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Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity
Ukraine hasn’t said how it immediately knew rebels downed Malaysian plane, notes the Russian Foreign Ministry, as it unveils 10 awkward questions for Ukraine (and perhaps the US 'snap judgment') to answer about the MH17 disaster. However, what is perhaps more concerning for the hordes of finger-pointers is that:
- RUSSIA HAS IMAGES OF UKRAINE DEPLOYING BUK ROCKETS IN EAST: IFX
- RUSSIA: UKRAINE MOVED BUK NEAR REBELS IN DONETSK JULY 17: IFX
- RUSSIA DETECTED UKRAINIAN FIGHTER JET PICK UP SPEED TOWARD MH17
Obviously, if there is proof that this is so, aside from CIA-created YouTube clips, these would deal another unpleasant blow to US foreign policy.
The Russian defense ministry during its press conference which concluded minutes ago:
Here is the full clip of the Russian ministry releasing its own forensic analysis of what happened to flight MH17 (with English translation).
Russia wants to know why Ukraine moved its BUK missiles systems the day of the MH17 crash:
- RUSSIAN GENERAL STAFF HAS SPACE IMAGES OF SECTORS OF UKRAINIAN FORCES' POSITIONS IN SOUTHEASTERN UKRAINE, INCLUDING BUK MISSILE LUNCH SITES 8 KILOMETERS FROM LUHANSK - RUSSIAN DEFENSE MINISTRY - interfax
The day the Malaysian airliner crashed, the Ukrainian forces deployed an air defense group of three or four Buk-M1 missile batteries near Donetsk, Lt. Gen. Andrei Kartapolov, head of the Russian General Staff's Main Operations Department, told reporters on Monday.
"These surface-to-air systems are capable of hitting targets at a distance of up to 35 kilometers at an altitude of 22 kilometers. For what purpose and against whom were these missile systems deployed? As is known, the militia has no aviation," he said.
Russia has the flight paths of the Ukrainian fighters and MH17. Furthermore, it is asking the same question we asked last Thurday:
- RUSSIA SAYS MH17 DIVERGED 14 KM FROM FLIGHT PATH NEAR DONETSK
And wants to know why. The image (as seen in the presentation above) allegedly shows Ukraine fighter jets near MH17:
Here is a screengrab of a Su-25 fighter jet detected close to MH17 before crash.
“A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.
“[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated.
“The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.”
The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.
And asks for US proof of their accusations:
- RUSSIA SAYS U.S. SATELLITE FLEW OVER MH17 AT TIME IT WAS DOWNED... which would provide all the proof needed to show who is responsible - so why hasn't the US explained this or shown it?
- RUSSIA ASKS U.S. FOR EVIDENCE ROCKET FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
- RUSSIA: NO U.S. PROOF THAT MISSILE FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
- DEFENCE MINISTRY SAYS RUSSIA DID NOT DELIVER ANY SA-11 BUK MISSILE SYSTEMS TO SEPARATISTS IN EASTERN UKRAINE "OR ANY OTHER WEAPONS"
And went on to rebuke all the Twitter photos created by Maidan to 'prove' the BUKs were moving in Russian hands.
Additionally, as Russia noted using what appears to be legitimate photographic evidence (something the west has so far failed to provide in any capacity) MH17 crashed within the operating zone of the Ukrainian army’s self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air ‘Buk’ missile systems, the Russian general said.
“We have space images of certain places where the Ukraine’s air defense was located in the southeast of the country,” Kartapolov noted.
The first three shots that were shown by the general are dated July 14. The images show Buk missile launch systems in about 8km northwest of the city of Lugansk – a TELAR and two TELs, according to the military official.
Another image shows a radar station near Donetsk.
Radar stations of the air defense in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense MinistryRadar stations of the air defense in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry
While the third picture shows the location of the air defense systems near Donetsk, he explained. In particular, one can clearly see a TELAR launcher and about 60 military and auxiliary vehicles, tents for vehicles and other structures, he elaborated.
Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense MinistryBuk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry
“Images from this area were also made on July 17. One should notice that the missile launcher is absent [from the scene]. Image number five shows the Buk missile system in the morning of the same day in the area of settlement Zaroschinskoe – 50km south of Donetsk and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk," the Kartapolov said.
No Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense MinistryNo Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry
Buk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense MinistryBuk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry
The question that has to be answered is why the missile system appeared in the area controlled by the local militia forces shortly before the catastrophe, he stated.
* * *
Summing it all up, the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, has 10 questions for Ukraine (google translated)
The global public expects a speedy and independent investigation into the causes of the disaster Malaysian aircraft in the airspace of Ukraine.
In order to conduct an objective investigation of possible leadership of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation has ased ten questions to the Ukrainian side.
1. Ukrainian authorities immediately identified the militia as the perpetrators of the tragedy. What is the basis of such findings?
2. Could official Kiev to report all the details of using [BUKs] in a war zone? Most importantly - why these systems are deployed there, as the militia no planes?
3. What are the causes of inactivity of Ukrainian authorities on the formation of an international commission? When such a committee will work?
4. Are the armed forces of Ukraine international experts to present papers on accounting for missiles, air-to-air and ground-to-air ammo and anti-aircraft missiles?
5. Whether these funds objective control on the movement of the Ukrainian Air Force aircraft on the day of the tragedy brought international commission?
