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As Fighting Rages In Mariupol, Ukraine Soldiers Say President Would "Betray The Country" If He Backs Peace
The NATO summit of world-class golfers is on its way out (having achieved nothing material and merely regurgitating old talking points), but it will be promptly replaced with yet another round of "peace talks" in Minsk, Belarus where all the usual suspects are gathered as well as the leaders of the eastern Ukraine separatists. According to Reuters, representatives of Ukraine, the pro-Russian separatist leadership, Russia and the OSCE security watchdog began talks on Friday on resolving the Ukraine conflict.
Most participants declined to comment to reporters as they arrived for the talks in the Belarussian capital, Minsk, but former Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma said: "We all came for peace, that's the most important thing - to find a truce."
President Petro Poroshenko said on Thursday he would announce a ceasefire if the talks took place although there was no immediate ceasefire announcement.
News that the talks on securing a ceasefire had started pushed Moscow shares up.
A ceasefire agreed in June ended after 10 days because fighting did not stop, but officials were hopeful any new agreement could trigger steps to secure a more lasting peace after Russian President Vladimir Putin and Poroshenko gave it their backing.
Sadly, said officials must not be aware of the latest news then, that even as efforts to cobble together a makeshift truce continue (and ask Gaza how those have fared in the past months), the Russian rebels (as they are now known) continue to make territorial gains, and following our report that "The Battle For Strategic Mariupol Begins", said fighting has escalated and is now openly raging between Ukrainian forces and pro-Russian rebels just east of the strategic port of Mariupol on Friday, as Reuters confirmed earlier today.
According to media reports, Ukraine says its forces are trying to repel a big offensive by the rebels to take Mariupol, a port city of around 500,000 on the Sea of Azov crucial for its steel exports. It stands about halfway between Russia and the Russian-annexed Crimea region.
"Our artillery has come and is being deployed against the rebels," said the mayor of Mariupol, Yuri Khotlubey.
The commander of the Azov volunteer militia, Andriy Biletsky, said his men had regained territory from the rebels in a counter-offensive after they came within just five km (three miles) of Mariupol on Thursday.
"We brought sufficient artillery and reinforcements," he told Reuters at one of the checkpoints erected on the outskirts of the port to defend it from the rebels.
Mariupol became a major focus of concern for Ukraine after the rebels broke away from their main strongholds further north in late August - backed, Kiev says, by Russian regular forces.
Russia denies sending troops and weapons into Ukraine, despite what NATO says is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Whether backed by Russia or not, clearly the eastern militia is now pushing aggressively to take the one key city on the Ukraine Black Sea coast whose downfall would allow the creation of a land bridge between Russia and its latest territorial expansion in Crimea. Perhaps this is the reason why few if any anticipate any de-escalation breakthrough from Minsk any time soon.
"We have come for peace, the main thing is to get an armistice," said former Ukrainian president Leonid Kuchma, Kiev's representative at the Minsk talks.
However, few in eastern Ukraine, wearied by nearly six months of conflict, have much hope that a ceasefire can hold and some said it was a bad idea that would only benefit the enemy.
"A ceasefire would be a disaster, we would lose everything. By fighting we can resist the invasion and send them back. With a ceasefire they will consolidate and carry on after a while," said Ukrainian soldier Taras.
And an interesting undercurrent has emerged: now the Ukraine army is strongly against a ceasefire, with one possibly leading all the way to yet another presidential coup. To wit:
Another Ukrainian soldier who gave his name as Mykola said Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko - who was attending the second day of a NATO summit in Wales on Friday - would "betray the country" if he backed a peace plan at this time.
Finally, as for the benefits of NATO, it appears all the golf outing in the past two days was designed to do was to force the member nations to agree on spending targets. It failed. From FT:
Nato leaders have failed to agree new binding targets for raising defence expenditure – one of the most contentious issues up for discussion this week at the military bloc’s biannual summit in Wales. However, they are set to agree to freeze further cuts to defence budgets across the 28-member alliance.
Wrangling over national obligations to spend more on defence has gone down to the wire: while Nato diplomats in Brussels had already hammered out a deal on a raft of other policies due to be agreed at the summit, the text of spending commitment agreements was still being fought over as the Nato Atlantic Council meeting to discuss it began on Friday morning, according to people familiar with the negotiations.
