This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
The REAL Greek Negotiations: Situation Is “Berserk", "There Is No Plan", "Greeks Digging Own Graves"
Forget any conciliation: what is going on behind the scenes a day ahead of the Eurogroup meeting is nothing short of disaster.
“The Greeks are digging their own graves,” warns one EU official, according to MNI, with another exclaiming the Greek plan as “hopeless” and added “how can you have a plan when you make no payment obligation till the autumn and then you probably scrap that.” Simply put, speaking on condition of anonymity, an EU official described the situation as “berserk” adding “there is no plan.”
As MNI reports, EU officials are "infuriated" by 'wildly misleading' Greek claims...
The carefully orchestrated dance between the new Greek government and its European creditors appeared to crack Tuesday, with top Brussels officials infuriated by what they see as wildly misleading claims coming from Athens.
...
A senior European official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, described the situation as “berserk” and said, “there is no plan.”
...
“The Greeks are digging their own graves,” the EU official said.
At the start of the Tuesday, Greece floated its latest funding plan via press leaks, including to the Kathimerini newspaper, proposing a bridge financing programme that would lead to a “new deal” with creditors from September onwards.
There were reportedly four parts to the new deal: 30% of the existing memorandum with the Troika will be cancelled and replaced with 10 new reforms agreed with the OECD; Greece’s primary surplus target would be cut from 3% of GDP this year to 1.49%; Greek debt would be reduced via an already announced swap plan; and the “humanitarian crisis” would be alleviated via policies announced by Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras Sunday.
...
The first official described the plan as “hopeless” and added “how can you have a plan when you make no payment obligation till the autumn and then you probably scrap that.”
An exchange between the new Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis and Europe’s representatives, Thomas Wieser and Declan Costello, on Sunday was not successful, according to a source with knowledge of the encounter. The source said the Greek side gave the impression that if the Eurogroup did not agree with its stance, then the creditors could “go to hell.”
...
“For the Eurogroup to just agree new liquidity puts an awful lot of faith in a new government, without knowing what’s planned,” he said. “The ECB has stopped support, the EFSF and ESM need programmes and bilateral loans would be hard to pass domestically.”
And finally...
Meanwhile, the only advisor to the new Greek government, the investment bank Lazard, is not seen as playing a positive role by the EU side to date.
One EU official described the Lazard bankers as “incompetent” and “counterproductive.”
Compromise?
Meanwhile, we may have just hit peak trial balloons. Too bad the ECB can't monetize those when it runs out of Bunds to buy.
»
- 42736 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -
Independant? Since when?
Bankers get unconditional bailouts.
Why not Greece?
Neither should! At some point the 'extorted' tax paying voter will wake up! Hopefully before its too late!
Nobody should get an unconditional bailout. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Remember that at the end of the day somebody ends up picking up the tab.
Lend me $10 so I can pay you back that $5 I owe you.
Give me 10 bucks and I'll schedule a meeting for how we can renegotiate that $5 you forced me to borrow against my will.
A grexit is priced in. Time to buy shares of fracking companies and Kim Kardashian computer games.
The sooner the EU and Germany get over themselves and admit their Greek 'loans' were never going to pay off, the better.
Obviously this was a bad marriage from the start...thank God there were no children. Get an annulment and go your own ways...
The EU is starting to sound like some weird, obsessive stalker who just refuses to believe it's over. Yeah, Greece may have 'played' you to an extent, but you had an agenda too. You handed the silly bitch your credit card, and she went shopping...write it off as a stupid decision and get on with your life. Be glad she's not getting half of everything in the divorce settlement. (Yes, EU...it COULD be worse, much worse..)
You BOTH fucked up. Now end the damn thing already, it's OVER, and everyone is sick of all the drama.
So, how does one remove a small portion of rubber from a hugely overinflated balloon without blowing it to bits?
By allowing it to deflate...yes, the balloon is still damaged, but it hasn't exploded, so can be repaired.
Try to remove it at full inflation, and you have total destruction, with no hope of repair. You'll need a whole new balloon.
It's all noise, just look at Apple at all time highs and the dow up 100 points. everything is purfect!
As I am shallow arrow up for tits.
Yet another great example how inherently evil, corrupt, greedy, slothful & heartless Socialism always is!
This threat uses an Adobe vulnerability to download and run files on your PC, including malware.
