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What Happens When It’s Easier To Pay No Wages Rather Than A Minimum
As of today there is no hotter subject following on the heels of Obama-Care than the current fight brewing in the minimum wage debate.
Regardless of which side of the aisle (or counter) you’re on, the argument as to demand a government regulated hike of upwards of 50% or more in some places puts a question squarely on the businesses owners that must and will be answered: channeling the Clash, Should I stay – Or Should I go?
There are some arguments within this debate that have some valid points. i.e., We do the same for child labor. You can’t hire a 10-year-old at .10 cents an hour to clean out the grease traps at your restaurant, or sweep the floors and so forth where a competitor might try to use an 8-year-old at a nickel. It allowed for all businesses to be on a level playing field at the lowest of rungs. i.e., The entry-level.
Today the entry-level position has morphed into something far different when you talk to anyone who’s never owned or run a business. It’s no longer thought of as “entry-level.” It’s now looked upon in the ways one would look to some form of “career choice.”
But what happens when businesses decide their choice is to either leave – or eliminate the need for those positions all together?
The problem for many arguing on this issue is this:
At the price point of wages now being demanded immediately (upwards in some cases of over 50%) it provides not only the financial imperative to mitigate, but maybe the incentive to eliminate the positions all together.
But (and it’s a very big but) what changes everything and enters into this debate in a way that has never been possible until today is this:
Both the technology, along with the acceptance of it, might be farther along the development curve than many believe to foster such dramatic changes. Along with the availability for near immediate implementation pushing aside earlier distrust or fears of acceptance adding incentive to “employ” now rather than later.
To help clarify I offer this observation I witnessed the other day…
For my anniversary I took a day off from watching the Wall Street casino and ventured to a local casino where the odds and rules for gambling were fair, honest, and known.
I pondered with great amusement I actually had better odds of beating the dealer and possibly the slots than I did placing an order only to then be front run by the HFT de jure. But I digress.
What caught my eye was something that had been added only in the last 6 months. There were several black jack tables with people seated and playing. However, the dealer was a life-sized television image on a flat HD screen. The whole game was an electronic projection. Yet, so real and blending into the background was the set up – you might not catch it at first glance. Actually my wife never noticed till I pointed it out.
We’ve all seen the movies with the futuristic robots or interactive displays that seem so B-movie in nature. This was not of that caliber. Yes there were some quirky things as far as stutters in a few places but overall it was impressive. And it’s going to get a whole lot better, and faster, if this whole minimum wage debate festers further leaving businesses what they’ll deem as “no other choice.”
As of today casinos across the U.S. are struggling and one of the glaring issues one can see is when you enter a casino that’s far from filled are the dealers and others that are standing at their tables with no one playing looking almost sullen as you walk by.
The cost in labor on days like that must be astronomical. And what are they doing about it? Well to start, it seems to me the one thing they have started doing which has immediate impact is to eliminate it. For if they don’t do something fast – they’ll be eliminated themselves all together. (Again just look last week at Atlantic City NJ.)
Casinos have made their bread and butter based all about the personal and the interactive. But necessity is the mother of invention. And there is no stricter parental tool for getting one inline than the realization that Chapter 7 has no need of an epilogue for closing the book on a business.
In reaction to all this there is an entry into the new and once thought “taboo” when it comes to a customer interactive business. i.e., Can the shift be made into the Virtual Interactive vs Human Interactive in the most personally interactive of service industries?
If casinos, the once bastion of anything and everything “customer personalization and/or interactive excellence” has decided it’s in their best financial interest to go “non-human.” What are the consequences for other industries facing similar issues?
How much will this technology be pushed, enhanced, refined, and accepted if it’s deemed a necessity and employed en masse today – forget tomorrow?
Do you or I need to be greeted and waited on in a “fast food” styled establishment by an actual person? Especially when that person many times treats the taking of my order as an inconvenience? Or, is looking down and texting between my pauses when I’m ordering?
What about the many signs we now see where employers have to put up everywhere (I see them in bold red at my own local McD’s) “NO PHONES WHILE WORKING!” (Apparently no one follows the rules so they must be reminded with a posting – everywhere!)
The machines alone in most fast food places today are one step or protocol away from needing any human interaction entirely. Many of these systems are made with reminders and warnings that an employee shouldn’t touch them other than picking up the completed item and handing to the customer.
Just look at any take out windows soda fulfillment machine. Most now are completely automated and many require in-house seated patrons to get their own via some integrated Hal 5000-esque dispensing machine.