Nato’s members are supposed to spend at least 2 per cent of their annual economic output on defence. Many members of the alliance had hoped to secure a binding commitment for states who do not currently to do so within a specified timeframe.
Only four of them currently hit their target: the US, the UK, Greece and Estonia. A number of other Nato members have committed to increasing their spending to the 2 per cent mark, including Poland and the Baltic states.
But many of Nato’s biggest powers come nowhere near. Germany spends 1.3 per cent of its gross domestic product on defence while Italy spends 1.2 per cent and Canada just 1 per cent.
Oh well, if and when Russia (and China) emerges as the new weaponized superpower axis and NATO is unable to do anything to stop then, one can always blame that too on "austerity."
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Patiently waiting for Putins plan to wotk so that I can witness the humiliatio of these Nazi assholes. And fuck Nuland, who the hell are these people.
Yes
Yes but Your patience is strictly counted in civilian casualities
Does Obozo golf shit into ventilators instead of balls into holes?
More cheap political posturing by the Kiev Junta in front of their Minsk negotiations. Porkyschenko is such a pathological liar, that I don't believe anything he or his minions say.
I'll bet that the average Ukrainian draftee would rather be back in Lvov, eating his perogies, getting drunk watching football, and banging his wife and/or girlfriends than dying horribly in Mariupol to make Porkyschenko and his criminal/fascist ilk richer.
Such a different view when you watch the Russian media...only difference with the western media is that they have actual sources on the ground doing, you know, media stuff like taking pictures and interviewing people live.
According to these views (see below) we find that the Ukranian 'army' is pretty much in disarray and with poor morale, as befits the evidence that they are now fighting desperately for Maruipol which is a new front deeper in....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEItEEjN3cg&feature=youtu.be
I hope you guys enjoyed your breakfast, but get a load of this BS from the BBC:
"The word Kremlin means "fortress".
For hundreds of years, that is exactly what it has been, with high walls, towers and a moat; besieged by foreign invaders, from the Polish army in the early 17th Century, to Napoleon 200 years later.
Today there are no foreign armies knocking at the gates.
Yet once again the Kremlin feels threatened."
WTF? So the I imagined the coup in Ukraine? No US funds, no special advisors? NATO expanding ISN'T a foreign army encroaching???
Gaslighting, ftw! Repeat something until it becomes true!
Artificially stopping a war without a winner is also an invitation to more civilian deaths. When you get to this point imposition of peace by force from the outside leaves the issues in place. Gaza would be my example. If they can't live in peace together one has to go.
There is no ceasefire, just hollow political chit chat. Kiev keeps killing civilians via artillery in Donetsk, and the Novorossiyans are slaughtering the Ukie conscripts.
I vote to break up Russia...
I vote to break up the USSA
You'll have to do more than just raise your hand if want that to happen princess.
That would be a very astute observation. There are quite a few places like that around the world where people never figured out a winner so they keep trying every few years to start it all up again.
Bring it Bitchez!!
"Bring it Bitchez!!"
Callous, ignorant comment from one who has never seen, smelled, witnessed, death on a massive scale.
Life in a war zone is not a video game.
Real people, who only wish to live their lives and see their children grow, die.
Don't know what sick society produced one such as you, but It's soul must be cold and dead.
Meh, I've seen it. I've seen the holocaust of fifteen thousand pigs a day, slaughtered so that rich men could get richer, and poor men could get fat. It's not that bad. You see one combo full of guts spill out all over the floor in the Rendering Room, and you've seen them all. The digestive tract of a pig is 90% the same as a human, so it's not like you can say it's all that different. Pigs were just living to be pigs, too.
They even chopped off the heads of the pigs and put them on a spike carousel where I used to work, like Lord of the Flies: Industry Edition.
I still named myself WOAR, and I will add my voice to ZippyBanannas'.
"Bring it, Bitchez!! It's about time!"
Is this going to be a standup fight.....or just another bug hunt?
You secure that shit Hudson!!
Hope and change dudes. Now when is my tee time? I always wanted to play the course where they held the Ryder Cup.
After a while soldiers get that band of brothers when some of them get killed and than the enemy just becomes somebody who needs to be killed.
So in a way, peace has become impossible because peace would only mean a coup would happen right after.
