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Schauble Proposes "5 Year Grexit With Humanitarian Support"
As we await the verdict on whether Greece will be in or out, here are the earlier comments from the Eurozone finance ministers and others attending the Eurogroup meeting, via Reuters:
GERMAN FINANCE MINISTER WOLFGANG SCHAEUBLE
- "We will have exceptionally difficult negotiations."
- "The problem is that that there was a situation at the end of the year that was very hopeful, despite all the scepticism of previous years, and that this was destroyed in an incredible way in the last months and hours.
- "We are dealing with financing gaps which exceed everything we have dealt with in the past."
- "We are talking about a completely new three-year programme."
LUXEMBOURG FINANCE MINISTER PIERRE GRAMEGNA
- "We, as Luxembourg, because we hold the EU presidency right now, are definitely ready to discuss debt restructuring, finalising is another issue."
SLOVAKIAN FINANCE MINISTER PETER KAZIMIR
- "I see a huge problem with DSA (debt sustainability analysis), so long-term sustainability of the Greek debt. So now we will see what the institutions will bring on the table, what kind of finances and we have to assess it... This package would be appropriate for the completion of the second programme, but I'm afraid this is not enough for the third programme, for the ESM programme."
EUROGROUP CHAIRMAN AND DUTCH FINANCE MINISTER JEROEN DIJSSELBLOEM
- "We are still far away. It looks quite complicated. On both content and the more complicated question of trust, even if it's all good on paper the question is whether it will get off the ground and will it happen. So I think we are facing a difficult negotiation."
- Will you talk about debt relief?
- "I don't know we will get to that."
- "There is still a lot of criticism on the proposal, reform side, fiscal side, and there is of course a major issue of trust. Can the Greek government be trusted to do what they are promising, to actually implement in coming weeks, months and years. I think those are the key issues that will be addressed today."
- (For Greeks to regain trust) "Well, they will have to listen to the ministers and the institutions first and see what improvements are needed. And they will have to show very very strong commitments to rebuild that trust."
FRENCH FINANCE MINISTER MICHEL SAPIN
- "Confidence has been ruined by every Greek government over many years which have sometimes made promises without making good on them at all. Today we need to have confidence again, to have certainty that decisions which are spoken of are decisions which are actually taken by the Greek government.
- On debt restructuring: "France has always said there is no taboo about the debt. We have the right to talk about the debt."
- We don't want there to be reduction in the nominal value of the debt because that is a red line for many of the member states in the Eurogroup.
- "France ... is a link, and we will play this linking role to the very end."
ITALIAN ECONOMY AND FINANCE PIER CARLO PADOAN
- "I expect a long finance ministers meeting on Greece. It is not very easy but we will do all we can."
- "The purpose of this meeting is to kick off negotiations on ESM which is a medium-term, very demanding programme and we are all here with open minds to reach an OK, a green light to start negotiations. The government, the Greek Parliament and the Greek people are positive towards starting what is the beginning of a negotiation. It is not about striking a deal tonight."
MALTESE FINANCE MINISTER EDWARD SCICLUNA
- "This (Greek issue) has to be solved today because it is a question of coming up with this framework which gives assurance to the finance ministers."
IRISH FINANCE MINISTER MICHAEL NOONAN
- "The Greek paper was silent on banking. Obviously the Greek banks are in difficulty now and it's going to be hard to put them back on an even keel, so we need a full briefing on that. Secondly I said we needed a medium term sustainable programme. Sustainability depends a lot on whether the programme is sufficient to cause the Greek economy to grow and to create jobs... It is very hard to stimulate an economy when on the demand you are doing corrective work so they need more supply side initiatives which effectively means a lot of reform which doesn't seem to be built into the programme."
- "I think the trust is now being rebuilt in the relationship with Greece. I would hope that trust would continue to be rebuilt today. That's pretty important also."
EUROPEAN COMMISSION VICE-PRESIDENT VALDIS DOMBROVSKIS
- "It must be said that we are clearly making progress and the Greek government's proposal actually is pretty much along the lines of what the institutions' proposal was before the referendum. So clearly we see there is a willingness of the Greek to reach an agreement and also the vote in parliament showed that there is a parliamentary majority to move ahead with this programme."
- "What we should be discussing today is basically about giving a mandate to the European Commission in liaison with the ECB and in close cooperation with the IMF to start negotiations about this ESM programme."
