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"Be Our Guest": Russia Warns Washington Of "Unintended Incidents" In Syria

Tyler Durden's picture




 

On Thursday evening, we chronicled the latest in the drama that is Syria’s horrific civil war, noting that, according to an Israeli defense source, “hundreds” of Iran’s Revolutionary Guards are on the ground in Syria fighting alongside the Russians to support Bashar al-Assad’s depleted forces as they battle to regain control of the country. 

If true, that would answer the following question which we’ve been asking for quite some time: will Iran remain on the sidelines and allow the Houthis to be routed in Yemen and Assad deposed in Syria, or will Tehran, like Moscow, finally decide that the time for rhetoric has come to an end?

Reports of Iranian involvement come on the heels of rampant speculation about the scope of Russia’s military buildup near Latakia where US “intelligence” and a series of unnamed “Lebanese sources” claim Moscow is essentially preparing for a full-on push to rout any and all domestic opposition to the Assad regime. The question, of course, is what happens when foreign opposition to the Assad regime isn’t willing to accept the restoration of the strongman’s rule.

Predictably, there’s been no shortage of back-and-forth banter between John Kerry and Sergei Lavrov over the past several days. Here's how Lavrov characterizes the exchange:

“Kerry was also pushing the very strange idea that supporting Bashar Assad in his anti-terror fight only strengthens the positions of ISIS, because the sponsors of ISIS would pump even more arms and money into it,” Lavrov said.

 

“It's an absolutely upside-down logic and yet another attempt to appease those who use terrorists to fight dissenting regimes,” the Russian FM said, mentioning US attempts to cooperate with varrious extremist groups in Syria over the past few years.

 

“It's a colossal mistake that the US-led [anti-ISIS] coalition never considered interaction with Syria, not even information exchange,” Lavrov said. “I cannot comprehend this logic, or rather absolute lack of logic.”

 

“We help not only Syria, we also provide weapons to Iraq and other countries of the region that find themselves on the frontline with the terror threat. Equally for Iraq and other countries, we do so without any political preconditions,” Lavrov said.

And on Friday, Lavrov took it up a notch with a series of very serious-sounding (albeit hilariously overstated, we hope) soundbites delivered at a news conference in Russia. Here’s Reuters:

At a news conference, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Russia was sending equipment to help Assad fight Islamic State. Russian servicemen were in Syria, he said, primarily to help service that equipment and teach Syrian soldiers how to use it.

 

Russia was also conducting naval exercises in the eastern Mediterranean, he said, describing the drills as long-planned and staged in accordance with international law.

 

Lavrov blamed Washington for cutting off direct military-to-military communications between

Russia and NATO over the Ukraine crisis, saying such contacts were "important for the avoidance of undesired, unintended incidents".

 

"We are always in favor of military people talking to each other in a professional way. They understand each other very well," Lavrov said. "If, as (U.S. Secretary of State) John Kerry has said many times, the United States wants those channels frozen, then be our guest."

Yes, "be our guest", which, unless something is lost in translation there (as it was when Hillary Clinton hilariously presented Lavrov with a giant red button that was supposed to say "reset" but actually said "overcharged" in 2009) sounds quite a bit like the Kremlin telling Washington that it's just fine with Russia if the West wants to risk getting into a scenario where Russian and US jets end up in an "accidental" dog fight in the skies above Syria. 

We will now anxiously await Kerry's response which will almost certainly contain the words "very" and "concerned", which would be accurate as long as he's talking about Assad's fate and not the fate of ISIS.

 

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Fri, 09/11/2015 - 11:25 | 6536090 Alok
Alok's picture

Go Putin!!! Go Lavrov!!!

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 11:59 | 6536257 alphahammer
alphahammer's picture

How many fronts are Iran and Russia fighting on now? Casualities will always "color" policy as we already now with Crimea, Iranians "martyered" in Iraq and of course here in America.

When the home folks start asking serious questions, then we will see what happens...

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 12:26 | 6536389 agent default
agent default's picture

Care to count how many fronts the US is fighting on?

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:27 | 6536676 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

Iran had a million casualties in the 1982 US sponsored Iraq war. They still won. 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 12:17 | 6536354 Amraphel
Amraphel's picture

and don't come back!

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 11:27 | 6536096 Joe Tierney
Joe Tierney's picture

Russia don't get no respect!

 

Except that the truth is, when Russia wants to obstruct U.S. policy, it can create enormous problems for the West. Putin is demonstrating how costly it is to alienate Russia.

 

Will Kerry and Obama take a cue and learn from this? Oh hell no!

 

The Cold War II geopolitical fight is on! This time aorund, Russia-China will get the victory.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 11:31 | 6536120 topshelfstuff
topshelfstuff's picture

It was about two months ago when I first stumbled on info re: Edgar Caycee's reference to Russia, and after looking deeper a few others, basically the same though decades or centuries apart. google [edgar caycee russia ] Here's a start point/paste:

see what Edgar Cayce had to say:

Edgar Cayce (1877-1945), the so-called “sleeping prophet”, made a number of remarkably accurate predictions of the future. In 1934, Cayce predicted the beginning and end of World War II many years before it happened. He predicted the end of Communism, and that Russia would be born again. He also saw a strong religious movement coming out of Russia.


Throughout the readings of the ‘Sleeping Prophet’ Edgar Cayce we again encounter amazing references to Russia’s special place in the cosmic plan. Cayce said:

“In Russia there comes the hope of the world, not as that sometimes termed of the communistic, or Bolshevik, no; but freedom, freedom! That each man will live for his fellow man! The principle has been born. It will take years for it to be crystallized, but out of Russia comes again the hope of the world.”
(Edgar Cayce, 1944, No. 3976-29)

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 11:41 | 6536175 libertysghost
libertysghost's picture

huhmm...that's kind of fun.  Thanks.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 20:15 | 6538163 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

I will not live for another man, subvert myself to anothers dreams, goals and ambitions, no thanks.....    Damn collectivists always so high minded with others lives..... 

 

"That each man will live for his fellow man"

 


Sat, 09/12/2015 - 20:29 | 6540713 mc225
mc225's picture

yeah, that's what i was thinking... how is 'each man living for his fellow man' considered to be freedom? if it were voluntary, perhaps so. but it always seems that this 'altruism' is enforced and not at all voluntary....

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 11:39 | 6536166 libertysghost
libertysghost's picture

Maybe I was on to something...I talked about Russia and Iran (and maybe China though I included they were a long shot) getting togather to rout some ISIS for a grand spectacle "in your face" to the west.  "Why shouldn't we be involved in this again?!?!"  If the CIA/Mossad wants to save their rent a terrorists, force them to be obvious about it...so obvious it might expose the MSM and the entire system of lies out of the corporatist system as they hide from the obvous backflipping tired narratives.  

Credibility is so important powerful people are refusing to talk about it these days.  

 

“Sooner or later, everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences..." – Robert Louis Stephenson 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 11:41 | 6536172 quasi_verbatim
quasi_verbatim's picture

A dogfight would solve our oil price problem, but not half a dozen of this, half a dozen of that. Think airborne battle fleets and aerial armadas. Herman Goering would have known how to ramp it up.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 11:50 | 6536219 Batman11
Batman11's picture

Putin has a new card in his hands.

Western and Asian markets are teetering on the edge of a big fall.

Can the West afford to engage Putin in a fight, how will the markets react?

 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 12:04 | 6536285 johnjkiii
johnjkiii's picture

Let's remember that the Russian Army proved in Afghanistan that they are the Keystone Kops of the military world. Iran needs its nose bloodied as well. We should stay out and watch as they break their piks. Saves U.S. Soldiers, taxpayers money and weakens a beligerent pair of thugs. What's not to like?

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 12:10 | 6536310 farflungstar
farflungstar's picture

Yeah why should USSA dirty it's hands killing off the terrorists it helped to arm, train and provide logistics to? 

Leave it to the adults in the region to clean up the mess President Niggro and his israeli daddy concocted, like the murderous cunts that they are.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 12:49 | 6536504 SUNKNIGHT2010
SUNKNIGHT2010's picture

Sorry but that is not true . Afghanistan fighters ,while poorly equipped are VERY fierce fighters & even the USA has had trouble with them. It is VERY true that Iran's military forces are a joke but Russia should be taken seriously & provoking war with highly armed nuclear power , like Russia is ! Really is NOT the smartest of decisions for the long term survival of the human race !