It runs when you visit a malicious or hacked website and you have a vulnerable version of Adobe Flash Player.
The following versions of Adobe Flash Player are vulnerable:
If you visit a webpage containing this threat and your PC has a vulnerable version of Flash installed, this threat can download and run other malware.
After notifying ZH, they emailed me back:
It is a java script hosted by an google adsense ad, which we have zero control over. We have notified Google: if they refuse to fix it, there is nothing we can do.
Use Firefox with ad block should at least prevent the virus from having access to the browser
"how can you have a plan when you make no payment obligation till the autumn and then you probably scrap that.”
With ZIRP and NIRP - the ECB and Fed plans is that the big banks have no payment obligations for TEN YEARS!
Greek bailout near
Greece moving closer to bailout compromise, before…
Eurogroup chairman Jeroen Dijsselbloem on Tuesday extended an olive branch to Athens a day ahead of a crucial meeting to discuss the stand-off over Greece's bailout, saying he was "extremely willing" to work for a solution.
and:
Greece may turn to Russia or China for financial help -…
latest:
http://tersee.com/#!q=greece&t=text
When we think about it, this whole Greek/EU mess is archetypal of the debt mess the whole world is chocking on...
The path forward is NOT through hardline creditors, nor is it through endless foot dragging about new "deals" that themselves amount to nothing more than another soon-defaulted-upon agreement. Real lives in both spheres are in jeopardy, and time is not a friend in this instance.
The west destroyed what was left of a very delicate postwar economic structure with its bonsai rush to globalize the east. It not only wanted business partners instead of battlefield combatants, but it also wanted to build escalating profits while leveraging very cheap Asian labor. Things on that side of the equation have worked out fairly well. At least...initially.
Today, China, and other beneficiaries of western livelihoods, are themselves suffocating on mountains of dumb debt, attempting to offset the inevitable decline in western consumption that mindless outsourcing MUST produce...
The central problem of leaving nothing behind to keep western economies growing--except for mountains of debt to anesthtize the loss of backbone income stability in the western middle class--is why Greece, and so many others are where they are. They're mired in the consequences of a maddening rush into a shortsighted quest to grow profits in the short term, without the slightest concern for those consequences by western corporate chieftains...later on.
Everything we've experienced since the first major warning of inevitable economic disaster ahead (2008), has either involved more of the same credit/financial sham exacerbating the wrongheaded bonsai charge, or has sought to obfuscate, divert, or deny the stupidity of the original act.
The way out will be very painful, and a long time working through.
The solution, however, has nothing to do with repaying unaffordable debt on some unworkable and inane timetable.
It will involve the real creation of a new western economic system that seeks to rehab the middle class that insipd globalism destroyed. THAT must come first, or they'll be no debt unwind--short or long term--at all...
Creditors MUST come to THEIR senses too.
After all, given the source of the problem, and it's current intractability, what the hell did they expect?
m
See, the thing is, there are no creditors, hardline or otherwise. Okay, that's a slight exaggeration, but surely less than 1%, so I'm talking about the vast majority here.
And the vast, vast, vast majority of "funds" that have been lent by these so-called "creditors" is... what? It is fiat, fake, fraud, fiction, fantasy, fractional-reserve toilet-paper that was created out of thin air at zero cost.
Now is the time to face that very fundamental fact. Well over 99% of all loans were FICTION. They were FRAUD. They were FAKE.
THEY NEVER HAPPENED.
I'm sorry, but no honest or remotely ethical human being can justify the existence of one class of human being who can create unlimited, albeit fake and non-existent "funds", lend them to another, and live the life of the extremely wealthy from that activity. That is as evil and diabolical as evil can be, albeit less obvious than cutting off someone's head. But then again, long drawn out torture is more evil than instant death.
My point is, so-called "creditors" are not creditors... they are predators.
The appropriate solution is to grab everyone who has been involved in such practices, strip them of every penny of personal wealth, strip their fictitious entities (corporations) of every penny of corporate wealth, and return that wealth to everyone harmed by their atrocities... which is everyone who is not part of their scam (financial system and government). And make no mistake, the victims here are not just those who borrowed from these cretins, but everyone who had to purchase any good, for they had to bid against endless brainwashed morons who did not care how much they paid for goods and goodies, but only cared whether they could make the down payment or get another credit card to charge upon.
