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Ron Paul Warns, Reckless Congress Just 'Declared War' On Russia
Authored by Ron Paul via The Ron Paul Institute of Peace & Prosperity,
Yesterday the US House passed what I consider to be one of the worst pieces of legislation ever. H. Res. 758 was billed as a resolution “strongly condemning the actions of the Russian Federation, under President Vladimir Putin, which has carried out a policy of aggression against neighboring countries aimed at political and economic domination.”
In fact, the bill was 16 pages of war propaganda that should have made even neocons blush, if they were capable of such a thing.
These are the kinds of resolutions I have always watched closely in Congress, as what are billed as “harmless” statements of opinion often lead to sanctions and war. I remember in 1998 arguing strongly against the Iraq Liberation Act because, as I said at the time, I knew it would lead to war. I did not oppose the Act because I was an admirer of Saddam Hussein – just as now I am not an admirer of Putin or any foreign political leader – but rather because I knew then that another war against Iraq would not solve the problems and would probably make things worse. We all know what happened next.
That is why I can hardly believe they are getting away with it again, and this time with even higher stakes: provoking a war with Russia that could result in total destruction!
If anyone thinks I am exaggerating about how bad this resolution really is, let me just offer a few examples from the legislation itself:
The resolution (paragraph 3) accuses Russia of an invasion of Ukraine and condemns Russia’s violation of Ukrainian sovereignty. The statement is offered without any proof of such a thing. Surely with our sophisticated satellites that can read a license plate from space we should have video and pictures of this Russian invasion. None have been offered. As to Russia’s violation of Ukrainian sovereignty, why isn’t it a violation of Ukraine’s sovereignty for the US to participate in the overthrow of that country’s elected government as it did in February? We have all heard the tapes of State Department officials plotting with the US Ambassador in Ukraine to overthrow the government. We heard US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland bragging that the US spent $5 billion on regime change in Ukraine. Why is that OK?
The resolution (paragraph 11) accuses the people in east Ukraine of holding “fraudulent and illegal elections” in November. Why is it that every time elections do not produce the results desired by the US government they are called “illegal” and “fraudulent”? Aren’t the people of eastern Ukraine allowed self-determination? Isn’t that a basic human right?
The resolution (paragraph 13) demands a withdrawal of Russia forces from Ukraine even though the US government has provided no evidence the Russian army was ever in Ukraine. This paragraph also urges the government in Kiev to resume military operations against the eastern regions seeking independence.
The resolution (paragraph 14) states with certainty that the Malaysia Airlines flight 17 that crashed in Ukraine was brought down by a missile “fired by Russian-backed separatist forces in eastern Ukraine.” This is simply incorrect, as the final report on the investigation of this tragedy will not even be released until next year and the preliminary report did not state that a missile brought down the plane. Neither did the preliminary report – conducted with the participation of all countries involved – assign blame to any side.
Paragraph 16 of the resolution condemns Russia for selling arms to the Assad government in Syria. It does not mention, of course, that those weapons are going to fight ISIS – which we claim is the enemy -- while the US weapons supplied to the rebels in Syria have actually found their way into the hands of ISIS!
Paragraph 17 of the resolution condemns Russia for what the US claims are economic sanctions (“coercive economic measures”) against Ukraine. This even though the US has repeatedly hit Russia with economic sanctions and is considering even more!
The resolution (paragraph 22) states that Russia invaded the Republic of Georgia in 2008. This is simply untrue. Even the European Union – no friend of Russia – concluded in its investigation of the events in 2008 that it was Georgia that “started an unjustified war” against Russia not the other way around! How does Congress get away with such blatant falsehoods? Do Members not even bother to read these resolutions before voting?
In paragraph 34 the resolution begins to even become comical, condemning the Russians for what it claims are attacks on computer networks of the United States and “illicitly acquiring information” about the US government. In the aftermath of the Snowden revelations about the level of US spying on the rest of the world, how can the US claim the moral authority to condemn such actions in others?
Chillingly, the resolution singles out Russian state-funded media outlets for attack, claiming that they “distort public opinion.” The US government, of course, spends billions of dollars worldwide to finance and sponsor media outlets including Voice of America and RFE/RL, as well as to subsidize “independent” media in countless counties overseas. How long before alternative information sources like RT are banned in the United States? This legislation brings us closer to that unhappy day when the government decides the kind of programming we can and cannot consume – and calls such a violation “freedom.”
The resolution gives the green light (paragraph 45) to Ukrainian President Poroshenko to re-start his military assault on the independence-seeking eastern provinces, urging the “disarming of separatist and paramilitary forces in eastern Ukraine.” Such a move will mean many more thousands of dead civilians.
To that end, the resolution directly involves the US government in the conflict by calling on the US president to “provide the government of Ukraine with lethal and non-lethal defense articles, services, and training required to effectively defend its territory and sovereignty.” This means US weapons in the hands of US-trained military forces engaged in a hot war on the border with Russia. Does that sound at all like a good idea?
There are too many more ridiculous and horrific statements in this legislation to completely discuss. Probably the single most troubling part of this resolution, however, is the statement that “military intervention” by the Russian Federation in Ukraine “poses a threat to international peace and security.” Such terminology is not an accident: this phrase is the poison pill planted in this legislation from which future, more aggressive resolutions will follow. After all, if we accept that Russia is posing a “threat” to international peace how can such a thing be ignored? These are the slippery slopes that lead to war.
This dangerous legislation passed today, December 4, with only ten (!) votes against! Only ten legislators are concerned over the use of blatant propaganda and falsehoods to push such reckless saber-rattling toward Russia.
Here are the Members who voted “NO” on this legislation. If you do not see your own Representative on this list call and ask why they are voting to bring us closer to war with Russia! If you do see your Representative on the below list, call and thank him or her for standing up to the warmongers.
Voting “NO” on H. Res. 758:
1) Justin Amash (R-MI)
2) John Duncan (R-TN)
3) Alan Grayson, (D-FL)
4) Alcee Hastings (D-FL)
5) Walter Jones (R-NC)
6) Thomas Massie (R-KY)
7) Jim McDermott (D-WA)
8 George Miller (D-CA)
9) Beto O’Rourke (D-TX)
10 Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA)
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impressive speech
impressive hall
I hope they can delay what seems to be inevitable
not lookn foreward to economic or physical war
Not only did American politicians stand idly by while a banker-centered force enlisted NATO, the European Central Bank, the American State Department and the CIA in a despicable assault across Ukraine to threaten Russia, but now the U.S. Congress has in a despicable way tried to make this warmongering official.
It has been one thing for America to fight undeclared wars on sovereign people throughout the world in recent years. It is quite another for the representatives of the American people, the Congress, to justify it.
Has the House of Representatives become nothing more than a rubber stamp for the foreign policy of Israel? Have these congressmen no loyalty to the United States; instead, choosing the support for re-election they get from AIPAC, the ADL and AJC and cowering under the threat posed by the Zionists to their lucrative offices at the Capitol?
Have they no shame to face their constituents and pretend their loyalty to the United States while supporting the slaughter throughout the world of the enemies of, not the U.S., but of Israel?
If the Congress refuses to support America and American citizens and a just world peace then they don’t deserve to hold office and this government does not deserve tax support. Revolution approaches.
Considering how Ron Paul's track record for making political predictions has been close to 100% correct, this article must be taken SERIOUSLY!
Yea
We are fucked.
Yea
We are fucked.
You can say that again...
I respect prescient predictions and predictors... but no amount of voting and no amount of oathkeepers or oil-soaked spy-riddled Tea Partiers are going to significantly change anything.
They already have changed something.
we warned some Russian folks.
War is job security for a volunteer army. The bullshit will continue until most soldiers are draftees. That or we start a war with another nuclear power.....
Being 28, one thing i worry about is that they'll reinstate the draft for WWIII, then keep lifting the maximum age until I'm fighting along side every other American male.
Ukraine raised the level to 60
They did that in WW2, draft expanded to register all men 18-65, and all immediately eligible ages 18-45, and if you forged docs to appear older they did not care.
Why do people use the word volunteer in place of professional?
The neonazis running The State Department that are destroying the Ukraine by the day and sanctioning Russia really hate stuff like this.It is because there are actually trade deals taking place outside of the U.S. dollar system and they are friendly to everyone (except morons like Victoria Nuland).Every American has been fed the propaganda that Iran is somehow the ultimate evil.Well guess what,nobody has to get their food from the U.S.,it's a growing Central Asian Trade Agreement just getting started.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/slideshows/nation-world/turkmen-kaza...
lil scamBO's regime insanity or
Caligula burns rome in epic style! Nothing but a bunch of lunatics in CONgress, SINate, and lil scamBO regime. I remember independence day "the movie" with will smith. Actor bill pullman, playing the president, asks the freaky alien smith dragged in from the desert,"what it wants us humans to do?" DIE!!!!!! Same answer from our corrupted neoCONzi government to citizens today! DIE!Dr.Paul has been spot on about the Fed FOR THREE DECADES!!
