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US Government Releases Alleged Evidence Of MH17 Missile Trajectory
The 'information war' is hotting up. On the heels of yesterday's 30-minute detailed presentation of Russia's 10 awkward questions for Ukraine (and the US), CNN reports that the US government has released a satellite trajectory map of what it says was the flight's path and the site from which the missile was shot. Of course, the epicenter of the MH17 launch is Snizhne, in pro-Russian separatist-held territory. Rebel leader Alexander Borodai responded, "we don't have the technical ability to destroy this plane. Ukrainians are not interested in the truth."
h/t @BarbaraStarrCNN
Which is right in the heart of separatist-held territory...
We await the detailed presentation of exactly what this means (or what The White House believes it to mean) ... or if it is simply a well drawn Powerpoint slide?
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Yep RT pulled a mulligan with Carlos the air traffic controller there.
http://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/view/127516-amenazar-controlador-esp...
That was back in May and according to that he was already out of Ukraine.
And just to back this up archive.org has the same page cached back in May also.
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/view/1...
You have to read the news then you have to know how to read the news and that includes RT.
-1 for FUD. The article says he was a driver. How do you get ATC from that? Are you thinking he is the ONLY Spaniard in Kiev?
Oh you aren't aware of the one spaniard per capital city rule?
the puppets leadind western sheeple have been exposed to be inventing things to make war so many times it is like expecting a water out of the stone, to hear truth from them. In fact they know that the sheeple is too busy to do the research and rely on them to do what sheeple do. Fuck all of you who either out of self interest or naivety come to zh and expect that serial liers ruling usa are given any credit. to them a truth is like sunshine to darkness.
And yet the sheeple still hold their palms out and bleet for moar.
@Greenskeeper_Carl
+1
Yes. Both sides are proven liars, but the US and the MSM have the more blatant recent record.
Cicero: "Mendaci neque quum vera dicit, creditur" (a liar is not to be believed even when he speaks the truth)
Someone who gets it. I like you.
When I was two years old I watched Jacqualin Onassis crawl back on the trunk of a Limo to try to save her husbands brains that had just been blown out the back of his head. They tried to explain to me, now a big game hunter of many years, how some russian sypathizer shot him from behind.
I have not believed a DAMN thing these people say since. EVER, not 911, Waco, Vietnam, weapons of mass destruction NOTHING
It's a little known phenomenon known as "blow forward". Oh wait, nevermind, I'm confusing that with Obama.
Blowback? Blow back?
Seriously though, the Epiphany comes to us at different ages and stages in life. Mine came a few years ago... about the time I started reading ZH, when a series of personal experiences collided in a way that did not allow for the stale, old mental models to explain social, political and economic reality. Simon Black's moment came when he was in Iraq, he tells us.
The point is, we hope that we are agents of positive change by getting more and more people to take the "other" pill, and see how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Provide proof (photo) of actual explosion and then I believe you.
That still wouldn't confirm WHO fired the missile. And there remains a possibility it was a missile launched from a fighter. Despite all the propoganda, there are NO facts. I keep coming back to "Qui Bono"?
Exactly. Which side actually benefits from this incident? Certainly not Russia. In fact I'd think they would do everything in their power to prevent such an event from happening.
The West however.............
Dmitry Orlov touches on motive and opportunity in the article he wrote yesterday.
Fact-Free Zone
I'd like to see tyler give dmitry a guest account.
Got to have a distraction. Got to create a rationale for taking away citizen's firearms, writing off banker losses, reneging on pension payouts, giving the UN/BIS more power, pegging all nation states to a globally managed digital currency ... got to have a WAR. Might be good for teevee ratings, too.
Not to mention that it happened just hours before the Gaza Offensive.
Right, just a coincidence. MH-17 automatically pushed the Gaza offensive off the front page, and lined up Russia as enemy number one in one fell swoop. This fact alone reeks of intelligence agency work.
Who would have the motive to do such a thing?
Just askin.
Uhh, the Zionists? The Molech worshippers? :(
And that the propaganda for these OPS is so poor is just to antagonize anyone wearing the glasses.
It's like they are saying, "We get what we want, and we don't have to provide a reason. See, the cowardly sheeple are suckling from the She-Beast's breasts now."
Almost certainly hear something about Iran soon, to tie into this story.
I paid attention to this. All the networks were covering the shootdown and Gaza equally. It did not push Gaza into a dark corner at all, just divided the minutes spent between commercials for boner pills.
It seems more like it pushed the illegal invasion of our southern border off the front pages more than anything else.
Yup, CSI 101 when investigating any crime/malfeasance: MOTIVE, Means, Opportunity.
Don't they teach that at Propaganda school, er I mean Journalism schools any more? What about the W5 (Who, What, When, Where, WHY) + How?
Or is it all a House of Cards... about "looking good" and "managing the career" these days?
Now wait a second. Maybe Russia setup a false-false-flag in order to frame the west trying to frame Russia. Haha, take that!
Hmm, the warhead on the SA-11 looks pretty big compared to an air to air. The video of the plane on fire shows the right engine on fire but the wing is still intact. My uneducated guess is the bigger missile would have been likely to tear the wing off entirely from the get go. As such, it would appear the damage was lesser due to a smaller missile.
That is just a guess.
You can see the lines on the pretty paper can't you? They're right there in front of you, can't you see they prove everything?
I'm sure experts contributed to this malarchy.
This is shaping up to be yet another huge humiliation for the US media and government. Of course, nothing will change as a result of it...
I can make better in photoshop...
They have it...but they cant show all the cards to the enemy...or the cold war starts again..and they are very expensive
Very profitable!
Oh look " Weapons of Mass " fallacy.
We see here satellite image with nothing on it....
Well, where are the pictures with the actual rocket in air, with the exhaust fumes, etcetera? This is not evidence. This is Paint.
Is this seriously all they got? A goddamned paint job? Hahahaha... :D :D :D
Maybe the year 2010 in the picture corner has a greater significance? We already know the following:
1) Brzezinski has written books about destabilizing and dominating Russia by starting conflicts along their borders.