The ENTIRE fiat financial system must go... or humans are finished.
And since humans won't wake up and see what is obvious and right in front of their faces, the conclusion has to be, humans are finished. Humans are a failed species, lost in the absurd self-contradictory matrix created by diabolical human predators to enslave them, bleed them dry, and soon exterminate most of them... and maybe all.
So, the Bureaucrats From Brussels go apoplectic when the Greeks fail to kowtow. The Greeks are threatening to derail the plan for banksters and Brussels Bureaucrats to each own a Greek island complete with dacha and belly dancer.
I love it when a group of worthless parasites sticks the label of "worthless parasites" on another group and blames that other group for endangering access to the public trough.
Note to Germany : time to forgive the all debts to Greece because it was your fault to finance them in the first place and to rudely expect repayment!!!!
Oh yeah .... it is also now your responsibility to lend them moar dough that they might pay back when their ready .... but not too much $$$ that they can't pay back or it'l be yur fault again!
There's a plan B. And C. But they won't tell, because the € would Baumgartner. What's the plan on the top shelf? That's the question.
For now, my guess is Greece and, in due time, Spain will be abused to crush the €.
So Putin tells Greece if they default, Russia will lend them the dough to get going again.
Sanction that assholes.
"digging own grave" or digging out
Greece is irrelevent.
Fuck it. I want to see GREXIT and GERXIT, FRAXIT, ITAXIT, SPAXIT and so on ...
People need to wake up and realize they're just working for the banksters and the 1%. Nobody else is benefiting from the common currency which is manipulated every day and twice on Sundays.
It's not working, it will never work and it is just making lives more difficult for the 99%.
People matter more than fucking markets.
People are markets. Socialist markets are rigged! Thus people get trapped!
The EU doesn't seem to realize very well that if they want gas from Russia then they soon need to go and pick that up in Greece who will probably charge them a 'transportation fee'.
"I Smell Fear!" Not in Greece but in the European Union. Greece will be just fine. Look at Iceland! Nuff said.
Had this friend growing up who never had any money. So I always lent some to him thinking I would get paid back I would bitch about it to my friends and my parents. Then someone said something brilliant, STOP LENDING TO HIM it is your fault. I continued to do it because I enjoyed certain parts of our friendship yet I would still complain.
ECB, the money is gone. You lent it and they cannot pay it. It is over. Dont lend anymore and if you do, Dont expect a pay back. Obviously there is a reason WHY you continue to do it.
Hey, got a smoke?
The reality is they are not lending it to Greece, they are gifting it to the banksters. That's the fact.
Lots of bullshit bluster talk from the EU folks.
You've got to hand it to Tsipras et al for staying calm, cool, and collected.
Seems like Greeks are better chess and poker players than anyone knew?
“(A unified) ‘Europe’ is the result of plans. It is, in fact, a classic utopian project, a monument to the vanity of intellectuals, a programme whose inevitable destiny is failure: only the scale of the final damage done is in doubt.” —
Margaret Thatcher
The sooner they kick them out the faster the EU will recover.
Like the stock market. Get rid of your loosers and hold on to your winners.
Agreed! It gives the fanciful EU time to sort out their mess & recalibrate their strategy if they hope to survive!
Trade bloc of the future: all disenfranchised countries. Venezuela and the alienated OPEC members, economic renegades like Greece and states bordering the Gulf of Aden, the Big Three, and the PIIGS are about to fly MFers. Might I ask the brilliant minds of ZH to start with the nicknames? its about a year or two away so we might as well.
B.L.A.C.K H.O.L.E.S.
Go Iceland and arrest Lloyd Blankfein and Jamie Dimon.
I love the smell of their desperation in the morning. Smells like burnt toast and flat champagne.
The Greeks are tired of being stuck in Lodi.
I'm a poncing sanctimonious EU official and I'm here to make an announcement.
I am also not going to tell you my name because I'm important and therefore shall remain anonymous.
Fucking retarded sack of shit, has the brains of a diseased termite, thinking everything must go according to his pin hole size breadth of perception of how the world works.
I have to hand it to Syriza, Even I could not imagine the fucking retards at the EU could be that fucking stupid and retarded not to see that they never have, never will and never has had any intention in staying in the fucking corrupt cesspit when cunts like aforementioned EU official still drew breath.
