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Russia And Germany Allegedly Working On Secret "Gas For Land" Deal
While many were amused by this photo of Putin and Merkel during the world cup final showing Europe's two most important leaders siding side by side, some were more curious by just what the two were scheming:
Thanks to the Independent, we may know the answer, and it is a doozy, because according to some it is nothing shy of a sequel to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact: allegedly Germany and Russia have been working on a secret plan to broker a peaceful solution to end international tensions over the Ukraine, one which would negotiate to trade Crimea's sovereignty for guarantees on energy security and trade. The Independent reveals that the peace plan, being worked on by both Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin, "hinges on two main ambitions: stabilising the borders of Ukraine and providing the financially troubled country with a strong economic boost, particularly a new energy agreement ensuring security of gas supplies."
Amusingly, this comes on the day when the WSJ leads with "On Hold: Merkel Gives Putin a Blunt Message. Germany's Backing of Russia Sanctions Marks Breach in Pivotal European Relationship" in which we read that " Angela Merkel spoke to Russian President Vladimir Putin for at least the 30th time since the Ukraine crisis erupted. She had a blunt message, according to people briefed on the phone conversation: Call me if you have progress to report in defusing the conflict. That was July 20. The two leaders haven't spoken since."
They may or may not have spoken since, but it is not because Putin has "no progress to report" - it's because the two leaders have come to a secret agreement which will hardly make Ukraine, or most of Europe, not to mention the UN, happy as it requires that Crimea be permanently handed over to Russia in exchange for Russian gas, which has been cut off for a month now due to non-payment by Kiev.
Here is how the deal came to happen:
Sources close to the secret negotiations claim that the first part of the stabilisation plan requires Russia to withdraw its financial and military support for the various pro-separatist groups operating in eastern Ukraine. As part of any such agreement, the region would be allowed some devolved powers.
At the same time, the Ukrainian President would agree not to apply to join Nato. In return, President Putin would not seek to block or interfere with the Ukraine’s new trade relations with the European Union under a pact signed a few weeks ago.
Second, the Ukraine would be offered a new long-term agreement with Russia’s Gazprom, the giant gas supplier, for future gas supplies and pricing. At present, there is no gas deal in place; Ukraine’s gas supplies are running low and are likely to run out before this winter, which would spell economic and social ruin for the country.
As part of the deal, Russia would compensate Ukraine with a billion-dollar financial package for the loss of the rent it used to pay for stationing its fleets in the Crimea and at the port of Sevastopol on the Black Sea until Crimea voted for independence in March.
To be sure, in the aftermath of the MH-17 shooting, which in light of this revelation would clearly not benefit Russia, negotiations have stalled they are expected to restart once the investigation has taken place. “It is in everyone’s interests to do a deal. Hopefully, talks will be revived if a satisfactory outcome can be reached to investigations now taking place as to the causes of the MH17 catastrophe."
But while Germany can't wait to put the Ukraine conflict behind it and restore normal Russian relations (see Adidas' record plunge earlier today, blamed on the Ukraine conflict) others are far more eager to stir the pot some more: "A spokesman for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office said they had no knowledge of such negotiations taking place. However, the spokesman said he thought it highly unlikely that either the US or UK would agree to recognising Russian control over Crimea. There was no one available at the German embassy’s press office yesterday."
Which, of course, goes back to the fundamental question behind the Eurozone experiment: just who calls the shots. And despite what the UK (and certainly France) believe, that one person was and continues to be Merkel. And at the end of the day, pragmatic Germany knows that for all the posturing and rhetoric, the biggest loser from a western embargo of Russia (which is now actively shifting its attention to China and now India) would be Germany itself.
[S]trong trade ties between the two countries have also served to strengthen Ms Merkel’s hand and the Russian speaker has emerged as the leading advocate of closer relations between the EU and Russia. “This is Merkel’s deal. She has been dealing direct with President Putin on this. She needs to solve the dispute because it’s in no one’s interest to have tension in the Ukraine or to have Russia out in the cold. No one wants another Cold War,” said one insider close to the negotiations.
Some of Germany’s biggest companies have big operations in Russia, which is now one of Europe’s biggest car markets, while many of its small to medium companies are also expanding into the country. Although Russia now provides EU countries with a third of their gas supplies through pipelines crossing the Ukraine, Germany has its own bilateral gas pipeline direct to Russia making it less vulnerable than other European countries.
However, Russia is still the EU’s third-biggest trading partner with cross-border trade of $460bn (£272bn) last year, and the latest sanctions being introduced by the EU towards Russian individuals and banks will hurt European countries more than any other – particularly Germany, but also the City of London.
Curiously, if there is one entity that could scuttle the deal it is, no surprise there, the US.
Central to the negotiations over any new gas deal with Gazprom is understood to be one of Ukraine’s wealthiest businessmen, the gas broker, Dmitry Firtash. Mr Firtash – who negotiated the first big gas deal between the Ukraine and Russia between 2006 and 2009 – is now living in Vienna fighting extradition charges from the Americans. But he has close relations with the Russian and Ukrainian leaders – he supported Mr Poroschenko – and has been acting as a go-between behind the scenes at the highest levels.
Incidentally, the same Americans which over the past 2 years has been desperate to start a regional war in any one part of the globe in order to break some more windows and boost GDP courtesy of the tried and true "Military Industrial Complex" GDP boost. Which is why if indeed the Ukraine peace process is in the arms of the US, then perhaps Putin's advisor was spot on when he said that "There is a war coming in Europe." Compliments of the United States?
Finally, for those wondering how much of the Independent's story is a fabrication, here is Germany denying it all:
- GERMANY: REPORT OF SECRET DEAL ON UKRAINE `TOTALLY UNFOUNDED'
Which, if Jean-Claude Juncker is any indication, seals it.
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By energy security, they mean not turning over half the Ukrainian gas company to joe Biden's son.