2) We know that the Kremlin warned the US in 2007 regarding the already ongoing meddling in Ukraine.
3) Malayasia held a war crimes tribunal in 2010 which convicted several Western leaders.
Not that it adds anything to the "evidence" in the picture, because there are none, but maybe it's no coincidence that a pic from 2010 is being used...
DigitalGlobe 2010 ...
is it a joke ?
NOPE, it real evidence
LOL
:D
Not like anyone should be surprised given the "evidence" they showed regarding the alleged cave dwelling utility knife wielding terrorists after Sept 11, 2001 and then the "evidence" they showed about the alleged Bin Laden compound raid. Then the evidence a year ago from Syria and pretty much every single piece of "evidence" they make up for everything they try and sell to the sheeple. Oh, I also can't forget the bin laden tapes throughout the years. Those were classics.
Such a pathetic government not because thye make up this bullshit (since all governments do) but that the U.S doesn't even TRY to give convincing evidence. That is how worthless they view the sheeple and how low they think of the sheeples' intelligence. Sadly though it seems they are accurate on that given most sheeple don't give a shit and believe whatever they are told.
Oh you mean the ones of him getting younger not older, ya those were classics.
btw 2010 year??? REALLY?LOL
It was peace back then.
Can't you see.
Which kind of evidence is supposed to be this? It's not even a radar image. The Russians presented an extensive, professional analysis, and have no reason to lie since it's ovbious to anyone who can read Russian and read the Russian news that the coup in Kiev was instigated by the West since the very beginning. So by now it's far beyond doubt that the Malaysian airlines flight was brought down by either the incompetent Ukrainian Army or by foreign mercenaries working with them which had even less knowledge then the Ukrainians themselves about what they were targeting, assuming that it was a mistake, although it might not be.
Additionally, I expect the Russians not to uncover everything they have recorded. I tend to believe the "real" evidence is waiting to be released when the right time comes. Seeing the paintbrush bullshit of CNN, I think we are not there yet.
The copyright on the digital image is 4 years old (2010)! Using colored magic markers to draw the flight path and missile trajectory on said digital image is far from conclusive evidence.
WTF? I buy images from Digital Globe...I would have thought the US security apparatus would have had their own, you know, satellites and stuff.
If they can fake HFT/Algo driven markets how hard is it to fake satellite imagery?...
If we could buy Hill & Knowlton's lies in order to initiate the first Iraq war... Secretary Colin Powell's WMD rhetoric to initiate the second Iraq war... Given our short term memory loads...
Should be another slam dunk for the U.S./NATO contingent!
From the peoples I've spoken to abroad , nobody is buying the US line.
People, not the govts who can hardly keep a straight face parroting the US
lies.
This release was from the Onion surely, they are not even trying anymore.
Which is very scary when you think about it. They just don't give a shit now,
probably thinking most will be dead when they have finished operation
chaos.
Go look at the comments on any MSM site and you'll see they don't even have to try to appear credible, as the sheeple are now "all in."
Funny what the idea of "my country" does to a soul.
Where was this three days ago?
Brought to you by the same crowd that offered up the skalp of a Coptic Christian filmmaker as the responsible party for the instant uprising in Benghazi and the missle launchers traveling thru what turned out to be Maidan held territory in May.
Perpetuated to you by the same crowd that regurgitated this bullcrap without questioning it.
Last August, the White House put out a similar map showing that the Syrian government shot chemical weapons into Ghouta. Earlier this year, MIT proved definitively that this was not where the chem weapons were shot from. The White House has a history of lies when it comes to this.
Lol wut?
Funny how USSA can supply "evidence", within days, on "missile that hit MH17 " - half a world away
- but knows nothing, nada, zilch about what hit the Pentagon on 9/11... 13 years after the fact.
A hit, I might add, that conveniently wiped out the team auditing the missing Pentagon $Trillions.
Yeah right, Bucko.
Nor that "other" (missing) MH flight. Boeing still quiet about the real time data it receives from its planes?
From Russia with Love
MH17 is a diversion to distract us from the real news:
The World Bank 1818 H Street N.W. (202) 473-1000 (202) 473-1000 FREE INTERNATIONAL BANK FOR RECONSTRUCTION AND DEVELOPMENT Washington, D.C. 20433 Cable Address: INTBAFRAD
INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT ASSOCIATION U.S.A. Cable Address: INDEVAS
June 30, 2014
Tayuan Diplomatic Building No.1, Xin Dong Lu,
Beijing, People’s Republic of China
H.E. Mr. Anthony Liverpool
c/o Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Trade Queen Elizabeth Highway, St. John’s, Antigua
Your Excellency,
The fractional reserve fiat currencies issued by central banks comprising the “network of global corporate control” described by Stefania Vitali, James B. Glattfelder, and Stefano Battiston of ETH Zurich, http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1107/1107.5728v2.pdf are to be replaced by gold coins, gold leaf, and aurum1, denominated in each of the world’s currencies.
My Memorandum dated June 22, 2014 to the World Bank’s Board of Executive Directors describing the Global Debt Facility which will provide the gold, together with the first Monetary Agreement to be entered into with the Government of Japan, can be downloaded from https://s3.amazonaws.com/khudes/mboard3.pdf. and https://s3.amazonaws.com/khudes/Monetary+Agreement1.pdf
Similar letters are being sent to other countries, with a target for signature of Monetary Agreements in Tokyo at the end of July. Please let me know the contact person for Antigua.
We would like to conclude the Monetary Agreements on the same closing date if this is feasible. It will also be possible to arrange for signature in counterpart.
Sincerely,
Karen Hudes
Acting General Counsel
International Bank for Reconstruction and Development
Source: https://s3.amazonaws.com/khudes/ltokyoembassiesoutoftokyo.pdf
Real or convincing fake?
Seems to be addressed to a bunch of small/island nations, China and India.
I like the price of gold at 250,000 Yen though.
Another Photoshop childlessness designed for somnambulistic consumers of the west.
One phone camera video, no matter how distant could blow all this out of the water....now with all the camera phones around the place...was even one looking at the sky and the airliner?