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:24 | 6536656 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

You think the Republican Guard of Iran is a joke? 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 20:47 | 6538239 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Hezbollah, who has been helping Syria and is connected to Iran, made the supposed greatest army in the world with the greatest tank in the world have a very tough month in Lebanon back in 2006.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkLshdwXJto

Never underestimate people defending their own land from invaders and tyrants.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:41 | 6536731 Rhett72
Rhett72's picture

Saddam Hussein might disagree with you that the Iranian army is a joke.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 20:19 | 6538173 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Absolutely when it comes to marching unarmed children through mine fields and into 155 arty the Iranians are second to none...  Not sure I remember them outmanuevering anyone in the last 2400 years, Oh wait they kicked the Greeks asses, what was that??  Thermopylae and Marathon... Whats a gas station got to do with it...

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 21:41 | 6538432 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

blah blah blah

Iran has not started any war in over 200 years

but has had plenty dirty done to them

better worry about your own country

so concerned about children

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 22:33 | 6538584 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

I made no point concerning that, your right unless we count sponsorship of terror attacks justified or not and their domination of areas in Iraq and Lebanon they have been quite restrained.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 19:33 | 6538069 Not Too Important
Not Too Important's picture

'Really is NOT the smartest of decisions for the long term survival of the human race !'

Fukushima and the rest to come - all nuclear power plants will completely vent to atmosphere at some point soon - have ensured there will be no survival. Nuclear war will only accelerate what is already happening. Nukes make big holes, but limited radioactivity. NPP's venting to atmosphere and burning Spent Fuel Pools measure into the millions of nuclear weapons exploding.

Fukushima had 4 cores go, one with highly enriched plutonium, plus Spent Fuel Pools. Thousands of tons into the atmosphere, and the rest going into the Pacific Ocean for a billion years.

We are all dead men walking. Hug your kids.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 14:28 | 6536956 BarkingCat
BarkingCat's picture

Firstly that was the Soviet Union and not Russia.
Completely different mentality and the end result was not any different than US in Vietnam or Iraq.

Russia is not known for getting thousands of its soldiers killed in far away wars. They will however die by the millions defending their own..but even during home defence they have always played it strategically smart. For example they beat Napoleon not by direct confrontation but rather by having him chase across their vast country in search of battle, stretching his supply lines and eventually falling to the brutal Russian winter.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 14:30 | 6536973 Anunnaki
Anunnaki's picture

That's the consequence of all those loser Ukrainians calling the shots in the decrepit Soviet Union. Putin is a Russian. And if you don't think that matters, stick around for the show

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:27 | 6537250 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

I doubt you know much about Afghanistan.

 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 12:43 | 6536317 NuYawkFrankie
NuYawkFrankie's picture

"..supporting Bashar Assad in his anti-terror fight only strengthens the positions of ISIS" - Kerry

 It's an absolutely upside-down logic.." Lvarov on Kerry

 

Yes, Mr Lvarov - I'm afraid Sec. Kerry has been hit in the head by the barn-door one too many times.

Can you recommend a good vetinarian? tia

 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 12:24 | 6536382 Phillyguy
Phillyguy's picture

This is more theater of the absurd from US state Department. ISIS/Daesh is the direct result of US/NATO wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and now Yemen. ISIS is being funded/supplied by the GCC, using (US taxpayer supplied) weapons captured from Iraq. Turkey, Northern Iraq, Jordan and Israeli-occupied Golan Heights provide safe havens for ISIS. The only forces really fighting against ISIS is Assad, Hezbollah and Iran. Russia and Iran are supporting Syria in this effort. ISIS is being used by US, NATO, GCC to destabilize Syria and remove Assad.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 12:30 | 6536416 news printer
news printer's picture
Video Footage of Russian Marines Conducting Drills in Tartous

https://youtu.be/0N4urciJCJ4

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 12:31 | 6536421 heywood2
heywood2's picture

So how much does the Russian government pay ZH to be so "openminded" about the Russian point of view?

 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 12:37 | 6536445 kerr
kerr's picture

nothing

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:10 | 6536589 heywood2
heywood2's picture

How do you know? Does ZH explicity deny taking getting any support, directly or indirectly from Russian entities?

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:20 | 6536636 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

Does the US get support from AIPAC and the zios? Oh, I guess not. It's the other way around. We pay tribute.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 18:15 | 6537875 Freddie
Freddie's picture

The Russians and Putin are largely white Christians who support white Christians and respect other people.

The US leadership are not white Christians. Hey get your kid or kids to join the military so they can go die for Soros, Zuckerberg and The Pentagram.  Idiot. F You.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 12:40 | 6536463 cheech_wizard
cheech_wizard's picture

Every question asked has a flip side...

So how much does the American government pay Reuters/Associated Press (I can think of a dozen more news outlets, but why bother to list them) to be so "openminded" about the American point of view?

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:19 | 6536626 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

I wish they would pay me  -at lease reimburse me for the Cost of mt "Putin For president 2016" and "Putin Hope" T-shirts. 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 14:05 | 6536853 marcusfenix
marcusfenix's picture

well I haven't gotten any cash yet...

but I did get a free "learn judo with Putin" video.

that guy is a bad ass.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 14:28 | 6536959 Anunnaki
Anunnaki's picture

I reject Putin's generous offer of cash/post (gold coins only, no fiat) thus to maintain my amateur status

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:14 | 6537192 bid the soldier...
bid the soldiers shoot's picture

it's hard to believe you are capable of so many thoughts.  Or does all that beer help?

"Bottoms Up"

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 16:17 | 6537475 Infinite QE
Infinite QE's picture

He's a really sad case. His wife runs a korean happy ending massage place in jersey and pulls all nighters. He then has to travel to his homeland on tours of shooting palestinian children in the back to find his release.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 16:13 | 6537452 Infinite QE
Infinite QE's picture

So stutters the resident bolshevik joo.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 12:43 | 6536481 BeerMe
BeerMe's picture

Probably why we are seeing refugees moved out.  Time for some war games.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 12:49 | 6536506 man of Wool
man of Wool's picture

Not clear at the moment what Russia's strategy is. Putin has mentioned power sharing in Syria, which has got Assad worried. Interesting to see if the ISIS terrorist division or some fucked up Chechen might decide to start terrorist attacks in Moscow.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:03 | 6536563 Hope Copy
Hope Copy's picture

Woll.. you must have to much over your eyes.  Turkey's Erdogan is going to get punked!

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:17 | 6536618 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

Maybe Putin will liberate Turkey from the despot Erdogan. Making the world safe for Democracy. 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:10 | 6537170 bid the soldier...
bid the soldiers shoot's picture

Russia's strategy:

 

Make sure the incumbent Assad oversees the next election and not Noodleman.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:04 | 6536566 Youri Carma
Youri Carma's picture

Iranian troops join Russians in Syria fighting http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4699809,00.html

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:11 | 6536590 Barnaby
Barnaby's picture

Not just troops. Quds Force. Persian ultra-marines. Kind of a turquoise, really.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:08 | 6536577 Barnaby
Barnaby's picture

Are we not entertained?!

Douchebag Pretty Boy runs out the clock on his destructive admin whilst the world disintegrates. We have from sea to shining sea dependents and refugees. God it's great to be King.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:07 | 6537158 bid the soldier...
bid the soldiers shoot's picture

Is anyone really surprised?

Didn't he and Michelle and the girls go a church where the minister preached "God damn America"?

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:08 | 6536579 Hope Copy
Hope Copy's picture

Get it on.. We all want to see the results!  Air to air and anything else..  Talk the talk, now it is time to walk the walk!

Come on Israel.  do you dare go up against the real thing?

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 14:03 | 6536834 marcusfenix
marcusfenix's picture

I think Israel realizes that they have just been sidelined, I don't see them risking airstrikes if there is a chance it will bring them into direct conflict with Russian military aircraft. worse still if there is even a chance that s-300 or 400 SAM batteries have been deployed. 

I don't think Bibi feels secure enough in US military support to risk a confrontation. 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:04 | 6537146 bid the soldier...
bid the soldiers shoot's picture

That's why he's building a wall around the Jewish State.

