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All Over America, Government Officials Are Cracking Down On Preppers

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Michael Snyder via The Economic Collapse blog,

Why would the government want to punish people that are just trying to work hard, become more self-sufficient and take care of their families?  There are approximately 3 million preppers in the United States today, and often they appear to be singled out for punishment by bureaucratic control freaks that are horrified at the thought that there are families out there that actually want to try to become less dependent on the system.  So if you use alternative methods to heat your home, or if you are not connected to the utility grid, or if you collect rainwater on your property, or if you believe that parents should have the ultimate say when it comes to health decisions for their children, you could become a target for overzealous government enforcers. 

Once upon a time, America was the land of the free and the home of the brave, but now we are being transformed into a socialist police state where control freak bureaucrats use millions of laws, rules and regulations to crack down on anyone that dares to think for themselves.

For example, people have been burning wood to heat their homes since this country began.  And this is still very common in rural areas.  But the Obama administration does not like this at all.  The Obama bureaucrats at the EPA fear that our little wood stoves may be contributing to “global warming”, so they have outlawed the production and sale of 80 percent of the wood stoves that are currently in use.  The following comes from a recent Forbes article

It seems that even wood isn’t green or renewable enough anymore. The EPA has recently banned the production and sale of 80 percent of America’s current wood-burning stoves, the oldest heating method known to mankind and mainstay of rural homes and many of our nation’s poorest residents. The agency’s stringent one-size-fits-all rules apply equally to heavily air-polluted cities and far cleaner plus typically colder off-grid wilderness areas such as large regions of Alaska and the American West.

 

While EPA’s most recent regulations aren’t altogether new, their impacts will nonetheless be severe. Whereas restrictions had previously banned wood-burning stoves that didn’t limit fine airborne particulate emissions to 15 micrograms per cubic meter of air, the change will impose a maximum 12 microgram limit. To put this amount in context, EPA estimates that secondhand tobacco smoke in a closed car can expose a person to 3,000-4,000 micrograms of particulates per cubic meter.

 

Most wood stoves that warm cabin and home residents from coast-to-coast can’t meet that standard. Older stoves that don’t cannot be traded in for updated types, but instead must be rendered inoperable, destroyed, or recycled as scrap metal.

Does that make you angry?

It should.

There are other preppers that try to use very “clean” methods to power their homes, but that is still not good enough for some government control freaks.

For example, one prepper down in south Florida that had gone “off the grid” was recently ordered by a court to connect back to the grid or face eviction from his home.  The following is an excerpt from a recent article by Guiles Hendrik

Think you are still free to make choices in your life? Do you think the government will allow you to live independent of their utility monopolies? If you think so, try opting for renewable non-grid tied power and utilize environmentally friendly composting toilets and your own self-sufficient water supply. Today, those life choices could land you in jail if you live in South Florida. Take the case of Robin Speronis.

 

Robin Speronis has lived off the grid, independent of the city’s water and electric system. A Florida court ruled this off-the-grid living illegal last week and has given Robin until March to connect her home to a municipal water line or face possible eviction. Further, officials in the city of Cape Coral have justified this by deeming Robin’s home “unsanitary,” citing the International Property Maintenance Code. First of all, since when did we begin to locally recognize “international codes?” Where in the US Constitution does it provide for international jurisdiction over local codes? Ironically, this “international” code mandates that homes be connected to an electricity grid and a running water source, even though most of the world lives without reliable electricity and municipal water and sewer. Further, the code is outdated and obsolete because it was written without consideration to both old and new technologies that relegate the need for grid tied power and municipal water as unnecessary and expensive; especially, in locations where it simply isn’t feasible to have grid tied utilities. Nonetheless, Speronis’ home does in fact have power and water through far cheaper and more environmentally friendly means — solar panels and rainwater, but that reality is ignored by the local government.

Incredibly, most Americans still seem to believe that we live in a “free country”.  But we don’t.  Our lives are very tightly constrained by literally millions of laws, rules and regulations, and more are being added every single day.

Even some of our most basic fundamental rights have been seriously eroded.  One of these is the right to make basic health decisions for our own children.  In New York state, children that have not received all of the designated vaccines can now be banned from attending public school, and this requirement was recently upheld by a federal appeals court

New York state’s requirement that children be vaccinated before attending public school does not violate their constitutional rights, a federal appeals court in Manhattan said on Wednesday.

 

In affirming the requirement’s constitutionality, a three-judge panel of the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals also upheld a previous ruling by a federal judge that students exempted from the requirement for religious reasons can be barred from school when another child has a disease preventable by a vaccine.

 

The decision was the latest to go against three parents from New York City who say their religious rights were violated when their children were kept out of school as a result of the immunization policies. The parents’ lawyer, Patricia Finn, said her clients planned to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.

So what are we free to do without government interference these days?

Not much.

In fact, in some states we can’t even sit on our own land and collect the rain as it falls from the sky for our own personal use.

If you do this in the state of Oregon, for example, you could go to prison

Gary Harrington, the Oregon man convicted of collecting rainwater and snow runoff on his rural property surrendered Wednesday morning to begin serving his 30-day, jail sentence in Medford, Ore.

 

“I’m sacrificing my liberty so we can stand up as a country and stand for our liberty,” Harrington told a small crowd of people gathered outside of the Jackson County (Ore.) Jail.

 

Several people held signs that showed support for Harrington as he was taken inside the jail.

And of course these are just a few examples.  Almost every single day there are more stories in the news about government bureaucrats cracking down on preppers.  They almost seem to relish the opportunity to go after the “non-conformists”.

But the good news is that the number of Americans that are seeking to become less dependent on the system just continues to grow.

So what about you?

Are you a prepper?

My friend Daisy Luther recently wrote a piece entitled “45 MORE Signs That You Might Be One of Those Crazy Preppers“.  The following are some of the most interesting “signs” from her list…

*You spend your days off digging an underground bunker in your backyard.