No...
Because people don't normally take recordings of the sky.
And at 33,000 feet the airliner would look like a dot (if you could even see it) and the missile would be totally invisible.
You would probably only see the airliner by its contrails.
SEE FOR YOURSELF:
Go to http://www.flightradar24.com.
Choose a flight over your head.
Walk outside and try to see it.
Now, allegedly there is a cellphone video of a BUK missing one missile in Snowy (Snezhnoye) that was loaded onto a flatbed and driven to the Russian border. Russia says it is a fake, but has not said how to tell it is a fake.
As it is you should take what everyone says with a barrel of salt. Everyone is more interested in assigning blame than in establishing what happened.
West Ukrainians said the East Ukrainians didn't have a BUK. Then they said they did have a BUK, but it didn't work. Then they said they did and it worked and had shot down several aircraft, and some helicopters at high altitude.
East Ukrainians said they had a BUK and it worked. They said they were shooting down West Ukrainiam military aircraft. And we can independently verify there were actually West Ukrainian military aircraft shot down at high altitudes. On 17 July Girkin posted that they had shot down another AN-26. Then he said they didn't. And Girkin said that the posting was the act of a hacker. Next the East Ukrainians said they had no BUK. And Russia said the East Ukrainians had no BUK.
Everyone has completely reversed their story at least once..
Everyone gets to decide which lie and liar to believe each time these guys speak. Do we believe them before? Or do we believe them now?
So, you have to disbelieve everyone and try to use logic.
1) If West Ukraine did it, given they have trained crews and all the infrastructure feeds that would allow them to differentiate the flight from military traffic - the implication is that it would be a false flag. Could they have done it accidentally? Yes...but not from where the missile appeared to have come. Multiple ground witnesses reported to reporters from countries not invovled in Ukraine that they saw a missle from Snow (Snezhnoye), which is held by the East Ukrainians.
West Ukraine would be taking a risk to do a false flag. If they did it and were outed, they would be done. No one would touch or support them in any way. If they were successful, then what would they gain that would be worth that risk? - Not a NATO intervention. Not anything that would guarantee winning. So, to them success=marginal political improvement, but failure=total failure. I am interested in hearing other opinions of concretely what the West Ukrainians would gain. I think they are capable of doing a false flag if they believe it benefits them. However, I have not heard anyone say specifically what is the benefit. I am interested in hearing this.
2) If we propose East Ukraine did it we have a bunch of questions. How did they do it?
The story "to BUK or not to BUK, that is the question" has obviously had many reversals on all sides.
There are some videos. The videos authenticity is disputed. Then there are the airplanes that were previously shot down, which they claimed to have shot down, at altitudes that shoulder-launched systems can't reach. You decide whether they do (or did) have a BUK.
NOTE: The distinction that RUSSIA (or any one else) had Air Defense Missiles, that they simply used in support of East Ukraine is sophistry. If there was a BUK working for the East Ukrainians, regardless of origin, then East Ukrainians had a BUK, for all intents and purposes.
3) What about the fighters following the flight? If they were there, then they either belonged to West Ukraine, or to Russia. No one else phsyically COULD have had fighters there.
East Ukraine doesn't have the means or airfiields to support fighters. There is no reason to believe the fighters are Russia's. National intelligence systems on both sides of the Atlantic monitored the fighters when they were near the Airliner - so they also monitored them when they left. If those fighters were flying home to Russia to land, Obama would be jumping all over that. Obama has not made that claim, therefore there is no reason to believe the fighters were Russian. If the fighers were West Ukrainian, then we go to number 1 above. If the fighters were West Ukrainian it is no different than if we propose the plane was destroyed by West Ukrainian Surface-to-Air-Missiles.
Hopefully this outlines the various claims by various parties, their reversals.
Keep in mind that a lot of people don't care about logic, and don't care about reality. To a lot of people this is a sports contest. They've picked their 'Team', facts and truth be damned.
A green arrow from me for thorough examination.
One critical piece, however, you left out. Why was the plane there is the first place? That is the single most important detail, and the western media is not talking about it at all. The fact they are avoiding that subject to me speaks volumes.
I think Euro control screwed up bigtime. I think Ukrainian Air Control screwed up big time. But the screw up doesn't appear to be unique to MH17.
The head of Malaysian Airlines said that was the normal route in his post-crash briefing.
And we have an Indian Airlines plane also nearrby at the time of the shooting.
It appears the airspace was not in fact as closed as we all have been led to believe.
Could you please pass on some links for these? I'm not being obnoxious, genuinely curious. I hadn't heard that before. Thanks.
so where is Krasnoarmeisk on this map?
do we have confirmation of the place of sighting of the BUK in Ukr gov territory?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/key-piece-video-%E2%80%9Cevidence%E2%80%9D-russian-responsibility-malaysian-plane-shootdown-debunked
Krasnoarmeisk is North West of Donetsk.
To the best of what I was able to find it has been under Ukranian forces since May 11.
Both sides are furiously spinning, Pro-Russia says it's Krasnoarmeisk, Ukranians, say it's not.
Not having a Google street view, it's hard to say who's lying.
But there is one piece that may shed some light on the truth.
But the store does exist in Krasnoarmeisk, exactly where the Pro-Russian groups are saying.
Beltway buffoonery at its finest.
Either idiocy runs deep in Washington, or perhaps knowing that the SES and elected levels are too stupid to catch the inconsistencies, the technicians are trying to show this is BS without risking their employment.
Allegedly, no one has been fired by the US Government in the last 100 years for being too stupid. Too smart, yes; but no terminations for being stupid.
It is only an illustration of the U.S. t heory...
Although sometime their high tech surveillance does not notice how a whole B777 disappears, it is pin point accurate now.
Not to mention how it omits the Ukranaian SU25's
The Russians are really good at chess....
There is no way that the Russians did not have at least 3 spy sats constantly watching every gnat that moves in the Ukraine area, and total radar coverage.