AUSTRIAN FINANCE MINISTER HANS JOERG SCHELLING
- Asked about whether he was positive on a deal: "Yes and no. Of course it is a step ahead that Greece has finally delivered, surprisingly what was already agreed before and surprisingly after the referendum. What is missing are the details. The biggest item we have to talk about is what guarantees Greece can give to implement what has been agreed. We have seen for five years now that such lists are sent, but the implementing measures never happen."
DUTCH JUNIOR FINANCE MINISTER ERIC WIEBES
- "The Greeks have clearly made a step forward but at the same time we see that the institutions are critical of the plan, the missing specificities and they see that the plan is weaker in some areas than it should be. It is their suggestion to only start negotiations when these conditions are further filled in.
- At the same time, many governments, mine too, have serious concerns about the commitment of the Greek government and also the power of the implementation. That has been the weak point because after all, we are discussing a proposal from the Greek government that was fiercely rejected a week ago, and that is a serious concern.
- (On what the Greeks can do further) we have to discuss that. Clearly there has to be made a step that enables trust with all the financing parties. (What happens if there is no agreement tonight) That is basically up to the Greek government."
IMF MANAGING DIRECTOR CHRISTINE LAGARDE
- "I think we are here to make a lot more progress."
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC AFFAIRS COMMISSIONER PIERRE MOSCOVICI
"Since the start, the European Commission had the objective, that of the integrity of the euro. It was to keep a reformed Greece in the euro zone."
"I note that the Greek government has made significant gestures."
"We (the creditors) have said the Greek reform programme could constitute a basis for a new programme."
"Our general sentiment is that there need to be reforms, solid reforms, reforms appropriate to the Greek authorities and reforms that are implemented as soon as possible."
* * *
And here are the punchlines:
First the Finns:
- Finnish Parliament Committee Opposes Greek Aid Talks
- Greek proposals don’t warrant negotiations on new bailout, public broadcaster YLE says, citing unnamed sources.
- Finnish parliament’s Grand Committee adopted position regarding Greek bailout request on Saturday; stance won’t be published ahead of Eurogroup debate in Brussels, state secretary Olli-Pekka Heinonen told local media
- MP Paavo Arhinmaki, head of Left Alliance, told Helsingin Sanomat newspaper he left dissenting opinion at Grand Committee meeting; said Greek govt proposals “could be basis to start talks”
And now, Greek nemesis #1, Schauble via Bloomberg:
- SCHAEUBLE PROPOSES TIME-LIMITED `GREXIT': FAZ.
- SCHAEUBLE SUGGESTS 5-YR GREXIT, HUMANITARIAN SUPPORT: FAZ
More from German Focus, google translated:
The German Finance Ministry has communicated its negative assessment of the Greek proposals to other Euro countries on Saturday. "These proposals are missing centrally important areas of reform to modernize the country and to advance on the long term economic growth and sustainable development," it said in the one-sided position paper, which was present at the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung (FAS). Therefore they could "not be the basis for a completely new, three-year ESM program".
Instead, the Treasury took two paths in the eye that remained.
One way: Greece improved its proposals quickly and comprehensively, with the full support of Parliament. The Ministry suggested among other things that Greece shall transfer assets amounting to 50 billion euros to a trust fund, which it sells and thus removes debt.
Way two: With Athens is negotiating a "time out". It leaves the euro zone for at least five years and restructures its debt. However, it remains the EU Member and receives further "growth-enhancing, humanitarian and technical assistance," says the "FAS".
And here's Reuters:
Germany's Finance Ministry believes Greece's latest reform proposals do not go far enough and has suggested two alternative courses for Athens including a "timeout" from the euro zone, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung (FAS) reported.
"These proposals miss out important central reform areas to modernise the country and to bring economic growth and sustainable development over the long term," the FAS quoted the ministry as writing in a position paper.
Instead, the ministry set out two alternative courses for Greece. Under the first, Athens would improve its proposals quickly and transfer assets worth 50 billion euros ($56 billion) to a fund in order to pay down its debt.
Under the second scenario, Greece would take a "timeout" from the euro zone of at least five years and restructure its debt, while remaining a member of the European Union.