6. Why Ukrainian air traffic controllers allowed deviation of the route of the aircraft to the north side of the "anti-terrorist operation zone"?
7. Why was not completely closed to civilian aircraft airspace over the combat zone, especially because in this area there was no solid field of radar navigation?
8. Could official Kiev to comment on reports in the net, ostensibly on behalf of the Spanish air traffic controllers working in Ukraine, which shot down over the territory of Ukraine "Boeing" was accompanied by two Ukrainian military aircraft?
9. Why Security Service of Ukraine has begun without international representatives work with recordings of talks with Ukrainian crew dispatchers "Boeing" and Ukrainian radar data?
10. How were the lessons from previous similar disasters Russian Tu-154 in 2001 in the Black Sea? Then the leaders of Ukraine until the last minute denied any involvement of the Armed Forces of the country to the tragedy until irrefutable evidence showed no guilt official Kiev.
Unfortunately, there has been no response by the Ukraine side to these questions so far. We expect that there will be some answers.
* * *
Needless to say, this places Ukraine and The US (as main protagonist of "finger pointer") in an awkward position as finally someone, somewhere will have to present some actual facts instead of merely continuing the "emotional appeals" propaganda.
We expect many of these questions to be answered once the contents of flight MH17's black box are revealed and/or when Ukraine finally releases an undoctored version of the Air Traffic control recording with the doomed flight.
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Clown Boy!
if you don't have anything serious to add to the conversation please......get lost!
"Zerohedge should stick to banks and financial system. I love Zerohedge for that."
Your membership here says you have Loved ZH for 2 weeks 3 days...
A seasoned Veteran of ZH I see.
If that poster is who he says he is, he is an oldtimer (like us). Fonz and some others have spent time talking with him in the past, I will leave it to them to sort it out if he is real or a liar. I think real though.
-any more and I would agree- roll the tanks
Running with scissors is shear nonsense.
I don't believe anything the US government says. I've found the truth is normally the antithesis of what is coming from them.
Seeing as the US government is saying it was the separatists aided by the Russians we can rule that out as the truth.
" Never believe anything until it has been officialy denied " lol
All you have to do is ask why they are doing a full court press? Who is doing that, and who benefits? They obviously have a well scripted set of talking points that everyone on their side repeats like deranged parrots.
That is the sign of a MARKETING CAMPAIGN, plain and simple.
When someone needs a marketing campaign, that means they have an AGENDA to sell something. I've trained myself to instantly recognize this and know it's a lie.
Obama's likely response: TLDR
Does that mean Gone Golfing?
Did Russia release these purported photos of Ukraine military personal deploying Buk missiles in Eastern Ukraine? If not, why not? The Russians appear to even be confused as to whether there were three or four missile batteries deployed. Seems like Russian CYA propaganda to me.
The question you have to ask yourself is cui bono?
Things in Ukraine were setlling down, Putin was winning the propaganda wars - his ratings were soaring.
How could Russia benefit by shooting down a civilian jetliner?
Considering Ukraine continuosly lied about the Siberian Airlines plane they shot down in 2001 right up until they finally admitted it; I would say their record is against them...
Try 'Hooked on Phonics" maybe it will help your reading comprehension. Russia and pro-Russian separatists are not the same thing.
The MSM and most of the morons who read/watch it would answer your jetliner question with their usual penchant for emotional hysteria:
"COS THEY IS EVIL, YO! PUTIN IS THE NEW HITLER!"
You are assuming that if it was shot down by Russian supported separatist that it was done so intentionally. That doesn't have to be true. It could have been an accident. But it doesn't change the fact that it was almost certianly Russian supoprted separatists that did the shooting. Neither does it change the fact that these separatists are supported by Russia. Nor does it change the fact that Russia is intentionally trying to destablize Ukraine because a significant portion of the population wants to allign themselves with the West because of the undenaible crimes committed against them by Russia throughout history.
Is the US a perfect nation? Absolutely not. But Russia is far worse. Putin's hands are very bloody. He is the person most responsbile for the civil war in Ukraine and when you start a war, as Putin has, things can spiral out of control. Especially when you use proxies do your fighting for you.
" Neither does it change the fact that these separatists are supported by Russia. Nor does it change the fact that Russia is intentionally trying to destablize Ukraine because a significant portion of the population wants to allign themselves with the West because of the undenaible crimes committed against them by Russia throughout history.
Is the US a perfect nation? Absolutely not. But Russia is far worse. Putin's hands are very bloody. He is the person most responsbile for the civil war in Ukraine and when you start a war, as Putin has, things can spiral out of control. Especially when you use proxies do your fighting for you."
if you really beielve this, you haven't been paying attention or you are spreading dis-information. It was the "Fuck the EU" US state department who organized and financed the Nazi overthrough of the Ukrainian government. then they installed banker puppets of the IMF into power who then comenced to start shooting Ukrainians who didn't support the US led coup.
"But it doesn't change the fact that it was almost certianly Russian supoprted separatists that did the shooting. Neither does it change the fact that these separatists are supported by Russia. Nor does it change the fact that Russia is intentionally trying to destablize Ukraine because a significant portion of the population wants to allign themselves with the West because of the undenaible crimes committed against them by Russia throughout history."