The way he keeps getting re-elected in his district,one would have to conclude his entire constituency are morons,OR MAYBE THOSE TEXANS LIKE A STRAIGHT-SHOOTER AND WANT SOMEONE OTHER THOSE SCUMBAGS IN DC.His son is a different story....
Yes, they broke the mold when Paul left congress. An unfortunate plight for mankind. Practice getting under your desk.
Ron Paul is a politician don't forget that so by definition he is a fraud....controlled puppet like they all are
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/08/27/former-iowa-state-senator-pleads-guilty-in-ron-paul-endorsement-for-pay-scheme/
So I take that as a yes for war with Russia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9JCququYE0
There is one big difference, unlike all the 'lawyer' pols out there, he is a doctor and I don't remember how many babies he delivered, but quite a few. He is dedicated to life, not war.
And he is right.
just like Rand Paul
Someone mentioned Native Americans. How does this sound? Rename the New York Giants the New York Palefaces. Rename the New Orleans Saints the New Orleans Choirboys. Rename the Tampa Bay Buccaneers the Tampa Bay Crackers. Etc. :-)
Try--
New York Cop Fodder
New Orleans Houston Hotel Residents
Tampa Bay Bug Eaters
and how about the
Washington Drunken Aboriginal Losers
Neoconservative = Neoliberal = Neonazi.
the global nazi time is upon us. watch for their
words, methods, memes and practices. the smell of
it. the direction and goal, agenda and perspective,
all of it right in your face?
I emailed to my friends and relatives about the impending nuclear war with Russia. Now, I can retire to my couch next to a fireplace with a glass of red Lebanese wine. As my black girlfriend says, we can't do nothing about our insane government starting the war with Russia, but we can at least enjoy ourselves.
Cheers..
hey vlad! for the umth time, keep tweakin' them nuke algos. TPTB are comin' for ya., and you better resolve to let loose if need be. better to take it all down than live a west vassal.
This is the problem right here,
That dam Russia shouldn't be moving their military around inside russia!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LexhW8SCM2c
The problem is the US leaders all think like this!
American citizen take your country back from these fools before they get us all killed!
Russia was stupid enough to locate their country so as to be surrounded by US/NATO bases. and the Ukraine. They have only themselves to blame
LMAO - Russia didn't move it was surrounded.
"Three Prizes of Ukraine" Nikolay Starikov
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrki2zYJ-5Q
So should America bend over and take it in the a$$ from Comrade Putin? With Ron Paul's foreign policy vision, we'd have surrendered to the USSR in the 50's and be standing in line for toilet paper and vodka.
If Rand wants to run for president, he ought to lock his dad in the basement, cut the phone line, and set the internet for download only.
Junk away.
you got it a$$ backwards . west askin' vlad to bend over and take it up the a$$.
when your IQ gets above 25 and you get your GED, THEN come post here at ZH-otherwise you are just playing laughingstock moran (sic) of the site
Sticks and stones.
And precisely what is it that 'Comrade Putin' is doing to America that generates such juvenile language on your part? Has he attacked America? Has he even threatened to attack America? Has he imposed economic sanctions on America? Has he said nasty things against America? Please, just what is it that he has done to warrant your statement?
I would suggest - nothing at all. And in fact America has been pushing at Putin for a military response in Ukraine by imposing economic sanctions, threatening other countries to co-operate or else, encouraging NATO to build up its forces in Eastern Europe, and carrying out a coup against a legally elected government in Ukraine and filling that governments with neo-Nazi Russian haters.
Indeed, I would also suggest that 'Comrade Putin' has reacted to all this in a very gentlemanly manner - continually seeking dialogue instead of threeats, seeking to work things out through UN channels, and patiently waiting (in vain, I might add) for a civilised response from Western governments, a response that so far has failed to materialise primarily due to American pressure.
Your kind always without fail end up in war and everyone else has to pay for your stupidity.
Quant Nuc
Maybe trying to be a friend to Russia, after the collapse of the USSR, might have been in order; instead of constantly giving them a slap upside the head.
And as far as standing in line for toilet paper and vodka- how far away are we from that right now?
Good to see the new crop of Weekend Okhrana dudes on the job. Your willingness to self-identify immediately upon entry is greatly appreciated. Saves us a lot of work. Muchas Gracias.
Ten NO votes, 5 D and 5 R. The non-partisan anti-imperialist Roll of Honor - a tradition that reaches back to Samuel Clemens, Henry David Thoreau and beyond. Mark their names well! These are the precious few we can trust.
I miss having Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich in the House, worlds apart on bread and butter issues, yet brothers in arms on opposing war and intervention and in opposing assaults on our constitutional liberties - patrolling the House floor each with a copy of the Constitution in his shirt pocket!
Twice, in 2004 and 2008, each was robbed of the Presidential nomination that fair and full media coverage and a level financial playing field would have given them. What a great race that would have been!
What the hell is the matter with these clowns in Washington, are they looking to stir up trouble and get people killed? The idea of America getting involved or jumping into a war in Ukraine would have been hard to imagine a few years ago. As I write this we are engaged in a war of words but the potential for this to escalate into a major "shooting war" is real.
Allowing events to deteriorate into a major war or possibly into what some see as World War III is becoming a reality. As insane as it appears this could become the final outcome. The location of this as a military confrontation is right in Putin's backyard and this is a strong advantage for Russia. It is silly to think Putin and Russia will back down. This means poking the bear is not a smart move. More on this subject in the article below.
http://brucewilds.blogspot.com/2014/04/war-in-ukraine-bad-idea_26.html
Insanity indeed:
(5) calls on the Russian Federation to reverse its il-legal annexation of Crimea, to end its support of the
separatist forces in Crimea, and to remove its military forces from that region other than those operating in
strict accordance with its 1997 agreement on the Status 11 and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet Stationing on the
Territory of Ukraine
Or else, what?
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry,
(25) calls for the reestablishment of a close and co-operative relationship between the people of the United
States and the Russian people based on the shared pur-suit of democracy, human rights, and peace among all
nations.
Did congress even read HRES 758 EH......
It's true, I read it on a blimp!
You yanks are screwed.
If you are in a country that is in NATO so are you.
For evil must come, but woe to the man by whom the evil comes.
The wages of sin is death.
Let's raise the minimum wage!
I love you, man.
"The wages of sin is death."
Payment comes due for all life. Death.
Regards
K
We clearly have unwise leaders these days! Our own lives are on the line for their insanity, hubris and foolishness. Reminiscent of Hitler's egomania.
Most European nations have State-funded Media - just what are BBC, ARD, ZDF, Australia Broadcasting Corp, NHK, Belgian TV, Poland, Spain etc
The US is psychotic. It simply has noone willing to stand out against the mob and is like the Social Democrats voting war credits in 1914. War is inevitable and there are Americans walking around today already marked to die in nuclear strikes as their neighbourhoods become forever known much as Hiroshima or Dresden or Tokyo are known for massive military destruction
This insanity only makes sense when you understand that the Rothchild Zionists control the Federal Reserve, the U.S. government, both political parties, the C.I.A., the D.O.D., and on and on. They are out to break and destroy Russia and steal its resources. Plain and simple. And they don't give a damn what you and I think about it. They have already declared economic war against Russia and it's working to a certain extent - oil prices and sanctions - people are suffering (but who gives a shit about that). They will keep manufacturing phony "incidents" supposedly instigated by Russia until they get the right one. And then they will clamor for war and "boots on the ground."
Maybe that's where the trouble will begin. Who is going to be dumb enough to join that idiotic fight - a fight to protect the greedy Rothchild NWO Zionist monsters?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq0_n7ZBX_c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roR3sSunqpo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqF-2C1JTyo
--
" ... The resolution (paragraph 11) accuses the people in east Ukraine of holding “fraudulent and illegal elections” in November. Why is it that every time elections do not produce the results desired by the US government they are called “illegal” and “fraudulent”? Aren’t the people of eastern Ukraine allowed self-determination? Isn’t that a basic human right? ..."
--
WRONG
You should actually read, for the first time, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948, as when you do it's made very clear that the "Universal Human Rights" were laid out in it to define the precise civil relationship between all states, and all state citizens of those states.
Why was this continually emphasized within that document? It's because in 1948, three years after WWII had just ended, it was vividly fresh in everyone's mind that the relations between nations internationally and between nations and their citizens and authorities domestically, needed to be moderated by an internationally agreed set of Universal Principles (not just the Rights), which aimed to prevent states attacking and harming their citizens, and for individual authorities to actually treat citizens as they too would be treated, and hold them accountable, legally, and universally, if they didn't.
And if they did, then there would be little or no tendency for citizens to rebel against their authorities, which results in the radicalization leading to the civil and international warfare - of preventing WWII from recurring with even more destructive weapons.
A citizen that's being treated within those agreed civil relations, in fact has a legal responsibility to live peacefully, and to not radicalize or militate to overthrow, by force, a state, its territory and its civil authorities, if they are complying with that Human Rights Standard.
That universal international legal standard was as much a protection for the State, and its current government administration, as it was for the protection of that State's people. Both are protected under the international Human Rights conventions and principles.