Believing no Joshua from ISIL can tumble it down.

But what goes around, Bibi, comes around

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 03:53 | 6538993 Element
Element's picture

Don't bet on it marcus, the kikes have been presuming for the past 3 years that Russia was going to intervene, at some point, and they knew the Iranians already had. They have been training and very busily extravagantly equipping towards that end, I've paid very close attention to what they've actually been doing in prep for it. On balance I don't think the Russians will have any chance at all if the kikes did decide to attack them.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:13 | 6536603 fritskrach
fritskrach's picture

 In the world largest wine cellar of Milestii Mici in Moldova you will find somewere in the middle of an enormous underground system of gangways several interesting names on private stores.  

As there are close to an impressive tasting room (Obersalzberg like) the finest collections of

John Kerry

Angela Merkel

Vladimir Putin

Hermann Göring  

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:15 | 6536613 Z_End
Z_End's picture

http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/09/11/mideast-crisis-syria-arms-idINL5N11G45720150911

Can track and engage cruise missiles too... May be an exciting weekend... Fireworks

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:23 | 6536614 news printer
news printer's picture
Funny: Al-Nusra captured by ISIS

https://youtu.be/ofIjhDTsh-0?t=17s

 

I'm so sorry it's so cruel.

At least they stopped eating livers for a change.


Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:45 | 6536744 JenkinsLane
JenkinsLane's picture

Paging Maverick and Goose...

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:54 | 6536796 Barnaby
Barnaby's picture

They both died at Miramar flying the F-35. :( :( :(

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 14:55 | 6537088 Element
Element's picture

 

 

"They both died at Miramar flying the F-35. :( :( :(   "

Get a clue

---

AIR FORCE Magazine / September 2015

Aperture:  The F-35 “can’t fight”; New tactics; Marine Corps operational

By John A. Tirpak, Editorial Director

TURN, TURN, TURN

The F-35 program is under attack again. This time the complaint, offered up by the “War is Boring” blog and rapidly picked up by the cottage anti-military think tanks, is that the F-35 can’t dogfight. Based on a leaked pilot’s report from a January sortie, the F-35 was sluggish to put its nose on an F-16 in the high angle of attack regime during a mock engagement. That’s aerodynamic-ese meaning the F-35 had its nose up while moving straight ahead—the same thing pilots do when they’re bleeding off speed, getting ready to land.

The blogger quoted the F-35 test pilot as saying, “There were not compelling reasons to fight in this region” of the flight envelope.

Exactly. The F-35 was not designed to excel in close-in, low-speed, turning dogfights, because that’s generally not how air combat happens anymore. The design emphasis of the F-35 was on other capabilities, more relevant for the future. A little background: The F-35 was always conceived to be the tag team partner of the F-22 in 21st century air combat.

Just as the F-15 and F-16 were intended in the 1970s to be the “high-low mix”—a smaller number of expensive F-15s clearing the sky so the many cheaper F-16s could hit a lot of targets—the F-22 and F-35 were to fill the same complementary roles. The F-22 was optimized for air-to-air combat with limited strike capability, while the F-35 was optimized for strike, with a pretty good dogfighting capability as one of its many secondary missions as the “backbone of the force.”

Air combat has evolved tremendously over 40 years, though.

Radar and missile technology have gotten so good that if you can be seen and targeted by an enemy aircraft, you’re probably going to die. The days of actually closing with the target, rolling and turning to get behind your opponent, are pretty much over.

That’s why the F-22 and F-35 were made stealthy: to give their pilots the fist-shot/fist-kill advantage, shooting from beyond visual range, without being detected. Practically every chief of Air Combat Command for the last decade has uttered some variation of the line that if an F-22 or F-35 actually gets into a close-in, turning dogfight with an opponent, the pilot’s made a grave mistake.

Statistics bear out this message. Since the 1991 Gulf War, a steadily increasing number of air-to-air victories have been achieved with either beyond visual range missiles or all-aspect missiles, while an ever-diminishing share was won with shortrange missiles. The last gun-to-gun kill was recorded in 1988.

According to a recent Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments white paper on “Trends in Air-to-Air Combat,” situational awareness is rapidly superseding speed and maneuverability as the key attribute for success in air battles.

Speed, acceleration, and agility “are much less useful now that aircraft can be detected and engaged from dozens of miles away,” the CSBA report concluded. Rising in importance are “minimal radar and [infrared] signature; space, payload, and cooling capacity; power for large-aperture long-range sensors; and very long-range weapons.”

The Air Force and its sister services took these trends to heart when the F-35 was being designed. That’s why it bristles with sensors and relies on tens of millions of lines of computer code to see, identify, prioritize, and shoot air-to-air (as well as surface-to-air) threats long before they become a danger.

Not only that, but with the multisource onboard sensor data coming into the cockpit, coupled with the F-35’s Distributed Aperture System (DAS) giving the pilot 360-degree visibility, it will be tough to “bounce” or surprise the F-35 pilot. Tactics for the F-35 also emphasize formations, multiplying the number of sensors looking for danger. These inputs are merged with info coming from off-board sensors on satellites, AWACS jets, and the network of other platforms to build a comprehensive picture of the battlespace. This leaves as little as possible to chance.

All that said, F-35 pilots believe the jet will be a sterling dogfighter at need. The Air Force F-35A model was designed to turn at nine Gs with a full load of internal fuel and weapons—far outclassing any enemy lugging missiles and fuel tanks around. The Navy and Marine Corps versions are spec’d to 7.5Gs—the same as their current F/A-18s and AV-8Bs. With the DAS, however, and the F-35 pilot’s helmet, which allows him to see, select, and shoot at a target that he isn’t actually pointing at, F-35 pilots will have extraordinary awareness. The F-35 will be nimble enough, however, to help it evade any missiles actually fired at it.

STRENGTH IN NUMBERS

Though F-35 operators are understandably tight-lipped about tactics, they do explain that the F-35’s combination of stealth, electronic warfare, cyber capabilities, and—almost as a last resort—agility will seriously degrade each step in an enemy’s kill chain. That is, the opponent’s ability to detect, track, shoot at, and ultimately get close to the F-35 are degraded to near zero.

The F-35 System Program Office, responding to the “War is Boring” blog, noted that the F-35 in the test was the second one built and lacked the stealth coatings and “mission systems software … that allows the F-35 to see its enemy long before it knows the F-35 is in the area.” It also lacked “the weapons or software that allow the F-35 pilot to turn, aim a weapon with the helmet, and fire at an enemy without having to point the airplane at its target.”

In fact, the test was less a dogfight than a series of “visual combat maneuvers to stress the system, and the F-16 involved was used as a visual reference to maneuver against,” the SPO said. The test was a success in showing the F-35’s ability “to maneuver to the edge of its limits without exceeding them, and handle in a positive and predictable manner,” but the SPO allowed that the results could result in a “misleading” interpretation. Test pilots afterward effused that the exercise actually showed there was plenty of room in the envelope to tweak the F-35’s performance to make it better.

The SPO also said that when a fully equipped four-ship of F-35s has engaged a four-ship of F-16s in “simulated combat scenarios, … the F-35 won each of those encounters because of its sensors, weapons, and stealth technology.”

The program office offered a quote from Air Force Maj. Gen. Jeffrey L. Harrigian, head of the service’s F-35 integration office, who said, “It is too soon to draw any final conclusions on the maneuverability of the aircraft. The F-35 is designed to be comparable to current tactical fighters in terms of maneuverability, but the design is optimized for stealth. This will allow it to operate in threat environments where the F-16 could not survive.”

To be sure, the F-35 has had its problems and still faces formidable challenges in software development. At a Colorado defense symposium in July, Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James acknowledged that the “biggest lesson” from the program is never to build in as much concurrency between development and production, or as she said, “Never again should we be flying an aircraft while we’re building it.” The F-35 “cost us way more money” than expected, she said.

“We’re very focused from now on to driving the costs down per unit, and they are coming down,” James asserted.

While she acknowledged the pilot’s report regarding the F-35/F-16 matchup, she also stated that the jet involved did not have the mission systems that will make the F-35 so powerful once it’s in service. When it is, it will be able to “see an enemy hundreds of miles” away, shoot first, “and the bad guys [won’t] know what hit them.”