Of course they will lead them on , every fucking day and I bet that every day they all go home and have a very large glass of ouzo and totally piss themselves laughing at the dumb fucks.
They are leaving, it was always thus, nothing has changed, and they judged the stupidity, the delusions, the insanity of every cretin in the EU to a T. And now they are seriously taking the piss and this wanker, this official comes out with his moronic bollox
Knowing full well they will get exactly what they want now, New drachma, no debt, no fucking morons telling them what to do and leave all the aforementioned fuckwit officials screaming in pain because their beloved EUSSR is about to get nuked.
I fucking love anarchy, especially if it leads to cunts like draggy and his poisonous minions handing from lampposts
The longer the Russian war against Ukraine continues, the more likely it is that President Vladimir Putin’s regime will collapse.
Despite Putin’s bluster, the authoritarian regime he has constructed is exceedingly brittle. At the center stands Putin; surrounding him, the power-hungry loyalists he has folded into his inner circle. Some, called the siloviki, belong to powerful institutions such as the secret police or the army. Others, formally affiliated with various government agencies, are loyal only to Putin. In such a system, sycophantism is rewarded above good governance, empire-building runs rampant, policy loses its effectiveness, and corruption becomes routine.
The neo-tsarist ideology of Russian imperialism, Orthodox revival, and anti-Western Slavophilism that Putin has constructed has limited appeal to the cynical men who help him run Russia. Therefore, Putin’s ability to retain their loyalty rests primarily on his control of the country’s financial resources. Thanks to the record-high energy prices that accompanied his assumption of power in 1999, Putin was able to personally purloin some $45 billion and still have enough money to raise the country’s standard of living, strengthen the Russian military, and keep his cronies happy. No longer. Oil prices have collapsed and are likely to stay low; Western sanctions are hitting hard; and the Russian economy is on the downswing.
Sooner or later Putin will be forced to make some cuts, but it is hard to know where that money will come from. Given the ongoing war in Ukraine and his anti-Western ideological crusade, reducing military funding will be unfeasible. And Putin’s popularity would take a serious hit if he were to roll back support to the lower classes. The only option, therefore, may be to stop his cronies from dipping into state coffers, even if doing so will alienate them.
For 15 years, Putin’s record of success won him enormous public support. He crushed the Chechen rebellion, presided over military reforms, built infrastructure, improved the lives of ordinary Russians, and regularly outwitted the West. And then, just after the Sochi Olympics, he blew it all. The Crimean annexation has been an unmitigated economic disaster. The Russian war in eastern Ukraine has killed Russians by the thousands. Ukraine, which was well on its way to becoming a Russian vassal state under former President Viktor Yanukovych, has turned against the Kremlin. The ruble, along with the Russian economy, is in free fall, as Western sanctions bite. Putin, Russia’s “Man of the Year,” is now routinely compared to Adolf Hitler.
Beyond his policy mistakes, Putin also has an image problem. Fifteen years ago, Putin could pass himself off as a charismatic leader who, despite his diminutive size, was man enough to chase down Chechen rebels—in his own words—“even in the outhouse.” That tough-guy image was essential to Putin, who claimed that he could reestablish Russia’s imperial glory and needed to look the part. Now 62 years old, Putin looks tired, his face distended, and it’s hard to imagine that the two leggy singers who once sang, “I want a man just like Putin,” would still feel that way today.
Putin knows he’s in a tough spot. He started the war in Ukraine, and now it’s up to him to bring about some satisfactory conclusion, even though it’s clear from his erratic behavior that he lacks a strategy. He has no way to crush Ukraine without unleashing a global conflict. He has no way to erode Ukraine’s economy without simultaneously destroying Russia’s. Ironically, the one thing Putin could do easily—declare victory in the Donbas and withdraw his troops—is off limits for him, not because it’s politically unfeasible (most Russians would be delighted to get out of this mess), but because his own cult of personality forbids him from blinking.
OUSTING THE PRESIDENT
All signs point to the eventual collapse of Putin’s regime.
Although 85 percent of Russians currently support the president, an Orange Revolution in Moscow—a city that has seen a series of mass anti-Putin demonstrations in the past few years—is not out of the question. Such a movement need not encompass the entire country to be effective. Demonstrations in the capital, like past displays of “people power” in Cairo, Kiev, and Manila, can effect regime change.