It ain't perfect, and nothing ever is, and the radical versions of personal 'liberty' and 'freedom', and idealized political or civil structural 'perfection', with many mouthed platitudes, actually don't exist, and won't. That's fantasy, borne out of irresponsibility, immaturity and resulting ideological radicalization.
But there it is, the lessons of WWII were distilled within the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948, precisely so that the bitter causes and lessons of WWII would never be triggered and repeated again. Or at least the intent was to make them very much less likely to occur. That level of war can never be completely eliminated but it can and has been drastically reduced and minimized ... so far.
No, the pro Moscow rebels do not have any integral and innate human right to carve off Eastern Ukraine, for Moscow, and to destabilize the civil authorities, administration, finances, economy , laws, infrastructure and undermine territory needed for peace and sufficiency, and the personal and family security and rights by and for all the other citizens of Ukraine.
No, they have zero human right to rebel, in that regard, if the Kiev Administration is prepared to uphold all of the legal principles and State responsibilities of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948.
At that point the obligation is on the rebels to make a real peace and to entirely submit to the State Authorities of Ukraine within all the territory of Ukraine. A rebel government or State has no validity or recognition in the UN, for that very reason.
This is why fledgling states, like Palatine, for instance, want formal UN recognition, and why States like Israel will do anything or manufacture any circumstance or excuse of series of outright lies to try and prevent that equality of human rights, within a new and separate state, that actually upholds the human rights of their people, when a country like Israel mouths and infinity of platitudes but never does. This is the process for that separation, and it is mediated via the UN, not via Moscow's mercs, spec-ops and a flood of heavy weapons.
The Declaration of Human Rights 1948 does not excuse the pro-Moscow rebels for doing any of what they are currently doing, and they do not have any innate Human Right to be doing any of it. But under the Declaration of Human Rights, 1948, Ukraine actually DOES have the right and also the domestic and international responsibility to defend itself and the peace of the world, and all of its people, from separatists, backed by an aggressive territory-assuming expansionist foreign power.
If they rebel, against a state, and simply commence a war against that state, and the state has basically been keeping to it's side in the Universal Human Rights bargain, made in 1948, the rebels are then criminals and able to be prosecuted, and if they resist with military means, backed and armed by a foreign military, then the UN recognized State not only can, but in defense of the interests of the people that state represents, it MUST put down those rebels and punish any and all crimes against humanity that have occurred during all of their illegal activities.
And that State, in conjunction with all other states, will gather evidence against such people that sees them hanging at the end of a rope. Yes, this is the conceptual theory, and the practice of it is flawed and not so pretty or morally clear, or necessarily sufficiently just.
But I strongly suggest all of you ignorant warmongering idiots who think you have some 'Human Right' to take radical militant actions against the territory of a legal Sovereign UN recognized State and its authorities, have a very careful read through the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948, because it is EQUALLY concerned with the responsibilities and actions of all people, and also all states, as it is about Universal Human Rights of such persons, because it was recognized by all experience mature alert and intelligent people, in 1948, that these two are one thing, they are in fact inseparable, if peace and better living it to dominate over cruelty, war and deprivation.
You do not get one with out the other and where one is missing, and the other is insisted, then civil instability and war are the result.
At which point it then becomes THE RESPONSIBILITY OF ALL OTHER HUMAN BEINGS, in the form of the collective action of their respective states, to ensure that Universal Rights and Responsibilities of all Human Beings, and the rapid cessation of all combat hostilities is achieved using, up to and including, all of the internationally regulated tools and weapons of war to re-establish the peace, the State and civil rights and associated LEGAL RESPONSIBILITIES and that civil and family needs and security are being met in all cases, to the best of the ability of ALL OTHER HUMANS, to ensure that this occurs as soon as possible.
That's why the UN itself was founded under such principles in the wash-up of the blood bath called WWII.
And that's precisely why a war was waged against an attacking North Korea, that was backed by China and the Soviet Union on the 25th of June 1950. That was a UN lead international force of States sent on a on combat mission to restore peace and end the attack within South Korea.
That has been repeated several times, since then, under UN conventions. And unfortunately it's been severely abused and undermined by the United States in a most counterproductive and damaging way. Nevertheless, that's the process that exists, and it can be used at any time against any state that via actions and behavior reveals itself as a threat to state territorial sovereignty in combat at a level consistent with triggering a WWIII type combat situation.
That's what is occurring today, and I don't care one bit what the commentariate within zh has to say about that, or your sordid personal take on who is at fault, or to blame, or who is right or wrong. It's all an absurd flotsam on a sea of wretched pitiful lies and hatreds. This is what is actually taking place in the bigger picture which does and will affect all States and all Human Beings and their families futures, and the entire "international crisis" architecture, which was developed for exactly this sort of development, if it recurred in such a blatant way, once again.
The UN was envisions to be a global big stick that would allow all nations of the world to act in concert as like-minded allied powers that could face-down and bring to heal literally any large power that threatens global peace. And if necessary, militarily defeat or eliminate that state, and re-establish the Human rights and responsibilities and meet the physical, health and security needs of all of its citizens, in the shortest time possible.
That's why this global system exists. WWII meant we couldn't not have such a system, and survive , as civilization would end quickly, and soon, without that sort of agreed arrangement in place to deal with states and leaders and militaries who made all these same mistakes again.
The whole idea of these Universal Rights and codifying them was to prevent WWIII from ever getting going in such a circumstance. So using Human Rights as another vicious wedge, a ludicrous 'justification' for a civil war, under the direction and behest of an aggressive territorially expansionist power, is precisely what the Declaration of human rights 1948 was constructed and codified to prevent, and to allow an orderly intervention to defang any such state, before the horrors of a global WWIII were properly unleashed through spiral escalating combat actions.
So right now is in fact that very time and the very circumstance in which the Declaration of Human Rights, 1948, was intended to come into its own and to be the most relevant, and the foremost international tool to put an end to such a outlaw power and State.
Ultra-nationalism was in very large part what triggered and powered the ideologies of WWII, and what we see in Russia today is the same openly-promoted aggressive militaristic territory taking self-justifying ultra-nationalism within a major power.
I don't care what avid loopy excuses you've concocted to make ridiculous contrived apologetics for this, that's what is occurring in the global picture, the it's one that the rest of Humanity, in the form of collective States, does and will care about, enough to act to guard against that and the observed actions, excuses and attitudes.
National policy and legislation dealing with this issue should and indeed will be made with direct regard to that structure and its intent for the modes of response outlined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948 and the UN convention for dealing with this.
That is how this is going to go down, so there is not point, "... kicking against the pricks ...", to use an apt Biblical metaphor, as you let fly with a load of completely useless ideological excuse making crap.
This is still how it is going to go down.
As that's how the people who ended WWII intended us to act, to defuse this sort of situation, and to prevent Pandora's Box from swinging open. They knew that we were going to face this again one day, and they did their best to distil the practical tools and structures, in advance in 1948, needed to put an end to this slide into global combat and global heavy bombardment of all cities.
Someone who thinks of Human Rights, as a mere concept of 'My Rights', and uses this as an excuse for murdering thousands of other people, via foreign power backed proxy separatist wars, is the product and canard of a willfully sick individual, that's nefariously seeking every excuse possible to fester warfare and the destruction of Human Rights and Human shared responsibilities for obtaining those shared universal rights.
What Russia is doing to Ukraine is going to see Russia's State turned into another isolated version of North Korea, if Vladimir Putin does not stop attacking the Sovereign territory of Ukraine with separatist fifth column pro-Moscow forces and fanning the flames of territorial conquest.
And countries all over the world so realize that if they don't actually want a re-run of WWII combat with all sorts of new nasty long range autonomous weapons, then they're going to have to get off their self-satisfied butts and accept cost and danger of send a painful and direct unified human message to Vladimir Putin's Moscow ultra-nationalists that they're behavior is unacceptable and that they must change now or else they will be shut off from all trade, and if necessary, interdicted.
Which means China, and India, and Brazil, and Japan, and Chile, and Saudi Arabia and Iran, etc., etc., must meet and convey this direct painful message to the Russian administration, or they also will share in the consequences of shirking their international responsibility to put an end to this behavior.
At which point galvanized global action can also work to eliminate other destabilizing serious threats to world peace, and local peace.
Clearly the US has such an atrocious record it does not have the moral authority required to lead in the way it should be able to, and that alone can bring the whole thing to naught, and Putin is relying on that being the case, and it is why he doesn't stop, and why he keeps laughably and incredulously claiming he never even started.
Fools at zero hedge might accept that sort of idiocy and front, but the major power states will not, for they do have Satellites and ELINT and operatives and analysts and see plainly what game Putin has been playing. So it is necessary for other countries to step up and uphold the values and principles and structures that will assure peace trumps the forces of the venal, the debauched and the short-sighted.
An that may in fact be China if other states leadership has been undermined by their own acts and hypocrisies.
So there is an opportunity here and it will be taken up, and also a great danger, that simply can not be ignored.
Then we can in fact make this process work, not just in one instance, but in all instances, and that includes moderating and containing flagrant US aggression under further false pretenses, and its associated war industry economic and financial pretense as well (i.e. to put an end to economic structural addiction to fomenting combat pretexts and dominating all domestic national discussion with such unrelenting claptrap).
