotism and their stranglehold on the world.
The videos on RT expose the reality.
http://rt.com/news/171808-eastern-ukraine-civilians-killed/
If I started to tell a fairy story after my father asked me in all seriousness for an answer to some question he asked, I would know to change that story the moment he lifted a lock of hair from his forehead and asked me if I could see anything there.
That plane was not brought down by a missile. I would bet a thousand pounds to a pinch of shit on that.
It simply does not happen. Some thing traveling at 10 miles a minute 6 miles above you needs to have well in advance information of its precise trajectory and time, and you have to get it first time. 10 minutes before you fire it isn’t even on the horizon its still 100 miles away, and to do that to ensure you bring it down on the Russian borde2r is fantastical beyond belief.
Putin would never do it as he knows perfectly well it would have zero positive and a million negatives for him.
However, if we look at who might just benefit, and then look at the evidence, there are fingerprints all over this.
Everyone knows the insane Kenyan Whitehouse monkey is utterly pissed and is deranged enough to do and sanction anything, the degenerate old hag hilarious Clit on is just the same, and it has an out of control NSA and CIA to boot.
And they are totally pissed because Germany will not drag the rest of Europe into more useless pathetic sanctions.
So What to do.
Drop a plane on the border and blame Russia.
Get everyone’s ire up blaming Russia and then claim it was a Russian missile.
So prep the MSM, the running dog lackeys of the filthy grunts on K Street, handle Schiphol airport carefully and get a bomb loaded on Board courtesy a ground ops team from the CIA and complicit goons in Brussels, all nicely timed to bring it down at the right place.
Then ensure that by making changes to the route, as as so far been totally unexplained as to why. that happened.
Get the evidence to disappear from the control room, as confiscated by Ukraine to get rid of more evidence.
And there you have your answer. They were just expendable collateral damage on board that plane.
Nothing more and nothing less.
You want answers then look to the airport, analyze to the nth degree exactly what happened millisecond by millisecond on the ground during turnaround, who was in any contact with that plane, who gave any instructions regarding that planes movements including its exact time of takeoff, and every single piece of luggage that went on board and in the hold.
The only way to guarantee that plane came down where it did was to know your bomb was already on board.
Make it a Malaysian to get more sympathy and outrage and the plot is complete.
You might think I am a conspiracy lunatic, but I don’t listen to the farrago of lies and tissues of falsehoods propagated by politicians and the MSM. I just look at logic and facts. and logic and facts say that plane was not brought down by a missile as that is a million to one shot.
And Motive is 100 % on the side of the goons in the US and we all know just how compliant and willing to bend over and take up the jacksy the MSM are to spread their masters propaganda.
Now start thinking more carefully.
I get exactly the same feeling whenever I turn the fucking MSM on.
When you see the word cunt tattooed on my forehead my father said, then you can start to treat me like one.
Until such time you would be well advised to extremely circumspect on what you are about to tell me.
The last time I looked in a mirror I didn't see "cunt" tattooed anywhere, but these lying fuckers think we all have tattoos.
Now any bets on how long it takes to take this post down.
This alleged plane crash also serves as a useful distraction from the slaughter of Palestinians at Gaza.
well said. of course "out there" , that sheeple wont even consider.. look, most violently react when I try to discuss the infinite BS in the official 9/11 conspiracy theory.
but you're right, of course. there is just way too much coincidence going on here with the timing of zionazi assault on women and children in gaza..
to listen to the propganda machine ( any MSM at all ) and to drink that kool aid, well... brain death is matter of fact for those that do..
Damicol,
You are no ones cunt my friend.
Well played mate.
You've got to be fucking kidding me.
This theory is completely retarded.
And you believe a cock sucking Kenyan Monkey do you?
I think I know who the retarded asshole is here, and its not me.
" So prep the MSM, the running dog lackeys of the filthy grunts on K Street, handle Schiphol airport carefully and get a bomb loaded on Board courtesy a ground ops team from the CIA and complicit goons in Brussels, all nicely timed to bring it down at the right place."
Funny that !! It reminds me of LOKERBIE in Scotland Disaster was it like that accident?
Russia can wait, what Hussein Kenya Obanana in WH, and his CIA handlers, will put on the table.
Russia has captured enough evidence, what happened under their nose.
I suppose the whole Russian reconnaissance is around the border and GRU listens to every conversation, be it on the phone lines, or any other transmitters.
If the stupidos in the "West" will try to distort the information, Russians will leak the phone calls, like Nudelman... etc.
Am already looking forward to it (cannot write it will be amusing, because jewish run CIA simply killed 295 people, only so, and this is dramatic)
these kind of conspiracy theories look as serious as russian seperatists' claim that people were already dead arriving into the plane..
come on fellas cut der ground too air missile chitty chateror.
dis is clearly a mossad dutch airport bomb plant operation.
or air too air missile shoot down.
fuckin ground missile get real.
the mossad probably had video cameras doing live streaming so rumsfeld,cheney bush could all beat the meat in the moments before the kosher satanic explosion.