You have to keep in mind that these mofos dont speak for the entire Uke army. Who is this newly appointed mayor, he wasnt around the last time the rebels had control of the city. He is a NATO puppet put in by the oligarchs. And all this brave talk by these so called soldiers, are they the real deal or neo nazi squads trained by NATO in Poland?
These mofo's may not even exist, they are just propaganda mouthpieces for the Kiev Junta, designed to win the hearts and minds (TM) of the average Ukie Shlub.
Soldiers, conscripts, fascists, maidan activists, they are all the same to the novorossiyan artillery and bullets.
Its like advertising. They are trying to instill emotion in readers, esp. Ukrainian nationalists and conscripts.
Convince them that "no ceasefire" is what they want, and to keep fighting!
the US demand is just typical of a "throw money at problems" attitude. it works, until it dosn't, and then you are in real problems
why quotas? why 2%? if it's really about money spent for armaments, then the eurozone alone already spends twice as much as Russia, and the EU three time that
of course Uncle Sam spends multiples of that, as much as the whole rest of the world
And still new f-35 not flying xD
The F-35 is an over priced hunk of junk.
Someone made some money off of it....and that's all we really care about.
That why I laugh when people write about the secret weapons the US has.
The secret is, the money was stolen.
That's right. Those secret weapons are why we got beat up with IED's in Iraq. Family thinks like that, "The US is way more advanced militarily than any other nation and Russia will meet its maker."
I laugh... Ho Ho Ho!
Exactly. Black budgets COULD be for developing secret weapons, or it could just be spent on hookers, blow, extortion, bribery, leverage, gold toilets, like OPM usually is spent.
They make the money from drug-running, primarily...
The F-35 is better known as the ScamWow 10,000 because it easily soaks up 100 times its weight in $100 bills.
Now its Putiin's turn to stall for a while .
Looking at the actual evidence over at Col. Cassad, the Uke varsity army is
destroyed, and the NAF are really just mopping up.
The scale of the Uke losses is unprecedented with their supposed numeric advantages,
all squandered, and I see rope in the junta's future when this info gets out.
Russia and China
Russia and China are the founding member states of The Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) an intergovernmental economic and military alliance of mutual security.
Shanghai Cooperation Organization Forces:
Active personnel 5,325,000
Reserve personnel 7,675,000
Available personnel for immediate activation and Conscription 192,039,958
Total of personnel 205,039,958
The economic and numerical might of China, together with the military prowess and vast nuclear arsenal of Russia.
And Iran joins the SCO this month, with several others.
Interesting times.
They'd be crazy not to. Who else is gonna protect them from another country that's considered them among the axis of evil?
What are they armed with sticks and stones lmafao you are a hump...
You are the hump, try doing a little research. A by product of the US sanctions regime is they now
have a very capable conventional arms industry of their own.
Now they will have nuke cover from Russia.Look at a map, dumbass.Its a game changer
for the zionists anglo alliance.The critical game piece in the Great Game.
The sheer numbers makes arming them a decades long process, you have no idea of logistics do you fish brain?
Dude, it must be boring down there in Oceania hanging upside-down like a bat, I can understand that. However, your trolling is inexcusably lame... Try harder, or get lost. You are an embarassment for this place.
It's not who spends it, it's the type of currency and who manufactures it. If some country does not meet it's target someone else will make it up and bill their citizens for the vig.
Canada doesn't spend as much, because Canada doesn't have the same MIC the US does. The US has benefitted from this, and encouraged it (hint: it means Canada buys weapons from the US, takes orders from the US, and so on)
Canada has more polar bears than soldiers. That's how it defends its empty North...
Did someone translate that from English to Ukrainian for one of Erik Prince's people to say?...
Those 7-course dinners washed down with 1979 Dom champagne are rough on a Leader ... but someone's got to do it. Hard to stay sober long enough to play golf....not EZ.
cockpit video.
First SU-25 on Self-Defenders side | English Subtitles (Sept 3, 2014)
Might be a little stock footage thrown in there as well.....just sayin.
Agreed. Seen the blast scene earlier in another youtube video.
Wouldn't be the first time I've been fooled. A video I posted a couple months ago showing a Kiev jet being shot down turned out to be a video game.
I am not sure 1 is a game changer. The Ukies are out of other aircraft though so time to bring the Buk's back into action, so they can be snatched as well.