*Your family doesn’t dare take something from the food stockpile without marking it off the list.

*Your kids know how to don a gas mask in 30 seconds.

*Everyone in your survival group carries the same firearm so that ammo is standardized.

*Your family is no longer surprised when you announce, “Hey, we’re going to learn how to make (insert anything here)!”

*You have long since accepted the idea that if you’re not on someone’s list, you’re probably not doing it right.

*You don’t just rotate food, you rotate ammo.

*Moving to a new house is no longer “moving”, but “strategic relocation”.

*Your kids think it’s a fun game to see who can find the most potential weapons in a room.

*Your EDC includes a knife, firearm w/extra mag, flashlight, mylar blanket, Chapstick, and an ounce of silver — and that’s just for when you’re walking the dog.

*One criterion for your new winter coat is that it fits over your body armor.

You can read her entire article right here.

America was built by people that loved their families, worked hard and were self-sufficient.

Now our government is specifically targeting those kinds of people.

What in the world is happening to us?

 

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Sat, 01/10/2015 - 04:27 | 5645149 Axenolith
Axenolith's picture

Getting your physics and biology education from cinema isn't really conducive to functioning in the "real" world...

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 05:16 | 5645166 Batman11
Batman11's picture

In a land of lax gun control and high school massacres anything could happen.

 

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:19 | 5645673 Dickweed Wang
Dickweed Wang's picture

You're talking about Sweden, right??

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 09:38 | 5645368 css1971
css1971's picture

Go look at the nuclear "wasteland" round Chernobyl. Lots of videos on youtube.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:19 | 5645664 Dickweed Wang
Dickweed Wang's picture

Chernobyl is not a good analogy for a nuclear attack. Typically a nuclear attack will consist of airbursts which do not contaminate the ground like a ground burst, which is similar to Chernobyl in it's effects. Ground bursts are typically used against hardened targets, such as missile silos and other underground facilities.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 10:17 | 5645421 Dickweed Wang
Dickweed Wang's picture

You're implying that a nuclear war will instantly kill everyone, and that nothing can be done to prepare for it, or to survive it once it's occured.  These are widely-held, utterly false ideas . . . . .

You are spot on on the issue of survivability of a nuclear attack.  With most modern hydrogen bombs in the 250-350 kiloton range the actual blast radius  (5 psi) is about 3 miles (or about 29 square miles total area effected)  If you don't believe me you can go to http://www.nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/ and you can set up and explode your own nuke to see what the effects are. 

At 5 psi overpressure, most residential buildings collapse, injuries are universal and fatalities are widespread.  Outside the 3 mile radius the effects from the blast fall off dramatically whereby after about 5-7 miles from the epicenter of the explosion the damage is mainly from flash burns and wind damage similar to a major thunderstorm or light tornado. 

The idea of major radiation contamination over wide spread areas is also another widely believed false-hood.  Most nuclear blasts over populated areas will be air-bursts at an altitude ranging from a few thousand feet to more than a mile.  With most modern nuclear weapons being inherently "cleaner" than their 1950's and 1960's counterparts the actual radiation experienced at ground level outside the 3 mile blast zone will be relatively minimal.

As you've indicated if you have a plan to shelter in place for a period of a couple of weeks and you are lucky enough to be outside of the 5 psi blast zone then your chances of surviving a nuclear attack are pretty good. 

The last false-hood is that their will be nothing to come out to after the radiation has subsided.  Again, if you are talking about the area inside the 5 psi major damage area - it is correct to say that nothing will be left to come out to.  But outside that relatively small major damage area most of the major structures and a large percentage of smaller structures, like frame houses, strip malls, grocery stores, etc. will be intact and in a lot of cases will only require surface repairs. 

Now the effects of the EMP from the blast and how that will TOTALLY screw up our modern way of life is another issue entirely . . . . .

Sun, 01/11/2015 - 16:44 | 5648652 SameAsItEverWas
SameAsItEverWas's picture

You are spot on on the issue of survivability of a nuclear attack.  With most modern hydrogen bombs in the 250-350 kiloton range the actual blast radius  (5 psi) is about 3 miles (or about 29 square miles total area effected) ...

I suspect you're more right than you realize because you seem to be assuming a "typical" nuclear weapon blast to be ~300 kilotons, which is a very good guess for maximal yield of a modern "three-stage" fieldable medium-weight nuclear weapon (i.e. fission-fusion-fission design) small and light enough for a MIRVd ICBM or a fighter-jet-deliverable bomb. 

Military doctrine ever since the 1960s in both U.S. and Soviet forces is to use minimal yield that accomplishes objective.  As delivery accuracy increased (helped greatly by minitiarization of the Bs and Ws themselves), their necessary nuclear yield has decreased, and there have been great advances in the targeting accuracy of all delivery vehicles.  It's easier to have an accurate hit if your projectile is smaller, everything thing else equal.  And nuclear weapon designs have become lighter and smaller at the same time that targeting accuracy has improved.  Little of this information has made it into the public domain.  Probably the best source of information would be the books and other writings of Sidney Drell.  Drell is a straight shooter IMHO. 

There is a thing called Dial-a-Yield which allows the nuclear yield of modern three-stagers to be adjusted with simple valve for booster gas. I believe that in any real nuclear shooting war, at least early stages, minimum yields would be used, which might put a typical/nominal yield per successful "large hit" maybe one-tenth of your figure, or about the same yield as from Little Man and Fat Boy, or ~20 kT.  Those would be the strategic hits on military targets and vital infrastructure.

Just as important is the practical elimination of tactical nukes from active duty which began in the 1980s.  While Reagan signed the treaties, Bush Sr. implemented the changes.  Booth side pretty much eliminated tactical nukes from the active stockpile and while some might say they're still in depots somewhere and could be activated and loaded onto vehicles, if there are no plans and procedures for how to use them and no exercises to test readiness, they might as well not exist at all, because if nobody knows how to use them they can't be used.