Oh but Hunter honed his skills working with John Kerry's stepson.
Meritous advance everywhere you look.
I am telling you, they are going to have to abort more and more of them as the birth defects show up.
pods
Amazing how the media covered that story, eh? Ya think if a Bush had been installed, someone would have put it on a cover or above-the fold on a Monday?
No mention that this German proposal has been on the table for months. And the US has presented no alternatives.
Is anything today not a 'secret?'
Yes.
Anything a private citizen does is not a secret.
Anything an Oligarch or the government he empowers does is a secret.
I would think that many across the pond would be thinking about who their friends are as soon as the drunken lout pisses off too many people and gets axed.
It is in Germany's and Russia's interest to be trade partners, not military partners but good old trade partners.
They are probably reading Washington's farewell address?
Meanwhile, the drunken lout is in a fistfight with his wife (CIA tapping Senate), has vomitted all over the couch (Iraq and Afghanistan) and is about to be cut off at the bar (BRICS and bilateral trade agreements).
pods
Next week's headline from the always truthful British press: Putin Renegs on Secret German-Russian Ukranian Peace Deal
Probably published by the BBC (British Brainwashing Company).
This is absolute moronity
Germany now doesn't even have an active military.
They've subbed out defense to USA.
Merkel has absolutely zero power to negotiate such deals.
This is a media rumor.
Germany's power is basically a mirage.
not everyone needs a military. German power is their ability to defuse the USA during the dollar collapse. That's power that Putin (BRICS) need and at this point is worth more than any messy military operation.
How?
When do the contracts come up for renewal?
Why would they need military power to negotiate with their trade partner? Assuming something like this is happening and they're presenting it to the Ukies, it's up to the Ukies to decide whether it's a good deal or not. For Russia to negotiate a deal together with Germany is important because it doesn't want to become an isolated state.
Because military is needed to guarantee trade and defense of trading world routes.
Those pipes from russia would run through eastern europe.
Who will defend them?
Merkel grew up in East Germany.
She may be looking for a new Sugar Daddy.
I doubt Putin is looking for her sugar.
I more suspect he would be interested in seducing her into the geopolitical bedroom under the presumption that Russia will be here sugar-Daddy, but once the handcuffs are on the relationship will change.
Merkel might like that. I doubt the rest of Germany will.
If she is smart she will take off the rose-glasses, and realize that Germany must defend herself. To do that she will need to minimize reliance on any one energy supplier.
You are either extremely ignorant or delusional. I'm not sure I want to even know which.
both
Real power relationships change over time, until the institutional framework that holds them in place can no longer contain them. It is no doubt true that Germany is not free to just walk away from US control of its military. But it is a fallacy to believe that the long-standing institutions and contracts binding them together and defining their relative power is fixed and stable or can be held in place forever by force.
As Germany's economic power within Europe grows, the longer the US holds it as a vassal state, the more spectacular the change is likely to be. And the collapsing dollar has to be forcing the issue.
Germany does not have an active diplomacy, as a zero power
defenseless state in a military sense. Fixed it for you.
Can`t fix your junkers, MSM junkies that would buy such BS
conspiracies.
thx
thx
Assuming this is true, this is not a military issue, and this is not Germany and Russia planning to dictate to others. Think of it as drafting a proposal that will ensure stability in Russia, Ukraine and Europe as a whole. You are thinking in outdated terms, and you are falling for Zerohedge sensationalism. In case you weren't aware, Zerohedge likes to spice up their articles with their own opinions or historical examples that aren't strictly relevant to the issue at hand.
When America's president has down-played America itself to the degree O-Peach-Me has, the other countries say, "What the heck; let's see what we can do without the freako American interference." They will probably do ok since we won't be offering pallet-loads of fiat for favors. The clown-n-charge has hoisted the white flag. We are done.
Merkel: "You give us gas, and we'll give you Ukrainian land."
Putin: "Oh fuck yeah!"
Energy. What the problem is. ...
National Security 'what the problem is'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ6blrpiYNY (0:17)
Beer & vodka; the new molotov cocktail
Putin reeling Germany in, bit by bit..........
It started with Schroeder.
Chirac, Schroeder and Putin met in 2003 after UN debate on WMD and GWB's decision to go without the UN into Iraq. They drew the line then.
They would NEVER negotiate a new Yalta with the GWB neo-cons on the terms of Unilateral NWO dictat.
They knew from historical perspective that GWB, playing SON of Saint Louis in his neo con US Crusade, would end up like Saint Louis. It would be a repeat.
And they knew that once that unwind began there would be a place for a Euro-Russian stance to an alternate route.
History has proven them right.
And Schroeder sealed that in concrete in North Stream Project with Gazprom in 2004 when he left office as Chancellor and took that risky bet of Ost politik.
Mutti is now just following in his steps as the legacy of US hubris plays out, just like the legacy of Saint Louis played out then leading ultimately to loss of Holy Land and to fall of Constantinople to the Turks and then to that ULtimate demise of Saint Louis's CORE VALUES : the demise of feudality--the old oligarchy by birth class-- and of the Catholic church--the clash of civilizations ideology House-- whose intransigent dogmatic values he INCARNATED; just like the neo -cons incarnated the NEW American Century and US Universal Empire.
So, lets see how this plays out and will new Constantinople fall one day?
History rhymes. Naomi Klein was right when she wrote The shock Doctrine.
Its the blue print of the new American century and it means permanent war in third world. Not what the US administration and Potus preach...what they DO.
Transaction won’t be in USD. Let’s bet or speculate. My premonition.
Chess is not golf
Merkel and Putin are running rings around the rest of the leaders, perhaps the world is a safer place when Obama is playing golf and Cameron is on the tennis court.
1 ex-KBG + 1 ex-Stazi!
Took a cue from George Bush pere, did they?
Now that the NY FED has Deutsche Bank properly tee'd up.. they are starting to pull the club cover off the Big Bertha. They'll be going for the green.