I see zero facts in these comments. I see all interpretations. The closest one of the bunch (which is to say one which would be accepted by most observers) is that the separatists are supported by Russia. That's pretty non-controversial. But in your other statements, you are massively confusing fact and propaganda.
At least his technique is good - puts up a nice straw dog (... the fact that ...) and then moves right into the old Rumsfeld ask-a-question and provide the answer, proving nothing but adeptness with obfuscation.
'Merica - lets freedom ring, but doesn't introduce any factual information along with the loudly tolling bells.
If you have one brain cell, ask yourself why the plane was redirected over the restricted air space by Ukraine air traffic controllers, and why was it shadowed by Ukraine fighters?
Answer -- to make it APPEAR on a radar that it was a fighter and not a 777.
The CIA has written about how to make one plane look like another, complete with false transponder signals. Doing that involves shadowing the first plane and getting in front of the incoming radar sweep.
Either Ukraine shot down the plane themselves to frame Russia, or they INTENTIONALLY tricked the separatists into shooting down a fighter, which was really a 777. Either way Ukraine/US are responsible.
Wtf? Ukie troop movements are none of Russia's business . They are not babysitters.
What? Are you stoned? Obviously, The Russians are going to track EVERYTHING that close to their border. They probably track EVERYTHING around the world at all times, like the U.S. does.
I watched some of this Russian press conference live. It was quite impressive and far better than the claptrap being spewed by Obama, Kerry & Cameron in London.
Every accusation so far from Washington/London is against Putin, claiming he is guilty by association.
What we must consider is that IF it was the Ukrainian Army who fired the missile that brought down MH17, that goes right back to Washington. No ifs and No buts. They can't have it both ways.
The Ukes don't even take a crap without prior CIA approval.
I'm beginning to think DC may have stepped right into a steaming pile of that crap.
The Russians know this playbook from Koreanair, doubtful they would fall for this again..
Russia only has to convince other govt's, not the public.Who knows what has been
shared already with whom.
The Germans don't believe a word of the US BS, I would expect them to come out in support of Russia sometime soon if the US keeps pushing its propaganda. The US descent into madness is accelerating and Germany won't be drug down with them, and at least half of NATO will follow the Germans to the exits.
Exactly. I'm expecting the MSM to focus on the bodies and the families story's, then a year or two from now Lurch will say " at this point why does it matter".
Kinda hoping a smoking gun lands in someone's lap though...
Methinks you're right.
And for anyone to feel the need to write this, tells us just how far into the sewer our "political leaders" have descended:
"The US descent into madness is accelerating..."
Can we just get the tape of Victoria Nuland..."Fuck Malaysia Airlines..."
ZH comrades will defend Putin until the end and beyond. zzzzz
I don't think most here give a crap about Putin personally.
He seems to be the only person who is willing to lead other countries against a western/banker dominated takeover of the world, which most here probably think is not a great idea. but watdoiknows.
I won't defend the shoot down of a civilian jet by anyone but the overthrow of a legitimate .gov in Kiev is the root cause and that's on the west back, not putin
Most people here are against statists of any sort, that includes Putin. Did it ever occur to you that it's not about supporting Putin, but it's about finding out the truth before another useless war is started based on lies? Does the truth even matter to you?
It occures to me that ZH'ers will grab on to Anything that is against the US... anything, even if they have to make it up. It puts ZH's credibility in the toilet as far as I'm concerned. Just look at the Thread titles and stories. Y'all live on red meat. When I first came here I thought this was a smarter class of folk. Now I come here for the laffs.
Fuck off.
You don't get it. Let me repeat what Dr Engali wrote. Repeat after me:
"Most people here are against statists of any sort"
"Most people here are against statists of any sort"
"Most people here are against statists of any sort"
That about sums up most folks on ZH.
So sorry if that's a difficult concept to get your mind around {shrug}.
Stick around and you'll learn summat on what freedom-lovers are about ;-)
Got it! So it was the Ukrainians in the field with the candlestick holder.
I wrote this little diddy in honor of the Mulatto Messiah and his Kiev nazzees puppets:
False flag, false flag,
Who you gonna jag?
Who you gonna jag with your shootdown gag?
RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA!
In her January speech IMF's Christine LaGarde referred to the G8 as the G7. This NWO bitch already knew about the campaign against Russia, including that Russia would be removed from the G8, making it the G7, in March. While it was either a slip of the tongue or conveying a message the plans have been in place for years, now.
yep, good catch. this is a key detail that was missed by most on here.
the 7/20 interpretation seems strangely on the money although i believe it was a reference to the g7 coming into conflict with the g20, whose leader currently is russia.
in retrospect , it seems a pretty clear sign that serious conflict had been expected/planned this summer.
Australia at the moment is actually the head of the G20.
What is interesting is that next week the US is due to announce Q2 GDP. This could well signal the US has been in recession for the first six months of this year.
Very bad news eh. Looks like it might all be buried by World War 3 as Russian troops march into Ukraine.
Looks like it might all be coming together before the end of the month. Before the blame is truly sheeted home to Ukraine for this atrocity. Can Putin hold his nerve for a few more weeks and win the likes of Merkel, Hollande, Renzi & Erdogan over to the BRICS?
good catch, thanks! looks like the chairmanship of the G20 passed to australia this past december.
it still is interesting what lagarde said though. with this is mind, it seems like she may instead have been referring to the G8 without Russia (G7) versus the G20 with Russia, hoping that the IMF would come out on top no matter what.