After the INF Treaty and their withdrawal from Europe, together with Bush Sr.'s little-heralded decision to stop having B-52s on active alert where they alert the entire base to load weapons and roll out to an active runway ready for takeoff, etc.  It was also Bush Sr. who removed all tactical and demolition nuclear weapons from Army custody and gave similar orders to remove to shore depots all surface-ship and airplane-based Navy nuclear weapons and to totally remove the nuclear capabilities of the U.S Army; tactical weapons are no longer in the active stockpile.  Battlefield weapons, or "small hits" could be intended to yield one-tenth or less of the "big hits" and maybe only one or two kilotons.

Nuclear weapons of today are nothing like the multi-megaton city killers like the B-53.  Ever since the 1970s, nuclear weapons designers have been struggling to reduce nuclear yield and make smaller, more accurate, and more reliable weapons.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 04:19 | 5645146 Axenolith
Axenolith's picture

Coming from outside the US it does seem strange that so many Americans dream of a future living in a muddy hole in Montana living off baked beans

You need to travel more, most places people would "hole up in" out west are about as close to paradise as you'll get.

The US Government seems to going all out to provoke war with Russia, what good are survival skills and a couple of bars of gold when the H bombs go off?

A lot. Sure, there's some locational luck involved, but if you're outside of blast radii and prepared to shelter possibly for a few weeks, you're going to survive.  It's up to you what you make of that afterwards.  The odds it will get to that are pretty slim, the powers that be will profit far more off a conventional war where they can use up their rabble rousers and disguise their inflation.

Government is not supposed to be a bad thing in Europe it has been the result of millenia of progress

Oh yea, Europe has really batted a thousand on that government thingy.  "Democracy" tends to lead to people voting for a more accessable nipple for benefits.  Benefits = control + a sapped productive class.  We have a Republic, a representative, Constitutional one to be exact, and one currently sorely pressed by forces that have whittled away at the representative aspect of that.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 05:10 | 5645161 Batman11
Batman11's picture

In the UK the richest person is the Duke of Westminster, an old aristocrat.

His life's work was complete when he had navigated his way through the birth canal.

We don't think all wealth is earned over here.

As you are now forming your 0.1% aristocracy you will soon get the idea.

 

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 09:20 | 5645341 Dickweed Wang
Dickweed Wang's picture

Last time I checked [fill in the blank] Rothschild was the richest person in the UK - or am I misinformed here??

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 05:42 | 5645181 besnook
besnook's picture

even democracy or republic needs to be torn down once in awhile to be rebuilt upon another foundation. the only successful .gov of any form that has been successful is some form of benevolent dictatorship or .gov mandate(early usa). never perfect in any form.

it works reasonably well at the local level in the usa and even at some of the smaller state levels. once these guys are involved in big states or cities and federal office they either were crazy to begin with or they lose their minds when they get there. what has always bothered me is they sincerely don't seem to know they are the ones who created the mess to begin with. that is why the path to political/economic destruction is so predictable.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 06:32 | 5645183 Batman11
Batman11's picture

Hayek of the Austrian school was a European aristocrat.

He had been born into money and didn't like Governments taking it.

Governments were destroying his aristocracy.

 

He had no problems with a powerful aristocarcy being formed by taking wealth and power from an absolute monarch.

Self interest prevailed.

 

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 09:08 | 5645330 Dickweed Wang
Dickweed Wang's picture

Don't kid yourself . . . . money in politics (to the extent it has been involved since the civil war) is what has screwed up the government of the USA.  Once politicians became more concerned with garnering support from their money masters so they can remain in office - rather than seeking office to actually serve the interests of their constituents - then the wheels totally fell off the buggy.

Sun, 01/11/2015 - 16:28 | 5648853 SameAsItEverWas
SameAsItEverWas's picture

Don't kid yourself . . . . money in politics (to the extent it has been involved since the civil war) ...

Civil War?  Don't kid yourself.  Ever since the very beginning, the primary purpose of the federal government was, and remains, protecting the interests of the rich and powerful.

See Charles A. Beard, An Economic Interpretation of the Constitution of the United States, 1913.

Also, see a purported rebuttal of Beard's thesis of constitutional economic self-interest in We the People: The Economic Origins of the Constitution, Forrest McDonald, 1991. 

It's clearly absurd to misconstrue Beard as claiming that only motivation of the Framers was to protect the moneyed interests.  Of course there were multiple factors and forces at play!  Beard poked big holes in the mythological U.S. history of people like Bancroft, who teach U.S. History as if it's the national religion.

A publisher's blurb about McDonald's book is below.  If anyone is interested is this, reading both of these books would make you better informed than most tenured professors who teach American history in today's universities.  From https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=YSCyB9bUlQcC re We the People: The Economic Origins of the Constitution, Forrest McDonald, 1991. 

---------------

Beskrivelse

 Charles A. Bear's [sic] An Economic Interpretation of the United States Constitution was a work of such powerful persuasiveness as to alter the course of American historiography. No historian who followed in studying the making of the Constitution was entirely free from Beard's radical interpretation of the document as serving the economic interests of the Framers as members of the propertied class. Forrest McDonald's We the People was the first major challenge to Beard's thesis. This superbly researched and documented volume restored the Constitution as the work of principled and prudential men. It did much to invalidate the crude economic determinism that had become endemic in the writing of American history. We the People fills in the details that Beard had overlooked in his fragmentary book. MacDonald's work is based on an exhaustive comparative examination of the economic biographies of the 55 members of the Constitutional Convention and the 1,750 members of the state ratifying conventions. His conclusion is that on the basis of evidence, Beard's economic interpretation does not hold. McDonald demonstrates conclusively that the interplay of conditioning or determining factors at work in the making of the Constitution was extremely complex and cannot be rendered intelligible in terms of any single system of interpretation. McDonald's classic work, while never denying economic motivation as a factor, also demonstrates how the rich cultural and political mosaic of the colonies was an independent and dominant factor in the decision making that led to the first new nation. In its pluralistic approach to economic factors and analytic richness, We the People is both a major work of American history and a significant document in the history of ideas. It continues to be an essential volume for historians, political scientists, economists, and American studies specialists.