In other words, Germany just said kick Greece out, conditionally, for 5 years (it is not quite clear what Greece would use for currency in the meantime), quarantine it, and treat it as a third-world country until 2020. Somehow we doubt global stocks expected this outcome when they soared on Friday.
As expected, Greece quickly denied this:
- GREEK GOVT OFFICIAL SAYS GREXIT PLAN NOT DISCUSSED IN EUROGROUP
And at least one member of the anti-German/austerity axis chimed in as well:
- The idea of giving Greece a sabbatical from the euro area cannot be taken seriously, an EU official says in Brussels.
- It is legally not feasible, makes no economic sense and is not in line with political reality, official says
- It is time now for a serious discussion and solutions, not for reactivating academic, non-practical ideas, official says
- Official says euro suspension is old idea floated by German academic Hans-Werner Sinn
But with Germany making its semi-officially position known, and with the reality that Greece would essentially have to abdicate sovereignty to assure Europe that it will comply with any additional bailout conditions and further spending cut demands (of which there will be plenty), just what is the other "serious solution" alternative here?
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112 tons? I want their gold too. Wonder how big a haircut I can get against spot price.
Wolfgang Schaeuble's idea sounds good. It's pretty much the same technique that any functioning family would use to manage a member that has a chronic problem with being dishonest, unwilling to get a job, and embedded in a paid for living arrangement. The other members are going to have to minimize the damage the unproductive member causes. There is no reason for Greece to occupy one of the best rooms in the big house. Move them to a staff cottage on the grounds down by the barn.
Honesty is something unknown to Schauble. He says he wants Greece to repay its loans, but tries to stick it with conditions that will guarrantee that won't happen.
He's like Hitler when he said he had no territorial amibitions beyond the Sudetenland.
That's what you get when you ressign sovereignty. Looking at the European Union and the Eurozone, we can all see how globalisation - aka New World Order - looks like.
Schaubel likes to act tough because he thinks he is a Crips gangsta.
Contra Club opinion:http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/category/stockmans-corner/stockman... I love how the economic analysis on David Stockman's site always cuts through the stinking horshsit from American and European politicians that suck the big-fella.
As a backdrop to this theatre play...
How many Greek state assets are now owned by not-Greeks?
and
How many Greek state assets remain to be handed over as bail-out inducements/security or bought for pennies on the dollar by not-Greeks?
So failure to perform on one's promises has consequences?
Good question?
To answer it we must ask a few more. Who negotiated terms of the “promise”… who signed the promise… who took the proceeds… who is now obligated to pay the promise?
Answers to these questions will be quite different; which makes the debt invalid.
These, also, are not idle questions; Americans will soon have to address them.
See my comment at 15:45.
Split the Eurozone into two parts: North-Zone and South-Zone. The longer the realisation of this logik will take, the more money, time, competitiveness and trust will be burned.
I'm sure that the South-Zone will change it's position soon once they have to deal with Greece without German taxpayers.
Something for Greeks to look forward to. Just ask the Iraqis how well 'humanitarian' support worked out for them. During intermission, we can expect politicians to play each other and the sheeple to the hilt.
Just as the Jews how things went last time the Nazis were in charge.
The Zionist Jews are playing the role of Hitler in this war-the Palestinians are playing the Jews of WWll
When will they EVER learn?
My vote:
Kick the scumbag thieving socialist parasite scumbag greeks out of the EZ, let their economy crash HARD, and make an example of them for the other thieving socialist parasite scumbags in the EU, and worldwide.
My vote; Kick the Nazi scumfuck genocidal krauts out of human civilization. Make an example of them, the example we should have made in 1945. Fucking asshole Nazis.
just another greek scumbag who refuses to take responsibility for his immorality, mediocrity and corruption
look around your own country greek shit-for-brains, because greece is the ONLY country in the EU with a nazi party
How do you propose to change the treaties so as to make it possible do that (force Greece to leave the eurozone)?
Treaties do not need to be changed, just stop funding greek monetary black-holes (euphemistically referred to as "banks").
Then greek economy will collapse, greeks will be forced to introduce new currency - GREATLY devalued from the euro.
Goodby socialist parasite vermin - YIPPPEEEE !!!!!!!!!
Trapped.
5 more years of slavery.
It puts the euro in the basket
It puts the euro in the basket
PUT THE FUCKING EURO IN THE BASKET
LOL Buffalo Bill played by Schaubel would be awsome....