Now almost seems like she was hinting at a trade war between G8 and G20 economies, perhaps hoping that the G20 will expel Russia and join the G7 in economically isolating them, which would strengthen the hand of the IMF and weaken the BRICS.
still trying to make sense of it all- should be a useful case study for future cryptic speeches.
there were photos distributed right after the incident showing small rocket parts (smaller than BUK) in a debris field, had seen them on at least 2 totally different websites.
that was not BUK debris but air to air debris.
might be it was from another crash site then it shows agitprop was prepared before or very fast.after.
might have been from the MH17 crash site then it is astonishing that these pictures cannot be found any longer.
The more I hear the more I doubt the BUK scenario. They start out saying the plane was too high (30k+, while the BUK tops out at 22k).
The CIA was creating videos of Osama bin laden for years after he died on December 15, 2001. Won't be difficult to create a few more videos showing that Putin is involved. The demonization of Putin, who stopped Obama's war in Syria based on lies about sarin, continues:
Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist Seymour Hersh has published an article demonstrating that the US government and President Barack Obama knowingly lied when they claimed that the Syrian government had carried out a sarin gas attack on insurgent-held areas last August.
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/12/10/pers-d10.html
Seymour Hersh on death of Osama bin Laden: ‘It’s one big lie, not one word of it is true’http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/27/seymour-hersh-on-death-of-osama-bi...
But but but The CFR Says Seymour Hersh is full of it! http://www.cfr.org/media-and-foreign-policy/digging-into-seymour-hersh/p...
I mean, if it's from the CFR, it MUST be true!
Huh ??? We need another MH flite shot down over Syria to blame the Syr Gov ???
@sate3: Malaysian Airlines flies over #Syria after the Ukranian airspace has been closed [AR] http://t.co/iaRmDtIzwM via @Aliqtisadi_SY
.
Splendid. Splendid.
I'm now finding it harder than ever to discern which communist leader to believe. It is why character more than anything else in elected officials matters.
Personally I think the sadest thing is that we simply can't trust what our elected leaders say anymore, in fact we pretty much have to doubt everything. We all know that their are sociopathic leaders spread across the world and that unorthordox methods are sometimes the only option available to our government, we get that, but if it is for the greater good or safety of the country then it's far easier to digest if discovered, however distasteful. Unfortunately most conflicts are driven by the greed of the corporate machine and the self interest of the politicians involved and NOT NOT NOT the countries interest. It's hardly surprising that politicians are becoming paranoid of their own populations but then again their own populations arn't necessarily loyal to where they reside anymore because the ethnic mix is becoming so diverse.
Perhaps the general perception was that the West had the moral high ground and a general sense of decency but unfortunately the Bush and Blair comedy act completely threw all of that away. Now the West still talks the moral high ground as if nothing has changed but now many other countries just view us as aggressive hypocrites with no sense of decency.
A Direct Democracy is the only solution.
More like the "final solution".
How will you protect the rights of the INDIVIDUAL in your Direct Democracy? If the majority believe that YOU are a damn idiot and vote to exterminate you, then what, genius?
this is the second time today that I have to find it so strange, this "they lied, they lied". what about actions? a lie is just words
yes, I agree. Bush and Blair threw away a lot of moral high ground away. predominantly by their actions, i.e. the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan (backed by their lies)
yet please: the West is not only the US and the UK. some warned against, and were honoured in response with "Freedom Fries"
give me anytime elected leaders I can trust to do the "right thing", and I care not the hot air they exhale. in this case: de-escalate, dammit
Words matter.
And "the West" you are talking about, is a good example.
"The West" as a geographical unit never made a lot of sense, and since the Iraq invasion of 2003 imho, the validity of the concept reflecting political and even cultural/societal unity is also increasingly becoming unstuck.
I would argue for fun there is no such thing as "the West" ( anymore ).
Whether there should be is another matter.
agree. though I think you understood my puzzlement on this attitude to have so much more attention for the words than the deeds
there still is Western Civilization, imho, and Russia belongs to it. and there is NATO. but yes, where we should all be is another matter
"Words" and "deeds" are a big part of the problem. The "words" just keep piling up until someone breaks, then the deeds become atrocious.
I agree that the U.S. has lost the moral high ground. When there's a vacuum at the moral high ground very bad things happen.
It is why a person with a good moral compass and character is so important. Otherwise there is no trust. As a reminder to everyone Obama said "if you want to keep your doctor you can keep your doctor". Now because of those white lies people will question everything and especially things like this that are even more important. Character matters.
+?
I don't believe a radar chart I'm not competent to interpret any more than a phone conversation in a language I don't understand. The ethnic mix of most western countries now could lead to civil unrest in prosperous times. There has been very little effort (in Europe at least) to assimilate migrants and we now have substantial pockets of ethnic minorities with values that barely match our own, let alone other migrants.
Factor in our precarious fiscal positions and its not surprising Governments are a bit tetchy. Ultimately financial market interventsions, water cannons, and other draconian laws are eventually going to look very Canute-like when the tide turns.
"There has been very little effort (in Europe at least) to assimilate migrants and we now have substantial pockets of ethnic minorities with values that barely match our own, let alone other migrants."
Why would European Nations make an effort to assimilate migrants anyway ??Because Barbara Lerner Specter tells us that Europe will not survive otherwise ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFE0qAiofMQ
Double post.