 

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 08:06 | 5645268 JR
JR's picture

If by meritocracy you mean rule of the people by King Bankers, you got it. Europe has returned to feudalism, overlorded  by central bankers acting in concert to dominate each country and their economies as a whole for their own private ends.

Europeans are paying the cost of their own slavery.

Both the ECB and the EU combine as a political and financial tyranny that’s overriding the sovereignty of the nations of Europe and channeling the people's resources into a banker-controlled world government.

You are not free; you are brainwashed.

The ECB and the EU have central goals that are not conflicting. In their weak moments they admit that they must have reduced sovereignty for this thing to work. That’s anti-freedom, anti-self-determination. The bankers are substituting themselves for elected officials. Germany gets to elect Merkel, France gets to elect Sarkozy or Hollande, America gets to elect Obama, but these Masters of the Universe override them.

The EU was sold as a marketing organization. What a lie.  

Every move by the central bankers to strengthen their organizations over Europe is bad for the people. These people are not civic statesmen; they are, as Professor Carroll Quigley dubbed them, international bankers. The key to their success in the EU and US is control and manipulation of the money systems of nations.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 08:51 | 5645310 Wahooo
Wahooo's picture

I get all that. But I think many of us Americans just don't see a smooth transition back to a local/state-run republic from the federal oligarchy-monarchy we currently have. Just look at any of the "leaders" in either political party - they are all the same. You think we are going to unseat the two major political parties without violence and chaos breaking out somewhere? In Europe it's religion v. secular (muzzies on the loose). In America it will be fed-up people against feudal lords, a bunch of Robin Hoods all over the place until serious revolution is lit. In terms of our current political structure, there is no hope and there is no change.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 09:01 | 5645322 Dickweed Wang
Dickweed Wang's picture

The US Government seems to going all out to provoke war with Russia, what good are survival skills and a couple of bars of gold when the H bombs go off?

You could pound the gold into foil to make a radiation proof poncho . . . .

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 09:33 | 5645358 pupdog1
pupdog1's picture

meritocracy -> aristocracy -> absolute monarch

 

No! We freely elect our multi-generational inbred royalty!

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 03:54 | 5645121 AwkwardReader
AwkwardReader's picture

I have 4 fireplaces and a burn pit. I use them regularly. The Sheriff of Jefferson County Indiana doesn't seem to care, so the White House, EPA and all of Congress can kiss my motherfucking ass. I'll be burning wood tomorrow. Fuck you. Have a nice day.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 08:58 | 5645318 Dickweed Wang
Dickweed Wang's picture

Yeah, let's see those assholes from the EPA go out into the outback of Alaska in the middle of winter and tell one of those good 'ol boys to scrap their wood-burning stove.  The EPA guy will be feeding the local grizzly and/or wolf pack in no time flat if that ever happens.  You can probably add any rural state/county to the list along with Alaska.  Just change the type of local carnivorous wild-life to fit . . . . .

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 11:54 | 5645609 petroglyph
petroglyph's picture

Most of the bears are asleep in winter

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 14:17 | 5645940 Kprime
Kprime's picture

hmmmm,  bears are green.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 20:17 | 5646929 Dickweed Wang
Dickweed Wang's picture

Most of the bears are asleep in winter.

Well wake the fuckers up then . . . . THE EPA GUY IS COMING!!!! (Yum)

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 04:03 | 5645126 steveo77
steveo77's picture

There are those that depend on your dependency!

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 04:27 | 5645150 trader1
Sat, 01/10/2015 - 05:17 | 5645164 Rakshas
Rakshas's picture

Once upon a time, America was the land of the free and the home of the brave,.....

When exactly was that.... again...... another bullshit line coined by some politician somewhere to get us into a scrap with some poor bastard that had something that the banksters wanted, you can be sure if you have something there is always some fuckwit out there trying to find a way to take it from you.

Home of the brave my ass...... if we even believed that for a second there would be 20 million corpses in the streets with a copy of the constitution nailed to thier heads as fair warning to the next bunch of welfare kleptocrats that would aspire to be king 

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 06:04 | 5645192 Panic Mode
Panic Mode's picture

Now, America is the land of free LUNCH

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 06:55 | 5645229 CaptainMoonlight
CaptainMoonlight's picture

Burning some extra woody logs in my woodstove right now. 

Come and try to take it. See how many bullet holes you are carried out of here with.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 07:21 | 5645246 BlackVoid
BlackVoid's picture

You are collapsing.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 08:04 | 5645267 grekko
grekko's picture

They have to crack down on preppers.  The elite don't want self reliant, critical thinking people around after they pull the plug.  They only need a certain amount of sheep. Smart people like that could be a serious threat to them.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 08:21 | 5645280 JR
JR's picture

Government busybodies run around protecting the consumers of oversized breakfast-cereal boxes and woodburning stoves, but what about protecting, as Ayn Rand points out, the consumers of education?

The theme of U.S. State education is clear: “They attack the intellect and proclaim their hatred of reason—the rest is gush and slush. Anyone who delivers a helpless child into their hands does so because he shares their motives. Mistakes of this size are not made innocently.”

In short, the purpose of U.S. State and media “education” is to destroy the use of the American mind.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 08:44 | 5645304 Dickweed Wang
Dickweed Wang's picture

Don't forget that one of the main purposes of modern education is to indoctrinate and to teach the pupils to believe that "accepted" concepts are the same thing as the truth (see anthropomorphic "global warming" as an example).

