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MH-17 Report False Flag Exposed After Revelation Passenger Was Wearing Oxygen Mask
When exactly a month ago the supposedly objective, impartial Netherlands released its official, 34-page preliminary report of the MH-17 crash over Ukraine, presumably based on black box data, air traffic control records, and other "authentic, verified" information, there were precisely zero mentions of "oxygen", "mask" or "oxygen mask."
Which is odd, because in what should become the biggest Freudian slip scandal in false-flag history, certainly since the Gulf of Tonkin, yesterday Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans accidentally revealed for the very first time ever, that one of the Australian passengers aboard the doomed airplane "appears to have donned an oxygen mask before the fatal crash, suggesting some on board might have been aware of their impending deaths, a Dutch official disclosed." Clearly a crucial aspect of the crash, as it points at the severity of the alleged explosion, yet one which was not noted until yesterday and which completely skipped the purvey of the official crash report for reasons unknown.
Needless to say, this makes a complete mockery of the story that the plane had exploded upon impact with the "Russian" missile, and is why there was supposedly no trace of any impact on the flight's black box recorder. Whether or not it also means that the alternative theory that a Ukraine jet had purposefully downed the Malaysian aircraft to serve as a pretext to implicate Russia, is unclear. But it also means that yet another conspiracy theory becomes fact: namely that whoever were the western powers who doctored and manipulated the "official" crash report of MH-17 to implicate Putin, not only lied but fabricated evidence.
Immediately upon realization just how serious the implications of this slip are, the damage control started, but it was too late. From the LA Times:
Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans apologized on Thursday for making the revelation on a television talk show the previous night, before the families of the 298 victims of the disaster had been notified of the disturbing discovery.
Timmermans gave an emotional speech at the United Nations four days after the crash in which he imagined the terrified passengers exchanging glances "one final time, in an unarticulated goodbye."
When talk show host Jeroen Pauw interviewed Timmermans on Wednesday night, he provoked the minister with accusations that he had dramatized the victims' last moments as a preliminary investigation report suggests that the Boeing 777's destruction was so swift that those on board were unlikely to have known anything was amiss.
"They did not see the rocket coming, but you know someone was found with an oxygen mask on his mouth?” Timmermans replied, according to the NL Times translation of his comments. "He thus had the time to do that. We cannot rule it out."
Well, actually we did not know because the official report that your country released Mr. Timmermans, and which we posted a month ago said that "high-energy objects from outside the aircraft" struck the airplane as it flew at an altitude of 33,000 feet, suggesting it had been struck by a missile.
Nothing on the flight data or cockpit voice recorders indicated the crew or passengers took any action in response to the fatal impact.
Which means the entire report is a fabrication.
So what did happen?
The mask found around the neck of the unnamed passenger, one of 88 Australian citizens and residents on board, was tested for fingerprints, saliva and DNA but produced no forensic evidence, De Bruin said. "So it is not known how or when that mask got around the neck of the victim," he said.
The discovery of the mask and the implications it raised about the passengers' final moments were conveyed to the Australian's family before Timmermans' interview on Wednesday night, the prosecutor's office said. But information was sent out to other family members of the MH-17 victims only on Thursday morning.
Timmermans issued a statement Thursday saying he regretted making the comment. We are confident that everyone else in the false-flag waving Western camp very much regretted Timmermans' comment as well.
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Most will accept a lie, rather then admit they are evil and must be tried for a crime.
This all takes time. Get someone to admit they are guilty, rather then proving it.
No one is getting off this planet alive, there is no where that the guilty can run that solders can not find them. i know a US Ranger who can find most anyone, and a US Seal that can get to them.
Know that time is on your side not the guilty.
Just a few questions 800. 1) you mention at the top about 30mm holes in MH-17 ---O.K. 2) later you mention a P-51 (which was a stand-alone fighter plane plane from WWII was using 50 Cal. guns) Why would a 1940's plane be using much higher velocity and killing power bullets than a fighter that would be at least 50 years newer and much faster than the prop driven P-51? Mistake or just another coiil of the the story unwinding.
Shit to shinola we got what comes out of the north end of a south bound bull.
Small mistake?? Lots of that going around lately. Milestones
Why is the guy apologizing for saying this then? Strange.
Psychology? he was weeping in the UN. Maybe he has a neurotic need to get his face in front of t he camera and sound important; it's practically epidemic, now, anyway. He seems to have a lot of difficulty with logical thinking; maybe driven by a narcisstic/messianic neurosis. "Look at me everyone while I emote and beat my breast"; etc. etc.
@Bell's 2 hearted, Agree with you completely. This new "finding" proves absolutely nothing at all. A "BUK" missile doesn't hit the plane directly, it explodes near the object and shrapnel is what does the damage. This story is sensationalism and nothing more. The plane wan't blown into little bits from the shrapnel, so of course there would be time to put on a mask if you weren't totally panicked.
Wrong. It proves the down arrow fuction is working perfectly.
Whoa whoa whoa, easy dude! Just return to the ZH circlejerk and all will be okay. ZHers don't take kindly to dissenting opinion. Because we are the dissenting opinion! If you disagree with us, you're mainstream. And thus part of the Zionist Federal Reserve Puppet Conspiracy. Read a book, dude!