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc191/sys_config/sys_config001/ee849259-30aa-43e8-a976-bb88c0da50cd_zpsd0q3ufcm.jpg
Some people here seem to think Schauble is part of the problem. So anybody in power is simply dismissed as a member of "the elite" and deemed untrustworthy? Is that it?
Schauble is not part of the problem. He's a big and increasingly admirable part of the solution. He is standing up to the Greeks and their American friends (and no doubt more behind the scenes) who are promoting yet more debt as the solution to their indebtedness. He is also resisting the treacherous, anti-European infiltrators in the ECB who also want to create more "money" out of thin air.
I fail to see how people here draw negative conclusions about Schauble, and the German position generally. Unless of course these people posting at ZH are shills working on behalf of the City of London, which no doubt has a huge stake in this Greek drama, not to mention a hand in obstructing the European project generally. I am increasingly of the opinion that many of these Syriza deputies are working directly for the British. Half of them work there, or were educated there, or did time in the City of London. And you can tell by their actions they are working not to end the Euro project but to keep it bumping along the bottom, thus rendering it permanently useless.
Schauble's right: kick these traitorous fuckers out and put an end to their little game.
And I don't want to hear anyone whining and crying about "austerity". If the Greek so-called "public service" is anything like the Irish so-called "public service" then what we need is yet more austerity, not less, because these fat, overpaid, underworked, entitled whingebags need to be trimmed down quite a bit more before they will ever see hardship. I've been here in Ireland right throughout this recession and austerity didn't go nearly far enough to cut the wages, entitlements and benefits - hidden and otherwise - that these so-called public servants think they're entitled to.
Schauable IS the problem. He refuses to accept any rational plan that would allow Greece to repay its debts. He wants those Hellenic Untermenschen out of his EuroReich, regardless of the cost.
His German banks got bailouts. Deutschebank was the SECOND largest recipient of US taxpayer bailout funds. If Greece was a subsidiary of Deutschebank, Schauble would flood it with cash.
You're assuming those "German" banks you mention were working on behalf of the "German" people.
I think we all know who these "German" banks were working for, and it wasn't the "German" people.
Schauble represents those people, and speaks for many of us in Europe who want to see an end to Jewish, American, and British interference in the European Union, interference which is designed to benefit one party only, to the detriment of the peoples of Europe.
It is too much to ask that Germans take responsibility for their own actions. Even after creating a Juden Frei Fourth Reich you still have to blame Jews for all of your problems. Pathetic and disgusting, but typical.
If it's true that all of the banks are controlled by and for the benefit of Jews to the detriment of the Deutsch master race why do you allow Switzerland, which is nothing more than a giant bank, to exist? Are the Swiss a nation of Jews?
I don't know the answer to that question, since European Jews have a long history of changing their colours as soon as they have been found out. In Spain, Italy, Poland, Russia and elsewhere they assumed the religion and customs of the host nation to avoid prosecution for their well-known seditious behaviour, so it is very difficult to know nowadays how many of those who pass for European Christians are secretly on the other side. What I do know for certain is that they work themselves into positions of power, and work secretly and tirelessly to undermine whatever host nation they find themselves in.
London, of course, is well-known as a city which gives them all the protection they need, so it is not surprising they chose London as ther base from which to launch their attacks on Christian Europe. You can be certain of one thing though: "there is nothing secret that will not come to light". The day is approaching when every single attack of theirs on Christian Europe will be revealed for the whole world to see. I wouldn't like to be a Jew - fake or real - when that happens.
dirty slob
I think “Judeo-Bolshevik” is a more descriptive term than “Jewish”.
They’ve been perpetrating mass genocides and general plunders continuously for at least 5,000 years.
Here is an examination (derived from pages of The Los Angeles Times) of one of their more recent (Russian slaughter) operations; complete with mass genocide, general plunder, and mass exodus. You’ll also need a copy of the Old Testament by your side; otherwise you may not believe what you read.
Here's an idea Wolfgang, to blow up your tyres...
1% exchangable gold-backed Drachma - against the zero-backed Euro; this would literally be infinitely more valuable!
Never happen. Socialists don't like their hands tied when it comes to debt monetization - they would never submit to such a 'barbarous relic' as gold.
Agreed... but, why leave decisions to socialists… or any kind of collectivist?