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 08:24 | 5645285 Powder
Powder's picture

If you are not only collecting supplies for the end of civilization but you get excited thinking about it, you just might be a prepper.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 08:38 | 5645299 Dickweed Wang
Dickweed Wang's picture

Everyone involved in "prepping" talks repeatedly about the coming "collapse". I would submit that the collapse already has started and began around the 2007-2009 time frame.  What I see is something like a "boiling frog collapse" - which would seem to suit the assholes who think they're in charge just fine (I can't stomach calling those criminals the "Powers that Be" or the "elite" - Fuck Them!!). 

This kind of slow motion collapse would allow them to do things like:

  • Drive the [paper] price of gold down so they can scoop it up on the cheap as people bail out due to the dropping/low prices
  • Get laws passed to protect their investments in case of a major loss
  • Develop and stock their retreats
  • Foment and fund various conflicts to draw attention away from the financial problems that are ongoing and getting worse
  • Steal gold from the countries involved in said conflicts
  • Get the police armed and ready to protect them and their assets when people finally get to the breaking point and wake up enough to come after them or their companies
  • etc.

Once they have totally bled the system (and the people) dry then the fun will really start as that will signal the end of the collapse and the start of _____________????  You fill in the blank there . . . . .

 

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 09:31 | 5645355 css1971
css1971's picture

I have to agree. The collapse started 2005 and will progress for the next 50-100 years. The idea that everything will stop immediately is incorrect that is not how empires collapse. They do so from within, bit by bit.

The collapse of the Roman empire took 200 years. Followed by the "dark ages".

 

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 09:42 | 5645372 Dickweed Wang
Dickweed Wang's picture

This time though the whole process is going to take something like 10-20 years - not 50-100 years.  I imagine if the Romans had the kind of technology available to them that we have today (the internet for example) their collapse would not have taken as long as it did.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 14:20 | 5645943 stant
stant's picture

Rome collapsed 8 yrs after its peak

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 20:12 | 5646922 Dickweed Wang
Dickweed Wang's picture

Oh, I forgot THEY DID have broadband back then . . . . .

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 10:10 | 5645417 GreatUncle
GreatUncle's picture

Far more people on the planet remove all the rules with food and water scarce the population will drop substantially in months.

In Roman times a far smaller population you could wander off into the wilds and forage food & water to keep you going far longer because NOBODY ELSE HAS EATEN IT FIRST.

TBH eating well cooked humans makes more sense and plenty to go round in the early stages.

Or are we so different from sheep, cattle etc. ?

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 11:53 | 5645610 RabbitOne
RabbitOne's picture

Rome is a great reference to use. The number of similarities between Rome’s collapse and ours today’s is unparalleled in history. The one point you make about this taking 50-100 years is what many will disagree you with about. I give you the point that Rome’s fall to the barbarians was slow and tedious. However, we now live in the age of ISIS and electronics where it may be only minutes before you know who your next master is going to be. For many Obama was the beginning of our “dark ages” (no pun intended…well maybe a little…).  

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 11:39 | 5645577 RabbitOne
RabbitOne's picture

You are close in your rhetoric. Prepper’s do not for the most part talk about what might happen in the coming SHTF collapse. That is more for ZH. What prepper’s talk most about is “…are you prepared today if the SHTF…”.  

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:04 | 5645641 Dickweed Wang
Dickweed Wang's picture

You've basically proved my point with your statement "what might happen in the coming SHTF collapse".  The collapse IS in progress and won't get to the SHTF stage until the very end - if ever.

Rhetoric??? I don't get you there pal. ZH has an extremely widespread format for both the articles and the comments so I'm not sure why you would want to try to pigeon-hole someone, or a group, by saying things along the lines of "preppers do this . . . . " or "that's more for ZH" - like there's no "prepper" types (god I hate stereo-typical labels like that!!!) posting to this site. If you were to look at my preparations for "whatever" I think you would definitely put me into the "prepper" class and I am not ashamed of that in the least.  I just don't spend a ton of time obsessing about it, unlike many in that crowd.  IMHO there are way too may out there feeding off the gloom and doom/fear porn "the end is coming soon" schtick and I for one don't believe it is going to go down like that.  It's going to (and already is) going to happen in slow motion - relatively speaking.

Peace man, we're all in this together.

Sun, 01/11/2015 - 14:09 | 5648567 SameAsItEverWas
SameAsItEverWas's picture

It's going to (and already is) going to happen in slow motion - relatively speaking.

Yes. What's happening now is a relatively gradual process of death and decay just as the process of growth preceding it was likewise gradual and moved in fits and starts.

But what seems to have "started" on one day or month in one place to a particular observer is surely a very different picture than that seen by others, who might be as close as next-door neighbors.

I've noticed that people who are of an introverted nature and solitary habits with few close friends and therefore spend almost their entire waking time alone in thought as if they could be a monk in a monastery even in the midst of a metro area ... those people such as myself probably saw this change much earlier than others who might not see anything happening as of yet.

I happen to live in a place which has always been in the vanguard of freethinkers, the Land of Enchantment, yet even here the only people who I might encounter in daily life who are aware of our society's collapse are themselves homeless.  Normalcy Bias is so strong a factor that people who take for granted a roof over their head and food to eat are completely unable to comprehend the possibility that all the things they take for granted are not guaranteed to be there forever.

I've found that having children, or having a livelihood that depends on children such as the "educational system" is an almost perfect predictor of social blindness because what well-meaning person would doom their children to grow up in a world collapsing all around them?

 

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 09:28 | 5645352 css1971
css1971's picture

You guys got to understand you aren't citizens. You are livestock.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 10:39 | 5645467 RabbitOne
RabbitOne's picture

Yes...The government wolves call us Sheeple..

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 10:01 | 5645402 GreatUncle
GreatUncle's picture

Feel sorry for preppers they live under the illusion that land they are standing on they can hold no matter how many bullets they own.

