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The Intersection Of Church And State - In One Chart And 44 Bubbles
Curious what the political positions are of the various, and all too numerous some would say, religions and churches in America? This new graph, courtesy of Tobin Grant, maps the ideologies of 44 different religious groups using data comes from Pew’s Religious Landscape survey. This survey included 32,000 respondents. It asked very specific questions on religion that allow us to find out the precise denomination, church, or religion of each person.
Here are the key observations:
- Churches that are similar religiously are also similar ideologically.
- Evangelicals are classic conservatives (small role in economy, protect morality). Pentecostals want a larger role for government on economic issues.
- Presbyterian Church in America, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, and smaller Methodist churches have historical ties to both evangelicalism and mainline denominations. On the question of government and morality, they are between other evangelical churches and mainline denominations.
- Mainline churches hold similar economic views as evangelicals but want less government involvement protecting traditional morality.
- Christians in traditionally black denominations and evangelicals are similar in their views toward morality policy, but there is a large divide on economics.
- Catholics are large and represent the center on both dimensions.
- Jews are centrist on the economy. There is a major divide between both Conservative and Orthodox Jews and other streams of Judaism. This divide falls along the morality dimension.
- The “nones” are united on their ideology toward morality (keep government out!) but there are interesting divides on government services. Atheists want more government services; agnostics favor less governmental involvement in the economy. If you consider Unitarians part of this group, then they’re the most supportive of government services.
Some guidelines on how to read the graph:
- Each circle represents a denomination, church, or religion. There are several circles for types of Americans with no religion: self-identified “atheist”, self-identified “agnostic”, and those who say that have “no religion in particular”.
- The size of the circle represents the relative size of the religion in the United States. For very small groups, I put them in groups with other similar churches. In these cases, the circle represents collections of similar churches, e.g., nondenominational evangelicals, all Baptists who aren’t in one of the larger denominations, or all Hindus. The decision for how specific to make the circle was based on the size of the group in the survey.
- The color of the circle indicates the religious tradition of the group: evangelical Protestant (historically white), Mainline Protestant (historically white), historically black Protestant, Catholic, a catch-all category for other Christian groups, all other religions, and those with no religion. (yes, there are some disagreements about whether some groups should be coded as evangelical (e.g., Seventh Day Adventist) or even Christian or not (e.g., Jehovah’s Witness). We can debate these decisions in a future post.
- The location of the circle represents where a group’s members stand on the two major ideological divides in American politics. The numbers represent the percentile location of each group (details below). The political ideologies of religious groups are placed along two dimensions.
- Government involvement in the economy (x-axis). This is the major ideological divide in the country. At one end are the “small government” folks who want a less regulation, fewer services, and more market-oriented policies. At the other are those who want a stronger safety net, tougher consumer protections, and greater checks on the economy. In the Pew survey, this is measured by a question asking whether they wanted: “a smaller government providing fewer services” or “a bigger government providing more services”?
- Government involvement in morality (y-axis). How much should government be involved in regulating morality? Some people believe that the government should protect morality and should uphold traditional values and religion. Others think government should “stay out of bedrooms” and keep up a high wall between church and state. This can be measured using a question that asked people to pick which statement comes closest to their beliefs: “The government should do more to protect morality in society” or “I worry the government is too involved in this issue”?
Some additional notes on the author's website.
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Nope- not about me- it's all about HIM- GOD.
I deserve nothing more than death- so do you and everyone else.
It is only by HIS saving grace- nothing of my own doing.
So its about his ego...Thou shall not idolize another?
This is a huge untruth you have just stated. It is ALL about YOU and in the time honoured fashion you call black white, AGAIN.
You getting into heaven.
Your soul being saved.
God loving you.
You being worthy.
We've had a break through here Seek. This is precisely why these discussions are worthwhile evenj though we disagree vehemently.
God is infinitely powerful. It does not need our accolades or servitude or esteem as we can't add anything else to something already infinitely powerful, infinitely loving, infinitely benevolent.
This is all about YOU Seek. Don't kid yourself.
God is the absolute and ultimate extension of our EGO. This is what I have been driving at without crystalising the words.
Thanks you for the worthwhile discussion.
@BringOnTheAsteroid and @LogicalMan
"deep seated need for hierarchy" - Entropy - Order exists - Life exists
According to some theories the Big Bang has been replayed before - cycles of expanding and collapsing.