Plane comes apart in minutes, explosive decompression within seconds. Someone (one person!) tried to put on the mask. Or the g-force caused that mask to wrap around his neck. Either way it was shot out of the sky.
"The passenger did not have the mask on his face, but its elastic strap was around his neck, said Wim de Bruin, a spokesman for the Dutch National Prosecutor's Office which is carrying out a criminal investigation into the air disaster"
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/australian-passenger-on-mh17-was-wearing-oxygen-mask-dutch-prosecutors-20141009-113yjj.html#ixzz3Fgvcz2wQ"Which means the entire report is one massive fabrication."
This is the kind of hyperbole and sensationalism that gives ZH its wing-nut reputation.
It's better to conclude that if the report contains one fabrication, it certainly may contain many more, for political purposes. And leave it there. We're smart enough to connect the dots ourselves.
when flight 800 went down (fuel air explosion) ... it came out (eventually) that plane continued to fly for a few miles without nose ... and altitude under 20,000 ... so passengers not knocked out ... do you really want families of victims to know that?
We can all feel safe with you and Goebbels deciding which information is beneficial for the public.
haha
i'll let you in on something
sometimes a "grassy knoll" is just a ... grassy knoll
Mmmhmmm. We're from the government and we're here to help. Remember the Maine. Loose lips sink ships. Good sheep. Go to sleep now.
FYI, you may not have heard, but it was recently established that the "conspiracy theories" about flight 800 being shot down by a missile are actually "conspiracy fact".
let me guess ... twin towers and building 7 brought down by explosives too?
at least you're consistent with your ignorance
next!
No, WTC7 was brought down by a BIC lighter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvx904dAw0o
And a flatulent jewish bond trader... don;t forget to throw the Jew into conspiracy. It's not a valid conspiracy without a Jew at the center.
TWA800 was a millitary misfire accident that was cover up to prevent public outrage and uncomfortable questions.
9/11 was a pre-planned plot, whether it was a planned by crazed hijackers or some tentacled beast, I have no opinion...
I disagree. It points to a massive fabrication regarding an event Russia was immediately blamed for across the media and government officials.
I originally thought it quite possible that eastern "rebels" were essentially tricked into shooting it down. But the preponderance of the credible evidence strongly suggests that this was a deliberate shootdown by Ukraine in order to blame Russia/Putin. That is massive.
Hence, while I do appreciate the general call to avoid hyperbole, I think that this lie, in context, warrants the conclusion. Nothing "wing nut" about it. Just my 2 cents, I appreciate your take though.
On the other hand
Unless it was shot down because they thought it was Putin's plane.
They couldn't blame Putin for that
This was US way of getting back at the Malaysians, twice, for putting Bush et al on trial for war crimes and convicting them in absentia
so instead of blowing up immediately, it took a while to hit the ground? this doesnt mean it wasnt hit by a missile tho. what i am saying is that this isnt exactly a "game changer". they will be able to come up with some BS
Huh? I'm all of conspiracy circle-jerks but this is tinfoil hattery to the extreme. Anyone consider that maybe the plane didn't explode immediately and someone put on the fucking mask that came down from the ceiling before they died??
Heck, there's even a youtube video someoen took showing the jet high up there still in one piece with flames trailing it.
Perhaps re-reading the first sentence should help with your confusion.
Hey, Tyler, can you make the newbies take some kind of test? The trolls are annoying.
Running their source ISPs might be fun for the rest of us. Shine some light on the cockroaches hey?
Dissenting opinion = Troll
Hey, can you send Fonz an apology email and get him back?
He is back, he was spotted here a few days ago.
Why didn't the crash site look like the front lawn at the Pentagon – plane debris no where? That’s the real question.
Did he put it on or did someone else, this is all cock.
due to the missile impact, the mask came down and wrapped itself around the guy's neck, strangling him.
I thought there were pictures of holes in the fuse from cannon fire(bullet holes).
thats your imagination. Please provide your SSN for the audit
That;s right; there are. this guy's story is just part of some fabrication. I think we're supposed to "forget" about the 30mm holes now; while we get all hot and wet about the oxygen mask. Those fucking missiles are huge they make huge firing signatures; everybody with any satelite capability in the whole region would have pictures of t he launch. But, of course, no one does.
"Needless to say, this makes a complete mockery out of the story that the plane had exploded upon impact with the "Russian" missile"
Ya don't say... ya mean US lied?
I'm shocked I tell ya, shocked.
An oxygen mask found on a MH370 passenger would be more significant
The plane being found woud be more signifcant.
Dont you know? It´s parked in hangar at Diego Garcia.
Its at this moment being "stuffed" with ebola dead people from west africa....soon to visit a city near you!
Well, if the plane was shot down and passengers had time to put on oxygen masks, wouldn't there be some mention of it on the cockpit recorder?
Also, why would only one passenger be wearing an oxygen mask? Wouldn't they all have put them on?