Farcical when an armed mob of sufficient numbers will overrun a static position. Choice should be nomadic and geurilla tactics because you have two enemies in a social collapse the mob and government mercs looking to take what you have.

So be fit and healthy, able to move quickly should be the most desirable traits.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 10:46 | 5645484 RabbitOne
RabbitOne's picture

Go to any Prepper site and see you are wrong…. The main topic is the Bug out bag and bug-out vehicle. Next is urban warfare. It is not unusual to see 150 pages per thread. If you live in an urban environment when the SHTF with a government collapse we all know the 100 million on welfare will be very hungry and thirsty…  

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:24 | 5645681 Brutlstrudl
Brutlstrudl's picture

try it with a family of 5.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 10:24 | 5645439 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

I live in central Florida.  I have endured circumstances where municipal water supplies failed and power outages lasted a couple of weeks. Cell towers were down and law enforcement had no gasoline. 

 

Consequently we are prepared for such eventualities.  The rest of you may do as you wish.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 10:36 | 5645459 RabbitOne
RabbitOne's picture

I say Molon Labe. My wife and I, who are retired, are rebuilding our cabin on a northern Michigan lake. Several years back one of the first things we decided to replace is our old Franklin stove. We realized it did not provide the heat in the cool spring and fall weather.

When I asked our year round savvy wood burning old neighbor his recommendations he surprised me by saying “…I’d buy that stove you’re look’in at today. What we hear is the fed’s going to regulate them like cars. The one you want today may be gone tomorrow…” We did as our neighbor said and a year later we heard our model is out of production and no longer meets EPA guidelines. That is sad. The new model burns half the logs the old Franklin did. Screw’um…   

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 11:56 | 5645618 TheAnswerIs42
TheAnswerIs42's picture

I've always wondered about the EPA "guidelines" for woodstoves. We own a Vermont Castings Vigilant, built in 1978, a large hunk of iron.

Also have access to an air quality meter and put the probe into the flue. When I run the stove normally, that is around 800 F flue temp, I get the equivalent of their particulate limit.

The point being, there is nothing inherently wrong with these stoves if they are installed and used properly.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 10:50 | 5645490 Moccasin
Moccasin's picture

I will continue to ignore the federal government and its laws. What choice do I have? Survival is revolutionary.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 10:51 | 5645495 homiegot
homiegot's picture

I thankful everyday that I live in Texas.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 11:06 | 5645524 NoTTD
NoTTD's picture

Think you own your home?

Try not paying your rent (state & local RE taxes) and see how long that lasts.

 

Think you own your car?

Try not paying your rent (state and local registration and license) and see who that works out.

 

Etc., etc., ad nauseum.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 23:19 | 5647389 edifice
edifice's picture

Car is a little different... You can own the car, but you can't drive it, if you don't pay taxes.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 11:18 | 5645539 yellowsub
yellowsub's picture

And Obama allows the EPA to increase the safe levels of radiation in CA since Fukishima...

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 11:22 | 5645549 sheikurbootie
sheikurbootie's picture

Bullshit!

Robin Speronis wasn't "living off the grid", she was STEALING city services.  I remember this article from years ago.  She was a former real estate agent who stole around $100,000.  Robin stopped paying her bills -including her mortgage and stole city water until they shut it off.  She continously turned the meter back on and when finally locked, she used rain barrels.  She continued to use the sewer for free.  When the city blocked she would pour it into the sewer at the street. 

THIS FREELOADER LIVED IN A SUBDIVISION.  That's not quite off the grid.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 11:41 | 5645575 rejected
rejected's picture

Well, not exactly so when getting the "rest of the story"

Here is an extract from an article concerning Mrs. Speronis:

----In a new home off Del Prado Boulevard, which she bought from a friend, Speronis removed and sold the oven, refrigerator, and air conditioning units, even the ducts. The house was already off the electrical grid. An earlier resident had been stealing municipal power, and the city had cut the lines and removed the meters. Speronis subsisted primarily on a year’s supply of dried and canned food she’d bought while she had the RV. She drank and bathed in rainwater, filling a four-gallon, solar-heated camp shower. Her only connection to city services was the sewer: She flushed waste down the toilet, again with rainwater. “I can go weeks or a month without spending a penny,” she says.----

EDIT-----Then they filed a complaint against her with the Florida Department of Health, alleging that she was creating a health hazard by spreading her waste on the lawn. The charge was untrue. Speronis used a camp toilet with detachable bags that she tossed into the city garbage system—which was a code violation, but not one the city had alleged.---

For those not in the gossip mood, try:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-10/off-the-grid-in-florida-...

 

 

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:02 | 5645635 sheikurbootie
sheikurbootie's picture

No, it's exactly.  She a fucking thief and crazy lying bitch.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/oddnews/%E2%80%98pure-evil%E2%80%99--city-ca...

Also discussed at the special hearing was the fact that Speronis had been using the sewer system for the past year yet not paying for the service amassing a past due bill in the thousands. After her testimony admitting that she had used the service without paying for it, the city decided to cap the sewer line. Connie Barron, Cape Coral spokesperson told The News-Press, “She also gave clear indications she does not intend to pay for this service but intends to continue to use the system. We really had no choice but to cap the sewer.”

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:30 | 5645693 rejected
rejected's picture

One year of "services" equal thousands of dollars. Do they issue gold plated toilet seats in Cape Coral? When you look into it most of the charges were dropped. She was charged with cruelty to animals and jailed  almost incommunicado for over a month.Released after charges dropped and her dog returned to her in worse shape than when taken.

http://www.abc-7.com/story/25801934/charges-dropped-against-off-the-grid...

From the Lee County Supervisor:

---he manager of Lee County, which encompasses Cape Coral, e-mailed Speronis an apology of sorts: “I’m hopeful you will not judge the entire Lee County organization based on your experience with our Animal Services department. … We hope that you, Faith and Suzie are doing well.” That said, the conflict with the city will surely continue. For now, Speronis is home, off the grid, and outside the law.---

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-10/off-the-grid-in-florida-...