If the US "intelligence" aparatus doesn't realize this, they are complete and utter noobs. They know the Russians know exactly what went on, the question is, who will reveal it first, and then the other side will doctor their evidence to refute the other guys evidence, to try to make them look bad.
Information and disinformation are the new weapons. For everything else, there are mercenaries and plausible deniability.
They don't care about truth... They have 90% of all the worlds msm so they can tell anything they want to tell...
Just read that the black boxes will go to the UK for analysis.
That doesn't seem so smart.
Those black boxes may shed more light especially if they confirm a missile hit because a timestamp of when it hit will help in determining where it was launched from. Remember these things have known velocities you can use to back track to make a potential launch points radial map.
If they tried to put up doctored evidence they'd get caught like they did with JarJar's cert of live birth. So they put out this cartoon.
#BringBackMyProof
No matter who shot down MH17, if all were done accidentally, the case either for or against either Kiev or the separatists is hardly changed.
The US basic claim is that Moscow is to blame regardless, for arming the separatists.
The Moscow rebuttal is that , if the US wants to go there, the US is to blame for sponsoring a coup ousting an elected government, and alone of the major powers encouraging and assisting Kiev to undertake a military offensive to effect a military solution over East Ukraine.
The US appears to have advantage in the propaganda war because it controls more media, and has the more simplistic superficial argument (i.e. no guns, no shootings. no missiles, no downings)
However, if any element of downing a civilian airliner was intended deliberately, then the perpetrator would deservedly get a black eye.
Correction: The AIPAC basic claim is...
Deal me in for WMD's.
What IRS scandal?
You have to be a LERNer to understand
There is no such thing as 'fact'.
Any 'event' can be accepted as fact or fake based on previously set agenda, emotion or point of view.
Public is in no way trained to distinguish between different "facts" or "analysis".
ah yes, the "pub-licks" are swayed by whatever infos fed, and their meals vary daily.
and this is the only Truth. everyone has a unique perspective, act acccordingly.
again, welcome back.
thank you, thank you
putnick is on der ropes a dope
this graphics is so exact in its mathmaticals even a super consputer cannot nots disputes it.
der bbc just said it der real deal
what mores raw fresh intels do you needs peoples
lets roll
The purpose is not to convince...it is to obfuscate, knowing that people believe what they want to believe they will give each just enough to justify his/her righteous position so they can carry their water against the opposition...it's always been more about being RIGHT than the TRUTH
Me thinks the spy satellite, E3 AWACS and EA-18G Growler flying around the Black Sea and Ukraine for NATO exercise SEA BREEZE 2014, when MH-17 was shot down, have a very different story to tell... but they give us a Digital Globe map from 2010.
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/07/21/mh-17-beware-of-the-chameleon.html
When Barbara Starr is the mouthpiece assigned to deliver this 'evidence' to the world, rest assured it's complete garbage.
Are US and Ukraine propoganda made in the same place by the same people, aka slopy?
Russians just busted the one of these two videos, being filmed in Krasnoarmeisk which was under Ukrainians control since May 11.
This isn't evidence - it's PowerPoint For Dummies.
This is about as damning as the govt saying "we have a drawing showing someone exceeded the speed limit in your neighborhood, so you are responsible for the ticket and fine, and we are taking you to jail."
Oh wait ... in the modern USA, that actually is all it takes to convict anyone.
This is not evidence. It's "asserted" evidence. Anybody could draw yellow and green lines and a couple of coloured blobs on a satmap picture.
Let me see, Zero Hedge claims as fact:
Putin, the KGB Colonel, always tells the truth,
like I annexed Crimea, and trying to do same in E Ukraine.
Pro Russian Separatists always tell the truth, while drunk,
like hey we cannot shoot this missle, we're drunk stupid slavs,
not Russian Military Intelligence agents.
And the USA and Obama, the first Black President,
Harvard Consititutional Law Professor,
always lies, with CIA supporting, cuz Snowden says so.
...And even a photo of the missle firing and striking
from drunk separatists town is not to be believed.
Cuz Tyler Durden says so.
That's all we get? We spend bazillions on NSA, CIA, Military, satellites, etc., etc., and the best we get are a couple of lines drawn on a 4 year old commercial image? Jezus H. Christ!
the bazillions spent on the NSA, CIA, and satellites are not to watch the rest of the world, but rather to spy on every detail of every american's life.
The money spent on the military is to pay off political favors.
now I'm totally convinced
They lied about Iraq, they lied about Libya, they lied about Afghanistan, they lied about every color revolution, they lied about 9/11....why would it be any different now?
Putin's long rope appears to be doing it's work.
Besdies Russia's 10 questions are yet to be answered
Maybe this is side stepping answers with more bullshit
Within DAYS USG releases missile
trajectory data including point of origin.. a 16 ft
missile. Yet no trace of MH370...a fucking
airliner.
Here's the difference:
To monitor a missile you have simply have to turn on the 'camera' when there is an event that tells you to - THE ACTIVATION OF A HIGH POWERED TARGETING RADAR.
The targeting radar acts like a doorbell, actively lighiting up the sky, and telling the world, "We're about to fire a missile, get your cameras ready!"
Once it turns on you use physics to tell you where the missile came from.
An airliner just flies. To monitor an airliner, you have to be running the 'camera' 24-7.
That's the difference.
Looks like low bidder work for .Gov
Now, allegedly there is a cellphone video of a BUK missing one missile in Snowy (Snezhnoye) that was loaded onto a flatbed and driven to the Russian border. Russia says it is a fake, but has not said how to tell it is a fake.
As it is you should take what everyone says with a barrel of salt. Everyone is more interested in assigning blame than in establishing what happened.
West Ukrainians said the East Ukrainians didn't have a BUK. Then they said they did have a BUK, but it didn't work. Then they said they did and it worked and had shot down several aircraft, and some helicopters at high altitude.
East Ukrainians said they had a BUK and it worked. They said they were shooting down West Ukrainiam military aircraft. And we can independently verify there were actually West Ukrainian military aircraft shot down at high altitudes. On 17 July Girkin posted that they had shot down another AN-26. Then he said they didn't. And Girkin said that the posting was the act of a hacker. Next the East Ukrainians said they had no BUK. And Russia said the East Ukrainians had no BUK.