Far back as 1983, the US had recordings of cockpit to base communiucations of the fighter that shot down Korean 007 near Sakhalin Island. And we all remember Powell showing the UN sattelite pictures of one of Sadam's planes doing oval loops where it shouldn't have.
They have all that for this incident. Where is it?
They dumped it in the ocean near where they dumped Bin Langley.
Ha ha. The zioqueer narrative continues to unravel.
I was waiting for that shoe to drop.
He said/she said.
Just nuke each other and get it over with.
As long as it's not us.
Looks like Russia let the US and US Media build omlets on their faces before pulling the judo move takedown.
Putin took his time, lined up all the appropriate evidence while Horseface, the golfer in chief screamed their uninformed mouths off, like the little childern they are.
As ususal Putin with his Judo like counterattack drops the West on their sorry ass once again
Western 'leadership' is made up of whores.
Theyre used to being on their backs.
And he is going to let themselves dig themselves a little deeper before unveiling the cockpit recordings..looks like Russia spent all week compiling tangible evidence and facts for a crisp presentation for the global community. They know what is on those cockpit recordings already...must be waiting for Ukraine to deny aircraft were trailing MH-17.
What interested me the most was stating that the U.S. had a setellite over the area of the downed plane and are not releasing and corroborative images to further their blame Russia narrative..they specifically said the U.S. "Knows exactly what happened"..so I am assuming Russia had a satellite over the area as well.
They write like Boris. #5 was a doozy.
lurch kerry said that global warming change cold did it and obama the "bare" said , bush did it. hillary couldnt be reached as someone had dangled a dollar in front of her.
Where the hell is Boris?!!
His comments would be awesome within the context of this narrative...
The beauty is that even if it is ever somehow proven (I am not going to blindly take Russian evidence as proof since it could easily be fake like the stuff the U.S continually dishes out) the Ukraine was responsible for this the moronic west (specifically the media) will still blame Putin. That or they'll just shrug their shoulders at this and this apparently horrible act will just become a minor blip to them. It's like the Syrian gas drama with how it was such a huge story when Syria was supposedly behind it and then a non-story when it was shown the U.S backed rebels were most likely behind it.
I hate the west...and I'm born, raised and living in a western country. All of these western nations deserve to be wiped off the map for the bullshit. That may seem drastic given the belief citizens aren't part of the bullshit but they are because most of them believe this stupidty and believe western governments can do no wrong and are great.
The media will just ignore counter evidence to their claims for as long as possible, and if eventually forced to give up on their story, will just drop the whole thing. Seen it already in Syria (and others).
That's textbook classic sociopathic behavior - tell whatever lie seems to be convenient at the moment, and don't consider things like plausibility. If it works, great, if not, just drop it and move on.
Jill Hollywood will adopt another black baby, +500 for the day.
"That or they'll just shrug their shoulders at this and this apparently horrible act will just become a minor blip to them"
It's already happening. The focus has shifted from"facts"(or what passes for facts), to the poor victims.
one thing i've learnt about those missiles :
they work on radar, catching transponder signals in the process : this means that the missile operators knew exactly which plane they were targeting.
so it cannot be an accident, so who profit from the crime ?
well it's those that were losing the civil war and their puppet master : the imf that would have to kiss goodbye to their newly golden deal with ukraine if the new kiev was to indeed lose that civil war & control over gazoduc & gaz reserve.
add to that that crazy lagarde speech on number 7 & it's all becoming cristal clear.
I assume if it was the pro Russian group that did it, then the transponder signals were faked in order to make it look like a military target. Makes no sense otherwise.
INCORRECT.
Radars tell you *something* is there.
The computers connected to the radar have a catalog of 'radar image' (really just descriptions of doppler return profiles) that can tell you what TYPE of aircraft it is.
BUK-M1 is an older system. Boeing 777 is a newer aircraft. It may or may not have been there.
The profile of the aircraft as viewed by a radar is probably similar to the appearance of several Antonov transports.
There is a separate system, coordinated by the US Federal Aviation Administration, which disseminates the correlating information about flights like flight number, airlines, etc, and associates it with identifying information the aircraft broadcasts.
Airfields world-wide rebroadcast this information.
If whoever fired the missile had all three BUK M-1 vehicles (TELAR, TEL, and RADAR) then they would probably know exactly who MH17 was.
If they only had a Transporter-Erector-Launcher-and-Radar (TELAR) then they probably only had the capability to scan the target, and then lock.
The civilian data would have come from the separate radar vehicle that can intercept the civilian correlation-of-flight data. If there was no Radar vehicle, or it wasn't intercepting one of the civilian broadcasts, then MH17 would have looked a lot like a military transport.
But if they'd been watching the skies for the previous days they'd have known that it might have been a civilian. So, there was SOME negligence involved no matter what.
INCORRECT.
Radars tell you *something* is there.
The computers connected to the radar have a catalog of 'radar image' (really just descriptions of doppler return profiles) that can tell you what TYPE of aircraft it is.
BUK-M1 is an older system. Boeing 777 is a newer aircraft. It may or may not have been there.
The profile of the aircraft as viewed by a radar is probably similar to the appearance of several Antonov transports.
There is a separate system, coordinated by the US Federal Aviation Administration, which disseminates the correlating information about flights like flight number, airlines, etc, and associates it with identifying information the aircraft broadcasts.