This is what the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948 was always intended to do, so read it now, and consider the reasons why the entire globe willingly developed and adopted it, and agreed to always uphold it, and considered it the required way forward, so that a general world total war would never again take place.
They did this for NOW.
They created that structure of rights and responsibilities because they knew that if it failed then human civilization would not and could not survive for more than a few years.
So read the damned thing, your life does and always has relied on it, and quit using the insanity of citing Human Rights as an excuse to undermine the global peace, and for rebels to rebel and attack and separate from Sovereign States, and carve off territory at the behest of a foreign power supplying harbor and weapons of conquest and depravity.
That's the recipe of war itself! It is the total elimination and absence of all Human Rights, which we are currently seeing develop in many places. That is in fact the predicable result of criminal arseholes and fool citing a Human Rights to remove all Human Rights, that is the very nature and process of war, that is exactly what inevitably develops.
And it is 100% foreseeable, and the people doing it know this, the try to deflect with excuses but they know it, so they're not in any way innocent, they are active participants in a crime against humanity. It's people promoting such warfare via every excuse they can fabricate or concoct, no matter how illogical and self-defeating and self-destroying, who're committing the actual "Crimes Against Humanity"
Which was (and still is) a hang-able offense, at the end of WWII, as that is the very nature and seriousness of their criminality, of removing all Human Rights, via the undermining of peace to obtain material gain via mass-murder which is commonly passed off as 'war', for some contrived convenient 'cause', which is of course totally unnecessary, and virtually always without any merit or higher principle at all.
A thing is what it DOES.
You are what you DO.
So read:
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948
Http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/
This is the standard what you DO will be judged, via the rest of humanity, in the form of their respective State Administrations. Whatever extremist views or political philosophy or idealism you've bought into in recent years, if you break that standard, fight against the Peace and Rights of Humanity, and commit such crimes against human civilization the collective will of the States will indeed hang you, at the end of it.
No matter how you feel about that, or what fantasy would you hunger for, that's how this is going to play out, if it turns into a global 'universal' conflict.
So consider very carefully where you stand on all of this, because these States will collectively gather evidence on all such offenders. If you think you can use words or bizarre ideological or 'historical' excuses to escape these states, you're going to find yourself at the end of a rope, while the majority of humanity watches you gag and give little spasmodic twitches and grunts.
The UN is no more than a mere puppet and any legislation it purports to uphold is worthless because of this point.
No shit don't care about the Ukraine, Syria, Iraq and goes back to as a little boy and the UN in conjunction with the Red Cross and the World Health Organisation under USA guidance were not permitted to enter Cambodia to give aid. Since that day the UN in my mind became a worthless pack of lies.
Only Oxfam went in, humanitarian aid denied from elsewhere and hidden from prying eyes the killing fields can occur. I was a little boy paying pennies to Oxfam at this time by the inaction of the UN under the instructions of the USA. There is your freedom, freedom to allow mass killings to occur.
At the moment the UN mannakin is being controlled to bring in regime changes alone.
Your currency must behave as the petro-dollar, pound, euro, yen etc. demand to keep the game going and the control of oil to try and feed the lower cost into economies to allow consumption to be maintained of a FAILED GLOBAL ECONOMIC MONETARY SYSTEM. As the system collapses further expect more and more regime changes just to keep it all going.
I wonder if there is a radical Japanese leader out there who is prepared to say fuck this debt we ain't playing no more at that point whoever the nation is if not Japan WW3 becomes likely by those who want to enforce the debt and all their worth under a UN / IMF directive likely. You can't have one economy not being part of the GLOBAL QE RAPE TAIN and all leaders must be acceptable to those in high places.
That is the game being played and nothing to do with human rights. This year alone the level of money creation globally in so many nations of a supposedly healthy economic system is laughable.
Now if you nations dont want to play ball, the worlds reserve currency will be used as a WMD against anybody and makes a mockery of human rights. BEING GASSED OR HIT WITH A DRONE IS THE SAME AS BEING DENIED AN INCOME THROUGH ECONOMIC MANIPULATION STARVED OR FROZEN TO DEATH ... YOU ARE DEAD.
A WMD because it is what a FIAT currency becomes when you get to create all the worthless paper you want.
The US bombed Cambodia for years and killed millions of innocent people and littered the country with millions of tonnes of unexploded ordinance, including millions of airdropped mines that to this day are still regularly killing people. But you can't get your head around why they wouldn't let Americans into Cambodia?
It's because if you vicious mass murdering cunts, had gone in there, the locals would have sliced you up and fed every last one of you to the village dogs and swine.
This has everything to do with human rights, and the resulting and on-going complete lack of credibility that the US still enjoys in Indo-China, from such cruel barbaric hypocritical acts which were every bit the equal to what ISIS is doing today, btw. Which then engenders hate in successive generations.
I guarantee you that after that if Cambodia had obtained access to hydrogen bombs the US would not exist today, as payback for the outrageous scale unpunished crimes against humanity performed by the US Government and its military forces from 1963 to 1975.
Pol Pot came to power as a direct outcome the massive US air attacks and the obliteration of countless peaceful civilian towns and villages, with zero mercy or cause.
--
"U.S. Secret Bombing of Cambodia
On March 18, 1969, the United States began a four year long carpet-bombing campaign in the skies of Cambodia, devastating the countryside and causing socio-political upheaval that eventually led to the installation of the Pol Pot regime. ... // ... Estimates vary widely on the number of civilian casualites inflicted by the campaign; however, as many as 500,000 people died as a direct result of the bombings while perhaps hundreds of thousands more died from the effects of displacement, disease or starvation during this period. The Khmer Rouge, previously a marginalized guerrilla group, propagandized the bombing campaign to great effect; by the CIA's own intelligence estimates, the US bombing campaign was a key factor in the increase in popular support for the Khmer Rouge rebels. ..." http://rabble.ca/toolkit/on-this-day/us-secret-bombing-cambodia
--
And you pretend to be a good guy.
First, get a damned clue, you shameless gibbering ignoramus.
History is a lovely guide, but it holds no place to the brazen new frontier of globalism that is being foisted on us all by evil men who intend to balkanize Russia for their resources. This will lead to war. if you cannot see what is unfolding, then I obviously misjudged your intellect upon geopolitics. it is well presented what has led us to this point. This isn't about human rights, this is about a small cadre of evil exacting control over the entire world.
"... This isn't about human rights, this is about a small cadre of evil exacting control over the entire world."
--
One the contrary, that is precisely why it is about Human Rights, or rather the entire mechanism that was created, which includes Human Rights, look at what I wrote, I emphasized the typically ignored mechanism and legal responsibility in the event they engage in such acts (which they are).
As for Balkanizing Russia, open your eyes, Russia is carving off territory after territory as it continues to Balkanize the Black sea region, and not as a bloody theoretical conspiracy proposition, but he's actually done that - already!
So yes, damned right, the blow back is ... in the pipeline.
Moscow uses this sort of language and BS about the evil foreign powers stalking poor innocent Russia, to whip-up ultra-nationalist fervor and support, and it works fantastically! Look at his popularity!
Ever heard of 'populism'? Is this sort of thing ringing any bells yet?
Read Hitler's 1923 text and his assorted prognostications on propaganda and nationalist fervor, and control of the masses via lies, fear, militarism and promises of a final victory, because its abundantly clear that Vladimir Putin has, not that the Kremlin needs lessons on how to how to jerk that chain.
What's more surprising, and actually dismally disappointing, is that the supposedly aware component of the internet, which the zh commentariate unfoundedly imagines itself to be (something which was once actually undoubtedly true) are with a few exceptions, completely taken in by Putin's puerile posturing and laughable assertions, even when his actions are right there for all to see!
That is called partisan BIAS and such bias is the diametric opposite of smart, informed clear or even remotely honest analysis.
You don't have to approve, and I don't ever want your approval, and I would never write things like this if I wanted approval, or wanted to protect something as pointless as a past bloody reputation, from what I really assess and think, would I?
I'm not a populist you see.
It is just the contrast that you would do well to at least hear, for too much partisan confirmation bias, from threads strangely full of doughy-minded feckless fucking sheep, is not good for you and nor is it good for the cred nor longevity of zero hedge.
So let me reiterate; That is how it is going to go down.
Just where is Russia carving off territory after territory?
that implies many...more than two, three
But you did not name..
Let's see your list.......
Where is "balkanized"?
You are talking BS
and know nothing about Afghanistan
Was Soviet, not Russia
Soviet was support moderate government, build infrastruct and schools. Girls attended school, had rights
education...later after american interferences many were killed by own fathers for wanting school..
Moderate President was murdered, after that the Soviets intervened.
Afghan moderates supported Soviet.
Example: this well educated Aghan...notice he tells who killed his Father
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc2KeSkl5H0
your post is ignorant of real Afghan
.
Amazing how many here believe the 'history' told about that conflict, while questioning
the other ones.They forget, or don't know, about the CIA coup that caused it.