I doubt if the novorossiyans are even flying their MiG25. They are doing just fine with their artillery.
socal
Great series of vids on this. I was particularly taken with this one.
Thx for your post here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeEAlSVl8sA
I am surprised that Greece can afford to put 2% of its budget on its military
(let alone the US with 16 Trillions in debts).
EDIT: oh wait that was last month, they are now 17,7 Trillions in debt!
I am surprised that Greece can afford to put 2% of its budget on its military
In EU land anything is possible. It's a magical place where the psychopath's dreams come true!
At this point Putin holds all the cards, this will become more obvious as winter nears and events unfold. It seems both Russia and many of the separatist in Eastern Ukraine would support federalization. Surely, no reason exist for Kiev to be opposed other than a loss of power. A more federalized government is also the most plausible way of keeping Ukraine intact.
Support for sanctions is mixed in Europe as some countries fear Russia and have an ax to grind with Putin while others wish to move forward. Saber rattling has only lead to death and destruction. As I see it little good will come from further bloodshed and it is time for the West to stop sending money to Kiev so they can ramp up the violence and continue the civil war. More on the progress being made in the article below.
http://brucewilds.blogspot.com/2014/08/eu-moving-towards-deal-on-ukraine...
Winter is a lose-lose for everyone except Russia. If Poroshenko really wants a Ukraine for Ukranians, he'll take the peace deal and let life go on. If the whole Ukranian mess is nothing more than a diversionary tactic ginned up by the Mossad, and if that diversionary tactic is still viable, then watch Porky say no to peace, and then watch the Ukraine descend into an ugly, frozen defeat and fall back into the clutches of Russia (not that this would be a bad thing).
By that time, the diversionary tactic should have worked, and given Israel the time it needs to neutralize Assad and the Shiite-led government of Iraq, with the tool it has created for the job... Israel's State In Stead.
"Surely, no reason exist for Kiev to be opposed other than a loss of power."
One other reason.... most of the valuable natural resources are under the bit Kiev doesn't control, so the IMF won't lend them the money to keep their economy rolling until they do control it. Too many oligarchs anticipate making too much money from those resources to willingly go along with some federalisation plan, or other compromise.
Maybe the wannabe oligarchs like Bidens youngest puke Hunter is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian, but the Ukie oligarchs have already been bitch slapped by Putin.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29012163
Well, that's true enough.
maybe they will get their way if they
shoot down another commercial airliner
with 300 people on board? it is the
fascist/nazi thing to do.
Which side?
Did that ever get figured out?
What did the black box say? Did they identify the jets shooting at them by fin numbers or the locations of the flashes on the ground?
It isn't on CNN anymore so I don't know how all that "research" turned out....
The Ukies won't be shooting down any more planes since no major airline will fly over their air space. Besides, they fucked up the MH17 false flag since the plane was supposed to crash inside of Russia, not Ukraine.
You would get their attention if you snagged a private Gulfstream with an oligarch inside. Not sure who you would sacrifice but somebody has to take one for the team.
Kolomoisky will be thrown under the bus for MH17, and deservedly so.
After all this fighting, it is interesting that there are soldiers in the thick of action who want to continue. Wonder what these guys will do should a peace deal be struck in Minsk. Will they obey the orders and retreat or will they ignore the orders from the government and continue the fight?
Very likely such a comment is from a guy who hasnt really seen any action on the Ukie side. I very much doubt that those who were in the cauldrons would like to repeat the experience.
The Ukie army is a broken moraly devastated outfit. Kiev is likely desperate to sue for a peace plan so they can regroup. Novorossia should be very very careful and not be fooled into believing they will get their way anytime soon. They should push for their pre-march boundaries and keep it there. Razing Kiev just to make a statement would also be a fine thing to behold.
A Doolittle raid would be cool. Might give those in Kiev a taste of what their 'authorities' are doing to people elsewhere.
message to you soldier: redshield needs you to fight to death so the petrodolar lives.. you will be remembered, they say.
Remembered... until the war memorial is destroyed in the next war. Google "Saur Moglia".
Europe doesn't need Ukraine, Ukraine needs Europe.
NATO doesn't need Ukraine, Ukraine needs NATO.
Israel needs Ukraine, but gets ISIS instead.
Ukraine needs Israel like a hole in the head.