Maybe so, but if they use a driver on Deutsche Bank, they may find they land in the water, with the ripples spreading far and wide.
Looks like Germany finally did takeover the world! Well done!
The so called secret plan is actually quite simple, on the paper everything looks okay on both sides, the claims are clear and accepted on both sides following by third parties.. which is bullshit. The Ukraine is not a real player in this game, Ukraine is being fucked. US Gov is the one who is raping the body, Ukraine just plays the book, it got paid for it in the end, $5 + $17 billions, not a bad price, actually.
Good luck. The war will grow.
As I've said before, real counter-insurgency, not the David Betrayus-Clauswitznerd version that needlessly kills more Americans than necessary, boils down to 1 simple truth and choice:
There are two fundamental paths one can pursue when combating insurrection- kill them off, or buy them off.
There are a whole bunch of moving parts to what is going on in Ukraine, but it is encouraging that Kiev might realize that option A is not a viable long term strategy.
http://en.ria.ru/politics/20140731/191539246/Yatsenyuk-Promises-Financia...
"The Ukraine is not a real player in this game, ..."
Agreed, the Ukraine "government" may not be, but it is not so easy to "turn off" the gangs of Nazi thugs musceling their way into power in every city and town across Ukraine outside of the Donbass, nor is it so easy to turn off the anger and stirrings of the people being robbed and bullied. More, the idea that the "rebels" are Moscow's to turn on or off is laughable to anyone who has been watching closely, as is the idea that they would ever allow Ukrainian "government" troops into the territory they hold or allow Ukraine to control of their border with Russia.
Nor can Putin easily switch off the rising crescendo of demand inside Russia for action to defend the "rebels" and roll back the fascist armies they've been watching slaughter civilians nightly on their TV's. It would be terribly surprising if those accusing Putin of a sellout and demanding military action didn't include US agents and dupes working on the "color revolution" project. But in the present context there is no way Putin can isolate and suppress these traitors in Russia's midst, because the demand for action is strong and growing across the political spectrum.
Nor can the war and revenge seekers among the Poles, Moldovans and Romainians be easily switched off. Especially the Moldovans who are longing to reverse the outcome of the civil war of the early '90's which ended with the Russian-speaking part of their territory winning de-facto independence, protected by several thousand Russian peacekeepers ever since.
And both the US and their lackeys in Kiev have been absolutely ruthless in the use of false flag incidents.
So I agree. Whatever Putin may offer or agree to, he and Merkel are threading a dangerous path, and if the US is not on board and acts to sabotage them they will fail and the war will grow. Unless ...
... unless when the next crisis comes Merkel is ready to challenge the US.
Surely Andrea and Vlad both understand this. They have been called many things, but neither has to my recollection been called naive recently.
There is more, too.
Russia can roll right into East Ukraine and take charge quickly. If the sanctions start to cause real problems for him from wealthy Russian Oligarchs, he can use an invasion to rally the patriotic population around him to hoild the center of power close.
Every day that brings us closer to winter strengthens his hand, too. If he cuts off energy supplies to Europe, there won't be enough gas & oil to support what little NATO army there is inb a March on Russia. Europe will be scrambling just to stay warm.
Who gives a fuck what the United States of Terrorism thinks?
Does everyone now see how stupid it is to decrease self-reliance and put production into foreign hands?
Most of the West is going to suffer terribly while it rebuilds itself. Stup MFers. Mental retardation is no excuse for treason!
Fighting evil can only be treasonous if you yourself are evil.
"Look at yourself before you judge others."
What do you do when enveryone is evil?
Here's a couple more ornaments to hang on your Xmas tree.
The first doesn't have to do with Ukraine, but nevertheless is a kick in the Holy American Butt: the release of the Obama - Netanyahu transcripts.
What's the Yiddish word for ingratitude?
More to the point was Frans Timmermans', the Dutch FM, decision to release -- just a couple of days ago -- a Venezuelan General and alleged drug trafficker that Eric Holder wanted extradited to the US.
Was the Netherlands demonstrating its impatientce with Nulandism and telling the US to STFU and order Ukraine to let the Dutch and Austrailian investigators to the MH17 crash site?
"Nickt ficken mir, Israel ist kien aschloch?"
How about, "Verbungen"?
My German is very rusty, but I can probably come up with more...
Burn VW cars?
NYET!
Crimean sovereignty is already an accomplished fact - Putin's not going to agree now to pay thru the nose for very little gain - he can thwart any Ukraine bid to join NATO without any deal like this with the West.
It's a stupid idea.
I'd like to see Vlad-Pootie's counter-offer. Now if they cut the U.S. completely out of the deal and Germany throws its lot in with Russia, then that's a deal!
Gotta happen sooner or later.
"he can thwart any Ukraine bid to join NATO.
If the black boxes reveal that Ukraine sent jets up or diverted MH17 over Donetsk, the Dutch will do NATO thwarting for the Poot.
waiting for john (joke) 39 to call this a Jewish Zionist conspiracy.
Hi,cesspool.
Brussels pays the US. They'll do what they are told.
Eagles - Dirty Laundry 1080p LIVE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzT10MSgKtU (6:28)
That will show the NSA for watching me while I'm naked!
- Angela Merkel
No Mrs. Merkel, I think that was punishment enough.
Can you all stop talking nonsense and tell me whether NYMEX has to be in all caps or not?
Because some news outlets are going with Nymex and it's driving me crazy. I thought NYMEX owned that word kinda like ifone or whatever that is.
"Germany and Russia have been working on a secret plan to broker a peaceful solution to end international tensions over the Ukraine, one which would negotiate to trade Crimea's sovereignty for guarantees on energy security and trade. "
Obvious propaganda. I mean Secretary Horsef..., er, I mean, Kerry wasn't even involved in this alleged solution.
i like it when the russians and the germans try to work things out, just like the start of w2
' Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is perhaps, the end of the beginning.'