Everyone has completely reversed their story at least once..
Everyone gets to decide which lie and liar to believe each time these guys speak. Do we believe them before? Or do we believe them now?
So, you have to disbelieve everyone and try to use logic.
1) If West Ukraine did it, given they have trained crews and all the infrastructure feeds that would allow them to differentiate the flight from military traffic - the implication is that it would be a false flag. Could they have done it accidentally? Yes...but not from where the missile appeared to have come. Multiple ground witnesses reported to reporters from countries not invovled in Ukraine that they saw a missle from Snow (Snezhnoye), which is held by the East Ukrainians.
West Ukraine would be taking a risk to do a false flag. If they did it and were outed, they would be done. No one would touch or support them in any way. If they were successful, then what would they gain that would be worth that risk? - Not a NATO intervention. Not anything that would guarantee winning. So, to them success=marginal political improvement, but failure=total failure. I am interested in hearing other opinions of concretely what the West Ukrainians would gain. I think they are capable of doing a false flag if they believe it benefits them. However, I have not heard anyone say specifically what is the benefit. I am interested in hearing this.
2) If we propose East Ukraine did it we have a bunch of questions. How did they do it?
The story "to BUK or not to BUK, that is the question" has obviously had many reversals on all sides.
There are some videos. The videos authenticity is disputed. Then there are the airplanes that were previously shot down, which they claimed to have shot down, at altitudes that shoulder-launched systems can't reach. You decide whether they do (or did) have a BUK.
NOTE: The distinction that RUSSIA (or any one else) had Air Defense Missiles, that they simply used in support of East Ukraine is sophistry. If there was a BUK working for the East Ukrainians, regardless of origin, then East Ukrainians had a BUK, for all intents and purposes.
3) What about the fighters following the flight? If they were there, then they either belonged to West Ukraine, or to Russia. No one else phsyically COULD have had fighters there.
East Ukraine doesn't have the means or airfiields to support fighters. There is no reason to believe the fighters are Russia's. National intelligence systems on both sides of the Atlantic monitored the fighters when they were near the Airliner - so they also monitored them when they left. If those fighters were flying home to Russia to land, Obama would be jumping all over that. Obama has not made that claim, therefore there is no reason to believe the fighters were Russian. If the fighers were West Ukrainian, then we go to number 1 above. If the fighters were West Ukrainian it is no different than if we propose the plane was destroyed by West Ukrainian Surface-to-Air-Missiles.
Hopefully this outlines the various claims by various parties, their reversals.
Keep in mind that a lot of people don't care about logic, and don't care about reality. To a lot of people this is a sports contest. They've picked their 'Team', facts and truth be damned
This, http://www.corbettreport.com/what-really-happened-to-mh17-an-open-source-investigation/ and the rest of the reports here on zero hedge give me the impression that at least Kiew had a hand in it. And somewhere I remember reading that western Ukraine military had positioned themselves between the Russian border and the Donetsk area. If the tragedy could be blamed on Russia and/or the "rebels" it would give the west the excuse some of them want to get involved militarily.
Firstly, what they have to gain in a false flag is that they have nothing to lose. They must take as much of the Ukraine as possible to get the paper-gold cookies.
I do not discount that the rebels may have taken the plane down. However, that someone boasted that a plane was taken down is hardly evidence. If I am in a war zone where those alongside me have taken down aircraft and there is no reason to expect civilian aircraft the first response just might be 'We took down another cargo plane!'
The military forcing the trajectory of the airliner into the war zone is the most damning evidence there is. Either the CIA wanted the rebels to 'accidentally' shoot down that plane or they shot it down themselves and make it appear as much of a designed accident on the part of Russian Evil as possible.
And of course, I suspect there was no plane that flew over Syria. The timing is perfect for the narrative 'Don't be evil, just be incompetent.' The theatre of stupidity, clear in Obama ( a bit of a house negro narrative) and Bush, is to displace any thoughts that modern democracy is a truly evil form of government, that those in power just made human mistakes under difficult circumstances.
"Firstly, what they have to gain in a false flag is that they have nothing to lose. They must take as much of the Ukraine as possible to get the paper-gold cookies."
Well... they are running a big chunk of the country right now. They have that to lose.
I think the boast is not conclusive evidence. But it is still evidence - just not conclusive. He may actually have been hacked.
On the "miiltary forcing the trajectory of the airliner into a war zone"...
Don't you believe the CEO of Malaysia airlines - who said that was the normal route? Why not? Is there a reason not to believe him?
There are a lot of people who claim the flight was rerouted. They include a spanish air traffic controller.
There was an Indian Airlines pilot who said he heard when MH17 was given authority to fly directly, rather than from one VOR to the next...which is not the same thing as rerouting.
But Malaysian Airlines says that was the normal route - to include permission for direct flight. And VOR-to-VOR would not have taken them from the war zone.
And also both the East Ukrainians and the West Ukrainians agree that the West Ukrainians had been destroying air airport communication equipment. Those provide the VOR signal. It may have been impossible to fly from VOR to VOR, because they weren't operating.
And the Indian Airlines plane was within 25 miles of MH-17. That puts him in a war zone too.
So... where is the re-routing?
here is what is interesting as far as all the evidence being tossed around that this was from a Russian system. as of yet the photos released of the alleged Russian BUK launcher leaving the eastern Ukraine with one missile missing show only that, the launcher, but there is a glaring issue with that being "proof",consider the following...