On the other hand, if the plane was hit by a missile there would be immediate decompression and oxygen masks might drop down. Maybe only one passenger was still conscious after the explosion. To me, this supports the missile theory.
A missile hit would cause an explosion and everyone on board would die from the explosive decompression... the debris field would be quite dispersed.
The initial report claimed that a number of high energy objects hit the fuselage... cannon fire from an aircraft most likely. The plane would go into a dive possibly though not necessarily break up on the way down.. still time for some passengers to don air masks.
If Russia or the Ukrainina separitists were responsible... there would have been a hew and cry from the MSM like no other..instead this story has been buried.
Interesting that the colours painted on Malaysian Airlines are the same colors as the Russian Federation... there is speculation that a Ukrainian pilot took the initiative to shoot down what he surmised was a Russian aircraft.
Rapid decompression isn't necessarily fatal. My HS science teacher was an ex-USAF pilot and he described an incident where his plane was flying at > 40K feet and suddenly decompressed. He said the cockpit immediately filled with fog, but they were able to quickly descend and were basically OK except for eardrum damage.
Also, missiles are equipped with proximity fuzes and sometimes explode without actually hitting the plane. The missile debris is enough to take down the plane.
Tell that to Payne Stewart. And the family in the Lear last month.
Military planes might be built differently. They expect to be shot at, and where pressurized suits.
The NTSB was never able to determine exactly what happened in the Payne Stewart case. One possibility they mentioned was a slow decompression that caused hypoxia to set in before anyone noticed it.
If sudden decompression was immediately fatal, why would they bother to install oxygen masks in planes? Oxygen masks only make sense if people are able to survive the initial decompression.
Missiles seek the heat of the engines. Fuel tanks are midfuselage along the wings. A missile hit would be characterized by a huge fireeball explosion with a widely dispersed debris field. The investigators have said the FUSELAGE was impacted by a number of high energy objects. An airplane shot down by cannon fire would have a partially intact but perforated fuselage in a more concentrated debris field. Connect the dots.
Many missiles do seek engine heat. But that doesn't mean that the missile only explodes when it hits the plane. Often the missile will detonate when it gets sufficiently close to the target. So the plane can be taken down even in cases where the missile would have actually missed it.
The air speed of an African swallow is...
In this case the glide ratio of flight MH17 is 15:1...
> For example, with a glide ratio of 15:1, a Boeing 747-200 can glide for 150 kilometres (93 mi) from a cruising altitude of 10,000 metres (33,000 ft)...
How convenient, I didn't have to do a single calculation.... now, last locations of MH17...
The crash site was how far away from point of last contact? Certainly not 150km, more like 10 to 15km with the debris spread over 5km or so... Feel free to correct this last statement, I am going by memory. And yet someone had time to get an oxygen mask around their neck with a TUC of of between 20 to 30 seconds (assuming explosive decompression)?
Last positions of #MH17 directly from Flightradar24 database. Signal was lost around 13:21 UTC at 33,000 feet.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/mh17-pinpointing-the-precise-location-o...
scroll down you'll find the data,
Sorry, but it takes a lot longer than 20 to 30 seconds for a stricken plane to go from 33,000 feet to 0. You are saying the airliner went from 33,000 feet to the ground at a speed of 1,125 miles per hour. Nope.
At cruise, the aircraft was proably going about 580 MPH, give or take. After it began to break up in flight, it would decelerate because or air resitance, with its various pieces and parts likely going around 185 MPH upon impact.
"To me, this supports the missile theory."
That maybe true but I don't think many people dispute the "missile theory". It's always been a question of where the missile was fired from. We already know where the 30mm canon was fired from that littered the fuselage around the cockpit area. So the missile came from the same place. IE a Ukraine air force SU-25. A false flag.
Maybe you made a typo, but a SU-25 could not intercept a Boeing 777 at 33,000 feet altitude. First, the SU-25 can not fly that high, with a serivce ceiling of about 23,000 feet, or 10,000 feet below the Boeing's cruising altitude. Also, the Boeing cruises at speeds above what the SU-25 can attain at altitude.
We don't get to listen to t he cockpit recorder !! Nobody does !. Just like the Zapruder film it's put away so as not to disturb anyone.
Tyler states: "Nothing on the flight data or cockpit voice recorders indicated the crew or passengers took any action in response to the fatal impact."
How does Tyler know what was on the recorders?
Tyler is pointing out the discrepancy between the official report of what was on the data recorders, and what the Dutch politician said, which directly contradicted the official report.
For Christ's sake Tylers, I can only handle so much alarm at once. Ebola, fake jobs reports, false flags, racism, wage inequality, education.. I don't know which way to look. Should I kill myself or make a cup of coffee?
Both? In no particular order?
Have you been able to get on enenews in the past few hours?
Funny thing about this is that, coupled with all of the other false-flags, and the big Pharma supporting "Swine Flu" false-flag of 2009, people still believe that Ebola is breaking out in the DC US.
They don't lie some of the time, they lie all of the time.
An American, not US subject.
"Don't believe the tripe, it's a sequel."
How dare ZH publish this outrageous article.
"Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories"
Someone from David Cameron's office will be contacting you shortly. They are pursuing all legal avenues to threaten and intimidate you into silence and compliance. They are allegedly consulting with an infamous clown in a costume from the state of Connecticut in America for their expert opinion.
Paging Cass Sunstein, paging Css Sunstein.
Cass Sunstein?
Oh, I see his boys are already here.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but don't the masks deploy automatically in the event of a loss of cabin pressure?
A plane doesn't usually explode mid-air when the missle explodes. The missle is tiny compared to the plane. When it explodes, it's designed to structurally compromise the plane, perforate the fuselage, damage the engines and wings, and make it unflyable. It makes the plane fall out of the sky. If the masks deployed a passenger would have had enough time to don the mask.
Miner, exactly right. But that doesn't fit the narrative that some people on ZH espouse.
ZH has espoused that the narrative by the west was suspect and this omission from the official report only hardens their case, now go back to your water cooler at .govfuckup
I agree as well.
The evidence points at something peppering the front of the plane with shrapnel/bullets with the rest of the body remaining intact for a while. A Buk missile is designed to down a fighter sized aircraft by disabling it, the warhead is not big enough or designed to 'explode' its target let alone an airliner.
The actual decompression does not kill, it is lack of oxygen. The masks should have dropped automatically and there is a chance that not just this Australian but many passengers, especially those with their belts done up, remained alive using the masks until impact.
The plane explodes my friend, take my word for it. No, no time to put on an oxygen mask. If your falling from 10 miles up, I think the last thing on your mind is an oxygen mask.
I respectfully disagree.
They wouldn't be 10 miles up, and the wreckage shows that large chunks of the aircraft were still together until it hit the ground. The normal altitude for commercial aircraft is around 30,000 feet, or 10,000 meters. If you make worst case scenario assumptions, outlined below, the plane would have been in the air at least another 30 seconds before it hit the ground. "Place the mask over your mouth and nose and secure it with the straps" is drilled into your head every time you get on a plane. I maintain it is fully reasonable that someone could get their mask on before impact.
Worst case scenario assumptions are that the plane is traveling straight down at 300mph or 134m/s at the time of impact and continued accelerating straight down with no lift or wind resistance whatsoever. The presence of lift, wind resistance, or a non-vertical flight path only increases the amount of time between impact and crash.
The 64,000 Euro question is in 2 parts: A. Does an audio or other alert indicate that the masks have deployed in the normal operation of the aircraft? and B. Is that signal present on the FDR? If it's not, then its absence on the FDR is suspect.
Regarding the "consensus" around what happened, I don't really care. Someone screwed up and shot down a Passenger Airliner. Before the facts were known, a giant propaganda machine (likely from my country) tried to blame Russia. When the facts on the ground didn't make that clear, the propaganda machine coasted on its own inertia before moving on to something else. The machine forgot about Ukraine entirely when ISIS started killing people, and it stopped being news. I feel, based on nothing more than my own observations, that an outside party (again likely from the United States) is using the Ukraine conflict to weaken Russia for political purposes. The exact objective likely remain a mystery beyond my death until a 50 or 100 year classified material review brings it out into the open. Barring the development of Cryonics or Life extension technology I am unlikely to ever know the real answer.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/american-pravda-who-shot-down-flight-mh17-i...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVdwUdlswOY
I don't know is this false flag or not but around fall of MH-17 is too many coincidence. Let see:
1) Putin travel to South America whe he meet with number of different leaders , completely destroy Obama plan of isolations in USA backyard.
2) Oil was 105-110
3) EU absolutely don't think about sanctions
4) Rebels in East Ukraine, after pullback from Slovyansk made huge offensive and created south encirclement for ukraine army.
5) Poroshenko was ready for peace plan.
And than-boom, MH-17 down, most victims are from Nederlands, country which has greate relations with Russia, they even send high delegation on open ceremony in Sochi, which USA don't like. Putin is on plane from South America, and complete hysteria next few days in western media. Oil start "correction"(now it is nearly 20% basically on same, or even worse conditions, for oil productions, like in mid june) and EU are under huge USA pressure(Baiden admitted) to introduce sanctions on Russia, which they do in end of july.
I don't know if USA is behind this, maybe some idiot in Kiev, oligarch pay somebody or something like that but too many coincidences.
Don't forget the statement Mme Lagarde made to the press club at the beginning of the year telling the small clueless world about the magic number 7 and how there is a G7 (when at the time it was still a G8).
Always good to view this again and again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYmViPTndxw
MH 17 goes down on the 17th of the 7th month
Coincidence my ass
Im not flying for obvious reasons. Im not driving because the police will rob me. Its time to protect yourself.
The very fact that Farnborough have the black box(es) and said it will take a year to determine cause tells anyone with more than 2 brain cells who brought the plane down, notwithstanding photos of the cockpit riddled with cannon fire.
I think it was a false flag but not sure how much an oxygen mask around the neck of one passenger proves. I understand they are deployed upon decompression, but come on... The pictures on the ground showed everything flew apart and was in pieces. I'm surprised the poor guy still even had a head or a neck.