Just because we can't know everything doesn't mean that Life's is somehow worthless.
Each little bit we learn is beautiful. ;)
Hey, I don't think life is worthless however you define worth. It is an absolutely amazing experience this thing we call consciousness. A sunset, a skydive, flying through the clouds, diving beneath the waves - marvellous.
But all that's got nothing to do with preposterous stories mainly perpetuated by people living in the south east corner of the united states.
Do any of you americans have a theory on why so many vehement bible bashers come from that part of the world. Quirk of fate?
"I don't have a god or a higher power because I don't know what the fuck it means."
You have summed up man's dilemma quite eloquently.
BINGO
"everyone has their god(s)
stop pretending you don't"
Stated as though it's fact. I have to wonder how you came to KNOW that all 7+ billion humans on this planet ALL have a god or two.
"As long as your god doesn't force me into servitude I could care less"
I'm under the notion that a god is all-powerful and that if he/she/it forces you into servitude then there's likely little you can do about it. Fortunately, I'm not seeing gods running around so we all seem pretty safe from this kind of thing. What you SHOULD worry about is OTHER HUMANS, under the pretext of having received instructions from their god (someone above mentioned/referred to George W. Bush's being instructed by "god" [not sure if it was an upper-case god] to go to war) to force you into servitude, well... seems that this is pretty much a running human reality.
States USE religion, always have and always will. Got mitt uns!
Actually, I would put leftists beliefs culminating in communism squarely in the delusional folder, too. God/gods are specifically banned from that delusion.
The chart, if nothing else, demonstrates the true nature of religion: TRIBE.
Bring on the roid, the chart demonstrates abolutely nothing because we don't have any idea what the questions were. Most ZHrs know a chart is worthless if the input is worthless. Label the axis what you want but the data is meaningless if you don't know the method of obtaining it. If you think this means something you probably believe everything the BLS puts out and I can only feel sorry for you.
Hahaha, OK, let's try this. go to Wikipedia for want of a better source and generate your own list of religious sects that exist today. That'll do, forget the above chart. If there is a god, an absolute all powerful creator of the universe why are there so many different interpretations on what the message is. Every sect, don't kid yourself, exists because they interpret the message differently.
Tribes used to be based mainly on geographical location. Now tribes are based on moral predilections. We must be in groups, it doesn't matter how the group is defined as long as we identify with a group. That is the nature of the primitive human mind. Peer group pressure thrives on this basic, primitive instinct.
Tell me this. Hypothetically if we were told the nature of the universe and it had absolutely nothing to do with an all powerful creator, how would your life change? Would you be different? Would you act differently?
"Every sect, don't kid yourself, exists because they interpret the message differently"
Well, something we both agree on! Yet is was foretold that it would be this way:
"It’s true that some are preaching out of jealousy and rivalry. But others preach about Christ with pure motives. They preach because they love me, for they know I have been appointed to defend the Good News. Those others do not have pure motives as they preach about Christ. They preach with selfish ambition, not sincerely, intending to make my chains more painful to me. But that doesn’t matter. Whether their motives are false or genuine, the message about Christ is being preached either way, so I rejoice. And I will continue to rejoice." -Phillipians 1:15-18
It's a gigantic red-herring Seek and you've been swallowed by it hook line and sinker.
Mohammed was last prohet according to the muslims. Jesus is the wrong man to worship according to the jews. Mep-oh-my who is right?
When you quote from bibles there will never be an answer because each sect references their own holy book as proof. What a dilemma. Who holy book is right?
BTB: What happens to all the humans born prior to the message of jesus. Do they get a free pass or can god look into their soul and figure out who to let in.
No red herrings here.
Only Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, YHWH. The others are false gods, false religions. A tree is know by its fruit. Real Christianity is based on LOVE, false religions (including false Christians) are based on anything but love.
I answered your question about those born before Christ elsewhere in this thread.
I bet if I sat you down with a Rabbi you wouldn't win the debate.
Pretty sure Jews think they are right more than Christians think they are right.
Glad you used the word "claimed" by the way. Some truth is filtering into the discussion.
ONE: Jews rejected the Messiah, Jesus Christ:
"and all the people answering said, 'His blood is upon us, and upon our children!'" - Matthew 27:25
In doing so they cursed themselves.