The Buk is a mobile, radar-guided surface to air missile (SAM) missile system with all four main components — acquisition and targeting radars, a command element, missile launchers, and a logistics element — mounted on tracked vehicles. This allows the system to move with other military forces and relocate to make it a more difficult target to find than a fixed SAM system.
so you need at least three of the four components to even use the system, so how can a photo of just the launcher be considered proof of anything? one would have to provide photographic evidence of all three vehicles in the area in order to claim to have proof that the rebels had a working system capable of hitting a plane at 30,000 feet. which shouldn't be that difficult really, the vehicles are large, slow and tend to stand out and in an age where everybody has the ability to pull out even the cheapest low tech cell phone and snap pictures and take video and surveillance cams are abundant, you would think somebody would have gotten more that just the launcher. even if after firing the components dispersed in three different directions I find it hard to believe that only the launcher exposed itself to a camera on it way back over the border.
as far as the above goes, it's the exact same presentation the Ukraine intelligence service put out three days ago mere speculation and theory that addresses nothing of consequence, provides no concert evidence as to who did it or why.
"the plane was shot down over the eastern Ukraine" that is the only fact the above information establishes. well, no shit thanks for clearing that up. in fact it doesn't even establish that the plane was downed by a SAM system. come to think of it there is absolutely no solid evidence being fielded to prove that it was a SAM and not an air to air missile that doomed the 777 in the first place.
maybe the proof that this is the result of a eastern separatist/ Vladimir Putin conspiracy to shoot down a civilian airliner for...what? the sheer fun of it?
maybe that proof can be found right along side the Iraqi wmd proof, or the Assad chemical attack proof, or the Gaddafi feeding his troops rape pills proof, or the Hutarie militia were going to declare war on the US proof...and so on and so forth.
well, you get the idea.
Putin may be a good guy in this or he may simply be the devil I don't know, but that doesn't really matter, because the devils I do know very well, those that roam the halls of power in Washington have proven themselves time and again to be liars, thieves, murders and just generally irrevocably corrupted souls. so to believe anything put out by them is to truly be played, once again, for a fool.
" so you need at least three of the four components to even use the system, so how can a photo of just the launcher be considered proof of anything?"
That is not correct because you omitted one of the four components.
There are FOUR vehicles.
1) Command
2) Acquisition RADAR
3) Transporter-Erector-Launcher (TEL)
4) Transporter Erecotro Launcher and GUIDANCE RADAR (TELAR)
You only need # 4 to fire and hit a target. You need 1 & 2 to acquire the target and then interrogate it so you know what you are firing at.
The TELAR has a dome on the back. The TEL doesn't.
The disputed video is of a TELAR. Go look at the pictures of the TEL and TELAR online and compare them with the disputed video. See for yourself.
gcjohns1971,
good catch I stand corrected it looks like that one can be used independently
thanks for bring that to my attention.
MF
edit:
it appears I was mistaken about needing all three components to successfully fire some versions of the BUK system and the photos and video of the BUK in question do appear to be of the TELAR variety which can be used independent of the rest of the battery.
thanks to gcjohns1971 for catching my mistake.
All this is just warm up for what's coming. Obozo hinted at a nuke going off in NYC and my money is on the traitor having the inside track.
And Cheney hinted at one going off on the DC Beltway inside of a shipping container. The truth and its relevance would cease to exist the moment either of those scenarios happen. COG would commence. National Security risks the likes of pretty much everyone that comments on ZH would be ordered arrested, re-educated or killed. Good times.
An analysis of the last 25 years of US foreign policy indicates an exponential increase of megalomania and insanity with those who attain high levels of stature and power in DC. YOU CANNOT PUT ANYTHING PAST THESE SOCIOPATHS. They have murdered over a million people for lucrative no-bid contracts based on fabricated evidence. They will do it again.
Is this a joke? Or are we actually expected to accept this grainy, cobbled together piece of shit as the definitive proof that Ukraine's puppet Gov't didn't launch the missile? LOL
SIG-INT was to busy watching Americans going to the bathroom or watching porn, they had to throw some sort of Etch-a Sketch picture together to show superiority to the sheep.
Real sat pics are able to show Bob Costas spitting food while he rants about evil guns!
Hell... I could do better with Google and Power Point...
Do you think it is a Freudian slip, or intentional, that the layout of the picture above has similarities to a chess board?
From an earlier ZH article (referring to the Ukrainian fighter jet following MH17).
"Russian military says Ukraine fighter jet picked up speed toward MH17"
Has anybody provided evidence that MH17 was actually shot down by a surface-to-air missile?
Is it not possible that it was the fighter jet that shot it down??
It's possible but not neccessary. You can make a civilian air liner look like a military target by flying a fighter in between the air liner and the ground radar and spoofing the air liner's civilian IFF signal with the fighter's military IFF signal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_friend_or_foe
This explains my other suspicion ...that the rebels on the ground were fooled into thinking they'd locked on to a Ukrainian fighter jet, fired off a missile, only to see the fighter get the hell out of it, leaving MH17 as a sitting duck with 298 innocents on board.
IF that is roughly what happened, it raises the question of 'who' was responsible. The rebels for firing a missile at their enemy who've been bombing them?? or Ukraine for deliberating choreographing a huge mass murder incident??
No one has presented conclusive evidence.
There are indicators:
Aircraft based missiles come in at least two flavors - heat seekers, and radar guided.
If it was a heat seeker from a plane then it get near the back of the engine and then explode. That would blow the wings (which are full of fuel) apart. You would probably only find palm-sized pieces of the wings. But in fact, the wings were lying on the ground, and there are photos of them lying on the ground.
If it was a radar guided missile from an aircraft, then it would approach the airliner from behind. The missile would be automatically explode when it was near the air craft. Because it would have to approach from the rear, the missile would explode near the rear of the aircraft.
If it was a surface missile, at that altitude it would have to be radar guided, but it would be fired in front of the aircraft, and so, would automatically explode near the front.
So, if you were investigating, you would look for a piece of MH17 that had a lot of little holes in it. If the edges of the holes are bent towards the painted side (outside) then it is depressurization, or something on the inside of the aircraft that exploded. If the edges of the holes are bent toward the non-painted side (inside) then you have a piece of shrapnel that punched a hole in the aircraft.
If you find a piece of MH17 that has small holes punched from the outside towards the inside, and the piece is from the back of the aircraft, then it was PROBABLY a fighter (surface missile MIGHT hit the back, but at 33,000 feet would more than likely run out of fuel before catching up to the plane)..