So if a fight attendant was found without any of her clothes on does that really mean she was banging a passenger mid-flght? Probably not.
I need more for "proof", like 50 cal holes in the fuselage. Unfortunately, I'm not holding my breath on such things to surface anytime soon, either. That day has passed.
30mm holes; and t hey already leaked. but you're supposed t o forget about t hem.
There are no holes from 30mm cannon fire. Easily provable by looing at the photos.
Moar politicians lying through their teeth. Why would a Dutch politician be any different? Those so-called "Christian Democrats" have the Nederlands in their grip. And they will tow the NATO line, every time.
Motherfuckers.
Zionism delenda est.
putin is a known known
a bully bully.
he could have had fsb on the plane with a gun forcing the post modern anne franks to take off the oxygen masks.
looks like one guy got away or got missed in the kgb dragnet.
either that or putin got his friend steven seagal to parachute into the crash site to complete the mask putting on broken dutch face psy operation.
what ever way you skin this sore headed bear this stinks of vlady vostok moscowvite special operations executives.
LOL, what time do you start drinking, anyway?
Myself, just finishing the first ale. Cheers!
i could translate it for you?
but i do not speak mule!
tony, I never knew psychosis could be so funny.
I always upvote Wilson because his prose is so disturbed.
High altitude AA gun would be capable of downing MH17:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/130_mm_air_defense_gun_KS-30
A missile would have reduced MH17 to flaming debris in the blink of an eye so this passenger having sufficient time to receive an oxygen mask being deployed has just destroyed the official story.
what if the russian buk explosion hit forced depressurisation of the main fuserularge forcing the oxygene jean michelle jarre custom face masks to shoot forwards and downwards the zerogravity g forces forcing the masks to couple onto cranium then full face positioning all in 000.0.2 of a fraction of a second minute.
kind of like the magic bullet grassy noel theory
cheney and aipac and the talmudicks rabbi said putin did it that is good enough for me.
Something isn't right, the jet fuel should have disintegrated the plane and all evidence as it burned like 9/11...
Surely this also serves as proof that Obama is trying to kill us all with ebola. I am volunteering to stay in harms way while the rest of you idiots crawl into your holes and hide. I will let you know when it is safe to come out. Just remember it is imperative for you to remain quietly in your holes until further notice.
Wearing an oxygen mask is not unusual , especially for passengers on beta-blockers .
So , not too much emphasis should be placed on this circumstantial evidence .
Sometimes , the trout in the milk was just in the wrong place at the wrong time .
See http://andreswhy.blogspot.com/2010/11/flightrage-and-betablockers.html
I've flown around the world a number of times and have never seen anyone wearing an oxygen mask FROM THE PLANE.
Carry on oxygen, yes.
The emphasis is that if the black boxes were intact they would have recorded the masks being deployed - and the explosion. Unless the plane was desintegrated on impact whereas noone would have had time to put their mask on.
One of them was wearing an argon mask, obviously an alien agent from Planet Z.
Gas masks are selling quite well in Iceland right now because of gas in the air, mostly sulfur dioxide, This is produced by the volcanic eruption at Holuhraun.
The sun and the moon sometimes change color because of this.
This is what the sun looked like this morning. http://www.mbl.is/frettir/innlent/2014/10/09/raud_sol_yfir_reykjavik_myn...
It looks really cool, Its almost like being on another planet.
When the eruption started there was considerable pollution, but fortunately the hurricane Cristobal showed up and swept this blue haze out to sea. http://www.visir.is/island-i-auga-stormsins/article/2014140909969
Is TimmerMan a Member of the Tribe?
Mo Sad if he Is.
Tyler, ZH was such an awesome site in the beginning. It's so depressing to see you consistently lapse out of reality and into pure, unadulterated, misinformed, ignorant speculation.
There is nothing inconsistent about one pax being found with a donned oxygen mask and a missile shootdown being the cause of the crash, and there is no sane reason to jump to the idiotic conclusion that this "proves" that "the whole story was false". All that has been proven here is that ZeroHedge is astonishingly ignorant about aviation safety matters, and unabashed about flaunting that ignorance in the form of outspoken declarations of "proof" when none exists.
The oxygen masks deploy automatically on a loss of cabin pressure. The business about someone "knowing in advance of their impending deaths" makes zero sense because the masks would not have deployed or been available to the pax until the missile exploded compromising cabin pressure. You are assuming that the missile impact would instantly kill everyone onboard, and that's idiotic. Some may have died from missile blast impact, but those seated at the other end of the aircraft from the missile blast's center of force would still be alive, and it's not at all surprising that at least one pax was able to don a mask during the minute or more it would have taken for even a broken-up fuselage to fall to the ground from FL330.
In short, NONE of your idiotic conclusions pass muster to even the slightest bit of scrutiny. As USUAL, you are a complete charlatan, Tyler, spouting off about "proof" when you don't have the foggiest clue of which you speak.
xPat
Licensed Airline Transport Pilot and former airline Captain
In the interest of being complete... My comments above are based on the assumption we're talking about one of the aircraft's oxygen masks.