The concept is not to have a close-in dogfight, she said, but “with that said, by the time we’re at full operational capability, we’ll be much better in that arena as well.”

Lt. Col. Andrew Allen, commander of the F-35 combined test force, said in a recent interview with Air Force Magazine that the F-35 is “not here to replace F-16s … or F-18s … or A-10s.

… That’s selling this aircraft short.” The F-35 is supposed to be applicable across the full spectrum of combat, from penetrating heavily defended airspace on Day One to performing urban close air support on Day 365. He said the jet is not there yet, but “are we going to get there? Yes. I fully believe that.”

PRIME TIME LIGHTNING

The Marine Corps declared the F-35B to have achieved initial operating capability on July 31 —a major milestone on an acquisition journey that the Marines has been on since the early 1990s but one that won’t be over for another 15 years.

Commandant Gen. Joseph F. Dunford Jr.—confirmed to start as the new Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff—made the announcement. It came on the last day of the July 2015 target set by the Marines in 2013, but well before the must have date of December 2015. Dunford said Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 121 (VFMA-121) at MCAS Yuma, Ariz. had just passed an operational readiness inspection, where air-to-air, air-to-ground, close air support, armed reconnaissance, and other missions were demonstrated, some with live ordnance, and the F-35 passed with flying colors. He also said the F-35B did well in “multiple large-force exercises” in recent months. He said the unit had the requisite 10 aircraft of the same 2B configuration, plus 50 “trained and qualified” pilots, and about 500 maintainers to provide “autonomous, organic-level maintenance support,” thus meeting all IOC requirements.

Pentagon acquisition chief Frank Kendall cheered the announcement as a signal the F-35 program overall is “on track” and a sure sign it will deliver on its promises. In the same breath, though, he pointed out that “we still have work ahead” to deliver on software blocks and IOC for the Air Force and Navy with their versions of the F-35. The Air Force plans IOC with the F-35A for next August, and its requirements call for 12 to 24 aircraft in the 3I software configuration, plus spare parts and trained pilots. The Navy expects to be operational with the F-35C in late 2017.

The IOC announcement came with an asterisk: Marine Corps Lt. Gen. Jon M. Davis, deputy commandant for aviation, said though he was thrilled with the results of the ORI, “If I have any concern at this point, it is that the spare parts available to extract maximum value” from the F-35B “will be shy of what we truly need.” Davis said he hopes the F-35 will eventually be able to help the Marine Corps boost the full mission capable rate of its combat aircraft higher than the 70 to 75 percent range, where it is now.

A Lockheed Martin spokesman said it is working with the Marine Corps “every day to alleviate this concern.”

In several press conferences over the last year, Lockheed Martin F-35 Program Manager Lorraine M. Martin has said the parts issue stems from the fact that there are so many different configurations of the three F-35 variants—both flying and on the production line. Vendors are hard-pressed, she said, to make all the parts to both fill the operating needs of the 120 or so F-35s now in service and provide modifications to bring older jets to current standards and to fill the supply racks for USMC and USAF units that need them to declare IOC.

After VMFA-121 is fully equipped with F-35Bs, Attack Squadron 211 is slated to trade its AV-8Bs in for Lightning IIs in 2016, and VMFA-122 will give up its F/A-18s for F-35s in 2018.

USMC plans to acquire 353 F-35Bs, as well as 67 F-35Cs, the big-deck carrier models. The Harriers will be fully retired in 2026, and the Marine F/A-18s will be phased out for F-35Bs by 2030. The F-35B will also replace USMC EA-6B Prowler electronic warfare jets, with one squadron transitioning in each of the years from 2017 to 2019. The Marine Corps expects to reach a peak production of F-35Bs in 2018, buying 20 to 24 aircraft a year.

The F-35B fulfills a Marine Corps vision from the early 1990s, when the service began planning for a replacement of the AV-8B. That program was referred to as the Advanced Short Takeoff/Vertical Landing (ASTOVL) aircraft.

Post-Cold War budget tightening compelled the Air Force to merge its multirole fighter (MRF) F-16 replacement and the Navy’s A/F-X attack airplane project with the Marine Corps ASTOVL. Harmonizing the disparate requirements of the three services fell to the Joint Advanced Strike Technology (JAST) office, which evolved into the Joint Strike Fighter program. Lockheed Martin’s X-35 won the ensuing competition with Boeing’s X-32 in 2001, and the F-35A, B, and C efforts began what has become a 16-year development program. ?

Lockheed Martin photo by Liz Kaszynski

The Marine Corps declared IOC for the F-35B.

---

People can whine all they want about the F-35, but the people actually flying it, and experiencing first hand what it can do, and who have also flown all of the other recent US and allied top-tier fighters, totally disagree with you.

 

I'll suspect they will know a bit better than confirmation-bias seeking critics.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 14:57 | 6537111 Barnaby
Barnaby's picture

My 2010 Ford Focus is basically a computer platform on wheels. It doesn't make it superior to a '96 Matte-Black Impala driven by an expert.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 14:57 | 6537119 Element
Element's picture

Get an argument too.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:36 | 6537295 Barnaby
Barnaby's picture

Get a real VTOL. Like the Osprey.

... oh wait

Hey how many lives have to be sacrificed before you realize the last good Marine drop ship is the Harrier?

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:58 | 6537383 Element
Element's picture

If only you were actually realistic and also interested in the topic though, and not just another whining unrealistic moron, talking out his rear passage about topics he cares not one bit about, and is far from interested in ever becoming informed about, or in listening to the professional pilots flying the thing, an all the jets before it. Because your opinion is so compellingly superior and righteous that it washes away all that simply awful real-world messiness, and puts forward trite little nonsense bullshit objections, that pretend to parade around as arguments, with little red ribbons and party balloons.

 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 17:27 | 6537740 Crocodile
Crocodile's picture

Element; you have some thoughtful comments, but you have some "chip" on your shoulder.   Maybe a bad day?  Get well soon; you have some very good insights & people digest information at different rates and we all use some level of emotional bias to form opinions; right or wrong.

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 02:43 | 6538871 Element
Element's picture

It's not a chip on my shoulder Croc, nor is it emotional, it is accurate, I have a complete lack of respect for fools and I refuse to give them any respect as that is the road to mediocrity and dumbness, in public discourse, behavior, judgement and commentary. Let me demonstrate:

The comment string opened with an at least humorous  remark about 'Maverick and Goose'. Then a dope dropped in a remark in about how our heroes of the moment, were killed flying an F-35, implying it let them down, due to design inferiority.

OK, lets look at that then:

The F-14 'Mav and Goose' were pretend 'flying' in the movie, was a two seat F-14B designed in the early 1960s and first flew in service in 1974 (approximately 14 years of development, same as the F-35 to IOC btw).

That jet was supposed to be a JOINT development (like the F-35 actually is) of USN and USAF, of the F-111 (far more bomber than fighter but it still got a USAF 'F' fighter designation anyway) and the USN needed a jet with much more maneuver and A2A capability, as it already had some fast bombers on deck, so the USN swing-wing F-111 then evolved into USN swing-wing F-14 Tomcat.