Not that long ago this was all thought of as “taboo” as in customers will never accept it. Now, getting your own soda is the norm.
Do we need cashiers if plastic is the “tender” of choice? Do you need to be greeted by a person who acts as if they have something better to do? Or, would you rather have a smiling LCD screen?
How about the larger question:
Will you pay twice as much for your current fast food order as a show of solidarity day in, day out, week after week, month after month when over on the next block the same restaurant or franchise is serving the exact same food with no noticeable difference other than a person taking your order, or handing you your order? Again – at maybe half the price?
If casinos facing ever higher and higher labor costs have decided to take the plunge and feel the odds are worth it. How long will it be before others feel they have no other choice than to play those same odds for themselves?
What may add insult to injury is if the very regulatory bodies setting up to enforce these hikes decide in order to meet the needs of an ever-growing unemployment problem implement similar ideas to better serve a possible wave of newly unemployed fast food workers. i.e., They decide to automate further.
Press #1 for recently fired, Press #2 for newly dismissed. Or hold to speak with the next available Gen-3500 interactive virtual assistant.
Don’t think for a second it isn’t possible. The inherent problem lies within – it’s far more probable.
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Yeah, once we break up the MLB, NFL, and the NBA, we'll alll have multiple job offers.
I love the idea of a robot dealer. No tips!! Tips can be saved for the cocktail waitress...
I like the way you think.
That idea will also save us all 15% everytime we go out!
“MAY-I-HELP-YOU-SIRRRR?”
“PLEASE-SELECT-YOUR-MENU-ITEMS-ON-THE-TOUCHSCREEN-TO-YOUR-RIGHTT.” “ONE-NUMMMBER SIX-COMBO.”
“SODA-IS-SELF SERVE…IN-DISPENSER-BY-WINDOW.”
“THANK-YOU-FOR-YOUR-ORRDER. THAT-WILL-BEE-$7.45-ON-YOUR CARD. “RECEIPT?” YOURRR-ORDER-WILL-BE-RIGHT-UP.”
“PLEEEASE-COME AGAIN”
At least they wont spit in the food.
When the trickle down theory doesn't work
Apply the take a big dump on the little guy theory to remind him who prints the money
Fuku Ben: + 1000 000
"Hey! Look over there! Weak and defenceless people are destroying us! You'd better go and join - I mean fight them!"
signed, The Banksters
Eventually you eliminate enough jobs that your economy collapses, then all your fancy robots rust in the newly-idle factories...
Business can either whine about the problem, or solve it. But I'm sick of the thinly-veiled threats from business..."If you don't do things our way, we'll go out of business..."
Good. So go already. But stop the whining, please. Having things your way has led us here...now what? Either labor gets paid an adequate wage, or you don't have a market to do business in. That's all there is to it.
What's the answer? I don't know, I no longer care. It is obvious that neither side will give a single inch, and nothing will be done about the status quo. It will be more of the same until the car hits the damned wall.
At this point, I no longer care to find the answers. Even if we DO, no one in power will listen anyway. So, let's just plow on ahead, full-steam. Get this shit over with already, so whoever survives the crash can move on...
Remarkable sum up of how I feel about it all. You can beat labor down to zero wage, good. But don't piss about lack of demand.
No, the fuckers riding in the wagon have had it THEIR way. That includes welfare queens and scumbag bankers. They are just shocked that the mules pulling the wagon are beginning to lay down and quit. They will have to get out of the wagon and support their own crotch droppings now.
How disillusioning it must be.
Inevitable.
" to the point their "efficiency" is now infringing on the point of zero customer service. " I agree 100%. What I see now that passes for customer service, honest billing, honest presentation of service contracts, and technical and customer support for problems? Jesus, when I was a kid my parents and all other adults would have never ever tolerated such terrible service from anyone they did business with. People expected to pay their money, get what they paid for and be treated well, be appreciated by the business and to give support to the product or service. Now days, we are told that "well that's just how it is". Fuckm a lot of this is our own fault. When I get shit treatment, I demand to speak to a superior, and tell that manager I am dropping all business with them and let all people in my circle what useless pricks they are. I have done this a few times. And as for local businesses, "fuck me once" "good job" But "you will nevr fuck me again, and many will know how I was fucked". I love seeing some shit asses face who tried to rip me off when I drop all connection to their business, and am vocal to others about it.
Circa 1980, Florida sugar cane cutters wages and "living conditions" costs increased four fold after "well intended" campaign by liberals led by the Palm Beach Post newspaper.
Following year, all sugar cane cutters fired and replaced by sugar cane mechanized harvesters.