In the alternate scenario that we're talking about a pax with a mask and portable oxygen bottle that was in use independent of the aircraft's systems, then your argument is even weaker. Plenty of people need supplemental oxygen for medical reasons when flying on airliners, because the cabin altitutle routinely reaches upwards of 7,000'. Carrying a portable oxygen rig on an airline flight isn't the slightest bit unusual or suspicious, and is a routine occurrence on commerical flights. It proves exactly NOTHING.
xPat
Wouldn't the jet fuel ignite immediately and vaporize the plane if it was a missle. Dont see how anyone would have time to put on a mask. When I ignite any form of gas the explosion is instantaneous. I would not even have time to think I am dying.
No, @hotrod, not at all true. Even the space shuttle Challenger astronauts were alive and conscious for most of their fall back to earth, and there's no reason to assume the entire aircraft would "vaporize" on missile impact.
The missile explosion is designed to compromise the aircraft structurally, possibly breaking up the fuselage. Pax seated well away from the wings (where most of the fuel is stored) and engines would likely survive the missile impact, but not the subsequent crash of the aircraft. It's likely that quite a few pax were alive for the fall back to earth, but most would lose consciousness very quickly at that altitude without supplemental oxygen. The notion that one or even a few pax managed to get a mask on before they fell to their death isn't the slightest bit difficult to believe in this situation.
xPat
Your authoritative assertions sound sound reasonable. But given that having a 4 year university scientific or engineering degree (BA or BS) is not required by the FAA for becoming a commercial airline pilot (although many airlines require them and many pilots do have relevant university degrees), what exactly are your technical and educational qualifications to so authoritatively discuss the structural effects of missile impact? Are you a degreed professional engineer? If not I would recommend you cite proper references authored by qualifed persons to make your argument rather than relying on "I know because of I'm a pilot" argument as you try to educate ZH'ers.
For the record the FAA reqirements for becoming a commercial airline pilot are detailed at this link:
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/recently_published/media/2120-aj67.pdf
By the way I have a B.S. in geology and an M.S. in geophysics and have worked for more than 30 years in the oil industry both in exploration and research, but I wouldn't presume to make an authoritative argument on the structural effects of missile impact without citing a proper reference by a qualified engineer or physicist, even though I can hold my own in physics and math.
He's pretty much on the dot. I could throw my credentials around, but it;s the internet, and anyone could say anything. But I will state I could be deemed an authoritative expert in this area. But why would you attack the poster's POTENTIAL that he does not have a college degree, and why does that even matter? I have friend with no college degree that ran an advanced physics lab and hold 26 patents, mostly related to radar. My father has no high school or college degree, but was board certified in psychiatry and emergency medicine and practiced medicine and even serving as a department chair at a respected medical university.
The only people I ever hired based on a degree were kids right out of college. After that, I could care less. What mattered was what they had done. And an airline pilot with say, 5,000 hours under his belt, even if he only had a GED, is way more credible to me than a PhD who sat in front of a white board and computer for 20 years when it comes to how aircraft behave in flight. And by the way, I hired lots of PhD's in my time, and many were idiots who could solve very complex math problems, but the problems they were solving had no real world relevance or use.
You do not have to have an advanced degree to know something.
Someone call Gimp McCain. He was shot down. He has real experience.
And he's a war hero and my hero too!
Interesting.
And the missile blast shockwave. In a narrow aluminum tube, as well.
Who'da thunk it?
They die later because their internal organs turn to goo. It's a common effect that's been seen by people who are in close proximity to large explosions. So some probably did live, but would have died later from the effects if they didn't hit the ground so damn hard.
"So some probably did live"
I don't doubt that some did live, but they were in a completely unconscious state.
Certainly in no condition to don an oxygen mask or bid and make a three no trump contract.
That's why conspiracy theorists are fuckng morons. I wouldn't presume to know what a human is capable of in that situation, but you with your many degrees in conspiracy bullshit know exactly what a man might be able to do in that situation. You're also fucking morons because you're willing to believe outrageous shit when it furthers your insane theories and yet won't be as open minded when something might contradict your beliefs.
Why don't you ask some people who are in close proximity to large explosions?
You have no trouble believing them that people caught in an explosion are capable of having their internal organs turn to goo.
Would that be the sticky goo or the slimy goo, in case it's a question on Jeopardy? (I'll take 'internal organs' for $300, Alex.)
ahh somebody is butthurt.
If it's you and I am responsible, I'm sorry. :o)
That's not what you said just down the page:
bid the soldier...
Vote up!
2Vote down!
0Exactly.
The cannon fire through the cockpit and forward part of the plane caused the oxygen masks to deploy. 10 seconds later the Ukrainian missile slammed into the plane and it fell to the earth.
For all we know many of the passengers had masks on which were torn off when the plane dove down 30,000 ft.
So which is it? Do you think they were unconscious or that they put their masks on? You appear to be confused.
For All We know.... Karen Carpenter said it best. Or sang it best
http://www.lyrics007.com/Carpenters%20Lyrics/For%20All%20We%20Know%20Lyr...
But I said it too.