Is there something wrong with civilized men providing an alternative?
Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see it happen.
I know what you mean Jim, especially since the Greek politicians in power, soon to be 'removed', will be sitting on a printed 5m to 10m Euro each payoff, for dragging the poverty stricken masses into, well, much more poverty and ownershiplessness :-)
I tweeted Yanis to back Drachma with their 112 tonnes of gold. Could run in parallel with euro. I know which I'd prefer.
Will Reichsfinanzegualeiter Schauble include free Zyklon-B in his offer?
Ein Volk!
Ein Reich!
Ein Euro!
maybe one should propose 5 years in prison for
SchaubleThe Greeks should just get out on their own, deny or forfeit all debt held outside Greece, adjust their budget to something close to balanced (which should be much easier without having to make debt payments), lock in a small short term debt window with Russia/China or their new bank, and say goodbye to the Troika.
Maybe this is the plan for Tsipras - one last try to get a bailout - knowing it will be rejected - then armed with rejection and the people's vote - they Grexit. We can hope...
Reading all these comments in the article, from all these different bigshot EU representatives, I see two common strains of thought (with the exception of Schauble):
* Greece's latest proposal is a good opening to begin thinking about possibly holding future talks to discuss the potentiality of eventually sometime later this year, or perhaps next year, contemplating taking action to temporarily resolve the Greek financial crisis.
* Greece should take immediate actions to promote economic growth.
Same shit I read years ago when Greece had that fat jolly finance minister (Vevuzula or something like that) making proposals and Herman Von Rompuy was President of the European Council.
...but not before they meet and vote about the shape of the table in the meeting room
"One way: Greece improved its proposals quickly and comprehensively, with the full support of Parliament. The Ministry suggested among other things that Greece shall transfer assets amounting to 50 billion euros to a trust fund, which it sells and thus removes debt."
Of course, Greece for sale! I wonder, would Schauble be happy if each Greek was made to wear a ball and chain and work for free for Germany, like in the rotten old times of his forefathers?
Germany: once a Nazi, always a Nazi.
Sounds like a lot of stones being thrown in glass houses.
“… far away… complicated… debt relief?”
Ah, so many issues to discuss… and no one comes close to the real issue: validity of the debt.
This should always be the first question; for, if the debt is invalid, no civilized forum of redress will allow its collection: alleged debtors, in fact, will not be regarded as debtors.
As I’ve noted repeatedly, and elsewhere, the particular issue here (and one that all nations must eventually face) is the validity of debt supposedly payable by each nation/people involved.
A debt is valid only if those purportedly liable for it 1) personally participated in its negotiation; 2) had full understanding of its terms; 3) received benefits equal to the amount loaned; 4) were not misled or subjected to undue influence relative to such debt; and 5) the creditor has adequate evidence of all these requirements (and maybe more).
If A lends B money and both agree to make C liable for such debt, it is not a valid debt; no matter who A, B or C is.
After questions of validity are settled, the next step is to make those, who ruined lives and collected plunder, accountable for what they did with such debt policy.
These are issues Greeks (and all other nations) must ponder… but won’t; for, they have no knowledge of REAL facts of what American Founders did.
The situation in question requires much more than merely “pondering” particular issues. It requires action on a most profound (nation-building) level.
And, it can’t be done in a week.
How long will it take?
The English early declared their right/power of redress with the Magna Charta. It took them 400 years and oceans of blood before they developed reasonably effective methods to redress grievances.
That is, before a nation can merely declare this power, it must first be introduced to it (One and Two).
Watch the Greek nation… then watch the American nation. You’ll witness the price of ignorance.
Broke ass EU talking shit about broke ass Greece. Love it. All we need is debt boy Obuttfuck to chime in
Intractable Casino Capitalism Ponzi Hell & Purgatory for the USA, Greece, and the entire 'Eurozone' European Union membership. Ergo, World War Three, & Jade Helm 15 genocide of undesirables that oppose Martial Law. The Military Industrial Complex knows that they are dealing with a zero sum game when it comes to their funding, and influence.
Jade Helm 15 is their response to being undermined by their economic reality of lost economic control of their collective destiny. In brief, what is happening politically in the USA right now is that they are preparing to launch a first strike end game with Russia in hopes of continuing their Ponzi largesse of skull-thuggery & war. The de Rothschild Bank is funding all the war debt, and the Russian Federation, as well as China, are obviously all in on World War Three given the present buildups.