The Movie Topgun was made in 1986, this means the jet in the movie was using the updated original F-14A/B and F-111 P&W TF30 (TF30-P-414A) engine:
 

TF30-P-414A
2 * 14,560 lb dry static Mil-thrust = 29,120 lb
2 * 25,100 lb static afterburning thrust = 50,200 lb

The full fuel A2A combat loaded-weight (2× AIM-9 + 2× AIM-54 + 3× AIM-7 - most common load during cold-war) of the F-14B was:
Empty weight: 43,735 lb (19,838 kg)
Maximum fuel capacity: 16,200 lb internal fuel (~20,000 lb 2x 267 US gal ext tanks for ferry flights)
Weapon weights:
2 x AIM-9 = 376 lb
3 x AIM-7 Sparrow 1,530 lb
4 x AIM-54 Phoenix = 4,160 lb
Total missile weight = 6,066 lb
Full fuel combat loaded weight: 66,001 lb
Maximum certified takeoff weight: 74,350 lb
Payload remaining = 8,349 lb

Therefore the Power to Weight ratio of an air to air combat loaded F-14B Tomcat in, 1986 was (figures reflect fuel burns change in P:W during flight):

Dry Thrust:

100% fuel  |  75% fuel  |  50% fuel  |  25% fuel
0.441   |  0.470   |  0.503   |  0.551

Afterburning Thrust:

HP: lb 100% fuel  |  HP: lb 75% fuel  |  HP: lb 50% fuel  |  HP: lb 25% fuel
0.761   |  0.810   |  0.867   |  0.950

So at takeoff from the deck the F-14B's immediate combat loaded P:W at full afterburner was only 1 : 0.761

________________

But for a F-35A P:W in 2022, with the Block-4 internal air to air weapons load the P:W picture will be vastly better:
P&W F-135 Engine:
Dry Mil- Thrust = 29,000 lb
A/B Thrust = 43,000 lb
F-35A empty weight = 26,455 lb
Maximum internal fuel capacity = 18,498 lb full fuel
(Now add 2 x 426 US Gal external droptanks = 24,216 lb fuel; or with 4 x 426 US Gal external droptanks = 29,935 lb fuel total, or about 50% more ferry fuel than the F-14B had, and it needs to feed only one high efficiency engine, and has an airframe that has vastly less drag, size and weight.)
Weapons (new replacement A2A weapons are under development right now btw):
6 x AIM-120D = 2,010 lb
So full-fuel air to air combat loaded weight of the F-35A will be = 46,963 lb
Maximum certified takeoff weight of F-35A = 70,000 lb
Payload remaining below MTOW = 23,037 lb

(Note that the F-35A has used almost none of its exceptional weapon and fuel payload at this point.)

Therefore the Power to Weight ratio of an air to air combat loaded F-35A, in 2022, will look like this:

Dry Thrust:

100% fuel  |  75% fuel  |  50% fuel  |  25% fuel

0.618   |  0.685   |  0.769   |  0.908

Afterburning Thrust:

HP: lb 100% fuel  |  HP: lb 75% fuel  |  HP: lb 50% fuel  |  HP: lb 25% fuel

0.916   |  1.016   |  1.140   |  1.347

So at takeoff the F-35A's immediate combat loaded P:W at full afterburner is 1 : 0.916

Take off P:W Ratio Afterburning
F-14B = 1 : 0.761
F-35A = 1 : 0.916

@ 50% fuel (approximately where combat would actually occur) Afterburning
F-14B = 1 : 0.867
F-35A = 1 : 1.140

@ 25% fuel (approximately where combat would be over) Afterburning
F-14B = 1 : 0.950
F-35A = 1 : 1.347

At all times the F-35A will vastly out perform the F-14B in speed/energy recovery, acceleration, range and vertical agility and climb rate. And at no time in the fight does the F-14B even manage to rise above a 1:1 P:W ratio!

So lets just check the numbers at fuel efficient  Dry Mil thrust, as well:

Take off P:W Ratio Dry Mil-Thrust
F-14B = 1 : 0.441
F-35A = 1 : 0.618

@ 50% fuel (approximately where combat would actually occur) Dry Mil-Thrust
F-14B = 1 : 0.503
F-35A = 1 : 0.769

@ 25% fuel (approximately where combat would be over) Dry Mil-Thrust
F-14B = 1: 0.551
F-35A = 1: 0.908

So even on dry thrust in combat loadout an F-35A will vastly out perform, out-maneuver and out-sustain, out-loiter and out-range an F-14B Tomcat - easily!

 

But the fool's insinuation was that the F-35 design is somehow obviously inferior?

 

You can even check this analysis of the F-35A against any of the existing (or recent) 'F' and 'F/A' fighters, and you'll find the same thing, that the F-35A matches or outperforms or is superior to all of them in these areas.  

And he carries on further even after the article I posted above points out the F-35A was designed to achieve 9G turns while carrying both full internal weapons and a full internal fuel load (there is no other fighter on earth than can do that, btw), and that all of the older fighters can not get anywhere near that without suffering structural damage or failure.

Indeed the F-35A has already been tested to 9.99 G, with a structural margin test factor of 1.8;

i.e. 9.99 x 1.8 = 18G ... is the minimum structural failure load point of an F-35A.

Which means it is both very, veeeeerrry strong, and is also capable of extreme turns and agility, and much higher levels of vertical maneuver and turning, in fully combat loaded condition, than an F-16C, F/A-18E, AV-8B or F-15C/E can achieve.

i.e. the F-35A is a superior design to every other 4th gen fighter, by a wide margin.

In fact if you tried a 9G turn in and F-16C/D, with full internal and external fuel, and typical strike combat weapon load on the wings, they would literally crack, buckle and snap off!

But to add to his stupidity further, he then made a red-herring remark about VTOL aircraft, when the F-35B is not a VTOL aircraft at all, it is a STOVL aircraft.

So he can't make any sensible argument to back up its idiotic commentry, and he makes basic mistakes, then ignores all facts completely, does no research, but still wants and expects to be taken 'seriously', as a commenter on the topic, anyway!

Sorry, but this isn't emotion in my replies, nor a 'chip on my shoulder', I'm also not having a bad day, on the contrary, I'm having a great day. The commenter is simply an egregious moron and deserves to be treated like the moron he is, for as long as he insists on being a moron. I'm not interested in tolerating morons like him, it is a mistake which has implications of all public debate, and grasp if basic facts, and undermines all discourse and sensible discussion based in basic verifiable physical realities.

Dumb people need to STFU about topics they are too lazy to reality-check, quantitatively analyse, or do basic research on they also need to get a clue. The 'Moron to Informed ratio', in zh is unfortunately rather dismal and consequently so is the resulting discourse of the zheep moron-osphere. They are commenting in a technical analysis site but apparently have not the straightest ability to do technical analysis and research to save themselves - and you're seriously suggesting I 'tolerate' such morons? And that if I don't, therefore I must be 'emotional', I must have "a chip on my shoulder"? I must be having a bad hair day or something? It's not going to happen, on the contrary, there has been far too much of that utter nonsense going on. Way too much!

This is meat 'n potatoes civil discourse Croc and I'm being very civil here and very accurate in my comments, and anyone who asserts to 'disagree' does not even need to post a thing here in reply, all they need to do (and do first actually) is to get off their lazy self-satisfied opinionated arse and check the numbers in a spreadsheet.

All question of being right or wrong, on the facts, is thus removed.Then you know for yourself. You don;t have to reference anyone else's ignorance, and make it your own.

Now, if so, if the numbers above are in fact correct (and they are), then I suggest people interested in the topic listen to what the actual professional pilots are saying about the F-35's outstanding performance levels and potential, because what they're saying is what the numbers indicate will be the case. So I'm not at all surprised that it is the case.

 

Cheers!   ;- )

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 03:01 | 6538956 delacroix
delacroix's picture

 drives a 2010 ford focus? consider the source

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 03:16 | 6538970 Element
Element's picture

Good point.

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 14:37 | 6539888 Barnaby
Barnaby's picture

See? Why should I engage with you if you're just going to be a classist dick?

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 15:56 | 6540098 Element
Element's picture

Seriously Barny, you can't, you're a dumbshit, stop pretending you have an option, we both know you don't.

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 03:47 | 6538989 Element
Element's picture

BTW, you just turned six again.  :D

 

6 years 4 hours

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 14:35 | 6539885 Barnaby
Barnaby's picture

I am humble, and it was my late father's.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 17:19 | 6537718 Crocodile
Crocodile's picture

Sometimes you just have to accept people for who they think they are.

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 02:45 | 6538884 Element
Element's picture

No you don't. Who the hell told you that? Well they were wrong.

You don't have to accept dumb people, you can either encourage them to not be dumb, and to learn to do their own thinking and research. If they refuse to do that and simply talk crap, you can show them how dumb they in fact are, and ask them to kindly shut the fuck up, until they get a clue.

Why do you feel you must tolerate idiots? If you tolerate idiots all you end up with is idiots - which is fucking intollerable!  lol  :D   ;-)

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 14:38 | 6539892 Barnaby
Barnaby's picture

Only a second-rate draftsman could punctuate so poorly and spell like that. Let me guess: you design paint booths?