Same scenario as the Ukraine one, and the Soviets reacted exactly as the CIA wanted them to,
while Putin is making a point of not falling into that paticular trap.
Instead the US is in debt to its eyeballs, and quagmired in the Graveyard of Empires.
Abkhazia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia
South Ossetia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991%E2%80%931992_South_Ossetia_War
Crimea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea
East Ukraine Donestsk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People%27s_Republic
So Moscow had nothing to do with it? No Russians involved? These 'Soviets', where are they now? Did they wander off with Alice and a white rabbit to Wonderland, perhaps?
The 'Soviet' was the political entity, i.e. NOT a country, of the extended Russian Communist Empire that has its Capital in Moscow, and its political seat was the Kremlin, which Vladimir Putin occupies today.
US weapons and training, channeled through Pakistan, and used by Afghans, slaughtered Russian forces for over a decade and RUSSIAN commanded military forces, sent by the KREMLIN, in MOSCOW, were forced to retreat in defeat, then the Soviet Russian Empire virtually immediately collapsed, to the complete astonishment of basically the entire planet.
... wot? ... they were here just a minute ago ... where'd they go? ...
</crickets>
The mode of Russian intervention, in Dec 1979 coup, makes not once scrap of difference. The Russian State was whipped and was demolished, it did not win mastery in battle, it lost badly, and the Soviet communist Russian controlled State empire imploded. Russia had its arse handed to it. Young Vladimir Putin was in the Russian, sorry, the 'Soviet' State Intelligence.
After the ignominious catastrophic demoralizing total collapse of the Russian state they changed its letterhead and Vladimir Putin eventually got a series of better offices and a succession of bigger desks. While the Russian navy and air force could not even leave port, or take to the air, for most of the next ten years.
Yes, Russia, not only bent an gave way to external pressure, it in fact completely collapsed, in a completely unexpected and stunningly spectacular way. So when Vladimir talks crap about Russia never bending to the will of foreign powers, he is 100% full of shit for the modern history of just the past two decades reveals that to be a delusional mega-fantasy, plus a rewrite of modern Russian history too.
You'd think the Russian people could work that one out. Well, of course they can, and have, they just best not say it out loud.
Georgia : In 2008 that it was Georgia that “started an unjustified war” against Russia not the other way around! How does Congress get away with such blatant falsehoods? Do Members not even bother to read these resolutions before voting? They both attacked S.OSSETIA AND ABKHAZIA . I GUESS THOSE LIVING THERE DON'T HAVE ANY RIGHT TO LIVE FREELY JUST BECAUSE IT DOES NOT SERVE US PURPOSE
Crimea voted to be with R.F. You along with your neocons can moan as much you want . No one gives a shit .
Donetsk , Lugansk both held a referendum after us backed putsch regime took over via coup . They exercise their rights to separate from Ukraine and become sovereign republics . But US backed putsch didn't agree to let them do so . Violation of rights . First learn about Ukraine before spouting typical Murica Murica rant . Americans like you are too dumb and delusional to understand . Look for jack 4952 he will teach you about ukraine on zh . He is an American living in Ukraine for past 15 odd years .
And that's how Russia rolls, colonize, create division, form militia, obtain Russian aid, start small war, fight some battles, ask Moscow to step in, to save the poor innocent beset pro-Moscow minority colony from big evil local gangster fascist government haters.
Seen that movie before.
What occurred in 2008 was the Georgians trying to get their UN recognidsed Sovereign land back from theiving Russians, who had stolen it in 1992, and Moscow simply attacked and overran Georgia and destroyed its armed forces, under the cynical facade of being "peace keepers" rather than territorial bandits.
The silly Georgians has no right to their own land now did they? It has Russians in it so this must be Russian land.
element, i applaud all the insight you've brought to many fuku threads. as much as i find your view and facts (always insights fact based) on the difficulties within ukraine and merika presently, i am grateful you have brought your clarity and long standing perspective to the table. please continue to bring tough, exacting, clear headedness to ZH. thank you for posting.
Human Rights??? Nobody on either side of the Ukraine issue gives a fuck about Human Rights. It's all about raw power. But Russia certainly has a strategic interest about being surrounded by the U.S. (sorry... NATO).
Ukraine could have become a neutral country- a conduit between Russia and Europe if both sides wanted a solution. But no one wants a solution to Ukraine.
Eating too much chocolat always results in a belly ache.
" ... Nobody on either side of the Ukraine issue gives a fuck about Human Rights. ..."
If I put you and your family in that war zone and left you there under shell and snipper fire, exposed to cold, hunger, bad diet, brutality, lack of security, lack of electricity, deprivation, filth, infections, for a year of two, you're going to care more than anything about the basic rights and needs of your family, then and from there on, for the rest of your life.
"It's all about raw power."
Indeed it is, the WWII era was the same. But in the end Hitler took a pill, blew his brains out, burned and bones dispersed, plus others with him did similar. Why? To avoid the rope he and they knew was coming. And many who didn't kill themselves got the rope as a result of the human rights they had destroyed. They didn't kill themselves for honour, they did it because they were afraid of the crimes they had committed against so many human beings.
The overwhelming sentiment when WWII was over and people were hung etc., was to invest resources and a global diplomatic efforts to set up a mechanism to try to make sure it wouldn't happen again from such stupid triggers. This was the number one thing States were concerned with, and Human Rights were the aspect which glued it together. So I don't disagree with your comments at all but the mechanism was created to put an end to precisely what we see now.
There are two broad options; (1) the mechanism stops it and an unhappy peace takes hold, or (2), the mechanism does not stop it, and we take each other out. It is not going to stop via UN magic wand it will take pressure and a diplomatic escape option.
Despite the reasonable front of Lavrov and other equally adept Russian diplomats prior Putin is unfortunately an intransigent nationalist belligerent so is more likely out of pride to go down fighting than to accept a humiliation, or to become pre-emptively magnanimous to defuse it. He does use all the right language at times and it all sounds great, but the actions don't follow the words when only the actions matter.
Everyone's now had it with that little game, and even if Putin was angling to be magnanimous and give ground, now no one even trusts his word. He's now seen as a cynical land stealing liar, and about as welcome as a turd in a punch bowl.
His Dec 4th speech painted him even further into the die-hard pride-bound corner and provides even more reason to presume the worst of him, and what's to come. So the UN mechanism is going to be expanded as the other option is already being prepared (in the event it doesn't yield fruit).
Yes cold war, and hot war(s).
Given that's an extremely unattractive but now unavoidable prospect, to the West, and Russia already cancelled South Stream, it's far more likely that sanctions will be poured on and left on for as long as it takes for the Ukraine conflict to resolve, or for the Russian economy to completely snuff out.
Ukraine is not going to be allowed to not have a resolution.
So the UN mechanism is most certainly going to come to the fore in the same way it did during the cold war. Remember how sanctions, boycotts and human rights brow-beating were used back then? It'll be far more rapid and networked this time around.
(that also is extremely dangerous, as it resembles and effectively is cyber attack, and it will escalate, while the US already declared that a cyber attack on the US will elicit a full-scale military response).
"This has everything to do with human rights..." So much long winded tripe. So Hunter Biden is over there for human rights?
All wars are resource wars.
And people who can't think quote others. What massive resource wealth did the US or Britain or its Allies get out of the ashes of Germany and Italy?
But crowd-sourced 'truth' and a few quips has it all worked out for you, eh?
Jackass.
"And people who can't think quote others."
More like I’m not an egotistical wanna B state dept flunky vomiting verbose delusions.
I chose economize my time and ZH bandwidth and throw up a link.
"Throw up" was right! VT /barf
Here's your "human rights".
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/12/05/human-rights-watch-confirms-russ...
Ah, Veterans Today, that's quite the devastating source you have there, I see you are a man of letters and learning.
I wouldn't consider clicking on a link to such a notorious highly-enriched bullshit factory.
Well, since you're too intellectually lazy to click on the link, let me do the heavy lifting for you.
"“For the first time Human Rights Watch clearly recognized that the Ukrainian military are using multiple-launch missile systems and banned weapons against civilians in Donbass. This confirms the data contained in the White Book released by the Russian Foreign Ministry,” Foreign Ministry’s plenipotentiary for Human Rights and the Rule of Law, Konstantin Dolgov told a news conference in Moscow. “Rights activists must put pressure on the West and on Kiev authorities to prevent further crimes,” the official added."
"... using multiple-launch missile systems and banned weapons against civilians in Donbass."
Civilians formed militias and took up military weapons and fought against a legal state, within its own territory, so what were they / you expecting to come of that?
A yellow dog and a pretty bowl of petunias in the morning sun perhaps?
I would also launch rockets on such people, and yet here I am pointing out to you that one of the core Human Rights is the right of a State to defend itself, against all aggressive enemies, foreign or domestic, within its own territory.
But if you were more interested in reading the linked Declaration of such rights to self defence being one of the key Human rights of peoples and States, rather than quipping brain-dead swill from a busted-arse cerebral circus like VT, you'd know that already, and would not be appropriately branded an imbecile.