Sir Barry Bullshit Churchill
If a deal isn't done soon, the Ukrainian people won't be the only ones that suffer. Ukraine will experience mass starvation and people will freeze to death. No government will remain in control. That's when all those armed Ukrainians start flowing over the borders looking for the necessities of life. Poland, Moldova, Romania, Belarus, and Hungry better get ready for those armed refugees. What about all those nations that depend on Ukraine food exports? Most of the Ukrainian exports went to Russia, Belarus, and Kazakhstan. Throw in a record drought in the U.S. and Brazil for good measure. Something tells me food costs will be escalating across the globe this winter.
Merkel looks like a whore.
All politicians look that way.
All politicians are that way...
Very true...
An old whore never loses her clit piercing!
Tough for the UK/US Axis. Catherine The Great was German. Much of Russian history is bound up with German history, it is a natural relationship and Germans lived in Russia since at least the 18th century.
Putin speaks German and Merkel speaks Russian. What does Cameron speak ? What does Obama speak ?
The logic of The New Silk Road from China to Hamburg is superior to any prospect from that hollowed out island landing strip to the left of Belgium. Cameron is an absolute zero.
If you want to quote Molotov-Ribbentrop start thinking YALTA when FDR gave most of Central Europe to Stalin including what became Western Ukraine, and later Potsdam Don't forget FDR approved the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact because he let Stalin keep all his gains and agreed to move Poland's Eastern border 100 miles westward by taking German territory to compensate Poland - and threw 12 million Germans out of their homes in ethnic cleansing. Read up on the forced labour camps the Poles ran after 1945.......
Cambo and Barry speak Banksta Trash.
Famous words: "Ich bin ein Berliner"
Bill Klintoon: "Ich bang ein Berliner"
G.W. Bush: "Ich bong mit ein Berliner"
Barumph Obola: "Ich bin der bung-hole uff der Berliners"
Just for clarity,
"Ich bin ein Berliner" means
"I am a jelly donunt."
Seriously.
JFK was no linguist.
It is a wonder that the crowd didn't burst out laughing.
He should have said, "Ich bin Berliner"
You are absolutely correct on the "jelly doughnut" observation.
The Germans definitely cut ol' JFK some slack...
No – they really like jelly doughnuts.
My Lady is top Lawyer in Samara.
Full blood German with complete knowedge of Family Lineage. Still does the German things, super organized and such.
Her Family was Bankers invited by Great Katerine.
Katerine brought many German Farmers...look Engels city opposite Saratov on Volga also
There is one region center told to have more German match type dna than average of Germany now.
Govenor of Tomsk Oblast is German...and many more examples
Germans and Russians lived peacefully for centuries until they were pitted against each other in WW I by anglo-saxon bankers.
Yes. Prior to the German Unificatio of 1871, they lived in peace with the Russians for 100 years. Katherine the Great invited them to Russia to teach the locals how to farm. They were pioneers in dry-farming techniques and could extract sugar from sugar beets.
I'm a direct descendant of the "Volga Deutche" people. My great-great grandfather and his two brothers left just prior to the bolshevik revolution.
Catherine The Great was German Sophie
Is this a bad time to point out that Tsar Alexander was first cousin to King George V of England?
Bad time to point out that Queen Elizabeth II is the grand-daughter of George V, or put another way, third cousin to the 'Tsar of all the Russias'?
My point is that looking back nearly 250 years to Catherine seems both excessive and beside the point.
The history between 'Germany' and 'Russia' that you imply simply does not exist. Catherine was of the Holy Roman Empire, and Russian by marriage. Her father was a general in the Kingdom of Prussia.
Russia struggled continuously with the Ottomans, and the other Muslim Caliphates. And that is how the rest of Europe prefered it.
During Catherine's time one of the notable Russian-Muslim struggles was with the CRIMEAN CALIPHATE.
In fact Prussia joined a grand "Triple Alliance" between the Dutch, the British, and Prussia which was primarily aimed at reigning in Russia.
Germany, in an even remotely modern conception did not exist until the mid 19th century, when it was a union of Prussia and thiry-some-odd Germanic Republics and States after war with the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
So...quite the opposite.
The word in Russian for "German" is Nyemets, which means "Silent one". They called them 'silent' because they couldn't speak to one another.
No, for over a thousand years Russia has been seen as 'The East' as a legacy from the Golden Horde. Due to its size the kingdoms of Europe have always conspired to keep Russia's attentions and resources focused elsewhere.
The British monarch betrayed his Russian relative - Tsar Nicholas and his family. They did nothing to save them from bolsheviks who brutally murdered the Tsar, Tsarina and their four children in 1918.
The British monarch betrayed his Russian relative - Tsar Nicholas and his family. They did nothing to save them from bolsheviks who brutally murdered the Tsar, Tsarina and their four children in 1918.
Catherine the Great was Mutti's favourite historical character...dead on. She said that to the media.
Great points!
"Der Drang nach Osten", redux.
I've been telling y'all to get with the idea of the ABF, the Anti-Bolshevik Federation. Germany knows what's up. They can see the slaughter and genocide in Gaza and know who the true global threat is. Time to bring it on and rid the world of these parasites ONCE AND FOR ALL.
Hey---Renegade
the fairways open, sunny-75, the boYs in the ukies cant get it right anyways.
keep the boat aflow, make the deal,
you dont want all that hatin stuff goin round
got a plate full now and two to go
Just another day in paradise and a chance to work on that handicap. OH - Ya
The sequels are never as good as the original!
Another black eye for His Imamship's red lines in the sand.
Ribbentrop to Molotov, shortly before Nazis invaded Russia:"Watch your steppe!"
Puter wants the technology out of those 66 million year old pyramids on the Crimean penninsula (and just off the coast underwater).
Gotta be a lot better than the technology Hitler got from the 5th root race.