Jesus came to preach to them, but they rejected their own Messiah. Jesus fulfilled every prophecy regarding the Messiah, yet the stiff necked Jews of His time had him crucified. In so doing, all who put faith in Him (Jew and Gentile alike) may be saved by His grace.
TWO: For almost two thousand years, there are no Jews. There are neo-jews, there are "jews", but there are no Jews. Jew is short for Judahite, a practicer of the Mosaic Law, which includes:
- Jubilee year every 50 years.
- No interest (usury) on loans.
- Animal sacrifice for forgiveness of sins.
-Etc, etc, etc.
There are ZERO Jews in todays world.
THREE: Only 5% (Sephardim) of "jews" alive today are descended from Jacob (Israel, descended from Shem), 95% are Ashkenazi descendants of Japheth.
Most modern day "jews" are practical atheists.
Fail.
Oh well, at least claiming jews don't exist isn't anti-semetic, is it ???????????????????
Like me claiming god doesn't exist, I'm not denouncing god in the sense how can you denouce something that doesn't exist.
Any jews here. Can you give us a ruling on this one?
Being saved was always and always will be a matter of belief on the Lord.
You mean to say we have absolutely no say in being brought into this existence but then we have to grovel to god in order that the dear all powerful mighty lord deem us worthy and then be eternally grateful he saved you.
Fuck me, you guys are too far gone to talk sense into.
I was going to be an atheist but I found out there were no holidays.
Logically, if you are an atheist, there can't be any holy days.
The chart axes are fvcked up. I read the instructions; unclear. Got dick stuck in ceiling fan.
This is why we only give you soft toys to play with.
For those that wish to prepare for what is coming, all ready here, they should go and brush up on their evangelical and fundamentalist Christian knowledge.
An American, not US subject.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
Sinclair LewisIm gonna start the church of Guillotina!
Wadda ya think chris?
Paying hommage to the sharpest and tallest.
Amen and "Cut 'em."
It's the quote that atheists use at every opportunity. But Sinclair Lewis never wrote or said that.
“Fascism” is generally used by those who have no clue. They complain about corporate welfare and authoritarian government, and then vote for corporate welfare and authoritarian politicians.
Why cant there be a religion based on logic and sound science??
Can anyone suggest such a belief system?
It would require more effort than the average human is prepared do put in.
I think that's the problem.
"Sound Science"??? What is that???
With the exception of Math and Physics, science is just another god.
You don't pray to science so I don't see how you claim it is a god. God is an invisible man that sits on a throne in the clouds and talks to people inside their heads. Can't imagine science ever being described in those terms. Neither does science relegate a soul to eternal damnation if you don't believe in it. Are we starting to see the difference yet ?????
Christians keep mincing words.
Science is just a method of investigation of the universe, physics and maths being two of it's tools.
God created an amazing earth that is reasonable in terms of what mankind has discovered in terms of laws such as gravity and other relationships. Science when studied with a reverence for God reflects His blessing. Not surprisingly, pseudo science with political agendas pushed by secularists and not under voluntary study for the betterment of living standards but rather via 'scientists' who are paid by the taxpayer via statist universities relies on 'faith' itself and propaganda with tools like the MSM to push agendas such as climate change where atop the whole propaganda system there are some incredibly evil people who seek things like population control, and who use useful fools who think they 'mean well' to further their agenda.
Sound science requires no faith or belief..it just is..i.e gravity, heat, electricity etc..etc.
Climate change is the use of some sound science combined with theory....theory is not sound science.
As I said, God did not create an unreasonable habitat/environment for us here. The laws of mathematics and science attest to His amazing creation.
Think of all that goes into even the function of say the ear. My belief is not predicated on judgments on this sort of thing, but evidence of intelligent design is not exactly 'not there.' That is what I am saying re: how the laws of nature work reflecting the amazing creations of God.
Your belief is his intelligent design happened 6000yrs ago. Through the sound science of physics, math and chemistry I can prove that the world and its creatures exsisted for millions of years.
Free, there are other forums to discuss intelligent design. It really is too dumb for ZH.