If you find a piece of MH17 that has small holes punched from the ouside-to-the-inside, and the piece is from the front of the aircraft, it is pretty much a lock that it was a surface-to-air missile.
So, here is a piece:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html...
See the strip of aluminum with rivets at the top? That is the bottom part of a window.
See how the piece is long in the same direction as the painted stripe? That is because it is part of the Cockpit window (passenger windows are small and narrow). You can also confirm this because there is part of a console that would hold a control boarb sticking out on the right hand side, kind of like a shelf. The passenger windows don't come with shelves.
See the little holes? That is shrapnel.
Around a couple of them, I see shiny stuff. I presume that is because the hole was punched from the inside-to-outside. The shiny stuff is the edge of the metal curling out from the hole.
Around most of them I see nothing. That probably means they were punched from the outside-to-the-inside.
As much as a photo can tell you, this photo would tend to confirm that the aircraft was hit by a surface-to-air missile.
Thanks "gc". I'll buy all that. Sounds very reasonable.
It seems like a miracle to me how the separatists were able to use a radar-guided BUK on that distance with the considered heiight of MH-17 without having the necessary radar-capabilities. I mean, TELAR is good but on that distance, within the time and such, by merely untrained people? Even the mobile radar-systems, if at optimum were put between target and launcher, would look like flares in the dark for Russian and NATO, but yet onlly the UA is said to have used 9 radar-signals that day.
If I'm not mistaken, the remaining pieces of the plane should provide the proof of whether it was SA or AA.
Supposedly, the BUK warhead cuts loose a cloud of square shrapnel that presumably will leave a particular pattern where it struck.
AA supposedly has long, thin shrapnel that leaves another type, like a horrible claw mark in the metal.
I did see one picture of a wing or tail section of (supposedly) MH17 where there were long gouges, which might agree with the AA hit, but only an expert could really determine that..
TWA800 was shot down in broad daylight in U.S. airspace and they tried to convince us it was an exploding gas tank.
Watch the Netflix documentary on TWA800. You'll never see a more obvious coverup. The fudge surrounding MH17 doesn't even come close.
The last days…
Gaza: Al-Kidra said the Palestinian death toll from the two-week offensive stood at 508 as of Monday morning…
Syria: More than 700 killed in Syria as ISIS tightens grip on east
Libya: Islamist-led militiamen have stepped up their assault on Libya's main airport, controlled by rival fighters, which the health ministry said Monday had left at least 47 dead in a week.
Nigeria: Boko Haram extremists have killed more than 100 people and hoisted their black and white flag over a north-eastern town left undefended by Nigeria's military, according to a civil defence spokesman and a human rights advocate.
Sudan: At least 150 people have been killed and 100 others injured in clashes between two groups belonging to Mesiria tribe in al-Dibaib area in Sudan's West Kordofan state, the Sudanese Media Centre (SMC) reported Thursday. Milions to starve as Sudan sits on an oil reserve estimated at 10 Billion Barrels.
Iraq: Iraq forces 'killed 255 Sunni prisoners'. More than 5500 civilians killed this year.
Ukraine: At least 356 people, including 257 civilians, have died since the beginning of the “anti-terrorist” operation in Ukraine’s eastern regions of Lugansk and Donetsk, according to UN calculations. There were 14 children among the dead.
110.000 have fled to Russia, displaced.
Afghanistan: 1,564 civilians were killed from January through June.
And so on.
Then there are the only deaths that matter to the West, those of flight MH17.
Yep, brown skinned people don't count. Apparently.
And else.
Qutbi al-Mahdi, the former head of Sudanese intelligence and member of the ruling National Congress Party’s (NCP) political bureau, said that the southern state's announcement of an agreement to sell its oil to Israel deals a blow to the Addis Ababa agreement between South Sudan and Khartoum. The NCP also accused the EU and the US of backing the Sudan People's Liberation Movement-North (SPLM-N) rebels with $24 million to support their political and military activity and to overthrow President Omar al-Bashir.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/politics/2013/01/south-sudan-oil-agreement-with-israel-strains-north-south-negotiations.html##ixzz38DclUr4I
Only question that matters is who gaines by this atrocity?
You can make a civilian air liner look like a military target by flying a fighter between the air liner and the radar on the ground and spoofing the air liner's IFF signal.
Good point.
An Air Force that didn't want to get shot by SAMs might follow closely behind civilian aircraft, hoping to hide.
Of course, there is a chance that then the SAM would see the military plane instead of the airliner.
But the airliner is bigger. All things being equal, it would put out the bigger signature.
What about a own media-sattelite for "crisis-hotspots" based in a neutral country?
It should be thinkable considering the huge media-power searching the "thruth"...
This is what trillions of US$ supporting the insane military complex gets you! Beyond pathetic!
The US government are Powerpoint pros. They mean nothing, but they look great.
A bit Off Topic: In other news
Delta Air Lines cancels all flights to Israel indefinitely, citing a report of a rocket landing near Tel Aviv airport. Flight DL468 that was en route to Tel Aviv is now diverting to Paris.
http:// www.flightradar24.com/DAL468/3dfffc2
Get me a magic marker and a map, I can make "evidence" as well!
I trust the data. I have no doubt at all that the US missile launch detection/warning system that's been watching that area of the planet for many, many years has the capability to determine that precise of a trajectory. They could precisely detect SCUD launch sites way back in the early 90s during Desert Storm according to news reports, they just couldn't manage to get to most of them before their mobile launchers moved away from the launch sites.
China. Plague. City. Measures.
http://io9.com/china-seals-off-city-of-30-000-people-after-man-dies-of-1...
It's proven that we cannot trust US propaganda however the commentary on this site makes it seem like Russia is the paragon of virtue. just like the other malaysian airlines flight we will probably never know what happened to mh 17 because both sides will distort the truth to serve their own ends. Let us just hope this does not lead to a huge worldwide war.
"...commentary on this site makes it seem like Russia is the paragon of virtue..."