ELECTIONS in Ukraine are just a sham . After coup all those parties who were against us regime were cancelled or abandoned . Yeah offering all us puppets either proshenko or yatesenyuk is really encouraging . It's like asking a sheep to choose among three wolfs . Thick yankee cnuts will never mention this fact to push their agenda . Spare other from your pyschotic rabble .
Something tells me you're Russian, can't quite work out what it is.
Element: Civilians formed militias and took up military weapons and fought against a legal state,
You're a clown. I'm being exceedingly polite here.
"Legal State"
Fraudulent (S)elections.
"I would also launch rockets on such people, and yet here I am pointing out to you that one of the core Human Rights is the right of a State to defend itself...
A fraudulently (S)elected State you mean?
So that's your problem, 2+2 will never = 5, no matter how hard you wish it to be so.
Constitutional elections in a constitutionally administered State, recognized by the UN as Sovereign, and accepted by its own people via the process of civil elections of representatives in its Parliament.
Sorry we can't get into a time machine and go back and clean up the pernickety bits that so offend thine delicate and questionably 'moral' sense of legal due process, given you have no regard at all to an aggressive foreign power undermining the peace and killing its citizens via heavy bombardment and shoot down its air force, to take its territory for no justifiable reason whatsoever.
Other than that little fly in the ointment, you seem to really, really, reeeeaally concerned for the welfare and status of the people of Ukraine.
Element: Constitutional elections in a constitutionally administered State, recognized by the UN as Sovereign,
Let me help you out here.....
FRAUDULENT Constitutional elections in a FRAUDULENTLY constitutionally administered State, recognized by the UN (dude, that jizz is stuck to your chin now) . Like the phucking UN has ANY credibility? REALLY?
You should stop now, ok?
The game is rigged and you're trying to sell legitimate here. Not workin'. You just brushed a totally illegitimate (s)election under the table. The turd is floating in the bowl and you're telling us everything is A-OK. Help yourself to another ladel full. Thanks but no thanks.
So you're ok with fraud from top to bottom. Thanks for clearing that up.
Like your post, interesting view.
Regarding Ukraine, how wil you apply these rules if the rulers in Kiev came there by coup d'état?
One of the first thing they did was cancel Russian as a second official language and there were sugesstions to nuke east Ukraine, so there is little love lost between Kiev and the seperatists, and as far as i can see, its Kiev attacking east Ukraine not the other way around.
A constitutional Presidential election occurred on the 25th of August 2014 and constitutional Parliamentary elections occurred on the 26th of October 2014. Due to the hostilities, 27 seats of the 450 seats in parliament could not be filled and are left in that status.
These aren't my 'rules', it's the international arrangement that was put in place 67 years ago, mediated via formal bodies and representative peers of the respective States. Humpty dumpty could not be put back together either but North Korea was so smashed and deterred by the counterattack that it never again tried war again.
Nothing is ever perfect but you can definitely avoid the worst of outcomes and as that is the higher intent of the international crisis architecture, then it has indeed prevented WWIII to date.
Kiev's military has every legal and internationally recognised right to go anywhere that it wishes in its own territory at any time and if it is confronted by illegally armed militants it has the legal right and responsibility to take that territory and kill any force resisting them and to work with other international governments to ensure the outside power supporting them is confronted with their actions and made to pay a debilitating price for it until they cease such support and inflaming of the internal situation of a neighbour.
That is in no way "attacking" anyone, that is 100% defending Ukrainian Sovereign territory and it is entirely legal and it is also their right and constitutional responsibility to do that against any attacker if they hold to internationally agreed rules of war.
The Govt of Ukraine is entirely within their right to decide what their state's language is, as is any other country.
Whether that's wise or counterproductive is another issue entirely and one that is completely resolvable.
Ukraine does not have 'nukes', so that aspect of your comment doesn't apply, but Kiev is entitled to use any weapon it feels necessary to eliminate an aggressive enemy military force operating illegally within its borders, and to reclaim all of its UN recognised territories.
This is the same for all UN recognised Sovereign states and they're all legally able and in fact are constitutionally required to defend all of their territory against all such illegal aggression within their borders.
That's the real nature of the danger because Kiev will indeed be doing precisely that, and this is why the foreign power that 's supporting the on-going combat situation, feels increasing weight of the rest of the world's rejection of the aggressive behaviour of the Russian Government until it understands that further pursuing this action will result in the protracted collapse of the Russian economy and Russian State power.
That also is the nature of the danger, for during and also immediately after the Brisbane G20, leader after leader gave speeches in various venues stating and emphasising that they were left no choice, that if Russia did not cease its behavior, this will also be happening.
So it's time Moscow realised it's in a no-win position and changes its actions, and not just its words. Merely claiming to be innocent won't fool of sate anyone, and it will not stop the pressure now being applied, nor will it prevent further pressure to be progressively added.
Putin can poke out his chest and claim that "mother Russia" has never been bought to heal by a foreign power but that's complete baloney. The Afghan Mujahidin supported by US weapons kicked the crap out of the Russians and bleed them into bankruptcy for a decade, then forced them to withdraw in defeat, and for the Soviet Empire to then ignominiously implode and dissolve itself shortly thereafter.
At some point Russia is in fact going to change its approach and actions or it will suffer that same result once more. And the rest of the world is in fact going to do this if the Russian land grab does not permanently stop.
Thanks for your answer,
I had to look it up but the elections were genuine so according to the rules (Universal Declaration of Human Rights) east Ukraine must stop hostilities.
What a mess, what a mess.
again, thanks
Thank you, for your intellectual honesty.
ELECTIONS in Ukraine are just a sham . After coup all those parties who were against us regime were cancelled or abandoned . Yeah offering all us puppets either proshenko or yatesenyuk is really encouraging . It's like asking a sheep to choose among three wolfs . This is intellectual honesty genius unlike your rabble . Update your sugar coated lies with facts .
You sound a little bit invested in what must be a very compelling version of reality for you. Keep up the good work.
Element: You sound a little bit invested in what must be a very compelling version of reality for you. Keep up the good work.
Right back atcha!
LOL
Intellectual honesty. Haha. Where is yours? Why no mention of the events leading to the March coup that overthrew the true legitimate government? Who financed and directed that illegal action against the state of Ukraine?
Because I discussed it at length a year ago when it was topical, and with about 500 fucking people. It has zero bearing on anything discussed in this topic, hence it is completely superfluous.
Like you.
Well, if you think our overthrow of a foreign government has no bearing on Ron Paul's screed against this war-mongering bill, I think we can see what kind of 'element' you are.
It was 1 year ago this month that Victoria Nudelbitch disclosed that we had spent $5,000,000,000 to bring about the Ukraine coup.
....and that is superfuous?
In this discussion, yes, totally irrelevant to the content, and also common knowledge, plus discussed elsewhere in this same thread, oh super-duper informative one. So got that out of you system now? Or is this your impression of a scratched LP record?
Element: Because I discussed it at length a year ago when it was topical, and with about 500 fucking people.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh gotcha. So fraud has a half life? It's topical last year, but now we just have to brush an illegitimate gov under the table and roll with your plan 365 days later?
Really?
Ferreal?
Eastern UK "hostilities?
Kiev is cluster-bombing eastern UK.
AGAIN!!!!!
I'll re post this.
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/10/a-very-moving-video.html
Just who the phuck is "invading" who?
Oh, right, Russia "invaded" Ukraine with TWO separate convoys of 300+ truck filled with humanitarians goods.... and...ummm.....
"retreated" both times,
I read it (Russia Invaded) TWICE on Drudge Report so it must be true. You shitbags need to talk to people on the ground there....for a start.
Why? Because like you they have no incentive to talk shit and misrepresent? Gee, what did they tells ya? Must have got some real good info! You got it by going to the combat zone and talking directly to the people and saws it all for yourself wiff your own little bow peeps!
No you didn't, you read some dubious piss-taking slop made up by VT, or from some twitter dubious recycled crowd-sourced truth-wad, or you watched a propaganda video that was full of reall pikturs!! You pathetic no-nothing phoney.
So, where is the MH-17 Black Box report? Why can we get that info in a couple of days normally, but now months have gone by, and....nothing.
Where are the tapes from the control tower directing the flight?
You come here with an ass load of weasel words and sound like a State Department lackey & Neo-Con tool, and expect us to cozy up to the propaganda you spew?
Although I must say, I do appreciate your diatribes today. Gives us all a good look at what we are dealing with.....thanks.
No problem, though I feel a little under paid in that case given that as incomprehensible (to you) as this is I'm just a regular bloke who simply examines issues himself and does not refer to the accepted zh-eep for the crowd-sourced 'known' truth.
Curious how zh transformed so quickly into a bastion of Putin-loving dipshits since about Sept last year. Maybe its a gathering of latent closet homos who're now feeling increasingly confident about their sexual preferences. It could be that basic. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
element: No problem, though I feel a little under paid in that case given that as incomprehensible (to you) as this is I'm just a regular bloke who simply examines issues himself and does not refer to the accepted zh-eep for the crowd-sourced 'known' truth.
Funny.
Actually you do, you're dipping right into crowdsourceium. Connect to the people on the ground, ok?