How did the first person appear. If you were standing on the earth at the time the first person appeared did they materialise like a scene from Bewtiched or I dream of Jeanie, instantly. Did they slowly materialise like a ghost slowly tuening into a physical human. Buddy, this is too dumb for discussion. The human race dispensed with magic many centuries ago although there still are some very uneducated people that believe this stuff.
Just for the hell of it, tell me how you envisage the first person appearing, or the first animal, or the earth. The first anything. Was it like magic?
Oh, really? And how do you know that the rules of logical inference necessarily lead to valid conclusions? How do you know that 1+1 = 2? How do you solve the problem of induction? Please do tell us.
Because it's a frickin axiom. There's nothing to know, it just is. That might have been a dumb example on your part.
Waaaaaiiittttttttt a minute - Lebenpilosh, you're a philosopher - run for the exits.
GOD ALMIGHTY, arguing with a philosopher might even be worse than arguing with a theist.
Hey Leben, how do you know you exist?
As a volunterist, atheist I can relate to your opinion. When I first outed myself as an atheist, politics became a substitute. When I became a volunterist science became my new belief. Upon further reflection I realized, like many other responders to your comment, that science is a toolbox for discovery not the omniscient, father figure that many pseudo intellectuals seek.
Religions, like unions, and political parties are tools that device the populace and horde authority over their members. Science changes quickly because the scientific method is effective, if economics was subject to falseafiable hypotheses Krugman would fall like the church of Scientology.
The public likes to ride the fence of belief. As fence riders they get hope from faiths and beliefs, and they get toys and tools from science. In my experience the fear of the future motivates faith, and desire for comfort motivates science. God worked its way into human history through fear; science was born from our curiosity that is why they mix like oil and water.
I think that has long since been accomplished, it is the bible, however I would also include a lot of the other period writings that have survived.
The snag is that one has to be perceptive and open enough to perceive it.
A closed minded person seems only able to judge those less intelligent than themselves. If someone describes a concept beyond their capabilities, they just call them stupid, when in reality the one doing the calling is the stupid one.
It is really a question of intelligence and perspective. The honest truth seekers are a really small group.
A great example is Quantum physics and relativity, the physics support the bible and when read with quantum physics and relativity as a perspective framework, the bible supports science.
Hebrews 11
1 ?? Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 ?? For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 ?? Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Why do you feel the need to link science to your belief.
You don't need science or logical thought. You can just say god perfomed magic. Unless of course you don't think god can perform magic. Let me ask you, Zadok, can god perform magic tricks?
I guess that depends on your definition of 'magic'...
It is a frame of reference thing you see...
Magic - I Dream of Jeanie, Bewitched, Harry Potter type stuff. Flaunting the laws of the conservation of energy and so forth. Wiggling your nose and making things appear. Waving a wand and speeding up time or slowing it down. That sort of stuff. Like god wagging his finger and making a human appear or a planet appear. You know, childish stuff that science has spent a gargantuan amount of time disproving, categorically, emphatically, empirically, for good, never to be discussed again THAT WE ARE DISCUSSING NOW.
I think I'm losing faith in humanity. All this talk of animals lining up two by two to get on an ark is a sad testament to our gullibility and puerility. It's mind boggling to the point I am stunned. Admittedly it's only a couple to few people but these are adult human beings we're talking about.
What have they put in the water in South Carolina, Texas, Kentucky etc. Are you guys being brain washed by the CIA or something?
What do you think these mean...?
Mat_17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Mat_21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Mar_11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
1Co_13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Good luck, try learning about the fundamentals of quantum mechanics, relativity, string theory. From that, define the terms used in the KJV and do original language studies. Words like faith, hope, love, etc. They have far more in common with physics that we have been taught. Govt. schools are in the buisiness of excluding knowledge, not teaching it. This will have to be done because you love to learn the real things.
I wish you well. There are some mind benders if you persist.
Have you considered that when people write things down that what is written is not actually true. I don't understand the blatant gullibility with the bible when people seem so discerning about much else that is written in the world.
Wish you well too mate.
Church of Scientology!
Considering the role of most black churches is to fake votes for electing politicians who grant them moar free stuff, the graph fits.
I remember being in NJ meeting with a conservative Jew, they do exist, and he told me about the local black church that could maybe fit 150 people inside that had 3000 members listed as part of the congregation congregation who voted by absentee in the last election. He said every knows they commit fraud but who is going to be the person that accuses a black church of voter fraud.