Putin would be a fool to believe any deal that claims to bar NATO from installing itself in Ukraine.
The US promised Russia not to install NATO in Eastern European countries years ago and has reneged on virtually every promise. Under this new alleged deal, NATO is not under German control and will obey its grand master: The United States. To be sure, Putin would have to ensure some serious sanctions were available to him against Ukraine if NATO showed its ugly face there.
We lied
All of that is true except for one thing:
There are no NATO troops separate from those of the member nations.
So which 'NATO' troops would that actually mean? Germany, Poland, Austria, The Baltics.
But how real is that? Can NATO order the member nation troops around against their will? No.
Remember after 9/11 when the US had been presumptively attacked NATO countries were required by treaty to provide troops?
Remember this was while New York was actually burning.
Did they?
Yes, some. France came-which was a surpize given their on-and-off history with NATO. A few Germans came. Brits came, and stayed. But most simply sent a token handful, (handful = less than 10), and a few refused outright.
This was with the financial capitol of a prime NATO member actively burning.
So... there won't be any NATO troops unless the European Nations are angry. If they were angry, there would be troops anyway.
People should remember this when they parrot the 'NATO marching to the borders' story.
Where do the 'NATO' soldiers come from? Well, in Poland it is the Poles. In the Czech republic it is the Czechs, and so on. If the 'providing' countries aren't willing they don't provide, or they provide no more than a token
Could there be a false flag attack that would trigger NATO member countries to come with their Armies? Yes there could.
Could there be a false flag attack that would trigger non-NATO member countries to come with their Armies? Yes there could.
What difference does NATO make in this?
The real value of NATO to Western Nations is in the coordination of standards for military communications, munitions, etc. The old Warsaw Pact had the exact same weapons from the exact same manufacturers, simply built in various countries. NATO countries each have their own. If there were no one coordinating, they literally COULD NOT operate together without accidentally killing each other in numbers.
That's a truth that few will admit. Every Army kills many of its own, with the number inversely proportional to training. When you put allied nations in proximity to one another, all the problems are greater.
Here:
This should clear things up:
http://www.eur.army.mil/organization/units.htm
Read the list of units.
The vast majority of the 'Combat Arms' units assigned to Europe are physically in the Contnental United States. It would take a large and time-consuming mobilization to move them.
'Military Intelligence' might dazzle the Russians with their brilliance (UNLIKELY - TO SAY THE LEAST).
The SIGNAL Brigades could talk the Ruskies ears off.
But when you come down to it, there are only THREE Brigades of combat troops. That is less than ONE Division (Russians have dozens of Divisions).
It is a Scarecrow.
The amount of money they are spending at Clay Kaserne on NSA facilities should merit a direct hit......and the dilapidated barracks in Kastel are empty so not worth a hit.
The British have a max.. 25000 fighting soldiers increasingly made up of reservists and no tanks. The Bundeswehr is a joke with old kit and is basically a civil service department. Noone is going to fight for Ukraine except Blackwater
I'm not sure what the point is you're trying to make.
NATO is a multinational force with military people/equipment contributed by its members. How they get deployed is down to NATO commanders on a case x case basis in consultation with the members. We know that as the dominant contributor to NATO, the US pulls most of the strings. We also know that since the collapse of the USSR, NATO (read US) has been installed on the soil of many countries that surround Russia, in violation of assurances given.
My earlier point was about how much trust could Putin have in a deal with Mutti over Ukraine which states that NATO would not be installed on Ukraine soil. Very little in my view since NATO (read US) already has a track record of breaking such agreements.
Just keep Kerry away!
i posted this story yesterday
story is complicated, but basically everyone has an agenda....
long live context
If genuine, this is a kick-the-can deal.
Firstly, Crimea SHOULD go to Russia. It was only ever Ukraine's as a gesture of imperial good will.
Secondly, a primary driver of the Ukraine crisis is energy security for Europe. Whatever Merkel's personal position Germany's viability as an independent state requires them to hedge their energy needs by distributing contracts among many suppliers. Too much energy from any one supplier gives that supplier too much control over what happens in Germany.
Ukraine is ultimately in the position that it is because it never adequately severed and hedged its power relationships with its neighbors. Overreliance on Russia, made any substantial policy disagreement into an existential affair - just as everyone can clearly see. Ukraine's only leverage on energy shopping was Crimea. That did not end well for Ukraine.
Yet control of energy is control over economies. Without leverage that would allow them to seek a alternate suppliers, Ukraine is not viable as an independent nation. Where would such energy physically come from? It can't come from Europe. Europe has none to sell. It can't come from the North for the same reason. It can come from the South East, which inconveniently wants to be part of Russia.
If Germany were to accept such a deal, the use of Ukraine as a proxy fight for both would continue. If Germany allows Russia to control Ukraine in return for a sweet energy deal from Russia, they will not be able to act if Russia decides to change the terms of that agreement. Were that to happen in some hypothetical future, Germany would be in the same position in the future as Ukraine was until recently - with total autonomy so long as they gave the Russians whatever they wanted for energy.
Scary times in which we live but our govnt knows what Merkel is doing the NSA has the conversation thats why we are blaming Russia for Ukraine when we started it if my reading has been truthful.who knows? Pay close attention to the west bank Israel about to get sandwiched and with friends like Washington Revolutions at hand
Ah, now that US rage abates in sterile stalemate, there is place for Ost Politik diplomacy...
I hope the haggis is going down the hatch of those who say um...what?
Hey, we should send in John Kerry.
Hahahahahahahahahaha
It's not a done deal until MR Ed makes his appearence.
Quiet...he's busy rug shopping at the moment.
the BS meter is pegged, Russia already owns Crimea, and gas and the good land in Ukraine, and any promises from "the West" aka the EU Muslim experiment are lies and worthless promises-as we've proven repeadedly to all our "allies", America's word is worthless, ask Mubarak.