Do they have the expression for all we know in the quaint village where you live? It means what follows is my opinion about something that no one -- tho occasionally as many as one or two people -- can possibly know anything about.
No one here has any idea what kind of projectile hit the airplane. Or if it pierced the cabin before it exploded. We've heard from a German pilot, who saw the wreckage and said that it was riddled by cannon fire.
For all we know this is part of the mouse trap Timmermans has set to establish who the guilty parties are.
After all 196 of his countrymen died in the crash.
Because the warhead is not an explosive. Please look up "Expanding Rod Warhead."
The plane is down. The passengers are dead. An angry EU & US have imposed sanctions on Russia.
Who had this type of warhead? The Rebels? The Ukrainian AF?
Have you told the Dutch Safety Board?
actually it doesn't. It only burns as a gas, and not a liquid. Have you ever seen anybody drop a match into a full container of gasoline and then rapidly close the lid, and it didn't burn? I've seen guys, brave guys, weld a fuel tank with fuel in it while using a air line to evacuate the fumes. You people live some sheltered lives.
bullshit
I've got more amazing feets than that. You ever seat a tire on a rim by filling it with starter fluid(ether) and igniting it? Honestly, I didn't do that since I'm not stupid, but I know people who are that stupid, and watched them do it.
"Wouldn't the jet fuel ignite immediately and vaporize the plane if it was a missle."
No, the missile warhead is not an explosive and does not kill with heat. It is called an "expanding rod" and is basically a metal net. The are no explosives or pryotechnics in the expanding rod. There is no reason at all that any fuel would be ignited, epscially is the rod did not hit any fuel tanks. In addition, if the tanks were hit and ignited from metal sparking, they would not necessarily "explode," but more likely simply catch fire and burn.
You make too much sense.
Oh look, a retired limo driver is lecturing us about the dangers of rhetoric whilst employing rhetoric. Methinks xPat doth protest too much.
I just miss the *old* ZeroHedge - the credible version. That's all.
xPat
Why does inviting conversation reduce the credibility of a webzone? We're all here on equal footing, you know. I think the Tylers are capturing the current panic-geist quite admirably.
...and xPat's gone. "Access Denied". http://www.zerohedge.com/users/xpat
"I just miss the *old* ZeroHedge - the credible version. That's all."
Bravo - and I as well. The looney tunes who have taken over this site are simply amazing. It was once a great site. Too bad.
Actually, what it proves is that the "official" report issued to the public was sloppy, incomplete, and designed to focus anger on Putin/the Russkies/those darned inconvenient separatists. Facts are stubborn things. Either the plane was destroyed by a ground based missle launch or it was shot down by an airplane. The Novorussians had no access to any kind of military fighter jets at the time of the incident. So the party line is a missle launched by Russian separatists. You'll forgive us, xPat, if we (and the Tylers) choose to take this with the same grain of salt that it would have been wise to take the same claims of weapons of mass destruction years ago.
OK. Please explain the dozens of round holes (entry & exit) in the fuselage of MH-17 around the cockpit area which were described by a German ex-pilot, now analyst, as 30mm cannon fire. He publihed hi-res photo-images of them. The Kiev air force have SU-25's fitted with 30mm cannon. The Russians published imagery showing such jets in the immediate vicinity of MH-17 immediately before it was shot down.
Exactly.
The cannon fire through the cockpit and forward part of the plane caused the oxygen masks to deploy. 10 seconds later the Ukrainian missile slammed into the plane and it fell to the earth.
For all we know many of the passengers had masks on which were torn off when the plane dove down 30,000 ft.
I'm surprised that even one victim was discovered still wearing a mask.
I'm not a License Airline Transport Pilot and I don't care if you are or not. That has no relevance in the matter of using common sense about something you apparently have never dealt with - investigating a jetliner shootdown. If you had been involved in such events in the past you would have mentioned that in your qualifications.
If shrapnel can pass through the skin and frame of the plane it certainly would pass through the skin and frame of "pax" continuing on to the next "pax" and so on and so forth until it actually meets enough resistance to make it stop. If the multitude of bodies did actually stop the shrapnel then we should have physical evidence from the missile itself. The shrapnel could be tested for metalic and chemical properties to determine what kind of metal and if there was any explosive residue on it. All of this would lead a forensic investigation to be able to conclude at least the nation of origin for the metal and/or explosives.
Let us not forget that missile parts tend to be stamped with part and serial numbers. Funny the report didn't mention anything about all of these things that would absolutely be there if the conclusion of the report were true. The lack of the evidence proves the report is false because any valid report would include this evidence as absolute proof.
I smell a pattern.
Again, sigh, there is NO sprapnel. The war head was an "expanding rod."
"Let us not forget that missile parts tend to be stamped with part and serial numbers. Funny the report didn't mention anything about all of these things that would absolutely be there if the conclusion of the report were true. The lack of the evidence proves the report is false because any valid report would include this evidence as absolute proof."
I am sorry, but are saying shrapnel would have serial numbers? That's stupid, sorry, but it is. And lack of evidence never proves anything. That too, is a supremely stupid statement. "I have no evidence the Moon is made of blue cheese, therefore, because there is no evidence, I can conclusively prove the moon is made of blue cheese!" Is that your argument?
photos alrready clearly show numerous bullet holes.