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 16:04 | 6540114 Element
Element's picture

Barny, try to focus on the the arguments, research and constructing counterpoint. If you had the knowledge and capacity to reply with compelling prose and details you would, but that is beyond you so you must resort to merely pretending to have something to say. 

You've been called-out and bitch-slapped every which way in front of zh for your stupidity, and what have you got? ... nothing.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 17:16 | 6537681 Crocodile
Crocodile's picture

Just look at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, the contractor, and the issues that have plagued their bottom line because of the F-35.

 

"The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program had to make unexpected changes to its development and test plans over the last year, largely in response to a structural failure on a durability test aircraft, an engine failure, and software challenges. At the same time, engine reliability is poor and has a long way to go to meet program goals....."

http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-15-364

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 18:20 | 6537883 Freddie
Freddie's picture

http://sputniknews.com/military/20150816/1025815446/f-35-us-jet-failure....

'Dead Meat' in the Skies: F-35 Will Be Torn to Pieces by Old Fighter Jets

What a piece of shit the F-35 is.  It just another example how corrupt the USA is, the defense contractors and The Pentagram.

Do not send your kids to go die for The Pentagram, Soros and Zuckerberg.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 18:52 | 6537962 alphahammer
alphahammer's picture

 

EVERY genration of fighter goes through these growth problems-- including the gen5 Russian planes. Do some research.

BTW. The plane rocks.

---

F-35 Unscathed by Hostile Fire in Green Flag

Jun 18, 2015 Amy Butler | Aviation Week & Space Technology

Not a single F-35 was “shot down” during the joint-force Green Flag exercises testing the jet and its pilots’ prowess operating it in a contested air-support role in the Western U.S. this month, according to U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Cameron Dadgar, head of the exercise and leader of the 549th Combat Training Sqdn. at Nellis AFB, Nevada. This is notable because A-10s and F-16s were defeated in the same conditions, operating in an environment with hostile aircraft and ...

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 20:53 | 6538249 Freddie
Freddie's picture

F-35 is total junk. You mentioned the A-10 and F-16 which Pierre Sprey was involved in along with Colonel John Boyd and Col. Eeverest Riccioni.  Sprey has said multiple times that the F-35 is junk, stealth is a fraud and the F-35 could be easily defeated by a Mig-21.   

 

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 01:44 | 6538887 Element
Element's picture

Here's one right here!

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 19:09 | 6537990 Barnaby
Barnaby's picture

I was actually involved in the program.

Never have more incompetent men moved mice around a computer screen more aimlessly. Shortly thereafter, Angry Birds was invented so every quonset hut at Wright-Pat was a flurry of flicking and flinging.

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 01:47 | 6538890 Element
Element's picture

BWAAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!

Man, you are such a dishonest douche!  You plainly do not know a damned thing about it, you moron.

hahahaha!  .... good grief!

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 14:29 | 6539872 Barnaby
Barnaby's picture

Heh. I clearly do. Methinks the poseur doth protest too much.

JSF has always been a dog. And it always will be, and my hope is more countries drop out of purchase orders for these dangerous things. Talk about attrition, if you're honest to the debate. Why have so many purchasers reneged on this flying heap?

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 17:29 | 6540149 Element
Element's picture

hahahaahah!!!

Um ... none, you fucking idiot ...hahaha! ... you indeed are a moron barny!  

Not one country that has placed an F-35 order and cancelled their order!  Not one!  :D 

In fact, I think all of them have now greatly expanded their orders at this point and the program is about to enter a higher rate of production as a result from 40 to 120 air frames per year to full rate production pending at buy Lot 12 of ~160 per year over about the next 30 years .

But you have no clue whatsoever about this, do you? You're not just a little bit out of the loop on this, you actually have not the faintest fucking clue about it! You're a total fraud, an obvious faker a bullshit artiste, and a bloody stupid little arse for trying that on in here sport. Can you really be that stupid?!

What astonishes me is you actually believed there have been order cancellations, but you didn't even bother to check this first to see if there were any orders placed that have been cancelled!  hahaha!  Unbelievable!  :D

So ... you just figured you could wing it with bullshit, huh?

But the sad truth is you clearly don't possess the capacity to do the most basic reality-checking before jamming your foot down your gob!  LOL hahaha

You are a LAZY brainless utter fucking dumbshit, dear Barnaby!   LOL  :D

I'll have to keep this page as it's a particularly vivid example of a lazy lying stupid moron at full tilt, so thanks for the input!  :D

I did your homework (took me ~10 seconds):

"In 2010, the Dutch parliament voted to cancel its order for the first test series. Because there was only a caretaker government at that time, Defence Minister Van Middelkoop stated he can and will not honor the wishes of the parliament, but that the next government should decide on the issue. The next defence Minister Hans Hillen planned to continue the purchase in the face of budget cuts that will see thousands of defense employees go as well as the sell off of Dutch military aircraft and ships, in order to maintain Dutch industrial participation in the F-35 program. On 20 April 2011 the newly elected Dutch parliament reversed the vote by its predecessor and voted to purchase a second test F-35."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II_procurement

 

Not one country has cancelled an F-35 order.

Barny claims: - "I was actually involved in the program."

Seriously dude, you really want to lie like that?  hahahahahahhaah!  unreal  :D

 

PS:  I'll tell you right up front barny, I have no particular expertise in the field of fighter jets and their producers (other than my own private GA flying experiences) but I have a knack for analysis and getting to the heart of things. I've always had this trait/talent. I can work technical stuff out no one else can, I know why things work and why they don't. This trait freaks some people out, so they assume I have some sort of connection to intel sources or corporations or something. No, I don't. I find things out, easily, and that makes people nervous, as they would rather I didn't know many things I know about. But they can't stop me from finding out. And the infuriating thing is I can do it from almost solely open sources. So almost all of the things I learn I don't ever mention. And I certainly wouldn't ever discuss them in detail in a place like zh! But for instance I know things like exactly how the F-35s uninterruptible secure comms system works and why it works. But I wouldn't dream of talking about the details to anyone. Nor would I ever leave hints of how it works. But I figure that if I can work this stuff out easily then others can too, and they will. But I see no reason to make it easy for them to figure it out. I don't figure stuff out to be malicious, nor am I overly curious. I just do it because that's how I'm wired. This is how I am. I'm supposed to be this, or else it would not be a natural skill set and capacity. So I just do it. As a result I can run rings around a guy like you without even trying, so you have no chance to play games like that. I play dumb a lot because if I don't it tends to freak people out a bit too much. The problem is though, I really detest morons, especially lying deceitful morons. So to me it's really deplorable to see a bloke like you lie like that. What the hell are you thinking fool? Knock it off already, you are simply pathetic. What the hell is wrong with telling the truth? Or with the facts being the actual facts, not requiring edition, just a clear discussion? There is something wrong with you Barny, you need to sort it out, not for others sake or needs, just so you will fucking work properly, you dumb bastard. Don't you realize you can fundamentally work better, not impair yourself if you stop doing that? Why don't you try it? I'll refrain from kicking your arse further, it's just not going to help you sort it out. Just wake up to yourself.

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 03:30 | 6538948 Element
Element's picture

Yes that is why the developers do extensive expensive flight tests and in-service development at Low Rate Initial Production (LIRP) to find such things, as it's much cheaper to find and fix with a small initial fleet. this is what all modern fighter programs do.

They in fact never end their development, it is continuous over 30 to 40 years of operation. And structural upgrades also don't stop occuring to operational fighters.

And the engine support bulkhead was problem on a small subset of that small LIRP fleet, the B model, and it has been rectified and changed already. That is why it is done that way.

But you're now trying to contrive that highly successful process of detection and rectification in developmental LIRP as an argument for not building any new fighters at all!

That is the implication of your point you know?

Which is what it is - mate. 

 

Careful you don't step in it.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 20:11 | 6538152 Jack Oliver
Jack Oliver's picture

Idiot - Who do you work for ? Lockheed Martin ? You should check out the Donald Cook incident !

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 02:56 | 6538893 Element
Element's picture

And here's another one!

History
Member for
7 weeks 1 day

________

A shiny new moron! ... and it still has that new moron smell! ...

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 14:32 | 6539880 Barnaby
Barnaby's picture

I'm guessing a subcontractor for Northrop. They've always been substandard. But hey, what else is there to do in Palmdale other than watch your trailer rust?