Could this have anything to do with Malaysia's recent troubles?
Bush Convicted of War Crimes in Absentia
by Yvonne Ridley | May 12, 2012
"Kuala Lumpur — It’s official; George W Bush is a war criminal.
In what is the first ever conviction of its kind anywhere in the world, the former US President and seven key members of his administration were yesterday (Fri) found guilty of war crimes.
Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and their legal advisers Alberto Gonzales, David Addington, William Haynes, Jay Bybee and John Yoo were tried in absentia in Malaysia.
The trial held in Kuala Lumpur heard harrowing witness accounts from victims of torture who suffered at the hands of US soldiers and contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan. .....
The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission is also asking that the names of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, Yoo, Bybee, Addington and Haynes be entered and included in the Commission’s Register of War Criminals for public record.".......
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/05/12/bush-convicted-of-war-cri...
The State of Israel was also found guilty of Crimes Against Humanity by the same Tribunal.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/kuala-lumpur-tribunal-finds-israel-guilty-o...
Obummer: the "bad guys" got the black boxes voice recorders. Now what?
Is the US embassy in Kiev being run by the CIA?
Every U.S. embassy throughout the world has CIA agents.
In addition, it has been reported in the Ukraine media that the CIA and FBI now occupy several floors in Ukrainian government buildings near the Ukraine Parliament on Maidan Square. Indeed, there were several minor protests in Kiev in Maidan Square about this fact just a month or so ago. (I guess it was never reported in the Western media.)
I am an American who has lived in Ukraine since 2009.
Watch out! The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) is honeycombed with CIA plants.
A Russian general (an expert of this missile system) stated yesterday that the "separatists" have NO such missile system, but the Kiev-regime military has many of them and and that several Buk missile systems were moved into the area ONE day before the crash. He added, however, that the use of this missile system is very complex (as it was designed and built in the 1970's), requires extensive specialized training to be used effectively, and therefore if the Kiev-regime troops in fact did launch a missile, it was probably done "by accident" (his words). I have read so mant articles on this matter today that I forgot where I read this. Sorry!
Further, CNN (www.CNN.com) reported that, after conferring with Pentagon specialists, Rear Admiral John Kirby and Air Force Gen. Philip Breedlove, White House officials now believe the Ukraine “separatists could NOT have operated” such a complex missile system, UNLESS they had received extensive specialized training by the Russian military.
See a calculation of where a ground missile would have needed to be fired from for the debris to arc groundward, based on mass, trajectory and speed, with gravity against air resistance. IF there was a ground fired missile (where's the contrail?), would have come from Kiev controlled territory for wreckage to land in Donask patch, and not over the Russian border. (H/T Vinyardsaker contributor Eugene-DF LiveJournal ):
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca/2014/07/evidence-continues-to-emerge-mh...
Yeah, no other pieces of the plane around, just the black box sitting all by it's lonesome in the wheat field...supposedly everyone wants the black box, but he just nonchalantly walking with it...his superiors pretty much ignoring him too.....
It appears that the Kiev regime, the U.S. government and NATO are incredibly DESPERATE to engage Russia in an all-out military conflict - which Putin clearly has sought to avoid at all costs. As an American who has lived in Odessa, Ukraine since 2009, I can report that many people in UKraine - including peiple here in ODESSA who regard themselves as Russians by heritage, customs and language- are now VERY ANGRY at Putin for NOT assisting the eastern "separatists".
This is a pretty good post
http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/breaking-part-ii-evidence-co...
We would be grateful to know that this thing didn't drop out of the sky for mechanical reasons before we launched into WW3, thank you. There might be a "bad guy" here, but let's have the evidence.
My guess is, Russia had nothing to do with the crashed plane. And I have no facts, but... doesn't that photogenic field with no signs of any wreckage look like a place some propagandist would choose for a photo-op?
With the Obama Admin record on the fudging of all financial data, covering up of all drone operations, the open statement by Victoria Fcuk Nuland, etc- how can anyone believe the US anymore!
Beyond me how the world has put up with it other than their stooges in Europe
Given that the recordings and logs from Ukrainian air traffic controllers have been seized by the Ukrainian secret service, we can surmise that if those recordings disappear, it will point towards the air traffic controllers expressly telling the pilots to fly over a war zone. This would be further confirmed by the black boxes of flight MH 17. I think both sides realise that the stakes are very high if it comes out that Ukrainian air traffic controllers gave directions for MH 17 to expressly fly over a war zone. The next aspect is a forensic analysis to find parts of the missile being fired and to trace it back to a particular party. Again the stakes are very high so we see that Ukraine has delayed the arrival of the investigators in eastern Ukraine holding them in Kiev. This has allowed them to portray the anti Kiev forces as delaying the investigation. The challenge of being able to get at the truth is becoming more and more difficult.