If the County was seriously concerned about the health and welfare of it's flock, why cut off the sewer? How much money did the city pay to have this done? How much taxpayer funds was spent on all the litigation? Apparently most of the neighbors (if any) were not complaining. The local McD's allowed her to us the restroom.

You state "She a fucking thief and crazy lying bitch"

Sorry, most of the lying was done by the city prosecutors and code officials. The state dropped charges and the county apologised.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 11:57 | 5645615 sheikurbootie
sheikurbootie's picture

Thief, not to be trusted.

Tried to steal a condo from a friend through forgery.

http://archive.news-press.com/article/20140124/NEWS0101/301240027/Power-...

Speronis sold Keegan the first home she bought in Cape Coral before she had her real estate license revoked in 2012. The judge found her guilty of larceny and sentenced her to 10 years probation. One complaint said Speronis didn’t return $30,000 following a failed sale. Keegan believes anything Speronis did was for love of her sick spouse.

http://www.cape-coral-daily-breeze.com/page/content.detail/id/525311.html

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/oddnews/%E2%80%98pure-evil%E2%80%99--city-ca...

 

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:19 | 5645672 Bangalore Torpedo
Bangalore Torpedo's picture

Always 2 sides to any story!

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 11:42 | 5645582 jack stephan
jack stephan's picture

If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let 'em go, because, man, they're gone.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:01 | 5645634 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

"There are approximately 3 million preppers"

 

Good to know the controllers aren't omniscient.

They are low in their estimates by a factor of ten.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:21 | 5645802 Baa baa
Baa baa's picture

Certainly a part of the prepper's agenda is paying more than a little attention to keeping activities as quiet as possible. In other words, most don't tell what they are doing.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:12 | 5645652 Baby Eating Dingo22
Baby Eating Dingo22's picture

Campfires will soon require 45 pages of EPA application permit with $250 fee.

Expect Girl Scout cookies prices to rise 10fold

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:17 | 5645661 muleskinner
muleskinner's picture

Think, if you can.

Millions of dumbass Europeons boarded a boat, traveled to America and stole all of the land that the indigenous peoples used to sustain themselves, claimed it all for some godly reason and began to extirpate the natives, the natives were no longer welcome in their own country.  Those dipshit Euros just think it is theirs but never paid a nickel for it all.  Bought land from the French to finance Napoleon's military fiascos and Geronimo had to put up with those stupid white skinned knuckleheads.

Drove the natives from the eastern seaboard west, shipped in people from Africa to work for free until the day they died and then bought some more after that.

Slave trade flourished, buy some black humans to be slaving away all day long and form an army to drive out the natives, the Trail of Beers from Georgia to Oklahoma, President Jackson's Indian Removal Act got the job done.

Here's an idea, go back to Europe and give back the land to the original owners.

Of course, the Cherokee drug along the slaves they owned and didn't sell them before they left.  The Choctaw were runaway slave hunters who made a good living tracking down those no good bums with black skin who didn't want to work their entire lives for nothing.

Then in June of 1876 over in Montana at Little Big Horn, General Custer thought he would just ride in and kill him some of the useless no good indians, but no, he was filled with arrows until he looked like a porcupine.  

On July 4, 1876, one hundred years of American Independence, the mood was grim, those crazy indians out in Montana decided that freedom was better than being hunted down like dogs on a daily basis.

The nitwit Europeons should go back to Europe and hunt gypsies for fun and leave America alone.  Play Charles Whitman or Charlie Manson in the backwoods of Romania or someplace where it feels like home again.  Had enough of those crazy white dumbasses who think a few acres of land in America belongs to them.  Find some Jews to persecute for a few decades and leave the native Americans alone, for Christ's sake.

Stupid wacko white skinned humans are just plain dumb, they don't think, just a bunch of flag waving, gun toting stupid shits who don't know if they are afoot or horseback.  Go back home to the fatherland and fight with the Russians.  Leave America alone.  Or, if you are a black white man who once owned slaves too, go back to Africa and settle in where you once belonged.

Good Lord.

The US gov calls them preppers, they're just another group of clueless numbskulls.

 

 

 

 

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:19 | 5645668 Bangalore Torpedo
Bangalore Torpedo's picture

Fuck the indigenous. Man's inhumanity to man is a never ending story. Get over it.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:28 | 5645687 Hylandr
Hylandr's picture

And like the porch monkeys you think your owed something. How about getting off the gov tit...!

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:43 | 5645849 arby63
arby63's picture

He can't. Too comfy. Probably never skinned a mule or any other animal. Maybe "skimmed" a few taxpayer bucks though.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:39 | 5645838 arby63
arby63's picture

And your intellect just shows through clearly. Did the natives just spawn from the earth in North America? Where did they come from? Who did they face? Was it free perhaps because the earth had a tiny population? Most likely.

Whitey did nothing special. He sought freedom. All men seek it in their souls. You are misguided at the very least.

Have you ever wondered about the claims of civilization being spawned in modern day Iraq? Have you asked yourself this question: If that culture had a head start of THOUSANDS of years, why do they need Whitey to drill their oil? Hmm.

Why is Whitey the problem. Everyone else had a supposed head start of thousands of years.

Give us your take.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 17:54 | 5646560 TeethVillage88s
TeethVillage88s's picture

Traditional Native Americans = Preppers.
Traditional US Mountain Men = Preppers.
Traditional US Pioneers = Preppers.
Traditional US Farmers = Preppers.
Traditional Christian Monks & Druids = Preppers.

Roman Army, Alexander's Army, Charles the Great = Preppers.

US Military & NASA = Preppers.