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 16:41 | 6540189 Element
Element's picture

haha ... you'd know about rusting trailer parks.

My home overlooks the Coral Sea.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 14:10 | 6536835 Yttrium Gold Ni...
Yttrium Gold Nitrogen's picture

Totally lost in translation. Here's the original text (in Russian). Online translator does a pretty good job, here's the relevant passage.

When our American friends have expressed concern about the actions of Russia in Europe and in other parts of the world, we repeatedly reminded them that between Russia and the United States and Russia and NATO existed for a very good and stable, trusted channels of dialogue between the military departments. Russian-American and Russian-NATO channels were blocked and frozen our American colleagues. We always advocate that the military talked among themselves professionally. They well understand each other. This is important to avoid undesirable and unintended incidents that had a special theme in the Council Russia-NATO. Now, on the initiative of the American side everything is closed. Secretary of state John Kerry. Kerry has repeatedly told me that Washington is interested in thawing these channels. If so, then you are welcome.

You're, indeed, welcome.

Tell me about bloat, whet Reuters can't hire a normal translator for the job. On the other side, it was maybe intentional.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 14:58 | 6537127 dustyfin
dustyfin's picture

I think we can safely understand that Reuters can afford to hire decent translators. This was an editorial choice, a choice to mislead millions of people.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 20:04 | 6538137 Flagit
Flagit's picture

 

Have to stay in line with the Pentagon's desire to have Russia seen as a threat.

 

Russia to US: talk to us on Syria or risk 'unintended incidents'
Reuters - 1 hour ago

In the latest reports, two Western officials and a Russian source told Reuters Moscow is ...

 

The constant word twisting never stops.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 14:10 | 6536875 jacship
jacship's picture

BOLDER DAESH

 

WHO'S GOT A PHONE

&

A PEN

Do you want to go down in history, as the President that started WW3

because if you do

there will be none left

to read it.

 

this is not your fathers socialism

 

 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 14:16 | 6536906 theyjustcantstop
theyjustcantstop's picture

have china agree with afganistan, iran, Iraq, maybe Pakistan to build aiib financed pipeline's, make the tigres river the new dmz, then start the shit show.

 

 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 14:47 | 6537058 Element
Element's picture

 

 

“It's a colossal mistake that the US-led [anti-ISIS] coalition never considered interaction with Syria, not even information exchange,” Lavrov said. “I cannot comprehend this logic, or rather absolute lack of logic.”

Agree with Lavrov on this, Washington's position regarding the attack on and destruction of Syria itself, by rebels, who absolutely refuse to ever make peace, is as absurd as it is opportunistic and hypocritical.

The only possible reason for it can be to destroy Assad and thus Iran and Hezbollah nexus for Israel. No one in the West seem to give a toss for the people in Damascus and other Government run areas who have been fighting to keep the mass butchers at bay all this time.

The West's lack of support for protecting the people fighting to hold Syria together, whether Assad is involved as head of government, or not, is a disgrace. There is no way in the world Assad is such a devil that the people of Syrai should be treated like devils as well. Lavrov is right, “I cannot comprehend this logic, or rather absolute lack of logic.”

If there are issues with Iran and Syria and Hezbollah, then the west should deal with them directly, cooperate, and put an end to this war, get rid of ISIS sooner. Save more people, stabilize Syria.

But you can bet the Israel lobby will gee-up the Repubs to play politics while tens of thousands more Syrians are brutally murdered and another trillion dollars are wasted on a conflict no one but Israel and Turkey seems to want.

Iran and Russia and the West can end this thing far quicker if the cooperate and build the good will needed for actual peace and a rapid reduction in militia extremism within the region.

Oh, yeah, I forgot, all the wieners in Washington who like dropping bombs on people, will want to beat their chests raw, for their election 'choice' product-differentiation blah-blah, while people of Syria suffer and die and horribly.

Well who wants that?

 

Definitely not the US voters!

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 14:57 | 6537113 Anunnaki
Anunnaki's picture

Great comment. Very insightful. Thanks

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:13 | 6537183 Max Steel
Max Steel's picture

Bloke making sense finally .

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:23 | 6537217 Element
Element's picture

I've been making sense all along, you just didn't like it when I pointed out what was wrong with the Russian positions, leadership and propaganda as well.  I'm not supporting any side you see.

But you do.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:41 | 6537323 Barnaby
Barnaby's picture

Too smug.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:57 | 6537391 Element
Element's picture

Unable to make an argument.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 17:05 | 6537665 Crocodile
Crocodile's picture

No need to; we are all expressing opinions; hopefully based on some level of knowledge and understanding, which is wisdom..cheers!!

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 01:52 | 6538897 Element
Element's picture

And hopefully some physical and hopefully testable facts. I'm not into this whole opinion-based imaginary fiction gig, I don't see the point of humans wasting perfectly good brains on it.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 19:10 | 6537997 Barnaby
Barnaby's picture

Slightly less smug but too smug for a cogent response.

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 01:52 | 6538899 Element
Element's picture

You should just shut up now.

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 03:36 | 6538981 Max Steel
Max Steel's picture

No you dont

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 03:36 | 6538982 Max Steel
Max Steel's picture

No you dont

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:13 | 6537184 Max Steel
Max Steel's picture

Bloke making sense finally .

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 14:56 | 6537109 Anunnaki
Anunnaki's picture

America will have to back down. You don't want to see Russian missiles make short work of mediocre American jets. Easy to bomb towel heads living in caves. 

Aftter the first of these" accidental" exchanges". you will see missile orders for Russia skyrocket and jet orders cancelled for America

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 16:13 | 6537454 optimator
optimator's picture

Lots of countries looking for an excuse to get out of their F-35 contracts anyway.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 17:45 | 6537799 J Jason Djfmam
J Jason Djfmam's picture

It will not be mediocre American fighters shot down by Russian misslies.

It will be jetliners full of "innocent civilians" shot down by Russian missiles.

 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 20:09 | 6538145 Jack Oliver
Jack Oliver's picture

Idiot - Your stupidy knows no bounds !

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 04:24 | 6539003 bid the soldier...
bid the soldiers shoot's picture

surely you're being sarcastic and referring to the blame for MH17, falsely put on Russia.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:26 | 6537245 begintowin
begintowin's picture

The author of the article wrote, "And on Friday, Lavrov took it up a notch with a series of very serious-sounding (albeit hilariously overstated, we hope) soundbites delivered at a news conference in Russia."

This is something the western powers need to clearly understand. The Russian leadership does not overstate or bluff as it is not in their culture to do so.

When President Putin through his foreign minister Mr. lavrov issues a directive, you can be assured that what is said to happen will happen. End of story.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:40 | 6537320 besnook
besnook's picture

reminds me of krushchev screaming about how the ussr would crush the usa. looks like he might have another chance to bang his shoe on the podium in celebration.

you are right. russian foreign policy was always pretty stright forward.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 17:02 | 6537644 Crocodile
Crocodile's picture

Except that Putin in not Nikita Khrushchev and while we have been investing in, well not much, Russia and China have been investing in tangibles (real stuff).  When the USSA has come down to nothing but bullying; you know there  is a level of desperation.  Look at the disintegration of the people, and the nation.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 19:30 | 6538057 no1ninja
no1ninja's picture

LOL, the only thing Putin has been investing is his oligarch's masters bank accounts.

 

Here is his battleship unable to fire a simple missle in demonstrations. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qyz_pHUnkg 

 

 

More planes have crashed in the last year than in any time in Russian history.... it seems that upkeep is important, and that money is reserved for the backpockets of Putin and his insiders.   

 

If you are using Russian equipment be prepared for it to back fire, or blow up in your hands... very little money goes to testing. 

 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 21:29 | 6538380 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

bored

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 21:28 | 6538372 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

Kruschev was during Soviet USSR

Kruschev was a Ukrainian national. Breznev also.

before that from 1917 thru Stalin was never Russians in control

Soviet was never a Russian construct

Soviet is defunct   

 

 

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 13:48 | 6539777 o r c k
o r c k's picture

N.K.-"We will bury you".  Source of the phrase "can you dig it?"