What is obvious to myself is that the most indebted nation in the World is attempting to force everyone in the World to think they have some sort of legal license to inflict damage and destruction on all of our collective lives because they are bankrupt outright and have nowhere else to turn. The USA is Greece in so far as their criminal accounting procedures are enmeshed to the point of havoc for both. American politicians will attempt to force their interests on Greece to the point where Greece will implode no matter what the shit=for-brains central banksters attempt to do. The MIC knows they have no chance of success, but they are trying anyways because they are too stupid to know how to extricate themselves from their own criminality, and largesse.
It is all very comforting to know that America is imploding inward onto itself so rapidly today. In Biblical proportions America is crumbling into one big huge controlled demolition dump heap just like the World Trade Centers 1, 2, & building 7.
Karma rocks, America.
A Grexit for 5 years would be nothing new. In the early 20th century Greece was banned from the Latin Monetary Union (1866-1914 lead by France) for a couple of years. Came back in and was banned finally in 1906 for cheating, Italy was the next, they lowered silver grade of the coins and printed paper money which was not allowed. France did a lot and lost a lot trying to keep things together. Why is anybody surprised now? Maybe because this history is never mentioned anywhere.
Schäuble to Greece: Bitch better have my money! Wolfgang is the pimp of the year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S6vk9K2Cwo
I've heard a lot of bluster and lies from all sides (Greece-Troika) to get the best possible deal for themselves, but this does not quite sound like a fake ploy to bring Greece to heel on the next debt restructuring deal to humiliate Tsipras/Syriza and bring down his government, replace it with a more compliant puppet to keep them in the euro. It sounds as though Germany is actually going to cut Greece loose from the euro.
From the POV of the "system" that includes the central banks, private creditors, fund managers, global banks, insurance, currency, bonds and CDS, a Grexit does have the potential to bring it all crashing down unless they are so confident of the ISDA/EMEA never declaring a credit event that they feel it is a done deal. It's quite possible considering the determination body mainly consists of the same private banks that issued and purchased the CDS (Possibly trillions of euros in notional value) in the first place.
The Grexit drama certainly has been good for the european exporters, mainly Germany via a weaker euro making them highly competitive. It has also been great for the banks and the big speculators with jump risks.
I am just very confused about it all. Confused about whether Tsipras always intended to lose the referendum to facilitate a much worse deal that will choke Greece for another few years with austerity and stagnant debt slavery - seemingly happening right now. Confused about Varoufakis' forced-Grexit conspiracy theory that it was all about clearing away Greece to frighten the French to stay with the euro. Confused about Goldman's theory that the IMF/US+Goldman Sachs care deeply about Greece and want to help them fight against the nasty EURO who only want an excuse to implement QE. Well maybe not confused about that last bullshit theory penned by the squid, but as for the rest, I DON'T KNOW.
My initial feeling was that the new Syriza govt was sincere. I know that the IMF is owned by US/GS, and the Euro is bitterly divided between the pro-GS camp (Draghi) and the pro-Germany camp (Schauble). My feelings now? It perhaps appears as though elements of the Troika are ALL controlled in one way or another by GS and the drama unfolding is for public consumption to acclimatize us to accept the inevitable - whatever that may be. Most likely a bitter chokehold on Greece to punish them for fighting for a better future while stripping away any assets left before it is consigned to the reject bin of history. I don't know about Tsipras and I don't know about Varoufakis - they could well be just showing human weakness in the face of the huge dark bankster/political forces ranged against them or they could very well be playing a script. I prefer the former than the latter.
Had I been in Tsipras/Varoufakis' positions, I would have pulled the pin on the Grexit grenade by now. Leaving little time for the enemy to regroup and renew their attacks from a position of strength. But I do understand that the vast majority of greeks want to stay within the stability and safety of the euro without the austerity - therein lies the rub. Take this insult from Schauble and turn it around - just leave and let them stew in their own juices. It will be incredibly tough for a few years - with the high cost of borrowing, devaluation, social chaos - but that's when you really find out who your friends and enemies are in the world. I cannot in good conscience make any harsh judgements on Tsipras and Varoufakis (Who resigned ostensibly to get a better deal from the troika) who are in such dire straits hanging on a thread atop an untenable position.