Moral of the story: "the way to hell is paved by people with good intentions"
A couple years earlier than it would have happened any way ...
Mechanization, thanks to the Industrial Revolution and the use of fossil fuels (namely coal), is what finally made slavery uneconomical in the mid 1800's (a bit earlier in Britain and its colonies). It cost more to provide for the slave(s) than to replace them with machinery.
the solution (to no work and replacment by robot) may lie around perspective.
the designers of the robots, or even the programmers that program the robot designers can remain in the private sector and be paid royalties each time their program is used, rather like music or acting performers.
wait til nano bots are employed to keep crops and animals vermin free, just dont eat them or it may be you that is the vermin!
the robots themselves are a form of wealth in that, as with wealth today, wealth means not having to work.
profits, now there's the rub, if labor is replaced, profits and therefore taxes should go up right? no need for human facilties like desks, cafetarias or toilets or uniforms or training or health care or pensions or vacations. humans are expensive because of the need to take care of them. robots - not so much.
the robots need to be cleaned, stored and maintained when not in use and after frequent use. that could be done by other robots possibly, but not for a while yet (twenty years to replace all service jobs from cutting hair to issuing insurance or a mortgage or a loan or flipping burgers) forty years to get rid of human maintainers.
I really want the min wage increase to pass so I can watch all those jobs be terminated and the sheeple who work those now lost jobs will wonder what happened and then get all pissed off when reality sinks in just like how it did with Obamacare. Oh and of course prices to increase and people wondering why their money has even less purchasing power.
I'd rather these people didn't lose their jobs but it is clear the human species needs bad shit to happen before they actually ever clue in as simply stopping to think for half a second and using common sense to avoid doing stupid shit is kryptonite to most of the species.
The problem is that such adverse action will only cause them to call for more punishment.
If the robots are producing so much then why do those of us who still have jobs have to work so hard for so little?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-07/what-happens-when-it%E2%80%99s-easier-pay-no-wages-rather-minimum#comment-5192631
Hey Mark, are you still trading stocks by hand? Have you not been replaced yet by an algorithim? Wait, the machines are coming for your job too!
along these lines....
2 days ago I roasted my first green coffe beans...the beans were Kona ($25/lb) but they were far better than Starbucks...turns out they over roast theirs for consistency.
If cheaper beans (most in the $7 to 10 range) are anywhere near as good then I'm done with that joint forever.
I'm kinda of lazy when it comes to a lot of things but when I find something easy and cheap AND better then the little extra work is OK..
Oh...coffee beans keep years before they are roasted...so there's a plus for prepping.
"Opening factory, will trade, room board for labor".
Wage Problem solved, No wages required, we can use corporate tokens, and the "employees" can use the tokens to buy goods and services from the corporate store.
just swap country for company you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfp2O9ADwGk
I really can't see the difference between corporations and country.
Our govt essentially amounts to an armed cartel operated tax farm.
A corporation is essentially an un-armed labor farm.
What is the difference? if anything the corporation seems friendlier.
When more processes are done by robotics, there's going to be a serious problem with these no-skill workers.
The ultimate goal of the progressives is to unionize the fast-food workers. They can raise their wages which means more taxes for the govenrment and collect union dues with become political contributions to the Democrats. Also, the Democrats will increase their voting base because the union will be active on telling them who to vote for.
The words of someone that thinks it's OK for business owners to have an entitlement mentality.
what makes these sorts of commentaries funny is the perspective of the writer. the writer never sees that he will be a victim of the sme progress.
whether robots replace labor or not is not the question the question is when are they going to take the place of all labor including mentally skilled labor. this article points to another absurdity of the present system. productivity has always meant the reduction in the need for labor. at what point does the cycle become a nehgative feedback loop? at what point does the lack of need for humans result in less humans as it follows the natural track of living organisms on earth where relevance is critical to a species' survival in a specific habitat or the world. is this what is happening already in the post industrial world? does this lead to ultimate wealth for the few remaining "neccessary" humans or the end of the species as numbers fall to a level that makes long term survival unlikely and/or in an environment of failing infrastructure and a return to more primitive conditions? these are the scifi dilemmas that are much more important than robots taking over labor jobs including the author's.
Horse crap. McDonalds corporate profits are just about exactly what it cost the US government, i.e. taxpayers (you and me) in food stamps, and other forms of welfare. Same with Walmart. The crooks figured out how to pay slave labor wages, and push the cost on to you and me. Think about that the next time you're clogging an artery with McDonalds fries and a fish sandwich.