A coup d’état is another possibility. The siloviki, like all Praetorian guards, are a mixed blessing. They can keep him in power by crushing political opposition, but they can also stage a coup should they conclude that Putin’s policies are undermining their own security and wealth. Putin knows that he replaced Boris Yeltsin (and that Leonid Brezhnev replaced Nikita Khrushchev) in just this fashion.
Even if Putin is not ousted by popular revolution or by a coup, he will be crippled by unrest in Russia’s non-Russian regions. Much of the North Caucasus, for example, has already spun out of Moscow’s control, as the recent terrorist attacks in Chechnya and the continued violence in Ingushetia and Dagestan demonstrate. As the regime visibly decays and Putin loses his sheen, militant non-Russians may emulate Putin’s invocation of Russians’ right to self-determination in southeastern Ukraine and pursue their own separatist agendas—with mass protests when possible, and violence when necessary. The Crimean Tatars, whose frustration with increasingly oppressive Russian rule in their homeland is growing, could be the first to act out violently. The Volga Tatars and Bashkirs, both of whom have large reserves of oil in their regions, could easily follow, as they did in the 1990s, with demands for greater autonomy or independence.
RUSSIA AFTER PUTIN
Will Russia and the world be better off without Putin? Yes, but only if Putin’s successor ends the war and comes to a rapprochement with the West.
Putin’s successor, whenever he takes power, is likely to be a hardliner; even so, his first priority will have to be to clean the mess created by Putin. Chances are that the new president will be more inclined to end the war and more likely to adopt a conciliatory tone vis-à-vis the rest of the world.
If Putin’s successor is not a hardliner, those chances will be even better. This is a small but real possibility: Russia’s democrats might just be able to take control of the country at a time of chaos and instability, especially if they succeed in forging coalitions with the increasingly disgruntled Russians whose sons are dying in Ukraine and with non-Russian minorities, as Boris Yeltsin did in the waning days of the Soviet Union. Besides, if history is any indication, Russia’s next leader is anybody’s guess. The awful Lenin was succeeded by the dreadful Stalin, but Stalin was followed by the decent Khrushchev, who was replaced by the worse Brezhnev, who was succeeded by the good Gorbachev. And Gorbachev handed over power to the pretty good Yeltsin, who was ousted by the dreadful Putin.
In the meantime, the West should do all it can now to support Ukraine and encourage Putin to deescalate the war. The West can also limit the fallout from a possible regime collapse by supporting Russia’s neighbors—especially Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Ukraine—economically, diplomatically, and militarily. When the rotten Russian dam breaks, as it inevitably will, only strong and stable non-Russian states will be able to contain the flooding, shielding the rest of the world from Putin’s disastrous legacy of ruin.
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/142840/alexander-j-motyl/goodbye-...
"The longer the Russian war against Ukraine continues, the more likely it is that President Vladimir Putin’s regime will collapse."
LOL. I hear rumour that he's got a plan to invade Latvia and scoop up all the potatoes and trolls.
foreign affairs. my my right in the middle of the neo-con think tank propaganda.
you've really outdone yourself. i suggest you learn how to survive in the coming conflict you prescribe.
hopefully there are some people with common sense in your little backwater country.
you'll be the first to go. LMAO
Dream on, baby. Just keep drinking that Kool-Aid. Take the blue pill. Go back to dreaming the good old American Dream.
Is Latvian. Dreams not 'american' dream but impossible dream:
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/ec/ecdd2a363f46c7486ca65eec146730def8a9a592...
Using Foreign Afairs as a refernece is like using Brian Williams as one. Highly suspect. Check out the "Board" of Foreign Affairs.
If Europe had armies, there would be war right now.
Looking at the precdicions of the last years the new plan is nothing more than some adjustment to their utter failure to do a more realistic prediction. In fact, these rotten old man didn't move an inch on their deflation-theory obtained by the theories of Hayek and Brüning.
Thanks to Tyler for digging out this alternative view of the Greek/EU negotiations.
The Link I posted several times to http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2015/02/09/greeces-10-reforms-bridge-pr... was clearly misleading in that it gives the strong impression there is a deal on the table. Apparently not.
my negotiations with my wife about going greek are just as heated :)
the EU is sucking wind on this one.
they know it.