Airfields world-wide rebroadcast this information.
If whoever fired the missile had all three BUK M-1 vehicles (TELAR, TEL, and RADAR) then they would probably know exactly who MH17 was.
If they only had a Transporter-Erector-Launcher-and-Radar (TELAR) then they probably only had the capability to scan the target, and then lock.
The civilian data would have come from the separate radar vehicle that can intercept the civilian correlation-of-flight data. If there was no Radar vehicle, or it wasn't intercepting one of the civilian broadcasts, then MH17 would have looked a lot like a military transport.
But if they'd been watching the skies for the previous days they'd have known that it might have been a civilian. So, there was SOME negligence involved no matter what.
The pettiness and childishness of these governments continues to amaze.
There is no doubt that the missile was fired either by East Urkainians or West Ukrainians.
Yet the Narcissists In Chief on both sides of the Atlantic continue to use the opportunity to poke each other over the incident, with blatant and totally transparent propaganda, while proclaiming their own greatness, and apparently indulging in Cold War Era Nostalgia.
HERE'S THE TRUTH:
NO ONE IS TELLING ALL THE TRUTH. ALL OF THEM ARE ONLY TELLING THE PART OF THE TRUTH THAT MAKES THEM LOOK GOOD.
It's hard for the Western propaganda machine to be effective when the opposing side has satellite and other technology to counter the US data.
what data? they never present any data.
just vague statements with no explanations of "sources or methods".
this is turning into a repeat of the syrian "gas attacks" debacle.
when faced with real data, their story crumbles.
it's actually pretty surprising that this is the best they seem to be capable of these days.
i really thought that after syria they would have learned their lesson not to try and lie about things that are independently verifiable via physics.
whomever these organizing forces are, they stuck in the old paradigm. they don't yet realize they can't push shit like this in the new decentralized information paradigm.
people are now able to see the proverbial glitches in the matrix, and document and share with others accordingly.
it's one thing to get the western people concerned about dead Syrians, not so difficult to get them enraged over dead westerners....that is all i got as to why they would try again after their propaganda failure in Syria
Hey the laws of physics never stopped WTC towers from free falling on 911 so why would US worry about them now?
only difference is 9/11 worked (so far...) whereas with syria they didn't get the causus belli they were looking for...
Isn't it ironic how before it is an airliner going to/fro Israel? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812
Arguing over who shot down the plane is like arguing over religion.
And arguing over "arguing over who shot down the plane is like arguing over religion" is like arguing over religion.
Man, you guys crack me up.
Before your knees jerked, did you stop and think how you're proving me right? Suckers.
So that would be a 'no' then.
Que Dean Martin's song, Aint That A Kick In The Head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huKSm0tAvhs
Nice to see a technically proficient government at work.
Another aspect of the interaction between state actors is whether state sponsored cronyism-thuggery (US, EU, etc...) can overwhelm intellect and statesmanship.
There is no "standard of excellence" for state sponsored cronyism-thuggery, if the goal is not met - change the goal. Optics over substance. No unbiased investigations, no critical thinking, only "facts" that support the predetermined, allegedly necessary "truth" are permitted.
I wonder what all those awaks flying around that area picked up.
Nothing ? out for lunch ?
The Netherlands provides in air fuling plains for those things so please can we have the recordings.
Doh!
Donetsk militia admits they got the Strela-10M, but it only has a range of 5K meters, about half the range required to shoot down the Boeing.
Situation on the DPR front lines by evening 07/20
'The prime minister of the DPR Alexander Borodai announced that the air defense of the militia received the SAM complexes "Strela-10M". "The air defense of the militia from today has complexes "Strela-10M" – said Borodai on the press-conference, dedicated to the situation, that unfolded after the fall of the Malaysian Boeing 777 on the DPR territory. According to the words of the head of the DPR government, he made this announcement so that nobody would be able to blame the militia fighters in covering up the data on their SAM complexes. Borodai noted that the maximum altitude of these complexes is 5000 meters.
"Even if we have these complexes a few days ago, we wouldn't be able to hit plane flying at that altitude with them", – said the prime minister of the DPR, commenting on the combat qualities of the new complex and the possible accusations of using it in order to destroy the passenger airliner. "These are trophy complexes, they are currently brought by our gunsmiths to readiness and are quire combat ready", – noted Borodai.'
And the junta is being supplied with more modern Western equipment. This war is going to escalate.
Speaking helmet Avakov broadcasts on the supply of high-precision weapons from the West (21.07.2014)
("Speaking helmet" must be a reference to the pic of Avakov wearing a helmet, pic at above link. He looks more ridiculous than the old pic of Dukakis in the tank when he was running for president.)
Pretty much knew right away Putin was not hoodwinked by Clownbaba, but was just giving him plenty of rope to hang himself.
I have just altered our family sayings. These are the ones I tell my grandkids. My latest old saying has been changed to “…A crisis a day keeps Obama away (and relieves you of being labeled a racist)…”
I like being called a racist.
That means I'm pissing off a lefty.
That's always fun.
BUKaki
Hey, so where are OUR satellite space images of it all? Suddenly we got nothin but second hand accusations?
Sadly our satellite images were also on Lois Lerner's hard drive.