Russia doesn't need Ukraine... at least not ALL of Ukraine, just the tasty bits.
The US doesn't need Ukraine, but would be much, much better off with Ukraine than what it does have, which is Israel, a blood-sucking parasite that takes over its victim's mind and will, and makes them its own.
Strange that ISIS has threatened pretty much everybody but Israel.
Only strange if you didn't know that ISIS is a CIA/Mossad creation.
But, but I read on Quora that ISIS really really hates Israel! They are afraid of them... But rest assured they hate them. LOL
Besides gas, Ukraine is a breadbasket. Everyone needs food...
these ukraine soldiers are dumber than i thought if they think poroshenkoberg represents the peace option here, but he does provide employment for lots of people in his candy factory so maybe thats a factor
For some reason I doubt this is a true glimpse into the mind of the Ukrainian army.
Since when are soldiers allowed to be interviewed and who is interested in the alleged view of soldiers anyway? This stinks 10 feet against the wind.
Another indication that Jew Yatsenuk and the Zionists are doing everything to escalate things, while Poroshenko is not the crazy enemy of mankind like the eternal enemy of all nations.
Does that mean that ZH wants even more spending of NATO for the military-industrial complex? The libertarian mask thrown into the dustbin as soon as Zion calls?
I'd suggest to take a look at the numbers instead to spread such BS.
I think ZH is publishing this crap to give us our morning laugh.
It is amusing why protest?
"Oh well, if and when Russia (and China) emerges as the new weaponized superpower axis and NATO is unable to do anything to stop then, one can always blame that too on "austerity.""
Russia a superpower :D Thanks I needed this Friday humor, why arent you all buying RUBLES, since Russian eceonomy is so great???? Rubble is at the lowest point ever against USD, you will make big $$$ once USD crashes(any day now based on armchair analysts on here).
Don't laugh. Americans were stupid enough to believe in the propaganda, that Hitler's Germany would invade the USA. You underestimate the stupidity of the sheeple.
Finally come out of the closet with your hero as your avatar pic.
We all knew anyways.
Do you only have one testicle as well ?
Based on your previous posts, its actually your hero...Putler.
http://www.tickld.com/cdn_image_thing/692506.jpg
Actually I'm being objective.
Comes with my mixed parentage and upbringing, and a lifetime of experience dealing
with people in countries all over the world, understanding them, something a wannabe
psychopath like you could never get.
You do realize that reserve currency status, and 17trillion in debt is what makes America the greatest economic powerhouse on the planet right?
You should be selling USD and buying Rubles then? Easy money then...since Russian economy is so great, a supower and self sufficient.
Being early is being wrong.
But it's obvious that City of London and New York are trying desperately on several places to create a new worldwide war. So far Putin has managed they did not succeed, but even Syria is not out of the game, because now Syria is without possibility to retaliate a Zionist aggression with chemical weapons.
I see world differently.
I see from one side US oligarch regime and from other Putin oligarch regime.
I don't see any point in defending anyone of them.
Two evils manipulate and fight for more power. Why should I choose which evil is better? No!
But in Ukraine - it's Ukranian people land - not Putin oligarch regime! And yes, US oligarch regime banksters is already taking their chances and infiltrating to steal Ukranian people wealth. Starting with that Biden son.
Ukraine=Russia.
It was so, historicaly and it will be so.
A small fascistic Lv nation can go and drown in the Baltic sea.
Cool hand Vlad huh? "What we have here is a failure to communicate, he wants it he gets it" I feel sorry for russians now many will die for nothing. If Putin is also stupid enough to push the button, well there will be no place on earth safe for a russian after that you will all be blamed. You are a small thinker...
.
Funny comment coming from a small non-thinker.
"it's Ukranian people land"
NOT ! - it belongs to those who take it and defend it whether it is Biden or the Separatists.
Today there is a private auction going on for the Biden letter stock - any takers?
But yet you fully support the US oligarch regime and the hell they have turned Ukraine into. You fully support the west's random anniahlation of the eastern regions of Ukraine. Rebels. Is that what you call eastern Ukrainian citizens trying to defend themselves from the pro-fascist western Ukraine nazsi's? I don't see Nazi symbolism on the fatigues of people in the east. The Ukanian army wraps themselves in the symbolism of the Nazis. So your beloved nazis of the Ukraine army are backed by the United States, who in turn is controlled by the Zionists. You will learn to love your new masters in Ukraine as they prepare to clear the slavs out of the east first, then the west, to make way for the new homeland for the Khazars.
http://khazardnaproject.wordpress.com/
The US still manufactures more than China, we just use more than we sell dipwad.