Sun, 01/11/2015 - 15:36 | 5648842 Bumbu Sauce
Bumbu Sauce's picture

Please just die from infectious disease.  You deserve to.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:18 | 5645663 Bangalore Torpedo
Bangalore Torpedo's picture

We have nobody to blame but ourselves. God thought that the Israelites were insane to prefer a King over a systematic network of localized judges. Maybe one day, man will wake up and realize that a government monopoly is bad for your health.

http://mises.org/library/impossibility-limited-government-prospects-seco...

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:06 | 5645694 NoWayJose
NoWayJose's picture

This shows the need for OpSec. Go brag to the neighbors about your rainwater collection system or do a Doomsday Preppers show - and The Man will come get you. Run your collection system into your garage or a small storage shed and keep your mouth shut - no Man.

Disconnect from the grid and you pop up on the Man's computer. Stay connected, pay your $10 minimum connection fee each month, and the Man stays away.

Either have good OpSec or put up a neon sign on your property that says "I'm a Prepper".

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:37 | 5645702 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

I am all for high tech things including stoves.

These things always have all sorts of fine print, indicating that primary heating does not count.
Typical weekend ZH article.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:43 | 5645718 QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

The 405 Feeway near Seal Beach, CA is like 14 lanes wide and will be bumper-to-bumper traffic even today.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:18 | 5645790 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

You can have 30 lanes, but if 30 lanes empty into two lanes at the end you will still have traffic ^^ . . .

 

The only solution to traffic will be to build more cities with pre-planned roads.

Assuming population doubles soon , cities will not be a functional environment and most cities will empty out and be abandoned.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:56 | 5645885 STP
STP's picture

Go look at the CALTRANS site for traffic volume on the 405.  At Moraga Drive (Top of Mulholland), it's 78,000 cars an hour, EACH way!  Its even worse where you live!

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:01 | 5645763 Government need...
Government needs you to pay taxes's picture

As I (figuratively) look out my CA window and contemplate this article, I can see a wave of coal dust from China rolling across the water toward me.  My geiger counter has been chriping enthusiastically for monthly now (thanks Fukushima).

EPA . . . WINNING!

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:14 | 5645780 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

The biggest enemy of the United States is a non-dependent American who does not need to consume energy, food, or products from American corporations.

 

The united states (govt)  is the sum of its parts (corporations), corporate money flowing to politicians (which make up government) will not flow unless the corporations first extract the money from Americans.

 

Thus the very nature of government is to push dependence of Americans on corporations.

 

The corporation will employ you.

The corporation will feed you.

The corporation will clothe you.

The corporation will house you.

The corporation will bathe you.

The corporation will send you to war.

The corporation will dictate your very life.

And when you have outlived your usefulness to the corporation you will be discarded.

 

The goal of government and corporations is to replace god.

There may even be a day where you pray to the corporation, and pledge allegiance to it every morning.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:37 | 5645837 Karaio
Karaio's picture

Preppers are stupid, are as full of pregnant sheep milk.

The only trade that can succeed in a crisis situation is bar and whorehouse (brothel).

hehe.

Sun, 01/11/2015 - 15:33 | 5648828 Bumbu Sauce
Bumbu Sauce's picture

Thanks for that view from your favella.

Now crank up your baile funk and grab some bozunda bitch.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 14:42 | 5645992 Dragon HAwk
Dragon HAwk's picture

I have a small wood stove, still in the crate I bought it in, and the piping to connect it to my Chimney in place of my oil furnace ( emergency only )  i figure by the time i need it, there won't be any EPA.. or as the saying goes, they will have their hands  full with a lot more important issues. no wood remember you can soak books  old shoes pieces of carpet in old motor oil etc and burn them. plastic as well. were talking survival, not EPA mandates here people.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 17:57 | 5646566 TeethVillage88s
TeethVillage88s's picture

Check out a Rocket stove, many types, many images on the Web.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_stove

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 15:39 | 5646137 xizang777
xizang777's picture

Ha!  There's a way to out-flank all that nonsense:   But a boat!   Most cruising sailboats and many houseboats are built to be self-sufficient:  These self contained boats have solar panels for keeping batteries below decks charged, which power 12-volt and 120-volt AC systems.   On-board watermakers draw in sea water and push it through reverse-osmosis 'filters' to make pure and safe clean drinking water.  If you don't like your view or the neighbors, you can easily move.  You have the entire world to travel by boat.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 17:42 | 5646536 TeethVillage88s
TeethVillage88s's picture

Yeah, but we hate Marina Costs, fuel costs at Marinas, and the little stores there abouts are expensive too.

- I guess you are talking about just Anchoring off some coasts or Islands, they study the charts, get advise on more safe harbors, the weather, good places to do repairs, keeping this all logged some place

- But many places don't like Fire arms on ocean or fresh water boats... maybe you stay near your own state or anchor on the side of the river of your state

- Are Shark Guns permitted by US Coast Guard, like 357 Mag, or something like that?

- Probably if you have gold & Silver Bullion on board the boat, fire arms, money, you have to be dame sure you aren't near the USA at all... plus DEA patrols the Caribbean and Central & South America... So no money and Bullion on the Boat???

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 18:27 | 5646634 Inbetween is pain
Inbetween is pain's picture

This article is so full of shit.  Just manufactured hype.  Reminds me of the examples that Fox News shows every year to prove that there's a War on Christmas.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 20:30 | 5646951 lordkoos
lordkoos's picture

The agricultural and ranching valley where I live becomes totally polluted from wood smoke whenever there is an inversion (fairly often in the winter).  This county has the worst air quality in the state even though it's 25th in terms of population.  So I'm all for better fucking wood stoves.

And the not-vaccinating-your-kids bullshit is a public health hazard.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 20:30 | 5646980 Automatic Choke
Automatic Choke's picture

Silly me, I thought the title said "Preppies", and I was trying to figure out what the gov't had against prep school idiots......

Sun, 01/11/2015 - 19:24 | 5649522 TheFulishBastid
TheFulishBastid's picture

Mong that fear! Mong it hard!

 

I call BullShit!

 

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