I would not say that Russia is a 'paragon of virtue' but even if not, Putin would not dare risk war with the West by training amateurs to fire BUK missiles, much less give them highly sophisticated weapons that could not only cause this MH17, incident but could also fall into Kiev's hands. To do so would be more indicative of an anarchist than the dictator Putin is often accused of being.
Russia's economy and population are but small fractions of NATO's. Under Putin, it has far, far less blood on its hands than the USG and its poodles in NATO. Just because the USG recklessly hands out weapons to Syrian terrorists, doesn't mean Russia would do the same. And, horrifying as this might seem, there are USG leaders who would willingly put whatever they consider to be the 'national interest' ahead of a 'few' innocent lives.
Erm, you got it wrong.
Russia is at least not pretending to be "leader of the free world" and is not spewing all that moral-highground shit every single hour of every fucking day.
That's why people don't shit so much on them, because they are not pretending to be something they're not.
I dislike both sides, I just dislike US (government) more.
http://7online.com/news/photos-white-flags-mysteriously-fly-above-brookl...
Someone is trying to make a not so subtle statement......
7/22/2014
Do the numerology.
I am 66 years old and I do not recall ever hearing the president of a country say in a news conference I'm sorry I was wrong (excluding caught with hookers). Being a dictator means never having to say you are sorry.
Did a fighter shoot MH17?
Or did a surface to air missile shoot MH17?
No one has presented conclusive evidence.
There are indicators:
Aircraft based missiles come in at least two flavors - heat seekers, and radar guided.
If it was a heat seeker from a plane then it get near the back of the engine and then explode. That would blow the wings (which are full of fuel) apart. You would probably only find palm-sized pieces of the wings. But in fact, the wings were lying on the ground, and there are photos of them lying on the ground.
If it was a radar guided missile from an aircraft, then it would approach the airliner from behind. The missile would be automatically explode when it was near the air craft. Because it would have to approach from the rear, the missile would explode near the rear of the aircraft.
If it was a surface missile, at that altitude it would have to be radar guided, but it would be fired in front of the aircraft, and so, would automatically explode near the front.
So, if you were investigating, you would look for a piece of MH17 that had a lot of little holes in it. If the edges of the holes are bent towards the painted side (outside) then it is depressurization, or something on the inside of the aircraft that exploded. If the edges of the holes are bent toward the non-painted side (inside) then you have a piece of shrapnel that punched a hole in the aircraft.
If you find a piece of MH17 that has small holes punched from the outside towards the inside, and the piece is from the back of the aircraft, then it was PROBABLY a fighter (surface missile MIGHT hit the back, but at 33,000 feet would more than likely run out of fuel before catching up to the plane)..
If you find a piece of MH17 that has small holes punched from the ouside-to-the-inside, and the piece is from the front of the aircraft, it is pretty much a lock that it was a surface-to-air missile.
So, here is a piece:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html...
See the strip of aluminum with rivets at the top? That is the bottom part of a window.
See how the piece is long in the same direction as the painted stripe? That is because it is part of the Cockpit window (passenger windows are small and narrow). You can also confirm this because there is part of a console that would hold a control boarb sticking out on the right hand side, kind of like a shelf. The passenger windows don't come with shelves.
See the little holes? That is shrapnel.
Around a couple of them, I see shiny stuff. I presume that is because the hole was punched from the inside-to-outside. The shiny stuff is the edge of the metal curling out from the hole.
Around most of them I see nothing. That probably means they were punched from the outside-to-the-inside.
As much as a photo can tell you, this photo would tend to confirm that the aircraft was hit by a surface-to-air missile.
Look, you brain dead Pro-Russian Boosters. It is reasonable to expect any country with international surveillance capability would have focused on the Ukraine. That is a geo-political hotspot that Putin is nuturing. Military activity has been ongoing since February.
Fast forward and you will find Putin getting boxed in by his domestic politics. The Pro-Russian separatists are whining for Russian support and Putin is getting beat-up at home. Putin orders missle launchers be given to the Pro-Russian separatists and the rest is history.
It is reasonable to expect there exists imagery of the missle launchers crossing the Ukrainian border... in both directions at inappropriate times.
Russia is in serious trouble. The BS spouted here on ZH is meant for the low IQ people. Those low IQ people do not provide leadership. The Pro-Russian bravado expressed here is meant to buck up the spirits of those low IQ people in the hopes they will continue to support Putin.
Any Russian leader will tell you, there is no positive to come of this. This is simply an increase of the old water torture technique. Putin will be on the defensive until he is replaced.
Why have the Russians distanced themselves from the Pro-Russian Ukrainians who handed Putin a big shit sandwich?
Obama made and is eating his own shit sandwich. You need to accept that and stop making excuses for Obama failure. Obama remains on the defensive until he is impeached.
Also, you need to check a map. Ukraine is not inside of Russia. So blaming Putin or Russia is pure hilarity and lacks credibility. The real war criminals are the ukrainians Obama put in power who are killing civilians on a daily basis.
It looks like a low IQ was hooked and reeled in...
Whoa, four-five pounder...
Yes it was probably shot down by a rebel SAM. The question is why the rebels thought it was a military plane.
https://www.noagendaplayer.com/listen/636/1-6-55
sounds like the fact that people don't believe the shit the US slangs anymore has really got under your skin.
Well, let me call international community and cancel the investigation, since you've solved it all.
Thanks man.
U.S.A. : Global Jury, Judge & Executioner ..........................................................................& Instigator!
It goes way further and over the USA.
Microsoft Flight Simulator circa 1997.
WHERE THE FUCK IS COLON POWELL WHEN YOU NEED HIM , AM I RIGHT?
So that's the base for USraels fingerpointing?
Absolutely fucking incredible!
If I were an american taxpayer, I would be very pissed off, because I pump billions of dollars into the military, they have a new satellite specialized on rocket detection exactly above when this happens, and all they can produce is this?!
They should ask the Russians, how they record their radar data and what kind of optics they use for the satellites.
I don't know what is more depressing: the criminal energy or the stupidity of the masses which will probably eat this SHIT although they have internet and the other side's arguments only a fingertip away.