Element: Curious how zh transformed so quickly into a bastion of Putin-loving dipshits since about Sept last year. Maybe its a gathering of latent closet homos who're now feeling increasingly confident about their sexual preferences. It could be that basic. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
I'm a little more surprised that there are still some dingleberry (cling-ons) wanna be state dept backing shills left here.
Go one to one. The internet is amazing. Talk to the people in Crimea.
Element knows nothing about Crimea
Crimea is still celebrating
Dude, you really need to check out this blog and stop talking smack, ok?
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/
You can link to hundreds of people from Crimea who are getting shelled "illegally" by the fascist / NAZI US supported so called government in Kiev.
Grow some balls, really. Talk to the people on the ground.
Element
I will gladly be corrected but I believe Russia, on it's own territory, has never be "brought to heal'- your language. And the current adventure in Afghanistan is going to result in what ?? A glorious victory ??
Iraq is the template of adventurism in the name of (insert cute, compelling phrase here). Sadam was a murdering dictator exchanged for a power vacuum filled by more murderers.
Putin is a murdering authoritarian. So what. Killing without trial is done every day in the name of goodness and motherhood. It doesn't rate more attention then a fender-bender on the Intersate.
If we can continue to print prosperity, if collapsing oil prices help not hurt the U.S. economy, then keep spoiling for a fight with Russia. If not, remember we reap what we sow.
K
If you think I want war I don't know where that comes from.
If Russia was just on its own territory rather than carving off others, you would be right, and I would agree. What took the Soviets out was a proxy war but only in conjunction with bad wheat harvests, low oil prices, plus the inability to secure more western loans. Most people don't realise the Communist Soviets were desperately trying to lend money from western banks, and when that was denied (they were after all a bad risk), then they finally collapsed, and shop stores and bakeries were completely empty.
If Sadam actually had WMDs and Bush had more than an INTEL fairytail it may have went better, but since it was complete bullshit and US military simply trashed and ransacked the country, and shot up innocent people on a daily basis, it was always going to boil over.
The moment the US announced the intent to lobby the UNSC for a resolution to invade Iraq I knew it was a terrible error. Sadam was not worth it. I can't remember who said it, a Jordanian I think, but said that day that, "if the US invades Iraq it will open the gates of Hell", he repeated it, and when asked what it meant, he made reference to unstoppable sectarian and tribal conflict.
I can think of a number of western leaders who should have ben on a rope with Sadam. Unfortunately only a victor gets to hang the badies. And clean victories simply don't exist for the USA. They didn't exist for Hitler ether, and maybe there's a lesson in that, i.e., aggressors don't fight for a victory, but defenders always do.
So who's more likely to get a victory then?
Ask Vietnam.
Oh, come on.... Let's get this straight.
First the legal government of Ukraine is overthrown by an illegal coup funded by the united states.
Then that illegal government has elections and voila,,, It's now legitimate! Would that be government laundering? LOL
What are you smoking?
Yes, that's what happened, and yes, that is how it works with big powers. This was not a mystery in the 1950s through 1990s in Central and South America.
Just ask Castro.
take note that the deal for the IMF loans and EU association agreement that was agreed to by the coup beneficiaries, was actually negotiated with exactly the same conditions, FIRST, by President Viktor Yanukovych, which he rejected on the 19th December 2013, because the conditions were so shitty they were impossible to live with.
Two days after the failure of the Association agreement, due to the extremely shitty IMF terms the coup action plan commenced then the people who got the reins of power implemented EXACTLY the same deal as the one President Viktor Yanukovych was working on.
Except the coup plotters actually signed it.
Hence Ukraine is in the toilet for decades.
But the only reason Yanukovych was working on IMF loans is because Ukraine was already buggered.
i.e. no matter who took over collapse was baked in. And if Yanukovych had signed with the IMF instead, then the Russians would probably still have done most of the very same things to guard its Black sea fleet and port access.
So, did it make a damn bit fo difference?
Not to Ukraine! And not to Russia, because Ukraine then had ZERO choice remaining but to cast its' lot with the West, one way or another.
It just turned out to be the other way is all.
What's the bloody difference? It was a Sovereign default and they hadn't paid the gas bill, so Russia carved up Ukraine because it did not like the divorce terms and wanted to take the car and the kids.
So now we have a custody battle which Russia is going to lose ... and get very badly hurt by.
Is that straight enough for you now?
"What Russia is doing to Ukraine is going to see Russia's State turned into another isolated version of North Korea, if Vladimir Putin does not stop attacking the Sovereign territory of Ukraine with separatist fifth column pro-Moscow forces and fanning the flames of territorial conquest."
How come Uncle Sam didn't get isolated like North Korea as a result of its invasion of Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, wherever...? And its current invasion of Syria? etc, etc.
Because each one of those individual instances was voted on and each won majority support within the UN (even using false pretexts or cynically concocted disinformation campaigns to argue and support the US case) and I referred to the damage that this has caused to the US's current position and lack of credibility.
What a boat load of NWO crap. What happens when the U.S. instigates and finances a coup of the legitimate government, backs and finances a bunch of Nazi thugs, who threaten to kill and exterminate Russians and people who speak Russian, who bomb and kill innocent Russian speaking civilians, and who shoot down unarmed civilians in a passenger airplane? What happened to the right to protect oneself and one's family from an insane facist government hell-bent on eliminating all dissent. What happens when the U.S. government and it's proxies use this U.N. "law" to undermine legitimate governments, and establish puppet governments more to its liking so it can build pipe lines, steal resources, and economically dominate the world? The government of Ukraine lost any rights it may have been able to claim under the U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights when it overthrew the legitimate goverment by force. You should have started and focused your analysis there. Instead, your entire focus is on the responsibility of the people in East Ukraine and on the Russians. What happened to the responsibility of the Ukrainian government to the people of East Ukraine? In fact, the Ukrainian government has already demonstrated what it thinks of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights when it comes to Russians living in East Ukraine - it is toilet paper to be used to wipe their collective asses.
The current government of Ukraine will never let the people in East Ukraine live in peace. They will kill them, torture them, starve them, and exterminate them. The people of East Ukraine have no fancy illusions about any of this. They are fighting for their lives and their families lives, and your lofty, ivory tower, idealistic, pie-in-the-sky, NWO, U.N. bullshit is nothing more than that - high-minded lofty words designed to hide U.S. aggression and hedgemony. The Univeral Declaratin of Human Rights shield has become a sword in the hands of the NWO.
The government of Ukraine lost any rights it may have been able to claim under the U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights when it overthrew the legitimate government by force.
--
I see you didn't study the link to The Universal declaration of Human Rights 1948 or else you would know the very obvious answer. And to much of the the other equally irrelevant splatter you wrote. If you won't act in even a minimalist way to abate or inform your ignorance and emotive reactivity, you are left with nothing of value to blurt.
Actually, I have read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And your interpretation of it is self-serving nonsense, and way off base. You paint it as a text which gives equal protection to sovereign states. It does not. Far from it. It is a document which enshrines the individual, individual liberties and individual rights. It is the rights of individuals that are paramount, not the rights of states and nations. A few examples out of many:
“Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,
Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,”
I challenge you to quote the sections you believe support the arument you have made above. Cite the language and explain how you think it supports the argument you've made. Because I don't see it. It seems you have filled in lots of blank space with your own colors. If you’re referring to Article 8, or Article 21, I’ll save you the time and trouble.
Article 8.
•Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 21.
•(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
•(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
•(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
This sounds great... unless someone is overthrowing elected governments by force, dropping bombs on you and shooting at you to kill. So the East Ukrainians are supposed to do what? Petition the Ukrainian government? Petition the U.N.? A great theoretical framework. But in reality? Only a fool would believe this provides protection against the likes of Poroshenko and the U.S. backed agenda. Or perhaps a spokesperson for the NOW agenda, with a belief that standing up to the U.S. and its outrageous bullying is a crime. As a matter of fact, the U.S. wouldn’t exist if the founding fathers believed in your argument and point of view.
Thanks for the down-vote though. I see you have 14. Does that mean no one is buying what you're selling...
I said the relationship and responsibility of state to citizen, and vice versa, is laid out in it, and it is. I also went on to say the larger structure and process it relates to and is the bedrock of, is this:
And no, I'm not interested in 'voting' you up or down. I said I'm not a populist like Vlad and Co., I don't want your approval, with luck I'll successfully never obtain it. Likewise your opprobrium matters as much as toe-jam.
I'll just say I'm glad to see you did at lest read it, and the preamble also, I've read it several times over the years and related docs, and taken detailed notes on it, so I do know the content, and also its implicit relations with states, and state interactions, mediated via the UN system.
Element
You remind me of Monty Python - The Black Knight, "hey, come back here, you might have chopped off all 4 of my main appendages, but I'm still in the game..."
thanks for the smile
K
You can discuss a pet consensus that you feel cozy with or you can have a real discussion that challenges your accreted biased. What's to fear? Death of a meme? Loss of membership in Vladimir's zero-hedge mickey-mouse fan club?