First the U.S. data has to be adjusted (like temperature readings) to comport with "known" (but unprovable, because false) "facts." Only after the lab guys at Langley are done will the press show some grainy black-and-white images with unidentifiable blobs on them, which the U.S. will confidently assert are evidence of the alleged rebel Buk system.
Think "Colin Powell at the U.N."
CNBC of course not mentioning any of these counter claims, painful to watch
Also, US/Ukrain aren't the only ones to supress evidence of shooting down civilian aircraft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
Let me see...do I believe Putin or Nudleman? Who is pushing the emotional case and who is pushing calm, reasoned logic. The Luciferians are selling their case the same way they convince the sheeple to give up more and more of their freedoms...total emotional sell with a few twisted "facts" to prove the case. Sick F&^kers!
Checkmate, bitches
Sadly, even in light of facts, the lies wont stop. People will believe what conforms with their previously-held worldview.
The western mainstream media will drop the whole thing like it never happened and focus on some other bullshit story. The sheeple will forget this ever happened and focus on whatever they are told to focus on. I witness examples of this all the time, my theory is that the vaccines are taking their toll on the western population but I digress.
Time for this story to disappear from the U.S. MSM. There will be no real response to these new revelations, they'll just stick to the black (Orange? ) boxes and recovering the bodies (the U.S. meme).
"Needless to say, this places Ukraine and The US (as main protagonist of "finger pointer") in an awkward position as finally someone, somewhere will have to present some actual facts instead of merely continuing the "emotional appeals" propaganda"
Um, yeah.... none of this will ever gain any ttraction. Good to see the Chinese are listening. Russia and China just keep getting closer while the U.S. keeps getting more isolated.
We all knew this! As they say in the police "Always watch for the finger pointing types -most of the time they're the guilty types." The West has created this mega PR without a shred of evidence and now the truth is coming out. However, there is no space for the truth in the western media and therefore the public will remain clueless.
This scenario goes back to the ancient "Thou'st that smelt it, dealt it" method of determining guilt.
A reliable alternative when a ducking stool isn't handy.
Facts? Pah!
You can use "facts" to prove anything. How we all "feel" is much more important!!
And the US/Ukraine bullshit-athon was all going so well.
But why would Ukraine divert MH17 to eastern Ukraine and then shoot it down? Doesn't make sense.....
So they could blame the militia obviously (the militias (Donetsk and Lugansk) are in eastern Ukraine). Then Russia gets blamed for supplying the militias, driving a wedge between the Europeans and Russia.
The world stands ready to launch WWIII but it can't find a translator who can do better job than Startrek's Checkov? I'd be concerned because there are "nuclear wessels" involved!
Mr Chekov's perspective
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC6W8J0j8Co&sns=em
Zionism = mass murder.
Welcome to the new world order.
CIA and Mossad teaming up to murder people for their own gain. Exactly when is it enough?
Anti-Zionism = mass murder.
Welcome to the old world order.
Us vs. Them. Yes, there's been enough.
Huh?
I refuse to believe or support either "side". With the ease of fabricating data, photos, and presenting that data as fact, anyone who believes they, themselves employs ability to discern who is lying or truthful (including you, me, the Tylers, CNN, BBC, or RT) would be just as authoritative in claiming that they can fart rainbows.
I, therefore, choose to have equal disdain for all parties involved in this proxy war that destroys the lives of innocent people for the sake of national influence. It matters not who fired the shot and matters more that Ukraine is being used by this atrocity.
Subsequently, I also have disdain for those who bias their beliefs to fit their political narrative (i.e., I will choose to believe the Russian narrative because I despise the current administration, the economic situation, or I love to short stocks / I will support the Western narrative because I support the administration, 'Merica is the best country on earth, and is the righteous world police).
Agreed. With one caveat: the russians are the first to provide any sort of substantive evidence.
In my book, that puts them in the lead.
Your caveat already reveals your bias. A few pictures and claims are no different than a few youbue clips and claims. We have no real way of substantiating either side. Feel your inner bias, wash yourself in it and momentarily embrace it, then when it least expects it smash it to pieces with such force that it won't have power over you.
Recent scientific studies show that our biases drive our beliefs instead of facts and in this situation we can't determine facts.
Thanks Bugman, you said it better than I could.
Those that rush to judgment, even here on ZH, just prove how easily the masses can be manipulated.
Kind of scary, that. How many hundreds of millions have gone to war and their deaths over the course of human history, because they believed the current crime syndicate in charge? Different time periods, different names, but the same cast of characters in control.
On a sidenote, I'm actually starting to feel a little bit sorry for Obama.
I mean, obviously he's just a spokesman for the machine, but how many public humiliations can one fella take?
Sociopath - he has no feelings in the normal sense of the word. No need to feel sorry for him.
The downvotes indicate i need a cold shower....
I think the Chinese knew this before they spoke out.
BFF's
Good catch
Oh man, is it ever hard to fight with your pants down and over your head.
What's the next step in blaming Russia, have Obama and Netanyahu play charades miming an image of the missing Malaysian 777 and a nearly full bomb?
Not to worrry..........US will just re-tap all that Cold War "can't trust the Russians" brainwashing the American people have absorbed.
Better LUCK with your next FALSE FLAG BARRY OBAMA from us all here at ZERO HEDGE (- your paid trolls who are doing sterling work and are due a raise for their perseverance albeit NIL SUCCESS ).