The real problem was never the robots, but who owns the robots.
If the robots are so productive and everyone owns part of the robot's output there is no problem, only prosperity. In other words the means of production are in the hands of the people.
Delightful news on the technological progress we are making to economically obsolete the hyper-breeding hordes of lazy proletariat entitlement-demanding socialist vermin whose almost non-existent intelligence and skills are so easily replaced by robotics !!! I am dreaming of the day when we shovel this foundation of the socialist politicians, eg the obama, into recyclers :-))
I proudly design & manufacture automation equipment that replaces mediocre humans who cannot or will not make themselves more economically useful than just a circuit board and servo motors - YIPPEE ! This is almost as good as sterilizing them !
This should help you calm down. Please come back when you can afford to make a purchase. Your kids are starving. Carl's Jr. believes no child should go hungry. You are an unfit mother. Your children will be placed in the custody of Carl's Jr. Carl's Jr... "Fuck You, I'm Eating.
Enjoy your EXTRA BIG ASS FRIES!
Scarcity cannot be revoked.
The value of all things, relative to all other things is determined by supply and demand.
Wages are no different.
Entry level jobs are like entry level cars. The price is the highest that it can be and still be sold.
If you raise the price of a Tercel to be the same as the price of a Camry, no one will want the Tercel, they'd rather have the nicer Camry for the same money.
Fast food workers are Tercels. Their more experienced and educated counterparts are the Camry's.
If the Tercels demand their wages raised, no one will want to hire them. They will hire more qualified people, or simply eliminate the positions.
There is no free ride.
Government is not GODverment. It cannot change the Laws of Economics or Physics.
If Government demands that Tercel prices be raised, there will be no demand for Tercels (because everyone who would normally buy a Tercel will either no longer be able to afford one, or will prefer to get the better Camry for the same money).
The protesters are demanding that their jobs be eliminated.
I could sell you a piece of plastic and claim it is a car but it falls apart the instant you drive it out the car yard but it only cost 50 bucks!
I could sell you a piece of cardboard and claim it was a hamburger but it only cost twenty cents!!!
There comes a point where we should stop kidding ourselves. Some products do not deserve to exist. Oh yes, I know let the freeeeeeeeeeee markits decide! Come back to me when you find a free market for land, because every other price is pinned by the price of land and land is NOT a free market.
WHERE DO YOUR CUSTOMERS COME FROM???? If you live in China, then all your customers live in Europe or the US. Why? Why can't they just sell the stuff they make to each other? Would their wages have to go UP or DOWN??? The Chinese often have 14 families sharing the same toilet and bathroom facilities. If their wages are so cheap, why can they not all live in mansions for the rest of the world to envy???? Oh, I guess they just like to share! Yeah, that's it. Maybe if their plumbers got paid less then there would be more demand for bathrooms. Sure.
The minimum wage is a little different from other prices. An increase in the minimum wage is LESS than the resultant increase in the cost of production. Even if everyone else demands a proportionate increase in their own wages, the resultant inflation would DILUTE DEBT and everyone would be better off ... EXCEPT THE BANKSTERS (who will then go on to increase interest rates or just keep lending money to idiots ...).
As I explained here:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-07/what-happens-when-it%E2%80%99s-easier-pay-no-wages-rather-minimum#comment-5192631
Go to Google. Look up Peter Schiff's "15 for 15" publicity stunt. Marvel at his assertion that doubling the minimum wage (at the time, to minimum wage = $15 per hour) would result in 15% inflation. Where is the "unaffordable". Minimum wage doubles but inflation is 15% and demand goes down? I don't think so. Or work it backwards. Minimum wage workers "took a 50% pay cut" so you could have prices "15% cheaper". Do you still think you are winning?
In the time it took my wages to increase by 40% (just mine, NOT everyone else's wages - I was increasing my workforce skills at the time), the price of housing went up by 400%. SUPPLY AND DEMAND?????????? WHO WAS BUYING AND HOW????????? WHERE WERE ALL THE COMMENTATORS COMPLAINING THAT THE PRICE OF HOUSING WAS DESTROYING THE ECONOMY????????? Oh, that's right. High real estate prices are "good" because then you can BORROW more money!
A little reminder: "Debt" is NOT "Affordable".
Google "Hyman Minsky" and learn the difference between "Hedge borrowing", "Speculative borrowing" and "Ponzi borrowing".
Oh, but no, the economy is going to collapse because we gave some poor people a pay rise. They would be soooooo much richer if only they were poorer. BULLSHIT.