More what? Guns, bullets, bombs, mortars, explosives, rockets, missiles, drones, cruisers, destroyers, submarines? Did I miss anything?
That alone should steer you away from the mouse that roared...
Hagel has said on a couple of occasions of late, parphrasing 'we are building a new world order'
The question at hand is, which side of these conflicts raging is the actual road to said NWO. My guess is that the conflicts are just the sideshow, the public fear generated through manipulation of minds into confusion is the actual road to public acceptance of NWO.
I am trying to stop watching the magician's hands.
http://sgtreport.com/2014/09/jim-willie-critical-geopolitical-monetary-u...
Well at least NATO agreed to keep spending at current levels.
And next yr. when they meet, the failure will be who will actually man that new 5000 man rapid response contingent, who will fuel the planes etc.
What a fucking joke..
For what these usless eaters cost for 2 days, fastfood workers across America could get that $15.00hr for 2 yrs.
This planet really does need an enima...
$15 per hour does not solve the regime's ponzi debt bomb and bancruptcy - but NATO can solve this problem; the bigger the collateral damage (btw. far away from New York) the better for GROWTH afterwards...
Agreed..
Forgot to add my /ironic tag..
The F 35 is only allowed to fly on nice sunny afternoons.
And it has to be back to base by dinnertime.
Majority of Russians wants USSR back:
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2009/1223/Why-nearly-60-percent-of...
Also Putin has declared "collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century"
http://youtu.be/nTvswwU5Eco
So what Putin regime do, is invade and occupy countries to restore USSR stye regime.
So Ukranians are victims to Putin regime and what else they can do than: citizens protest against Putin regime invasion http://youtu.be/zhEaxIYWy8E
And soldiers fight back as much as possible: http://youtu.be/McmcuUAT5dI
No need to give them facts. They will keep babbling on how Soviet Russia was different than what it is today, as we know it is not true, but they will hail Putler on whatever he does anyway.
Here comes the Ukie troll brigade, LOL. Why aren't you in Mariupol, dying with the rest of the Ukie conscripts?
As opposed to you the russian troll?
Fact, Winston, Rising Sun, and the Ukrainian Son himself are all late to the party.
This discussion started on ZH long before you guys showed up. Now after the fog has lifted, the facts are out, and you guys try and tell us what to think, and that we have it wrong?
You missed the consensus-building phase, deal with it.
RisingSüdi said:
Facts from viedoklaizi_dirsa? Best laugh I've had this day.
Therefore NATO was disbanded and thrown out of Europe. Ooops, broke all promises and expanded - not Russia.
And Russia stationed military bases and missiles around USrael - ooops!
And USrael is located in Europe, not Russia - ooops!
Zionists and their shameless lying and perverting of truth are the cancer of mankind.
Deal with ruskies is not even worht that paper it's written on.
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-explainer-budapest-memorandum/25280...
Deal with 2 million SS Nazis in Lv is it worth?
You funny little fascistic nation! Only your feet can be seen, sticking out of the NATO a$$.
I see you are discrediting your self by your own comments, please continue.
Ah, viedoklaizi_dirsa is back to provide us with more laughter.
viedoklaizi_dirsa should direct this to the mirror.
Still, his pathetic bleating entertains.
You mean this memorandum:
"not a formal treaty, but rather, a diplomatic document under which signatories made promises... Russia and the Western signatory countries essentially consecrated the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine as an independent state."
What exactly is a diplomatic document? Can you define it? And also, doesn't this mean the 'Western signatory countries' also violated the memorandum, by interfering in the Ukraine (you know, the Maidan coup).
You seem more the nazi than anyone else...
Go fight Goldman Sachs you Ukrainian morons. What are you F'n Stupid?
Yes, sadly the banksters are involved... again. The Uke govt is using the western 'loans' to fund their offensive defense. Without those funds the fighting would have ended long ago.
The banks win regardless. One would think at some point we the people would GET IT!
de-escalation
A step in the right direction
..