CN and RU are in the wings
tic toc EU
game is about over.
well you know "the plan" and all, print money from nothing, charge serfs interest, get paid for nothing forever, what could go wrong? when serfs run out of money to pay debt, print moar and charge more interest.
only problem is, a much "larger" portion of serfs seem to be waking up from the consumerist nightmare debt slavery cycle of shit. spells trouble for the pricks doesn't it....
As that miserable cunt Nuland said, "Fuck the EU"
Please permit me to repeat:
The most outrageous things the new Greek government is doing:
1. Threatening the Brussels Bureaucracy by endangering the United States of Europe project which is designed to remove sovereignty from each European state and give Brussels all-powerful status as the only sovereign in Europe;
2. Refusing to continue the Extend and Pretend game where the bankrupt nation keeps taking more advances to keep afloat while their debts keep increasing. Without Extend and Pretend, the bankruptcy of each of the PIIGS becomes obvious and the Euro project is put into jeopardy;
3. Raising the specter of other members of the PIIGS doing a Syriza;
4. Endangering several $Trillion in derivatives and threatening banksters with losses; and
5. Threatening to team up with Russia.
The more threatened the Eurocrats feel, the louder their squeals. The squeals are getting louder.
The consequences of Grexit are too serious for the EU to allow it. In addition to the immediate destabilization of the EU's tottering house of financial cards, Grexit threatens to make Greece as a non-EU state the new hub for natural gas delivery to southern Europe.
One of the greatest concerns of Europe is its energy supply, in particular its dependence upon natural gas from Russia.
The EU has been using 3 tactics against Russia in their energy war:
1. The plans to bring natural gas from non-Russian sources in Central Asia and the Middle East via the NABUCCO/TANAP pipeline system through Syria and Turkey;
2. The Third Energy Package which was intended to force Gazprom to hand over control, use, and part of the profits of the South Stream pipeline project to Brussels, and give Brussels control of all gas-price negotiations with Russia; and
3. Keeping Russia threatened with having to depend on their Ukraine pipelines for sales of gas to southern Europe. This was intended to force Russia to give Ukraine lower prices, forgive Ukraine's gas debts, and most importantly, play nice with Ukraine and the US/EU/NATO plan to take over Ukraine and use it as a threat to Russia.
NABUCCO/TANAP is moribund for lack of secure suppliers.
Then Putin diverted South Stream to Turkey and on to Turkey's border with Greece, removing the legal controls that the Third Energy Package gave Brussels, and emboldening Turkey to exert independence from the EU. Russia then announced that it will shut off the Ukraine pipelines once Turk Stream is up and running.
Putin then cheekily invited Greece to leave the EU and join the Eurasian Economic Union, and hinted at giving Greece bridge financing to leave the Euro.
If the Euro project falls apart, the artificially low exchange rate that it gives Germany will disappear and Germany's immense trade surplus will fall.
Expect the howls of outrage from Brussels and Germany to get louder.
No surprise. This deal is right out of the failed socialist playbook!
Extremely well presented Tinny. + 1Trillion.
Wolfgang Schäuble just explained: "Dann war es das eben"....this means: Grexit when Greece does not agree with the current co ditions.
Schäuble: "There won"t another bailout-package".
As we know our finance minister a little bit we can say with certainty: Schäuble is not playing. Not bluffing. He was already on the edge to kick out Greece in 2012. Then s time Mrs. Merkel will agree with him - there is no way for Tsirpas.
Laughing my butt off over the earlier reports. I mean, do you think some Greek debt holders may want to release their own news today as they try to dump their holdings? Duuh! Could probably serve up shit on a cracker and sell it as a new low sodium cavier.
The teenager screams I will leave the house IF you don't give me more money in the weekly allowance. The parent decides that their 21 year old brat needs to experience the real world. Parent says NO and teenager storms out of the house. Parent promptly replaces all the locks on the house.
Greeks have deficit spent their way to this impasse and like sullen teenagers are believing they not the parents are the center of the family. Looking over the terms demanded by the Greeks, Europe would be better off swallowing their pride without a spendthrift. You can't fix stupid.
Italy should be the next to eject IF they don't wise up to stop deficit spending.
Unlike Greece, the US prints its money and there are a lot of stupid people out there willing to buy worthless US bonds. The Greeks want in on that action. They are going to find out like Zimbabwe and Argentina did that no one is interested in buying bonds whose issuer has no interest in paying back at maturity.