The only honest comment I can make at this time is that this is, for me, a confusing situation made worse by not knowing whose opinions I can trust.
Everybody has a different theory, but without full knowledge of the discussions, it is just speculation.
To go down to the wire without pallets of freshly printed Drachmas tucked away was just plain stupid. Establish an exchange rate and let the Greek marketplace adjust the price. At least domestic markets can function and wages/pensions can be paid.
It would unleash a legal shitstorm of epic dimensions but if Greeks want to survive they'll just have to tough it out, like a lot of countries have done in the past.
Just don't go looking for advice on recapitalizing banks from Goldman Sachs.
Apologies - the post really wasn't written well. I just wanted to get some thoughts down in draft without proof reading it, so I don't blame anyone for the down votes although the gist is clear.
could it be any more obvious - these so called leaders are completely rogue and we mean nothing to them... everything on paper (wealth, treaties, referenda) are utterly UTTERLY meaningless..i.e if you have a document saying you own some shares/pension/funds/bank account.... its all shit... and subject to confiscation which is an oxymoron in that how can something be confiscated that didn't really exist in the first place... simply put Fiat Currency is just a control system
Own physical gold guys (for your family's protection) and remove some of the exposure
www.teamramgold.com
This is getting beyond absurd. Face reality - humanity will be ok even if the eurozone utopian master plan collapsed. It is indeed blackmail. Just default. Refuse to pay any of it and sue Goldman Sachs for fudging the numbers to get you in on the whole dumb euro project.... I understand the idea of suing GS has been floated.
http://preview.images.memegenerator.net/Instance/Preview?imageID=3459374...
Europe is trying to hold Greece hostage and the Greek government is letting them. This is where game theory gets everyone - nowhere. If Greece had already left the EU they could have saved millions of dollars on interest payment and used that money to purchase silver, issued a drachma, and backed the debt swap on the drachma with it - it being the silver. Then the price of silver would have gone up, probably dramatically, and their currency would increase in value.
Even if the drachma did not start off too hot in the FX markets it would have worked in Greek tourism's favour. And since Greece is a tourist hub this would have helped jump start the economy.
Yet Greece kicked and whined and Europe kicked and bitched and now they're both fucked.
Oh well.
Be your own sovereign - buy silver.
Herr Schauble says:
http://preview.images.memegenerator.net/Instance/Preview?imageID=7601678...
My Big Fat Greek Analogy!
Will the EU and the world dodge a financial bullet by kicking the can down the road for a 3rd time in Greece?
An infusion of money by the EU into Greece that will be combined with promises of additional austerity measures, increased taxes and slashed pensions, may stave off the inevitable sovereign debt default and eurozone exit of that country for another period of time.
But it is extremely likely, however, that the 'crisis in Greece' will resurface again at some point in the future.
Read the analogy at LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/my-big-fat-greek-analogy-michael-haltman?...
The idea of giving Greece a sabbatical from the euro area cannot be taken seriously, an EU official says in Brussels.
It is legally not feasible...
Neither was invading Poland....
Scheuble could use Eyore's voice from Whinnie the Poo to describe the bullshit layered on bullshit.
"It is a sad day, a day when nothing good could possibly happen. The Greeks cannot be trusted to do anything but take our money. They will give nothing back. Not a farthing, not an euro. These things never end well. The Greeks need to leave and never come back, I mean in 5 years maybe. It is so sad! "
Enough with the "Shauble caught taking a shit photo" already.
The privatisation of Greek Industry are now being discused. If they sell out their industries to the Banksters the Greek gov should be lynched in the streets.
Thatcher sold out to them in the 90's with devastating results for the UK. Millions of job loses, Reduced services etc..
Maybe an island or two for the Banksters to holiday on will be next.
Theres a time when its time to do the obvious. Write off the debt. The countries/ banks that made the loans will have to take the risk hit and like it.
I would like to go on a date with Lagarde. Thank you.
There is a secret cooperation between Russia and Germany.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/06/29/putin-gobsmacks-uncle-sam-again/
"Germany and Russia have a history of secret cooperation—even when headline conflict appears to indicate otherwise."
Hahaha, Molotov-von Ribbentrop II.