The EU is a totally unsustainable criminal enterprise, a Muslim immigration experiment run amok, they need to steal moar assets every year just to stay even and survive let alone catch up, Libya didn't go as planned, the only place this has to go is nukes or immigration enforcement in the EU but I don't see that happening, I see the EU being invaded and invasion pace increasing , not decreasing.
Think about it for a second. First how the hell did the Independent even get this information?
Secondly does anyone really think Russia is just going to give up the only warm water naval port they have especially when Turkey is about to turn against the US and NATO also. They rigged the game for all scenarios to hold onto control Crimea either overtly or outright. Why would they give it up now and why would they give up a piece of territory that is now vital to keeping Ukraine out of the southstream pipeline route. You really think they would give up this piece of territory especially after calling the US a bunch of chickens by banning poultry.
This is an absolute piece bullshit propaganda being put forth to try keep Russia and Germany from getting a room and fucking already.
That they would be negotiating deals isn't the issue that they would negotiate this one is.
long on cold ukraine fall and winter...hrrr..
mr. firtash is going to die very soon.
Ich bin ein Berliner.
Bitchez.
You'd be glad you're not from Hamburg.
"Ich bin dine chrome dinette". - Zappa
butter cream or marmalade stuffed? :)
I wonder if Merkel is using a prepaid calling card phone now...
It would be useless. The Brits always break the German codes.
In the Bulge, Hitler used motorcycle couriers; no word on Ultra, and the allies were surprised.
The Poles broke the Enigma - Rejewski - BEFORE the war and gave the machine and know-how to the British
If Poroshenko thinks he can win outright, he will never agree to anything Moscow wants. Perhaps more to the point, the US will not allow Poroshenko any leeway.
The reality remains -- the only way Moscow can get a deal it can live with is if it makes clear to Kiev it cannot possibly win. And that can only happen if Russia opens its border to any fighters (Cossaks, Chechens, Russians, etc.) willing to fight for New Russia and makes sure they are armed with exactly what they need to thwart the Ukrainian army, above all providing pro-Russia forces whateer they need to take down airplanes, take out artillery and destroy tanks.
Before too long Kiev will see the futility of continuning and will sue for peace, opening a breach with Washington. That will be Moscow opportunity.
If you're paying attention to Tyler you know that Putin cannot afford to play for this kind of quick local gain - unless it fits within his larger goals. That would be like trying to win at chess by capturing pieces. He's very clear that Russia is the intended victim of a dying Empire, and must play for survival. Everything has to be weighed in that context. Defeating the US/EU/fascist move on Ukraine may be close to his heart, it may be a political necessity, and being ready for war with the US may be inescapable no matter how insane, but if open war with the US actually happens, at the very best the destruction will outweigh any possible gain, for Russia or for anyone else. And that very best is very unlikely.
Putin knows all this and can never forget it. As clear a statement as he can make, given the need to not say things that will set off dangerous reactions, can be found at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBSzJ2wzb0s
The criminals that run the US and NATO on the other hand are apparently quite unclear about it, after 60 years of using the threat of destroying the planet to get their way.
The German government, representing the German ruling class, is a partner in the plunder of the Ukraine now underway. But the Germans have other interests that are becoming urgent as the Empire collapses around them: preventing a war or economic war with Russia that would devastate their interests; surviving the collapse of the dollar; and ending the US occupation. The three could be subsumed under the phrase "German Independence".
There is no doubt a great struggle going on in Germany over which path to take. All signs are that Merkel is playing for German Independence. But she has to play to a world audience too, and she urgently needs to unite as broad a coalition of Germans as possible behind this project.
I can't think of how an agreement such as this between Russia and Germany could lead to the implementation of the agreement. The US and its puppets would certainly escalate, quickly rendering it moot. Rather I suspect it is due to Maykel's need to claim the high ground and to win a clear mandate from the German people and as broad a swath of the people and governments of the EU as possible for challenging the power of the US, Great Britain and the Banksters.
What comes next I don't know. Probably no one does, but you can bet they're runing game-playing exercises on scenarios like this and studying the outcomes intently.
This fateful crisis could end well and in a relatively peaceful manner if only the Anglo/US uber-class would concede graciously to the end of the rule of the dollar and of their dream of full world rule. Honestly I've never once considered this possibility, it seems so unlikely, but it's what we in the US should be demanding, so we should probably think it through.
You ignore the fact Merkel heads a COALITION of SPD and CDU.....she has a deputy from the SPD....neither party alone can form a government.
"All signs are that Merkel is playing for German Independence"
where do you see 'these signs'?
schroeder and schmidt were there to support this view of independence. you don't hear from them anymore.
german business told her sanctions are shit. you don't hear anymore of that.
no reaction to the nsa until she found her phone was tapped.
no more gold repatriation.
gauck, thumb up his ass, looking for a new vision for DE.
DE is asleep. population is dumbed down worse than most of europe about equal to the ussa.
what signs do you see?
Putin is winning and Obama is losing. Obama now is offically the worst president EVER!
Backdoor Barry was the worst pResident in 2009.
The idea that Merkel can operate independent of London and Washington is laughable. Can you imagine the dirt the NSA has on her? from her Stasi file? She's being a good girl.
The issue is that Germany must continue to receive Russian gas until the west can develop the infrastructure to supply Europe from other sources. This means the Germans playing nice with Russia for a few years. Once Europe is relatively independent of Russian gas they'll renege on whatever concessions they gave Russia.
Somehow I don't think Putin's gonna fall for it.
"Once Europe is relatively independent of Russian gas they'll renege on whatever concessions they gave Russia."
...and just how is this going to happen?
Relevant and interesting take on the Russian Federation - Germany relationship after Germany has joined the latest round of E.U. sanctions against Russia:
The consent of Germany to economic sanctions against Russia will change Putin's position and will accelerate Novorossiya's victorya Must-Read!
ditto must read
We saw the new border drawn up months ago. Not sure it's possible to agree on it.