At some point the foolish people of Greece will be forced to face the reality of the situation that you can't indefinitely have something for nothing at other people's expense. Politicians lie, get over it and throw them out. We got the same nonsense in the US, Obama lies to the naive telling them they will get free stuff because we will make someone else give it to us, just vote for me. You should know better that democracy is not a legalized system for mugging. The victims leave and the muggers starve.
The Greeks are digging their own graves!
Wow, how opposite from the truth.
Now we're supposed to believe that instantly having a gazillion euros of debt removed... somehow harms the Greek people. Hahahahahahaha! Right.
Now we're supposed to believe that NOT being able to pile on more debt... somehow harms the Greek people. Hahahahahahaha! Right. They need something to stop this habitual endless loop, and if they don't have the willpower (or willing government), then one huge benefit of default is... nobody will lend you money.
Now we're supposed to believe that having the majority of energy flow through your nation... somehow harms the Greek people. Hahahahahahaha! Right. Like, having the entire EU dependent upon your good will is some kind of horrible.
Now we're supposed to believe that stopping the fatally enormous quantity of funds being eternally sucked out of the pockets of the Greek people and into the banksters paws... somehow harms Greek people. Hahahahahahaha! Right. Like they don't have better things to do with their earnings than enrich banksters and their fellow co-conspirator co-predators.
-----
All this hysteria about how terrible life will be for the Greek people is, well, hysterically funny! Because anyone with half a brain can see, the only hope for the Greek people is to stop having the blood sucked from their veins by banksters.
100% DEFAULT.
EXIT THE EURO and EU.
SOFT ALLY WITH RUSSIA.
AND SWEAR OFF DEBT FOREVER.
And may the EU rest in pieces... many, many pieces.
Will the Greeks then produce enough to support themselves without sponging off the other countries of the EU?
They most certainly can. And, they will... IF... their sources of debt are cut off due to their default.
Seriously, think about it. You've seen what happens when they receive new loans, right? The pie charts have been published here on ZH. 92% or more of the loan amount doesn't even reach Greece, it is handed to those banks who are creditors for repayment of other debt.
So the answer to whether Greece can survive without those loans, the answer is...
THEY ALREADY ARE.
I mean, seriously! Think about it.
When these "new loans" arrive:
92% goes to banksters.
6% goes to Greek government.
2% goes to Greek people/taxpayers.
100% to be repaid by Greek people/taxpayers!
Nobody in their right mind would accept a loan like that, and nobody in their right mind would pretend such loans "help the Greek people". To claim that is just completely, flat-out insane.
And yet, banksters control the media, so most people believe all sorts of flat-out insane nonsense.
To claim that someone who only receives 8% of their loan somehow is "sponging" off anyone is totally disingenous.
Furthermore, to claim that someone who lends fiat, fake, fraud, fiction, fantasy, fractional-reserve nothingness created out of thin air at zero expense... should be paid back... is also totally disingenuous.
All those banksters live the life of the super-wealthy by FLAT OUT FRAUD.
If you believe in "equality", then if banksters can create fiat out of thin air at zero cost, then sorry, by simple "equality", so can anyone else. So let everyone create whatever currency they need out of thin air, and then we can talk. Otherwise, forget about it. FRAUD IS FRAUD.
-----
As a matter of ABSOLUTE FACT, human beings are more productive now than they ever have been in the history of mankind. For anyone to claim with a straight face that "the Greeks cannot produce enough to support themselves" is MASSIVELY DISINGENUOUS.
If you and others actually believe nonsense soundbites like that... in absolute contradiction to the absolute fact that I pointed out to you... then you need to take some time to find out WHY you can even hold such blatantly absurd notions. Ask yourself, what forces could possibly make so many people in a country with a favorable climate and situation, not be able to "support themselves"?
The answer is... and must be... human predators who suck off an enormous percentage of the production from those who produce. And so, all that needs to change for Greek people to live long and prosper is... TO STOP FEEDING HUMAN PREDATORS.
And stop accepting fiat, fake, fraud, fiction, fantasy... in currency, in soundbites, and in everything else that matters to human survival and fundamentals of basic life, health and basic comfort.
Beserk ? That's what traders who are losers yell when markets do no jive with their plays.
Nothing is beserk when you play in a fair game with those who could and should default against Predators.
C'mon spare us these leaky condoms.