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 02:04 | 6538908 Victor von Doom
Victor von Doom's picture

"This is something the western powers need to clearly understand. The Russian leadership does not overstate or bluff as it is not in their culture to do so."

Unfortunately the US "leadership" will be lucky to clearly understand anything as overstating and bluffing is not only in their culture, but a well developed pathological disease.

"My greatest flaw. I surround myself with idiots."

- Victor von Doom

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 20:27 | 6540711 MSimon
MSimon's picture

This is something the western powers need to clearly understand. The Russian leadership does not overstate or bluff as it is not in their culture to do so.

 

Potemkin Village much?

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:36 | 6537289 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

Pootin lovers want a war with the US so bad they can't stand it. Be careful what you wish for kids.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 16:57 | 6537626 Crocodile
Crocodile's picture

Hello troll; from whom do you receive your paycheck?

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 19:43 | 6538094 no1ninja
no1ninja's picture

Hi Ruski, 

 

How is the troll mill... go collect those rubbles and trade them for oh wait.... no one wants rubbles.   Trade them for inferior Russian and Chinese products, because you great leader does not feel you should be buyin anything from the west.  Meanwhile he is driven around in a mercedes.  

 

Russians have to be the dumbest people on earth.   look at me, I go down on Putin while him and his friends rob my country.  RUSKI STRONK!

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 15:39 | 6537315 Zero-Hegemon
Zero-Hegemon's picture

Oh dear, the day the US wakes up to find that it's not the only player in the great imperialist game... tut tut.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 17:47 | 6537807 J Jason Djfmam
J Jason Djfmam's picture

The U.S. has learned not to fight a war that they can be seen as losing.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 16:56 | 6537622 Crocodile
Crocodile's picture

Sad but true, but in a world of people that believe critical thinking is based on emotion and sound bites...most will "bite into it".  This is very dangerous.  We are all guilty of feeding these beasts because we buy their "stuff".

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 04:10 | 6538913 Victor von Doom
Victor von Doom's picture

I''ll accept that critique, so long as you quantify the "we" as the collective fuckwitts out there - excluding myself and fellow enlightened ZHs.

"My greatest flaw. I surround myself with idiots."

- Victor von Doom

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 16:04 | 6537417 scatha
scatha's picture

ZH should drop this anti-Russian propaganda we know from the Ukrainian war as well as stop this shameful exploitation of the refugees problem that was dramatic for over 4 years now and nobody gave a shit about it before. No stealth invasion of Syria by little green peoples from Moscow either. It's ridiculous.

Here I found serious analysis of what's going on in Syria and Ukraine no BS.

https://contrarianopinion.wordpress.com/syrian-war-update/

and 

https://contrarianopinion.wordpress.com/ukrainian-war-update/

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 16:43 | 6537570 Velo Puck
Velo Puck's picture

Two years ago Senator McCain was in Syria shaking hands with the leaders of ISIS anfter my USA tax dollars were siphoned off to give these psychos some death machines (weapons). Thirty years ago Rumsfeld was in Iraq shaking Saddam's hands after giving him chemical weapons and CIA satellite intel on where to drop them on Persians. Thirty-six years ago Brzezinski, who is Obama's puppetmaster, was in Afghanistan giving al Qaeda weapons to fight the USSR occupation.

Why the fuck can't the USA simply operate like Switzerland? Jefferson said it best, "Commerce with all nations and allegiance with none."

Vote Libertarian or NOTHING will ever change with the two party status quo.

 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 20:34 | 6538210 ozzzzo
ozzzzo's picture

Voting only lends undeserved legitimacy to the system.

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 00:15 | 6538612 Pancho de Villa
Pancho de Villa's picture

Don't you know that a Long time ago they discovered that War is the Most Profitable Enterprise ever invented by Man? The Elites do what they have Always done. Haven't you heard of the Carlyle Group?

 

Jefferson was an Exceptional man! People back then had no TV's to distract and Lie to them. Dr. Ron Paul had Very similar ideas and spoke Very Highly about Jefferson and his cohorts! Don't you remember how the TV Peoples Ridiculed and Lied about him? They made it sound like voting for him was "Dangerous" and all the people believed those cheap Lying Bastards like Brian Williams! I got my Citizenship from your President Calvin Cooldge, and about 80 years later I voted for Dr. Ron Paul, but you know where That went...

 

Just let me know if you decide you need a Revolution! I have a very good resume!

 

 

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 02:15 | 6538916 Victor von Doom
Victor von Doom's picture

Voting is irrelevant crap no matter who you vote for. What good do you seriously think you are going to acheive by scribling crap on paper? Or having a machine punch a hole in one?

You want to have actual impact on the world? Then do something in the physical realm.

Actions speak louder than words. Vote with your wallets, your feet and your arms. A simple truth the West (meaning the Western common folk) need to learn or relearn.

"My greatest flaw. I surround myself with idiots."

Victor von Doom

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 13:09 | 6539667 Pancho de Villa
Pancho de Villa's picture

If you don't think I've done anything "in the physical realm" just look up Ejercito Del Norte, Sr. Doom!

 

Have You ever led Troops in a Revolution?

Thu, 09/17/2015 - 15:17 | 6561582 Victor von Doom
Victor von Doom's picture

No need Pancho. I just issue orders from my castle in Latveria.

But since you're aware of the impact actions have I'll take it you concur.

"My greatest flaw. I surround myself with idiots."

- Victor von Doom

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 16:46 | 6537585 Crocodile
Crocodile's picture

“Kerry was also pushing the very strange idea that supporting Bashar Assad in his anti-terror fight only strengthens the positions of ISIS, because the sponsors (US & NATO) of ISIS would pump even more arms and money into it,” Lavrov said.

----------------

Well of course that is true; we will need additional funding & training & supplies for ISIS and maybe send more mercenaries into the battle to achieve our only goal; to overthrown our friend Assad, who was duly elected.  But being in a fascist state, the USSA, we can't have democracy.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 17:03 | 6537660 Atticus Finch
Atticus Finch's picture

How many billions has the US paid ISIS?

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 17:22 | 6537729 Crocodile
Crocodile's picture
Obama vows to speed up ‘training ISIL’

http://www.rt.com/usa/272470-obama-training-isis-slip/

 

Where the Sunnis dominate, we train and fund the Shiites and where the Shiites dominate, we fund & train the Sunnis...we cause chaos and we are paying the price and those in control will live an eternity, outside of time, in a literal living hell.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 18:21 | 6537886 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

Yeah  but it's no problem  -we can print (or steal from the average schmuck American) all we want.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 17:19 | 6537712 NubianSundance
NubianSundance's picture

I dont know if this has already been posted but :

BERLIN - Germany would welcome more Russian engagement in the fight against ISIS, a foreign ministry spokesman said on Friday. "I think we would welcome the Russian Federation and the Russian president ... getting actively involved in the fight against ISIS given the dangers arising from Islamist terrrorism," spokesman Martin Schaefer said at a regular government news conference in Berlin.

Strange times, maybe Berlin doesn't love Washington so much anymore.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 22:41 | 6538602 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

The Germans are still waiting on their gold.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 17:27 | 6537741 heywood2
heywood2's picture

When I was a kid,I used to listen to radio Moscow on the shortwave. It was always good for an unitentional laugh, but of course I couldn't respond.

But now, thanks to the miracle of the internet, I can not only get a giggle from Russian propaganda, I can mess with it in real time.

Woohoo!

 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 17:34 | 6537767 Badsamm
Badsamm's picture

What do you do with the U.S. propaganda?
I hope you are better at chess than Obama is at checkers.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 18:16 | 6537878 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

You're only making a fool of yourself -though you are probably a paid troll. How's your boy Lindsey graham doing in the presidential race? Any chance Sheldon Adelson and Singer will select him to get the nomination?

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 18:24 | 6537894 Freddie
Freddie's picture

You are a moron.  The Russia of todya is not the Bolshevik USSR created by New York City, London and German non-Christians with dual names and dual citizenships who helped murder 20 million Christian Russians.

Russia had been a christian nation for 1000 years before the Bolsheviks showed up and under Putin, russia is a Christian nation again.  So go F yourself.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 19:24 | 6538045 no1ninja
no1ninja's picture

Hey Ruski, I have bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. 

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 19:19 | 6538016 ultramaroon
ultramaroon's picture
Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!