"That was July 20. The two leaders haven't spoken since."
I would bet my shirt that they speak each and every morning even before breakfast.
Read on. Again it turns out to be all about energy. And we have only four more weeks here in Europe before we will start to feel the urge to make a fire.
As so often in the past it is General Winter who has the last say.
While I didn't like Merkel from the beginning I feel now she is growing with the challenges, and might even join the ranks of Schmidt, Schröder and Kohl.
"GERMANY: REPORT OF SECRET DEAL ON UKRAINE `TOTALLY UNFOUNDED'
Which, if Jean-Claude Juncker is any indication, seals it"
Yes. And Merkel and Putin both speak fluently Russian and German, and they had a chat in Brazil. Those guys in front of them have been left out, see the photo.
It seems to me now the critical deals will be made without any need for the English language.
Obama speaks jive.
Remember, the new Deutsch Marks are already printed and ready to be rolled out.
DM, Ruble, Yuan vs. USD
Euro will be faded out and other Europeans go back to their own currencies and peg to the DM.
ECB will default like nobody's business and paper will get burned.
Chapter closed.
The first Deutsche Mark were printed in the USA 1948
"Euro will be faded out and other Europeans go back to their own currencies and peg to the DM"
and the difference would be..? the EUR is nothing else than a very fancy multi-peg arrangement
Do you remember what happened to the UK when it left the fixed peg?
"While I didn't like Merkel from the beginning I feel now she is growing with the challenges"
any sources for this comment? lol
Ha ha that is what they say on the teevee.
Hitler had no desire to have a war with Stalin's USSR
·
Stalin and Hitler both invaded Poland but Stalin did it a week later. Both Nazi and Soviet had a combined victory parade following the completion of Poland war
·
The Barbarossa (the plan by Nazi to invade USSR) was originated in Set 1940 after
o
Stalin invaded Romania who supplied most of Germany oil
o
Stalin violated the Pact by invading Finland the second time
o
Stalin has deployed 5.5 million Red army on the German border ready to stick first
o
Stalin has known about Barbarossa but Hitler started first with 220 divisions vs. Stalin's 360. Stalin had 5x times more combat aircrafts and 10x times more tanks but Russian people did not want to fight for sadistic butcher Stalin and his Jewish commissars
·
"Stalin's USSR lost 34 million people but won the war
·
Hitler has lost because he was an incompetent fool who prevented his army, first to destroy French-British expeditionary army in 1940 France, and then to stick to the Barbarossa military plan. This illiterate preacher started running the war by himself firing the best and the most capable German generals.
In other word, Stalin has forced Germany to strike first. Nazi Germany did not have a choice. Germany was not ready for a war with USSR. Hitler invaded USSR with 1 million horses as his major transportation means.
Finally, Putin as well as the present Kiev rulers are serving to different and competing groups of Zionist banking oligarchy. They are enemies of their people. This is why Putin is not supporting Rassians living in Ukraine. Puting is a member of Zionist mafia. The same goes for Ukraine President Poroshenko."
http://www.thecontroversialfiles.net/2013/03/angela-merkel-hitlers-daughter.html
http://www.whale.to/b/sp/blood.html#RUSSELLS_WHO_FOUNDED_FRATERNAL_SOCIETIES_
http://greghallett.com
You are correct about the reasons that led to Barbarossa, but you are wrong about Hitler's ambitions.
It was guaranteed to him that the expeditionary force could be liquidated without further advance of ground troops.
The defeat of France, a result of the "Sichelschnitt" was a plan from Manstein, but the whole German general staff was aganst it. Hitler was the supporter of this plan.
The big goal of NS was the "Volksgemeinschaft" (community of the people). Therefore, for example, Hitler kept all of the conservative and reactionary officers, he even kept communist embassadors. His friend, Roehm, insisted on the second revolution, after the national a political and social revolution should take place. But Hitler believed, if he reaches the hand, all Germans could only unite behind a government that wants the best for the people.
Late in the war, when Hitler recognized the whole amount of the betrayal in the Wehrmacht, he admitted, that it was his biggest mistake that he did not listen to "my friend Roehm" and not to have liquidated the reactionaries, "like Stalin did".
Because the Nazis did NOT remove their enemies, or didi not understand that there were people who did not give a sh.t about the German people, but were more interested in their reactionary believe that only Royals and Officers were allowed to lead a nation, the traitors played such a huge role:
Winter 41/42 - due to sabotage the winter clothes for the Heer did not reach the front.
Barbarossa: the Soviets had all German plans before the German frontline commanders had them - Stalin also had the info about the X-time of Barbarossa, bud didn't believe it.
Kursk: the Russians knew exactly where, how strong and how the German attack was planned.
Invasion of Normandy: it was Hitler who insisted to have three tank division in Normandy, while Fremde Heere West and played the Angloamerican disinfo and tried to convince him about the Invasion at the canal.
German marine alarmed at 2 o clock. Rommel, also a traitor, the chief, had left at the evening to celebrate the birthday of his wife in Berlin, although this was one of only a handful nights, where the invasion was expected - German HQ was without head and also remained silent for hours, while the German units already urgently asked for orders - the situation was clear for the units on the beach; it was so obvious that it was the invasion, that a commander of a SS tank regiment by listening to the radio messages from the German units, even could understand what was going on and wanted to move torwards the beach - he called the HQ to receive orders - silence - then he acted on his own and moved torwards the coast and while already on his way, he informed the HQ about his decision - immediately the German HQ was answering: turn around, move back from the coast, airborne units have landed! - the tankr egiment turned around and reached the location - no enemy in sight - this regiment then again moved torwards the coast but it was already dawn and the next day was shot into pieces and did not rech the coast anymore - without the traitors it would have reached the coast during night and until next day the invasion would probably already had been a failure (no possibility of naval artillery and airforce to intercept when enemy nits are close).