The Germans, Finns, et cetera, have been decent. They tried restructuring Greek debts and have already done two write downs in 2011 and 2012. So what hope is there that Greece will honor future pledges? I would think to be a member of the Euro group you have to have a European style democracy and economy that honors it’s debt commitments. How do you have a political union with a European Argentina?
At some point the best decision is just to send humanitarian aid, and trust that the Greek people will eventually redesign their economy and political class. The US should shut up and support the Euro group and send humanitarian aid.
FUCK ALL OF THEM. SCHAUBLE, TSITSI FLY, BURPING MERKEL, GODLESS SACHS AND THAT FUCKSTICK DRAGHI....
ASSHOLES. THE LOT OF THEM.
AND FUCK YOU GOLDMAN SACHS, YOU PASSEL OF CUNTS!
The countries of the Euro would not prosper if every member was a Germany. They need the Italys, Spains and yes the Greeks to prosper.
The euro needs a lot of the Greeks of the Euro to keep the Euro from getting too strong. Plus it gives the stronger Euro countries, that manufacture stuff, a place to sell their wares.
OK Greeks, it's time to pull the pin on the grenade strapped to your chest. These fools are punking you. Fucking do it.
It was done back in Feb. 2015...you are just slow to see it.
OMG..Grexit? The gone kick us out of EU?
What's gone happen to all the border protection against illegal immigration that they have provided all these years?
What's gone happen to all the factories and investements they have build on our soil?
What's gone happen to all their support for our National interests like Cyprus and FYROM?
OMG...OMG this is terrible, we gone miss out in all these loans they get us to sign so we can pay their older loans...we are doomed.
Someone help us please...Putin? Fidel? Che? are you there???
We gone be poor and bankrupted without the EU...WHAT ARE WE GONE DO???????
PS: Soible will get what he deserves and it will be made of copper..not gold!
Attention Greece:
Default on your debt, introduce your own currency, leave the Eurozone, get on with life.
That is all...
We are doing that and if you take time as irelevant you will see that since February 2015 we have been loyal to our plans. The question is what are you doing within your sociaty to rid your self of the control that bankers have on you life?
What..we have all these smart finance ministers...and they cannot figure what to do with one of their bad boy countries...I think they need a timeout... and go back to playing "kick the can". This is so exhausting..
Ministers preach about God.
Finance Ministers preach about their god- Mammon.
They can only "kick the can" for so long.
That day nears, and then, every hidden thing will be revealed.
This 5-year probation thing could work so long as it implies a moratorium on debt payments.
ECB would have to back-stop Greek banks and looks like there would have to be some consolidation within the banking industry.
Meantime, Greece would have the time to plan a nationalization of the banks and new currency launch.
How do we know that the last 5 months of circle-jerk negotiations were not a foot-drag smoke screen for parallel currency creation? And the banks have now been closed long enough to fund the paper swap... If 5 months (seems too short!) is not long enough, how about 5 years?
It's hard to believe that this Syriza government could be so off the mark as to not have used this time they've dragged into creation to implement a Plan B.
If Germany and increasingly the entire North and East of the Eurozone is getting behind a Grexit, they may be In on this facilitating plan. Makes some sense where nothing else does.
Paper, notes printing and all that part could be occurring outside the EU and the necessary electronic set-ups would bring Greek systems into the 21st century.
"This 5-year probation thing"
Is that double-secret probation? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tfK_3XK4CI
What a joke.
DEFAULT.
GET IT OVER WITH.
Lol @ your typical banker unable to grasp the fact that Greece is dead as debtor.....you cant resuscitate someone whose dead already.
Somebody didn't slip four wheels his cash stuffed brown envelope on time.
http://articles.latimes.com/1999/nov/23/news/mn-36726
Any machinizations, mental gymnastics, lies, and changing of words will be used to prevent the use of the word "DEFAULT" in order not to trigger CDS and banker armageddon.
European "union" is now an oxymoron.
Interestingly, this seems to give the lie to prior conspiracy theories that the next grand crisis in Europe would be the pretext to move to full political union, under the aegis of a wider New World Order. Doesn't seem to be happening that way; indeed, Schäuble in particular seems intent on destroying the whole thing.
If he thinks he can boot out Greece and continue on to a banking and then political union with the remaining nations, surely he must know it is a racing certainty that the rest of the PIIGS and France will meet the same fate as the Greeks before he ever gets there.
Strange days.