You STLL havent presented ANY real evidence of a missle. Same as the "Russian invasion of Ukrane" same as "weapons of mass distraction", same as "Assad gassed his own people", same as "babies taken out of uncubators" lies.
You ARe right, we DO smell a pattern. A pattern of lies streaching back over 25 years.
ZH is an awesome site - if you can't smell the fishiness about the downing of MH17 you obviously haven't looked hard enough at it.
And that's being polite.
Why are your account details blocked anyway xPat?
It's not depressing. It's like a trip to the zoo, but with conspiracy theory freaks of every type, instead of animals. Further down the page we got one talking about mind controlled flight instructor killing JFK Junior. That's even better than radiation cannons. It's funny as hell. You need to learn to stop and smell the roses.
Australian government sacrificing its own people to further Empire's agenda.
Meanwhile muslim women get attacked on the streets because of fabricated IS.
I still assert there was a bomb onboard that was popped once the cockpit was strafed by MiGs of unimportant origin.
This current junk is whitewash to cover the Ukrainian soldiers who attest the bodies were decomposed and possibly refrigerated prior to their aerial dumping. Showing an Aussie on the Aqualung simply helps promulgate the main story, that these passengers were alive at all. Have the Dutch sold us out?
"Ukrainian soldiers who attest the bodies were decomposed and possibly refrigerated prior to their aerial dumping."
So, they took all the people away from all their families and friends, killed them, say, a week before their flight, then, for some reason, froze them after some decomposition, then loaded a couple hundred dead and frozen bodies into an airplance at a gate at a busy airport, and no body fucking noticed?
Is that what you really think? And you are not actually insane?
Hasbara in the hay-ouse.
CIA/Mossad have a lot at stake here.
They're not interested in anyone figuring out who the bad guys are.
"This proves nothing...!" LOL
"A missile actually explodes at a distance, giving some guy time to put on a mask( while burning and tumbling at 400 kts)" LOL
So... where is the shrapnel from the missile. A large missile would embed a lot of chunks of itself in the plane. The lack of this obvious physical proof is damning.
Have you been on a passenger jet? I know they seem really, really solid, but they aren't. They're composed mostly of aluminum and some more exotic metals, and other composites that while strong are mostly strong for their weight. It's not hard to imagine that most of the shrapnel passed right through the fuselage. Most aircraft sheetmetal is pretty thin, even military aircraft aren't armored over every single inch of their surface area. That's why they have all those annoying signs on the surface area that say don't walk here and not a step.
P.S. We actually had a discussion about this once in one of my old units regarding the incendary rounds, and how horrible it would be to be shot with one, but then it donned on us that we probably aren't solid enough to even set one off.
that's what I'm saying dill-snip
The headline is ridiculous. The fact that one of the dead had time to get an oxygen mask on doesn't expose anything, expect that a chunk of the fuselage was intact for 20 seconds or so after the Russian missile hit it.
I see crude oil is down again today. I wonder if that is going to cut into Russian state funding for Zerohedge?
Love your chains much, cowboy?
Love the Hank!
Why is your profile "Access Denied?"
He is in Isolation as he has the Obola virus.
So Access Denied
His profile is back up.
ce le guerre... 298 of the lower stratums of society wiped out for nothing; but to people like Porshenko or Nuland well the they think the gamble was worth it.
"Timmermans issued a statement Thursday saying he regretted making the comment. We are confident that everyone else in the false-flag waving Western camp very much regretted Timmermans' comment as well."
Indeed.....MH17 didn't go just BOOM!
What can you expect from a country that invented Bilderberg?
Timmermans is gewoon een smerig liegbeest. Wat een enorme prutser! [Dutch]
If you are taken out by a BUK at that altitude you do Not get to don an oxygen mask.
Explosive decompression at that altitude, freezing and thin atmosphere, and extremely sudden air pressure drop.
The time it takes it realise what has happened, that something has happened, your brain in no-mans-land because of the sudden chaos and because of the sudden extreme change in physical circumestances....and the oxygen masks dropping down?? And you being able to grab one......(even see one? lights still working I wonder, at night....).
I mean the conditions for a human being under those circumstances renders them incapable of obtaining enough control and thought to take any action in the few seconds available...if that.
Highly unlikley anybody has any opportunity or capability to don an oxygen mask if they are taken out by a BUK.
TUC time 20 to 30 seconds...I can't even light a cigarette in that amount of time...
Then you're retarded.
I take it you presume I already have the cigarette in my mouth and the lighter in my hand?
Now you're the one sounding retarded. I don't have to fish the lighter out of my pocket, or the cigarettes for that matter? I don't have to open the pack and get one out? What if the side of the plane has suddenly been ripped wide open at 33,000 feet? Damn.
Especially when it's windy.
"TUC time 20 to 30 seconds...I can't even light a cigarette in that amount of time..."
Again, the aircraft was not going over 1,000 MPH. Please do your math.
I think you're confused over the definition of TUC. It's the altitude, not the speed.