In Normandy big artillery was put into a state of service days before the invasion and could not be used.
The German airforce was not placed on the airfields where they should be.
Btw, the one who stayed silent and gave the wrong orders from Rommel's HQ was general Speidel. Later he became NATO-chief in Europe...
Because of the numerous traits and sabotage of his orders, Hitler tried to control more and more by himself, because he could not trust generals, that were lying and opendly sabotageing orders.
The lying and sabotage was so severe, that from a certain point on, he always insisted to have two stenographers present during the briefings - in case a general was claiming he had given a different order, that he could demand the protocol and refute the claims.
"My generals are lying at me".
After the war the traitors put the blame on Hitler and until this day the topic of probably the biggest betrayal in military history is blacked out.
Already in 1936 German traitors contacted London. They even flew to London and demanded from their reactionary cronies a war against their own country. In 1936 already.
I don't claim Hitler made no military mistakes, but without taking the betrayal and actions of the traitors into account, one cannot judge.
Kareoke'n The Godfather theme?
I don't see Obama in the photo. What happened?
He was golfing somewhere. Americans hate English soccer.
240+comments in 14 minutes? Is that a record?
Can they do that w/o obamabola's permission?
Obama is figure-head.
The question is whether the Wall Street- City of London bankers will accept such a deal. And the answer is: NOT if it means the loss of the U.S. dollar as the world's "reserve currency". And should Russia (along with the other BRICS nations) succeed in creatiing more financial alliances which EXCLUDE the U.S. dollar, the U.S. dollar will collapse, something the Wall Street- City of London bankers will not allow to happen, even if a European WAR is needed to prevent it.
AND the WS Banks cannot allow their debts in Euro Banks to veer off their influence and consequential defaults by peipeheral Europe. It is Germany's call to join which family in the global gang land i.e. Russia or US.
Germany's economic future lies with Russia and the other BRICS nations. Plus the German people are FED UP bailing out the other EU countries! And they realize that America is living on "borrowed money", with its most of industry off-shore in Asia.
HOWEVER, the U.S.government (via NATO) still controls Europe - and that includes Germany. Should Merkel even attempt such a move with Russia, she would soon wake up DEAD - courtesy of the CIA. (Of course, the U.S. government and the mainstream mass media would blame it on the Russians !!!)
FURTHER, the Russian people (in Russia) would never accept such a deal, UNLESS eastern and southern Ukraine were given much greater autonomy within a federalized Ukraine. Contrary to how Putin is portrayed in the Western media, to remain in power Putin has many constituencies to please within Russia: the oligarchs, the Russian military and the Russian people - and all three groups regard eastern Ukraine (along with Crimea) as an historic part of Russia.
Thanks for that fascinating info Jack.
I wonder if Merkel wants to engineer a situation whereby Germany establishes far closer ties with Russia (and the other BRICS) whilst at the same time remaining part of the EU and acting as the interlocutor between the two groups.
That would place Germany in an amazingly powerful and influential position globally.
one that has a tradition. the short word for it is... bismarckian. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck#Avoiding_war
and yes, this means a lot of things like EU, eurozone, etc. etc. even blowing smoke up to the British Tories's asses
Ghordius, the Tories are perfectly capable of blowing smoke up their own asses. Osborne seems to be doing it on an almost daily basis.
But I wonder if that EU<-Germany->Russia/China relationship comes about, whether the British government would make a play for becoming the financial centre for it.
The other big factor is what Washington would do about it, even before it had gotten started. Because it most certainly would sideline them and they wouldn't take that lying down. They would be left with Canada and Mexico and a few other places around the world. Brazil and much of Sth America is already somewhat anti-American.
I cannot agree completely.
Germany: This would be hugely positive for Germany and Europe, because France, Germany AND Russia need to cooperate for a good European future.
For 200 years the City of London and New York has done nothing else, than to avoid that.
But Merkel so far has DONE nothing that would be against the interest of the Jews. In fact she even proclaimed publicly that the reason of the German vassal state, was to serve Israel.
But it can't be denied, that dissatisfaction is spreading among the German political actors. Their life-lies of the peaceful and friendly USrael has been damaged by the revelations of Snowden and the arrogant behaviour of USrael is feeding their disappointment.
Russia: This deal would also be great for Russia and surely be very welcomed by the Russians, because the Russians understand, who is the driving force behind Europe's sanctions.
Russia is doing everything not to feed the Angloamerican provocations whose intention is to separate Russia from Europe, because that keeps them controlling Europe, and they already have enough problems with their Petrodollar and try to avoid the Euro playing a bigger role. Therefore they are also the biggst force behind the exapnsion of the EU with incompatible countries like Turkey. A souvereign and peaceful Europe is not in their interest.
Sadly Europe's political elite so far has not understood the lessons of history and the character of this evil force.
Ukraine: also lots to win.
So Germany/France accept the facts of the Crimea - which was only just, respecting the international law of self determination. And they know Russia wouldn't give up Crimea anyway, since it would be suicide.
As quid pro quo Russia guarantees Ukraines' current borders and guearantees energy safety (which would cost nothing, since the Russians over 50 years have proven to never break a deal, no matter what happened in Moscow).
It's a win-win-win situation - for Europe.
Ofcourse the City of London and New York's plan of creating a war would no longer work!
This would be a historic development.
And it would be too good to be true. And since Merkel (contrary to Schroeder) so far has only served Zion and done nothing good for Germany, I am sceptical that this story was true.
Maybe it's more of an alarming article from the Angloamerican warmongers to their fifth colony in Brussels, to observe everything more strongly, that such a development cannot take place.
On the other hand, vassals always play their master's game, while sometimes they try do increase their freedom secretly.
It's not impossible, but I have big doubts.
Hey Obama, looks like Vlad is banging your girl. What you gonna do now?