I don't assess I've encountered a valid retort, so far, and if I didn't need a sleep I'd see no reason to stop.I just wish the commenters were more capable, it's embarrassing to see such a low-brow standard's become overwhelmingly commonplace in here.
Try reading the u.s Declaration of Independence of which the u.s constitution is based upon along with the Magna Carta. Written long before the globalist u.s proxy world government united nations was a dirty thought.
In the Declaration it is stated: ..."That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness..."
The fact that the u.s was founded upon these principles yet desparages another people the same right? Then arming one side in which to kill those unwilling to live under the u.s imposed fascist regime?
Someone already quoted the portion of the Declaration of Human Rights 1948 that states much the same things, the difference as I pointed out in my original post, is this:
So if a UN recognised Government is indeed not upholding the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and it's principles and responsibilities to its people in actual Law, but is flagrantly breaking them, then the 2nd, 3rd and 4th paragraphs of the beginning of the Preamble are quite explicit about what that government is risking and what is at stake to the members of that government:
i.e. Law must exist and it must be applied justly, or revolt and overthrow is acceptable as a last resort.
So what happened in Ukraine's case?
Simple, the vast baulk of the population did not revolt, they had no reason to, as they did not have a problem with Human Rights Law's application, they had a problem with Viktor Yanukovych not signing up to the IMF loans on the 19th of Nov 2014, that would allow an EU association to proceed to completion thereafter.
The deal was off, the conditions stank! And still do, but beggers can't be choosers.
It was only after the coup that the pro-Russian minority decided that their little patch of the Ukraine was going to be an independent Russian enclave, that a minority revolt took place.
This does not meet the criteria of a lack of Human Rights Laws to protect the citizens, nor does it constitute a lack of observance of those civil Laws, nor is this series of events a sufficient excuse for any sort of justifiable armed revolt against Kiev at the behest, and with training and arming of a foreign military power, that entered Ukraine without permission, and delivered arms and supplies and trainers, etc., etc.
And Putin did this after Moscow had already carved off Crimea, and commandeered its fucking navy, which was not even firing!
So no, those rebels are criminal fifth columnists who are at odds with a UN recognized State that was respecting the guidelines and principles of human rights observance and its civil Laws, during a period of domestic political crisis that Moscow used to take Crimea, then fermented war in the East.
Pulling out guns and declaring war on Kiev was completely unjustified and Kiev is under the principles of the UN Charter and the Declaration of Human rights now free to pursue the resumption of all of its territory, by force of arms.
And that will be what happens - see the 4th para again:
Vlad's not too keen on that bit, but that's the whole problem.
As I suspected, you have failed to deliver the goods. I challenged you to quote the language on which you relied for your argument, and instead I get more self-serving bullshit -- “I said the relationship and responsibility of state to citizen, and vice versa, is laid out in it, and it is.”
Why? Because you said so? I don’t think so. That's not an argument. That's bullshit. There is simply no support in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights for the argument you make in over 40 paragraphs above, notwithstanding you conclusory and unsupported statements to the contrary. In fact, the rebels in East Ukraine will find much more support for their actions in that Declaration than Poroshenko and his crowd will ever find. Your argument, while admittedly clever and slick, is nonetheless specious and fraudulent and without factual support. If you were in a court of law, you’d be thrown out because your arguments simply don’t hold water. Worse, you think quantity is tantamount to quality. Hence your overblown and disingenuous tomes. You also think getting in the last word somehow saves your argument. It does not.
Your real diabolical position is laid out very concisely in your paragraph below where you state, “Kiev's military has every legal and internationally recognized right to go anywhere that it wishes in its own territory at any time and if it is confronted by illegally armed militants it has the legal right and responsibility to take that territory and kill any force resisting them and to work with other international governments to ensure the outside power supporting them is confronted with their actions and made to pay a debilitating price for it until they cease such support and inflaming of the internal situation of a neighbor.”
Your twisted position sounds like it was torn from the pages of the NWO or the Communist manifesto. It reminds me of the rationale used by Stalin and the Communists to butcher their opposition -- 20 million plus Russians. By your own words you think it’s just fine for the State to murder its own citizens when they take any action to defend themselves against a murderous and tyrannical government hell-bent on the genocide of a large portion of its citizens. Funny, I didn’t see anything in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that would support such a twisted and perverted view. In fact, I saw just the opposite. There are certain basic human rights of the individual which are scared and paramount, which the state must always provide, and to which the State must always yield.
Your argument is the face of the new liberal Neo-Fascism and the NWO – justifying the murder of “rebels,” who were attacked first, by using the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And all under the banner of upholding the “rule of law.” A more disingenuous, grotesque and evil interpretation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the rule of law, and common sense is hard to imagine.
Our little 'element' is interesting, intelligent, informed, AND he has an agenda. He has certainly wasted lot of time on educating the rest of us on ZH. Thank you for your retort.
bored
What what in my butt
So, your stating the Kosovo independence referendum was illegal?
Element just wrote the first ever declaration of douchedom. Trolling must pay well.
Ron Paul, what have you accomplished? I do not judge you by your vision, but by your results. You delayed defensive response while sucking up all the graft up you could. Your son is worse, an enemy of mankind.
Fuck You.
Fuck you too, left wing traitors. You are no better.
Eat shit and
No, fuck you Sir....
Your hero is not what he seems, willfully blind follower. DYOFH. Do it fast.
If you think this resolution is the worst "legislation" ever, you're a fucking child.
"We, the people" has transformed into "We, the plutocrats" long ago, and you didn't even notice. Well, some culture is necessary to understand things. Yours is limited to "make money" - the lowest level.
You (the people...) want war - well you will finally have it, but I am not sure you will like it. Because you will have it on your own heads, not far away in Europe, or elswhere in places you don't even know where they are.
What Nostradamus quatrain foresaw this irresistible cumcockshun to those fucktards (i.e. those who hate Ron Paul and Putin)?
What goes around eventually comes around. There's no doubt about it. And WWIII has been going around for the last 9 months with the intensity that has never been seen before. So prepare yourself.
Fuck CONgress
Not with your dick would I fuck that whore named Congress.
USA is looking for a WAR, the most terrible WAR we can imagine. They are the most stupid people History has ever seen.
There in lies the conundrum. The world will blame America for the international evil oligarchs that use our military and government as proxy for their goals. They are beholden to no country and will kill anything in their way. Hence, the blame will fall on the average American when the true evil will be in a chalet on another continent.
We allow it to continue by laziness and unwilling to get involved. Ultimately we are the responsible party regardless of who is the instigator. When you see the bright flash in the sky will denying the blame really matter?
The American protestors in places like NYC, Chicago and St. Louis better be putting this one into the "priority queue".
Getting the worst case of "sun burn" vs. getting choked to death by a cop are both negative outcomes. But I'd rather take my chances with the probability of the second one happening when the first one will be the "enforcer" for the rest of us if the likes of Ashton Carter gets the nod from the knish gallery in Washington!
White Europeans at its best!
Watch this; in case you do not like the video at least you can listen to the music, nice one…
{ bit.ly/1pMCQv5 }
Saludos..
.
I understand that some 90% of Crimeans voted in favor of Russia over Ukraine control. If that is the will of these folks, let them have it. I understand that the Kiev gov't is as corrupt as they get.
Why does the USA try to force the Crimeans or those living in E. Ukraine to endure rule of corruption that emanates from Kiev??
Some would say that the USA has little interest in the will of those folk, but in other national interests.
Its all Kabbalah black magic.
Where up is down and wrong is right.
We are like Hirohito's Imperial Japan in WWII:
-We have an Emperor/Imperial leader
-MIC warring and pillaging across the globe.
They didn't stop till the nukes started dropping.
U.S. war mongers won't stop till cities start getting vaporized.
----history.com---
Meanwhile, Japan’s conflict with China was growing. In 1931, Japanese army officers initiated the so-called Manchurian Incident by detonating a railway explosion and blaming it on Chinese bandits. They then used the event as an excuse to take over Manchuria in northeastern China and set up a puppet state there
--------------
Sounds like the template they used in Ukraine. But a passenger jet instead of train.
Attempted to try in Syria.
ISIS gives them a reason to go anywhere they want.
Just like the Saudis after 9/11, they will be first out on the tarmac in their private jets by order of the President. .01% has its' privileges.
Nope-1004, you summed it up beautifully. This is only about USA corporate/petro-dollar interests at work in the Ukraine.
Yet ANOTHER reason why 9/11 was funny...
Yet ANOTHER reason why 9/11 was funny...
They aren't getting anywhere with Obama so might as well try Putin.
One minute warning for the USA.
http://youtu.be/_QZLuu_8du4
Everybody the world over hates Washington D.C. and Loyd Blankfein.
Paul Craig Roberts has a fine article. Odd that it's not posted on his site but it is posted here if one wishes to brave the elements.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/russia-has-western-enemies-not-partners.html
Every word, painfully true.
The voted YES because the MIC is everywhere providing JOBS that create weapons of mass death and destruction.
They are calling it as it is. The Russians invaded Ukraine. What the United States should do is another question.
This person feels differently as to the "invasion".
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/10/a-very-moving-video.html