The MSM will try hide all this from Russia, but it wont matter Germany and co will know all about it and have a lot less trust in the US actions and statements anywhere.
So was the US so desperate to demonise Russia and gain control of the Ukraine that they would have shot down a commercial airliner....surely they are not that evil.
Obama is giving a statement in about 10 min.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/live
He is probably going to say that the Russian plentiful evidence is not conclusive, while the CIA lack of any evidence is....well let's wait and see what the teleprompter has to say about it. I'm sure, it will be the same Iraq style PR "Russians are bad and we are awesome"
I'm sure he will.
It's just good to observe these fucks in action. Know your enemy!
you mean the big eared jihadist in chief's teleprompter will deliver a statement in 10 min
Obama is giving a statement in about 10 min.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/live
Edit: Double post sorry
Next thing to come is the sarin trick.. or perhaps the mushroom cloud.. vlad put obummer on the ropes with the uppercut, waiting for the knockout hit with shaking legs.. nice move vlad
The only question that needs to be answered is the following. Why was this plane told to change its course to fly over a zone in which cargo planes had been shot down the same week. Why was this plane even there? Who directed this?
.
Key points to always consider:
1. Who stands the most to benefit?
2. Follow the money trail.
3. Who started the fight?
4. Beware of those who rush to judgement based on emotion!
5. What is the end game?
talk radio is beating the drums, cnbc, fox, cbs nbc abc, all hitting the talking points, my hope is america and the world is just plain sick of it all, and not this time comes quickly to mind for most of the people we are tired of all the war bs, while watching here in usa an invasion across our borders, sure terrorim is our big threat, cog dis, eyes wide shut, some more wake up.
But I read previously that Russian experts said it couldn't be BUKs because BUKs cause hundreds of perforations in a shot gun style schraptnel explosion. But then again, maybe that was a fabricated report.
It's like the good old days in the Cold War when I grew up! Can't believe anything.
Most likely an air-to-air missile from the Kiev warplane downed the Boeing. But still a lot of people in the West think it was taken down by a militia ground-to-air missile (BUK), so the Russian discussion of Kiev BUKs was meant for that audience.
AHAHHAAHA, ANOTHER FALSE FLAG GONE WRONG, BITCHES!!!
PREPARE TO DIE, ALL YOU ELITE COCKSUCKING FUCKHOLES!!!!
One thing Marx did say that might be right is, 'if you give the west enough rope they will hang themselves!''
Yes indeed, where are Ukranian ATC recordings? Hopefully Kiev will get caught out now, they have been playing with fire for months and need to be brought to task.
This false flag has been a smashing sucess. Nobody talking about Gaza.
Ok, enough of those silly questions going around in internet, trolled by Putin regime trolls.
1. Ukrainian authorities immediately identified the militia as the perpetrators of the tragedy. What is the basis of such findings?
Because Pro-Russian terrosits are invading Ukraine and Ukraine know that it has not downed this ariplane. And as Russia woudld not do that from it's borders, Russia has send in BUKs with whole team in terrosits controlled teritory and used BUKs there thinking that will down Ukraine fighter jet that was flying in that same time there.
2. Could official Kiev to report all the details of using [BUKs] in a war zone? Most importantly - why these systems are deployed there, as the militia no planes?
So called "militia" or pro-russian terrorists doesn't have planes, but Russia who occupied and annexed Crimea does have. And Russia has send it's army all around Ukrain borders which is aggresion. So to protect from Russia another invasion, this time with it's legal army - Ukraine could be using (can't confirm this) BUKs.
3. What are the causes of inactivity of Ukrainian authorities on the formation of an international commission? When such a committee will work?
OECD is international commitee to investigate this crime, but pro-russian terorists is not allowing full access.
4. Are the armed forces of Ukraine international experts to present papers on accounting for missiles, air-to-air and ground-to-air ammo and anti-aircraft missiles?
Are pro-terrorists prepared to do that? I think Ukraine has no problem with that.
5. Whether these funds objective control on the movement of the Ukrainian Air Force aircraft on the day of the tragedy brought international commission?
There is no problem with that.
6. Why Ukrainian air traffic controllers allowed deviation of the route of the aircraft to the north side of the "anti-terrorist operation zone"?
Because pro-russian terorists didn't have nor BUKs, nor knowledge to use them - that changed after Russia delivered it's BUKs and team to use it.
7. Why was not completely closed to civilian aircraft airspace over the combat zone, especially because in this area there was no solid field of radar navigation?
Look at 6. point, thos pro-russian terorists could not down airplane 10 km up in the air, that changed after Russia delievered it's equipment and team.
8. Could official Kiev to comment on reports in the net, ostensibly on behalf of the Spanish air traffic controllers working in Ukraine, which shot down over the territory of Ukraine "Boeing" was accompanied by two Ukrainian military aircraft?
Have no information about this. But don't see any problems with Ukraine fighter protecting it's airspace near enemey borders.
9. Why Security Service of Ukraine has begun without international representatives work with recordings of talks with Ukrainian crew dispatchers "Boeing" and Ukrainian radar data?
They are working with OECD.
10. How were the lessons from previous similar disasters Russian Tu-154 in 2001 in the Black Sea? Then the leaders of Ukraine until the last minute denied any involvement of the Armed Forces of the country to the tragedy until irrefutable evidence showed no guilt
Same about Korean Air Lines Flight 007 - where russians shot down airplane.