As a near Houston, TX resident, that fits! Really, really well!
Well darn. Shucks. Sounds like the black churches get whatever they want and make all the rules... That guy from jersey sounds wise, if only him and some of those other "conservative Jews" could be given a chance to play a bigger role...
No shit.
The wealthy, white land-owners got 150 years' head start and then declared the race to begin, that everyone was now equal! (equal rights, but unequal property- and when possession in 9/10 of the law...)
I mean, really, who could have thunk that there could be repercussions from making a US citizen only 3/5 of a person? And, to expect black people to pray to white images... Blame the victim.
Im not so sure Catholicism is the largest.
Catholicism is referred to in the Bible as the great whore of Babylon (Revelation 17). That is because it was created by man, not God. It was created by Emperor Constantine as a mix of various religions including Christianity and Babylonianism in an attempt to save the Roman Empire from collapse. The idea was to combine church and state to hold the kingdom together through this false religion. It's demise had been prophecied even before it existed in the above scripture. Governments often try to mix religion with state for their greed of power. God's plan is that Christ is the head and everything is subject to his leadership, any other system has always failed in the past and will continue to fail in the future.
While the majority of your statement is true, the first sentence is a well known misinterpretation by certain sects. All the following Scriptures are clues to the interpretation of what Babylon the Great actually is.
"The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.” - Revelation 17:18
"The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.” - Revelation 18:3b
“When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her" - Revelation 18:9
“The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore— cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and human beings sold as slaves. “They will say, ‘The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your luxury and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.’ The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn and cry out" - Revelation 18:11-16
"Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, ‘Was there ever a city like this great city?’ They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out" - Revelation 18:17-19
So we have the Kings of the Earth, The Merchants of the Earth, and every sea captain, sailors, etc bemoaning her fall. There is no way that sectarian Governments (Kings) and merchants and sea captains and sailors would bemoan the fall of the Catholic Church, so that HAS to be a misinterpretation.
One more clue to Her identity- "Your merchants were the world’s important people. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray." - Revelation 18:23b
Question: Does the Catholic Church have merchants? No. What is this "magic spell that led all the nations astray?"
The actual identity of Babylon the Great is this- She is the world's financial system of fiat currency, fractional reserve banking, credit, usury, manipulated stocks, bonds, swaps, etc. These instruments are the "magic spell" described aboved. The deceptive power of riches = magic spell.
Connect the dots- when this financial system collapses worldwide- every government (King), every merchant, everyone who makes their living shipping, transporting, delivering goods will mourn for Her.
And it will happen soon, in fact it has already begun.
Where you lack understanding is that Revelation 17 is referring to something different from Revelation 18.
What are you talking about? Both chapters are discussing the great harlot, Babylon the Great.
I see Elizabeth Warren getting a lot of votes from Historically black Protestant churchgoers in 2016.
Where is the representation of the Humanists?
When does the report about "mosque and state" come out?
Oh wait, in islam the "church" (mosque) and the state are one in the same! Islam: a political/economic/military system wrapped in the guise of "religion."
Theocracy. I'd mentioned this elsewhere.
In the end it matters little as ALL civilizations and empires collapse, and do so for the same reason: an inability to maintain growth: Genesis 9:7 seems like bad advice given that we're on a finite planet and all.
Those that walk according to the Spirit are sons and daughters of God. All else are deceived. So many questions simple minded people on this site ask. Instead ask the Holy Spirit for the mind of Christ & you will start to comprehend the truth of the creation & the gospel. The letter (Bible) kills, but the Spirit gives life. It is impossible to understand the Bible or God without the Holy Spirit.
Stated by a talking animal, about what other talking animals have talked about. And, yet, here we are, STILL nothing but talking animals, unable to realize that this is what we are.
As an atheist and libertarian, I find this to be rubbish. While many atheists are left-leaning liberals... certainly not all of us. In fact, atheism itself has a lot of characterics of libertarianism in
that we generally believe that everybody has right to believe what they want, but don't want belief systems pushed on us or mandated through government in any fashion.
Could somebody clear this up:
On the X axis, you have "Smaller Government / Less Services" on the right side along with 100%, shouldn't this be 0% or "Bigger Government / More Services"?
On the Y axis, you have "Greater Protection of Morality" on the top side along with 100%